they've been playing on fear. playing on fear in order to try to score political points or to advance their campaigns. it's irresponsible and contrary to who we are. it needs to stop because the world is watching. >> the president lives in a fantasy world. >> i think he's a threat to our country. >> i encourage you mr. president come back and insult me to my face. >> good morning. it's thursday, november 19th. we've got a lot to talk about today. with us on set washington anchor for bbc world news america and npr senior analyst cokey rob erpts. nbc news chief pentagon correspondent. boy, we have an awful lot to be

talking about today not just in domestic politics but international politics and possible alliance between russia and france and the united states. a lot of unease at the pentagon we're going to be talking about soon and new political polls that will have people in washington scratching their heads. let's start with the latest. >> let's get the latest on the investigation and the news on the hunt for the terrorist in europe. belgium police is searching for french terror and suspect muhammad. nbc news confirms that belgium police have launched six new raids this morning in direct connection with the raid friday. authorities were let to the apartment while tracking a woman now believed to be the first

suicide bomber affiliated with isis and police fired 5,000 rounds in one hour during the clash. we know that the suspected master mind wasn't among those people arrested yesterday but was he among the dead? let's bring in nbc news chris jansing whose been covering the breaking news from paris. chris, what more do we know about whether he was in the building at all and if so, whether he was killed? >> reporter: no confirmation from authorities, but i will tell you dna testing is being done so that answer is coming. there are reports in media here in europe that they do have a dna sample so the question is how long will it take to match it. meantime, while they're doing those raids in belgium there's another key player who hasn't got as much aintention. the frenchman called the bomb

maker in any terrorist organization, the bomb maker is a critical link. there's a feeling they can always recruit others who are willing to die for the cause. they again post such a big threat yesterday as a huge rage is going down north of where i am here. all that going on simultaneously. the question is being asked how safe are we. brus ls has new security measures throughout the country and calling to double their security budget more than 400,000 u.s. dollars. 447 u.s. dollars i think is the money they're allotting in

belgium and here we continue to see more signs and security as people come and tell us about going into open places that use to be open two key sites where they have possible threats one at the cathedral and the other at the famous opera house. >> okay. thanks very much. there's a lot we don't know still. what we do realize this was extensive planning. >> a lot we don't know. david, let me ask you, you flip through the channels last night and read the newspapers but the reporting has all the ambiguity

of marco rubio position paper on abortion. you just can't sore through it. is there a reason why the entail agencies wouldn't want to say we didn't get him. >> i honestly think this is more about reporting than intelligence. we are going on fragmentary bits of informs at a time when the authorities don't want to tell us everything. the washington post had two sources yesterday that said yes, he was among those killed in the siege and we're waiting to find confirmation on that now. reporting is always somewhat an ambiguous thing. for your viewers what's striking is the french president said they are going to war. the idea of a seven hour siege, a one hour fire fight in a suburb just outside of central paris of this kind of carnage and the french not knowing

where's the bomb maker, the person who could do it again and again making these bombs. where are the other, where are the people in this network? they obviously still have very fragmentary intelligence. when they say they're going to war, we have to take that serious. >> yesterday we went to the pentagon and interviewed ash carter, the first question i asked was do you agree with the french president hollande we are at war and he said yes, we are at war and made it very clear and sounded more like hollande than obama. i found that fascinating. there's a disconnect in the pentagon from what i've heard and i'm sure you've heard the same as well. there's a disconnect between what the president has planned in the last several months and what the pentagon believes will be required to strike back at isis. >> it's a little bit surprising because somebody who had a timid

entree into the pentagon for weeks and weeks, lately he's been the most aggressive in the administration in talking about what it's going to take to not only stop isis but ultimately defeat them which is a target well off years from now. for example, a few weeks ago when there was an operation in which surprisingly u.s. operations took part in along with kurds and northern iraq and you had that one special operator killed in the effort it was carter who was first in the administration to say yes, he was in combat and oh, by the way, we're going to do this again. it seemed to fly in the face of the president's mandate that there will be no boots on the ground. they still insist that. it's a very thin kind of denial because there have been, will be

u.s. military in combat. not brigades charging up the hill but small pocket forces. the president did approve 50 special operation forces inside syria. they will only go in and spend two or three weeks and come back out presumably but it's the first step. it's the toe in the water. >> also, what happened is this worked when those special operation forces went in with the kurds. it worked and it does tell you something about if we are on the ground what a difference it makes. >> and quiet a divide. another divide between the white house and the pentagon has to do with russia and dealing with rush russia. not excited about any alliance in russia. >> despite hearing what you're hearing by the republican candidates. moscow has confirmed they're planning a joint operation to

fight in syria. >> the french president hollande has called on world leaders to unite on the fight against isis but president obama isn't ready to agree until putin removes. >> the problem has been in their initial military encouragement to syria, they've been more focussed on propping up mr. isad and the opposition as opposed to targeting those folks who threaten us, europe and russia as well.

>> i think the president still hope that the syrian situation will go away and even this week bd saying it's unlikely isis can strike america. no terror experts will make that statement. he is charting his own path and the rest of the administration understands that he may be saying things for political purposes. >> our special forces have been conducting a much more aggressive secret direct action campaign. that means targeting and taking out isis operations planners. i put a story up on the

washington post site last night saying that at least 50 of these people who were in contact with long wolfes, volunteers, potential operatives would strike u.s. targets either in this country or around the world have been killed by drones that have been sent up by special forces over the last several months. that's a more aggressive plan than we knew about and authorized by the white house. while i agree it's true, president obama would prefer a diplomatic presence in syria, it is also true in terms of actually going after the people who would kill you and me here in america, there's been a more active, more aggressive program than we knew. >> you have, jim, obviously a lot of people inside the pentagon resistant to working with russia against isis. >> oh, absolutely, from the very beginning. the only thing that's working and the only thing the u.s. military wants to do is keep

this line of communication open to deconflict the air space. if russians are flying the u.s. avoids it. that's worked so far. they've used it once when the russians first started their air strikes against the rebel forces there in raqqah. they are bound and determined not to link arm and arm with the russians and to the point where they would share intelligence, for example. they're not going to do that. and quiet frankly, this deconflicting the air space really isn't as much required as you might think because u.s. conducts their air strikes at night and the russians conduct theirs during the day. >> which leads to something else. that is the president can sit back and put special ops quietly on the ground, use drone attacks and let putin do his dirty work for him. putin not concerned about

civilian deaths. not concerned about the war and could turn raqqah into a parking lot and barack obama could sit there and wash his hands of it all. >> except for the person of isad. >> isn't the compromise that's going to come is isad is able to leave and be with snoeden somewhere in russia and somebody acceptable to both russia and to a lesser degree america takes its place.

it's my understanding these negotiations kerry has been pushing so hard is making progress. >> and you say the russians are saying they are not wedded to this guilt or innocence. >> they say privately they're not wedded to this guy in terms of actual visual signs. they've been saying do something about it. >> is it not about showing strengt strength? >> putin doesn't want to come across weak fblt it's attractive

to think let's turn raqqah into a parking lot. the problem is unless you intend to pave it, what's going to happen? how do you stabilize that area? that's the puzzle u.s., france and russia need to be thinking about. how do you fill the vacuum with stability? how do you have something different there. >> because we took, look, in 2007 we took out al qaeda and iraq and it morphed a few years later into isis. >> it's really not clear what's left in raqqah.

>> in 2009 it was taken care of. the question we have to ask as americans and i didn't want a permanent american force there at the time more than most americans did but i think lindsey graham and john mccain were the only two that did. at some point we have to ask are 10,000, 20,000 american troops worth stability across europe and the middle east and we may have to make the same calculation. it's a lot of places in the world. >> what's what we're going to have to realize.

>> that many change radically if there's an attack on american soil. >> all right. still ahead on morning joe, our exclusive interview with defense secretary ashton carter. he takes us inside the pentagon. also, a bipartisan push in the senate to have a series debate about sigh sis. we have senators tim cane and jeff flate with us. we're going to get to republican candidates attacking barack obama, barack obama attacking back, john kerry holding a seminar for justifications. much to sort through when we return. some cash back cards love to overcomplicate things. like limiting where you earn bonus cash back. why put up with that? but the quicksilver card from capital one likes to keep it simple. real simple. i'm talking easy like-a- walk-in-the-park,

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there's something different. i think everybody would feel that. there's a sort of particularized focus and perhaps even a legitimacy in terms of, not

legitimacy, but a rational you can attach yourself to somehow and say okay, they're angry but this or thoracic outlat. >> he needs to get some sleep and shut up. for the secretary of the united states to stand up and say there's some rational that happened in january. these are the weak signals this administration sends that helps make the american people think no one's watching the store. this is the same president sitting around saying somehow it's everyone else's fault.

men, women and children and such atrosties can never be rationalized and we can never allow them to be rationalized. there's no excuse. they have to be stopped. they said they've never seen administration mishandle something on an international level as badly as the president and the secretary of state did over two days with the president delivering what.

kerry basically said the same thing, go to sleep. how do you mishandle something so badly it's so simple. >> he was trying to make a point not completely crazy. there was an upset over specific cartoon with charlie.

>> when you have republican candidates sitting at 2% in national polls saying things that are irritating you, you can let it go. what signal does it send to the french when the french president an act of war and the president calls it a set back. >> that was startling. some people at the pentagon were set back by the president. i think the alliance between france and the united states is pretty strong at this point. i think some at the pentagon believe this. the presidents focus is still on ending two wars. he's had to keep 9,800 troops in

afghanistan until the end of his term. he wanted all of them out and now he's introducing some small number of forces back in iraq. i think that really. >> that is his obsession. to held with the facts on the ground. his obsession is to say i ended two wars, put that in my presidential library. doesn't matter what happened. >> ash carter set down with us inside the pentagon. he calls for a stronger response from the obama administration. >> how can you assure the american public there is indeed

a strategy and the leadership roll america is taking fully addresses the threat it poses? >> we have to defeat isil. we will defeat circumstancisil. it is something that must be defeated. >> so you agree with the french president we're at war. >> yeah. i think he's very well. i'm glad they galvanized in joaning the fight now. we're starting to fuel convoys

now. we're running raids reich the one that got. >> we hear complaints from inside the pentagon that yes, there's 8,000 being flown but the rules of engagement are so tight and restrictive that two-thirds of those planes are coming back without using ordnances. i know you've heard the complaints. are the rules of engagement being loosened a bit. >> we're prepared to do that. we reviewed them all the time. if you look at the data, the thing that most enhances the impact of the air campaign is better and better intelligence. >> we're prepared to change the engagement. we've changed tactics as we just did in the case of the fuel

trucks. >> can you explain that? can you explain? there had been hesitation to go after the fuel trucks. why do you change rules of engagement? again, this happened before paris. >> it did happen before paris. the oil infrastructure is something that the civilian population benefits from as well when you want to punish people. this first of all, gets to intelligence and identify that part of the energy infrastructure. i hope now as a consequence of the terror attacks france is

indicating willingness to do more and the european countries do more than so far. >> we want to talk about the force of the future. tell us what you invision and what needs to be changed. we're going to be around for a long time. today i have the finest fighting force the world has ever known. that's what i've been given by my predecessors and what i need to do is make sure we leave a force to find the future. people think of our technology. that's important too.

people like to make a difference and want to do something of consequence. i like to get them in just for a while to work on one project, bring their skills in for a time so that there are ways that people can get in and contribute. the other way around also is off ramps to further education and stay in touch with skills. they want to get families and

get a degree and so forth. if we don't keep up with the times and understand how people are changing and how thecht a different kind of career, we're not going to have the best in the future. >> it's fascinating when i was in law school, i remember going to a recruiter saying listen, i love a law group and i want to go in and serve my country for a couple of years. there's a commitment and of course, the military much better off not getting me in there. there are some people who might want to give two years. >> many people can come in for a while and make a real contribution. particular technological skills. we want top ceos to come in like dave pack ard who is a predecessor of mine when i was deputy of hewitt-packard who came in and enriched this place.

a lot more on the battle against terrorism in the next hour with the secretary. you talked about dollar a year men. >> people who made a lot of money and know how to run businesses and get things done, the idea of them coming to work for the united states government at a time of need just as people did in world war ii, that's great. >> were you surprised with how blunt he was? >> i thought that interview was unusually direct both for him and this administration. you asked him are we at war and he says yes, we are at war. he was clear about what needs to be done about the commitment, about the, you have a sense looking at him he understands the path forward in a way that you don't always feel listening to the president. i thought it was an important interview. >> nick, debrief us on what you

heard. >> the question being asked and you raised it, david raised it a minute ago, why didn't the u.s. attack those fuel tanker trucks much earlier. the explanation we get and as a matter of fact the operation backs it up is that one of the concerns was that those were innocent civilians driving those trucks. afterall, if you're not going to drive a truck for isis, you're going to wipe your head off. what choice do you have? there were 116 trucks and what they did is dropped pamphlets, fliers down that essentially said we're about to destroy the trucks. run now or you'll die and they did and then they took out the

trucks. >> do you buy that argument? >> quiet frankly, i do. it's one of the restrictions they have in launching air strikes. i don't hear a single general or admiral complain about it. >> i bet those leaflets they drop, many of them were in turkish too. a little secret is that it's the turks who have been working with isis who do the smuggling of oil. it's been benefitting them. >> that's the big fear too you mentioned it very briefly about the russian air strikes. they are indiscriminate. they have no qualms about wiping out an entire hospital. putin ver dirty work going after isis more aggressively and

then say our hands are clean. so anyway. a lot to untangle in our next hour we're talking to the defense secretary about the plan to cooperate with russia in the fight against isis and why the defense department is a bit weary of that. still ahead the defense secretary may say we're at war with isis. what about congress? senators join us for the major push to get their colleagues to at least debate the important issue. constipated?

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bombing the hell out of isis was a new radio add from trump that began airing yesterday. a new national poll in the republican presidential race has just came out this hour and donald trump maintains his lead over the field. 24% followed by ben carson. 12% senator marco rubio the other candidate to score in double digits. ted cruz risen to fourth place and jeb bush in fifth place. most state polls released yesterday donald trump has commanding leads and a different runner up.

rubio is 18% and ben carson 11% and chris christie in fourth place. >> then cokey, we had two new hampshire polls, if we can put them up. obviously, it's the first in the nation where, marco is losing to donald trump in marco's own state by 18 points. and jeb bush extraordinarily poplar governor losing by what?

27 points. >> yeah. >> donald truch dominating across america. >> well, he's very lucky, the french situation happened the day it happened because the night before he had this 95 minute rant in iowa where he did not look glued down at all. >> the belt buckle rant. >> exactly. it would have been all the news the next day but then paris happened. so now he is in a position where he sounds tough and strong which is of course what he's been sounding all along. in a moment people are listening to that. now, i wonder though if in the end this terrorist attack makes people sit back and think maybe we actually do need a grown up and not somebody whose just ranting. >> that's what you might think, right. when donald trump says we're going to bomb the hell out of isis, as jim pointed out

earlier, there's not a lot to bomb. >> i brought up ronald reagan yesterd yesterday about the panama canal treaty where most of the experts thought he was a fool for taking the position. >> he said we win. they lose. that was his strategy. if you're a trump voter, paris

says to you, this is a tough guy we need. he says it like it is and going to bomb the held out of him. if jeb bush or marco rubio can use that in foreign policy to reassure people. >> maybe that's not, i increasingly think the more we are told things are complicated and jim suggested earlier there's no simple military solution to defeating isis, the more people want a similar plis ek solution. something that sounds simple and clear and strong and whether it's about the economy, times of complexity here and europe. >> by the way, the new hampshire poll, we were siting a fox poll. trump 27% and rubio 13%.

he's well ahead there as well. you know, the president's petulance or whatever you want to call it, it comes at a price because when they are not strong voices from the white house, then you have the hysteria around refugees. you have the hysteria around isis. you have the hysteria perhaps it feeds into candidates to take advantage. there is a void created and barack obama has done more to help donald trump over the next three days and john kerry than any add that donald trump will ever run because politics is all about contrast. >> you can go back since american palsy policy and syria began. >> they have jeff flake and tim cane from the capitol who say we're long past due having an incredible debate in congress.

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there is momentum picking up. we introduced a five partisan in june to show bipartisanship is possible. a balanced approach to some of the strategic questions. >> david. >> i want to ask senator kaine whether you're worried at all in this very polarized polarized

political moment, whether the attempt to find illegal footing may end up producing the political log jam bad for the country and set back to fight against isis. aren't you worried about that a little bit. >> i'm going to work closely to show there's a bipartisan path forward to give the war a legal footing and do it in a way that sends a clear message of resolve. the good news is in resent days, sadly it's been because of tragedies, but in resent days you seen a letter of 35 house members by partisan i think the momentum is coming together and it is bipartisan. >> what do you hear from the

white house about this? >> they want our help. when they sent us the war authorizization in february, they were basically saying now we not just would welcome your involvement, we would really want your involvement because as this war has mutated and spread, so many different countries 16 months in, $5.10 service members killed i think they've realized it's open and an authorizization would be helpful. >> senator flake, kathy kay here. many of your republican colleagues, governors and those running for president said that united states should now look twice at allowing syrian refugees into the country. what's your position on that? >> i don't blame the governors and others for being concerned. i don't think the administration has done a good job explaining what this program is and does. to me, if there are any concerns and any gaps there, that fails

in comparison to some of our other programs that we ought to be more concerned about. it's down the list a little bit in our view. the regular political programs and tourist visas. visa waiver programs are all things that need to be addressed. on the refugee program, as the administration explains more about the vetting that does go on, there will be more comfort out there. >> senator flake, it's cokey roberts. you have been willing to be a bipartisan on a variety of issues. can you see picking up on what david asked you, can you see the senate, your colleagues on your side of the aisle and some democrats really going along in a way that has a debate that is meaningful or does it just become a shouting match against the administration? >> as time goes on, i think we're more likely to get that real debate because as tim said

it's been 16 months now, service members killed and also more than anything this is ma that's sized. isis is not just in syria and iraq, they're elsewhere. i think that there's a growing realization that we need to have this debate and we have to have a war resolution and so i do, i am concerned about that. certainly, we don't want a debate and our leadership is concerned we have a debate and don't get anywhere. that would be a good thing. i think there's an increasing realization that even if we don't need new legal authority that it would be a message that needs to be sent to our add vo says and allies and the troops fighting on our behalf. >> all right. senators thank you so much for being with us this morning. we appreciate it. still ahead, we go back to chris jansing on the ground in paris for just a moment in the latest developments from yesterday's major raid when we return.

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inchs still ahead we're bringing in andrea mitchell and going live to paris for the latest on the paris attacks and the question over whether the so-called master mind was killed plus the new isis video that threatens new york city. we're going to have a live report from times square. more with our interview with ash

carter. we're going to talk to them about what the right conditions would be on defeating the islamic state. plus new presidential polls from the cross the country. bad news for ben carson. good news for donald trump. plus chris christie has advice for the secretary of state. go to sleep and shut up. the secretary of state when we return. we've created a new company... one totally focused on what's next for your business. the true partnership where people,technology and ideas push everyone forward. accelerating innovation. accelerating transformation. accelerating next. hewlett packard enterprise. the possibility of a flare swas almost always on my mind. thinking about what to avoid,

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anchor for bbc world news america, caddi kay. also david in joining the conversation senior political editor sam stine. the host of andrea mitchell reports, andrea mitchell, we have a lot to go to. we were all laughing about this tweet that passed along the information last night that cspans coverage of the trump contains warning of explicit language. has to be a first for cspan. we have a lot of polls that have come out. national polls and state polls that show that guy actually. it goes down a little eight and back up. strong in the national polls and really strong in state polls. >> yes, he has staying power it

appears. people who have forecasted his downfall including my site to be honest probably underteestimate that. i'm still waiting to see. >> here we go. get the caveat in here. >> can i just say you can be a senior leader in the washington republican establishment because they keep saying the same thing. that's where the panic really is growing right now, sam. >> i think, again, rightfully so. you can actually forecast a whole primary process in which he can play in all of these states certainly by the polls or you can see if it's where different candidates end up. you have this prolonged primary that plays into trump's hands. >> we'll see what happens. jeb still struggling in a way that a few of us expected six months ago. let's go to paris. >> yeah, we'll go to the polls in a second. let's get the latest in the news

on the hunt for terrorist. british newspapers report that belgian police are searching for a terrorist suspect alleged to be the maker of the suicide belts used in the paris attacks. nbc has confirmed belgium police launched six new raids in direct connection with one of suicide bombers from friday. there's new disturbing footage from dailymail.com. they are enjoying their friday evening, some sitting outside when a gunman starts spraying bullets around them. glass shattered and people scramble ducking for cover. a woman seeks refuge behind the bar. there's also a moment where the governor backs up 20 seconds after the shooting starts and he attempts to shoot a woman in the head his guns jams and he got

away. the attackers were trying to maximize attacks. this has nbc news reports the entire operation likely didn't cost more than $10,000. when weapons, explosives and housing transportation are all joined in. chris jansing has been covering the breaking news from paris, chris, what more do we know about who was caught in that raid and who might have been left in that building? do we know anything yet? >> reporter: well, we don't know anything beyond what they've announced late yesterday. which obviously, two people are dead and eight people under arrest. we'll see if anything comes out of the interrogation of those suspects. of course, the big question that's hanging out there caddy, that everybody wants to know is the man that was dead, the so-called master mind, when you look at that time amount of money just reported that these

attacks cost, you realize that someone with the ability to recruit people who are willing to die for the cause is almost and i hate to put it in these terms but almost a priceless commodity for isis. the key question, where is he if he is still alive? is he in france, syria, or will dna testing show he's dead? in the meantime, we have new information. since we spoke last hour we mentioned the u.s. embassy warning americans traveling in italy about potential targets. st. peter's square. the opera house and cathedral. now, we are learning that italian police are searching for five people, potential targets there that have been flagged to them by the fbi. the eu meantime has updated its information saying that in its database of potential terrorist, they have now double the number they had two years ago. 10,000 people there tracking and these are the folks that have gone from europe to syria and

iraq. that shows you the scope of the intelligence, what intelligence officials have to follow and finally, france, this morning updating its numbers on those air strikes. they now say they have done 60 strikes and hit 35 isis targets. all of them either command centers or training centers and one final point on those raids that are going on in belgium, one of the alenled people that they're looking for the muhammadk. which is the person they believe is the bomb maker, also a critical component in all of this. do they have the skills, the expertise if they were going to launch more attacks. >> okay. chris jansing the paris for us. thanks very much. there's been a lot of not following them. the numbers are so big. the europeans are dealing with so many on this to follow all of them is virtually impossible. >> they don't have the manpower to do it.

no doubt, if the french have allowed this master mind to slip out of their hands one more time, there's obviously going to be a lot of conservation in paris. >> i think the french will be deeply kweconcerned and need to investigate and look at why they've been caught flat footed with the people known to them committing these terrible attacks first in january and now in here. >> this is a nation on alert. it didn't catch them by surprise. they have been on alert. 10,000 troops scattered across paris. >> watching europe react to all these terrible rumors from france, belgium, italy. you realize europe is low on the learning curve that we have been asending ever since 9/11. we have learned a lot. you think of how different security is in the u.s., the way in which the tsa became professional and made mistakes. we all know the air force is serious. we know our local police has

learned to use intelligence to track people. many things they've learned to do. more of what ash carter was talking about yesterday is how this has awakened the french and perhaps all of europe and he said we need their help. we need them in the game. there has been the feeling for many of the defense community that europe's been on a vacation from history since 1945 when the united states basically won the war and said we're going to take care of your defense from this point forward. >> right. certainly, nato has been asleep. we saw natos lack of response over and over again. they know nato will not respond. that's why he's trying to create an unusual alliance and this is not easy. even though there's a common

enemy and russia now with the airplane knows it has to show, putin wants to punish them and he said there will be no mercy at all. he wants to destroy us. even with that compelling impulse, getting these countries together and oncoming here, it's difficult. as jim was saying, the russians don't bomb the way we bomb. they are carpet bombing. you were saying this yesterday and all of our reporting, back this up. the damage assessment from what russia is doing day after day. >> it's running out of high quality emissions. they are dropping old bombs and the problem is they're killing so many civilians. >> there's going to be huge blow back from that. >> at some point you have to get the sympathy of people to support something new and that's terrible. >> can i just say that europe may have been asleep and france

perhaps in the last six months didn't respond aggressively enough. they did change surveillance rules. where are the arabs? they met this week in the gulf counsel and said we sympathize and mourn with you. they have not run any. our very good friends, none of them have run any bombing missions. the last was in august or september. since february or march. they said they were in this. they were all in. the problem is that the saudis are so tied down that we are now having to resupply them and we supply them, sold them $1.29 billion in more munitions for yemen because they're running out of stuff. >> that's their fight. that's their focussed on yemen right now. >> let's get more news on that. the other night in the philippines president obama had harsh words for republican

lawmakers and presidential candidates who oppose letting more refugees in the united states. some are firing back with tough talk of their own. here's the president's original remark. >> isil seems to exploit the idea there's a war between islam and the west. when you start saying individuals in positions of responsibility, suggesting that christians are more worthy of protection than muslims are in a war torn land, that feeds the isil narrative. first they were worried about the press being too tough on them in debates and now they're worried about 3-year-old orphans. that doesn't sound very tough to me. >> let me suggest something mr. president. if you want to insult me, you can do it over seas, in turkey and foreign countries but i would encourage you to come back

and insult me to my face. let's have a debate on syrian refugees anywhere you want. i would prefer it in the united states and not overseas where you're making the insults. >> for this president to insult the republicans, remember hillary clinton said one of enemies she's most proud of are the republicans. this is why the city is so divided in washington d.c. and our country is divided because they speak this way. is this the world you want your children to live in? a world where we have a president who says you shouldn't be too worried of a president who breaks his word and allows mayhem to exist around the world? >> is obama now a threat to america's national security? >> i think he's a threat to our country. he must have some kind of a thing going because you know, when you see that he won't even call them by their name attack after attack after attack and it's always the same thing. it's hatred and it's exactly that. it's radical islamic terrorism

and he won't even acknowledge it. it's like they're coming out of denmark or something. . >> when you think things can't get worse in washington they do get worse in washington. what advise would you have for the commander in chief at this point? >> as secretary of state, get some sleep. they're working hard. >> how about ignoring politicians at 2% in the polls. >> he needs to be commander in chief. we are at war with a deadly adversary and he needs to take the country with him in the direction of a united strong response. you're absolutely right. he shouldn't be responding to what some politician said to him. isis has attacked paris and we're involved in this political food fight between the president and candidates. >> i think that's really unfortunate and i think on some of this the republicans are to

blame. they're being opportunitistic. ever time they have an opening they go after the president and seize it. it's not the president's fault isis attacked paris. it's isis' fault. >> the people in the administration would argue the debate like the refugee one, in addition to sort of hatred message around the world, he's trying to take a stand. i think he's wrong on the message and the way he delivered it. i'm not the only one who throughs that. ron claim was tweeting up the storm on how to diffuse this national panic. one of the things he talked about is not talking down to your adversaries. in this case the republicans. i thought the comments at the press conference were unnecessarily con den send nt.

i say don't punch down. never give your enemies what they want. don't punch down. ignore it. rise above it. that's what commander in chiefs

do. you turn your opponents weakness into strength. >> don't you think it's important that the president stand up for american values with governors panicking. >>. >> the kind of people we are, we're more open and tolerant. >> but don't undercut your own message. you can say this is who we are when you come into new york harbor and see the statue of liberty. don't dress the republicans. >> not just the republicans but the roanoke mayor. >> the thing is the president's job right now is to respond to the horrors in paris. that's his job.

it is to unify the united states and france and our allies across the region and the world. that's job number one. he will have time to mock republicans on jimmy kimmel when he gets back to the country. can we point out where we got to statue of liberty from? one quick thing, the house is going to pass legislation which says the fbi trdirector has to pass a bill. on the other side there's bipartisanship. thooir going to introduce bipartisan legislation to get at the real problem which is the visa waiver to say for five years it'd has to be suspended for anyone who kaem to iraq and syria. >> sam is right. democrats are also concerned. americans are concerned right now and that's why back and

forth from the commander in chief actually undercuts the commander in chief and makes his job even harder than explaining. >> what they need is leadership and facts and context and appeal to american veterans. >> and the winning at home. >> let's get the latest on the polls from the campaign. we've had a slew of them. on the republican presidential race from bloomberg politics is out this morning and donald trump maintains his lead over the field with 24% followed by ben carson at 20% which is barely in the margin of error there. marco rubio the only other one to score in double digits. there's a different runner up. trump is winning in the first primary state of new hampshire. 27% to marco rubio's 13%. cruz comes in a close third at 11 points and busch and carson are tied at 9. it's the second poll showing trump dominating the state in as

many days after the wbur poll released its results. on to florida, their polls reveal 38% massive in his home state with ben carson and cruz both ahead of former governor bush. in connecticut trump has an 11 point lead over rubio. with new jersey's republican voters, trump also 31%. rubio 18% and ben carson at 11% and home state governor chris christ christie, he's down. amazing. right across the board trump is doing great. >> there is a poll in colorado which some believe sampled the evangelicals that has carson first there. sam stein, everywhere, donl trump is running up mass evidence leads. >> why do you think that is? >> strength. it all comes down to strength. it's paris but i will tell you

also the speech that cokey and others were offended by actually the belt buckle speech as well, i'm telling you what would destroy other candidates. it only makes god civil la stronger. you can usually strip down a campaign to one word. trump is strength. carson was integrity. i thought he was going to drop in the polls and he is. >> if you were marco rubio and been spending time battling ted cruz, would you change your focus? >> i think he has to, i think he

and cruz are in a death match. >> these polls also show an addition to paris' strengths. they show rubio identifying the challenger to trump. cruz is not going to be the establishment challenger. he may replace trump as the outsider. if you're marco rubio you begin to think i am the person who can go after this very strong.

>> trump has to fall. >> when does jim start to get up there? >> he's coming soon. i don't know. i don't think paris helps marco. >> you don't? >> he's a young guy. he's a young inexperienced first term senator just like the young inexperienced first term senator who is now president of the united states. >> it's helping trump. >> yep, it's helping trump. >> talking inexperience, ben carson's campaign has deleted a map of the united states from twitter they posted after they pointed out several inaccuracies. they posted this map to highlight the number of governors taking in rev jew

gees. in a side by side comparison you can see several states. >> they moved vermont. >> i don't know what happened. >> that is going to effect snow season. >> that's foreign policy. >> you can't blame that one. >> that's strength right there to redraw the map. >> all right. >> a bump in the poll. >> still ahead on morning joe, we have a member of the homeland security committee and lieutenant kernel, the iowa national guard. plus what's a strategy here in what's the approach? he has to include defeating isil in iraq and syria. that's the beating heart or that is the parent tumor of this thing called isil.

he is talking bluntly. more with secretary defense ash carter about the keys to defeating the islamic state when we return. whatever you're doing, plan well and enjoy life... ♪ or, as we say at unitedhealthcare insurance company, go long. of course, how you plan is up to you. take healthcare. make sure you're covered for more than what just medicare pays... consider an aarp medicare supplement insurance plan insured by unitedhealthcare insurance company... the only medicare supplement plans that carry the aarp name, and the ones that millions of people trust year after year. it's about having the coverage you need... plan well. enjoy life. go long. well, right now you can get 15 gigs for the price of 10. that's 5 extra gigs for the same price. so five more gigs for the same price? yea, allow me to demonstrate. do you like your pretzel? yea. okay, uh, may i? 50% more data for the same price. i like this metaphor. oh, it's even better with funnel cakes. but very sticky.

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we're playing word association games with trump. >> what would it take to work with isis? as well as increasing the ground forces in syria. squl a lot of people inside the pentagon not excited about sharing entail and technology and know how with russians. >> that's understandable.

in all seriousness. you ask can we work with the russians? well, it's possible. it's possible. in time we will be able to do that. but the russians got off on the wrong foot with this. they started out with a strategy that's deeply mistaken and doomed to fail. that was a strategy not to fight isil which they said they were going to do. that's not what they did. instead to support the government of isad. if the russians change their strategy and work on a political transition in which isad goes and the structures of government in syria are sustained, some

decency can be restored to that place for the people, that's what we've been in favor of. that's not the way the russians started. so if they change and i've been saying right from the beginning that they were off on the wrong foot. if they get on the right foot then and i think secretary carrie has been discussing this with the russians, there's a possibility they will contribute in a positive way to this campaign. that's obviously, something we wish for. that's not how they started. >> joe, you very understandably raised the question, what's the strategy, the approach? >> it has to include defeating isil in iraq and syria. that's the beating heart. that is the parent tumor.

that's where dealing with finances and improving intelligence and getting more in the game controlling borders, so there's a lot more than iraq and syria and a lot more than defense. the president has indicated they prepared to do more including on the ground but the trick here is this. this gets to the heart of the strategy for the ground campaign both in iraq and in syria. it's important not only to defeat isil in iraq and syria, but they have the stay defeated. and that means that there has to be capable and motivated local forces that are prepared to sustain the defeat. we know from afghanistan and we know from iraq that that's the hard part. >> how important is the military

objective of clearing raqqah? if so, what would it take and if so, then what? >> well, it is important to clear raqqah and because raqqah for no other reason is the self-declared capitol of the islamic state. so our approach to that is to surround it, close it off and then take it back. they need to be destroyed there and some reasonable form of governments which has to be local has to be restored there so it doesn't descend into chaos once again. >> what other significant changes do you want to make moving the forces into the future. >> here's a great example. big data. big data is out there all the time and tells you what movie you want to see on netflix and all kinds of stuff. we haven't used data much in

this department. we have concerns but our data is most mostly anty doal about people, the 9/11 generation, leaving us. i need to know if that's true. i talk to lots of these people. at i talk to people and tell them, tell me what's going to make this day. i can't talk to everybody. we need that kind of information. what makes someone stay and what makes them want to go. some say i like to have a family. it doesn't seem like that's compatible. i want to make that okay in some way. i like to get a higher degree. i don't think i can do that. we want to have a baby. our parents live in florida.

we're not going to be able to accommodate everyone. we can be smart about what we're up against, we need to be. we don't have the data to do it. i don't know how good my recruiters are because i give them a number and they come back and say okay, i got 30 people, you told me i needed 30 people this month. i need to know, i need that kind of information. that's a technique widespread in society. it's not as widespread as it ought to be right here. these are the things we need to do to bring the best practices outside while keeping the tradition, the nobility and the honor associated with the profession of arms which we'll always need to have. >> so, david, again, more straight talk. this is the straitest talk we've heard from the administration on how to defeat isis. >> i thought that was a clear aenunsiation on what the u.s.

strategy the i've heard. what is the strategy and ash carter, secretary of defense did that with you. i thought he was clear about russia, that russia has to be fully part of the strategy that goes after isis, that doesn't just support syria and leads to stability in syria and a resolution. i thought he was very clear about going to the heart. we're going to have to go to raqqah, take raqqah. i thought there was no ambiguity here. that's the kind of leadership and clarity that's going to get the country behind the strategy and maybe stop some of the political argument. >> he had no problem saying we have to defeat them. we have to win. we have to beat them which of course, all the moral ambiguities of that drive people like barack obama crazy, but that is why americans, what the french, the world. >> don't forget, president obama did appoint ash carter. >> thwhat i'm saying is ash

carter's actual words may be more in alignment with the obama administrations policy. barack obama has policy though pronuns appreciating that when he has a live microphone in front of him and republicans are throwing pebbles at him. >> he seems academic about it. one of the challenges is to break that alliance with iran. we have to persuade russia going after isis and being with the u.s. and french militarily is more important than supporting isad. >> it's funny when i said a lot of people in the pentagon have a problem, you think? you think? >> you and i both looked at each other and said there it is when the secretary said that the beating heart. >> right. >> of isis is in syria and iraq and basically, we got to tear it out. >> that is exactly where everybody starts to waffle

because what does that mean? tear it out and what does that mean in terms of troops on the ground? all of those questions so everybody says beat them, get rid of them but then you get to the hard part. >> we have breaking news right now. we've been hearing for the past couple of days the target of those early morning attacks was the master mind of the paris attacks. nbc can confirm now that he was in fact killed in the raid. david ig nashs and the washington post exhales because the washington post went out on the line yesterday morning or yesterday afternoon while throughout the night there was, there were many questions and in fact into the morning, many people believe that he had escaped once again but nbc news confirming right now that the master mind has in fact been

ki killed. david, how important is that? >> he is so far the central critical organizer facilitator of these attacks. it's crucial that he is killed in a petty journalistic sense from washington. i'm glad we didn't have to end up with an affirmative exclusive. nobody else follows it. but the larger point is this is really an important success for the french that they've gotten their target and the question now is what's the extent of the network beyond abaaoud. >> andrea mitchell reports coming in that his body was so riddled with bullet holes, they could only i.d. him with a fingerprint. >> it's an important symbolic victory. we shouldn't take too much comfort in this in the counter

terror sense because we all know getting jihadi john and any of these leaders, this thing has ma that ma that's sized. this is a much more horizontal organization. >> and you never know. >> this is definitely -- >> the way that the young westerners are signing up to go is frightening and you never know when somebody's going to look at this and say well i'll replace him and then volunteer. >> i think it's a mistake that many people are making david, when they look at isis and compare it to al qaeda. yesterday i had somebody ask me last night whether these five syrians that had the fake greek passports said were they coming out to kill us and somebody on tv was saying absolutely not.

there's no way a so-called counter terror expert. >> how do you know? >> you don't know. isis is not al qaeda. it is as andrea said more horizontal. maybe they did. if they felt like it, maybe they didn't. there is not in a cave in afghanistan sending out signals through couriers on when the next big attack is going to come. >> they are much more diffused. they're decentralized. they are opportunitistic. if you look at their immediate propaganda, they're constantly saying to people in europe and the u.s., you can do it where you are. take action, communicate with us. help us. we just don't know howdy fused, how many are there across europe, germany and how many are there in the u.s.? those are the things that we'll

be focussed on. >> 90,000 texts a day they send out to people saying kill, kill, kill wherefore you are. so it's, it is still a very, very serious threat. having said that, it's good they got to guy. >> that's one of the things, andrea, somebody in the intelligence community, when we're having the debate about the phone records and everything and people's, the guy said to me, he goes, speaking about the 90,000 texts, people think i'm going to look at records to see if they're having an affair with somebody. he's like i'm trying to figure out if london is going to be nuked tomorrow and he said i got so much information coming all the time. the fact that i give a damn about what's happening to somebody in wichita or topeka right now, it's again 90,000 texts a day. they are overwhelmed. they need all the help they can get. >> you referenced the five

syrians. i actually had to work on that for a couple of hours last night to make sure this wasn't a big deal. we were getting up against the nightly news dead line and we switched gears and went into this. talking to the police chief, they told us they're going to get to kwaut ma la and walk through. literally, this is what we've been told. they were thousands of miles away at that point. they had come syria, greece, turkey, brazil. you would not believe the itinerary. we got to homeland and a homeland, first, they called in the greek embassy because of the greek passports and did not speak a word of greek. >> that's a good sign. >> it's a sign that this was totally fake. there was a homeland official who on the ground interviewed them and said these guys are not a problem. we got that, actually a network

of people face to face with some of these. >> we're watching the story unfold and i know that some people said okay, this is why with can't let syrian refugees in. this is the problem. we don't know where they're from. there is a screening crisis and it's incredibly difficult to get from syria to the united states. there's a huge ocean there. you know that they're 18 month to 24 month period by which these people are vetted is a bureaucratic process that can work. >> i said many times over. >> in fact, it gets to the point where the visa waiver program is a bigger as a rule nur blt. the people isis are recruiting, they go to syria and come back. so when these people have a 90-day window to come into america without having to apply for a visa. >> and i had a source in the government tell me yesterday they're just the way they're going to take care of it because we discussed it yesterday and a lot of people were talking to me

about it throughout the day and one high ranking official said well, which it's going to put them on the no fly list. >> that's a part of it. >> he said if they want to swim here, they can. >> part of the problem is jay johnson will tell you in all the briefings, they are not getting the cooperation they need on the passenger list from the europeans and that is the next big thing. >> one thing that we've learned in the last 24 hours is that when isis facilitators in syria have contacted people what is your occupation who surfaced on the internet and called back to try to motivate them, get them to act and plan an operation, those people go on a target list and many of them, i wrote this morning, 50 people or more have been killed in direct action by our special forces and operations that have not surfaced publicly, but each time that information saying this

person is in contact with somebody who can kill americans and hit american targets, they have a different status. >> isn't the bigger problem here, the bigger concern might be best answer is they will end up playing with this stuff. we'll we place the. >> what are you going to do otherwise? you got to wax the molds. >> correct. that's why defeat as a word is difficult for a lot of people to stomach which is this will never be, it's about managing. >> you can't say it will never be i rad kated. >> reasonable expectations are to manage the success. >> the thing is though you look at what we did with al qaeda in 2001 and you can look 14 years later and say we did a good job with al qaeda. >> think about all the number threes that were killed. think about the number two's killed. we finally killed the number one

and it was because of our aggressive actions. david, it was a terror organization that did spend most of its time after september 11th back on its heels. >> it was difficult for al qaeda to plan the kind of attacks they wanted. you have to remember the threats come not guilty 2001, 2003 dirty bombs, subway attacks, a range of horrible attacks. it was difficult for al qaeda on its back foot to do any of that. isis is different. it's decentralized. we have to understand this is going to be a long struggle on the u.s. since allies have to be persistent. it's not over the next six months or even. >> it is a breeding ground if we start saying things like we're going to let in christians and not muslims. that does absolutely play to their recruitment tactics. you know, i keep thinking about every time we pull something

like this as a country which we don't to often. we are a good country. we end up, look at what happened with reward to and the internment of the japanese, we end up apologizing and paying reformations because it was the wrong thing to do and we're putting ourselves in a similar situation right now and we find if any of these people follow through on this, we find ourselves in very few years from now it was the wrong thing to do and caused a terrible backlash and it was a stain on the history of america. >> let's see what happens a week or two from now. i believe everything we seen and heard the democrats and republicans coming together with security concerns. we're going to figure out a way to make this work. i think again most of the focus is going to be on the visa guest program and some of those other programs. i want to say though really quickly how do you win this war? it's a tough difficult war but i

think one thing that the president. the importance not the sound like donald trump here but branding them losers. it's not a coincidence on the evening after juhadi john. it's not a coincidence that when to start combatting americans. this is all propaganda. you feed the propaganda machine by winning. the propaganda machine gets shut down when you start losing battles or get driven out of iraq or the in times cal fate. the vision of that. >> the president was trying to. >> you need to know you can hold

raqqah not next month or next year but indefinitely, that part of the world which has been a mess for 30, 40 years has to change and i think if the president is thinking about that long game and whose going to go in not just to rural raqqah but to hold raqqah, that's the right question. >> i'm not saying it's going to be easy to do. i'm saying if we're talking about defeating isis, we have to understand this is all about propagan propaganda. it's all about new recruits. it's all about the lie. >> that's what the president was trying when he called them j.v. he was trying to propagandize they were all abunch of losers. >> he also missed the one when he said they were contained and they couldn't strike here. he should put that j.v. reference on the bench. >> no kidding. let it have some gatorade and

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we're following breaking news right now. keir, what can you tell us? >> reporter: joe, we're hearing

that abhumid abaaoud was killed in those raids. he is the man who they believe was orchestrating, was behind the massacre here in paris. they raided that third floor apartment believing he was there in the apartment. one woman blew herself up with an explosive vest. another man was killed. they didn't know who the man was. since then they have been working on checking the fingerprints to be completely certain they had got their man. they now say that they have. we have heard prior to that from the prosecutor that they believe here in france that that cell where abaaoud was to the with that cell and that cell was preparing to launch another attack. so they say this morning that they do believe that they have

killed the mastermind behind the french terror attacks and prevented, joe, another attack launched by him. >> we greatly appreciate it in all of paris and parts of the washington newsroom. with us lieutenant ernst. >> good morning. good to be here. we talked to ash carter about how do we defeat isis. is it a whack a mole game or do we need to be more aggressive? >> we need to be more aggressive but that would include a comprehensive strategy coming from our president and coming from our jont chiefs. they can develop that strategy. we need to implement it and rely

on those military experts. we as congress, though, need to make sure that we have an aumf, an authorization of use of military forces, which will direct our military and what they can and can't do as they go of a isis in the middle east and we need to get rid of sequestration for the military. >> do you think that your stnts in iowa and you personally are now ready to support significant deployment of ground troops? >> ewouldn't say significant amount of american troops. we need to rely on our military expert. ehave brilliant member of the jont chaffs of staff. we need to rely on them to. >> so you'd be more cashes san

some of the gone presidential candidates about sending in troops and -- >> i think we do need to have troops on the ground but what i want to see is can we build that coalition. we need to do something. i think we need to do it immediately. but first we have to have a president that will recognize we need it do more than whatever this strategy is that's going on. because it's not working. we're not containing isis. it is spreading. >> senator stay with us if you can through the break. because of breaking news, we got a hard break for the top of the hours. nbc is confirming the mastermind of the attack was killed in a raid. plus new video coming in from russia this morning, reportedly taking out an isis i'll refinery in syria. it's about time. is this the beginning of a u.s./russian a lines? and more with ash carter about how going from budget battle to

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welcome back to "morning joe." we are back with katty kay, senator joanie ernst of iowa. we're following breaking news. >> we've learned that the mastermind behind last week's terror attacks was killed in yesterday's raid. chris jansing, who has been covering the news from paris is

with us now. chris, what are you hearing? >> this literally is just breaking. there is actually conflicting information coming out, not about whether he is dead, that has been confirmed, that he is indeed among the dead. there was so much devastation from the explosion from the female who was wearing that belt that they aren't sure if there are on two dead, just that he is one of them. there also would seem to be conflicting reports, one said that his body was riddled with bullets, but we just got a clarification from the paris prosecutor who said it's not exactly clear whether or not he exploded himself. what we do know is that this is a man who not only seemed to have masterminded the attacks that happened here on friday but seemed to be heading this cell in saint denis.

as recently as last month there were strikes in syria aimed at him. obviously that did not get him. there had been previous attempts when they thought they had him in a raid last fall in brussels, they killed two people but it turned out he was not there. in addition to the fact that he obviously was intricate to the planning and many intelligence officials say it not 100% clear exactly what his role was in terms of being a go-between in europe cells and what's happening in syria, but in addition there is the whole idea of him being the person out there who was kree their recruitment. he was able someonable to get together a group of people who were ready to kill themselves on friday night. he was front and center in many, many of their videos that have been used online to attract people overseas. one of the ongoing questions that will be here is what impact does this have on isis

recruiting? does it have any impact on what european and american officials say has been a priority for them, which is to count are isis' very successful recruiting and propaganda campaign? >> katty? >> at the same time there is new disturbing footage of the attack on a paris cafe. glass shatters, a woman seeks refuge behind the bar. a woman backs up and attempts to shoot a woman in the head at point blank range.

his gun misfires and he flees. this as nbc news reports that the entire operation likely didn't cost more than $10,000. when weapons, explosives and housing transportation is all fa fa factored in. >> can you have lone wolves commit acts of terror or terror cells like that. it makes it much harder where you had a number one, number two, number three. >> it is very difficult. again, i think we do have to take it at its route and that is in the middle east and in iraq and in syria. we really have to get very serious about what we are doing in that region. and we have to admit that what's going on right now with whatever the strategy is that the president might or might not have is not working.

it is not containing isis. we see -- >> can i push you on number of troops? because lindsay graham will go sometimes up to 20, 30,000 troops. do we put -- the white house is going to end up putting in -- they say 3,500. the entire package is going to be around 5,000. should they double that? should we double that, have they're the ones that will develop those campaign plans in the middle east. again, it can't just be american troops. we need to develop a great coalition and take this into the middle east and i think we can do that but we have to have a leader here in the united states that says we're going to destroy isis, not contain it, not

degrade it but destroyed it. >> we have leader ash carter said in the interview with us yesterday what so many americans and frechb maechb we have to rip that heart out, take those countries back, we have to defeat them. >> he was so clear and so direct with you, it was really refreshing to see that from a defense secretary and from cabinet secretary. that by all of the on sgs to ground troops and doing this and putting person his temperature is forward based air controllers, to have americans

with the french because they have tround interat the present time and to have them closer to the front lines. >> does that sond like a good idea? >> it does. if we want those air strikes to be successful, we want someone son the ground who can manage those air strikes. historically, air strikes alone will not win a war. >> you don't want to put a number of the amount of troops needed there and you talk about the coalition but so far building that coalition hasn't been typically successful. some of the arab coalitions are

backing off. >> this is the key, though. the reason we are not building a coalition is because we have a president that hasn't admitted we need to build a coalition and after go after a isis. if we had a leader that would step up and say this is a problem, ewe srm. >> what i want to hear from the president is complete honesty with the american people that his strategy, his way ward way of doing thanksgiving in the middle east is not working. we are not destroying isis. >> so you're not going to get that. what else would you like? >> you're in the going to get that from barack obama. what else would you like. >> rnltle for the general and all of the fokts working for him

diligently to protect america and say, you know what, i want to listen to what our military leaders have to say. >> the senator just brought up a very important name and we talked about it actually off air. the new chairman of the joint chiefs, not allergic to syria. actually understand that there is a war that has to be fought in syria. how much of a difference is the new chairman of the joint chiefs going to make in his attitude toward taking the fight to isis? >> i've talked at some length with general dunnford, he's a mari marine. >> general dempsey came through iraq, he saw the worst, the most difficulty, he understood the president's desire to see if

there's a way we could pull back. i don't want to say dempsey he supported every reluctant move by the president. if i could just ask the nor everyone is worrying about, whether homeland security and law enforcement have a good handle on isis facilitators and planners. >> i think there are concerns all about this administration and my first priority to to make sure americans are protected in whatever manner. secretary johnson has worked hard to put certain enhancements in place, to make sure the

homeland is protected. but there's always more that we could be doing. if we look at our borders, our borders are very insecurity. we have people that will pass quite easily over our borders. what's to say that's not the next point of entry for a number of those febs tr they're going to look for the easy ways in and our border right now is an easy way in. >> and the cia about the threat level. zit not just an issue being discussed here in the united states. moscow has confirmed it not planning a joint operation with france to feet isis in syria. it comes just day after president putin ordered a russian missile cruiser to the med crean but right now president obama isn't ready to

partner with russia until vladimir putin agrees to a plan to removed bashar assad from power. >> the problem has been in their initial incursion to syria, they've been more focused on propping up mr. assad as opposed to targeting those folks who threaten us, europe and russia as well. >> president obama there. >> senator, i'd love to know what you think about a prospect of some sort of arrangement with russia and whether the french now getting into a coalition with russia complicate things with american intelligence. >> i think it's a very difficult situation. i can't imagine our folks at the pentagon are thrilled with this. it does present some challenges.

if moscow is willing to engage in this fight, i think that we should consider that. however, it needs to be made quite clear what they can and cannot do in this fight against isis. what intelligence will be shared and will not be shared. so i think we need to move with caution any time that we are discussing putin and russia. >> so, david, we were talking earlier about how many of our arab allies are reluctant to get involved or actually andrea and i were talking about this, reluctant to get involved bus they fear that this president will leave them hanging out there, that they'll get involved and then he'll retreat and they'll be stuck there fighting their neighbors. i know we've always heard that off the air from diplomats and leaders from the middle east and especially the gulf region. that -- what sort of signal does

it send that france is bombed, nato can't help, putin is saying we can help you and barack obama says we may help. >> don't forget the u.s. has been bombing targets in syria since last year. i think we've been active and aggressive. i think what the u.s. has to do now is to bring together a group of countries that share opposition to isis. that list includes russia, it includes france, it includes iran, it includes saudi arabia, it includes the uae and bring them all together in common strategy. >> the president continues to say he's not getting involved in the coalition. >> the point that ash cart are made to you i think is exactly

right. until the russians understand that bashar is a mag nnt nor those doing the bombings, until they understand that, it's a no-win proposition. i think secretary kerry is trying to figure out a way to make that work. >> it not an either/or. it going to be aniesing out or ham add. >> keir simmons is in paris. what more do you have, keir? >> well, we are waiting to hear from the french prosecutor who will told a news conference shortly to confirm that abaaoud was killed, to confirm they

identified him through his fingerprints where he was killed on that third floor apartment and also to identity of the woman who exploded the suicide vest next to him. so we are waiting for more details but the question now is going to be about how abaaoud managed to make his way into paris to be in that firefight with french police and to be able to personally organize in person those tack tajewish muse, he's thought to have orchestrated that in belgium. you remember back when there appeared just to be a kind of lone wolf with a kalashnikov, that attack was stopped by a number of passengers, including

three americans. so he was a wanted man. he was a man who on the ice i didn't magazine, we're going to read you this extraordinary quote in the isis magazine earlier this year bragged, "my name and picture were all over the news, yet i was able to stay in their homeland, plan operations again them and leave how much it that he was able it get back into europe if he was being honest in that quote and was in syria to the capital of france to then launch this massacre? this is they did manage to stop this cell, they got abuy you'd.

keir simmons, thanks very much from paris. we will be checking back as soon as there is more information. >> very disturbing news. senator, thank you for coming. we ask you the tough guess about how is donald trump doing so well with iowa evangelicals? >> tease a great question. iowans have a lot to look at over the next couple of months. i'm excited for the iowa caucus. >> that's all you're going to say? >> she could be secretary of state. >> she really could. >> thank you very much. >> coming up, much more ahead this hour as new information tens to come in on breaking news that the mastermind behind

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let's get more on that raid in paris. the french justice minister is giving a conference. we'll get more on that. >> translator: i salute of work of all of these bodies. this is the third report i bring to this jurisdiction since this

subject -- this is going to be the third reinforcement that i'm providing to this group so i salute and congratulate all the group, the working groups everywhere. the result that we have reached are not -- were not reached by coincidence. this is the fruit of several efforts since friday. all of the judges and the investigators have been working tirelessly with the crisis cell and the victim cell, the legal and the medical institute has continued to work with us. so this is a permanent

mobilization. >> let's go to more with our exclusive interview with secretary ash carter. he said down with mika and me for his first interview since the attacks inside the pentagon. i'll tell you what, a straight-spoken response to a lot of questions that have surprised many of us around the table here, in contrast to the president that he serves. the second doesy questions trags and do the budget battles on capitol hill make it harder for you to do your job and come up with an effective strategy to defeat isis? >> they do make the job a lot harder, never mind -- it unfair

to our men and women not to know the future, this herky-jerky budgets. it's inefficient. it causes us to spend money in not the most strategic way. you have a defense strategy that looks to the future. you don't have a defense strategy one year at a time. by the way, i travel around the world and people say to me, hey, what's going on with you guys? and i have to explain what is almost to explain. joe, just in the last few weeks it does seem -- people have come together, at least for the next two years behind a budget in recognition of what has to be true and it's not my job but understand if we're going to have a reasonable approach to the federal budget, it has to deal with the entirety of the

federal budget, which is also revenues and mandatory spending. all that was put in the package. it was people coming together. in general, defense is something that's been here for 240 years. it's bipartisan. it's about the most vital thing that we can provide, which is protect our people, create a better world, give our children a better future and it deserves more out of washington than we've seen. >> you have some real technological challenges, too. you have computers in the pentagon that are working off of software developed in the 1980s. it's extraordinary and it's not just here, it's across the government. we're hearing about terrorists that were fighting that's user-to-user endescription on

soft it, we make sure to the best we can that we're keeping it up to date and that our soldiers have the best and so forth. when it comes to some of these back room functions, some of which are really important, like helping our people transition to life as a veteran, their medical records. it's inexcusable to have technology that old. and the honest truth is that it's not easy for us to attract and retain as full-time employees for life technical talent because a lot these people want it contain i can't

offer the money, can't offer the fans ys kind of serkss and glamour but we have the mission. they want to -- these are people who want to matter. they want to do something of consequence. they want to wake up and be part of something bigger than themselves. this is the most consequential thing they can be doing. so they like the idea that, gee, can i get in there and do something that really matters? they want to do something that matters in technology. they see that this matters and they care. the idea that they can make a real difference, which they can, in just a couple years, that's exciting. >> what about those, speaking about silicon valley and the best and brightist. withee need some of.

>> well, when i started out in this business, joe, and senator feinstein will understand, it was a tradition left over from world war ii that the tech community and the high tech business community woshtd with the government. years go by, the edward snow kren disclosh why is there's a generation of people that haven't had that experience. i'm trying to reach out to them and say i'll meet you what i'm not going to try to make you be like us, i'm not going to try to make you -- because young people

today don't think of life in a way like an escalator where you get on at the bottom and you wait your turn until it takes you up. they think of life as a jungle gym are you get up by moving around, getting new things, new experiences, enriching yourselves. we need to if woe him 3 half the way and drill that's the way to keep this institution really vital, healthy and also socially connected. >> david ignatius? >> listening to him touk about energy, about managing the

tallincythink i think is the hartdest management in the government. it. he it testimony sfrchlt who has said that he'd be willing to accommodate tax heeks in exstrange for sequestration, specifically for the military. and i am curious, all these people who are now very adamant that we need to do something with rebust in temperature

sequestration is a profound problem on both side. >> and not just in the military. >> tomorrow we're going to show you rare hind he and we go to paris where chris jansing is standing by with breaking news. plus we dig into the 2016 republican field following jeb bush's major address at the citadel when we return. nutritional drink has 26 essential vitamins and minerals, including calcium and vitamin d to support strong bones and 10 grams of protein to help maintain muscle. all with a great taste. i don't plan on slowing down any time soon. stay strong. stay active with boost. now try new boost® compact and 100 calories. they are. do i look smarter? yeah, a little. you're making money now, are you investing? well, i've been doing some research. let me introduce you to our broker.

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at some point, at the end of that, what he calls a very long

time, the woman spraying from a rifle. there's a beg explosion. she obviously detonated her suicide belt. the question that they still have was he detonating himself as well. ? did he die totally from the gun fire or was he also caught as sort of collateral damage when she exploded her built. as you know now, windows were blown out that, floor collapsed. a dick let me bring in kasie hunt, "new york times" reporter jeremy peters and washington bureau claef is with us. michael, let's start with a poll out of -- a bloom brg toll talking with the most important issue facing the country right now, but iceem 21%, terrorism

14%, unemployment 1 %. jobs obviously offer the be in,. >> hillary clinton is going to come out i think today and give a speech and she's going to try and position herself to the right of president obama without disassociating herself with president obama and to the right bernie sanders. that will probably help her. the most it if frn fwrnl i have -- we had a tweet last night that somebody was lfing at the facting in oos punt, it be,

if interview with mark heilemann and trnl with overweming force. militarily we need to intensify our efforts in the air and on the ground. the united states frrnlt we'll need to increase or presence on the ground, the foal f not as

politicians but to be necessary to achieve our objectives. >> come pardon the. from frfrmt ot. trm trmt he's been stuck in this box, right, between his brother on the one hand and the fact that the think doesn't want to go back to a woman on the middle east and donald trump who is sounding so el owe kos, talking about how we can bomb isis. for jeb bush, if he comes out in a real rahal aggressive way, then all of the comparisons are here we go again. but if he does looks looking weak, that explains where his

pole number now and why he struggled as candidate. >> as you said to me, the president chose to pivot from national security where everybody else is to a refugee crisis. how does that impact not on the republican field, it's now taunt being him, but also democrats? >> well, what the president is doing what he's done before, which is bring the debate to capital punishment pb like they're deanywaying safe ai don't know to orphans and widows. but ethink the argument at that obama rozs is the argument of what do right now with the refugee crisis. polls have known recent will i that most persons oppose resettling them right now on this fair. they're on a sort of pause for allowing them into the country in the first place. so it's not a politically unreasonable thing to say, okay,

maybe we should vet these people a little bit more carefully. and that's where the president i think is on some shacky ground. >> so, michael, how does this resolve itself in. >> i think the presidency has not to -- >> ash carter has communicated that. on the refugee issue ron claimed frrnl sfrfrmt he has confronted them and divided the country, it something that the cover story wrote this week talks about it. at a time of crisis like, this the president has lot of different roles. some are political, some have to

do with policy but the professorial lecture of i'm right and you're wrong and i'm going to win on the strategy of isis doesn't serve him well. it's very possible that we're back here in a month because we're back here on our soil. >> and what's so fascinating when you who. shl much more after a quick break. thank you. so, can the test drive be over now? maybe head back to the dealership? it's practically yours, but we still need your signature. the sign then drive event. zero due at signing, zero down, zero deposit, and zero first months payment on a new tiguan and other select volkswagen models.

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right across the board, joe. >> phil, boy. donald trump playing which is he is belt and swearing in speeches. >> is this the moment we depict a decline again? >> i think in this past week the decline was predicted. i think there was another "time" story talking about this time with his attacks on carson, he's gone too far. you look at his numbers, he's in mid to high 30s, pounding chris christie, pounding marco and jeb bush in their home state of florida. >> i think there's a lot of question, okay, in the aftermath paris, in the aftermath of syria refugees, did this one one hit

trump? listen to his radio advertisement he released today. anybody who is listening to that, even though there's not hundreds of thousands of syrian refugees walking into the country, taking to what he's been talking about a couple afterwards everybody was it willing me, oh, this is going to really hurt him. i said are you kidding me? before it happened i said this gets the base back to immigration. he's the toughest on immigration. now watch marco rubio. he brought it back to immigration not on to be tough but to expose marco rubio's basis as he sees as a

challenger. >> donald trump is a one-person message. he know what is it is, he sticks to it. but the other part of this is we saw carson's numbers drop, i imagine in part because of what donald trump has been out there saying. if he does decide to turn he is fire on rubio, that is the next brewing battle and you already have cruz up on the air talking about this. >> jeremy, if you look at what's happened to trump, there was this speculation that paris would be. >> we'll knock the health out of them, take the oil. >> it's more of an attitude than an ideology. >> that was in my column in the "new york times," mikele and i

wrote a couple months ago. >> make america great again. >> but there's this moment ary. >> at the boomer polls, we're looking at the top line numbers, national security and terrorism have jumped ahead of any issue economically. if everybody thinks ben carson is weak on national security, which kind of looks that way based on everything you've reard in the last couple of weeks or days, donald trump has a big advantage on the issue. you add the syria refugee issue, these are almost walking right into his wheelhouse in terms issues. >> kasie hunt, the republican establishment is panicking. the thought that donald trump might win iowa and kasich or

bush, knocks him off there. as we get closer and closer to thanksgiving, we all know december is a dead month in politics, right now a lot of people scratching their head in the gop establishment saying who is our candidate? is it marco? is it jeb? is it cruz? >> there is no answer and there are brewing fights that give this many even more cause for concern. i was just in south carolina for example. you think about tease a state that's typically very establishment. the whole place is a mess compared to where it's been in previous cycles. a lot of people in the party don't stand what's going on. you have on the one hand trump supporters who are mostly outside the party apparatus. are those people going to turn into voters? they're angry and outside. then you have carson. there's an event he's holding two weeks from now. they already have 3,000 rvps. i was at a jeb bush event, it's all the people in north carolina suits clapping politely. but nobody can identify how many

of these people that there are. he's absent in the polls. cruz and carson overlap so much that cruz is going to have to take carson out. that's one microcosm and one state. you have to go through iowa and new hampshire first. people have no idea. they can't coalesce. >> i'm waiting for the trump-cruz clash. i think cruz is so busy trying to run to marco rubio's right on immigration and rubio is so busy trying to run to rubio's right on national security, we've forgotten that trump is there waiting to get attacked by cruz. >> they have. i wonder how that plays out, germaniy. he has the severity ked it.

>> he's the only one that would have the credibility, with the right to do it. >> i'm not sure if the establishment would hate a donald trump nomination or a ted cruz nomination more. >> you know what, i would actually guess right now they might hate a cruz nomination more. >> i think you're right. >> because it's the devil you know in that case. >> he has no friends. >> he has no friend in the senate. >> i think mitch mcconnell might pull the lover for donald. >> they will go into the states if where cruz is campaigning and work against him publicly. >> but for who? >> against cruz. anybody but cruz. >> all right. well, after a quick break, msnbc live is going to pick up the breaking news out of paris that

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