the most deadly weapon. there were these very complicated suicide vests that were essentially used just to kill the assailants. but what killed people were the guns. and that's something that hangs over all of us in a country with the amount of guns we have. jim rich and joy reid, thank you both. that is "all in" for this evening. "the rachel maddow show" starts right now. good evening, rachel. >> good evening, chris. good to have you back, my friend. >> thank you. >> and thanks to you at home for joining us this hour. in 1991 in louisiana the democratic party nominated this man to run for governor of that state. he had actually served a couple of terms already as governor in the 197 0z and then he was away and then he served another term as governor in the '80s. even so with all that experience he was not what you'd call a good candidate for governor. he had the advantage of being well known and hilarious, but he was kind of a creep. he had been the kind of governor that had to take time off from his gubernatorial duties to, you know, go on trial for a variety of criminal offenses. but he was always reliably very funny.

at one point in one of his campaigns he described his opponent as "so slow it takes him an hour and a half to watch "60 minutes."" his name was edwin edwards. and when the democratic party picked him as their nominee for governor in louisiana in 1991, me knew that it was going to be a tough one with edwin edwards at the top of the ticket. and it would have been a tough one that year except for the fact that in that same year in 1991 the republican party also had to pick their nominee for governor and in 1991 in louisiana the republican party chose as their nominee for governor the grand wizard of the ku klux klan. sorry. the former grand wizard of the ku klux klan. david duke. and with david duke at the top of the ticket for the republican party, yeah, the republican party lost that one. david duke lost badly that year to edwin edwards and edwin edwards, true to form, went on to serve eight years in federal prison. fast forward, though, to this

year, this weekend in fact, and the republican party this year reaped the benefits of not running david duke as their candidate for governor this year. they instead ran this guy. and in election results that were kind of a shocker for a state as red as louisiana, this weekend turned out to be the worst loss by any republican gubernatorial candidate in louisiana since david duke, since they ran david duke nobody has lost as bad as david vitter lost this weekend. david vitter lost this weekend to democrat john bel edwards by 12 points. which would be huge in any state but is particularly huge in a red state. it is a loss so devastating that david vitter also announced immediately that he won't even try to hold on to his u.s. senate seat next year, he is done. barring some bizarre louisiana-style political comeback, looks like david vitter's political career is over. it only took that hooker thing eight years to get rid of him. but david vitter will be gone as of next year, when his seat comes up for re-election.

and speaking of gone, david vitter was running to try to succeed bobby jindal as governor of that state. bobby jindal did not have the option of running for re-election. he's term limited out as governor. governor jindal had hoped of course that his next job in politics would be president of the united states, a job he was actively campaigning for until last tuesday, when bobby jindal quit the presidential race. and now we know, had bobby jindal not quit on tuesday, had he waited just a few more days until the end of last week to make up his mind about whether he was going to quit, bobby jindal might not have quit if he waited a few more days because on friday, a few days after he got out of the race, he, at least what remained of the theoretical idea of his campaign, got some good news. cnn announced on friday, ironically enough, that they would finally adopt the debate qualifying criteria that bobby jindal had been advocating for for weeks.

the jindal campaign obviously consistently did terribly nationwide, but they were starting to do okay in iowa and the jindal campaign had been arguing for weeks that it shouldn't just be national polls that qualify candidates to get into the debates, it should also be specifically early polls in iowa and new hampshire. cnn finally agreed to that demand last friday. three days after bobby jindal quit. that debate announcement from cnn would have been great news for bobby jindal if his campaign had just lasted long enough for him to take advantage of. that change in the debate qualifying criteria would have been really good for bobby jindal. it has turned out so far, though, to be very bad news for kentucky senator and presidential candidate rand paul. cnn has been pretty clear about which polls it's going to use from both the early states and national polling to qualify the republican candidates for its next debate, both for the main stage and for the kids' table. and there's a few weeks to go before that next debate happens. a few weeks to go before cnn cuts off its consideration of

qualifying polls. things might get better for rand paul. but right now if cnn were making their decision today based on the criteria they have laid out, rand paul would not make the stage. rand paul would not make the main presidential debate stage. he would be relegated for the first time ever to the kids' table. down there with lindsey graham. and that's because this new criteria gives special weight to a candidate's standing in iowa and new hampshire and it turns out rand paul is doing pretty terribly in both iowa and new hampshire. and now on top of that dire political situation for rand paul federal prosecutors have just brought another criminal indictment in iowa against two guys running the rand paul super pac this year as well as another staffer who worked for his dad's presidential campaign in 2012. these three rand paul and ron wall staffers already went on trial in iowa this year on charges of basically covering up an iowa caucus's bribery scheme in 2012 for rand paul's dad.

and they went on trial earlier this year, there was a conviction on one charge in that case but there was a hung jury on some of the other charges. and now prosecutors have kind of surprised everybody by bringing a new round of indictments in that case against those same guys. so now the few rand paul supporters that there are in iowa are going to be treated once again to the spectacle of ron paul and rand paul staffers being put back on criminal trial in iowa again. so, you know, political news mostly stopped or at least just spun its wheels for the last ten days or so in the aftermath of the paris attacks. but now in quick succession we have had this huge upset in red state louisiana with a democrat winning the governor's race there by a bigger margin than we have seen in that state since the republicans ran david duke as their candidates for governor in 1981. we've also seen this big change in the way republicans are going to qualify to get into at least the next debate. we've seen the potentially

devastating consequences of that change on rand paul's attempted candidacy for president as well as this further bad news for rand paul with his staffers getting put on trial again in iowa. but the biggest political news, at least on the republican side, it does continue to be at the top of the ticket, where since the paris attacks things have taken a re dark turn, particularly as of the last couple of days. >> we're wing all over -- do i hear somebody over there? [ boos ] you know, you have one guy over there shouting. we have thousands of people -- and you'll read about him tomorrow. they'll say oh, the room had a picket. yeah, get him the hell out of here, will you, please? [ cheers and applause ] get him out of here. throw him out. you know, we had it the other day.

i got criticized. we had it the other night. i had a lot of people. and one guy who was seriously obese. he complained when i mentioned that food stamps -- we have a lot of people on food stamps. and the guy went crazy. and they said that wasn't politically correct. who cares? we all have a weight problem. yeah, you can get him out. yeah, get him out. get him the hell out of here. get him out of here. get out! get him out of here. >> he doesn't need to keep saying "get him out" because people aren't getting him out. he keeps saying get him out, get him out, get him out because he likes the way the crowd reacts when he says it and he says it more. mr. trump is used to having protesters of different stripes interrupt him at campaign events. mr. trump used to say when he would yell at protester that's they should be taken out of the room he used to say don't hurt him, nobody hurt him. he used to say that. he doesn't say that anymore. and in fact in this case a cnn

reporter was close enough to see what happened when the crowd responded to this lone black lives matter protester mr. trump was shouting at from the podium. cnn's reporter, who was right there, says the man was ultimately pushed to the ground and hit and kicked by about a half dozen people at the trump rally. mr. trump then went on the fox news channel and said if the man had in fact been beaten up by his supporters at that event maybe that was a good thing. >> but i will tell you that the man that was, i don't know, you say roughed up, he was so obnoxious and so loud. he was screaming. i had 10,000 people in the room yesterday. 10,000 people. and this guy started screaming by himself. and i don't know. rough up? he should have been -- maybe he should have been roughed up. >> after that morning appearance on fox news, mr. trump then tweeted this wildly inaccurate but conveniently very racist little illustration of crime

statistics, which are made up to wrongly give the impression that basically it's black people who commit all the murders in the united states. this is not true information. the information on this that donald trump tweeted. but just in case don't get the implications of it or maybe you're confused because you looked up the real numbers and they don't -- in case of confusion, conveniently there's also a pictogram. there's also the scary black guy with a gun next to the wrong statistics to create the feeling he wants you to have about this even if your mind tells you this can't possibly be true because it's in fact not true. it's like the picture menu when you can't quite get out the word sausage, eggs, waffle, you just have to point. racist feeling. but now, what might conceivably, who knows, might conceivably become an issue for mr. trump or at least it may become something he will have to creatively address in his campaign, is a lurid lie that he has made up entirely about 9/11. nobody really knows if he has

made this claim before in his public life but he appears to have made it for the first time as a presidential candidate this weekend at that raucous, raw rally that involved a protester getting beaten up in birmingham, alabama on saturday. >> hey, i watched when the world trade center came tumbling down, and i watched in jersey city, new jersey where thousands and thousands of people were cheering as that building was coming down. thousands of people were cheering. >> jersey city, new jersey is not just him stuttering over the name new jersey. it's a real place. it's right across the hudson river from lower manhattan. jersey city is also not just some random place in new jersey when you're talking about 9/11. jersey city had a very specific role on the morning of 9/11. because not only do people in jersey city have a completely

direct and unobstructed close view of what happened at the world trade center, jersey city is also a place where a lot of people commute to and from manhattan by boat, by ferry. and what that meant specifically on the morning of september 11th, 2001 is that people who were injured at the trade center, cops and firefighters and office workers and locals who were hurt in the collapse of the trade center, people who were injured were put op boats in lower manhattan and they were ferried straight across the hudson river to the closest point, which was jersey city. jersey city got the injured that day. their waterfront was basically an extension of ground zero. it was part of the crisis. it was part of the tragedy. it is really right there. and now the republican presidential front-runner, donald trump, says he has seen the footage of thousands of people in little jersey city that day cheering as the towers went down. he says it not only happened, he says he saw it happen, everybody saw it happen because it was all over tv. don't you remember? it is utterly, fantastically untrue.

but he is sticking with it. >> you know, you raised some eyebrows yesterday with comments you made at your latest rally. i want to show them relating to 9/11. >> hey, i watched when the world trade center came tumbling down, and i watched in jersey city, new jersey where thousands and thousands of people were cheering as that building was coming down. thousands of people were cheering. >> you know, the police say that didn't happen and all those rumors have been on the internet for some time. so did you misspeak -- >> it did happen. i saw it. it was on television. >> you saw it with your own eyes? police say it didn't happen. >> people that were cheering on the other side of new jersey where you have large arab populations. they were cheering as the world trade center came down. i know it might be not politically correct for you to talk about it, but there were people cheering as that building came down. as those buildings came down.

and that tells you something. it was well covered at the time, george. now, i know they don't like to talk about it, but it was well covered at the time. >> it was not well covered at the time. there is in fact no record of what mr. trump is talking about ever. not one instance of this being televised footage of people cheering, let alone being -- let alone it being well covered at the time on television. television archives from 2001 are not like in a black hole somewhere where nobody can check them. this is the real universe where we can check these things. i mean, whatever tape he's talking about seeing could be produced if that tape existed. the reason it hasn't been produced is because that tape does not exist, because it didn't happen. because in fact jersey city was right in the middle of it on 9/11. which is the record that we do have. and there was an incredible moment today when the other leading candidate for the republican presidential nomination right now, ben carson, for a time today he backed donald trump up on this lie. which was like finding yourself going down a rabbit hole. you get to the bottom of the

rabbit hole and hey, look, there's another rabbit hole there, let's go down that one too. >> were american muslims in new jersey cheering on 9/11 when the towers fell? did you hear about that or see that? >> yes. >> yes. can you expand on that? >> well, you know, there are going to be people who respond inappropriately virtually everything. i think that was an inappropriate response. i don't know if on the basis of that you can say all muslims are bad people. i really think that would be a stretch. >> did you see that happening, though, on 9/11? >> i saw the film of it, yeah. >> in new jersey. >> yes. >> just to follow up on my question of 9/11, you say you saw the film. what film are you referring to? >> the news reels. >> the news coverage from the time of 9/11. >> correct. >> not correct. neither the news reels nor the film nor the news footage exists. and we're now at a really interesting moment because where

we're at as of tonight is that dr. ben carson's campaign has taken back what ben carson said about that today. after he made those remarks earlier today, his campaign put out a statement saying oops, dr. carson didn't mean it. "dr. carson doesn't stand by the statements that were reported today. he was thinking and hearing something differently at the time. he does apologize to anybody offended by that, for sure." for sure. ben carson's campaign took it back. donald trump has not taken it back. so now the man who's standing as republican presidential front-runner has only been shored up and in fact boosted since the paris attacks. now he wants to stay on record sticking with his claims that policywise we might need a registry of every muslim in the united states and policywise we definitely need surveillance of mosques but he also factually insists that there was widespread television news coverage which he says he saw

with his own eyes, moving pictures shot from life which showed american muslims in jersey city by the thousands celebrating the fall of the twin towers on 9/11 as it happened. donald trump is sticking with that utterly false claim. after his rally tonight in columbus, ohio mr. trump spoke to nbc's katy tur off camera, but i do have the transcript of those remarks. i'm going to read to you from the transcript here. just so we can be totally clear. donald trump. "there were tailgate parties. the washington post reported it. the liberal media didn't like what they reported and so they kept it quiet." katy tur. "the washington post said it was a number of people? trump, they said tailgate party. thousands. they are tremendous numbers of people. i also had hundreds of tweets saying you're right mr. trump, i saw it myself, we wanted to say it. hundreds of witnesses. we are looking for other articles. >> katy tur. where did you see the video? we can't find anything in our archives. others can't find anything in

their. >> trump i saw video, it was on television. how would i know? you'll have to find it. i've also seen it all overt internet. i've seen it on the internet over the years. i've seen it on the internet. no, he hasn't. it did not happen. that was donald trump speaking to nbc news -- this afternoon. i said it was tonight. that conversation happened this afternoon. but what he describes there, thousands of people in jersey city cheering for the towers falling on 9/11, that did not happen. at some level who cares about the political impact of statements like those, right? i mean, the serious question, with specific statements like that, not just your run-of-the-mill lie, the specific question now, the serious question now is what do statements like those do to our country? regardless of what they do to any one candidate or any one campaign. stay with us. hey, you forgot the milk! that's lactaid. right. 100% real milk, just without the lactose.

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don't be mad.

but just in the last hour i feel dutybound to inform you that republican presidential front-runner donald trump has wrapped another campaign rally where he did just again address his claim to have seen thousands and thousands of people in new jersey cheering as the twin towers fell on 9/11. so again, don't be mad. we will have that ahead. plus the big news we are expecting from president obama tomorrow morning. stay with us. lots to come tonight.

i saw people getting together and in fairly large numbers celebrating as the world trade center was coming down, killing thousands of people, thousands and thousands of people. people are still dying over what happened at the world trade center and they're dying a terrible death. and i saw people, and i saw them on television, and i read about it on the internet, and i read about it, so they said, oh, we can't find, mr. trump. the reporters are calling all

day. all night. they want to find out did trump make a mistake? >> a mistake? that's one thing to call it. the television footage, the widespread television footage of thousands of people in jersey city, new jersey celebrating as the world trade center towers fell on 9/11 is something that does not exist in real life. it has apparently become a central claim shoring up the candidacy of the leading republican contender for president of the united states. joining us now to help understand the impact of all this is my friend dr. welton gaddy, the senior pastor of the baptist church in monroe, louisiana. also president emeritus of the interfaith alliance. welcome. it's great to see you here. >> thank you, rachel. >> so the first political instinct in a weird moment like this, when a candidate is apparently turning his campaign to be based on something that is really truly factually inaccurate, the first political instinct is to wonder whether this hurts the candidate, whether this hurts that

candidate's campaign. i want to ask you if you think there is a greater harm to this or this does something hurtful to the country. >> no, rachel, we've been together a lot of times, talked about a lot of things. i'm probably more sad tonight than i've ever been when you and i have talked. when truth is dispensable, democracy is in trouble. if we can't trust people running for the highest office in the land, then who can we trust? and what does that mean about moving forward? we're seeing both american values and religious values trampled on. we're having candidates and other politicians who are giving god a bad name and who are turning their back on the constitution of the united states.

the ramifications of all of that are much broader and much more serious than you and i can describe in the time we have tonight.

>> thank you, rachel, i appreciate it. >> thank you. >> in terms of the news cycle here.

in terms of how much he's going to be willing to walk this back and when he's going to do it and under what circumstances, but i do think that this operates on a different level. this is one thing about his politics and american politics and another thing as values as a country and how they get articulated and what is truly out of bounds. this is testing us. stay with us.do modern times? it's a housewife who's in control of the finances. actually, any wife, husband, or human person can use progressive's name your price tool to take control of their budget. and while the men do the hard work of making money, she can get all the car insurance options her little heart desires. or the women might do the hard work of making money. [ chuckling ] women don't have jobs. is this guy for real? modernizing car insurance with -- that's enough out of you! the name your price tool, only from progressive. where is your husband?

so this is a short week in american business and school and politics because of the

thanksgiving holiday. but there is a thing to watch for that may happen when everybody is away on thanksgiving break. and it has to do with this scene today in paris. this is french president francois hollande in the middle there. and over on the right standing right next to him is the british prime minister david cameron. david cameron traveled to paris today to meet with francois hollande. the two men made a trip to the bataclan music hall where they paid their respects to the people who are killed in the attacks last week. upon the prime minister's return home to the u.k. after that meeting david cameron said that he will call for the british military to start flying air strikes against isis inside syria. that's something that the british have not done up until this point. the britons -- the british, excuse me, have been bombing isis inside iraq, but they very explicitly rejected that idea of extending that military campaign inside syria as well. and it's not like it hasn't been up for debate. in 2013 around the time that

president obama was considering starting american air strikes in syria, the british prime minister david cameron proposed that britain would do so as well. he went before his parliament. he called on parliament to authorize british military action inside syria. and the british parliament including lots of members of his own party, they said no. it was this extraordinary and very unexpected moment. >> it is clear to me that the british parliament, reflecting the views of the british people, does not want to see british military action. i get that, and the government will act accordingly. >> that was a three-line whip on the vote. we don't have things like that exactly here. but in british politics if you're a member of parliament and you defy a three-line whip from your party that is supposed to be such a terrible political offense that you can be kicked out of your party for doing that. but on that day in 2013 when david cameron went to parliament and asked to bomb syria, so many

members of david cameron's own party defied him and defied the three-line whip that they couldn't even afford to enforce that old rule. they would have had to kick out two dozen members of parliament, two dozen members of the conservative party. they would have collapsed their own government. but the brits, even the brits in david cameron's own conservative party, they were just not having it, and that was their shocking and surprising way of saying no to the question of air strikes inside syria. that was 2013. now david cameron says he's going to go back and try again. on thursday of this week, on thanksgiving, we are expecting david cameron to officially make his case again to parliament that the uk should start bombing inside syria. we don't know exactly when the vote is going to be but thanksgiving day is when david cameron will make that case. meanwhile, look at the schedule for french president francois hollande this week. he met with david cameron today. tomorrow he's flying to the u.s. to meet with president obama. then he returns to france to meet with german chancellor angela merkel on wednesday.

then on thursday he meets with the prime minister of italy but only in the morning because thursday afternoon he has to fly to russia to go meet with vladimir putin. that's all this week. that's all between now and thursday. and it's no secret what francois hollande is trying to accomplish with this whirlwind schedule of meetings. the first french air strikes against isis in syria after the paris attacks came just two days after the attacks. french fighter jets dropped bombs inside syria. and they took off from bases in the united arab emirates and from jordan in order to do that. those have been the sort of home bases for french operations so far. they've launched air strikes against isis in the last week from bases in those two countries, uae and jordan. that all changed today, when the french started taking off from their own floating air base that just arrived in the region. today france announced that the charles de gaulle aircraft carrier has arrived in the eastern mediterranean and it has already started launching fighter jets to drop bombs inside syria. francois hollande says the arrival of that aircraft carrier

triples france's military capacity to fight isis in syria. so they've got an aircraft carrier there now. france is now literally in terms of their number of planes, they are tripling down on their military fight against isis. this wasn't something they were doing for show after the attacks. they are going for it. david cameron is now seeking british military involvement in syria as well after meeting with french president francois hollande. and tomorrow the french president will come here to talk to president obama. president obama's going to host the french president in the oval office. the two of them are set to discuss the fight against isis and the whole issue of syria. they are then expected to hold a joint press conference where presumably president obama will announce something. if past is prologue, he will announce tomorrow some new action that the u.s. will be taking in the wake of the paris attacks in order to target isis. what specifically will francois hollande ask the united states to do that we are not already doing?

are we about to have some change in u.s. policy toward isis and some change in the u.s. military effort in syria? that press conference is going to happen around lunchtime tomorrow. you will see it here live on msnbc. watch this space. here's a little healthy advice. eat well, live well, and take of what makes you, you. right down to your skin with aveeno® aveeno® daily moisturizing lotion with the goodness of active naturals® oat and 5 vital nutrients for healthier looking skin in just one day. healthy skin equals beautiful skin. and for shower softness, add the body wash, too! aveeno® naturally beautiful results®

april 2009 one of mexico's biggest soccer teams played a key match in one of the largest stadiums in the entire world, but not a single fan was there. each of the 95,000 seats at estadio azteca were empty. it was the same scene in the city's olympic stadium. the game had been sold out but the home team ended up playing before 80,000 empty seats. across the city sunday mass was canceled. the city's leading cardinal instead offered up prayers from the altar of an empty cathedral. schools across the city were closed. 7 million students from kindergarten all the way to college students were told they had to stay home. museums were closed, concerts were canceled, people were warned not to attend movies and public events. for more than a week a city of 21 million people just became a ghost town. and it was because of the flu.

a swine flu outbreak that struck the mexico city region particularly hard. it killed more than 1,200 people in that country. that was 2009. four years later it was april 2013, and a city in this country chaim came to a standstill but for a very different reason. it was days after the boston marathon bombing before police officers found and engaged in a brutal gun battle with the suspected bombers. one of the terrorist attackers from the marathon bombing was killed in that shootout, but the other one managed to flee the scene. and while the active manhunt continued for dzhokhar tsarnaev the governor of massachusetts took unprecedented action. deval patrick gave a news conference at dawn in which he asked residents of the greater boston area to shelter in place indefinitely. and people did. from dawn until after sundown the city was deserted. public transportation was shut down. a temporary no-fly zone was imposed over the city.

people in boston, cambridge, brooklyn, watertown, they all stayed inside their apartments and houses as more than 9,000 law enforcement officials went door to door hunting for the escaped boston marathon bombing suspect. and it worked. they got him. he was hiding out in somebody's yard in watertown. he was found in a boat -- he found a boat with a cover over it. he crawled inside. camped out in one of those areas where residents had been told to stay inside and shelter in place. so it's not like it's totally unprecedented. it happens sometimes. cities get shut down for 12 hours or maybe for a week for a swine flu outbreak. for a manhunt maybe? this time it's brussels. and this time it's not because of something that has happened already in brussels. and it's not because of something that has happened already in brussels. it's because of something they say they're worried about that might be about to happen. they're calling it a serious and imminent threat. the city is locked down. brussels is a huge city. it's a city roughly the size of dallas. it's the de facto capital of europe.

it's where the european union is based. it's where nato is based. brussels has been under lockdown for three days now and counting. schools, universities, the whole metro system remain closed. they're saying probably until wednesday, even then though the entire transportation system might not go completely online again. usually, brussels is bustling in the leadup to the holiday season. they have a christmas market there that attracts about 1 1/2 million visitors annually. they're setting it up this year anyway in the hopes that it can open on friday, but that too doesn't seem like a sure thing right now. for now even the holiday season is on hold. and even though things like this happen in some cities, what's happening now in brussels does feel like the only thing like this that has ever happened in modern times. joining us now live from brussels is ryan heat, senior european correspondent for politico. mr. heath, thanks for being with us. appreciate your time. >> good evening, rachel. >> what do we know about the basis of the threat that led to this unprecedented shutdown? do we have any leads on what

kind of information they got that led them to do this? >> no. because we've got a very complicated security apparatus here in belgium. it often doesn't talk to the other component parts of that apparatus let alone the media or the public. so we're very thin on the information. but what we were told is it's multiple layers of threat. it could be multiple attacks in multiple locations, possibly organized from multiple locations as well, including what's become known as europe's terror capital, the district of molenbeek right here just a mile or two down the road from where we're standing right now. so everyone was put on high alert on saturday. people were willing to comply from the beginning. belgians are generally good natured, willing to listen to instruction. but we started to see people question whether they should continue to be doing that and also question why suddenly schools and transport might reopen on wednesday when none of the main suspects have been caught. i'm melissa rehberger we have some breaking news out of

turkey this morning where there are reports that a russian warplane was shot down near the turkish boarder with syria. the turkish president says the aircraft was shot down by turkish warplanes after violating the country's airspace. however, the russian ministry of defense says the plane was shot from the ground, and was flying above syrian territory at the time. turkmen fighters say they are searching for two pilots in the turkish mountains right now. nbc news' joe fryer is in london with more details for us. joe, what do we know now? >> good morning, melissa. as you mentioned, some disagreement over exactly what happened. turkey has confirmed that it shot down a russian warplane near the syrian border this morning. turkey claims the plane had violated turkish airspace, ignoring repeated warnings, ten warnings in five minutes, according to turkish armed forces. now russia's defense ministry says, quote, we're looking into the circumstances of the crash of the russian jet. the ministry of defense would like to stress that the plane

was over the syrian territory throughout the flight. you can see there's footage from turkish tv at the scene that shows a warplane down in flames in a wooded area with a long plume of smoke trailing behind it. russia says that the plane was downed by artillery fire. but turkey claims that its own f-16s fired on the russian plane, after it ignored several warnings in the last few days the russian and syrian regime have been teaming up, bombing in this area. so that's what's been happening, and it's been a tense area over the last few days. as this war continues to escalate in the region. but for now, some disagreement between russia and turkey over exactly what happened. what led to this russian plane being shot down. >> joe, as you're just talking right now, the video that we're seeing is what appears to be the pilots parachuting hopefully to safety. what do we know about the search for them at this point?

>> yeah, and right now we don't know much at this point. the video probably tells more of the story than anything. we see the parachuting happening. what we don't know is this is a tense region. at this point we don't really know what happened after, whether it was the pilot or whether anyone else who was in the plane safely made it on the ground. we know this is a tense region with a lot of battling going on. at this point we don't know the status of the people who were in the plane, we're awaiting word to find out what happened, if they were in safety, if they've been rescued or taken from the region or if that has not happened yet. >> joe, thank you. we are joined on the phone now by colonel jack jacobs, our military analyst, and what do you make of all this? obviously it's a convoluted and quite frankly a scary situation. >> well, listen, this is a difficult area on the border between turkey and syria. the russians have been operating there. the turks have been operating there, too. there are ethnic turkamen who are on the border area. turkey has been protecting them

for a long, long time. and turkey has recently been complaining that the russians, instead of bombing isis, or even the opponents of assad, have been bombing turkamen villages. the information i have is that, in fact, the russian aircraft strayed over the border from syria, into turkey. that the russian aircraft was shot down by fire from turkish f-16s, which we have sold them, and that the -- there are two pilots -- well actually one pilot and one weapons officer, both of whom ejected. and who were picked up by helicopter when they landed on the syrian side of the border. this is going to complicate matter, and it's exactly the kind of thing which we've been talking about for a long time when russia went in to syria. and we thought that there was

going to be the possibility of errors being made, and allies being strafed or bombed, friendly aircraft, allied aircraft being shot down by russians or vice versa. and it's exactly this kind of thing that supposedly protocols were established to prevent. this is also going to complicate matters today, when russian president hollande meets with obama. prior to hollande's going to russia to talk with putin, the conversation today between obama and hollande, is my guess, is going to revolve very seriously around russia, how to deal with putin, and how to deal with the potential for complications just like this, melissa. >> you mentioned protocol. can you be more specific about that? is it international protocol

dealing with boundaries and airspace? and do you believe one way or the other that that was somehow violated in this case? as far as -- so far? >> well the turks say that the russians violated their airspace, that they warned them to go back to the syrian side of the border and that those warnings were ignored and that's why they shot it down. but the protocols i'm talking about are the kinds of rules of engagement that are established any time you have a multinational force that is a combined force, or even a joint force that is several different forces that belong to the same country. operating in the same area. because if you don't establish rules of engagement, these kinds of protocols, then you're bound to have problems with friendly aircraft dropping bombs on

friendly -- friendly troops on the ground of a different country, and so on. and you have to be very meticulously organized. very, very specific. who talks to whom? who's going to control the air space? who do you talk to if you have troops on the ground in a region where there are aircraft from other countries and so on? very, very complicated. and so far, there hasn't been a concrete establishment of these kinds of things, so that incidents like this won't happen. now, of course, in this particular case it looks like protocols notwithstanding, rules of engagement notwithstanding, russian airplanes, according to the turks, came across its border, and refused to go back in to syrian airspace. fairly blatant, if true, and you would expect that the turks were very much concerned about that aircraft, and just shot it down. which is something that just about anybody, any other

country, would do, as well. it remains to be seen whether or not the account that the turks are giving are accurate. but the truth will be able to be established very, very quickly, given the electronic means, gps, and recorders that we have now. melissa? >> have you -- what do we even compare this to? in like a historical way, where you have this one space in the world where you have several different countries engaging, as you said, i can't remember your specific words, but where protocol isn't necessarily clear, and where do we go from here? >> well, it's an interesting question. my memory's not what it should be. but honestly, i can't remember a circumstance in which you had a situation quite like this, with more than two countries, the united states, russia, france, and other allies, operating

against forces in one country, and particularly those in which two countries that are not hostile. let's take for example the united states and russia. not antagonistic toward one another. they're not belligerent on either side of the conflict. supporting opposite sides of a conflict in the same country. i mean that's a recipe -- that really is a recipe for disaster. and i can't think of a way to -- there's no way to fix it, unless the united states and russia sit down and hash out who's going to support whom. i mean this is further complicated now by the isis -- with isis having downed a russian airplane, got the russians' attention, who before were only concerned about supporting assad. somebody whom we are supporting, whose opponents were supporting. it's really quite astonishing, and i can't remember a circumstance exactly like this before.

>> colonel jack jacobs, would you just hold on for a second. we want to go back to nbc news' joe fryer who is in london, and who's been gathering more details for us. joe, what do you know at this point? >> melissa at this point we're still waiting to find out exactly what is the status of those who were in the plane that was shot down, this dramatic video that we've been watching for the last few minutes shows the plane really going down in flames, into a wooded area. we also see a parachute, presumably with the pilot or someone who was in the plane coming down to the ground, what's unclear at this point is the status, whether people were able to get to the pilot, and those who were in the plane, and rescue them, or not. so we're still waiting for more information on that. what we know at this point is there is really a dispute between turkey and russia over exactly what happened here. turkey confirms that it shot down a russian warplane near the syrian border this morning. turkey claims the plane had violated turkish air space, was given repeated warnings, ten warnings in five minutes, before

two f-16s from turkey fired on the plane. now, sha says it's waiting to get more information but stresses that the plane was over the syrian territory throughout the flight, russia has also believes that whoever fired on the plane it was artillery fire and came from the ground. this has been a tense area of fighting in the last few days with russia and syrian forces doing what they can in this area in the battle with isis, of course, all of this comes in the wake of the attacks in paris. we know later today, french president hollande will be meeting with president obama at the white house to discuss their strategy moving forward with isis, and part of this strategy, and part of their discussion is no doubt going to focus on russia's role in everything moving forward, and hollande will also meet with russian president vladimir putin later this week. melissa? >> joe, nbc news' joe fryer thank you very much for that

update. let's go back to colonel jack jacobs who is on the phone with us this morning. we were just hearing from joe fryer who said describing this obviously as a very tense situation, and he can't think of a better word, but it still sounds like an understatement. so when we're talking about a dispute over borders, and air space, how would you read into like the tone of that? and where this -- i guess what i'm asking is, where -- what is it going to lead to? >> well, i don't know what it's going to lead to. except we hope some discussions about how to operate in the area. it is a wake-up call for those who've been fairly sanguine will whether or not there could be errors like this. it's interesting to me that the russians initially just flat denied it, which is exactly what you would expect them to do. now the tone in the last statement that was made is, while not conciliatory, does leave open the possibility that the -- that the russians may

have missed -- pilot made a mistake in crossing the border. because they've said that they were going to wait and see what a preliminary investigation would turn up. if this -- this border is fairly -- it's fairly easy to distinguish. everybody's got gps. the aircraft are talk to satellites all the time. it's -- it's a -- if the turks are correct, it indicates that the pilot made a big error. thought that he was over syrian airspace, and ignored entreaties to go back to syria. however, it's also possible that the russians were trying to test turkey's air defenses. turkey gets a little bit in the way of what russia is trying to accomplish by knocking over assad's opponents in the region.

because turkey protects that border area, including the area inside syria where large groups of ethnic turkamen live and the turks have been protecting them for a long time. the likelihood is that nothing -- this will not escalate. but it does point out -- it does come at a very interesting time with with hollande meeting with obama later today, and with then hollande going to russia to have conversations with putin, and you can bet this will be at the top of the discussion. melissa? >> well, hopefully you're right. and that it won't escalate. this is just a very scary and -- and complicated situation with this -- with these borders and we have so many important meetings going on this week. i guess the only thing we can hope for is that this will become more organized. and not the opposite.

>> you're quite right. >> yeah. colonel jack jacobs, thank you very, very much. we will continue to check in with you as we learn more about this breaking news situation and the turkish and syrian border. we'll be back with more. and good morning, everyone, i'm shannon mulaire. we have some breaking news at this hour. a russian warplane was shot out of the sky near the turkish border with syria. turkish armed forces say the plane was shot down after violating the country's airspace. this just hours before president obama is set to meet with french president francois hollande later this morning to discuss plans to defeat isis. nbc's joe fryer joins us now from london with the latest. good morning, joe. what can you tell us? >> good morning, shannon. turkey has confirmed that it shot down a russian warplane near the syrian border this morning. turkey claims the plane had violated turkish airspace, ignoring repeated warnings, ten warnings in five minutes,

according to turkish armed forces. now russia's defense ministry says, quote, we are looking into the circumstances of the crash of the russian jet, the ministry of defense would like to stress that the plane was over the syrian territory throughout the flight. russia says the plane was downed by artillery fire, but turkey claims that its f-16s fired on the russian plane, after it ignored several warnings. now, video that we have been watching for the last several minutes, dramatic footage from turkish tv, shows a warplane going down in flames in a wooded area, with a long plume of smoke trailing behind it. the video shows a pilot parachuting down, so far, though, no updates on the status of anyone who was in the warplane. russia is an ally of syria's assad, and has been helping with the battle against isis. this all comes as president obama prepares today to host french president francois hollande at the white house where they're expected to discuss efforts to defeat isis. and of, co,