with us on set we have washington anchor for bbc world news america katty kay. former governor of vermont, former chairman of the democratic national committee howard dean, committee, howard dean and in washington, eugene robinson along with willie, joe and me. we'll begin this morning with breaking news. we've learned that turkey has shot down a russian military jet. it happened along the border between turkey and syria. footage from turkish television shows a warplane going down in flames in what looks like a wooded area. you can see a plume of smoke trailing behind the plane. the turkish government said the russian jet violated its air space. the jet was warned ten times before being shot down. let's bring in nbc news chief foreign correspondent richard engel live in istanbul.

what more do we know at this point? >> reporter: there's a major dispute right now in the circumstances of this plane that was shot down. a russian sekoy 24, it was flying on a counterterrorism mission inside syria and that it was shot by ground fire, that the pilots ejected. the fate of the pilots at this stage is still unclear. the turkish government, however, has a different version of events. it said this russian jet violated turkish air space, was warn ten different times over the course of five minutes and then after being warned those ten times was engaged by two turkish operated by u.s. made american f-16 fighter jets and that it was shot down. a big question now, where are the pilots, what is the fate of the pilot.

there's a claim one of the pilots is dead. this has the potential to be very explosive, frankly. this is the first time in recent memory a nato country shot down a russian plane and it shows the complete lack of coordination that we're seeing in syria right now where you have the u.s. from turkey and other places bombing targets in syria, france doing the same, russia doing the same and very little efforts being made to deacon flict and coordinate that effort. >> richard engel live in istanbul, turkey. thank you very much. a lot of different potential problems. >> katy, you look what put has been doing. he's flexing his muscles. he's more popular at home, but

the costs are piling up quickly for him, commercial airliner shot down and now the humiliation of a plane shot out of the sky by turkey. >> yeah. you look at both china and russia over the past couple of years, and the fear of those countries flexing their muscles has always been it would lead to some kind of mistake and that the mistake would ignite some kind of military crisis. it looks in this case that you have jets, you know, flying over close to borders whether just inside syria or turkey and it's not first time that the turks have claimed russian jets have been flying over their air space. they did this right at the beginning of the russian exercises and now they've taken action. think about this for a moment. nato member country shot at a russian plane. >> let's say a nato country, howard dean, that most members of nato would just assume leave nato at this point because what

they are doing along the borders -- >> what they are not doing. >> what they are doing as far as shutting down any opposition, this is -- turkey -- this is another example of turkey playing by its own rules. >> that's true, joe, although i don't think nato would assume have turkey leave. it's a critical location geopolitically. it's a huge problem. suppressing the media, clearly having a road in civil liberties for everybody. arresting journalists he doesn't agree with. it's a huge problem. i think this is absolutely fascinating. i knot erdwan and he took umbrage of the russians violating air space. i'm astonished. we were talking about this in the makeup room.

i'm very surprised at this, that he would take on putin but knowing him a little bit i'm not entirely surprised. >> the arrogance he's shown over the year is surprising. he's coming off a big election win. you now have two, two leaders that have been more than problematic for the united states of america shooting at each other. >> and these are people that were supposed to be working with now in the fight against isis. russia is an awkward partner in syria. we're supposed to be making a coalition with them. turkey we want to help. it shows the complexities. >> erdwan is opposed to assad and the russians are supporting assad. >> it goes back to assad. that's why we in america are wondering why everybody is not fighting against assad. fighting against isis for a lot of people they see isis as, you know, they don't like the means but they see it as a great

counter balance. they want assad out. >> the saudis, the qataris, they see assad as a necessary evil to counter the rise of iran in the region. that's why they have been very reluctant to go all in against isis until aad goes. the geopolitics is looking at iron. this is very complicated for the west, this whole issue of the turks shooting down this russian plane and what's the implications for nato and turkey's allies and how do we put pressure on turkey to shut that 80 kilometers of border where the free flow of jihadi fighters are going in and out. >> until assad is gone we don't. we don't get the qataris, we don't get the saudis, we don't get nobody. >> the french military is carrying out new missions

targeting iraq and syria. fighter jets talk off from france yesterday. the charles de gaulle ship is the only one of its kind. fighter jets destroyed two targets in iraq early in the day. later on monday another air strike was carried out in raqqah, syria. these new missions come after french president francois hollande vowed to intensify air strikes against isis following the deadly attacks in paris. u.s. officials say american war planes destroyed nearly 300 isis oil tanker trucks yesterday along the syria-iraq border. officials say 24 precision guided bombs were dropped on the trucks near a fuel collection point. >> i just have to ask a question and other people ask the question at the white house briefing yesterday. willie, we've been asking the question for over a year now. why are you allowing isis to

make $5 mi0 million a year in o sales. why were we not cutting this off a year ago. >> i don't know the answer to that question but obviously they know it's a problem now. they blew up 160 the other day. >> i know. seriously? guess what, everybody got shot up in paris so we're going to destroy a command and krol center in raqqah. really? really? now? >> i'll give you rationale. they were concerned about the civilian truck drivers and not an to antogonizing anyone. >> francois hollande and obama will meet today. the french diplomat had an

interview with cbs news and basically said, guys, we don't have the luxury of time. we're sending a message to the american government, the american president. this is an imminent threat in our country. we're your allies, we need your help. they are getting pushed that way. you heard john kerry after our conversation yesterday other conversations saying we need to accelerate things. so the secretary of state now saying we have to move forward. >> now we have the secretary of state. here's the secretary of state seemed to be the only person that was as clueless as the imminent threat as maybe the president. katty kay i got to ask your view. this is not a republican or a democratic divide in america. all americans i've spoken with, and experts on both side of the aisle see this as a direct threat, almost an imminent threat whether it's diane feinstein or liberal columnist or whether it's republicans. what's the view from europe

right now about the president's -- i said he was in a bubble by himself. but his isolation? >> the single biggest criticism from american of foreign policy under barack obama is syria. it's not just now. it dates back when he didn't cross the red line. he actually had the french who were in the vanguard of european countries saying we should now bomb syria because they are using chemical weapons. he left them out to dry. so there's long misstanding mistrust from european allies about the white house's rochester to syria and it's sla escalated when europeans felt the threat and feet america has been divorced from it because of the atlantic ocean and harder for refugees and militants and jihadis to come here. >> as willie mentioned, president francois hollande arrives in washington this morning.

he will meet with president obama at the white house and the two leaders are expected to discuss greater cooperation between america and russia in the fight against isis. the u.s. hasn't ruled out cooperation but has been skeptical that president vladimir putin will focus on the militant group rather than the forces fighting syrian president bashar al assad. and the president will also pressure francois hollande to keep sanctions against rush in place for its recent actions in ukraine. >> let's bring in kerry simmons. what's prompting this? >> reporter: well, willie, the reason they are doing this is because effectively believe there continues to abby hadi cell on the loose and fear, the words are they fear an imminent attack. that's what it means to be at the highest state of alert. i suspect one of the questions

that president obama will have for the leader of france when they meet does europe have this under control and the answer may be shaky. here in brussels we watched people head to work today just going to work, an act of defiance, the morning commute meaning something different than it has ever meant here and people are saying to us they have to go to work, they have to get on with life as normal but at the same time the leader of belgium is saying on the one hand that he wants to keep the security alert high until next monday, on the other hand tomorrow he wants to start opening schools, for example. parents saying what does that mean? do i send my child to school or not? do i feel safe or not? over in france they now have found a suicide belt and a cell phone. that will give them more evidence, can you trace the explosives, you can trace the calls but still as we speak they fear one or more men are on the

loose with dangerous intent. >> thank you so much. you can't overstate how extreme that s-you have a russian capital lock down, men in ski masks, commandos with machine guns outnumbering commuters effectively in that city. amazing. >> did you see the twitter last night with the cats? >> yeah. >> the official said they didn't want people to do certain things to sho police movement from social media so people started setting up their cats pretending their cats had machine guns and cats glaring saying we will not be intimidated. we need to get some of those pictures up. i want to go to gene quickly. gene, i'm construction which what katty said that syria has been seen as a great american failure for our foreign policy for some time. we've been scratching our heads around this table for some time

how the french at times seem to be not just in this situation but going back a year, year and a half, two years more determined on the terror front at times than the united states. which actually does sho the difference in being separated by an ocean and that we have actually been quote leading from behind in the eyes of many of our johnsoneuropean allies. >> we scratched our head around this table what do you do about syria? you know, you see it today. the russians, you got the turkeys, the kurds. everybody has got different interests. and there are these shifting alliances and entities. but, you know, look everyone supports france and given what happened and president francois hollande and we wish, you know, them and him the best but we

should recall in libya, for example, it was the french and british saying we got to do something. we got to do something. let's going. so somewhat reluctant white house decided okay we'll go in with you. and then afterwards where are the french and where are the british and what has happened in libya since? so -- >> obviously, though, gene, libya is not syria. >> no. >> syria has been a case unto itself for the past three to four years. >> no. absolutely. my point there is that when we have these situations and when there are calls from our staunchest allies, you know, come help us, let's go do something, let's do something big, in fact it is in the final analysis the united states that will do the doing big, that's

going to essentially take responsibility and that's, that's the analogy with libya because everybody is saying, pointing at the white house saying look at the mess that libya became. you know, syria, something has to be done, yes, when it's done it's going to have to be the united states that does it and that's something we should think about. >> as the secretary of defense told us whatever it is it will take a long time. >> it is. i do wonder. i can't believe i'm saying this. i do wonder where the united nations is? >> i knew i would hear joe say that. >> i never thought i would say that. why is it we have to go along? why is it we can't -- i think at this point we have to treat syria and treat iraq like we treated germany after the second world war, because the threat that's posed not only to western civilization but throughout the

middle east is just as great as the threat following 1945, the chaos, the refugee crisis, all the things that europe faced in the fall of 1945. joe biden was right, we're going to have to realize there's no iraq. there's a sunni iraq, a kurdish iraq. there's a small shia minority and perhaps iran has a role in that. there's a larger sunni majority and that has to be split up. we created these lines. they are not real lines. they've never been real countries. and we're going to have not to have a divide and conquer approach but certainly a divide and defeat approach to isis. it's not 200,000 troops going in with a one size fits all. >> at that line of thinking the

longer you wait the worse it gets. if americans feel the way you do americans don't see a clear strategy for fighting isis coming from the white house. this according to new polling. a mere 23% think president obama has a clear plan of dealing with isis. the lowest number yet recorded. 66% do not think he has a clear plan which is a new high. nearly nine in ten republicans say he done have a plan and even democrats are split on the question. only 20% of americans say air strikes alone will defeat isis with nearly two out of three saying ground troops are necessary. but only 50% currently support sending u.s. troops into syria and iraq for battle. 42% oppose. in the poll conducted a week after the paris attacks americans are divided on allowing syria refugees into the u.s. 47% in favor, 50% opposed. finally looking at which of the

2016 candidates americans trust to handle the threat of terrorism, democrat hillary clinton bests all of her top republican opponents. jeb bush comes within three points for the republicans, 43% to clinton's 46 while ben carson performs the worse, down nine points to clinton on the question. >> that does surprise me because as ben carson said yesterday, willie, when thomasern w jeffer was drafting the constitution -- >> he saw it on the news reel. >> the video. >> exactly. >> he took it back. >> was he the one that stitched the flag. or was it betsy ross. hillary clinton did herself a lot of good with that speech a couple of days ago where she unlike the president she was direct, she was forceful, she

said isis need to be destroyed. you compare what hillary clinton's been doing with some of the more extreme voices from the right, and americans are going to go for a strong solid steady voice in a crisis like this. hillary clinton certainly in her speech before the council on foreign relations showed something a lot of republicans have shown but more importantly because we loin have one commander-in-chief, what the commander-in-chief hasn't shown and i think you may be right here and this is what's most irritating about barack obama's shameful performance over the past week and a half. i think actually ash carter in the interview that we had with him may have actually given the administration's position. this president can't bring himself to stop as peggy noonan

says stop trolling the republicans that tropical him and have nothing to do with the safety of the united states of america. i think he's so busy making a point that he can't state what his actual policy is. >> first of all, on several occasions he asked about them. so, secondly you talk about the republicans that are trolling him just to push back a little bit. some of the things that are being said in very heated political times as we're getting ready to watch a presidential election unfold are really damaging, hurtful, hateful statements that i think really tear at the fabric of who we are and do deserve being addressed. >> i will tell you, if i were in his position or if howard were in his position or if howard were governor running for re-election and there were a reat one and a half percent in the national polls saying things nasty about howard, howard would

be concerned about the people of vermont instead of the idiot at 1.5% saying stupid things. you don't take the bait. >> most of the time you don't. the problem is the refugees, what's been said about the refugees is really an attack on the united states constitution and who we are. we're a nation of immigrants and the idea that we should suddenly -- this is exactly what we did to the jews in 1938 and 1939. roosevelt didn't want to let in a whole lot of jewish refugees in the country. we know what the result was. for obama to push back on this, i'm with mika that's the right thing for the president to do is sho moral leadership instead of hatred. >> the president is presenting this as an either or. you can speak out strongly against isis and say we'll defeat and destroy them and going to be aggressive and seem to be standing shoulder to shoulder with your ally that's

just been attacked and also say what we stand for as americans. the refugee crisis, we're going to resolve that here. >> but you don't resolve it with the kind of hateful language we've seen in the last few days. you don't. one thing america and the west has going for it over the jihadis trying to destroy us is moral values. we have to maintain that moral high ground. if we cede the war of values -- >> we're not doing that. >> some of the language we've heard. >> again, you guys are focusing on the 1.5% or 2%, the michele bachmann and -- >> and donald trumps. >> all those governors. >> so do you throw in the 47 democrats. do you throw in chuck schumer? >> absolutely. you have to push back. >> you throw in the democrats. you the only the democratic governor of new hampshire. i say no. i say it is rational to say

let's see what our refugee situation is. let's see what the process is. let's see what the procession is for visitors visas. let's get people together on capitol hill which they are doing. >> that's not what they said. >> let's come forward with a bipartisan approach. i'm just talking about what, what reasonable responsible people in the center are saying and we're going to get a bipartisan approach. >> if that was the language that was being used and the tone that was being used that would be fine. when you start talking about registers, when you say you've seen thousands and thousands of people cheering when the towers came down when that didn't happen then you're wading into an area that place into our lesser angels. >> we have people that used to work on this network that used to call george w. bush a nazi. i'm saying, though, george w. bush wasn't going on the air the next day saying i've been called

a nazi or 352 to 40% of democras think i was responsible for 9/11. he watched "sportscenter" at night and didn't take the bait. if you're president of the united states you don't take the bait. we have to go to break. we'll get you, gene, on the other side of the break. >> still ahead, the chairman of the homeland security security secretary ron johnson and peggy noonan and former ambassador to iraq chris hill. has the u.s. failed to cut off isis from its billion dollar business. bloomberg business week reports on the obama administration's colossal miscalculation that kept the terror army flush with cash. first donald trump triples down on his comments about 9/11 but ben carson backs off. "morning joe" will be back in a moment.

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. pretty shot of new york city at 28 past the hour. republican front-runner donald trump has spent the last two days defending a storier told at a rally in alabama on saturday night about watching quote thousands of people celebrate in new jersey as the twin towers fell on 9/11. it's a claim he defended all weekend. >> i watched when the word trade center came tumbling down and i watched in jersey city, new jersey where thousands and thousands of people were cheering as that building was coming down. >> i saw it. >> you saw that with your own eyes? there were people cheering on the other side of new jersey where you have large arab populations. >> it's reported trump's recould alexandria flies in the face of all the evidence they could find and "the washington post" fact checker came to the same

conclusion awarding the claim four pinnochios. >> trump asked the post for an apology from an article of theres in 2001. in jersey city within hours of two jet liners plowing into world trade center law enforcement authorities detained and questioned a number of people who were allegedly seen celebrate stage tax and holding tailgate-style parties on rooftops while they watched the devastation on the other side of the river. when msnbc reached out to the reporter who wrote that story he said this. quote, i do not recall anyone saying there were thousands or even hundreds of people celebrating. that was not the case as best as i can remember. meanwhile at a rally last night in columbus, ohio, trump tripled down and read out loud from "the washington post." >> during a speech recently i said that i saw in parts of new

jersey, jersey city but parts of new jersey, i saw people getting together and in fairly large numbers celebrating as the world trade center was coming down killing thousands of people, thousands and thousands of people. but the media was going crazy. they were having a field day. one of my people came in, mr. trump, i have a story in "the washington post." "the washington post"? "the washington post"? how good is that? that's good because they do us no favors. in jersey city, within hours of two jet liners plowing in to the world trade center, law enforcement authorities detained and questioned a number of people who were allegedly seen celebrating the attacks and holding tailgate style -- you

know what that means, tailgate, football games, ohio state, thousands of people in parking lots on roofs, tailgaters is a lot of people. tailgate is not two people. and holding tailgate style parties on roof tops while they watched the devastation on the other side of the river. >> so ben carson also said that he saw the footage but then later he backing tracked saying that he was hearing and thinking something differently at the time. and has walked back the statements. i'll tell you what i think. i think this is -- this is what could really hurt trump. i mean if -- he's got to be smart and strong and correct, and if he's not correct when push comes to shove people will coalesce around a different candidate. >> and, again, he's got "the

washington post" article, but it's not thousands of people. >> i read that whole article this morning to get the context of it, september 18, 2001. the piece was muslim-americans being swept up indrimt jailly in the days after 9/11. they arrested and questioned some people alleged to have these parties. the police chief in jersey city say they have no record of it. previous internet theory it was in patterson, new jersey. that police chief said he had no record of it either. >> i'm just saying. if you look at ben carson's drop it's when people started to see he knew nothing what he was talking about in terms of foreign policy, and in the age of terror and the age of so many different problems that we're facing around the world, this could be -- everyone wonders what could stop trump. i don't think anyone can stop him except for him and i think this could, this could be really damaging. if he does more like this. do you agree?

>> i don't know if it will damage him in the polls. you were asking me a political question. that's like asking me if you give somebody a run on the power sweeper they going to pick up five yards if the play usually picks them up five yards. i mean is this going to hurt him? no, i don't think it's is going to hurt him in the short run. he's got a "the washington post" article, he'll always bring up "the washington post" article. but he doesn't have to be doing it. i think it's unnecessary and what works -- >> shouldn't be. >> what works in primaries doesn't work in general elections. and this isn't even about how many muslim-americans are going to vote for him. this is what george w. bush did figure out is that you had to appeal to suburban, especially suburban women if you're a republican and this is the sort

of thing if he's seen being exclusionary will not only hurt him with muslim-americans and also asian-americans, gene, but also with white suburban voters in let's say the suburbs of philly who were up for grabs. republicans have been chasing away 30 years now. >> this is about -- >> you know, joe, you're absolutely right about that and the appeal to suburban voters. there's another aspect, though, what george w. bush also figured out is that this cannot be a war between christian and islam. after 9/11 he went to the islamic center and said that, islam is peace, these murderous people that hijacked islam to commit these horrific acts,

those are the people we're at war with. and that's something -- you know, that's why i think president obama kind of has to push back against that sort of rhetoric because that's essentially what trump is doing and that's what, you know, some of the republican candidates also are flirting with, and it is potentially catastrophic for the united states. it's an awful, awful thing to do. >> it's not an either or. you can actually be for exclusion while also be for killing isis and be as bold killing isis as including people. mika, we were talking about what we saw -- >> i think everybody is equestion voluntaekw equivocating on this. a lot of people like him. they may not agree what he has to say but they like that he

says what he thinks. but when you're incorrect repeatedly it's disturbing. that's what he has to watch out for. incorrect and mean at the same time is disturbing and perhaps catastrophic for the united states. he has to take command, be strong, be smart and be correct. he done need to do this. i think this could be really, really disruptive to his very successful campaign. >> i don't think it will. what will help him in the long run if he does what george w. bush and we were talking about that chris hayes, when chris hayes, it must have been a ten minute clip of george w. bush last week at the islamic center and it was remarkable what george bush said seven days after 9/11 going on and on and there was the muslim-american scholar that told him, mr. president, even women who want to go out shopping are afraid to go out with their vail. george bush sounded -- i mean

was extraordinarily strong saying this is not who we are. >> the tragic irony of this is the united states has done such a good job of including its muslims. you have a less radicalized muslim population here than anywhere in europe. we envy what america has done with its muslim population that america first and muslim second and the kind of language that we hear from donald trump and have heard from some of the other candidates flirting with as you say mika quite rightly that decisive language the last thing you want to do is radicalize your muslim population but that's what this kind of language could do. >> we need to continue this. >> i got to be one person that throws water on all of this and say that every four years republicans and primaries go out and say crazy things. yes, sometimes democrats in primaries go out and say crazy things. it's not going radicalize the muslim population.

it's not. but recognizes especially right now need to sho more responsibility. it's just my feeling. you all think and you're shaking your head, you think this will cause muslim-americans across america to radicalize. i don't think it is. >> i never said any of this. i'm on a different table. i'm talking what he's doing that will hurt his campaign by being incorrect with facts. i am not talking about any of that and every time i say something about how incorrect he is and how he's like doubling and tripling down it's scary to people. look at the governors, look at people in congress who want to keep muslims out and stop the syrian refugees. he's tapping into something that's clearly there. that might be smart. if he's not correct that could finally be damaging to his campaign as you saw in carson. i'll say it for the fourth time. i have nothing more to say than

that's what i think would finally hurt him if anything does. >> i agree with you in the long term. your initial question to joe does this hurt donald trump now. i think based toechbd of the last six months the answer is no. haven't we learned the things he said have not hurt him in the polls. in the long run if he makes to it a general i agree with you. >> he's been able to say things that were not true and still had a bump in polls. >> his imprison september helped spark the #journalismisnota cri the #journalismisnotacrime. he shares his story and talks about the radicalization taking place in jails across the middle east and europe. we have much more "morning joe" ahead. to our broker. how much does he charge? i don't know. okay. uh, do you get your fees back if you're not happy?

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simpson. he's the co-writer of this week's cover story that details how the united states managed to underestimate isis oil revenue by $400 million and why that money may just be a drop in the bucket for the terror group's finances. msnbc contributor mike barnacle joins the table as well. cam, what kind of money if that's a drop in the bucket are we talking about? >> we're talking about vast, vast amounts of revenue. unfortunately. when you control this much territory with that many people, 8 to 10 million people you can squeeze every part of life and economic life across that territory for taxes, for extortion, for seizing property. i mean these guys have divisions at every level called a spoils division and their only job is plunder. they take equipment, they take property. they figure out what the best need is it for an organization. they take a truck do we need a truck bomb.

they take a truck maybe sell it, smuggle it across the border, get cash for it. every facet of life you can imagine like the mafia. they are squeezing forex the organization and tax, probably to an amount at least equal to their oil revenues if not greater than their oil revenues. that's just a small piece of what they have. when they rolled through iraq last year the u.s. government estimate is that they got 90 bank branchs containies contain billion to a billion dollars in cash before they had to lift a finger to sell any oil or get any oil out of the ground. it's an extraordinary problem. politically it's easy to say we'll fight a financial war against the islamic state we'll choke off their money. you can do that when they control so much territory and all their income comes from territory that they control. >> cam, what were the accessories, the accomplishes in getting this oil out of syria,

out of iraq and into the world? who are the accessories, the accomplices to isis? >> i think that's one of the great misnomers. they are not getting it out of syria and iraq. it's not the life blood of the state it's the life blood of the people. they make the money at the pump. maybe ten oil fields they control in syria and iraq and then dozens of extraction points if not hundreds of extraction points. sometimes it's a host pipe buried in the ground. sometimes it's a pipe miles long. the local people pay for the gas. they pay for the crude oil and then refine elsewhere. islamic state is done. they get paid at the pump and then they are out. you have reports of commanders of rebel groups fighting islamic state buy their oil from islamic state. everybody in this territory needs that oil to run

generators, for electricity, to run water pumps, for asphalt for roads. >> cam, it's willie geist. the question is how do they pull this off? how are they running an international oil company effectively out in the open as they are under attack from the united states, from the west, from the iraqi army, from rebel groups. how are they doing it so easily? >> i mean, again, you can't really stop them from earning income on territory that they control until you retake the territory. and i don't think anybody has the political will for that. you know, it seems like a financial war when we can talk about being tough in a financial war, a war that doesn't put any lives at risk, any american lives. the reality is you can win that war. it's not possible. i think we can reduce the revenue stream from oil alone down further than where it is although we dramatically miscalculated as mika said in the opening, the damage that we did to their oil infrastructure a year ago and dramatically

underestimated the amount of money they were making from it. we said they bombed their oil revenue down and then we found from some intelligence we seized in a kill raid against their oil in eastern syria they were making half a billion dollars a year from oil. $400 million is not a rounding error. that's hugely significant. >> the new issue of bloomberg business week is out now. cam simpson, thank you very, very much. >> this is what's so disturbing about this. again, one more example of a ros ro rosy scenario coming out of this administration. once again, a rosy scenario to paint isis as a jv team and we're caught offguard. i'll say we had somebody on yesterday who said that perhaps isis wasn't at a position where they could acquire nuclear

technology and detonate a bomb in a major western city. guess what? yes they do have the mean. they have over a billion dollars from this report. they've been making half a billion dollars a year. we've been doing absolutely nothing. there's a report out a week before the paris attacks that there's enough nuclear fuel on the black market and somebody is out there trying to shop i want to make a nuclear device. there's enough nuclear technology out there on the black market that people have been trying to sell. and guess what? isis has the money to purchase it. and maintain the status quo. this is the reason why maintaining the status quo is not an option. allowing them to keep their land and say that's not our problem is no longer an option. the longer they have that land, the more money they have, the more ability they have to buy nuclear device and plant it in a

western city. if you think that i am exaggerating, talk to intel officials about it. >> no. i think the question is what's the coalition, what's the group of countries that will close in and work together. the president is meeting with francois hollande today. francois hollande meets with putin tomorrow. those are going to be the interesting dynamics of potentially some sort of alliance. >> cam told us why them maintaining their land is no option. >> and their money. still ahead we're minutes away from a new poll out of iowa that will have a new name surging towards the top of the gop field. we'll break down the numbers as soon as they cross the wires. we'll be right back. you owned your car for four years. you named it brad. you loved brad. and then you totaled him. you two had been through everything together. two boyfriends. three jobs. you're like "nothing can replace brad!" then liberty mutual calls. and you break into your happy dance.

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of the hour it reads like a tom clancy novel the latest from the turkey-syrian border where the turkish military shot down a russian warplane that it claimed violated its air space. >> wow. >> french president francois hollande is set to meet with president obama at the white house in just a matter of hours. the u.s. finds itself in a rare situation, should we follow france's lead on foreign policy? chris hill the former u.s. ambassador to iraq joins us. new poll out of iowa crossing in a matter of moments and there's some big political news in the numbers. we'll be right back. ♪

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beautiful shot of new york city. welcome back to "morning joe." back with us on set we have washington anchor for bbc world news america, katty kay. msnbc contributor mike barnacle. information governor of vermont howard dean joins us and associate editor of the "the washington post" eugene robinson as well. we have a throat get to. news overnight that turkey shot down a russian military jet. the former ambassador to iraq chris hale will be our guest.

first breaking political news, a new quinnipiac poll released this hour of the iowa caucus shows a new top terrify in the republican field. donald trump is slightly ahead of senator ted cruz of texas. 25 to 23% as cruz more than doubles his support from four weeks ago falling 10 points from first place is ben carson. last month he led trump by eight points. senator marco rubio holds steady at 13%. all other candidates are in the low single digits. among iowa's white evangelical, cruz is in the lead at 27% with carson at 24% and trump at 20%. on the question of who would best handle social issues like aboring and same-sex marriage, carson is slightly ahead of cruz, 21 to 20 and trump is in third place but trump leads on many other issues among iowa

republicans on the economy. he's up 49 to 11 over cruz. on immigration it's trump 45 to cruz's 20. and on terrorism, trump 30% to cruz 20%. cruz has the edge on foreign policy, 24% to trump's 18%. this as 58% of iowa republicans say their minds still might change. oh, okay. >> there's a lot to dig through in this poll. >> what stood snout. >> two things. to numbers. minus 13 and plus ten. minus 13 on ben carson who was in first place, doing extraordinarily well. donald trump effectively hammered him on questions about his biography. i think the press also was hammering him. i think that hurt. but nothing hurt as much as his seeming incompetence after the paris attacks on foreign policy. down ten points. that's massive.

ted cruz jumping up 13 points, and, you know, there's been an argument for some time certainly in a lot of the political camps, mike barnacle that for ted cruz to rise, ben carson must fall because ben carson has ted cruz's natural constituents. we see in this poll most strikingly that's what happened. >> ben carson is in that downhill run. his campaign is collapsing. you can just feel it. the strength of his campaign nationally was rooted in iowa with the evangelicals. now cruz has overtaken him. the big number to me i would think to a lot of people is that 58% of iowans are still, they could change their mind. i think that reflects the country's mood right now. >> two other big numbers, willie. one has to do with the, on the issues that matter the most to americans right now, the economy, terrorism, immigration.

it's not even close. this poll like other polls donald trump 15, 20, 30, 35 points ahead. it's hard to beat a guy when he's sitting with those numbers on the economy, terrorism. the other number just got to bring it up. jeb bush at 4%. spending millions and millions of dollars. jeb is at 4%, 5%, 6%. it's getting harder and harder as we go towards thanksgiving weekend to say well he'll make a run. he should be making a run now post-paris. if americans want sober competent leadership now is the time. he's not moving in any of those post-paris polls. in fab he's losing points. >> you look at iowa, new hampshire, national polls, jeb bush has flat lined at 4%, 5%. if he makes a move it's hard to see how he does it. the guy who made a move is ted cruz. you wonder how much of that 10 points ben carson loss is ted

cruz. he was at 10% four weeks ago. now 23% talking about ted cruz more than doubled his support in four weeks. he's been out there. he's been a splind candidate. he talks about defending religious liberty. he's the son of a pastor. he's saying things people like. he hasn't gotten into food fights with ben carson or donald trump. he's been a splind good candidate. >> he's actually been going after marco rubio. >> if you look at those numbers it doesn't look like harko rubio has been able to pick up the people leading ben carson which is what he needs to do if he wants to compete with ted cruz in iowa. >> also an interesting number. donald trump top line, plus five. this is actually bean good month for donald trump with all the things that he said and all the mistakes that he supposedly made. he's gone up five points. >> remember he said people in iowa are stupid. >> this comes after he basically challenged iowa people, are you so stupid that you -- how stupid

are you for supporting this carson guy. a lot of them looked well we're not that stupid. okay you got a poin. carson now down ten points. trump in first place. cruz in second place. gene as you know the washington republican establishment if given a choice of supporting donald trump or ted cruz who ask for a gun instead and kill themselves. this is not what they want. they will start their own party. they will not march behind those two. >> it's driving them crazy. if you want an example, there's a particularly anguished columbia my colleague in the "post" today lamenting the state of this campaign. donald trump is obviously made of something slipperier than teflon because none of this stuff sticks to him. that's one thing from that poll. the other thing i want seems to me really bad for marco rubio in

that you see ted cruz making this advance in iowa. one thing for rubio if ben carson wins iowa and everybody can say well that's weird ben carson and that's not is going last. if ted cruz wins it that's a different story for rubio and it raises the question, where in those early states does marco rubio win? he doesn't win iowa, new hampshire so where does he win. >> that's a question mark halperin has been asking for months. when you look at rubio who the press adores and you look at cruz who the press hates you go on the brown state by state by state and on the fundamentals ted cruz laps marco rubio in fundraising, he laps marco rubio on organization. i mean he's got the fundamentals to win a republican primary. >> howard dean, could you argue that he has a little bit of outsider status as well?

>> i think he does have some outsider status. actually the republicans in washington are helping him all this stuff about he's the most hated man in the senate and mitch mcconnell publicly really doesn't like him at all. that does help ted cruz. ted cruz is a member of the united states senate who donald trump would like to clarissify an insider. ted cruz has done an impressive job here. >> to the breaking news overnight that turkey has shot down a russian military jet. it happened along the border between turkey and syria. footage from the turkish state tv shows a warplane going down in flames in what looks like a wooded area. you can see a plume of smoke trailing behind the plane. the turkish president confirmed the news early this morning staying russian jet violated its air space. according to the turkish air force the jet was warned ten times before being shot down. the russian ministry of defense says the plane was flying above

syrian territory. russian officials say preliminary data shows the pilots managed to eject from the are a plane. according to the ap, a rebel group claims to have captured one of the pilots and said he was dead bone landing. nato will be holding a rare meeting and in a separate incident at least two russian journalists were injured after a missile hit near their car along the border with turkey and syria this morning. oh, boy the russian defense minister said the journalists were taken to a hospital at a nearby russian military base. this news comes as french president francois hollande arrives in washington this morning. he'll meet with president obama at the white house and the two leaders are expected to discuss greater cooperation between america and russia in the fight against isis. joining us from paries, nbc news senior white house correspondent chris jansing with more on this. chris? >> reporter: good morning. well when president francois hollande goes into that oval

office he'll be president of a country at war by his own description and facing president obama who has made it clear in recent days that the united states is not ready to significantly change its strategy in the fight against isis. so what's he going to be looking for? first he wants more air strikes. he's going to want more help from the united states in freezing isis' flow of cash. but the sticky conversation, obviously, is going to be what to do about stopping the syrian civil war and what role president vladimir putin of russia plays in all of this because francois hollande will be going talk to putin. in these big round he's making in diplomacy trying to get support for a coalition he'll talk to leaders of china and italy and canada and the eu head and the u.n. secretary-general, all of that while there's starting to be concern here at heem. let me show you the recent numbers or at least give the most recent numbers on what all of the state of emergency has meant. there have now been more than

1,000, 1,072 police search, 139 police interrogations. civil libertarians have questions about this. searches of homes they can do without a warrant or going a judge. more than that questions are being raised because they say the reason they are having a problem with terrorism here is because muslims don't feel like they have been a part of this country, of their communities and they say that this is just adding to that feeling and, in fact, may be hurting more than its helping. >>ance >> chris jansing in paris. thank you. let's bring in ambassador chris hill. first of all, in terms of what has happened now with this jet that was downed near turkey-syria border what are the implications to an already very

complicated situation. >> obviously, made it more complicated. this is not the first time there's been this kind of activity up there but it is the first time that the turks have actually taken a shot and hit what appears to have been a russian ground-attack aircraft. i suspect it will not be a game changer in any sense. i think it will -- turkey doesn't have an interest in creating a big issue with russia, neither does russia have an interest in creating more problems with turkey so i suspect the upshot of it will be kind of an effort to coordinate things better. i don't see it as fitting into the broader crisis and, you know, we've heard much dealing with the crisis right now. >> the crisis of these two countries are focusing on are far different. doesn't this unline the fact while we're so obsessed with isis these two powers are more obsessed with assad and they are on opposite sides. >> that's correct. the turks have, you know, early

on they tried to work with assad and then they threw up their hands and cast their lot with the various rebel groups which tend to be sunni and tennessee to be in many cases very radical and so the russians of course have taken the opposite view. but i think the real issue for those countries is to see what can to be done in this vienna process in terms of dealing with these, finding some kind of power sharing. the isis issue, those is a very separate civil war and u not about power sharing it's a question of, you know, can we somehow dislodge isis from the territory that it controls and when it has been able to control territory it's been able to hatch various terrorist plots. so there both turkey and russia have something in common. so one hopes that there will be more coordination in that area and maybe more diplomacy in the other area. >> chris it's katty kay here. president francois hollande is meeting president obama today in

the white house going to ask nor american involvement. where do you put the american performance at the moment? how do you rank the president obama's leadership on this and what specifically more do you think the united states should be doing? >> well, certainly if you talk to americans of all stripes whether republicans or democrats, there's a broad number of americans who are very concerned about any deeper involvement in this and i think the president very much is reflecting this sentiment in the country that he doesn't want to get more deeply involved. on the other hand he's been stunning by the criticism he's been getting in the home not just by republicans but also by democrats that the strategy we have isn't really working, and we got to do something more. we got to step it up. francois hollande has a real interest, this is a person who came into office in france with very little interest in foreign affairs, very much sort of

domestic person and now here he is in the middle of this and what he wants to do is get the u.s. to do more and he wants to get the u.s. and russia to, you know, play together better in the sand box. so he's, he's kind of making the rounds. he's been with prime minister cameron, he's going to talk to president obama then he's going to go off and talk to putin. so what the french president found himself in is kind of a strange mediating role between the u.s. and russia. france was never quite as alarmed as the rest of us were by russia's behavior in ukraine and so he's probably looking to see if he can get some wiggle room from us on dealing with russia. so he's very much interested in putting together this coalition and i think in so doing kind of asserting himself as some kind of leader in europe, as you know, europe has sort of -- there's very few leaders there beyond the german chancellor. so he's got a big order of business today.

>> ambassador chris hill thank you very much for being on this morning. >> the u.s. state department issue ad worldwide travel alert for american citizens due to increased terrorist threats. it was issued authorities believe the likelihood of terror attacks will continue as members of isis return from syria and iraq. they said continuing threats from groups like al qaeda and b boko haram and others. the alert says u.s. citizens should exercise vigilance when in public places. advices to be aware of immediate surroundings and avoid large crowds or crowded places and exercise particular caution during the holiday season or festivals or events. let's bring in republican senator ron johnson of wisconsin. senator, it's good to see you this morning. want to get deeper into the strategy against isis. do want to ask you about this travel warning.

what specifically do you all know that forced you to put this into effect through february? >> good morning. first of all, it does not affect travel through the u.s. the state department issues a report the study on terrorism, response to terrorism report shows annually, terrorist attacks have doubled and number of people killed in terrorist attacks have tripled from 11,000 to 33,000. the threat of terrorism is going in the world. now, guys, nobody wants to go to war but islamic terrorists declared war on the civilized war a couple of decades ago and the war continues. i know president obama wants to end all wars but it takes two parties to either agree tone the war or one party has to be defeated. looks like the only way we end this war we have to defeat islamic terrorism. >> you said last week part of the way to do that is to effectively invade the territory that isis holds. that includes iraq and syria.

does that mean sending in large numbers of american ground troops? >> you had graham wood on yesterday. he certainly described the significance of the caliphate holding territory. we have to deny them territory. what i've been suggesting assemble a coalition like george w. bush did in the first gulf war where u.s. supplied about two-thirds of the troops. our coalition partners supplied about a third. let's face it president obama has stated that goal degrade and ultimately defeat isis. we need to defeat isis a lot sooner because every day that isis is not shown as a clear loser they are perceived as winning and don't inspire the types of attacks we've seen here at ft. hood, chattanooga, paris. let's face it, this is a growing threat, it's a real athlete. >> so that is a large number of troops what you just described the coalition that went into

iraq with the first president bush. who do you see in this coalition? which countries do you see across the middle east, across europe who would join us in this fight? >> first of all, i do not know the number we would need. i don't think it has to be the numbers in the first gulf war. i'm talking about the type of commitment. there's only one country that can lead that effort it's america. >> i understand. >> it would be our nato partners and if we lead with american nato the gulf states would also then be supplying not only the financial support but also military support as well. there's only one military that can lead and it's america. >> following up on willie's question to you, i don't think you've spoken to anyone in the defensive establishment, i haven't either who doubts that we could not get in there and take raqqah within three or four months. we could take it from isis. do you agree with that?

>> what i'm being told isis is not that effective militarily. they are effective use of social media and inspiring what we've seen in places like paris. militarily we should be able to take care of them. it's holding the ground later. >> that's my question to you. if we take territory, ground from isis, we take raqqah, we take their capital, then what? >> that's right. we seed sunni partners. we need the government in baghdad. not relying on iran but relying on other gulf states as well as the united states. the historic blunder was us pulling out of iraq not leaving a stabilizing force to be the glue that held that fragile coalition together. it's a historic blunder. again, every day we through to continue to spin out of control america has to under we're at risk. look at the flow of migrants in to europe and the visa waiver program that puts us at risk. we can't sit back and be

isolationists as much as i would love to be this does not remain within the middle east it keeps spilling over and continues to destabilize the region potentially the world. >> chairman of the senate homeland security committee senator ron johnson thank you for being on as well this morning. still ahead on "morning joe," people in new hampshire are now taking a second look at chris christie and that's according to his biggest fan, the "new york times." plus more on the breaking political news this morning. emerging two man race on the republican side. we're not talking about donald trump and ben carson. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back.

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this race. you got carson drop, trump rising and rubio and cruz battling each other. >> reporter: joe, first of all, that carson fade i spent most of yesterday on the phone with my sources down here in south carolina, that carson fade is very real here. even when i was here last week there were these questions about whether or not carson would fade enough to allow cruz to rise. it seems that's definitely happening and what you have is an emerging tussle between marco and rubio and ted cruz. rubio's team is focused on cruz's team. but i think you're going start to see that begin to play out in public weapons this new poll showing cruz surging in iowa. i think they are also trying to send expectation that cruz absolutely has to win iowa or he has no place to go. i'm not quite sure that's the case, joe.

>> i'm not sure. i'm like marco rubio who, again, mark you and i have been asking for six months now, will the national media adore him and he's called the savior of the republican party by "time" magazine. you can't find the state he wins. if cruz does well in iowa, cruz can win south carolina, cruz could win the primary, cruz could win oklahoma, cruz has a lot of states to win. let's look at this iowa poll. they have believed the cruz campaign has believed and we've talked about some time a zero sum game. if ben carson wins ted cruz lose. if ben carson loses ted cruz wins. you look at this latest poll my gosh it's playing just the way the cruz campaign has been thinking it would. >> the super p.a.c. has yet to spend very much money. cruz has some assets rubio doesn't have. he has states he can win. he also has money he has super p.a.c. money and hard dollars.

end has more organization on the ground. he has organizers in every county in the first four states. no one else has that. rubio has a lot of strengths too. the establishment winner of iowa will be in a very strong position and that could be rubio. right now if you're setting up assets cruz has a lot of assets and no one else in the field has except truch. >> jeb bush at 4%. >> he was talking that south carolina poll where rubio is up nine points in the last couple of weeks. don't count out marco rubio. i would ask you as you talk to those sources in south carolina about the collapse of ben carson over the last week how much of this is related to a post-paris world where the voters want a serious man perhaps he's a serious man in his field as a physician but he wants somebody with experience. >> reporter: i think it's played a significant role, willie. that had just been unfolding. we were starting to grapple with how ben carson was going deal with all of those questions.

when i was here last week we've seen a lot of answers to those questions and seems to me voters are nervous. there's still a lot of interest in ben carson down here. he has a big event coming up in a couple of weeks. the sensibility from those close to the party is much different. the one thing i would add to this, those is that donald trump is still a major, major factor here in south carolina. as much as we can talk about cruz and rubio, donald trump is in many ways almost more real here than he is in some of the other early states. there's a significant chunk of party establishment types, people who worked for all sorts of candidates who have signed on with donald trump. and lindsey graham was worried about this when he was running for re-election two years ago. there's a sizable chunk of the electorate that are very angry and showing up tonight for trump in myrtle beach. >> of all the states i've seen and activists i talked to, south

carolina and i noticed it even before trump announced, trump would go down and while candidates would announce be getting 90, 100 people, there trump would go down and give a speech before he announced and 2,000, 3,000 people would show up. i talk to people that have been in politics in that state for a long time. they say if trump has a home field advantage, strangely enough it's in south carolina. and it's in the deep south. >> yeah. south carolina but also at this point new hampshire. trump continues to lead in new hampshire. what's interesting, "the x factor" when you look at this race, we try to get it down to two people. we try to get to it the establishment versus the insurgent. you look at iowa, ted cruz is moving in iowa. ted cruz has the opportunity to occupy the insurgent role. he can win in those southern states, win these caucus states. >> donald trump in first place in every state. >> hers the thing that complicates it. donald trump is leading in new hampshire.

new hampshire is where the establishment candidate is supposed to come from. donald trump leads we don't talk it much but the strategy important the establishments, mccain relied on, romney relied on comes to these states you don't think of as republican states but have a lot of delegates like california, a new jersey, illinois, even like a massachusetts. a lot of win or take all. trump is cleaning up in those states. >> trump is stronger, mark hall brooklyn, in those states. new jersey, trump is miles ahead. >> massachusetts. >> massachusetts. he was up by 30, 35 points. you get out of these first few states where people actually get to meet cruz and rubio and all these other people. donald trump's lead is even bigger. >> it's clear unless something happens to trump the only person that can beat him is a titan. trump is a massive powerful figure in this race in terms of polling, resources and media coverage. who is a titan, is marco rubio,

ted cruz? part of the reason why ben carson is having trouble he's not a tit stylistically. >> are they going to try to draft somebody? are they going to try to ask mitt romney going and save the party? >> it's too late and too. establishment candidates in the race who say they can be the titan. i think ted cruz and establishment winner of iowa who ever finishes first will have a chance to be the titan who can stand head-to-head. >> chris christie on the trail in new hampshire earning new attention. the "new york times" reports in the course of a two hour campaign stop governor chris christie brought a handful of men and women to tears describing the death bed wishes of his cancer-ridden mother, cracked them up with the declaration that his presidency would be golf-free and riveted

them with his remembrance of the family friends he lost on september 11th, 2001. the piece goes on to say this. afterwards, a stream of voters walked up to him pledging their votes to an unexpected vessel for their newly heightened an its about security and terrorism. it is too early to tell how the paris attacks will ultimately reshape the topsy-turvy republican presidential race. but this much is clear it has brought sudden intensity, attention and focus to the candidacy of chris christie. here he is at an event. >> after this week, it's almost funny to be lectured by the president of the united states. i was lectured by the president of the united states this week from far away. he said oh, there's some tough guys in this race who are afraid of widows and/ orphans.

this man has been wrong over and over again yet he cosmopolitans to say will you continue to believe me or your lying eyes. as we watch the world fall apart barack obama keeps telling us everything is fine. so i am concerned about widows and orphans. i'm concerned about which dose and orphans that live in my state of september 11th. i don't want to create another generation of which dose and orphans and if i'm president of the united states i'll do everything we can to make sure there's no american deaths from terrorists attacks. that need be the top priority of the president of the u.n. >> that wasn't the more moving parts of the speech that the "new york times" talked about but, again, you read through this article and -- >> this isn't surprising that he's been doing this for some time. but a lot of evidence and chris christie has been saying it. he said people used to say you're number two. now people are coming up to me

saying i'm voting for you. i'm voting for you. got a long way to go anecdota anecdotally. a lot of things happening on the ground quietly for chris christie. >> it feels like it's happening in new hampshire. he had the speech a couple of weeks ago about the problem of drugs that hit new jersey and applies to new hampshire. if you read this "new york times" piece they talk about paris being perhaps a turning point in his campaign. we're not seeing it in the polls yet but that he can be the, forgive the term, the post-9/11 of this generation president. >> interesting. the political character too of new hampshire versus iowa so we talk about ay, ted cruz moving up basically 60% of all the caucus goers in iowa will be evangelicals next year. new hampshire this is one of the most secular state in the country. completely different audience. it's a lot better audience potentially for chris christie. the other thing in new hampshire

how wide-open it is. we talk about trump leading up there. it was a little bit of a joke but the "boston globe" in its poll the other day threw mitt romney in for the heck of it. mitt romney has a house in new hampshire, he was from massachusetts they know him pretty well. mitt romney rockets to the top of the field. that says something about truch. you throw in a new name not robbie bergqui ronald reagan, we're talking mitt romney. there's an opening for somebody. not necessarily somebody who is a favorite of the evangelicals it could be somebody like chris christie. i thought it could be john kasich. marco rubio maybe. there's a lane there i think to move up. >> mark halperin, make the case for christie. >> he could finish third in iowa. he's a titan. that's what will take. he's the best political brawler in america. the political brawling is a great asset to have. >> you would say -- you would

say unlike rubio, unlike even bush you think chris christie is a titan. >> rubio and cruz have the capacity to sho they are. but christie is that in a new jersey minute. >> i'm not sure anyone takes down trump unless trump does. >> christie knows trump. he's not afraid of him. >> i know. i think he would be incredibly effective in a general chris chris. just really good. >> i will say if you believe still in 2016 that the basics, the political blocking and tackling counts, and that new hampshire is still what new hampshire has always been, chris christie is doing exactly what he needs do. to be there at the end. >> watch him in iowa. he's got a lot of political support from the governor, he's there for chris chris. no establishment candidate has

caught on. >> kasie hunt thank you very much. steve kornacki thank you. mark halperin thank you. still ahead peggy noonan will join the conversation. we're back in just a moment. surprise!!!!! we heard you got a job as a developer! its official, i work for ge!! what? wow... yeah! okay...

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. up next he was one of three al jazeera journalists jailed

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use dulcolax tablets for gentle overnight relief suppositories for relief in minutes and stool softeners for comfortable relief of hard stools. dulcolax, designed for dependable relief . joining us now, former al jazeera english bureau chief, mohamed fahmy who spent more than 400 days locked up in the terrorism wing of scorpion prison in egypt. he and two other colleagues were charged with broadcasting false moves and accused of belong to the muslim brotherhood. he was let out through a presidential decree. take a look at his reaction when he found out you were pardoned when he was on an australia jan

game sho tapiw taping >> james got top score on anry birds. late breaking news. mohamed fahmy has been pardoned in egypt. [ applause ] >> if he's got a pardon, it means in god i hope it means that the other two or out too. i mean we've been fighting, fighting for the past eight months for this, and, i mean -- i'm sorry. >> let's hope.

[ applause ] >> the end of a what 438 day ordeal for you? an absolute nightmare. >> yeah, for sure. peter was like a brother in that cell. our co-existence why we made it in the sport of the media and world support. the hardest part i think of the imprisonment was the uncertainty and being in prison with al qaeda fighters and isis sympathizers and isis fighters who came in to topple the egyptian regime. living with these crazy people was tough because we're journalists and we're accused of a crime we didn't commit basically. >> talk about the radicalization that's going on inside these egyptian prisons and i can't but hearing your story, and what you learned inside the prisons and thinking of zarawarhi.

>> his brother was there with me as well. the issue of radicalization you read about it but right there happening in front of me. when you see 19-year-olds caught in protests are living with extremists in the prison and a lot of schooling going on. by ten of my imprisonment they grown their beards. their thoughts were much more violent and pretty much radicalized and talked about joining the fight in syria and trying to get out of egypt. i've seen it in different prisons across the middle east as a journalist and unfortunately what happened to me in egypt as a prisoner. it's pretty intense. a lot of these young people are tech savvy and some of them look like me and you. they don't have beards and speak good english and speaking to them was really troubling to see them turning into these monsters right in front of my eyes, basically. >> you wrote in a piece for the "huffington post," it's incredible, very moving. and you say i can't help but

remember the ruling in our first trial when i broke down in tears in prison knowing that i could spend seven years of my life in a ruthless concrete jungle with isis fighters and jihadists. the look on my mother's face through the courtroom prisoner's cage as the judge announced the verdict still lingers in my memory and fighting the policemen dragging me out of the dark as i clung to the bars is a scene that i try to forget. is it ever not with you at this point? >> i live with it. i'm seeing what's happening in paris and seeing what's happening on tv brings back these memories. i try now, my release comes with a responsibility and a platform and i try to speak as much as i can of what i've seen inside. of course it was a very intense situation to be in for a crime you didn't commit. you know, just clamping down on freedom of expression across the world is an epidemic not just in egypt, all over the world. so many people are becoming political pawns, journalists

paying the price for score settling between governments and media organizes in my case and i believe what happened in egypt as a score settling between egypt and qatar who has abused the arabic channels in giving voice to these extremists. >> you talked about these young men being turned into monsters before your eyes as they sat in prison. as you spoke them, as you listened to them what for them is the appeal of the isis message? why was that a good place for them to go >> i think for starters they are a bit confused. at this stage they are easy prey. you have this environment where they are around these people. we've seen it happen in iraq. i've seen the misenactment -- mismanagement is responsible for it. governments are to blame for not providing rehabilitation

process. also for leaving them to co-exist with these extremists in prison. it's an adventure as well. >> do they have hatred for the west? do they have hatred for the united states or is it about their own lives in their own countries? >> they have pretty aggressive feelings about the u.s. and come up to me many time and ask why, i'm canada-egyptian. what are you doing in canada. why aren't you fighting for our cause. that's the sort of prison environment. anyone can easily be radicalized unless you have a good support system and you have family and support and good education. so allowing this sort of mix to happen is not a good thing at all. >> mohamed fahmy, thank you so much for sharing your story with us. in our next hour we discuss presidential leadership in times of international crisis with acclaimed columnist peggy noonan

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up next, turkey shoots down a russian warplane that it claims violated its air space and ignored repeated warnings. nbc's richard engel joins us with the latest on that. plus french president francois hollande meets with president obama at the white house today to discuss the next steps in the fight against isis with francois hollande leaving washington, will he leave washington with the support he's asking for? and the politics of terror?

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good morning. it is tuesday, november 24. welcome to "morning joe." with us onset, we have washington anchor katty kay, former governor of vermont howard dean, and in washington, pulitzer prize winning columnist

eugene robinson. and we'll begin with breaking news. we've learned that turkey has shot down a russian military jet. it happened along the border between turkey and syria. footage shows a warplane going down in flames in what looks like a wooded area. you can see a plume of smoke trailing behind the plane. the turkish president confirmed the news early this morning saying the russian jet violated its air space. according to the turkish air force, the jet was warned ten times before being shot down. let's bring in richard engel live in istanbul. what more do we know? >> reporter: there is a major dispute in the circumstances of this plane that was shot down. a russian 24, flying on a counterterrorism mission inside

syria. and that it was shot by ground fire, that its pilots apparently rejected, their fate still unclear. the turkish government however has a different version of events. it says that this russian jet violated turkish air space, was warned ten different times over the course of five minutes. and then after being warned those ten times was engaged by two turkish operated but u.s.-made american f-16 fighter jets. and that it was shot down. a big question now, where are the pilots, what is the fate of the pilot. there has been a video that has been circulating on social media still unconfirmed by nbc news, although it has been run on local television that claims to show one of the pilots t s deadt we don't know the fate of the other pilot or the and you thut of that video.

this is the first time in recent history that a nato jet shot down a russian plane. and it shows the complete lack of coordination that we're seeing in syria right now where you have the u.s. from trky and other places bombing tar gets in syria, france doing the same, russia coming the same and very little efforts being made to deconflict and coordinate that effort. >> richard engel live in istanbul, thank you very much. a lot of different potential problems that could come out of this. >> you look at what putin has been doing over the past 18 months, flexing his muscles, he's become more popular at home not only in the ukraine but also what he was going do in syria. but the costs are piling up quickly for him. commercial airliner shot down and now humiliation of this plane being shot out of the sky. >> both china and russia over the past couple of years and the fear of those countries flexing

their muscles has always been that it would lead to a mistake and it would i go niggnite a mi crisis. you have jets flying over close to borders and it's not the first time that the turks have claimed that russian jets have been flying over their air space. they did this right at the xw beginning of the russian exercises. and just think about this, a nato member country shooting at a russian plane. >> a nato country, howard dean, that most members of nato would just as soon leave at this point because what they're doing along the borders, what they're -- >> what they're not doing. >> -- internally, what they're doing as far as shutting down any opposition. turkey, this is another example of turkey playing by its own rules. >> that's true, joe, although i don't think nato would just as

soon have turkey leave. geopolitically, it's absolutely critical location. but you're right, barely a democrat with a small d and it's been a huge problem. suppressing the media, clearly having a road in civil liberties for everybody, arresting journalists that he doesn't agree with. it's a huge problem. and i think this is absolutely fascinating. i my guess is that he took hombrage and i'm not entirely surprised. >> arrogance through the years is stunning. he's coming off of a big election and you know have two

leaders that have baeen shoot thing at each other. >> russia is an awkward partner in syria. turkey we'd like to help a bit. just shows the complexity -- >> erdogan is opposed to assad. >> and it all goes back to assad at the end. one of the reasons why everybody is not fighting against assad because -- fighting against isis because for a lot of people they see isis as -- they don't like the means, but they see them as a great counter balance. they want assad out. >> saudis, turks see isis has a necessary evil to count er assa and more particularly the rising influence of iran in the region and that's why they have been

very reluctant to go all in against isis until assad goes and they want -- they're very nervous. the geopolitics here are really looking at iran and the rise of iran, but this is complicated for the west this whole issue of the turks shooting down this russian plane and what is the implications for nato and turkey's allies and how do we ever put pressure on turkey to shut that 80 kilometers of border which is where the free flow of jihadi fighters is going in and out. >> until assad is gone, we don't get the saudis or the turks, the qatar is. we get nobody. >> mean while frefshlg military is targeting isis in iraq and syria. firt jet fighter jets took off the charles de gaulle aircraft carrier, the ship is the only one of its kind in the french fleet and according to military officials, fighter jets destroyed two targets in iraq

early in the day. and then later on monday, another air strike was carried out in raqqah, syria. these new missions come after french president hollande vowed to intensify air strikes against isis following the deadly attacks in paris. meanwhile u.s. officials say american warplanes destroyed nearly 300 isis oil tanker trucks yesterday along the syria/iraq border. officials say 24 precision fw guided bombs were dropped. >> i just have to ask, willie, we've been asking the question for over a year now, why are you allowing isis to make $50 million a year approximately on the plaque market in oil sales? why weren't we cutting this off a year ago if isis was the threat that most intel experts said they were? why are we waiting a year. >> i don't know the answer to that question, but obviously

they no it's a problem now. they blew up 160 trucks the other day, 300 today. >> and hey, guess what, everybody got shot p up in pari so we're going to destroy a command and control center in raqqah. really? really, now? >> i could give you the rationale which i don't agree with. they were concerned about the civilian truck drivers. i agree, i think they should have been doing this a long time ago, but that was the concern that the united states government gives for not having attacked the trucks earlier. >> what was interesting, too, hollande and obama will meet today, the french diplomat had an interview with cbs news and basically said, guys, we don't have the luxury of time. we're sending a message to the american government, the american president. this is an imminent threat in our country. we are your ally, we need your help. so they're getting push that way. and you did hear john kerry

after our conversation yesterday saying we need to accelerate things. so the secretary of state now saying we have to move faster. >> now we have the secretary of state -- because the secretary of state seemed to be the only person that was as clueless about the imminent threat as the president. maybe he's stepping up. i have to ask you you the view from europe, because as we've said, this is not a republican or are a democratic divide in america. all americans i've spoken with and experts on both sides of the aisle see this as a direct threat. almost an imminent threat. whether it's diane feinstein or liberal columnists, what is the view from europe right now about the president's -- i said he was in a bubble by himself. but his eye laisolation. >> the the single biggest

criticism has been syria. and it dates back to when you didn't -- he dwidn't cross the red line and he had the french in the van guard of european countries saying we should now bomb syria because they're using chemical weapons. he left them hanging out to dry when he rolled back on that. so there has been long standing mistrust from european allies about the white house's approach to syria and it's escalated recently when europeans so clearly feel a threat and they felt that america has been slightly with respect toed from it because of the atlantic ocean and the fact that it's harder for rev goos and militants jihadis to come here. >> and as willie mentioned, hollande arrives in washington this morning. he will meet with president obama at the white house and the two leaders are expected to discuss you greater cooperation between america and russia in the fight against isis. the u.s. hasn't ruled out cooperation, but has been skeptical that president vladimir putin will focus on the

militant group rather than the forces fighting syria and assad. and the president will also pressure hollande to keep sanctions against russia in place for its recent actions in ukraine. >> let's bring in kyrgios seir he's live in brussels where the prime minister announced the city will remain at the highest alert level for at least another week. what is prompting all this specifically? >> reporter: well, the reason that they are doing this is they effectively believe that there continues to an jihadi cell on the loose and they fear -- the words are they fear an imminent attack. i expect one of the questions that president obama will have for the leader of france when they meet is does europe really have this under control and the answer may be shaky. here in brussels, we've watched people head to work today just going to work an act of

defiance. the morning commute meaning something different than it has ever meant here, and people are saying to us they have to go to work, they have to get on with life as normal, but at the same time, the leader of belgium is saying on the one hand that he wants to keep the security alert high until next monday. on the other hand tomorrow he wants to start opening schools for example. parents saying what does that mean, do i send my child to school or not? do i feel safe or not? over in france, they now have found a suicide belt and cellphone that will give them more evidence, you can trace the explosives and calls, but still as we speak, they fear one or more men are on the loose with with dangerous intent. >> keir simmons in brussels. thank you so much. you can't overstate how extreme that is, that you have a russian capital locked down, a man in ski masks, commandos with machine guns outnumbers

commuters effectively. >> did you see the twitter feed with the cats? the official said they didn't want people to do certain things to show police movement, so people started setting up their cats pretending like their cats have machine guns and cats glaring saying we will not be intimidated. very need to get some of those pictures up. i want to go to gene really quickly. i'm struck by that syria has been seen as our great american failure for some time. and we've been scratching our heads about how the french have at times seemed to being not just in this situation, but going back a year, year and a half, two years, more determined on the terror front at times in the united states. which actually does show the difference in being separated by

an ocean and that we have actually been, quote, leading from behind in the ice of many of our european allies. >> we've also scratched our heads around this table about what do you do in syria anyhow given the sort of hydro headed nature of the conflict. and you you you ssee it today. you have the russians, turk, kurds. everybody has different interests. and the shifting sort of alliances. but, you know, i think -- look, everyone supports france and given what happened and president hollande and we wish then and him the best, but we should recall that in libya for example, it was the french and british who were saying we got the do something, we got do something, let's go in. and so somewhat reluctant white house decided, okay, we'll go in

with you. and afterwards where are the french and where are the british and what has happened in libya since. so -- >> obviously, though, gene, libya is not syria. >> no, it's not. >> syria has been a case unto itself for the past three to four years. >> absolutely. my point there is that when we have these situations and when there are calls from our staunchest allies, you know, come help us, let's go do something, let's do something big, in fact it is in the final analysis the united states that is going to do the doing big, that is going to essentially take responsibility and that's the analogy with libya because everybody is pointing at the white house saying look at the mess that libya became. syria, something has to be done,

yes, and it will have to be the united states that does it. and that's something that we should think about. >> still ahead, can anyone stop donald trump other than donald trump? his comments abohave many scratching their heads. plus we'll talk to a pair of columnists who had similar takeaways of president obama's approach. the "wall street journal's" peggy noonan and ron fauria join the conversation to discuss their pieces on presidential leadership.

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republican frontrunner donald trump has spent the last two days defending a story he told at a rally in alabama on saturday night about watching, quote, thousands of people celebrating new jersey as the twin towers fell on 9/11. it's a claim he defended all weekend. >> i watched when the world trade center came tumbling down and i watched in jersey city, new jersey where thousands and thousands of people were cheering as that building was coming down. >> i saw it. >> i saw that with your own eyes? >> george, it happened. people were cheering in the other side of new jersey where you have large arab populations. >> politi fact says it flies in the face of all the evidence that they could find.

but yesterday trump shot out this tweet asking the "post" for an apology with with a link to an article of theirs from september 18, 2001. an excerpt reads, in jersey city within hours of two jetliners plowing into the world trade center, law enforcement authorities detained and questioned a number of people who were allegedly seen celebrating the attacks and holding tailgate-style parties on rooftops while they watched the devastation on the other side of the river. but when msnbc reached out to the reporter who wrote this story, he said this, quote, i do not recall anyone saying there were thousands or even hundreds of people a celebrating. that was not the case as best i can remember. meanwhile at a rally last night in columbus, ohio, trump tripled down and read aloud from the "washington post." >> during a speech recently, i said that i saw in parts of new

jersey, jersey city, but parts of new jersey, i saw people getting together and in fairly large numbers celebrating as the world trade center was coming down, killing thousands of people, thousands and thousands of people. but the media was going crazy, they were having a field day. and one of my family came in, mr. trump, i have a story in the "washington post." "washington post"? "washington post"? how good is that, right? that's good. because they do us no favors. in jersey city, within hours of two jetliners plowing into the world trade center, law enforcement authorities detained and questioned a number of people who were allegedly seen celebrating the attacks and holding tailgate-style -- tailgate, you know what that

means? that means football games, ohio state, you thousands of people in parking lots, on roofs, tailgate is a lot of people, tailgate is not two people -- and holding tailgate-style parties on rooftops while they watched the devastation on the other side of the river. >> so ben carson also said that he saw the footage, but then later he backtracked saying that he was hearing and thinking something differently at the time and has walked back the statements. i'll tell you what i think. i think this this is what could really hurt trump. i mean, he's got to be smart and strong. and correct. and if he's not correct, when push comes to shove, people will coalesce around a different candidate. >> and again, he's got a "washington post" article that talks about -- >> but he was saying he saw it.

>> but not thousands of people. >> i actually read that whole article this morning just to get the context of it. september 18, 2001. the piece was about muslim americans being swept up allegedly indiscriminately in the days after 9/11 and it said they arrested and detained some people for questioning alleged to have had these parties on their roofs. the police chief in jersey city said he has no record of it. the previous internet theory was that it was in paterson, new jersey. that police chief says he has no record of it either. >> just saying, if you look at ben carson's drop, it's when people started to see that he knew nothing what he was talking about in terms of foreign policy. and in the age of terror and the age of so many different problems that we're facing around the world, this could be -- everyone wonders what could stop trump. i don't think anyone can stop him except for him. coming up on "morning joe," one of the u.n.'s top officials on refugees weighs in on the human toll to syria's long running

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the most powerful tool we have to fight isil is to say that we're not afraid. to not elevate them. to somehow buy into their fantasy that they're doing

something important. they're a bunch of killers. they're a bunch of killers. with good social media. >> i'm just going it say, we all laugh every time these things go because we can't cry. historians will be dissecting this time. and liberal and conservative and independent his tore krtorians s an unspeakably tone deaf chapter in thehistory of this presidency. >> that was president obama on sunday facing questions about the rice of isis. this morning new polls show americans do not see a clear strategy coming from the president. 23% think president obama has a clear plan, 66% to not. joining us you now, ron fournier and peggy noonan.

ron wrote a piece yesterday asking what if obama can't lead. and peg fgy wrote over the weekd uncertain leadership in perilous times. also with us, samicle back at t well. >> ron, this isn't a republican or democratic issue. you have the french president, you have the overwhelming majority of the american people, you have dianne feinstein and with have you who probably voted for more clintons than anybody else that covers the clintons all scratching their heads and wondering how there could be such an abject failure of american leadership at such a critical time. what is going on? >> it's a huge opportunity for him because we have a world in crisis, we have our country is facing an imminent threat. the republican party right now, that field is laced with

rhetoric and lies. we need a president and should have a president who can rise above that. and point us to a cause greater than ourselves, show us a plan for defeating isis that is clear, creative, and concise. instead, he's lowering himself to his political enemy. and i think it's like i said, i think it's a lost opportunity. and high big concern is if you you look at this last week and a half and you use that as a reflection of how our leaders might respond to the next 9/11, i'm of a trade we're one big strike away from a national unraveling. >> and peggy, i loved what you said, the language you used, here the president is one of the great international crises since 9/11 and he's trolling the same republicans who are sitting at 1.5% in national polls thinking that somehow he needs

to do that and go to one refugee camp after another not to see refugees, but to troll republicans. >> yeah, it would be nice if he understood that is below him, do you know what i mean? below his office. here's what i think is sort of the problem. the president in this area on isis and syria has been wrong for a long time a factually. from red lines to we have them contained to they're the jv. so that's factual. >> and after paris saying they can't strike us here when bill bratton was saysing are you kidding me? >> and he's also been wrong in his tone and presentation, being pet chew plant and irritated

when a cnn reporter gave him a straight shot americans are frustrated, they're afraid, why can't we get these bastards.a c straight shot americans are frustrated, they're afraid, why can't we get these bastards. so all of that didn't work. but i think a deeper problem with the president is this. as times of crises, americans can normally tell you how their president really thinks about the challenge of the challenger, with reagan, you though how he felt about the soviets. whatever his latest strategy was, you got it. with other presidents, that has been so. i have an eerie sense with with isis and the president that he is never quite telling us what his real thoughts are and we perceive it and it leaves us sort of with our head at a slight tilt thinking, okay, i better not be hooking there for leadership because he's not even telling me what he really thinks. >> and that's -- >> how he sees the situation. >> that's what was so disconcerting sam stein about our interview with ash carter.

ash carter said isis must be destroyed. we must take their land back. the heartbeat of isis is in syria and iraq and we have to tear it out. very straightforward, those words coming from the commander in chief would calm everybody down. hillary clinton gives a very strong message to the council on foreign relations basically saying the same thing. dianne feinstein. notice i'm not talking about republicans trolling. i'm talking about democrats outside of the small circle around barack obama who are saying what we all want to hear them say. and i just wonder like mika wondered earlier this week, does the president really believe what dianne feinstein and ash carter and leon panetta and all of these other people are saying but he just can't bring himself to saying it because he would have to swallow his pride that they're more than a jv team? >> well, when you talked to

people in that orbit, a few points are usually conveyed to you. >> you mean the president's orbit? >> yeah, sorry. >> so you're talking about the three people. go ahead. >> and i'm one of them obviously. no. one is that they think that this is a lot of cable chatter for what it's worth. >> 81% of americans believe -- no, no. that's another shocking thing here. 81% of americans believe a strike is imminent on the united states of america. and he's blaming television. >> no, no, i'm not saying he's blaming television. but the second point that they make is that sometimes we associate -- sometimes we associate leadership with action. but if you step back for a second, sometimes leadership is being able to say let's pause for a second and survey the landscape. and i think that's the president's general mentality, whether you like it or not. that's what he associates with leadership. and the last point that they make and i actually think is accurate is that if you look at the strategic plans that are

presented for isis, with the exception of lindsay graham and now i guess jeb bush saying he would like some ground forces there, basically on the broad schemes here, they're all the same. we're talking about -- >> no, they're not. >> how are they different. >> we had richard haass come on the other day and talked about a laundry list of things people are begging the president to do. "washington post" editor equ equalial last week where they -- >> maybe the no-fly zone, but -- >> i agree with you, sam. >> but we didn't start striking the fuel tanks until last week. >> i'm talking about going forward. everybody is basically the same components. it is upping our air strikes. it's working with with the middle east guys that we can work with, it's going after the fuel trucks. more bombardment. unless you're talking about a huge investment in guard troops and no-fly zone in syria,

basically everyone is having the same prescription for the problem here. >> it's his presentation. >> i actually agree. and personally i don't want a lot of ground troops in middle east unless we look at how we get more skin in the game. but there is a missing component here and i think ebola czar, he compared what is going on now to all the misinformation and scare tack kicks arou tactics away ebola. he said the president has to acknowledge the people's fears. >> that was bizarre, which was diminishing your critics didn't actually help the situation at all. >> and number two is to show concretely how it is you're going to address those fears. how you will address the crisis. did he that finally through ron

klain with ebola. he hasn't done it with isis. >> another thing he has to say is i was wrong. in whatever way barack obama is saying i underestimated isis' threat, that is comforting to the american people, too. >> but he has to say i never had a syrian policy and that was a mistake. >> it was all ad hoc. increasingly as i go through washington, i talk to people running around in interesting circles, i get the impression this tight circle which has always existed around the president is tighter than ever and more impervious to new thought and new data than ever. it's too tight. >> it's extraordinarily tight and that's a complaint that you and i both hear from democrats on the hill and leaders in the pentagon. >> and as the days dwindle down and the closing day of his --

we're in the closing days of his administration, the circle is indeed closer, tighter and smaller than of. smaller in a lot of ways. smaller in terms of numbers, smaller in terms of seeking outside counsel, thought, ideas. but i would like to ask you because you have done both, i'd like to talk to you about the language of leadership. you've written the language of leadership for a president of the united states. you've been out in the country on a book tour. you understand the language that comes back to you from ordinary citizens. so the president of the united states, barack obama, could certainly employ the language of leadership. we've seen him do it. we haven't seen him do it about this particular issue, this particular crisis. do you think that because he's president, because of all the things that he sees that comes across his desk, the president sees that no one else sees, when it comes to isis, he's looking at a situation where he know nos

matt s no matter what we do, we have no real allies? >> well, i think you might be able to in your own awkward way put together allies for, say, a punitive strike, a punitive hit that hurts isis very immediately that is not a commitment to troops on the ground so much as that it is west and civilized world answering back. look, language comes from thought. i still think the president's thoughts are unclear. he says many words. a lot of wordage. a lot of verbiage. but when you go through it at the end, you're not sure whether you you got any serious insight into his thinking. what is he thinking right now? we have all been talking for the past ten days about where will isis hit next. brussels is shut down. will they come to america. can they come to america. if they come to america, how

will they do it. what do we know, what can we infer from his statements and actions from mr. obama. how he would react to an event like that. how it would change his thinking. does he understand the american people enough to know that a hit on america would get americans very angry and rather bloody minded and their desire for a response would have to be met one way or another. but thoughtfully and in a way the american people understood. that's just imagining a scenario. but you ought to be able with a president to imagine how he would respond to a scenario. >> he has the capacity, so i don't disagree with you on -- look at his response to the shooting in the church. >> yes. you knew how he felt and thought. >> he knew how you felt and

thought. and then when it comes to extremism and radicalization and syria, he almost i have to say even though it seems in terms of policy and execution we're doing more than some republicans would give us credit for as a country in terms of strategy, but it almost seems flip. >> when he sang amazing grace, we were all singing. he made us feel about a cause bigger than ourselves. >> and he was able to talk about evil and he was able to talk about good and put it in words that we all understood. >> but this is peculiar. he knows exactly where his heart and head are on domestic issues that come all of a sudden, but on a major foreign policy challenge, we're all sort of scratching our heads and looking at it like what's that? what about the other leaders of the world? >> i was going to say, more damaging, ron, so, too, are our allies across the world starting

in france where you have a president who has just a bizarre rambling, angry as the "washington post" said, petulant press conference and talking about the "charlie hebdo" murders and how they may have been justified before backing off of that. >> obviously those are terrible signals to send to our allies, but i'm concerned about how we're responding to our president, a good man who really cares about this country, who i know is getting up every day trying to fight these guys and dropping a lot of bombs and aiming drones. but he hasn't been able to get us all to feel like peggy says what he's doing and why he's doing it and how we'll respond the next time we're hit. and i go back and look at george bush the week after 9/11 before he took us down this hole we're in now. that first week, we saw the first day how shook up he was, reflected how we were. the next day how mad he was, which reflected how mad we were. and by the end of the week, when

he was standing on that fire truck, he had us rallying behind him. that's what a leader has to do. >> didn't always translate into the best policy, but i'll take that. ron fournier, thank you very much. peggy noonan, thank you as well. be sure to get a coach peggy's new best selling book, the time of our lives. it's doing really well. congratulations. still ahead, reports this morning that hundreds of refugees and migrants are not being allowed to cross freely into parts of europe in violation of international law. we'll talk to a u.n. official about what can be done about a humanitarian crisis that is only getting worse.

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welcome back to "morning joe." 48 past the hour. joining us now, the chair of the usa for united nations high commission for refugees which helps and protects refugees around the world, charles desantis.

katty kay is back with us, as well. and i'm on the board of unhcr with charles. but listen, we brought you in because i think there is a lot of misconceptions about the refugee crisis, the screening process to come especially into america and exactly where it stands right now in terms of just how horrific this crisis is. >> thank you for having me today. it's an honor to be here to talk about such an important issue. and i think the thing that is important to know is that there is -- the biggest crisis we've ever had, 60 million refugees worldwide under the proceedings of unhcr. 20 million are refugees, the others have been internally displaced. it's dramatic. out of the 20 million refugees, half come from syria, afghanistan. a huge somalia -- a huge issue, right? and i think the interesting thing is to know that out of the

60 million, about 53% of them are children. so we all have children, right? it's a big deal. and right now we're dealing with the fact that this crisis isn't getting better. i was watching as i was preparing to be on the show the world isn't getting better. another air strike and the refugee crisis is as big as it's been since world war ii. >> so specifically with reference to the syrian refugees, 4 million odd of them, what would you want to say to the governors and senators at the moment who are saying after what happened this paris we should not allow syrian refugees in to the united states? >> in my role, i'm not political. you know, i think people are scared, people don't you said refugees. if you haven't had an experience with refugees one-on-one, you have this fear of whatever is out there. >> we've had guests say there is

really no process, their vetting isn't good, there who database. >> i actually don't know that that is true because we're entrempged in a process that makes sure that they choose those in the greatest need to be resettled. and the u.s. has the deepest and most stringent process. so it's not a quick process. unh skrch unhcr is better poised to talk about that. it's more of a 24 month process. so getting refugees into the u.s. i think is probably the most stringent task that i know of. so, you know, to address the question you you had, that's not the lens i look through. i'm really about making sure that we care and support refugees worldwide through the support that we provide. and i think about this every day. i have four children. what would drive me to put four

children to cross the mediterranean. it has to be that bad. in 2013 alone, 200,000 people took a boat. in 2014, 800,000 people. it's kind of amazing. like think about putting your kids in a boat and finding that to be safer than on land. >> to more information, visit un refugees.org. charles, thank you so much for coming this today. >> thank you, charles. when a wildfire raged through elkhorn ranch, the sudden loss of pasture became a serious problem for a family business. faced with horses that needed feeding and a texas drought that sent hay prices soaring, the owners had to act fast. thankfully, mary miller banks with chase for business. and with greater financial clarity and a relationship built for the unexpected, she could control her cash flow, and keep the ranch running. chase for business. so you can own it.

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we're following several breaking stories. now nato is holding an extraordinary meeting this morning. all this as russia claims it unleashed almost 500 air strikes against isis in two days. and u.n. air strikes obliterate hundreds of isis oil tankers.