wounding an officer, as the suspects hurled what officials feared were homemade bombs. >> in an abundance of caution the atf explosive ordnance officer, he if officer responded and determined it was a very thick pipe. it did not contain any explosives. >> again, 28-year-old and a 27-year-old were dead. at this time, police believe they were the only suspects in the mass car. officials say he attended the holiday party. >> there had to have been some degree of planning that went into this. i don't think they ran home, put on these types of clothes, grabbed guns and came back on a spur of the moment thing. >> all right. good morning. it's thursday, december 3rd.

the it's 6:00 a.m. on the east coast. 3:00 a.m. in san bernardino, california where officials have not ruled out the possibility of terrorism in. >> they really can't. a terrible massacre all of america saw unfold. so much of it doesn't make sense. it's a hybrid of sort. a lot of people trying to say somebody struck out against employees, there was a grudge there. there was obviously planning ahead of time as well. just a ton of questions. >> earlier, officials said they're tracing two rifles. sources tell nbc news that at least two of the four firearms were legally purchased. with us on set we have retired assistant director of the fbi sean henry and nicole wallace joins ugs along with willie, joe

and me. we'll get to the facts. here's what we know so far about the two assailants. the attackers identified as 28-year-old farook and malik. they were at the holiday gathering yesterday morning when he stormed out. according to police he and his wife returned with assault rifles and opened fire on the celebration. a man identified himself as farook's brother-in-law told reporters he had no idea what may have motivated the attack. >> i cannot express how sad i am for what happened today. con doll lenses to the people that lost their life. i'm sad people lost their life.

i am in shock. i have no idea why would he do that, why would he do something like this? i have no idea. i am in shock myself. >> he travelled to saudi arabia earlier this year and returned with a wife. another colleague who shared a cubicle with farook told the los angeles times, the couple seemed to be living the american dream. >> really. so much of this doesn't seem to add up. the initial report said he stormed out during the christmas party is what officials said or during the holiday party and then after storming out his wife and he came back within 10 or 20 minutes and lied to their mother-in-law about saying they had a doctor's appointment.

they left the child. they planned this out. it was calculated. this spur of the moment narrative doesn't seem to add up. >> suspect today we'll learn more how long it was in the works and how long they've been planning this. it's interesting to hear co-workers say this man was well liked. maybe he was quiet. they had a baby shower for him at the office not long ago. what was your first instinct? what do you see when you hear this? >> the first question i've got if i'm looking at it from the fbis perspective, they're looking at this as terrorism. what happened when he went to saudi arabia? what happened during that travel? who was he in contact with and through the exploration of social media, these are the things they're going to be looking at. there was likely some pif toll

event that occurred while he travelled. >> let's bring in nbc news correspondent carrey sanders. >> reporter: i think one of the things that's interesting here is a lot of people are making an assumption farook is the lead gunman and his wife joined along with him. we don't have that answer from the authorities. it's an assumption because we intend to believe the man would lead in this case. he did go to saudi arabia and came back with a wife and they have a six month old child. this seems to have been planned because they dropped off the six month old with the grandmother saying they were headed to the doctor's office which suggests they've come up with a plan to leave the child and had their weapons and explosive devices

with some sort of remote control that would be for a toy car. at one point they were actually throwing some of those explosives out the window while being chased. it's believed she was driving the car and he was shooting out the window. i find that interesting because i know in saudi arabia women weren't allowed to drive cars. the other thing is those co-workers say while he was quiet they did recognize he was religious and noticed in the last couple of years he had grown a beard and while he was religious, he was quietly religious but very clearly to them he was a devout muslim. a lot of these pieces sort of suggest things. as you noted the fbi has not

ruled out terrorism. the real question is, is there going to be a note? that's what authorities are looking for. those closest to him, his relatives cannot answer the question of why this happened. >> we heard earlier this afternoon, earlier yesterday afternoon his name come out early. it took a long time for it to get in news reports but some people, i guess you seen somebody suggested 4:00. >> right. the story this morning, obviously, this is all i know but there is a lot of coverage in the extremism movement about the use of twitter and they say the five analysis from law enforcement using twitter, a lot of them are american and the average age is 26. but yeah, this name emerged around 4:00 from somebody. michael smith is the name of the person who i first saw tweet the name. >> the problem is, i guess, for

law enforcement just as carrie laid out, first, he was a devout muslim but he was quiet, he was respectful. there was nothing that would have tipped anybody off to anything suggesting that this man would have done this yesterday. >> i'm going to put him on the spot in a second and ask about the profile we're putting together. carey, there was this dispute. i wonder if there's going to be any resolution in terms of what that dispute was about that happened before the suspect stormed out? >> reporter: i think we're going to get the details at some point understanding there's many dead people here as well as the victims. i think we'll eventually get some indication what the dispute

is about. it was a holiday party, maybe called a christmas party. there's so many triggers here, it's unclear. it doesn't add up. this was clearly a planned out event. you don't rush home, get the guns, have the bombs already made and have the tactical gear on without having a plan. i guess the question is was there something that caused that plan to happen yesterday or was it something going to happen and the dispute was the trigger. >> do we know how many are in the room roughly? >> i don't have a count. i think it was 20. i don't have an exact count. >> thank you so much. we'll be checking back in with you, if you will. how do we say it? in terms of the pieces of the puzzle coming together, what's pointing to the possibility of terror? we're getting into territory hotly debated. >> everybody's thinking it.

the frkbi is looking at we have somebody whose travelled to saudi arabia, somebody who has planned something out, tactical gear, long guns, assault rifle, iads, all the tell-tell signs. when we look at people who may have been radicalized, one of the pieces is have they been wrong by somebody, has somebody gone out and lured them into th this. >> i think it's important to remember there could be potentially some others involved. i know some of the weapons were purchased illegally. >> talking about law enforcement and what they follow, think

about the fact there's more mass shootings according to some counts more mass shootings this year defined by four or more people injured or killed. then there's been days in the year. if you're the fbi, do you look for extremism, does many believe the planned parent hood attack last week, islamic extremism? in a case like this, there's little hope that law enforcement officers are going to be able to stop something like this based on what we've heard so far about this shooters.

>> specifically, the shooting took place in a conference area the san bernardino county department of public health rented out for a holiday party. the vice president for the board of trustees tells nbc news the organization provides housing and work programs as well as therapy and social services to 30,000 people with developmental disabilities. the facebook page says its employees number about 670 and the secretary board of disabilities tells us it works with the state on assisting people with conditions like autism, sir balance palsy, et

cetera. enhancing the lives with people with developmental disabilities by working with them in every day routines. again, yesterday's attack took place in a conference area where the county work employees gathered for an event. they will close most of their offices for the rest of the week. let's go to craig. give us what we know now about the investigation. >> reporter: at this point we can tell you that the shoot out, one of the officers was hit during that shoot out with the two suspects. that officer is expected to be just fiechblt of the 17 victims, 10 of them still listed in critical condition at nearby

hospitals. you mentioned four guns. two of them were long rifles. officials also indicated yesterday that these guys i should say they were strapped to their body when finally taken downward. they're going to spend a great deal talking trying to find out. >> craig, thanks. >> so far in 2015 there's been a reported 355 mass shootings across the country.

that's according to a compile lags of incidents. according to data from the shooting tracker.com there has been more than one mass shooting a day. using that same data, here's a map showing the location of the 355 mass shootings in the u.s. this year. it's becoming our life style. yesterday's shooting goes down as one of the deadliest mass shootings in american history. since 1966 more that i know dozen shootings have left 12 or more dead in the u.s. among them were the incidents in virginia tech in 2007 and sandy hook in 2012. mass shootings occur more frequently than many realize because often they don't make national news. for instance, there was another

one yesterday in savannah, georgia. four people shot in the early morning hours. one of the victims died. a suspect has not been arrested. >> sean, what do law enforcement officers do in this sort of environment? the pace has picked up and there can be debates and the president has said some things that even the washington post said aren't accurate on mass shootings. a new solution suggests we don't need to change anything. y >> you don't know what's going on in their mind. law enforcement is concerned about this.

how are they getting the guns and putting their hands on them legally or illegally. one of the challenges here, i think, is the whole mental health issue again is such a huge concern. >> it is new concern. there seems to be some post newtown, movement on mental health in the united states. the president was talking about it. on the other side you have the islamic extremist angle.

law enforcement can't use that. that would be the same thing as a christian or jew going to christian. what do law enforcement officers do? you can't, we've been talking about intelligence. >> the guy fits in, he all fits in and we like him, he's a good co-worker, neighbor, et cetera. is there something here that has

occurred that would tip off law enforceme enforcement. >> this is so different for law enforcement officers because they said he grew a beard. so did willie. it wasn't pretty. i bring this up about the guns and islamic extremism because the law enforcement angle of this is so difficult. with all the mass shootings, there's not enough resources. >> in retrospect they were seeing that along with other signs and he took a pause and said radicalized. it wasn't clear. >> what evidence was there? >> we'll pick that apart. >> it will be interesting to see if there's a trail on social

media. >> still ahead, we're going to bring in pete williams with the latest recording of investigation. the tactical police response we watched unfold from our eyes. speaker of the house paul ryan will be our guest. presidential candidate carly fiorina joins us as well. you're watching morning joe. we'll be right back.

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let's bring in pete williams with the latest. pete, what do you have? >> well, good morning. the question of why this happened is still puzzling for authorities. they know now there's a lot of preparation for this. the nature on how it happened is odd. the fact that farook came to the celebration with his colleagues and got into an argument and left and came back with his

wife. is it a workplace thing, terrorism on that? that's what they're trying to figure out. they're learning a lot more about farook and talking about a good bit of this. the fact he went to saudi arabia a few years ago and came back. he recently married and had a six month old trield. they're developing a better picture of him but still haven't identified any kind of motive for this. what authorities will be doing after they spend a considerable part of the night going through the house you saw the robot entering and a slow search to make sure there was no explosives, they'll try to look at the computers, e-mails and see if any hints are left there. the relative they talked to said they had no idea this was going to happen and didn't see it

coming. was it prop gan it's a long simmering dispute that leads to workplace shootings. they have not heard of anything like that, did not recall anything like that. the motive question is still unclear. it has aspects of both. both inspired juhadist style terror attack and workplace dispute. the first narrative was he stormed out and was angry.

the wall street journal reporting he may have come back as quickly as 10 minutes later. if his wife was out in the parking lot, it would have taken him 10 minutes to go out into the parking lot and put on the mill stair style gear, get equipped, come back in and begin shooting. that's why we hear the narrative he left and it sounded like a workplace dispute. all these things point to premeditation. >> it was well planned in advance. the fact they got in and out quickly and knew exactly where they were going, all that indicates a considerable amount of planning, the fire power they had and weapons. the fact they left an explosive device at the scene. the question is why was it preplanned and that's the thing. in terms of a time on how long it was, this was a picture.

for so many hours last night the witnesses were saying and the police were accepting that there were three people that came in and fired the shots. now we know it was two. so the picture of what happened there is still one that is coming into focus. >> pete, it's willie. from authorities you've talked to, do you have incite into the trip to saudi arabia and why he may have gone and met with there? >> merely the fact that he went there. i doubt they'll be able to determine who he met with. remember, muslims are encouraged to make a haaj to saudi arabia, mecca or madena at some point in their lives. did he go over the get his wife? they don't know. they were checking the records. the name was out there for a long time before we finally had a confirm that he had a role in the shooting.

>> as much of a challenge social media provides in this area, it leaves all the fingerprints and steps for attacks like this. it's the first place you guys go to, right. >> that's right. there's going to be a record of what's occurred. his communications, e-mails he's sent. people he's been in contact with on social media. they'll look at the browsing history, anything that's saved

documents, pdf or word documents saved on a hard drive and then through the telephone. same thing. you may be able to find gps coordinations, coordinates and photographs that's been taken. >> up next former fbi profiler. we'll be right back. that can change the way you live for years to come. how can you help? by giving a little more, to yourself. i am running for my future. people sometimes forget to help themselves. the cause is retirement, and today thousands of people came to race for retirement and pledge to save an additional one percent of their income. if we all do that we can all win. prudential bring your challenges® this holiday season, gewhat's in the trunk?

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i would like to have a moment of silence. please keep the victims and families in your prayers right now. >> that was house speaker paul ryan at last night's tree lighting on capitol hill. speaker ryan will be our guest live this morning in our 8:00 a.m. hour. >> the daily news, i don't know if you guys have seen this, very provocative cover, willie, having ted cruz, rand paul and

paul ryan all tweeting their thoughts and prayers with the shooting victims. daily news who has been out front in the issue of gun violence in america for several years very provocative headline saying god isn't fixing this. the fact is we have a problem in america and whether you want to put it on mental health or over 200 million guns in this culture, sitting back and praying isn't going to fix this. >> the daily news started this after newtown. every time there's a big gun incident like this, they've done something in that way. there's people who can do something about this, a lot of people are praying and giving people comfort in times like this. >> we'll have that round upcoming up in terms of how politicians in washington

respond. >> and unfortunately, on the other side you have politicians on the democratic side immediately jumping to political conclusions which is what we found in the planned parent hood attack may not have been as accurate according to law enforcement officers. i wish and ron had a tweet. i wish people would just stop and when there's an active shooter, whether you're the president of the united states or whether you're a congressman or congresswoman, i wish it would just stop. leaving blank dead and still few details confirms my opinion of blank. it's just gross and repulsive when these shootings start occurring. everybody goes to their corners. >> well, when you have two happenings almost simultaneously

and it's becoming a daily routine, at what point do you talk about it? so i think we can debate that coming up. first we want to show you until the active shooter is caught. i don't think that's asking too much. i said the same on mitt romney the day after the ambassador was killed in banghazi. just wait and get the facts and then have your political debate. it's gross to be doing it while people are being shot at, while a community is being terrorized to go up and start pitching legislation on either side. left or right. >> and the human instinct, if we do determine there was terrorism involved, the human instinct for law abiding families will be to

arm themselves. >> it would be just as gross as a republican like ted cruz coming out saying see, the president said isis couldn't get us here and look, isis has got us here. let's let the shooting stop and gather the facts. >> there's a lot more questions than answers here. this will be weeks of investigation. >> we want to show you how long the gun battle went on yesterday between the police and the suspects. a man in a nearby neighborhood reported this video while seemingly crawling around his

home on his stomach. here's a small section of the gun battle that went on for more than a minute between the police and the suspects. >> i would say it's worse than that. remember when we heard the gun fire on the video and those shots from paris. we said those are sounds and sites we associate more with baghdad and paris. now it's coming to paris, the

hippest parts of paris and suburbs in america. >> and areas you wouldn't expect to be targets if it's terrorism. i was watching live on msnbc yesterday afternoon as the first video was coming in and there were people layed out sprawled across the street in the backs of pick up trucks being triaged in the street and i thought to myself this is what america looks like now. >> surreal. >> this is where we are. then you wonder when we're going to have the conversation again. >> until we figure out what to do, this is what a lot of countries are going to look like. >> thank you very much, mr. mayor for being on this morning. first of all, our condolences. we're so sorry what has happened to your community. please tell us if there's any new information you have this morning either on the victims or

the investigation itself. >> good morning, no. >> reporter: i have the same information you have. we have 14 deceased and 17 wounded taken to local hospitals. at this time i have no additional information regarding their condition. >> tell me how san bernardino is coping especially in terms on a city level and in terms of having support from surrounding areas and also fbi officials. >> it's a massive response. p.d., fire department, sheriff's department responded as quickly

as they could. as soon as they got on site they secured the vicinity and our community is resilient. we'll recover from this. certainly been an impact and huge out pooring of sympathy and concern for the family and victims. >> we've learned a lot about the facility. >> this is an active investigation as you know. we don't want to compromise anything that jeopardized the case. we want to make sure that all

that information is accurate and so i decline to respond to any of the details surrounding the facility or active investigat n investigations going on at this time. >> mayor davis, thank you so much. >> thank you and we will say it, our thoughts and prayers are with you and the people in your community. >> so terrible. >> it's horrible. you look at the image on the front of the new york post, it's horrible. >> we heard the gun fire from the distance in the street, imagine hearing that same weapon inside a conference room at a holiday party. >> can i say that the san bernardino local officials were so professional. i was watching the live coverage. i turned on the tv after i saw it on my phone and from the very, it was very much on going. the police chief was

extraordinary. like essential casting if you wanted to pick someone calm and cool. >> you have done this in literally the highest level in the world. >> i was never that cool. >> you know what i'm saying at the white house you had a lot of training. this guy yesterday as i was watching him. he didn't speculate. he didn't answer. a lot of times he said he didn't know. he didn't want to tip anybody off to anything. i was blown away. i was also blown away with how police officers, law enforcement officers across the region, l.a., they all came in. it was. >> it was impressive. >> all right. up next we're going to bring in congressman himes of connecticut. his home state knows the tragedy of mass shootings all too well. we'll be right back.

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with us democratcongressman connecticut, we can talk about guns in a bit. let's start by asking you some questions from your position on the entail committee. what, from what you've seen, from what you've heard, are there any con delusions you're ready to jump to about this attack? >> no, absolutely not. the people on the ground are trying to piece together what happened. as you said a couple of minutes ago speculation serves nobody in this kind of situation. look, i think most of the people in this room and city are still waiting to hear what's turned up there and figure out what conclusions can be drawn from that. >> we've had, mika and i were talking. i'm sure you heard about the shootings -- are we as americans

going to have to again from your view of the information you get that the rest of us don't get day in and day out on the entail committee, are we going to have to readjust our expectations for privacy moving forward? >> well, again, i sort of hesitate to have that conversation so close on the heals of san bernardino and what's happening. we have no idea what's happening and what happened in san bernardino. we got to stay open minded and careful about that. as you know for a long time we've had a back and forth about the tension of our civil liberties right on the heals of 9/11. we passed the patriot bill in this institution. most thought it went a little far. just in the last year or so we passed the freedom act which dialled back some of the surveillance authorities and some of the more aggressive measures that were in the patriot act. it's an on going conversation in this building. >> it's so interesting even in

the republican primary you have ted cruz who took a position being against some of the more aggressive aspects of the patriot act now being attacked by just about everybody in the republican party because it appears things have changed so dramatically over the two-three past years. >> i guess that's a natural thing. post 9/11 people get scared and do things they regret. one of the things we need to do here in respect with national security and privacy is we need to resist the temptation to act rationally and we also need to focus on the real problems. again, if you look at what happened after 9/11, two invasions, neither came out well. the patriot act, it's, we would all be better off if we responded more rationally and responding rationally to mass shootings means not putting off the conversation about guns and having the conversation of why

we wake up every single day to another event. we have to be sort of around this. this institution, this institution as you know, joe said 20 years ago. we're going to prohibit. prohibit the study of gun violence which as you know kills 90 people every single day. that, my friend, is the definition of insanity and responding poorly to something that's a pretty intense interest to the american public. >> nicole, last question to congressman, the republican party is going, mass shootings continue day in and day out and day in and day out. republican party is going to have the reexamine a solution and offer resolutions. certainly, you can't tie the hands of the atf or law enforcement officers investigating these sort of things. >> you have to listen to law enforcement about how dangerous it is for them now. i'm curious though if it's also insanity to sort of put privacy

concerns to see what people are tweeting or posting on facebook. do you feel you have all the tools as a policy maker to investigate what's happening online in terms of a possibility of terrorism. >> that's a different conversation. i hesitate to mix the san ber de -- bernardino. >> there's drug gangs out there and child trafficking rings and terrorist using basic off the shelf technology. that one's truly creating a lot of violence.

>> we can't talk about guns today. the fact is we have to have both of those conversations. republicans have to get real on guns, democrats have to get real on security and or else this is going to keep lappihappening da day out. >> we're going to do back live to carrie sanders in california. these two parents turned a holiday party into an unthinkable scene of murder. hey, how's the college visit? you remembered. it's good. does it make the short list? you remembered that too. yea, i'm afraid so. knowing our clients personally is what we do. it's okay. this is what we've been planning for. thanks, bye. and with over 13,000 financial advisors, we do it a lot.

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♪ thnchts morning, a california city in mourning. in a moment we're going to go back live to san bernardino california where 14 were killed and 17 injured in the worst mass shooting since newtown. nbc correspondent pete williams will be back with new information on the suspects and in our 8:00 a.m. hour speaker of the house paul ryan will be our guest and presidential candidate carly fiorina will join us on set as well. stay with us.

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she just said there's a shooting, she's scare and hiding in the closet with two other people. >> they turned off the light, blocked the door and locked it so they couldn't get in if the shooters were around that area. >> this morning, san bernardino joins the communities like newtown, columnbine. two shooters carrying assault style weapons entered a conference center. a witness told the los angeles times they opened fire, ran out of bullets, reloaded and fired again. >> a male in block clothing is still firing rounds. >> it's coming to you. >> when it was over 14 people were dead, 17 injured. first responders raced to the scene but the shooters had fled

leaving behind an explosive device. after police followed a lead to a nearby home they chased on suv and gun battle ensued wounding an officer and officials feared the homemade bombs. >> the atf officer responded and determined that it was just a very thick pipe with a piece of cloth that was made to look like a fuse but did not contain any explosives. >> in the end, 28-year-old county employee farook and his partner were dead. at this time, police believe they are the only suspects in the massacre. officials say farook attended the holiday party and later returned to open fire. so far, they have not found a motive. >> base on what we've seen and how they were equipped there had to be some degree of planning put into this. i don't think they ran home and put on these clothes and came

back on a spur of the moment thing. >> it is thursday, december 3rd. 7:00 on the east coast and 4:00 a.m. in california where officials there still have not ruled out the possibility of terrorism after yesterday's deadly mass shooting and we're now watching a profile again to emerge of the two suspects. joining the table, we have former new york city police officer now professor of law and police studies at john j. college of criminal justice and former communications director for george w. bush, nicole wallace still with us as well. here's when we know so far after what happened after two assailants opened fire at a holiday party. the husband of a woman who was shot in the mayhem tells nbc news they didn't say anything before they started spraying a conference room with bullets. the attackers identified as 28-year-old farook and

27-year-old malik were a married couple with a six month old daughter. farook had been employed as a county health inspector and was at a holiday party when he spewed out. several magazines were full of ammunition fastened to their bodies so they were ready for a gun fight. he and his wife returned with assault rifles and opened fire on the celebration. there was then a shoot out from a black suv and this is what it sounded like from a nearby home.

>> the sounds of a shoot out in an american town yesterday. let's go live to san bernardino to carrie sanders. a lot of people just waking up across the country. why don't you bring us up to speed. >> i think the focus is trying to understand why and of course, there is not an answer to that. 28 will have year-old farook appears to be the focus of the attention because he's from the united states. he is muslim, he is born in illinois and his family, his parents are from pakistan and as you noted earlier, he recently got married to a woman, 27-year-old malik from saudi arabia. it appears that they may have met on some sort of dating website. he went to saudi arabia. they now have a six month old child. now suggesting that this was very well planned is not only that they had these weapons and these homemade bombs and dressed

in black and everything else but that they left their six month old with his grandmother and suggested to her that they were going to the doctor's office when instead they headed right over here with all of their weapons. now, one of the questions is can the family answer what was going on? maybe they can explain since the suspects are dead what happened. the brother-in-law went to the microphone and explained really as much as he could which is not too much but here's what he has to say. >> i just cannot express how sad i am for what happened today. i mean, i, my condolences to the people that lost their life. i'm very sad people lost their life and i wish speedy recovery to them. again, i am in shock. i have no idea why would he do that?

why would he do something like this? i have absolutely no idea. i'm in shock myself. >> they were asking the same question that everybody is asking why, why did he do this? co-workers so there were no obvious grudges. he entered a holiday party in an inner kind of room there where they had gathered and left before they took their usual annual photograph of the employees there and one of the co-workers said he left angrily and not exactly sure why and then returned with his wife with those guns dressed in black, masks, shooting, saying very little. he according to co-workers expressed he was a devout muslim but did not talk about it on a regular basis. he had grown a beard in resent years and had gone to saudi arabia. the most important thing here is as the authorities are trying to piece it together is how can they get the information if the family says they know very

little. one of the things that they are trying to do is work with authorities overseas in saudi arabia because it's possible there may be some information that comes from his wife's background that may explain this because there's no obvious explanation here at least thus far as to what caused him to go with his wife into this room and begin shooting indiscriminately. we do understand a little bet of information from the alcohol tobacco firearms authorities about the weapons taken. there were four weapons. two of them known as long guns. those are rifles. one is an a.r. 15 and the other m and p 15. that's from smith and wesson. it's similar to the mr 15. these were what many people would call assault weapons and they sadly took 14 lives and 17 others wounding them and some of those, five, i believe, are still in critical condition. >> you know, carrie, it's

interesting. i heard you talk about one source saying he left in a fit of rage and glad you brought that up because i saw another account of somebody who said he actually just slipped out. put his jacket on the back of his chair and walked out. i'm curious, have you heard or anybody else heard from more than just one source that he did leave in a rage? so far, it seems to me so much of the narrative almost 24 hours in is based on this one source. others are suggesting he may have just walked out. >> yeah. there is no complete answer on that. obviously, because many of those people are in the hospital and those who are still, the survivors are in shock trying to figure it all out. one of the things we have to wait for is for the debriefing of those in the hospital that can explain what it is they saw and whether there was a fit of

rage. there's a real, as you point out, there's a real quick reason to try this blame of what caused this and what the trigger was. the fbi says they have not ruled out terrorism. >> all right. thank you so much. >> stand by. we're going to bring in eugene o'donald here. >> eugene, what are you looking at after 12-18 hours of this story? >> social media and text and e-mails. we expect inconsistencies. it's remarkable, not remarkable. it's unclear how many are involved at this point. >> we've been talking about the challenges facing law enforcement officers with more

shootings like this than ever before from whether this was a workplace dispute, whether it was fuelled by international terrorism. last week suggesting a planned parent hood clinic was fuelled by other political motivations. it seems to me law enforcement's job gets tougher and tougher by the day. >> we got to get the politics out to the greatest extent we can. last summer it was police motivation and people were taking shots at police about why they have to have all this equipment on the hardware. the mast response of swat people. there's no question about it. they're involved in drug raids but this underscores whether we like it or not, this is the environment we're in. >> by the way, how many saw the coverage live not looking at the military vehicles and going back to the criticism of ferguson

going wait a second, that's, this is exactly why. >> carrie sanders, you mentioned earlier a little bit more about the wife, her background, where she's from and what we know about her. i also know you have a question for eugene. >> i do. the question i ask eugene is there's an assumption. maybe a cultural assumption we make that farook, the man here is the one that led the charge and that his wife was the one that went along with him. i'm curious, were you to be investigating this attempting to track her background from saudi arabia and understanding the relationships that husbands and wives can have. is the assumption correct that she's following him rather than him following her? >> i think you bring up a good

point. >> multiple shooters. a man and woman. this should be evidence based. we should try to speculate to the greatest extent we can. it's especially because of religion. the religious aspect falls into kind of mindless stereo typing. this meets the investigation driven. obviously, we're all interested in this, the public is interested and the investigators have to be laser-like focussed on the facts and evidence and let that take us where it takes us. >> eugene, what expectation would you have from the authorities in saudi arabia to reveal? i mean it's a very different country there. they have a tremendous amount of information on every said. what sort of information do you believe they would be able to reveal about what we know so far about her. her husband described her to family members or friends when they came back from saudi arabia

she was a pharmacist. we don't know a whole lot about her really. >> of course, now, the 9/11 folks came from saudi arabia and there were complaints there was a great amount of cooperation. certainly, this was an embarrassment from the country and you would expect they would cooperate to the greatest extent they can. there's no entail unless you're down on the ground trying to create these relationships and seeing what information you can get. >> eugene, we've established we don't know the motive here. as you look at some of the details, legally purchased weapo

weapons. we're going to have the get our heads around this. how you can surveil people, get the information. keep the tips line open without profili profiling. this is a reminder. there are attacks as we've seen in europe and they would like the penetrate and get in this country. if their not here already. u.k. is an example where they get more surveilling. are there things they're doing because of the politics? >> i think there are. there's things we need to be careful about doing. they wouldn't have the culture parallel. closer to television literally most of the towns in the u.k., the police can bring up the whole town and follow people around. >> do you feel like we have, i know it's a balance but just from a law enforcement perspective, do you feel we get

that balance? right now, do we have that balance wrong? >> why shouldn't we have them on all the bridges and tunnels near the white house, capitol, why shouldn't we have that? >> some of that is in existence. this illustrates it's not just prime locations and targets. >> soft targets. >> so how much could you want, could you monitor, collect it, invest in it. it needs to be done without trying to get to a political conclusion. it needs to be done in a practical prag practical pragmatic way. >> joining us is pete williams, also with us former fbi profiler

clint. pete, we'll start with you. the thing we've been talking about is the motive. the go were armed and well protected themselves. they also brought what authorities say were three homemade devices that they left behind at the scene. although none of them went off. it's not clear what those devices were suppose to be authorities say whether they were to be like law enforcement and call them flash bangs, something to disorient people at the beginning. they threw one at the very beginning. none of them went off. that's a bis of good news. what's the point of them, authorities don't know.

they checked customs and boarder protection. investigators believe based on the timing of the trip it was part of the pilgrimage that devout muslims are expected to make at one point in their lives to saudi arabia to mecca or madina. as for the motives, the two people are dead and they can't interview them. they'll be looking through their computers, electronic media trying to find answers. they'll be talking to co-workers. looking at employment history and those sorts of disputes. it had some of the aspects of a workplace attack because they knew the victims and went to a place where their co-workers were fwagathered and seemed to

choose that place. it wasn't a random attack. on the other hand, was it terrorism, an obvious question. was it for an inspired terrorism? no answer to that question. often in these home grown attacks authorities can find some link to the outside world. downloading juhadist literature, course responding with isis recruiters on social media and those sort of things c. none of that has surfaced in this attack. perhaps they can answer that when they get in the house and look thoroughly through e-mails and computers. >> clint, you were processing all this information yesterday as it came in real time trying to figure out who these alleged shooters were. now that you wake up this morning with a lot more information, what's your take? >> well, i think part of the take is there is a workplace

violence aspect to this but look, we looked at the colorado shooter last week. we were very quickly to write him off as a right wing religious nut based on the information and some of the statements he made. in this particular case, there's no evidence of madness and mental illness. here we have two individuals. this is the first time we've had two shooters i can think of since columnbine. if, in fact, this information is correct that there were pipe bombs assembled, there were neighbors in this shooter's neighborhood who have said i have seen multiple, multiple men coming and going from that house at night. there was a lot of activity in the garage. they got a lot of packages that did not seem normal.

well, who were these multiple individuals that were allegedly seen? i'm not at all sure we can stop this investigation and of course, we're not at a husband and wife. this was planned. they new what they were doing and whether they simply used the opportunity of this holiday celebration to get all of the workers at one site where they were easier targets, we don't know at this moment. we know they came prepared to do this. >> clint, let me follow up on a suggestion willie made earlier. not a suggestion, an observation. in the form of a quest rhetoric, rhetorical question, who leaves a six month old baby home knowing that they're going to their deaths? or at least knowing that they're going to at least spend the rest of their lives in prison.

>> well, the question is do they think they're going to spend the rest of their lives in prison or if this was somehow religiously inspired, did they see they were going to spend the rest of their lives in a far better place leaving their child with a relative to bring up? >> exactly. that's the question that does at least at this early date seem to answer itself. this is somebody driven by a motivation far more extreme than a workplace disturbance? >> yeah, joe, we hear of a shared delusional system. sometimes this accounts psychologically for one person whether it's the woman or man or driver in a situation like this so to speak, the illusional driver and then people to get someone close to them to share that. in this particular case it doesn't move it into the mental health community per say.

in essence, this is a terrible act. you and i and mika can sit here and say it's crazy to do something like this but there's order and chaos and this order may well be inspired in a way that has nothing to do with mental health but more on the background of these two individuals and i think that's what we have to take a hard look at. not withstanding the two rifles we talked about earlier we used, the assault rifles. these were bought two years ago by someone other than the shooters. where did they come from? >> all right. clint, obviously, questions that can and will be answered in the coming weeks. thank you so much for being with us. pete williams thank you as well. from the law enforcement viewpoint you had last week in the planned parent hood shooting and in this resent san bernardino shooting two or three options and all of them are bad. in planned parent hood you had somebody that was politically

motivated and went in with a specific right wing extremist political motivation much along the same lines as oklahoma city or you had somebody who is crazy who had access to firearms. in either case, people were debating which one it was. from the vantage point of law enforcement options, both were bad. it's the same place here whether it was a workplace dispute and somebody had access to semiautomatic weapons that they didn't purchase or whether it was a juhadist attack, both examples are bad news for law enforcement. >> the common denominator being the weapons in the hands of people shooting shouldn't have them and that should be a nonidea logical fix we pursue there. the only silver lining here you can see is unfortunately, the police are getting good at this, better at this. they're becoming more skilled and training every day for this. changing in not a good way.

we have this backwards and have to get the guns out of the hands of people that shouldn't have them. we can have legitimate gun ownership. the fact that these people can pick up four weapons and two assault rifles and go combat mode. >> two of them were purchased legally, the handguns, i believe, is what we're hearing and reporting this morning. >> that's an important point. how would you have kept the guns out of the hands of these people, how do you stop that? >> i don't think you can stop these things altogether. there's reasonable things about the backgrounds. >> to the event. >> we don't know yet. >> let's go to capitol hill because we have a member of armed services and democratic senator crane of virginia. the morning after, what are your thought sns. >> we've seen this too many times. i was a governor during the

shooting of virginia tech during 2007 and i think what these latest incidents in colorado and now california raises two questions, one are we mature enough as a country to look in the mirror and say we have a gun problem. are we mature enough to acknowledge that and second for those of us here, are we willing to stop being bystanders because congress has been a bystander to all this and there's always that voice that comes out and says oh, this particular fix wouldn't have done anything about it so let's do nothing. that bystander voice is a voice of evil. shooters are evil. >> as eugene said i can look at virginia tech and say that's a mental health issue. i can look at sandy hook and say that's a mental health issue. you look at planned parent hood,

perhaps that's a mental health issue. you look at yesterday, quiet political. the common denominator is whether people are politically motivated extremist with guns or whether they're mentally changed people with guns. the common denominator is they're sitting there with more fire power than the police often. >> and joe, not just guns because we do have a second amendment but the ability to get as many as you want whenever you want and wherefore you want with huge magazines that have no purpose for hunting or other legitimate uses for firearms. we have no net, no fix that's going to fix every incident of gun violence. we refuse to do things like 90% of americans say they report. we have to admit we have a problem and got to stop being bystanders in the halls of congress. >> the stunning thing is out on the campaign trail there's some people who will not say they

support background checks for people on the terror watch list. let's turn to international news. great britain being more agrease evidence against isis suggesting we ramp up our bombing campaign as well. >> i think we should. i think it's interesting. we start next week. the 17th month on the war against isil, congress has refused to debate or vote on it. yesterday the english parliament voted on it. in the next ten days or so the german legislative body is going to vote on it. i think it's time for congress to say isil is an enemy and we should take military action to stop them that's smart. in two days, the house of representatives drafted and voted and passed a bill declaring syrian and iraqi refugees were enemies. the bill was caused securing america against foreign enemies labelling refugees as enemies. isil is our enemy and congress won't have a debate about this war and it's time we finally do

it. i'm glad that the english parliament and german legislature is going to give us a little bit of a chain based motivation to finally act. >> senator cane, as you know the authorizization military force is a broad umbrella, what specifically do you think needs to be done? 32 air strikes we're hearing from isis. what else needs to be done? are the 50 special operators on the ground enough this syria? >> there's three problems that inner relate. there's the civil war in syria, the war against isil and the crisis since world war ii and we need to take steps in all of th them. i think a vigorous air campaign, use of special forces and use of forces oon the ground to direct the campaign with native forces like the kurds, that's going to be the path to success. we've seen it work in the curdish areas in northern iraq and syria where we have ground partners from the region. that continues to be a

significant need. king jordan has said over and over again this is our fight, not yours. we've got to be all in. if we're all in, help us. there's starting to be some effective on the battlefield, a kuk ses. the new york times had a great article yesterday and others recently about how the territory is shrinking because there's more success on the battlefield. as they start to shrink on the battlefield they'll be hr inclined to terrorist attacks so we've got to up the counter terrorism protection for the homeland. >> senator tim cane, thank you very much for being on this m n morning. still ahead, speaker of the house paul ryan joins us, plus carly fiorina and we'll go back to california where we'll get an

update on the investigation there and law enforcement tells us some of the guns were bought legally. you're watching morning joe. we'll be right back. t ready for. i see you brought a friend? i wanna see, i wanna see. longing. serendipity. what are the... chances. and good tidings to all. hang onto your antlers. it's the event you don't want to miss. it's the season of audi sales event. get up to a $2,500 bonus for highly qualified lessees on select audi models. it takesi'm on the move.. to all day long...ss. and sometimes, i just don't eat the way i should. so i drink boost to get the nutrition that i'm missing. boost complete nutritional drink has 26 essential vitamins and minerals, including calcium and vitamin d to support strong bones and 10 grams of protein to help maintain muscle. all with a great taste. i don't plan on slowing down any time soon.

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our community is resilient. we'll recover from this. it's been an impact and huge out pouring of sympathy and concern for the families and victims. the stage we set up to receive all those families was a great deal of effort put into making sure that it went as smoothly as possible. >> that was the mayor of san bernardino that spoke with us earlier this morning. let's bring in republican congressman matt thornbury of texas. thank you for being on the show this morning. we're at the 355th mass shooting this year. there are 365 days in a year. what are your thoughts on cushing this violence? >> that we do have a violence problem in this country. not all of these incidents are the same.

you know, speaker paul ryan talked this week about a major push on mental health and many of these incidents are related to mental health. we do not know what this incident is related to. there may be a connection with terrorism but we need to investigate and find out. >> all right. let's stick with that conversation. you say many of these incidents are related to mental health, some of them related to other things. they're all related to guns. what do you think can be done to curb gun violence in the consistente consistens of high capacity guns? >> your report just pointed out this was not a gun issue. these folks built pipe bombs and other devices. the point is if someone is determined to kill a lot of people then there are a variety of ways they can do that. now r there some things that could be done? sure. i think there's ideas floating

around about making sure that people who have been judged mentally deficient in some way are not able to get guns. we shouldn't try to think okay, if somebody's going to go kill abunch of people then a new law related to guns is going to prevent that from happening. obviously, they're willing to violate whatever laws are necessary. >> you mentioned the pipe bombs and other things used again, all these incidents, all 355 of them have had one common threat and that's guns. can something be done? sure. what does sure mean? are you looking at background checks? is there anything concrete you can except on the table to curb gun violence and put high capacity guns in the wrong hands making a gun violence a daily existence in our country? >> i just mentioned greater information sharing between mental illness and those who were judged mentally ill and

ability to buy guns is one area. i think there could be tightening of regulations. i'm concerned we focus all this attention on the instrumentality without getting to the more root cause which do get to mental illness and other sorts of motivations in our society and that's really where the focus needs to be. i'm sorry, there's not going to be a simplistic answer that congress can pass that prevents all these violent episodes from happening. >> what about background checks on the watch list. why the hell can't we say it makes rational sense to at least have background checks for americans on terror watch lists? >> yeah, i think we ought to pursue that in a way that the terror watch list is more

carefully defined. so, for example, in the past few days i've heard of police sheriffs, a variety of people who are on the terrorist watch list. so what happens is we dump abunch of names on to this list for a variety of reasons and then we want to inflingreng a sd amendment right because of afternoan error. you can have a different list that could make sense. i'm certainly open to pursuing that. this kind of widespread if we just make a new law on guns and all this goes away, that's delusional. >> i don't think anybody's suggesting that. >> chairman, it's willie, good to have you with us this morning. let me put to you a question that you may be in a better position to answer. the question is why should an american be able to walk into a

walmart, we don't know where these guns were purchased but buy a 223 semiautomatic rifle? what's the practical use for that? >> i'm not familiar with that particular rifle. i do remember when skbrjoe and were first elected to congress, there was a big hub of assault style rifles and actually what it was was the cosmetic look of the guns. it didn't have anything to do with the way it functioned. i think we're looking too much for simplistic answers to problems that are much more complex in a world that is increasingly dangerous where you do have terrorist that are trying to attack this country. we need to look a little deeper and a little more serious at the root cases, not the superficial ones. >> chairman, i think we agree on that. we've been talking this morning, there isn't a law interestibeind

that would stop this gentleman. back to the question, it's one i've been hearing a lot. is there a practical daily use for the 223? >> i don't know the 223. obviously, fully automatic rifles are not allowed in the system. >> this is semiautomatic, right. >> so is my shotgun. semiautomatic means i don't have to dock it every time. >> this is the argument with all do respect. it's so frustrating if you say you shouldn't have assault rifles in america then you hear they were banned in 1933 or 1934. you go okay, let me clarify my definition and say we shouldn't have semiautomatic weapons in america and then the argument comes back and say now you're trying to take my handgun or shotgun away. there's a big difference between your shotgun and a bush master that was used to slaughter little first graders in newtown or the 223 used to slaughter the people at a christmas party

yesterday. >> you know those guns, right? >> i think you hit the point at the beginning. you said assault weapon. fully automatic weapons have been outlawed since the 30s. semiautomatic is my shotgun where i don't have to reload or dock it every time i want to hit another quail flying over. so i do think we get into definitional issues and also just the style of the guns. so people start throwing labels. this is an assault weapon. what does it mean? it is the funkictioning of the machinery. >> thank you so much for being with us. we hear you have to head on. we appreciate your time here. one of the great frustrations. you have this debate and i had this debate. a hundred percent rating with the nra. i was the gun guy's gun guy. after newtown we started having

this argument i started asking why do you need a 223 and the bush master? they said wait a second you're trying to take away my handgun. you say it's not about assault weapons. it's about semiautomatic weapons. huge caliber. it's a circular argument like that. there is a big difference for law enforcement officers trying to protect all this between a shotgun, handgun and 223 bush master. >> this is about the individuals who can't protect themselves. they have a difficult time protecting themselves. we were very lucky. we had 21 police officers in combat and out gunned. we hadden an officer killed in

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video to share with us. >> this is the video you saw. take a look. >> are you ready? sir. keep your hands where i can see them. >> thank you. relax. everyone try to relax. i'll take a bullet before you do. that's for damn sure. be cool, okay. >> gabby florez is a customer coordinator there. you can see the people leaving with their hands up. that's because law enforcement told all those survivors put their hands up because remember,

there was a great fear that there were perhaps more shooters inside. we did not see any of that video an officer saying at one point quote try to relax. try to relax. i'll take a bullet before you do. that's for damn sure. i spoke with a city official a short time ago. she told me that the investigation told will be happening on a number of fronts. first of all, they're going to spend a great deal of time today interviewing witnesses talking to folks who are inside that facility when the shots rang out and there are also, of course, there is going to be another investigation overseas in saudi arabia as the officials there look into the wife's background. >> two things hit you when you watch that. total calm and professionalism. him saying i'll take a bullet for you do, that's for damn sure. hange the way you live

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lp. all right. we're going to have more on the shooting investigation. but first we have a story, a damning new report from the house oversight committee claims the u.s. secret service is in crisis. it was first reported by "the washington post" and discloses several security breaches and incidents of misconduct, including an agent who accessed a woman's personal information, then traveled to california to ask her on a date. and we learned of a breach at the biden's when four people went fishing in their back yard and were only detected when neighbors alerted officials. and an armed security guard with an arrest record was allowed to ride an elevator with the president at the cdc.

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she got shot on the right arm. it went in the arm and went out. and one in here in the abdomen and just barely didn't go inside. >> did she tell you what she saw, what she witnessed inside that center? >> she said she could not see the shooter. everyone had ducked down, bullets flying all over the place. she crawled herself into the bathroom and then realized she was bleeding. >> you heard what we heard about the two suspects that are dead after carrying out this attack. what do you think inspired them? do you have a gut feeling? >> i think killing of any human being should be an act of terrorism and i think we should control our gun laws in this country. >> that was the husband of one of the victims of the shooting speaking this morning with the "today" show.

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and i think we all should just go home tonight with our loved ones and just really just understand that this can happen any time and we have to be prepared for it. >> spokeswoman for the medical center last night. welcome back to "morning joe." it is thursday, december 3rd. it's 8 a.m. on the east coast, 5 a.m. in california where the officials still have not ruled out the possibility of terrorism after yesterday's deadly mass shooting there. we're now watching a profile begin to emerge of the two suspects. we have former adviser to george w. bush nicole wallace and nicholas is here as well. 14 dead, 17 wounded in california after two gunmen, a man and a woman, opened fire at holiday party. here's nbc news national

correspondent miguel almaguear. >> police ordering everyone keep your heand up and heads down. i'll take a bullet before you will, believe me. >> it took police four terrifying minutes to arrive. as officers poured into the building, word came out, many were dead and even more were wounded. >> we have several down in the conference room. self down. >> it just a moment that makes you not want to take life for granted. it's just -- it was horrific. >> melinda revis was in the building. she heard the gunfire, witnessed the terror. >> people in a frantic panic all over the place, screaming and

yelling. like a bloody war path. it was just crazy. >> as the walking wounded stagrd from the building, shelby was still hiding inside. >> i need to see that you are alive that you're okay, that there's nothing wrong with you. take a photo and text it to me. and she did, thank god. >> 14 were dead, at least 17 wounded. the lucky escaped the gunfire, but not the memory of what happened inside. >> let's go live now to san bernardino, california to kerry sanders. >> reporter: we're trying to determine the best portrait that we can. the picture that's emerging that has most information right now is the 28-year-old syed farook. he is the man and then there is the woman who was the gunman, his wife, 27-year-old tashfeen

malik. farook had in recent years had grown a beard and was known to be somebody who have devout. he had recently traveled to saudi arabia. it's believed he had gone there to make what is known as the hodge, something all muslims are commanded to do, to go to mecca or medina and make this religious pilgrimage. while he made this trip to saudi arabia, he had been in contact with a woman on a dating site, woman who became his wife. we stand they come back, they have a 6-month-old child and here's where it sort of kind of takes the picture that this is

not something that may be just simply a moment of anger at work and that is because they take their 6-month-old child and leave it with his grandmother and say we're going to the doctors office. then they come over here with all of the weapons, the homemade bombs and then they are dressed in what has been described as black kind of tactical gear and they go on this rampage and a carnage that leaves 14 people dead. all those pieces of the puzzle do not add up to one person at work getting angry because somebody said something to them in simply workplace violence. it is why the fbi has not ruled out terrorism. united states investigators from the fbi, atf and of course the state department now attempting to work with saudi officials to is he what kind of picture and portrait they can build of his

wife. meantime the most information they are trying to go is from information they can go here and syed farook's brother-in-law did go to the microphones but didn't have much to offer in way of explanation. >> i cannot express how sad i am for what happened today. i mean, my condolences to the people who lost their life. i am very sad that people lost their life and there as victims out there. i wish speedy recovery to them and again, i am in shock. i have no idea why would he do that, why would he do something look this? i have absolutely no idea. i am in shock myself. >> reporter: of course, that is the question everyone is asking. why would he and she do something like this? we do know that he said to co-workers that his wife, which he brought back from saudi

arabia, was a pharmacist. but we don't have much more information. now, according to a web site where he had posted in previous years about the things he liked to do, this was on a different web site, a dating web site, he indicated that he liked to, among other things, sit in the back yard and do target practice. so it suggests target practice that he was familiar with weapons. the two of the four weapons that were traced directly are the long weapons, those are the guns, the rifles. one is ar-15, the other is an mmp, which stands for military and police. it's an assault weapon often used by police officers around our country. the atf, alcohol, tobacco and

firearms, they say they did not purchase it, someone purchased it for them and then there are the pistols. at the end of the day, it's not as if there was a red flag, authorities say, not an indication that something was brewing. there are no strong indications of what set this off other than one suggestion from one person who was at this gathering of the holiday party that he had left in an angry moment. >> thank you very much. >> a man in a nearby neighborhood recorded this video while seemingly crawling around his home on his stomach. this is the begun battle that goes on for more than a minute between police and the suspects.

[ gunfire ] >> we just got in some new footage that shows a local resident's vantage point of yesterday's chase and that gun battle. >> oh [ bleep ]. guys, shots rang rang out! [ gunfire ]

>> as kerry said, willie, military-style weapon. >> yeah. >> and you hear that. >> in the streets of suburban, california. >> could be fallujah. it could be beirut. it's unbelievable. >> it's miraculous that nobody else was hurt in that shotout between the professionalism of the local law enforcement and the community coming together. it was an incredible spray of bullets there. >> let's get a perspective from someone who knows it too well, grant whitist, he was the first officer on the scene at the columbine high school massacre in 1999. grant, tell us from a tactical point of view what you were thinking yesterday as you heard the first news about this and how a s.w.a.t. team would

approach this kind of situation with multiple gunmen as you encountered at columbine. >> my first concern was how fast could they get into that building to stop it? it sounded like they were too far out or maybe they were just fast getting out. however, we are much more aggressive than they are bringing that to an end. what i mean by that is when we bring it to an end, we practice with patrol and s.w.a.t. using our vehicles as rams. we would ram the car, the next car would pull up and engage in battle if there were fight left. they used a much more conservative approach in california. >> when you don't know who is in a building and how many gunmen there are, how is a decision made when to storm a building?

>> we expect the first law enforcement officer to get through that door as quick as possible, engage the shooters. ideally takes him out but however -- at least he keeps attention so more law enforcement officers can get there and during that time he's not killing any innocent citizens. >> that's incredible. you know, i'm just taking note that he found that the response in california was a lot more conservative. >> a lot slower. can you talk about what's changed since 1999, since columbine, what has become more difficult for law enforcement officers but what have you learned that have made why are responses more efficient? >> we've had three mass shootings with our agency alone. we have had so much experience in these unfortunately. it's tragic here in colorado. now in california.

what we learned from columbine is they need to get through the door as quick as possible, that's your street officers. they have to get there and and engage in battle with them and presumably take them out. what's happened now is our full aggression on how they are taken out. we don't negotiate with them like they did in colorado springs. that is not something that's on the table in our area anymore. >> i remember you say the most difficult thing was rushing out and seeing the victims' families. i was astounded by the professionalism but these are obviously human beings with families of their own. what's happening for law enforcement in these moments? >> certainly. it's such an emotional moment. it's not something to even

consider when they're going through it. however, when we came out of columbine, they sent us to a nearby elementary school to do debriefing, and it hawas the sa location where they were sending the victims' families from columbine. and we didn't know. when we got out of the s.w.a.t. van, we were confronted by the families asking if we had seen their children. certainly thing happened to them yesterday that was very similar it that. >> grant whitus, the first officer on scene at the k columbine in 1999. thank for your perspective. >> as the "new york times" points out, record show mass shootings occur on average every day. in 209 out of 336 days this

year, at least one shooting left four or more people injured or dead in the united states. that's according to a compilation of incidents derived from news reports. according to data from shooting tracker.com, there's often been more than one mass shooting a day. using that same data, look at a map of the 355 mass shootings in the united states this year. spread across the country. yesterday's in san bernardino goes down as one of the deadliest. among them were incidents at virginia tech in 2007 and sandy hook elementary school in 2012. mass shootings occur more frequently than many people realize because often they don't make national news. for instance, another mass shooting took place yesterday in savannah, georgia. four people were shot in the

early morning hours. within one of the victims died. a suspect has not been arrested. >> we've been talking about our party. you just can't talk in circles anymore, with the rising threat of isis, the fear of isis coming to america, gang violence, you see what happens day in and day out, domestic terror. it seems to me there's some basic approaches that republicans can take while still respecting the second amendment. for instance 90% of americans still support strong are background checks. take a poll of how many americans support background checks for people on terror watch lists. >> about 100%. >> maybe the terrorists are against that but nobody else is. a ban on a study of gun violence in america. that's a 90/10 issue. how about tracking down on gun

trafficking? cracking down on it. i saw a study after sandy hook that on 3% of the crimes committed with guns are committed by the people who purchase the guns. >> lawfully, right. >> why can't republicans, why can't conservative, why can't advocates of the second amendment at least come out strongly in these areas instead of just hunkering down and sounding really, really stupid? >> what's curious to me is public opinion i think it's 92% that support background checks for purchase of guns. you have the lobby and gun makes are detached from the public on this. they see themselves at the defender of freedom and of law abiding citizens who simply want to protect their families and i understand that but i think they're out of touch now. most law abiding citizens who

own guns support in large numbers background checks. i wish that we had a more vocal i think argument coming from the law abiding gun owners. they certainly -- >> by the way, i can tell you after newtown, i got absolutely adviser eigc vicerated by the lobbyists, people who had been hunting with their daddy since they were 5 years old said, yeah, i don't understand why they need military assault rifles and my daddy taught me how to shoot a gun at 5 and go out deer hunting when i was 5 years old. people in the middle of gun culture are asking why don't we have --

>> the nra is going to be in a perpetual war against any possible restriction. that is how they justify their existence, how they raise money. so they have a stranglehold on this debate. and unless they decide there's a solution they can be part of, weir n we're not going to see much movement in congress. >> coming up, speaker of the house paul ryan will join us and carly fiorina, we'll talk to her about this unthinkable crime in california and also the race for the presidency. we'll be right back.

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22 past the hour. joining us live on set, republican presidential candidate carly fiorina. nick is back with us as well. thank you for coming in.

>> it's my pleasure. >> i think we ought to start with what's been happening in san bernardino. there's a lot of debates around it. what are your thoughts? >> it is an unspeakable tragedy. despite the headline in "the daily news," the first thing i did was say a prayer, say a prayer for those who had been m murdered and for those who are recovering, and who were there and then for our responders. honestly, the facts of this case are disturbing to say the very least. >> they're not ruling out terrorism, but there are certainly strains that are leading to potentially narrative here. the other big discussion that is

coming out of this is not just this incident but another one in savannah yesterday, another mass shooting, that they're becoming a daily incident. whether it's mental health or terrorism, the one common strain is guns. and we've had a couple of republicans on this morning who don't seem to think that there's much that we can do. are you along those lines? >> well, i think one of the things we should be doing and we're clearly not doing is prosecuting those people who shouldn't have guns. we have lists and lists of people who shouldn't own guns who have them and they're not prosecuted. less than 1% of them are ever prosecuted. we have loads of guns that are illegally owned in this country. why don't we prosecute them? i think people would be willing to do more if some basic common sense steps were taken. we don't enforce the laws in this country. there's why -- that's why some of the cities and states with the most stringent gun control

laws in the country and yet a mass shooting occurred. so i actually think it's ideology, not common sense that causes the left wing every time in a knee-jerk reaction here to say the answer is more laws. i think it makes more sense to enforce the laws we have. >> there are common sense things we can do, can't we? >> that's kind of a red herring. once you're indicted, you cannot own firearm. let's enforce the laws we have. let's start with that. >> if you're on a terror watch list, you can't get on a plane but you can buy a .223? >> my best friend's husband was on the watch list for years. it was a complete mistake. he also happened to be a gun owner.

if i had utter faith in the competence of government, i might agree with that. but do you? i don't. the government screws up all the time. they screw up who they put on watch lists. my goodness, there are litanies of things that the governor makes mistakes over. but if someone is a terror suspect, if they can be -- >> you're saying because they screw up in 1% or 2% on the terror watch list and i would suspect your friend on the terror watch list if he or she went in to buy a gun at that point would appeal being on the terror watch list. >> do you know how long it takes to get off the terror watch list as a mistake? >> you talk about a red herring. this is a red herring to suggest that we should not have background checks for people on terror watch lists. >> it's red herring if someone is a suspected terrorist, they can be indicted. why aren't they?

if someone illegally owns a gun, they can be a prosecuted. why aren't they? >> right. >> let us start with those common sense things because it's not happening today. here we're talking about a mass shooting, a tragedy, that has all the ear marks of a new phase of islamic terrorism here at home and what are we talking about driven by president obama -- >> i'm a republican that had i think 100% rating with the nra -- >> well, no more i guess, joe. >> well, probably not if we want to make sure that terrorists can go into gun shows and get as many guns as they want to get and get as military style assault weapons. perhaps if the nra doesn't rate me 100%, perhaps that more of a problem with how the nra's values have changed. >> maybe. maybe we just disagree on this.

if you listen to your reporter, he said the atf believes someone purchased this gun on behalf of the police department and somehow it ended up in the hands of this guy. >> chances are probably pretty good carly and i agree 99% of the time on the second amendment issues. let's move on to the campaign. also mika wants to get your husband up here so she can flirt with him. >> i know, frank loves mika, mika loves framnk. >> and now mika knows he was in "tow times."

>> donald trump says very strange things. >> well, the media falls for it. the media show it is over and over again. this is what donald trump does. it's good for his ratings. he's an entertainer. here's his pattern. he says something outrageous, the media follows it, then he says somehow we misunderstood him, we misunderstood him making fun of the "new york times" reporter, we misunderstood when -- it's a man who only feels big when he's trying to make other people look small and i think it makes donald trump look the smallest of all. >> let's talk about your campaign. you had a big surge after the first two debates. we haven't heard quite as much. a lot of campaign still to go. >> we're sort of at the end of the beginning. >> what do you say to people who say, wow, she was really hot but

we haven't heard much from her. how are you doing? how is the campaign going? >> only reason we're spending so much time obsessing over national polls is because they tend to determine, thanks to the rnc, who is on the main debate stage. and i'm on the main debate stage. i wasn't on it in august, i had to fight my way on in september and i'm right on that main debate stage and that's where i'm going to stay. when an organization like gallop says they're going to participate, that says a lot. ground games are out there, we're raising money. i'm going to be left standing when the process of elem natiim is over. the process of elimination has just begun.

>> how do you break out in a state like new hampshire where there are probably 10 or 12 candidates who are making it their must-win state. how do you get in there and saying no, no, i'm the person, especially with trump sucking up all the oxygen? >> i've been traveling to new hampshire. i was 17 out of 16, i wasn't even asked about in the polls because fewer than 3% of new hampshire voters had ever heard my name. we're doing just fine in new hampshire. i will remind you that in election after election after election, what all the polling data says is people make up their minds in the last 7 to 14 days before the primary. the truth is we're all obsessed with politics but most people haven't made up their minds just yet. >> you are the most prepared, the messed precise and best performer in every debate bar

none. >> oh, you're flirting with me now, mika. >> i think it's a gender issue that it doesn't get recognized, i tell you. frank, you're all dressed up today. >> carly says that mika flirts with you every time she sees you. is that true? >> most of the time. >> now she finds out when you were a tow truck driver, you were profiled in "tow times." >> was he really on the cover, carly? >> he was just profiled in "tow times." he did a long interview. it's a coveted magazine at the headquarters in the campaign. >> how's the campaign going from your vantage point? >> i think it's going great. i am very proud of carly. i've learned in 32 years that you never underestimate my wife.

she'll be here at the end, i promise you. >> what is the one thing that you'd like voters in iowa, new hampshire and south carolina to know about your wife that they don't know about. >> well, hopefully they're starting to learn the fact that she won't give up. if we're lucky enough that she gets awarded this wonderful job, she'll do the things she's saying and i've seen her do unbelievable things at hp, lucent, at&t, at all levels of her career. she does it by getting everyone involved. at hp, she wanted on day one she wanted to communicate with the janitors all the way up to the direct reports. oddly enough they didn't know how to do that. but they quickly figured that out and she did that through her whole tenure. she always explained to customers, employees and shareholders what she was trying to accomplish.

she solicited their ideas, told them where we were every step along the way and got them involved. that's what she'll do with the american citizens. >> carly fiorina and frank fiorina, thank you very much for being on the show. tough day. it's good to have you both on. >> thanks for having me. >> speaker of the house paul ryan joins us when we continue. he's reaction to the shootings and his agenda for the house of representatives. we'll be right back. they come into this world ugly and messy. ideas are frightening because they threaten what is known. they are the natural born enemy of the way things are.

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we have a pattern now of mass shootings in this country that has no parallel anywhere else in the world. and there are some steps we could take not to eliminate every one of these mass shootings but to improve the otds that they don't happen as frequently. common sense gun safety laws, stronger back ground checks and, you no, for those who are concerned about terrorism, you know, some may be aware of the fact that we have a no-fly list where people can't get on planes but those same people who we don't allow to fly could go into a store right now in the united states and buy a firearm and there's nothing that we can do to stop 'em. >> president obama reacting to yesterday's mass shooting in california. and more poured in including from presidential candidates

from both parties. leading democratic candidates, etch open -- chris christie and rand paul said they were praying for the victims as well. but many are calling for more than prayer. >> "your thoughts should be about steps to take to stop this carnage. your prayers should be for forgiveness if you do nothing again."

>> with us is paul ryan and also sam stein. >> let just ask you right off the top, though, what can the republican party bring forward that will convince americans that we get it, that had are -- >> first of all, i don't want to speculate. we is not updated or mental illness laws in decades. this is a problem because mentally ill people are getting guns and committing mass atrocitie atrocities. the murphy legislation we think is an important overhaul of our laws here. and another thing is terrorist

inspired. that's also something we're dill january and working on. whoof already the biggest concern is how isis inspires citizens here to commit these events. and then we've got to make sure we are enforcing the guns so that people who are already illegal can't get them. the last thing we want to do to rush to judgment to "do something" but not actually solve anybody. that's one thing that really has to get addressed. >> so terror and mental health is one thing.

you mentioned guns like carly fiorina did just a few minutes ago enforcing existing laws. are there any new shrugs, that you think, common sense ones, that need to be put on the table from your party? >> that's what we need to see. are there gaps in our laws? i don't want to predetermine what gaps that we think should be filled but you have to also remember there are law abiding citizens whose rightsy don't want to trample upon. people are saying don't let a person on the no-fly list doesn't get a goun. some people are put on there by a mistake. we have to make sure we're not violating their civil liberties or their rights. and by the way, owe have lot of

the books. and then had we see gaping holes like mental health, we need to fix that. one this evening we've already learned is the mental health issues. now we're finding out, unfortunately what we saw with paris, is there are inspired vapts, terrorist-connected events. so there's lots of work to do and we're doing that. >> there's a debate right now inside our party, paul, about safety versus freedom. >> very much so. >> ted cruz and marco rubio going after each other, marco criticizing ted for his vote on nsa issues. where do you stand in that divide? especially post paris? >> well, i'm not going to get involved in a back and forth between people running for president but, joe, the way i look at this is why do we have to trade one for the other? that's kind of ridiculous, isn't it? we are a free society. we don't want terrorists to make us take away our freedom from

ourselves but at the same time we need to make sure we have the tools to make ourselves safe. >> do we have those tools right now or did we pull back too much? >> i think we've left some tools on the table. but we have it make sure we are vigilant in striking the right balance and i think we can do that. i think we can protect our civil liberties we have method and laws and protections in the constitution to protect our civil liberties while also -- >> there's currently a ban on federal funds for gun violence, as long as we're trying to get our hands around the problem, why have that ban in the first place? does it mack sense? >> we are in the middle of negotiating an entire government

funding bill now. i don't want to get in the middle of these negotiations. i can't speak to the entire pand -- >> it should be lifted. s is and what's the best way to spend taxpayer dollars. we want to do more basic research, cancer research if your stomach isn't turned when you see these violent acts on tv, there's certainly wrong with you. the question is can we reasonably, can we calmly look at this, see the common themes and then address those things without violating a citizen's rights. >> so you are making your first major address as speaker today. congratulations, by the way. >> we think.

>> we're not sure. we've got an excerpt from your prepared remarks. i'm going to read from it. "we need a new president." can you expound on that, police? >> i find that to be very sorian rhetoric. >> i ran against the guy last time. clearly you know how i feel about that. mika, look at the whole speech. yes, we need a new president. we're not going to do all the things we need it do to solve the problems with this president. it really clear. instead just being and we have to give the people in this country an alter we have an obligation to our fellow citizens and how we can do things different and let them

choose, be bold, have a plan, have an agenda and present it to this country. >> how are the efforts to unify the caucus? >> aw, crap. the whole thing just fell down on us here. can you hear me? >> we can hear everything actually, paul. we can hear everything. >> fantastic. >> this is going to make some clips. >> anyway, how have your efforts gone to unify the party? off i don't sbviou obviously it's an issue that's been around since you were working there with me. you have made some progress over the past month or so? >> yeah, very much so, joe. whether it was the refugee response, there were people who wanted to go in different directions, we unified and had a veto-proof majority, 47 democrats joined us. yesterday we passed the most comprehensive rewrite of our k-12 education laws since 2002 and probably the most impactful

since 25 years. so a huge education bill, big bipartisan vote yesterday. today we're going to be passing a five-year highway bill, five-year transportation infrastructure bill. we haven't done something like that in a decade and i expect a very big bipartisan vote. just this week two laws, regular order on education and infrastructure that are the biggest, most come hentsive approaches to these big, important issues in over a decade. i think we're making progress. >> regular order? that's downright radical in political terms. >> i think we'll have to check the record. you might be the first speaker to say "oh crap" on tv. >> that's as tough as my rhetoric gets.

>> where do you stand on passing use of military force. for people who wonder why congress hasn't gotten into this a year into the bombing campaign against isis, what explanation can you give those people? >> first of all, i do believe we have the authorization on the books, that was 2001. i believe that authority currently exists. second of all, i think this is a very good point you're making. we're looking into that right now. can you write an aumf, authorization of use of military force in a way that, number one, gives the military the tools they need, doesn't tie the hands of this military or the next president and, two, can you do it in a way that respond to the situation at hand. so getting it right is really what matters to me the most. and i don't want to pass an aumf that ties the hands of our military and that's going to take some time. >> are we going to be able to so

an end of the year funding measure passed that will avert government shutdown? >> i have no reason to believe we'll have a government shut double play. the appropriate operations committee is taking the lead, regular order, but the appropriations committee is working day and night negotiating a government funding bill. i have no reason to believe we would have a shutdown. >> do you like being speaker? >> most of the time. >> how's the balance, the work/home life balance, balance being speaker and a dad going? >> it's going well. >> i fly home when i'm done with session. i do district work on saturdays and home on sunday. i keep that routine. >> guess i can't call him paul anymore. >> ewhy, yyeyes, -- yes, you ca.

>> that's the cutest thing i've ever seen. >> what, him saying oh crap? >> yeah. >> what did ted cruz say yesterday? >> jimminy cricket. >> stay with us. ♪ ♪ such a shame it's labeled a "getaway." life should always feel like this. hampton. we go together. always get the lowest price, only when you book direct at hampton.com so wi got a job!ews?

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breaking news, 14 killed, 17 wounded. it happened again. another mass shooting, more grief and shock and anger and frustration following the rampage that struck this california city. police are now trying to piece together the motive behind the shooting that killed 14 people and wounded 17 at a holiday party. it's the sixth mass shooting in the past week alone, but the deadliest since newtown. this is video taken inside the inland regional center where the attack took place. it shows an officer leading a group of people to safety, including at least one child. >> try to relax, everyone. try to relax.

i'll take a bullet before you do, that's for damn sure. just be cool, okay? >> the shooter, syed farook, the other shooter his wife. they had a 6-month-old daughter. they were killed in a shoot-out with police. >> there are indicators that this was well planned out and it was to be violent in nature. they were in tactical gear. i don't know if they had ballistic protection, but they were in tactical gear and had several magazines full of ammunition fashioned to their body, so they were ready for