>> when you combine that combine that you will see that we have to deal with it as a society. >> that is some tough but important words and we will end on that. william cohen, thank you sir. we will be back tomorrow. >> hello, i am chris jansing live in san bernardino. a community in mourning and now learning frightening detail about the attack and attackers that killed 14 people yesterday. right now there is no answer to the critical question at the center of the investigation, why? what was their motive. this is looking less like workplace violence and more like one of the killer was radicalized. the victims stories are starting

to come out. michael wetzel for example he and his wife have six children and daniel kaufman who loved working at the local renaissance festival. the shooters killed 14 people inside the inland regional center and investigators increased the number of injured to 21. syed rizwan farook was 28. a u.s. citizen born in illinois. two years ago he married tashfeen malik from pakistan. inside a home in redlands, california, investigators found 12 pipe bomb-type devices and 4,500 plus rounds of ammunition and tools to make bombs.

pete, let's start with the possibility that at least one of them may have been radicalized. what can you tell us? >> it is a term that law enforcement people haven't used whether they were radicalized. i am not sure what the tipping point for that would be. syed rizwan farook, the man who along with his wife carried out the shooting attack had been in contact by phone and through social media with people in the u.s. in southern california and overseas that were known by law enforcement to have radical jihadist views or to show sympathy for radical jihad. they know about this contact now. they did not know about it before. syed rizwan farook nor his wife were on a watch list or terrorism database. they were unknown to law enforcement, police and the federal agencies. that is the extent of it.

that leads us to believe they were in touch with people that had radical views. what is the tipping point, i don't know. they still won't say this was an attack inspired by or because of their association with radical jihad because they do not know why the couple carried it out. >> we do know the reporting yesterday was that there had been an argument or confrontation before he left the party and do we know yet what that was about? was it at least significant enough to definitely rule out workplace violence? >> we don't know the nature of the disagreement. i don't think they revealed whether the witnesses said about it or what the witnesses know. they thought there was an argument. they thought that he was in there acting nervously. although the police say some of them say he was just there and that he left. but in any event it is not

clearly purely workplace violence. whatever it was going to be, this particular attack was prepared for well in advance. they had all of this firepower, bombs with them, remote controlled device they took with them. whether this was the intended target or thought this was their comfort zone those are all possibilities law enforcement is checking out. they have not ruled out the workplace violence thing. they are leaning towards some type of a hybrid. are are what do we know about what police have found? what have we seen them taking away? >> they have been all over the house in redlands, a dozen pipe bombs, 4,500 rounds of ammunition, cell phones, computers, thumb drives are all being analyzed.

that has been an important thing. the crime scene itself has been important. they had a system for triggering it similar to the boston marathon bomb. >> pete williams, thank you so much, pete. all of this reporting on farook and the possibility that he might have been radicalized or was in touch with people that were begs a huge question he was reportedly making about $70,000 a year. he has a 6 month old baby, nice guy, happily married. how do you make a turn to what we saw yesterday? what do we know that could shed light on this?

and the author of "talking to terrorists." i want to thank both of you for being with us. let's go through what we know about the suspects. a county health inspector. she, 27, just a year younger. obviously they had gotten married. she was in pakistan. here on a fiance visa. he had no incredible record. the motive remains unclear. clint, is there anything in the background of either of them so far that we know that would make him or her a target for radicalization? >> we are told by friends of him for example he has changed within the last six to eight months and he has grown a beard and seen more removed and that his demeanor was different. there was something going on in his life. this house they are living in, we are not even sure whether

they actually lived in this house or if it was just a bomb factory that they were using. pete williams talks about the inspiration that one may gain over the internet. we know for example this year there have been 56 individuals in the united states, the majority in new york and minnesota who have been arrested because of some type of isis connections. you are becoming somewhat of a hotbed in that particular area and it is not a quantum leap for someone in his particular case who we are told is a strong practicer of his faith to become radicalized. you know that suggests further by efforts that pete tells us to erase data from the computer. number one, you are trying to destroy any of the connections you have. number two, that goes along with the acquisition of weapons, bombs and everything else to

suggest that it wasn't a spur of the moment incident. we are also told that the bomb making supplies, weapons and everything else could easily cost between $25,000 to $50,000. maybe he paid for that out of his $70,000 a year salary or maybe the money came elsewhere. we will be following the financial trails like we are following everything else on the internet with his connections. >> i suppose that if you look at it from the outside as a casual observer, it might look like a normal family. we were able to go in and pull up their baby registry. kind of a normal every day life. does anything you have seen or heard fit in with any of the people that have you talked to? >> well, i saw he was on a muslim dating site. we know he found his wife that

way or at least that is what i have been reading. also his family history is troubled. his mother filed for divorce. she claimed in court documents that i read about that the father was drinking and violent and on a daily basis saying he was going to kill himself. the father said he was estranged from the mother and not seeing his son at all. it might have looked happy on the outside but maybe not on the inside. we know people can get on the internet and start reading isis and al qaeda garbage and get sucked into it. >> so he goes online and he finds this stuff. i am go to use he generically. anyone can go on and find this garbage. but how do they find him? how does the connection get

made? >> we know that now days, say he is reading something from isis. he is an angry person inside. he has some feeling of injustice from his own childhood perhaps, you know, in this case it has dad was as awful as what the report that i was reading. and he feels angry. he is resonating to what they are saying. he hits like. he endorses it. he puts it on his social media profile. they contact him. that is what we call swarming. the isis people swarm in on you immediately if you endorse their materials and ask if you like it. are you into our movement. would you like to go deeper. then they will skype with you, call with you, talk with you, text you and you have a whole group of friends. it used to be that we could track people like that and see what they were liking on social

media. isis wised up and told people to go dark. we see them destroying their phones and trying to destroy their cyber data and going dark before they attack. and obviously they had an attack of some sort planned. here it looks like maybe they got angry at something about work and decided to go off and attack at work first. but this was somebody that was willing to attack many people. >> and clint, it is worth saying that both of them had body armor and weapons. an atf official was quoted saying it is very unusual to have a female suspect involved in an attack like this. >> it is very unusual to have two people. we keep bringing up the idea of violence in the workplace. the fbi did a study of about 150 mass shootings as you know by definition that is by some

definitions that is four or more people that are victims with at least one dead. of the 150 they looked at only two of those had two or more people involved. workplace violence is usually one angry person that comes in full of anger, frustration and rage and comes in and acts out. this is something that is planned. chris, i don't believe somebody said something that irritated him, he jumped up from the table celebrating a christmas lunch. he gets in his car. drives all the way home. tells his wife today is the day. let's get our vests, guns, bullets, bombs and go out and attack. that sounds hard to believe it was not already planned. >> yeah. especially drop off the baby knowing you are never going to see the baby again. thanks to both of you.

let's bring in nbc's blake mccoy. what do you have? >> we do know a pipe bomb device was found in the building inside that conference center. apparently three pipe bombs bound together that had a radio transmission attached to it that would have set off the bomb. we know the bomb did not go off. they were unsuccessful if they tried. we have also been talking a lot about the fact that he was at the party, left and came back. this is what the police chief has to say about that. >> there was a county public health christmas holiday type gathering luncheon is what it was. he was a part of that. he was there early on. he left. we did have initial information that he left under some type of duress or if he was angry and somebody else said he disappeared and we don't know

where he went from there. >> we do know it was a survivor inside of that conference center that was able to identify farook and led police to the home several hours later. when the shootout happened in the suv they found 1,600 rounds of ammunition in the car. why did they need that much ammunition if they were going to spray the one room and take off. was there a bigger attack planned? the other question they want to answer is the motive. we heard a lot of talk about it being terrorism. the fbi is not going that far yet. they say they have a specific definition for terrorism and it hinges on knowing the motive. >> thank you so much. appreciate that. when we return frightening details. this attack could have been much worse or maybe another was in

the works and more than a dozen died and two dozen hospitalized. what we are learning about the victims. and the politics of terror and gun violence. the murders ignited a huge debate in washington and on the campaign trail for 2016. we will have more on that ahead. not afraid to fail. some of these experiments may not work. but a few might shape the future. like turning algae into biofuel... ...new technology for capturing co2 emissions... ...and cars twice as efficient as the average car today. ideas exxonmobil scientists are working on to make energy go further... ...no matter how many tries it takes. energy lives here.

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>> the fbi says they are flying evidence back to d.c. for analysis. much more coming up live from san bernardino after this. we call it share the love. during our share the love event, get a new subaru, and we'll donate $250 to those in need. bringing our total donations to over sixty-five million dollars. and bringing love where it's needed most.

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>> we are back with breaking coverage of the deadly mass shooting in san bernardino. we are learning the heavily armed couple that went on that deadly rampage had enough weapons for another attack. mark potter is live in redlands, california at a home that is tied to this couple. what have they found and what are you seeing there now? >> what we can see now is the apartment itself. behind me to the right of those cars. there are agents there. we have been watching agents coming in and out. this is the apartment that officials say the couple rented. they don't know if they live there full time or just use it as a workshop. police say they found interesting and dramatic evidence. they include 12 pipe bomb-type

devices, more than 4,500 rounds of ammunition and tools and materials used to make other bombs in addition to the weapons used in the actual attack yesterday, the two assault rifles and handguns. officials say the handguns were purchased legally. they are not sure how the couple got ahold of the assault rifles. authorities are particularly interested in something else they found a computer and flash drives and cell phones. these are critical to the investigation. these materials will be gone over very carefully as they are trying to figure out why the shooting occurred. they have not yet established the motive and that is job one. fingerprints, dna, the weapons and cell phones and electronics will be used to paint a picture

of who these people were and what exactly they were doing. chris. >> mark potter, thank you. let me start with the guns themselves. two assault rifles. a-15, what are they? what are they capable of? and how hard are they to use? would they have had to train to use the weapons the way they did? >> no. they are easy to use. military style. military and police style. they fire a .223 high velocity round that goes fast out of a barrel compared to a pistol. they are made of plastic

materials like to benefit a soldier or a police officer. that is what they are designed for. they are very deadly. i think these are seeing around the world how deadly rifle attacks by multiple shooters can be when they watch the news in paris and charlie hebdo and attacks in the kenyan mall. they understand that. they don't have to have other weapons of mass destruction. rifles and ammunition could be very deadly. >> they can cost about $550 to $1,000? easy to get? >> very easy to get. you can legally buy them. california has some restrictions. they restrict the magazine and certain configurations. most states you can go in and buy 100 if you want without restriction if you are not a person prohibited like a

convicted felon. very easy to obtain. >> same with the body armor? they were both wearing body armor. >> you know, i heard they had load bearing vests. i am not sure if they had body armor. load bearing vests look like body armor but they have a series of pockets. i think the atf agents reported they had these pockets packed with magazines of ammunition when they were killed in the rental vehicle. so this is a really telling behavior here. they escaped on purpose from the scene. four hours after it they have all of this ammo, they are still in a rental car that was due to expire that day or the next. they never intended to bring the rental car back. i don't think that inland attack was the main attack. i think commanders have to look

at it that way and root that out. was that the main attack or a side revenge attack before the real attack that could have been on a mall or a theater or a military reserve center or any target that they could pick. >> some of the stuff we saw where mark potter is there and they are taking things out of that home that are tied to them. the fbi will fly evidence back to the lab to analyze it quickly. what are they looking for? >> well, the fbi is a great laboratory on bombs and explosives and firearms. they will be able to tell everything about these explosive devices and the ammunition and they will really go after fingerprints and dna on everything in this bomb factory. chris, this is a bomb factory where mark potter is. we have been at them. they are small places.

it is where the tools are. the vices to put in pipes. you know put the explosives in. funnels. that is all found there in addition to all of the digital evidence that we have been talking about. fingerprints, dna, bomb making materials, all kinds of evidence. i think that it will uncover associates that might have been with the couples. >> chilling to think about. always good to see you, jim. thank you. >> thanks, chris. >> remembering the victims. we are learning new details. and president obama and other officials talking about the politics of gun control playing out. we will have more on that when we return.

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>> today we are learning much more about the victims of yesterday's massacre. nicholas thalasinos, a man people remember as a wonderful and compassionate person. 14 were killed, 21 injured and two remain in critical condition. today the ceo of the medical system where several of the injured are being treated spoke about not just the physical trauma of the shootings but the emotional impact. >> there is nothing you can do to prepare for an event like yesterday. you don't know what is coming next. you don't know what the next event will be. it is the uncertainty of trying to react to that. >> what can you tell us,

charles? >> five patients remain here at the medical center. of those three are in fair condition and two in critical condition. we are learning more now about those that did not mike it including michael wetzel. he was a supervisor for the environmental health division of the county. his wife said he was an amazing man and her best friend. he was a member of the church of the woods. the church already raised over $90,000 on their way to a goal of $100,000. and nicholas thalasinos, 52, a health inspector for the county, a jewish man who was always willing to help others and he had two adult sons. and also daniel kaufman. he ran the coffee shop. and damien meins, an

environmental health department employee for 28 years and a p.e. instructor at his catholic church school and liked to dress up as santa claus at this time of the year. just some of the people this community lost in the last 48 hours. >> one of the things we see is the incredible impact that it has on the medical professionals that have to deal with this with the first responders that go to the scene. i just wonder what kind of support they have going on and help that they have there for folks that have been through a trauma of their own frankly. we lost charles. thank you so much. echoes of the shooting at sandy hook elementary. the massacre in san bernardino was the deadliest since that one

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and i don't. and national lets me choose any car in the aisle. control. it's so, what's the word?... sexy. go national. go like a pro. >> welcome back. the deadly shooting rampage in san bernardino sparked a fierce debate. there is not even any agreement about whether or not legislation is the answer. earlier today president obama called for change saying easy access to guns is a problem. >> it will be a problem for all of us, including our legislatures, to see what we can do, to make sure that when individuals decide they want to do somebody harm or make it harder for them to do it.

because right now it is just too easy. you know, we are going to have to search ourselves as a society to make sure that we can take basic steps. make it harder, not impossible but harder for individuals to get access to weapons. >> most republicans have a very different view of this issue. paul ryan says that congress is working on mental illness laws. when it comes to people on no fly list getting weapons he expressed concern about civil rights violations. >> people are saying the no fly list. don't let a person on a no fly list get a gun. sometimes people are put on there by mistake. we would deprive them of their constitutionally protected due process rights. we have to make sure we are not

violating a person's civil liberties or rights. >> we are joined now by a democrat from connecticut who has been involved in the fight for gun legislation. senator, i remember vividly the night that president obama came to newtown and gave what was a very moving and empassioned plea at the memorial for those that were killed and you and i sat there. we talked about how you felt that there was finally the momentum to get something done. today senator chris murphy said thoughts and prayers are not enough. what is to say this time will be any different? >> i remember that night vividly when you and i spoke about the need for action. since that horrific tragedy

there has been no action. today we had two votes. one closing the terrorist watch list. people too dangerous to board a plane can still buy a gun and to provide for background checks. two common sense measures. the point here is that we face a public health crisis. this mass shooting was the 355th since sandy hook when we were together. that is a rate of about one per day. whatever the cause and motive in the san bernardino shooting is should be a tipping point for action. unfortunately the measures failed today but at least we are going to hold congress accountable. congress is complicit in failing to act. >> hillary clinton, the democratic frontrunner for

president had something similar to say today. >> we cannot go on with losing 90 people a day to gun violence. just what will it take for congress to overcome the intimidation of the gun lobby and do something as sensible as making sure that people on the terrorist watch list can't buy weapons. >> does everyone in congress though, and i would include the president in this that feels so passionately about this share responsibility of what has happened that this is not -- that this has not come to fruition. why hasn't there been a public push for this that would get congress behind legislation if not to restrict weapons. one of the things that was talked about so much is doing something about guns in the hands of people with a history

of mental illness. >> the initiative for better mental health treatment and care is one that should be a part of a comprehensive set of measures. no single solution here. no way really to prevent all of these tragedies, all shootings everywhere. but lives can be saved. measures like universal background checks, a ban on illegal trafficking. closing the terrorist watch list loophole, the 72-hour loophole. the shooter in charleston got that weapon. he went back, even though he was ineligible and the background check hadn't been completed in 72 hours and walked out with a gun. this common sense approach makes sense. i think if we had 30,000 people dying every year from a disease we would have a major public

health initiative. that is the level of passion and consciousness that we need to bring to this issue and i think that hillary clinton's advocacy is an important and powerful point here. it will be raised in the debate. it will be an issue in 2016. members of congress will be held accountable and they should be. because congress and all of us are a part of this institution and should be held accountable for the ongoing complicity that inaction reflects. i think the decision is the right one. america is asking what will it take. >> senator, it is always good to see you, sir. thank you so much for taking the time. >> thank you. >> i am joined now by a democrat from rhode island hope to introduce legislation to implement a ban on assault weapons. in looking at the things that

did not pass, what makes you think an assault weapons ban has a chance? >> you have to recognize that we have a gun violence crisis in this kunlcountry. numbers of things have been done to fix the broken background check system. people that are seriously mentally ill. making sure terrorists on the watch list can't buy a firearm. there are a number of proposals. not one of them will fix the problem. but the availability of assault weapons. if you look at the assault weapon ban that was in place for ten years. some communities reported a 72% decline in violence with assault weapons. this is just one part of a number of bills that we have to move forward on that can reduce gun violence in this country.

this notion that every time that there is a terrible tragedy like we just saw. the 355th one of this year. everybody has a moment of silence. we offer our condolences. but we have to take action. we are not powerless to just be observers. we have the ability to enact legislation that will reduce gun violence and make it harder for criminals and others that shouldn't have a gun. we had an effort today republicans blocked people from the terrorists watch list to buy a gun. too dangerous to get on an airplane but not too dangerous to go in a gun score and buy a gun. shame on all of us if we do not move forward on these bills. we have to do something. we have a crisis in this country as it relates to gun violence. >> it is good to talk to you.

thanks so much. >> thanks. thanks for having me. >> coming up the tragedy in san bernardino. the latest mass casualty event in the u.s. how frequently do these shootings take place? and we are learning more suspects. i take prilosec otc each morning for my frequent heartburn because you can't beat zero heartburn!

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>> mass shootings like the one that took place on wednesday in san bernardino are becoming common place in the u.s. yesterday was the sixth mass shooting in a week. the u.s. has seen more mass shooting than days this year. sobering statistics leaving a lot of people wondering if this is the new normal. joining me current director of the center for the study of hate and extremism here in san bernardino. you just testified about this before congress in washington. what do you think? >> this is chilling. what i said it that it is a h h harbinger of things to come. the availability of weapons and know-how from peers and the internet. we have seen isis with the most sophisticated recruitment and training operations.

it is virtual. we have it in training camp. people can be radicalized here in this country. i understand the female assailant is from pakistan. kwi al qaeda trying to become more operational. they have been in a drought. >> you have a couple that from the outside look happy. a 6 month old baby. a baby registry. making more money than the average person in san bernardino. you drop off your baby and go on a mass killing spree? >> look at the preparation. >> the thousands of rounds of ammunition. ar-15 assault weapons. explosive devices. we are seeing people who are even loners who are sculpting

extremism from some type of connection. number one, they can be political or religious or both. number two, psycthis looks like is tilting more to idological. maybe one spouse manipulated the other. often time propaganda and someone that is involved in a personal relationship with the offender that gets someone violently radicalized. >> let me talk to you about the two parts of hate. you know, when you look at isis they basically hate anyone who is not them. they are looking to wipe out anyone that doesn't have these very bizarre and crazy views of what islam should be, right?

that is one part of hate. then there is the other part when something like this happens and what it means for others in the community who are muslims, moderates, good citizens. talk to me about the hate aspect of this. >> it is interesting. isis. calls moderate muslims here in the united states coconuts and make fun of them during the pope's latest visit. the bottom line is that isis issant apocalyptic entity. they regard -- and this is interesting. i interviewed extremists all over the world and all have one thing in common. even if you are a co-religionist you are an enemy if you are a part of the broader community. they hate fellow muslims as much as christians, jews and others

and are a threat to the western world and our allies in the middle east. >> are you worried about a backlash against muslims? >> absolutely. i talked to muslim students that are victimized and never report it. we have to make sure that we know who our friends and neighbors are. i can't tell you how many dear friends and neighbors of mine of the muslim faith that have been so kind to me and my family and we have to make sure we are not go to see a backlash. the political rhetoric we are seeing is abysmal. >> it is good to see you in person. we talked many times via satellite and we are all waiting to see what the motivation might be. >> our hearts and prayers with my brothers and sisters here in san bernardino. >> still to come, new details that the wife of syed rizwan farook entered the u.s. on a fiance visa. what is that and how does it

work? more from san bernardino ahead. sure, tv has evolved over the years.

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season. they are in our thoughts and in our prayers and we send them our love. >> up next new details about how the female suspect entered the u.s. we will be right back. opportunity is everything you make of it. this winter, take advantage of our season's best offers on the latest generation of cadillacs. the 2016 cadillac ats. get this low-mileage lease from around $269 per month, or purchase with 0% apr financing.

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>> very difficult. more difficult than other ways people get into the united states. this was passed under a 1970 law from vietnam having a hard time running into red tape wanting to bring back people they met abroad. it involves police records from your home state. this individual from the shooting living in pakistan and saudi arabia and a rigorous process of sealed documents. they have to keep them sealed before they turn them over on arrival. i spoke to a former federal prosecutor that said we have to do a better job making sure we are not just relying on police records from other countries in this process. that is a general policy concern. we don't know whether or not there would have been information about the individual at the time of the fiance visa that might have been missed or

gone against letting her into the country, chris. >> hasn't the concern been the opposite, that there are women in the united states who go over to syria or iraq, meet someone get married and then bring someone back? this is the opposite of that. >> yeah. it is the opposite of that. another thing that relates to getting this right is that i spoke to another expert that basically said look, 35,000 people come into the country annually on this which you mentioned in your setup. 37 million people from 19 different visa countries come in with no screening. journalists and lawyers look at the rules. you have a horrific murder out there and people are wondering if every box was checked. but you want to focus on the big

picture. >> good to see you ari. thank you so much. thank you for watching msnbc live. hardball starts right now. >> lone wolves, this is hardball. good evening. i am chris matthews in washington. it could be a case of lone wolf radicalized islamist terrorism. it could have been worse. the pair planted bombs to create a greater scene of carnage. it started a vicious attack on president obama by donald trump. he said the president was hiding something about himself. something dark in his past and identity that makes him defensive about suspected terrorism th