republican party. and getting to the root of the flint water crisis. but first, they don't want you to caucus. good morning, i'm melissa harris-perry, and this hour we have eyes on the many presidential hopefuls stumping across iowa today, giving their last-ditch closing arguments ahead of monday's first in the nation caucus. the very first votes in the contest that will determine the next president of the united states. it's finally real, people! and tomorrow i too will be on the ground in iowa, and i'm excited down to my political science nerd toes. so today, we're going to get into the nitty-gritty in both parties. but first, the democrats. because the crazy-haired vermont socialist that everyone thought was a long-shot candidate is now neck and neck with secretary of

state, hillary clinton, whose democratic primary is no longer just a coronation. according to the most recent nbc news wall street journal poll, clinton is three points ahead of sanders, among caucus goers. a lead well within the polls, 4.7 margin of error. it's a dead heat, and both candidates are feeling the -- well, you know. going all-out in their closing arguments to iowans. now, by this point, anyone closely watching the campaign has become accustomed to the message integral to the sanders campaign. he is the outsider who is going to up-end the political establishment, whether they like it or not! two democratic visions for regulating wall street. one says it's okay to take millions for big banks and then tell them what to do. will they like me? no. will they begin to play by the

rules? you better believe it. >> in bernie sanders' world, it's bernie versus them. and if he wins, he is, in fact, going to win, win, win. but you see, not everyone is buying it. the "washington post" editorial board, for one, said this week that bernie, quote, is playing the role of the uncorrupted anti establishment crusader, but mr. sanders is not a truth-teller, he's a politician, so a slice of the country eagerly wants to buy it. to sanders, that kind of thinking is exactly what he's running against. here is bernie in iowa on thursday. >> in a sense, what this campaign is about. that is, people are telling us whether it's the "washington post" editorial board or anybody else. our ideas are too ambitious. can't happen. too bold. really? >> see every time you tell him it's too bold, too big, it's a response that furthers sanders' image as a rogue outsider who will continue to represent the

people, even in the face of powerful opposition. his pitch is they don't want you to vote for bernie. so you definitely should. actually, you know who bernie has been kind of reminding me of lately? the renown hip-hop producer tj. >> they don't want you to be happy. they don't want you to enjoy lunch. well, i'm going to enjoy it. >> oh! >> they don't want you to wear the fur. they don't want you to break the app store. they don't want you to be the biggest boss in the game. so what we're going to do is we're going to wear more. >> right, right. they don't even want you to have a talk show. see, for those who don't know who dj is, he's a renown hip-hop producer responsible for some of the most memorable hits of the past decade, collaborating with fat joe, kanye west, drake, and perhaps best known for the hit single, "all i do is win."

we would play it for you, but, you know, lawsuits. so we have to follow at least some of the rules they lay out for us. anyway, he has added social media phenom to his resume, and this social media is really about these kind of hilarious and inspirational life advice, which he sometimes calls major keys on snapchat. maybe he is kidding when he says they don't want you to eat lunch. but nevertheless, he has established an admirably strong anti "they" stance. he indicates there is an establishment, a system of power discouraging you from doing something. so you should challenge the establishment by doing it anyway. it's a message that perhaps could prove useful in this political climate. >> major key alert. they don't want us to have health care. they don't want us to have obamacare. so what we're going to do is care about our life and get that health care. >> you see, that kind of sums up the message of bernie sanders caring in iowa.

they don't want you to vote for him! so you should! sometimes they is the dnc for not yet adding additional debates to the calendar. sometimes they is wall street or the "washington post" or even planned parenthood. they is money and special interests. they is definitely hillary clinton. and bernie's major key, they don't want you to feel the burn, so you should. joining me now is maria, executive producer and anchor of humanizing america. and latina usa. senior fellow at media matters for america. and senior editor for "ebony" digital. and simone sanders, national secretary for the sanders campaign, who joins us from des moines, iowa. so is bernie, who i have said before, spends more time on, you know, being covered by -- not that he's on there, right. being covered by world star hip-hop than anybody but dj, is

he making this argument, is this the closing argument in iowa, that there is an establishment that doesn't want sanders, and so that's in part why voters, caucusers should choose him? >> thank you for having me this morning, melissa. i think our closing argument in iowa is that, you know, yes, we live in a rigged economy that is kept in place by a system of corrupt campaign finance. and bernie doesn't think that's right. bernie is not participating in that system. bernie is here for the people, and that's what this campaign is about. so we're asking people, you know, to come out and caucus on monday, and because this campaign is not just about getting bernie sanders elected. this campaign is about every day, hard-working americans, those people that deserve that $15 minimum wage, the people that deserve the health care that dj was talking about. so that is a part of our closing argument. we've got that enthusiasm, we've got the momentum, and i have been in the office all week, and we definitely have a good ground game. >> so talk to me -- get to the

iowa for a minute. i actually get why this argument taps into a kind of oppositional consciousness as, for example, lawrence levine might talk about. they don't want you to eat breakfast, you better eat that breakfast. but is there an oppositional consciousness in iowa caucus-goers? is it a useful argument for closing with iowa caucusers? >> i think it's a classic anti establishment campaign, right? and the democratic party has always been open to that. we have never had a primary where there wasn't someone from the outside saying, hey, let's take a different view, let's take this outside washington. now they probably mentioned planned parenthood. sometimes when you get into this anti, anti, anti, you kind of run into trouble. if bernie signals out planned parenthood as they're against us, any democrat i think running for national office, especially after what planned parenthood went through this last year, pointing out them as kind of a -- an opponent, they think

everything is fine there. but when you become anti establishment everything, you do run into a problem. but yeah. no, this makes sense for the democratic party and makes sense for iowa. and it makes sense for people who want to have, you know, a larger debate. we have never -- quick point. a democratic primary has never been a coronation. we have never had a coronation on any primary. we're always going to have a good fight. i mean, go back to bradley gore. everyone thought gore was going to walk. iowa-new hampshire were a dog fight. >> right. what i would say is great, but it didn't initially look that way. just real quick on this point about planned parenthood, because it was a moment that felt like a misstep this week on this kind of oppositional position to say, oh, you know, there are all these groups again. clearly there has been a six-figure ad by planned parenthood nationally for mrs. clinton. they have endorsed her campaign. but does that make them an establishment that is against mr. sanders? >> of course not, melissa. and the senator clarified his

comments on rachel maddow the days after. and what he was saying, of course, planned parenthood itself is not the establishment. the senator has a 100% pro choice voting record. he has fought with planned parenthood, he has fought with naral, stood up with women's productive rights. so he wasn't talking about planned parenthood and the hard-working folks at planned parenthood across the country. but what he was referring to were washington-based organizations that vote one way, and the people that they represent vote another way. and we have seen that with many of these unions across the country. lots of unions have come out and endorsed other candidates in this race. but the members of these unions across the country are standing with other candidates. there are hundreds of thousands of union members standing with senator sanders. so, of course, you know, planned parenthood is not the establishment. the senator was not knocking planned parenthood. and i think people see that and know that. >> let me come out for a second. what do you make of my claim

here around -- around cal ed? he did a thing around jeb bush. you can see him in the corner there. hold on one second. i want to listen to him talking to bush, and you can weigh in on that. >> you know i rock with obama. obama should lose. but jeb bush, seems like you need some advice. i'm going to give you the key to success and motivate you. they don't want you to win! they don't want you to have breakfast! a healthy breakfast of green apples. that's the key. apples. >> and jeb was funny enough to tweet back. oh, you know, i had my green apple today, right? so, you know, it felt to me like there is this sort of -- again, this question of running against the establishment does feel like part of the overall theme of this particular election season. >> absolutely. i think they who don't want jeb bush to win is the majority. >> republican and democratic

party. >> the anti establishment. we may be unified on that. >> oh, no. poor jeb. >> poor jeb. you know, this senator sanders does represent something really interesting. and if we think of president obama in the infancy of his campaign as anti establishment, he didn't speak to a they, right? it wasn't the idea of people not wanting you to have things. it was imagine a better world. hope, change. something different. it wasn't necessarily about being radical or revolutionary. it was just imagine that we could do something a little bit better than what we have done before. to have someone nearly eight years later come forward and say, forget it all, there's an establishment, there's a regime, there needs to be a change. i want you to be radical. that sanders has continued to drive this message that he has not hidden from the word socialist but kept it integral to his messaging is something we

certainly haven't seen in my lifetime, and i'm really interested to see how voters react to that. >> that's interesting. because there have been a lot of comparisons to the senator obama away campaign here. but you're actually doing a little bit of a different thing, because you're right. obama '08 was about -- if there was a they, it was a historical they. it wasn't an existing they. stick with us, everybody. except i want to say thank you to simone sanders in iowa. i know you're running to do all the work. i'll see you again tomorrow, on the ground in des moines. and so good to see you live a long with my students there. everybody else, stay right there. because hillary clinton also thinks that they don't want her to be president, and that's next. but as we go to break, let's listen in as jeb bush talks to his supporters in iowa right now. >> you know the place i would first work to change the culture and change direction is the department of veterans' affairs. these men and many others in this room have served this country, in an extraordinary way.

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that was one of hillary clinton's latest ads. and she continues to demonstrate that bernie sanders is not the only one who can pitch himself an outsider. clinton also seems to have a dj khalid style debate. so i want to ask a little bit about this, in part because for

me, i am now officially old enough to remember that the clintons were outsiders, right? and that they, in fact, initially ran, and i really do say they at this point, in part because she was also running as -- you know, they don't want you to have a first lady who is smart, willing to govern alongside, you know, her partner. that, in fact, they really did come in the early '90s as a -- as a different kind of outsider. and i feel sometimes like that has gotten lost in the description of the clintons as establishment now. >> so i'm just watching. i have two millennial latino voters in my home. they know i don't take a position. i listen to them, i listen to my husband, and use them as my guinea pigs. so i would reveal that my daughter eight years ago was a staunch hillary supporter. she would take on fights in her -- whatever it was. when she was in militanddle sch because all of her friends were

supporting obama. the other morning after the debate, she calls me up, and she was like, "mom, i get the bernie thing." >> interesting. >> and i'm like, okay. what -- and i said so what did you think? and she said, he's talking about money and banks. and i was like, my 17-year-old daughter, who will be voting is talking to me about money and politics at 8:00 in the morning, after the debate. and so -- and i'm just kind of judging from them. they don't -- while they don't have the history that memory of the outsiders, i think something is changing in the sense that being a woman, at least for my daughter, you know, is just not enough right now. >> so is that -- is that what that -- is that part of what is happening around the outsider claim here, is that to the extent that the clinton campaign may be using a more identity-based outsider claim in this moment, that an identity-based claim is going to work less well than a kind of

structural policy based outsider claim. >> there has been commentary she did run this campaign in 2008. she didn't talk about being an historical figure and things like that. and maybe she should have then. now -- she's just more comfortable now. i think this is who she is. look, when you're secretary of state when you've been on the national stage for a quarter century, it's harder to do that outsider thing. look, if you want to talk about the they who don't want to, you know, i would say clinton is a little unusual. she is running against sanders, against the gop, which has been advertising against her, and she is running against the press. nobody has to run against all three. she knew this wasn't going to be a cake walk. and it's not. >> so this is -- this is perhaps for me the one thing that keeps making me think that the press and maybe even democrats want to see kind of a good fight and not a coronation, are overblowing the sanders narrative. and it is that during republican debates, they act like only one person is running. and the very fact that the only person they are running against is hillary clinton suggests to

me -- who is a challenge for them. and, in fact, right now it is once again all about the e-mails, right? so now the discourse emerges again about the e-mails. and i just wonder, if they only see hillary clinton as a threat, is that either indicative that they have a piece of information there, or that they are misreading sanders? in other words, they're underestimating sanders as a potential threat. >> you know, it's hard to understand what the gop strategy is at this point. considering that there are more candidates still in the race than we can adequately fit and discuss one by one during a two-hour news program. the one thing we are clear on, they are running against hillary clinton. that is one thing they agree on. and i don't think that means that the sanders narrative is being overblown. so the polling number is the same. look, he presents if nothing else, a threat in new hampshire. and iowa. and that's a serious threat. and iowa changed the course of history, just a few years ago. i just wonder if the clinton

campaign -- entered feeling this would be a coronation, you can count on the endorsement of president obama. you can count on the people who said, look, the temperature of the presidency has changed. we have seen a black man, we can certainly imagine a white woman. it should not be such a great fight for me to get this. i'm qualified. >> i want to make one claim about the virgin of '90s outsider, they don't want it. and it really was that when they came in -- when bill clinton came in and triangulated in the early '90s, his argument was, they don't want you to pick a democrat who can win. because in '84 and '88, it was kind of a less democrat who won the nomination and lost in the general. and he's like, i know i'm to the right of them, but if you pick me, i can win in the generals and then he did twice, right? and in a way that, is the argument, right? the safe argument that hillary clinton is making again, actually is that old fashioned one. so she is saying, they just don't want you to have a democrat who can win.

so interesting to see. it's all very dj khalid. thank you for coming. are you going to iowa? >> not making it out. >> yeah, it's -- it's cold. okay. and to -- we are going to be back later in the program. but up next, we're going to go to iowa live on the ground, as the two-day caucus countdown continues. but as we go to break, let us take a listen to senator marco rubio, as he addresses his supporters in iowa. >> we will fix our tax code. we will roll back regulations. we will save social security and medicare. we will deal with the national debt. we will fully utilize our energy resources. and if we do that, there will be no economy better in the world than ours to create jobs. we will become the single best place on this planet to start a business or grow an existing one and create the best-paying jobs the 21st economy can provide. [ applause ]

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wednesday night during rachel maddow's crisis in flint town hall, the president's national action network summed up flint residents' feelings about who is to blame for water that has been poisoning them for months. >> i was thinking about what i was going to say on the way here. and i felt like marshawn lynch, all i've got to say is governor snyder gotta go. >> now, it's true that flint's mayor and city council okayed the decision to switch the city's water source from detroit's system to a yet to be completed pipeline that would bring fresh water from lake huron. so why are flint citizens blaming the person in charge of the state? well, because there is no record

that city officials voted to use the tainted water from the flint river in the meantime. the final call on that decision came from emergency managers who were hand-picked by and reported to michigan governor rick snyder. and as the "new york times" points out this week, in flint, emergency managers not only oversaw the city, effectively seizing legal authority from the mayor and city council, but also pressed to switch the source of the financially troubled city's water supply to save money. michigan's emergency manager law gives an unelected person appointed by the governor the power to make decisions for financially challenging the school districts. and flint has been under the control of six emergency managers in the last 13 years. the city's current mayor linked directly to the water crisis. >> democracy needs to be restored in flint. that's what's happened. that's how we got here.

we didn't have a voice. it was taken. >> it's not just flint. according to a 2013 report from the atlantic, while the city is under emergency management together, containing 9% of the population, they contained no notably half of the state's african-american residents, which means those michiganders stripped of their political power under the law are more likely to be economically disadvantaged, african-americans. in a reality that made michigan's emergency manager policy the target of a federal lawsuit from the detroit branch of the naacp in 2013. the suit claimed that the law created a disparate impact that violated voting rights under the 14th amendment. and according to the detroit naacp president, white municipalities that experienced similar distress did not come under similar oversight. a judge ruled the lawsuit could not move forward on technical grounds, but this week the naacp continued the fight, and on wednesday, national naacp president cornell williams

brooks presented governor snyder with a 15-point plan to address flint's water crisis. among the top priorities is a call to repeal michigan's emergency manager law. joining my panel now is carla holloway, professor of english, law, and african-american studies at duke university and from washington, d.c., president cornell william brooks. mr. brooks, what in the world of democracy have to do with clean water in flint, michigan? >> a democracy has everything to do with clean water in flint, michigan. when we think about this lead-based katrina for the citizenry of flint, he began not with contamination, but rather with legislation. that is to say public act 436, which provides dictatorial powers for the emerged manager. in other words, you have a state official who was able to suspend city council meetings, able to

suspend city ordnances. able to cancel labor contracts. able to basically oversee and overrun, if you will, the fiscal and political decisions of a municipality. and as you so well pointed out, while 9% of michigan citizens are under emergency managers, it represents 50% of the african-american population and well more than that, when we consider citizens of color. so the point being here, this is not nearly a catastrophe in environmental terms. it is a catastrophe in civic terms. it is precisely because you had a unaccountable, unelected state official making a disastrous choice not in the best interests of the citizens of flint, but rather driven by fiscal concerns that we have led in the blo bloodstreams of children. it is a profoundly democratic question, and catastrophe in fli

flint, michigan. >> so carla, i want to come to you on this. because it feels to me like in a moment like this, it is so easy to go to the symbolism, right? the people of flint represent -- and so i appreciate, for example, what mr. brooks did there with the lead -- >> katrina, certainly. >> so i both appreciate it, and i recognize the danger in it. because in each case, in the case of katrina, for my family, for my neighbors, for all of us who even a decade later have to deal with the city officials who take victory laps around the graves of people a decade later, right? and the same thing in this context of flint that here in this place where children have boils on their skin, where they are poisoned by, as mr. brooks is saying, the choices made by unelected folks that they both are absolute indications of the power of democracy.

at the intersection of law and symbolism. >> i'm worried about the symbolism, and i'm worried about the symbolism precisely because as soon as this moves out of the news cycle, we have right here an irreversible neuro toxin in these children's systems. a new cycle will move on, our attention will be the same that happened to katrina. they will become symbols, and yet these children and these classrooms and these families and communities will be dealing with this for decades. it will become a structural problem, it will become a cultural problem. and what i really worry about is the way in which the victims of this particular incident -- i'm holding back from saying crime. this particular incident will become the kind of metaphorical reference rather than real bodies with real problems like the boils that will go on to be things that happened in developing children. >> so cornell, this is why --

it's so important for me that we take a moment to focus on this part, because yes, a neuro and physiological, but also the political, right? >> that's right. >> that we will both need to establish all of the reparation necessary for addressing the physical consequences here, but also we're going to restore some version of democracy in this space. >> that's right. i mean, we can't ignore. we shouldn't blink, morally or otherwise, the human cost and the human toll of this. when you see a child with a rash on his back, when you see parents who are fighting to death the consequences of this crisis for their children, that's real. and we cannot lose sight of the humanity. but focusing on the humanity points to the underlying problem with democracy. and the fact of the matter is, that it is because of this law that we have this crisis. and if we respond to this

democratic crisis with specific policy reforms. so, for example, we need a victim fund. just as was pointed out, this is a generational problem. we have neuro toxins, which is just another way of saying, basically, brain poison in the bloodstreams of children, which has a consequence in terms of the developmental progress of children, learning disabilities, behavioral challenges. and so the point being, we have to have a fund to address that. point two. we have called upon the justice department to look into investigating and looking for options to hold this city and state accountable. title 6 seems like a viable vehicle. in addition to that, we have called for a real fiscal response here. the point being here, where you have advocates talking about billions of dollars in terms of

infrastructure replacement, and the governor calling for in excess of $20 million for a short term response. the point being here is responsibility can be measured in money and right now what we have is a response that is underresponsive and irresponsible. we've got to step up and address this problem. we have the federal delegation, congressional delegation talking about hundreds of millions of dollars. >> and we -- and that is -- is the response. more on this. i want to say thank you to cornell brooks in washington, d.c. when we come back, there are more folks who are being impacted. there's also more folks who are responsible. i am looking at you, secretary jeh johnson.

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♪jake reese, "day to feel alive"♪ ♪jake reese, "day to feel alive"♪ ♪jake reese, "day to feel alive"♪ its been four months since the city of flint, three months since they were urged not to drink water and weeks since the contamination prompted state and

federal governments to declare a state of emergency. up until recently, many in the communities of undocumented immigrants were still drinking and bathing and in the lead contaminated water. flint's spanish-only speakers missed the message, because they said it only had been delivered in english language only flyers and media. many were not able to get bolted water, because water distribution sites required state issue i.d. that undocumented people cannot apply for, and deportation fears, mr. johnson, have also made some of flint's undocumented immigrants reluctant to open their doors to uniformed national guard members, who are going house to house with clean water and supplies. joining me via skype from flint is one of the local advocates who have helped to step in to provide resources and support from the community, victoria ortega is an immigration lawyer

and member of flint's our lady of guadalupe church. can you explain to me this issue around the state-issued i.d.s, because isn't clean water an international human right? it's not supposed to be tied to citizenship, right? >> we believe that it is. it's a right, it's a human right. everyone should be able to get clean water. that's essential for us. >> so can you talk to me about the deportation fear piece, because, you know, we have been very clear about linking the emergency manager piece back to mr. schneider, back to the governor, a republican governor who made choices that created this lead poisoning. but i don't want to let homeland security secretary jeh johnson and his deportation sweeps at the behest of the obama administration that have struck fear in so many communities off the hook here, because it is part of my understanding about why at least some groups of children are continuing to be

poisoned in that community, because they are too afraid to, in fact, accept the help. >> yeah. that's been a long-term issue here. deportation, as we know, is at an all-time high. a lot of people are afraid to go into public offices. a lot of people are afraid to step forward. your name is on a list. you don't want your name on a list. another thing here is that they need the i.d.s in order to be sure that the people in flint are getting services. but again, that raises the same issue for these folks that i don't want my name on the list. >> yep. this is what fear looks like in the united states of america today. the consequences. >> yeah. i mean, we don't have -- because we don't talk about it so much -- we do on latino usa. but on the national media, this notion of people coming to your home at 5:00 in the morning and banging on your door, it's interesting that the people from michigan from flint were not

opening the door. they knew that they were like well, we don't have to open the door, because right now, of course, there is this misrepresentation of who is at the door, presenting themselves as police when they're immigration agents. so when we think about living in the united states of america with this kind of fear, we're talking about an underground community. and i was thinking about my notes, and i was writing -- you know, underground. this is what an underground community -- and i was like underground railroad. we have to understand that there is an underground now in this moment in history that is before our eyes. and actually, i think that if the good people of flint knew where their neighbors were who are undocumented, i believe that they would actually go and help them. but these are communities of undocumented immigrants in a community like flint that have so underground, they may not know where they are. right? so that's how deep we're talking about. and the notion that you're afraid to come out of your home? again, melissa, it is important. i find it interesting that you said jeh johnson.

i'm saying barack obama. >> oh, sure. hey -- >> i'm saying barack obama, and michelle obama to meet with these families. >> i mean, maybe. but, look, for me its not a first lady moment. it is -- it is the department of homeland security making a decision. and i presume that is a decision that is coming from the administration. i don't really know. because i have asked mr. johnson repeatedly to be on my tv show, and he will not. so that is why i keep calling on mr. johnson. any time he would like to sit down with me -- maybe i'm all wrong. but i want to come back to maria's point here. this does feel to me like potentially a black/brown coalition moment. because i don't want the obama administration's final year to be marreded by a fugitive slave law around the question of, this deportation that leads in the context of flint of actually children being poisoned because the parents are too afraid to open the door for clean water. >> you know what is one of the

most terrifying moments for me is the possibility that a republican could become the next president and that this precedent has been set by a democrat. that we can come into your house at 4:00 or 5:00 in the morning while you're asleep, take you and your family away -- if a democrat is doing that, what happens next when we have candidates that have said, i'm not letting muslims in, and i have no problem putting all of you brown people out. that's terrifying. >> ma'am. ms. ortega -- can i ask you to speak on that? >> well, right now we do know -- we all know that deportation is at an all-time high. that that's a genuine fear for people. if a policeman knocks on the door and says, "police water, we're giving water away," the first thing you hear is "police" and that's where it stops. but we also need to be aware that the state -- the local authorities are trying very hard to work with us. it's important. it's essential to everyone that we get this water. and so we're getting a lot of support, we're getting some written materials from the state that are in spanish.

we're hearing from catholic charities, from red cross, and they are saying, no, we will not turn anyone away. so those doors are open. the big thing now is we need to get the word out, and we need to find out what's going to happen in the future with these folks. because if you're undocumented, you don't have insurance. and you have to look for what insurance you can get from that. the insurance -- or the agencies that are offering free services. >> so i can imagine, carla, an announcement that says, we are in a crisis, right? we're in a situation where as we were talking about, irreversible health, neurological damage to children, to families, and so the federal government simply saying, you know what, in fact we are putting a full stop on deportation for a month. >> yeah. >> for six weeks. for some period to say, hey, sometimes things are so bad that the reality of -- in these communities, so serious, that we want to actually tamp down the

fear long enough for people to give help. and then we'll get back to our whole homeland security anxieties in 15 minutes. >> everything is in the and then and in this power we have come to see as normative of emergency management. this stuff started in michigan after i left. i'm a michigan -- former michigan resident. i still drink the -- not any more. the whole idea of going into black and brown communities and taking over the financial management, declaring emergency, has now morphed into what we consider the manufacture of national emergency around the issue of immigration. these patterns of learning to be afraid of i.c.e. agents are now rehearsed. i know not to open my door at 4:00 or 5:00 in the morning because i know what happened to my neighbor who looked like me, who had the same skin tone as me. so if these are the things we learn to understand and remember, even declaring an

emergency for this moment. until i decide is that an emergency? >> and i want to take a listen for a second. because what was interesting to me is that the moderators from fox news did actually ask a flint water crisis question on thursday, and i'm going to listen to governor kasich's response. i thought it was a smart response. >> people at home are saying they've got a problem. listen to them. because most of the time, they're absolutely correct. so the fact is, we work for the people, the people don't work for us, and we have to have an attitude when we're in government of servant hood. >> so for me, this was -- i mean, you know, whatever -- however you want to adjudicate indicate his honesty, it was a smart response to say, look, actually the people had been saying that there was a problem for a long time, even where the sciences showed up, and that, in fact, government is meant to serve the people. and i just thought, how long has it been since we have heard

someone in elected office say that. >> the constitutional impact of this, right? that you have now a generation of young people, let's say, whose parents are immigrants, because i imagine many young people in flint were born there. but they are carrying the residual impact of i don't want to have anything to do with any law enforcement, whoever looks like this. and i remember when there were floods in colorado, and the same thing happened. people were knocking on their door to save people, and they were like, i'm not opening the door. so it's now becoming a generational issue, because we can't ignore the fact that these are children born here. who are going to be growing up, looking at law enforcement as something that is not there. and every law enforcement -- >> that sounds familiar! thank you, victoria ortega in flint, michigan. right here in new york. and maria and carla are going to be back in our next hour. coming up, we're going to go back live to the campaign trail, as the countdown to the iowa caucuses continue! at the source

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the presidential candidates are spending the final hours before the iowa caucuses with a flurry of campaigning across the state. right now senator ted cruz is scheduled to address supporters in hubbard, iowa. nbc's halle jackson joins us now. halle, does the cruz campaign see a pathway to victory in the iowa caucuses on monday? >> reporter: absolutely. and they see that pathway to victory, melissa, through their organization on the ground. let me give a sense of where we're. we are in ames. we're going to walk the line as we chat and showing what things are happening. from day one, the cruz campaign has talked about trying to be successful in iowa, and doing so by really hitting that ground game hard. they've got thousands of volunteers here. they opened a couple dorms. they call them camp cruz to bring people in and get out the vote. as we know, it's going to be all

about turnout on monday night, and the cruz campaign feels confident people who support the senator here in iowa will end up actually going to the caucuses and participating, which is a question mark in some ways with supporters from the other candidates like a donald trump. i want to stop here. this is jersey central, melissa. turn around here for me. the cruz jerseys. you're seeing these thwarted through. and the senator, the last push he's making is to get out not just on the ground, but the retail politicking, and this is the preevent set up. you can see some of the media here setting up, getting sort of the backdrop ready and all of that. so this is what it looks like before a campaign event. we've got more than 40 of them here in the state today from all the republican candidates in this last big push to monday night, melissa. >> so i love the iowa caucuses, i can't wait to get there later tonight. >> i know.

>> thank you to halle jackson in ames, iowa. i also want to say thank you to the other folks who will be back in the next hour. but coming up next, what's donald trump and wiz khalifa have in common? and what a republican president might do if president obama's criminal justice legacy is on the table. there's more at the top of the hour. hing better. and what an amazing time it's been, decade after decade of innovation, inspiration and wonder. so, we say thank you america for a century of trust, for the privilege of flying higher and higher, together. ♪ i thione second it's there.day. then, woosh, it's gone. i swear i saw it swallow seven people. seven. i just wish one of those people could have been mrs. johnson.

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make sure your doctor hears you too! i hear you because i was there when my dad suffered with diabetic nerve pain. if you have diabetes and burning, shooting pain in your feet or hands, don't suffer in silence! step on up and ask your doctor about diabetic nerve pain. tell 'em cedric sent you. welcome back. i'm melissa harris-perry. we're two days from the iowa caucus. the very first votes cast in the 2016 presidential election. and we here at msnbc have our eyes all over that state, with the hottest ticket right now, actually not in an iowa caucusers' mitten. hamilton. the hip-hop musical about our founding fathers. we're talking sold-out seats. it's an obama family favorite.

thousands of fans cursing last weekend's blizzard for cancelling saturday's show, because this hip-hop romp set in the 18th century has helped to redefine not only theatre, but also the ways in which we think about politics and understand our past. through hip-hop, we learn about the federalists on our $10 bill who famously died after a skirmish with long-time friendly president burr. old-school rap rivalries. telling the "new york times," quote, it's a hip-hop story. it's tupac. now, the ways in which we slay our opponents now is different than in hamilton's day, but it was everywhere this week on twitter, and the gop debate. first, there's the beat that went super nova on twitter about the shape of the planet. seriously. rapper b.o.b. decided to propagate the old earth is flat myth this week with tweets like once you go flat you never go

back. where is the curve? his tweets drew the attention of world renown astro physicist and super vest wearer neil de grasse tyson who promptly debunked the claims on twitter. and that's when things escalated into an actual rap battle! here's b.o.b.'s disk track. ♪ ♪ neil tyson need to loosen up his vest ♪ ♪ ♪ that line fooled us for the last time ♪ >> the incredible response was rapid by his nephew. ♪ you say the earth is flat and that you try to disrespect him ♪ ♪ i'm bringing facts to the silly theory ♪ ♪ because b.o.b. has got to know ♪ >> to be clear, five centuries regressed in your reasoning doesn't mean we all can't still like your music. >> mike drop. so alongside that feud, there was also the epic beef between hip-hop heavy hitters kanye west

and wiz khalifa. when wiz suggested that the new album name "wave" was a rip-off of harlem rapper max b. kanye blasted back in a mixture of diss and compliments? no one i know has ever listened to one of your albums all the way through, he tweeted to wiz, followed by, i think you dress cool. #wizwearscoolpants. you know what else we saw buried underneath the beef? minus the hip-hop and the powdered wigs, senator ted cruz on thursday challenged his absent opponent ultimate beefer, donald trump, to a duel in front of a live audience. and per kanye west to wiz, first came the insults. ♪ i'm a maniac. and everyone on this stage is stupid, fat and ugly. and ben, you're a terrible surgeon. now that we've gotten the donald trump portion out of the way --

>> okay. then that was followed with props. >> i am glad donald is running. i'm glad he has produced enormous enthusiasm, and that every donald trump voter or potential voter, i hope to earn your support. i know everyone else on this stage hopes to earn your support. >> i just love -- we see presidential candidates channelling hip-hop beefing isn't such a bad idea, because like in the world of hip-hop, the most important thing to remember in politics, never alien ate the fans. joining me now is boris epstein, the republican strategist and former communications aide for the mccain-palin campaigns. also, the executive producer and anchor of mpr's latino usa. senior editor here at msnbc.com. and jordan, political analyst and former senior adviser for policy for senator rand paul's campaign. so fun to have you all here. i'm sorry for my silly intro.

but i really did see this kind of, like, you know, part of what ted cruz had to do was all -- all of them had to do with mr. trump gone was to say he's terrible, but not that terrible, because i still want his supporters to now want me. >> and for trump to not go after him, because he's a stupid beefer, right? >> you will lose that one. >> you will go down. >> right. >> into icu. >> what trump did the other night was really basically just a brilliant setup to have everyone go at ted cruz. and he knew there is so much loathing of ted cruz up on that stage, and he by putting ted in the front runner position, everyone just went for it. >> in fact, let's listen to ted cruz saying everybody is kind of beating me up here. let's take a listen to that. >> let's begin by being clear what this campaign is b. it's not about donald trump. >> i kind of miss donald trump. he was a teddy bear to me. we always had such a loving

relationship in these debates. and in between and the tweets. i kind of miss him. i wish he was here. >> well, so that wasn't it. so let's pause a second and let's listen to the one i was calling for initially. >> chris, i would note that the last four questions have been rand, please attack ted, marco please attack ted, jeb, please attack ted. >> it is a debate, sir. >> no, no, a debate actually is a policy issue. but i will say this. gosh, if you guys say -- ask one more mean question, i may have to leave the stage. >> so was that an -- i'll leave if you keep being mean to me? is. >> all the republican folks i follow on twitter were like, folks, you're seeing the real ted cruz here. hope you know this is what you're getting if you decide to elect this guy. i was noticing, maria -- melissa, about the other beefs that were exposed with trump not being on the stage. and rubio versus cruz on immigration. rubio versus christie, governor

versus senator. you know, senators don't do anything, according to christie. rand paul versus christie. on national security. rand paul versus rubio on national security. and jeb versus rubio, sort of the father and prodigal son. a lot of beefs. >> and kasich. very interesting. kasich stayed out of any frontal attack, and he has done some really good work in new hampshire. you have seen some polls almost up to 20% in there. now bush is also up to 18%. and so the people maybe who are beefing the least are doing the best with trump not there. >> so it's -- you know, i called two years ago -- i just sort of looking at the field before anything happened, including the trump phenomenon. i thought that kasich looked strongest on paper candidate. what you want is a midwestern governor, right? and, again, maybe not for the primaries, but come general election time, you want a midwestern governor. you want to pair him with somebody like a nikki haley from the south, a woman of color, who -- i mean, that ticket is a

really hard one for democrats to beat. but it is hard for me to imagine a kasich -- if you just look at sort of the number of minutes that people had to talk, how in the world would caucusers or voters have any idea who john kasich is to vote for him? >> those debates don't mean as much as we think -- they mean a lot in terms of voters first getting to know somebody. but especially in iowa, it's hand to hand combat. in iowa, it's all about being out there. kasich has done that well there, and very well in new hampshire. so is christie. >> but the debate is this last debate, especially, important in the sense that it is three days before and the debate on immigration. very important -- >> it was. >> in iowa. also how rubio and cruz are really navigating the fine line and how cruz is also seeing his lead. he really peaked to early and now has become the battering ram for the other candidates. and now he's trying to set expectations. oh, let's forget about iowa. we're going to do really well in the s.e.c. states. >> so my question was, actually, when i was watching rubio doing

his immigration thing, and i actually tweeted and said, could marco rubio get as many latino votes as george w. bush? the way he was speaking, i was like, i don't know if he can do this. and what the republican party needs is that. but if you're -- when i was talking to latinos on the ground, their response was, this is pushing us even further away. and he's going to have to have that latino vote, like george w. now. >> but so marco rubio was being -- experienced alien ating? fascinating, because i was thinking, oh, my goodness, he looks dangerous to me. >> it's not to say he doesn't look presidential. but the way he was talking about these things was so kind of adamant that that's the response i was seeing. >> he did say, we are not going to deport 11 million people and came flat out and said that. admittedly -- trump has been the guy. >> holding things down, right? meanwhile, there is no resolution. and -- >> the problem of rubio is no

one really knows where he stands. i as a republican cannot tell you for sure where rubio stands on immigration. you know why? because i'm not sure he knows where he stands on immigration. he goes back and forth. and you brought up george w. bush. to me, his brother, jeb bush, has been somewhat consistent, and unites the most people. >> i was going to say, jeb for the first time -- and not -- not that i'm sure he can even maintain this, but without trump on the stage, for the first time, it felt like o, that's why he thought he could run. i mean, again, i still think -- it's fascinating. not from which in terms of support for the policies, but you could see what a strong campaigner george w. is relative to jeb, just in watching jeb run this time. but for the first time, when trump wasn't on the stage, you kind of saw jeb straighten up a little bit, right? >> and i think rand paul did really well. i thought all of them -- suddenly it was this is the campaign that would have been. >> right. >> and focusing on policy

instead of these petty insults that we're letting -- i just feel like the republican field in general with this -- with the exception of a few candidates like rand paul, like jeb, who have really gone after trump, have let trump get away with just being this misogynistic jerk. >> so this is -- i want to talk about my favorite beef of the night, which is megyn kelly, and trump. >> awesome job. >> who did an awesome job. so awesome, she kept him from being in the fight for that night. the "new york times" just endorsed hillary clinton for president. we're going to have more on that when we come back. i was going to give it a try, but i didn't think it was going to really happen. after one week of chantix, i knew i could quit. along with support, chantix (varenicline) is proven to help people quit smoking. chantix definitely helped reduce my urge to smoke. some people had changes in behavior, thinking or mood, hostility, agitation, depressed mood and suicidal thoughts or actions while taking or after stopping chantix. some had seizures while taking chantix. if you have any of these, stop chantix and call your doctor right away. tell your doctor about any history

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seven years that is the disaster that is barack obama. >> so that was marco rubio, at least trying to turn the fight external, right? so you point out we saw all of those internal beefs emerged, especially with donald trump off the stage. but i've got to say, i still think it's weird they keep running against a two-term, term-limited president. like, in fact, no matter what happens, president obama will be done, because, in fact, the constitution says so. so we could just move on. like, i'm not sure that you can say that hillary clinton is the keeper of the obama legacy. in fact, i think that's what we're battling for right now. >> i never thought i would say this so quickly, but i agree with you. marco rubio came out with that in his opening statement and first response. i was surprised. i really was. i thought it was way too strong against the current president. i agree with marco rubio that the current policies have been detrimental, but we need to talk about the future and go back to the reagan policy and talk about the city on the hill that can

be. >> oh, you mean rhetorically. >> i think that's nice in theory, but in practice pulls really well to attack barack obama as a primary strategy. just like in 2008, to attack george w. bush. he's an incumbent -- >> which obama did a ton, you're right. >> i'm sorry. i don't recall anybody talking about kicking george w. bush's fanny or rear end. >> oh, yeah. that was kricrick. chris christie. >> that was horrifying. >> that one was -- >> that was over the top. >> that was out of hand. >> used the word "stupid" a lot. >> and not in -- >> not by candidates. so i will say, i do think there are two things. i think what pundits and pollsters and people do is one thing. i think what people who are planning to be the president of the united states is different. and i do think that mr. christie went over the top. i also think that what mr. rubio did there was not the same thing. mr. rubio saying i think his policies are a disaster is a perfectly -- i disagree. but i think it's fine.

>> donald was doing that in 2011. >> but the tone, i kept feeling like, god, i don't want to live in this country any more, the way they're talking about it. it's just like, whoa, there's nothing hopeful. it was so negative. >> let me ask if mr. trump is -- that -- because i will agree, it felt more negative. and i am wondering if that is one of the things that trump has brought to the republican side, is that he does a kind of like -- we're going to win. it's not that i have a ton of content. but it does have a kind of like, well, if i'm president accident we're going to win. >> we're going to make it gravy. >> right. again, it's just a rhetorical thing out there, but it -- it produces something that -- >> i feel like he has approached this campaign with such an utter lack of decency, just in how you treat other human beings. and it's been such a trickle down effect, especially with his supporters. like, i was shocked to see this article in "time." i thought it was awesome.

about the sexism of trump's campaign and how many times he called megyn kelly the absolutely worst word. and it's the trickle down and the kind of leader you are. and i to think it's really important. >> she really was very, very strong. she was awesome. i am running a program, at wake forest, where i'm a college professor. my real job during the week. we have 22 students, both parties, all different, you know, perspectives, and we watch all of the debates together, and they were kind of just -- they were just watching her work, and they were like, this is a little masterful, watching how she was managing questioning those candidates. and you're right. for wanting to be in that position and then to have the front-running candidate talk about her in those ways is deeply problematic. >> which is why iowa women voters are going to be fascinating to watch. the trump conversation, specifically now, with this whole situation with megyn kelly, it's like i want to know

the women who were going to vote for donald trump. >> women in iowa and nationally support trump in pretty large numbers, because of his other positions, that he is saying things that people want to say. airing concerns that people want to talk about. not just immigration. so he is not killing himself for women in his feud with megyn kelly, because meg en kelly -- >> she's a controversial person. she can take care of herself. >> but the numbers for trump among women in a general election are terrible. he is net 36 -- >> terrible in general. >> but for some reason if you look at the numbers of him against hillary and bernie, he's still winning. you look at the head-to-head match-ups in the polls. >> it's so early, though. i think he did damage to himself. it wasn't -- probably was smarter than if he had gone and put himself in front of -- on stage. but at the same time, it looked weak. him doing that veterans event, that was essentially all about

himself. it was -- you hear what trump was talking about when cutting in -- >> yep. >> the little amount of time i spent watching that on commercial breaks on the other debate and it was all about trump. it wasn't about the veterans. >> that's exactly -- >> i want to ask you about one big political story on the table this morning. once again, senator clinton's e-mails, which have once again shown up. i'm wondering, this close to the iowa caucuses, are they going to have an effect on what happens? >> here's what i think is going to have the effect. hillary clinton's biggest problem when you look at democratic polling, among democrats who generally like her, this is lack of trust. that's the thing that people kept expressing. and that's what in many ways ticks people over to sanders. the specifics of this particular e-mail situation, where did they overclassify these 22 e-mails, i don't think people will pay attention to that. but it reminds people of the trust issue which has been her problem, the thing dogging her and is bringing her popularity down, even among the press. >> so with the less than 48 hours, just once again -- >> it's a reminder of that

accountability people have with her. >> it's going to have more of an effect in new hampshire. than even iowa. it's almost too soon for iowa. and he may not win iowa anyway. what really matters in both democrat and republican elections is new hampshire. >> although -- here is my claim in new hampshire. iowa i just don't think she has time to fight back. but hillary clinton -- you back baby into a corner, she has a tendencypn÷ to do her best when swinging so it will be interesting to see whether new hampshire gives her lead time to punch back. thank you two. i love this panel. you all need to come back a lot. up next, president obama's bold new move, and what republican candidates are saying. when we come back.

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than 20%. we don't want them in and out of the prisons. give people a chance. we talked about criminal justice reform. we have enacted it in our state. here's the problem in this country right now. the problem is that barack obama has made law enforcement the enemy, hillary clinton has made law enforcement the enemy. >> what we need to do is make sure the war on drugs is equal protection under the law and that we don't unfairly incarcerate another generation of young african-american males. i think something has to change. i think it's a big thing that our party needs to be part of. >> president obama has made it clear that he wants criminal justice reform to be a lasting part of his legacy. something that would only happen if his successor is sympathetic to that cause. because despite bipartisan support, there are reports that senator ted cruz and others are, in fact, trying to kill reformulation in congress, leading up to the president once again to take executive action. and he did just that this week. announcing major reforms to help federal prisons using solitary confinement, citing research that prolonged periods without

human contact can cause severe and sometimes permanent psychological harm. under the president's new rules, inmates can no longer be punished with months in solitary confinement for low-level offenses. no longer can they be placed in solitary indefinitely with no plans to reintegrate them into general population. and no longer can juvenile inmates be placed in solitary for any reason, for any length of time. together, these reforms could directly affect more than 10,000 federal inmates held in solitary on any given day. in his announcement, the president cited the story of khalif browder. you may remember his story. he was accused of stealing a backpack and he was held in jail on rikers island in new york for three years without a trial starting when he was just 16. he spent two of those years in solitary. his family says caused lasting effects, even after his release including paranoia and panic

attacks. last year at the age of 22, khalif took his own life. his story clearly struck a chord with the president. we have to note the new rules for federal prisons would not have kept khalif out of solitary at rikers, which is a city jail, nor will they affect the estimated 70 to 90,000 state inmates held on any given day. joining me is glen martin, president and founder of just leadership usa, professor of english law and african-american studies at duke university and msnbc's own chief legal correspondent. we just noted that it wouldn't have kept khalif out. but obviously the president has control over what he has control over. and so i'm wondering, how impactful this might be for ultimately moving some of those city and state jails and prisons. >> first of all, i think for our president, this is about his values, right? 95% of people who go to prison return home at some point. so this is about safe communities. this is about human dignity. i'm glad he actually used the

khalif browder case to set the context for his order, because you can juxtapose his actions and inaction of our local leaders, particularly our progressive mayor, bill de blasio in new york city. the hope, however, is that by the president announcing something so courageous and so significant, that our local leaders see the cover they need, if you will, to decide to do something. the fact of the matter, as you mentioned, 70 to 90,000 people are incarcerated in cells for 22 hours a day on the local level, and we need to do something about that. again, these people are returning home. i mean, i spent time in solitary confinement. i would urge listeners who want to know what it's like to find the smallest, darkest closet in their home, lock themselves in there, find three of their most insensitive neighbors to take care of them and spend a few weeks there, it's a horrible situation. >> that point about people coming home feels to me like an important political point. but i don't want to lose the

very first piece you started with, which is the moral piece in and of itself, which is the humanity piece. >> right. >> that even if you never went home, it matters how we treat human beings. right? and it matters constitutionally. we actually said who we're going to be as a nation, but even if you're never going home, it matters how we treat human beings. and, in fact, part of it was so valuable to me about this moment, the president didn't just do this and is walk away or do it quietly on a monday. he -- the administration, valerie jarrett, they got on mpr, they wrote a "washington post" op-ed about it. they really stood behind this as a meaningful and relative -- >> and the president went to a jail. you know, he let his body be seen. the chiefs -- the commander in chief of the united states in a prison. so this story actually started earlier, with obama's humanity coming through. and he told a story -- khalif's story. you know, what more perfect victim, except that, you know,

he was a victim, finally, of the system, than a boy and a backpack, you know, who was -- >> and if parents want to think about this, we put children on a time-out stool for maybe -- if you're 2 years old, two minutes. we are doing this to children whom the most interesting line in this case to me is when justice kennedy said in his decision, children are constitutionally different. and you know -- the way i play with words, constitutionally, as in the constitution, the 8th amendment kind of thing, or constitutionally their body. so at some point, we are being allowed to think exactly of that question, and the ethics, and the ideas of recidivism, and who do they come back as. because i have had some experience with that, as well. and what does our -- what do the ways in which we treat children in prison say about us as human beings. and i'm thinking our language of treating a child in prison is just oxymoronic.

>> how we treat a child in prison. >> exactly. >> there is so much here. you're talking about how the court looks at the rights of minors, which is both as less and more. less in the speech context. children have less rights to have free speech in school. more, though, in these physical contexts under the law. the supreme court also ruled, saying that these life sentences given to minors should be more appealable, because it is so grave to take someone who is 16 and write off the rest of their life. they haven't even entered into the adult system in any meaningful way. you think about the ethics of what you're talking about and treatment. and you talked about having lived this, which is something that a lot of people watching around this table may not know. a victim. a prisoner of our enemy's treatment. john mccain, right? who we all know as a hero, who went through that. he said -- i'm quoting him, that the hardest thing he went through, wasn't the physical torture. it was the solitary confinement. so if we think about your point -- put aside the fact that

in mr. browder's case, he was never convicted of anything. >> or even tried! >> so this thing that john mccain called torture is what the state of new york, which is not the most conservative place -- sometimes we like to write this off, oh, it's worse -- this is something where the state of new york, blue new york, that's how he was treated as a minor by something john mccain calls torture before he ever got his rights of due process. so that humanity that is being broken down there through that system, you have to say, what is it about a system that used to take something as perhaps with people who are really bad, you have some notion of retributive justice, what we call that isn't for policy or deterrence, just to say something so terrible, we're just punishing them. even if it affects nothing else. how is it we got from that end point over here that, is supposed to be the worst thing, and are meeting that out to innocent minors. >> okay. when we come back, i want to push back against even that idea, because i'm going to go back to 1996, where we used to

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as 2016 contenders stake out their positions on criminal justice reform, the supreme court gave hope this week to some inmates serving life sentences who were sentenced when they were juveniles. the court had already ruled that mandatory life without parole for juveniles is unconstitutional, but now they decided that that ruling applies retro actively, approximately 1,000 inmates can now appeal for resentencing and release from the imprisonment in which they have spent their entire adult lives. and as preparing for this, i was reminded -- and it goes to what you were saying, okay, maybe we think there are some groups of people who are so bad, we do think for this group there is something internal or inherent. it reminds me in 1996, back when clinton was president, there was

this january 21st, 1996 super predators arrive, right? and it is that story about these kids, 10 and 11 in chicago, who killed an 8-year-old. and literally, the sentence -- the sentence says, right, it wouldn't be a problem if illinois's special 30-bed kiddy prison weren't still under construction. reports it like if only the kiddy prison were ready for them! >> the kiddy prison. >> if only it were ready for them, because that is kind of the obvious way that these super predators ought to be dealt with. >> and let's be honest. super predators are all wrapped up in dog whistle politics. >> i don't think this is dog whistle. it's just like black kids on the south side are going to grow up and kill you. we need a kiddy prison for them. >> we live in a country where we're willing to recycle everything except our children. and here is an opportunity for children, particularly in the states of pennsylvania, louisiana and michigan, which decided not to retroactively apply the court's decision, to have a chance to get patrol at

some point. i'm shocked we're having this conversation. we live in a country where if you go back 50 years, we were doing something quite different. the blacker and browner our prison system has become, the more punitive. and that punitiveness hasn't been relegated to our criminal justice system. it's seeping out into our health care, education system and elsewhere. so we should be asking the question, what does it mean not to these kids necessarily to give them this opportunity. what does it mean to us as a country? like why are we doing this? are we just more punitive than any other country and why? i think that's the question. >> that to me is why it is so powerful for president obama to be pulling back. even if he can't fix it everywhere, that for 20 years later for him to even just make the moral public argument, we don't -- like, full stop. we don't put children in solitary because they are kids. they are not super predators. we're not just waiting for the 30-bed kiddy prison. no, no, no. they're children, constitutionally different. >> he's trying to restore some

of the humanity of the population we have labeled other and different enough so that we don't have to worry about them. we don't do all children like this. there is a teenager in texas, was it, an affluent teenager who gets a lot different treatment in the system and i'm glad you mentioned not only in prisons, but in -- their access to and in mental health facilities, in schools, whether or not they go to the alternative school for a minor infraction. so we have such a practice -- >> police just poisoned an entire city of children with lead, and we know it's likely to lead to a whole set of behavioral practices here which we have criminalized in this country. >> here is my prediction about that entire city of children. that that narrative is going to shift very quickly to why aren't these children's parents taking better care of themselves, giving them better nutrition, or expecting, you know, they came out of that lead poisoning era, so we better build a school for them. >> and you mentioned couch, the

affluenza defendant. you're talking about the difference between stigma and policy. if you want a policy that says we deal with substance abuse that relates to harm, really gravely and seriously, that would be a policy. we don't even do that. ethan couch was a minor, so it fits in the conversation that way. but he used alcohol and then got in a car and crashed and four people were killed. okay? so what is the policy response? i would say legally, right, you're looking at manslaughter, which is a serious charge, where your act caused this death, even if it wasn't your original intention. he didn't get charged in jail with manslaughter. he didn't get any jail time whatsoever. and yet you're telling me stories about people who weren't even charged. >> backpack. >> with a theft, who are spending years in solitary. so the connective tissue here is how does that happen and one is state laws and that conversation. the other way is stigma. somehow because it was alcohol

and his profile and his situation, that triggers all sorts of different societal responses then, whether it was different. i'm sorry, from a policy perspective, if i'm just as a lawyer measuring it out, if you're using crack cocaine, alone -- on the stoop, that might be negative for you and your community, and we should work on that. but the fact that the law right now punishes that more than drinking alcohol and causing someone's death, i would tell you as a lawyer, that's not defensible on policy. so something else is happening. >> you're right. >> something with stigma, something with discrimination. >> and you know, it's always -- this kind of thing happens in public discourse where what we say is, let's go throuw the affluenza teen in jail. and i want to pause and say, no, no, no. our goal is not to become more punitive. if we are going to start asking for a world that sees -- wanting to become less -- i want to say thank you to glen martin always for helping us think through these questions. and also, the reminder that over

the four years we have been talking to each other, how much has happened? who knows. and to carla holloway, and ari melber. ari, i want to make sure you do not miss tomorrow's mhp show, because i'm getting on a plane, if jeh johnson will let me, and i'm going fly to iowa, and ari is going to stay here in new york at this table. we're going to host in two different places together. we're going to take a look in part at ari's exclusive interview with a death row inmate in california who is now fighting for his life. also, when we come back, i have many, many feelings about cam newton. we're going to talk about it. to fight cyber-crime. we use the microsoft cloud to visualize information so we can track down the criminals. when it comes to the cloud, trust and security are paramount. we're building what we learn back into the cloud to make people and organizations safer.

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victory next sunday, he will be the second player in history to clinch a college national championship, the heisman trophy, the mvp award, and the super bowl. which is basically way of saying cam newton has been having a kind of great season. become the sixth african-american quarterback in 50 years to start in the super bowl, the greatest stage in american sports awaits. but that isn't the only reason he's in the spotlight these days. turns out, the quarterback is as polarizing as he is popular, because when cam scores, he dances. and his moves scandalized one of tennessee titans' observers who wrote an open letter to cam newton after giving a close-up view of his game, complaining about, quote, the chest puff, the pelvic thrusts, the arrogant struts and the in your face taunting. she wasn't the only one. former bears' linebacker, brian urlacher, is not a fan. this week, he contrasted cam

with his super bowl rival, denver broncos' quarterback, peyton manning. i don't like it when guys celebrate with dances and stuff. you know who i like, the way he celebrates, is peyton. he kind of gives the guy a handshake and goes back to the sidelines. i think that's a great celebration right there. cam newton, he is not peyton manning. or tom brady. in fact, he is not like most of the quarterbacks embraced by the public for their leadership and intellect on the field. now, let me just clear this up real quick. i do live in north carolina now. but i am no bandwagon-jumping panthers fan. the new orleans saints will forever have my football loving heart. but cam? i like cam, because he is unp l unapologetically himself, whether he is dabbing or handing off the touchdown ball to the kid in the crowd, or describing

his team's strategy with an excellent southern food metaphor. >> i said it then, i'm going to say it now. it's a process. it wasn't going to be -- what did i say? instant grips, quick grips. it's going to be a process like long cooked collard greens, you know what i'm saying? i think those collard greens are brewing now. you can smell it from a mile away. >> when asked why he faces criticism where others don't, cam newton does not mince words. >> i said it since day one. you know, i'm an african-american quarterback that may scare a lot of people, because they -- they haven't seen nothing that they could compare me to. >> the very notion of cam newton being unapologetically black makes him the serena williams of football. serena, cam is met with defiance when he plays, and

especially when he wins. but he just keeps on dancing and charming and leading, and that in itself is a kind of defiance. and what's cam's response to all the haters, if you don't like me dancing in the end zone, then just try to keep me out of it. ♪ extraordinarily painful, i hear you. make sure your doctor hears you too! i hear you because i was there when my dad suffered with diabetic nerve pain. if you have diabetes and burning, shooting pain in your feet or hands, don't suffer in silence! step on up and ask your doctor about diabetic nerve pain. tell 'em cedric sent you.

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later tomorrowed secretary clinton will be joined with gabby giffords who is going to argue that she is the toughest candidate to take on the nra. as you pointed out, she was also endorsed by the "new york

times". the "new york times" saying that she would be the best candidate for the democratic nomination. they praised sanders for some of his policy positions, but they conclude this. let me read you a little snip et. they say, "in the end mr. sanders does not have the breadth of experience or policy ideas that mrs. clinton offers." she's picking up another big endorsement today from 28 african-american ministers. she met with some of them when she was in philadelphia earlier this week. getting that type of support could be critical for getting out african-american voters in states like south carolina, where they make up a large majority of the democratic primary voters there. she's getting some big endorsements on this day where she's trying to close in the deal and, again, this will all come down to turnout. secretary clinton, bernie sanders have their teams on the ground knocking on doors, reminding people to come out and caucus on monday. melissa. >> thank you, kristen welker in ames, iowa. senator bernie sanders is courting voters as he tries to

close that gap with hillary clinton in iowa. he is set to address iowa supporters in just a few minutes. casey hunt joins us now from manchester, iowa. casey, what is sanders' message as we count down to those very first caucuses? >> melissa, good morning. bernie sanders in the final stretch here, and you can feel the energy at many of his event where's, this one here in manchester definitely on the smaller side, but, frankly, most of his events here in iowa in the final stretch are marked by huge and very excited crowds. he and hillary clinton held competing events just a few miles apart from each other in dubuque, iowa, last night. bernie sanders drawing upwards of 1,100 people while hillary clinton only drew about 500. sanders closing message hits on many of these themes we've been hearing from him all the way along talking about fairness. he has backed off a little bit on the attacks on hillary clinton over the course of the past 24 hours.

some of his sharpest critiques came earlier in the week. yet he focused largely on corporatings, talking about wal-mart, the walton family. sanders is really -- you can see it in the candidate himself. you can feel it with the team here on the ground. they're at the point where they're feeling like they have a shot at this, and that is frankly farther along than anyone expected they would be when sanders first started doing this campaign. peeled called him a alone. he is 57, but he looks 91. i asked sanders about all of those comments when i talked to him a day or so ago. he laughed. he said, you know, i said at the time don't underestimate me, and that is still my message to iowans today. don't underestimate me. today he has a full slate of campaign events, and it's going to be capped with a huge rally in iowa city. of course, one of the key areas for him to get students out. there's going to be performances

by the band vampire weekend and others. something of a sendoff for him as we head into monday. melis melissa. >> nothing like iowa. that is our show for today. thanks to you at home for watching. i'm going to see you tomorrow morning at 10:00 a.m. eastern. i'm going to be in iowa as we count down the final hours before the first vote of 2016 are cast. it's all going to happen soon. be sure to watch msnbc's primetime coverage of the final day before the iowa caucuses tomorrow at 8:00 p.m. eastern, but coming up right now, weekend with alex witt.bi alamong the topics, the new developments in the e-mail controversy and the polls that show if there's any heat in cold iowa. i knew i could quit. along with support, chantix (varenicline) is proven to help people quit smoking. chantix reduced my urge to smoke. some people had changes in behavior, thinking or mood, hostility, agitation, depressed mood and suicidal thoughts

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hey, everyone. welcome to "weekends with alex witt." here's what's happening.