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♪ god bless, there is nothing elected officials like worse than being held accountable for their own words and their own actions. this entire crazy year, this circus of attacks, lies, smears, tv and radio and all the nonsense, all that time has passed. this is now our time. ♪ it looks to pretty good morning. it's tuesday, february 23rd. beautiful shot of the skyline of new york city. still dark out, but it's time to wake up! with us we have msnbc contributor and legendary columnist. this is out of control mike barnicle. >> legendary. on the count of three. >> legendary. >> he's a veteran columnist compared to some of the whipper snappers. former communications director for president george w. bush, nicolle wallace.

>> everybody say sarah palin. >> senior political contributor and reporter for "washington post" and mark halperin. >> willie. >> yes, sir. >> you understand that in tuscaloosa, alabama, play a little game called football. >> yeah, they do. >> you remember what bear bryant used to say? i don't need to be number one. i just don't need to. i'm good with number two. >> no. >> i'm good with number three. so what i'm going to do is i'm going to focus on beating the guy who is number two and number three. we're not worried about number one, right? >> we were just talking about this before -- >> right? i mean, that's how we grow up, right? >> before we sat down we were talking about how amazing it is that, instead of ted cruz and marco rubio fixing their sights on donald trump -- >> number one. >> now you have donald trump and

marco rubio fixing their sights on ted cruz. rubio clearly trying to get cruz out of the race so he can get one on one with trump. >> mike barnicle, i can tell you, when i campaigned i was so obsessed with going after the top doing that i didn't even look at the people in the primary or the democrat in the general election. i laser targeted as a nobody on and i savaged him every day on the campaign trail when nobody knew my name. i went after the top dog. it was never about me and my republican primary opponents. you go after who is number one. i sat watching this thing unfold yesterday. ted cruz and marco rubio still killing each other and ignoring the guy that's about to lock this down. and just asked myself, what the hell is going on out there? >> they know they can't get to the guy who is about to lock it down. >> well, then quit. i'm not saying quit. nobody has really tried other than jeb bush. it didn't work, but if you play,

you play to win. you don't play to come in second place. >> do you want to go through the states willie and i were just looking at? >> i do in a second. nicolle, what's going on? would george w. bush worry about lamar alexander? or would he savage john mccain? >> well, first off, i don't think you beat donald trump by savaging him. i think you make him unacceptable in other ways but it is interesting that nobody seems to have aligned the resources and tools of their candidacy behind doing that. even jeb bush, whose message became one of disqualifying trump, never aligned his paid media and his mail against donald trump? >> why? but here's the thing. >> i'm saying, even the one that we think tried it didn't do it holistically. >> the republican establishment has been denying donald trump's existence for nine months, suggesting he was never going to win. now they are all saying, if he is not stopped by march 15th

it's all over. okay? so they're not in fantasyland anymore. even with trump locking this down, and even with the nevada caucus today, you got number two and number three savaging each other and not going after the guy on top. what is going on in their minds? >> well, all i can think of is that they recognize that, if they go after him, he would turn on them and try to eliminate them. i'm not defending it. i agree with you. i'm saying, it seems to me, largely -- rubio also wants to keep his brand clean. he hopes a trump-cruz fight allows him to sneak up the middle. he's not defending himself. his tax returns, for instance, have become an issue with the "wall street journal" and other news organizations. george will.

yet not one is pressing him to release his tax returns. >> he seems to be even more reckless than ever before, saying last night that he was going to punch somebody in the face. >> he's gone from -- joe, i have to disagree. he's gotten more careful. previously he was talking about shooting someone. now he's just talking about punching someone in the face. >> in 2016 what is that, a moderate position? >> the same thing is happening in the media, honestly. they keep shooting at each other instead of trying to look at this frontrunner and understand him. and even ask their own tough questions. they are literally at a loss, just like the other candidates. at a loss. mike barnicle, the list. what you got? >> this is from "real clear politics." a list of states. several will be up for contention next tuesday. georgia. trump up nine. massachusetts, trump up 34. vermont, trump up 15. north carolina, he is up 18. michigan he is up 18. illinois up 13. alabama, he's up 21.

georgia he's up 10. minnesota up 8. oklahoma 7. tennessee, he is up 20. and virginia he is up 6. >> wow! what do you think? >> sam stein. >> trouble for trump, huh? geez. >> do you have any insight as to why ted cruz and marco rubio are not attacking the guy -- >> the guy that you guys put on the entertainment page. >> the simplest explanation is that they look at polling, they see that, in a two-person race, them versus trump, that they do better than trump, and so they decide that they need to make it a two-person race and not go after trump. the problem is, of course, that time is not their friend here. they have all these states coming up. trump could very well build a near insurmountable delegate lead after march 15 and it makes it a moot point to have a two-person race. i want to list a crazy stat. the "washington post" looked at

how much money has been spent by super pacs on attack ads. $215 million spent to date. of that $9 million has been spent going after trump. 4%. and he is the frontrunner. that underscores the point we're saying, which is that he's gone scot-free here. >> i understand trying to get one on one. but as sam points out, we're one week from super tuesday. neither of them is getting out by then. by march 15, a couple weeks after that, trump will have almost as many delegates as he needs. so -- >> the only alternative, willie, is to create some sort of bargain where a kasich and rubio decide, we'll team up. we'll be the ticket. who figures out who is president and vice president. let's go after trump. but that steal leaves cruz. >> cruz is still in the race at that point. >> so what do you do? >> look at the map too. willie, there are two gigantic stop signs for rubio and cruz.

ted cruz and rubio both in their 40s. this will not be their final political campaign if they don't win. look at texas. ted cruz cannot afford to lose texas to donald trump. he just can't. marco rubio, at his age, a guy who is seen by most reaspublica insiders as the future of the party. marco rubio can't lose the state of florida by 20 points to donald trump. he just can't! and so, i mean, if you're going to do something, you better do something before those races come up, right? >> you've got seven days to do it in the case of texas and a little more in florida. >> why have they been so fearful of trump for seven months. never mind seven days. >> nobody believed he was going to win. >> clearly it became quite apparent shortly before christmas that he was not going to go away. >> mark halperin, the republican establishment kept telling themselves that this guy wasn't going to win. >> look, there is a debate on thursday, and i think that you're going to see a smaller

stage, the fewest candidates we've seen on there, and with the exception of ben carson, four guys who all believe they've got a legitimate path to nomination. yesterday you saw a flood of endorsements go to rubio. a lot of the same people who were endorsing him do believe that it requires taking on donald trump. so the question is at what point except perhaps in that debate does he do anything to pull the trigger. he doesn't have enough money to do broad-based advertised against trump. i am just not -- it's not clear what will happen if we wake up next wednesday morning and trump has won almost all or perhaps all of the contests on super tuesday. >> the problem with endorsements in 2016 obviously is they mean absolutely nothing. >> they're like ads. >> they strengthen the outsider. going back to my campaign, nobody endorsed me. nobody. everybody was against me. and i wore it as a badge of honor at every speech. joe, another endorsement, for my opponent. i wonder why. that's where we are in 2016.

it's a lot like '94 and 2010. as far as debate performances go, donald trump delivered what i thought was one of the worst debate performances. he thought he did great. i thought his south carolina debate would finish him, defending planned parenthood, going after george w. bush on 9/11. you name it. it just strengthened him. his numbers actually went up. so i don't see a debate stopping him. and i don't see ads stopping him. it's got to be one of these three remaining candidates, mark, that will step into the fray and go one on one with him and, listen, at the end of the day you either win or you lose. do you lose cowering in the corner or take him on and try to debone him like he would debone you. >> i basically agree with you about the endorsements with one exception. we have caucuses here today. trump will finish i believe way

ahead. does a strong debate performance matter, do endorsements matter. at some point the question is begged, who looks good, who comes out finishing well behind trump in these contests as someone who is strong? rubio yesterday, was having a good news day and cruz a bad news day. he wants to keep some momentum. the better chance he has sometime in march to become the trump alternative. >> does anybody at this table remember who finished second to secretariat at the belmont in 1993? i am serious. that's what we're looking at right now. you look at super tuesday. we're looking at secretariat going down the home stretch of the belmont. who the hell cares who is in second place anymore. >> let's ask nicolle. nicolle, you said yesterday a couple of times that joe was smiling with his eyes. what's the truth here?

does anyone remember who comes in second? >> you can mock it all you want. >> we're not mocking. i am asking you a question. >> rubio is executing the strategy that he detailed. >> nobody is mocking you. >> i'm just saying -- i was talking about yesterday. >> i'm not mocking you. >> rubio's strategy was never to win every race. you may think it's a laughable approach but i think rubio is the most aware of trump's dominance and rubio's strategy was never to dethrone him in the beginning. his strategy was to be standing there, the majority of republicans found him totally unacceptable. so i think rubio obviously the -- coming in fifth in new hampshire wasn't part of anybody's strategy. that was because of a terrible performance in the debate. but i think rubio feels that cruz stumbling now is not totally off of the plan that he had envisioned, and i think that rubio thinks that so far he is in the best position he could be in. i don't know that rubio thought that taking out trump now was

something he could achieve. >> what do you think? >> listen, i like that there's -- there are other people in the race. i think there are people that still want -- >> are there? >> listen, they haven't quit yet. i think rubio and cruz are still making noise. cruz had a terrible day yesterday. cruz is satisfying the desires of the cruz voters. i don't think that rubio satisfies the desires of the rubio voters. we'll see in the next week or so. maybe there isn't a case. >> sam stein. >> rubio's strategy was to win one of the early races. it was called the three, two, one strategy. if that didn't work his advisers floated the idea that nevada -- he spent time in las vegas, that nevada would be a fire wall for him. it doesn't look like it will be. but to answer joe's question it's sham, the horse that finished second to secretary why the. a 3-year-old. i believe it was 1973. i didn't google that or anything.

>> shut up, sam. you so googled that! you so googled that! >> all right. >> i'll just say, i'm sorry. you play to win. >> yes. >> you play to win. and if a guy is about to beat you -- i mean, i know people hate -- hate me telling stories about when i ran. i will tell you, i'm going to tell the story. it was like the primary was like a month away. i was like 30 points down. i hated asking people for money, and i said, i'm either going to do this and ask people for money today or i'm going to lose. and i started walking into people's office and say, if you want to elect a conservative, i need money now. and i'm not leaving your office until you give it to me. and i raised like $70,000, had enough money. like, at some point, you get to a point where you're facing defeat, mike. >> money is not making the difference here. >> that was just a point. if i were in this case -- >> what would be the difference? >> i say i either take donald

trump now, between today and march 1st, or this race is over. >> did anybody ever see muhammad ali swing on a corner man. you're in a ring with someone, you hit the guy you're in the ring with. jeb bush to a certain extent tried and failed. >> he did. >> these two guys, cruz and rubio, appear fearful of donald trump at a time and at a point in our election cycle where trump's greatest strength is his strength. >> you have to take him down. you have to mock him, go after him nonstop. if you lose trying, then you gain a lot of admiration and you live to fight another day. >> i think some of it is they're confounded by how to do so. i was in nevada last week, so i saw the mess -- all the paid advertising. cruz has a brutal ad up with all of that old footage that we've

shown, other people have shown. voters don't care about trump's previous positions on abortion. voters don't care. they've also got a new one up about eminent domain, which i thought would be a big issue in nevada. cruz has tried in his paid media. >> has rubio? >> i don't recall seeing a rubio ad while i was there. but nobody has lined up -- no one has made the central purpose of the message they convey at their rallies with the paid media. they all have a lot of money going into paid media. nobody has made the purpose or the message of their candidacy. george bush, whatever he communicated was coming from the candidate's mouth, in mail, in tamerlan tsarnaevi trump's. >> as a comprehensive messaging attempt anybody h attempt. >> the last point. rubio is actually taking up

trump's attacks on cruz. he is calling him effectively a liar. i don't know if he used that term but he's saying he is a shady guy and look at all the stuff he's done to me. he's trying to torpedo cruz, get him out of the race. there is not enough time to do that. cruz is not getting out tomorrow or next week. he'll be around for a while and they'll split the vote as long as they're both in the race. >> we've been under a lot of scrutiny. when we're wrong, we're wrong. we have a correction. >> i didn't want to embarrass him. >> you knew he was wrong. >> alex? >> this is the off-track betting booth here. sham did finish second in the early -- >> derby. >> everybody knows he finished second in the derby. >> he finished fifth, sham did. >> come on! >> twice a prince. >> i think it was twice a prince. exactly. >> we know people are really watching us now. we want to be very careful with information. >> i'm sorry. other headlines, mika. in other financial news.

asian markets lost momentum overnight. asian shares hit a seven-week high yesterday but then retreated later in the day. right now u.s. dow futures down 24 points this morning as the standoff between the justice department and apple continues. a pew poll showing americans siding with the fbi. according to the data 51% of the americans believe apple should unlock the iphone belonging to one of the san bernardino shooters. microsoft co-founder bill gates is siding with the fbi. >> talk about throwing elbows under the boards when you get a chance. >> we'll talk more about this. >> i am with him but, i mean, what a shot. >> former nsa director michael hayden joins the table later. in kalamazoo, michigan, the man accused of killing six people made his first appearance. jason dalton admitted to the

shootings but told the judge he preferred to remain silent. the mother of 14-year-old victim abigail kopf spoke to reporters last night. as we mentioned yesterday, abigail was pronounced dead and doctors had begun prepping her for organ donation when she suddenly squeezed her mother's hand. >> everybody needs to get that straight. my daughter is not dead. she is alive and she is fighting for her life. i want everybody to understand that. abigail is strong, and she was a vibrant, beautiful young lady and did not deserve this. >> there. we'll pray for her. finally, senator claire mccaskill of missouri has been diagnosed with breast cancer. she made the announcement in a blog post yesterday writing, it's a little scary but my prognosis is good and i expect a full recovery. the 62-year-old said she'd spend three weeks undergoing treatment in st. louis. we wish her, of course, friend of "morning joe" she is, a speedy recovery.

i spoke to her on the phone, joe, and she said she was going to kick cancer's ass and yours next. >> that's our claire. >> she'll be okay. bernie sanders says hillary clinton is starting to sound a lot like if bernie sanders. we're joined by tom ridge who picked candidate in the presidential race. former cia and nsa director michael hayden will be on the set later. a check on the forecast first. we could be watching towards this afternoon, this evening. night-time tornadoes are the most deadliest. areas of concern. starting with the storms over the top of houston. this is all going to slide into louisiana. we get the energy from the day, heating of the sun. this is the area of greatest risk along the northern gulf coast. the i-10 corridor from new orleans towards pensacola, the mobile area, that's in a

moderate risk. 21 million people at risk of severe storms. closer view of the dangerous areas. baton rouge, hattiesburg, mobile and pensacola. dothan and montgomery. 1:00 p.m. today the storms are near baton rouge. 3:00 to 4:00 new orleans. that's when you have your greatest risk of severe weather. when the sun sets biloxi and mobile. by 11:00 p.m. the storms are in southern alabama and in western pennsylvania. there is also a lot of other bad weather. east coast, a lot of rain. we're not going to deal with severe weather on the east coast until tomorrow afternoon. that will new areas of north carolina with a tornado threat. make sure you have your tornado plans in place along the northern gulf coast. new york city, rain and a little bit of wet snow on the way later on this afternoon. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. (patrick 1) what's it like to be the boss of you? (patrick 2) pretty great. (patrick 1) how about a 10% raise?

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hillary clinton will spend every day this week in south carolina ahead of saturday's primary. but bernie sanders traveled to massachusetts yesterday.

he used some of his strongest language to date on issues like wall street donations and trade and also jabbed at hillary clinton for beginning to adopt some of his positions. >> i have to say that i am delighted that secretary clinton month after month after month seems to be adopting more and more of the positions that we have advocated. that's good. and in fact is beginning to use a lot of the language and phraseology that we have used. in fact, i think i saw a tv ad and i thought it was me, but it turned out it was secretary clinton's picture in the ad. but the people of massachusetts and the people of the united states need to know the difference between hastily adopted campaign rhetoric and the real record and the long-held ideas of the

candidates. and what the american people have got to determine is which candidate, whose life work is about standing up to the billionaire class, standing up to wall street, standing up to corporate interests and who does not. >> after his press conference sanders travelled to umass amherst where he drew a crowd of over 8,000 people. there he continued to attack clinton over her super pac money and wall street donations. massachusetts is one of several states sanders needs to do well in on super tuesday where almost 900 pledged delegates at stake. he is trailing in states like georgia, michigan, north carolina and illinois. >> looks like an uphill slog for bernie sanders on tuesday, mike.

>> he'll do well where he was yesterday in massachusetts. she has been around massachusetts, very popular for years. right now he is in a dead heat with her. he has raised a lot of money. odds favor bernie sanders in massachusetts. odds do not favor bernie sanders next tuesday. >> nicolle, what's it looking like, the race? >> well, i think right now we would have to say it looks like hillary clinton will face donald trump. but, you know, i think the democratic race is far more settled than the republican race. >> do you really? >> at least in their minds. yeah, i think the super delegate system makes it very difficult -- i think she has almost all those locked up. even when bernie sanders comes in close they don't have quite the same way of apportioning delegates. on the republican side it's not that close. it's not like rubio and cruz are coming in right behind trump. the way we apportion delegates, if they were, we would have a slightly different delegate map.

they could make the case we'll peel off part of the case. in south carolina i don't think anybody got any delegates than trump. maybe it's more settled than it appears. >> it's interesting that i think bernie sanders has been at least -- hillary clinton has tried to pigeon hole him as a single issue candidate. >> that's brutally unfair. >> it's an issue that he takes on that then has many tiers because that one issue actually affects everybody. >> african-americans, the imbalance in the criminal justice system. >> unfair indictment of his position on race. he has always been about lifting up all corners of society x through economic opportunity. his message has always been targeted at the most underprivileged communities in americas which in many instances are minority communities. i think she successfully labeled him as not having a message on race when his entire purpose of his candidacy was about lifting

up all corners of america. >> actually, what he talks a lot about is a lot of what my father talked about almost nine years ago when he first came on the show. he talked about the immorality of the system being stacked against most people and the tiny percentage of people that are just luxuriating in wealth while others are slowly falling behind. he said it before it was cool to say it. >> he certainly did. and it is certainly this year it's a message that obviously has found a massive audience. but there is no doubt. you look at all the statistics. bernie sanders' message is focused on the disaffected, on people that keep falling further and further behind, and as it is today, it has been for a very long time, in 2016, that is disproportionately black americans. even with the unemployment rate, when we had eddie on before, we

had unemployment rate that came out, and it was like, what, 4.9, and yet it's nearly double in the black community. you start talking about younger black men especially. the numbers are staggeringly high. so bernie sanders' message, it seems to me, skews towards those most disaffected. >> it does. >> military. veterans. >> his messages, themes, which he has been consistently articulating or over four decades, eventually there is a merger of race and class in his message. >> right. >> everyone out there, everyone out there, the rich and the poor and people living in the middle, know that it's a combination of race and class, and too many people in this country living at the edge, living paycheck to paycheck, daring not to dream beyond this weekend. >> yes. exactly. >> why yet, all that is true, he was wiped out among

african-american voters in nevada. where was he yesterday? not in south carolina where the primary is on saturday. he is in massachusetts. he'll struggle in south carolina. the state of georgia, heavy han vote, he is down by 52 points. he asked the question right there, whose life's work has this been. that's an easy answer. it's been bernie sanders. it's not paying off yet. bill gates says tech companies like apple should be forced to cooperate with the feds during terrorism investigations but general michael hayden has reservations. he'll explain when he joins us live just ahead on "morning joe."

still to come this morning, the cruz campaign accused of another dirty trick. marco rubio gets an apology, a top cruz aide gets canned and donald trump asks in ted cruz is, quote, crazy. >> just another day in the republican race for president. wow! we'll be right back. ♪

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advisor and team who understand where you come from. we didn't really have anything, you know. but, we made do. vo: know you can craft an investment plan as strong as your values. al, how you doing. hey, mr. hamilton. vo: know that together you can establish a meaningful legacy. with the guidance and support of your dedicated pnc wealth management team. with us now, the former director of the cia and nsa, retired general michael hayden. >> very good timing. >> when you said, if the next president wants to water-board, what do they have to do? >> they have to bring their own bucket. >> i think you said they have to bring their own damn bucket. explain why you said that.

>> agency people did some things in good faith. they continue to believe that they did it for the benefit of the nation and they did it under guidance from the attorney general and presidents. >> orders. >> in addition to orders, guidance from the attorney general that it was lawful. when you do these sorts of things, a case officer says, are you okay with it, boss? yeah, i think it will work. the president in on this? the attorney general says we're good. >> we're good. >> you told congress, right? yes. it's a social contract from the view of the case officer with the american nation, not -- not with a particular administration. and what we've seen happen with that is that that has about the half-life now of one off-year election cycle. >> what happened to those people that -- >> multiple investigations. i mean, genuine criminal investigations. and a president who came in and, although he did -- give president obama credit. he did try to look forward, not

so much backward, equated what they did with an objective felony and was not at all reluctant to describe it in those ways. and so, why would a future case officer, seeing that this may happen put their kids' college education fund at risk for legal fees by going and doing something after someone has said, don't worry, the president has authorized it. congress is aware. the attorney general says it's okay. and so it -- you -- well, playing to the edge is, you want these officers playing to the edge. you want edges, all right. you do need limits, but you want them playing to the edge. and i fear the cumulative effect of some of the things over the past several years is that they simply can't and won't. bring their own bucket. >> i remember david ignatius saying one time after the president went to langley and delivered a speech that was critical. he said something along the lines of -- it was a -- had the

same effect as a car bomb going off. >> that was david's line. a car bomb in a driveway. >> in a driveway. going off. >> he gave the president -- in the book. gave the president credit for doing this. it's not a warm audience after this has gone on. unfortunately the president called it kind of a -- he used the line, a teachable moment. you have a bunch of hardened case officers. >> who didn't need to learn anything, right? >> look, this is quite different from whether or not it was a good idea or bad idea. two days after the inauguration when the president said we're out of this game i sent a note to the entire work force saying the president has given us exactly what we needed. he has told us where the edge is. it's a different edge, but that's okay. we're going to play now within the new edge. >> can i ask you -- >> i'm sorry. >> go ahead. >> i think it's the same question. >> 15 years now of harsh rhetoric about the tactics and people have branded them as ineffective. one, is that the truth about it and, two, what impact does the

rhetoric from donald trump saying not only am i going to bring back the entergatiinterro tactics but i'm going to do more. >> you have kind of three things you have to prove or talk about, all right. number one, a perfectly honorable position, one with which i sympathize if perhaps i don't always agree is i really wish my nation wasn't doing this. there is no question, nicolle, this is edgy stuff to another human being. that's one. frankly, that could be enough. if you just simply say, no, we don't do that. >> you are saying you respect those who say americans aren't about that. >> i got it. that's honorable. >> my informal summary is we went to the same high school i think. we have the same values. another one is it doesn't matter because it doesn't work. i have a lot of people who work for me who believe they did. they did it out of duty, not enthusiasm.

they got a stack of stuff they seemed to get after the tactics were applied. about 115 total. of the total three, total three, who were water-boarded. there is a case to be made, could you have gotten that information by other means, and, again, trying to be as objective as possible, i say, well, you know, we didn't form a control group of terrorists over here to see how the experiment would work. so what we have here is -- >> by the way, in 2001, 2002, 2003. no democrat or republican on the intel committee was telling the cia, guys, we're uncomfortable with this. why don't you take it easy and let's try other routes. >> we never -- i pull a few threads in the book, joe, that have the attitude quite the opposite. now, nicolle, we get to chapter 3 with a presidential candidate saying i would do water-boarding more because they deserve it. it takes this discussion out of this discussion. none of this was because they deserve this. it's not punishment. this is a passage in the book at

gitmo. these people are human beings. now you have someone saying i'm going to do this because they deserve this? we didn't do it because they deserved it. it wasn't retribution or punishment. it was not backward looking. it was all about the future. does he know something we have to get in order to protect ourselves. >> i talk to people that were pretty involved, and their attitude was not that they deserved it. it was they are the most valuable assets that we have because they have information that can save americans' lives. the last thing we want to do is brutalize them and make them unable to give us information at the end of the day. >> look, at the end of the day you want this person across the table from you -- now, i understand you have coerced it, you have controlled his environment in such a way, but you want this person at the end

of the day across the table from you, with your getting to say, would you like some more hummus? i want to talk more now about what happened in mosul back in -- that's what -- you want to get it into a debriefing formats. one of the cartoons is that you're actually asking him questions when you're applying the pressure in order to move him into a zone of being more compliant. that's not true. >> i want to ask you about apple versus the fbi, although this conversation is fascinating. this is why we had you in because you are trending toward the government. this is all pertaining to the phone of one of the san bernardino shooters. >> yes. >> and it's a little bit more complicated than whether they should just hand it over or not. >> it is. in fact, it acts as a little, theme of the book which is this is hard.

the two sides are not defined by dark and light. tim cook and apple in the general proposition that we should not compel him to build back doors into all of his devices and almost unassailable. i don't know how the government does that. we're going to legislate against technology today. see how that works. >> phone sitting right there. what do you do? >> this is different. this is a specific case. they're being asked to suppress one aspect of the operating system so the government can take a shot at decryption. i agree with tim cook but the burden of proof is on tim to prove to me, the public, if he wants to stop it, he has to prove that this, which i think is very narrow and limited, ultimately leads to that. i am unconvinced. doesn't help that the local just u.s. attorney here. mr. vance, immediately says, i have another roomful of things that i'm going to be right behind the san bernardino guys because that trends the discussion then into the

universal approach rather than this one-off. >> isn't it like torture? how much can you get out of it? what's it worth? >> there are a lot of sub-arguments. how much more can be in there? how much more do you need to know? >> there could be a lot. >> absolutely. mika -- >> talking about vance having phones in new york city. >> but then you're starting to trend in the direction -- tim cook cannot have the position, all right, that i will refuse to give law enforcement any information under any circumstances. that's a loser. an equally losing position is our government demanding that american industry embed in their products a back door. i tell you why. i ran the nsa too besides the cia. when somebody put a back door into anything for any purpose, no matter how noble, my simple response was thank you jesus. >> yeah. >> because we're going to come -- we're going to exploit that back door. there are a lot of talented security services around.

don't think of this as just security and privacy. this is security and security. because you -- you, me, are more secure if it's much more difficult for anyone to break the encryption on our iphones. >> nicolle referenced 15 years we have been at war. i would ask you to rank intelligence estimates. you can't do anything upon the grou -- on the ground without great intelligence. the intelligence received in the summer of 2001 to president george w. bush, the intelligence received prior to the invasion of iraq. and the human intelligence, if you can, today with regard to combatting isis. >> pre9/11, the intelligence was good enough, mike, that we knew something was coming. george tenet's phrase, it's blinking red. we all knew that. we didn't have sufficient insight to see it was coming here. that's a game of expectations. that was nothing they had done

before. we just assumed it was going to be against -- >> you would disagree against trump's assessment that 9/11 was george bush's fault. >> it wasn't his fault. even if we had the data to be more specific, which we didn't, what's the politically acceptable mechanism that george book does? if he imposes the tsa thing on august 15th, what's the attitude of the american -- what are you -- he actually may have caused more harm. so we did not -- let me cut to the chase. we did not give the president actionable intelligence prior to september 11th. all right? that's that one. pre going into iraq, the intelligence with regard to the weapons of mass destruction was incorrect. i know there was a political pull to have a real good story to backstop the rationale for the invasion, but none of that turned into pressure on me or folks like me. we believed that. i tell the story in the book.

i raised my hand -- >> you don't think people in the agency knew that george w. bush and dick cheney and don rumsfeld or whomever in the administration -- i don't know if rumsfeld was in that group -- wanted the intel to back up their existing narrative? >> i don't doubt that. what i am telling you is they didn't need that for the intel to say what the intel said. i take pains to point out in the book, this is our fault. this is a clean swing and a miss. >> so how did we -- i hate even asking this question. >> it's fine. >> because it's always so unfair because of all the great things the agency catches. we, of course, only -- because they don't go put press releases out and say and today we -- that's just not what they do. today we succeeded in this or that way. how did they get the intel so wrong? >> two or three things. number one, prior to this they had low-balled the iraqi nuclear program. after gulf war i and the

inspectors went in, they're much further along. i'm going to get my pitch higher now and get it into the strike zone. that's number one. number two, saddam was living the cover story. he was living the fiction. he needed the neighborhood to believe he still had these, and we took the bait that he indeed still had them. finally, there were errors of trade craft, joe, in terms of how we actually vetted the sources. did we hold them up to the light and did we really have confidence that this sometimes single-threaded line of information was worth doing it. and then finally, the real sin, the real mistake on our part, all right -- let me throw in, every other intelligence service on earth agreed with us. the real mistake on our part was not in our conclusions or our conclusions being wrong. we did not point out to our clients, to our readers, what

our confidence levels were in our conclusions. the conclusions looked like they were on tablets that had just come down from sinai. all the rest of us knew there were relative levels of confidence that we never concluded to our audience. >> isis today. >> very quickly. intel, particularly human intelligence, mike, big ship, small rudder. it takes a long time to build networks into these. we're probably at a crossover point now, but it's not surprising that it's taken a lot of time. one final point. an awful lot of what it is we do now is intensely operational, tactical, focused, present-tense. it's all about targeting. and there has to be other stuff. we have to preserve some part of our energy for not looking at the guy coming over the perimeter wire to kill us right now but looking deep as to with regard to the press conference rate of those kinds of people in three, five or ten years. and if anything is falling short now, it's the long look. >> the book is "playing to the

edge, american intelligence in the age of terror." michael hayden. >> come back when you can. >> thank you. >> fascinating conversation! still to come this morning, former homeland security secretary tom ridge joins the conversation. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. flrb back. you both have a perfect driving record. until one of you clips a food truck. then your rates go through the roof. perfect. for drivers with accident forgiveness, liberty mutual won't raise your rates due to your first accident. liberty mutual insurance.

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bye-bye. good job, fella. look, see, he's smiling.

see, he's having a good time. honestly, i hate to see that. here is a guy throwing punches, nasty as hell, screaming and everything else when we're talking. and he is walking out and we're not allowed -- the guards are very gentle with him. he is walking like with high fives, smiling and laughing. like to punch him in the face, i'll tell you. >> never a dull moment at donald trump rallies. plus, ted cruz and marco rubio keep taking swings at each other instead of trump. the "washington post" chris cillizza, chuck todd and jeff greenfield join us straight ahead. those new glasses?

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i'm watching television tonight. they're all saying, oh, trump is going to win tomorrow. trump is going to win. believe me, assume we're going to tie, okay. if you assume we're going to tie, you're going to go out and vote. or as they'd say in the old-school caucus but forget the word caucus, just go out and vote. okay. i'm going to use the word just vote. i don't want to give you an excuse what the hell is caucus. nobody knows what it means. tomorrow i'm going out to the caucus sites, okay, just in case you -- i'll be in a lot of them. you better be there. if you're not there i'm going to be so angry. frankly, if the people in this room went out and did, we'd win practically with that amount of people. i don't want to turn on the television and say, you know, trump has the biggest crowds, the highest popularity, everybody loves the job he's going to do, but his people were too damn lazy to go out and caucus, all right.

don't do it. don't do it. don't make me have a miserable evening. >> all right. welcome back to "morning joe." still with us, msnbc contributor mike barnicle, former communications director for president george w. bush nicolle wallace, "the huffington post" sam stein. in las vegas, managing editor of bloomberg politics, mark halperin. and political reporter from the "washington post" and msnbc political analyst mark halperin. >> i had actually read from a "new york times" report earlier that trump was more caustic last night than usual about pufrping people in the face -- punching people in the face and other statements that he made. you -- you pushed back a bit on that and said it was pretty much business as usual. what's the answer? >> i have been to a lot of trump rallies. i didn't think he more caustic than usual. if anything, i thought he was a little more reflective. it was a very big crowd.

he spoke for a shorter period than he sometimes does. >> you do understand, though, when you say he was a bit more reflective and one of his lines was that he wanted to punch somebody in the face that that's a standard. >> you've been to too many trump rallies. >> maybe you've been to too many trump rallies. >> i'm laying them all side by side and making a comparison. i will say that, you know, anecdotally. i was there for a long time, talked to a lot of people. some trump rallies have people who are there for the show, who are not necessarily planning to vote for him. this was a very supportive group. they like his message. a lot of them were very aware that they need to go out and vote for him today if they really want to help him and not just get a free t-shirt. >> let's also talk about another event you were at and that was ted cruz's press conference yesterday. it seems to me if jesus died for our sins and rick tyler died for

the sins of many in the cruz campaign. he was thrown overboard for retweeting something which he then took down, which he then apologized for, and yet ted cruz threw him under the bus, a guy that has been respected and a guy that was the heart of this campaign for a very long time. it seemed like -- seemed like a sacrificial lamb at the very least. >> yeah. i mean look, senator cruz said nice things about rick. we all know rick and respect how hard he worked. he did make a mistake. i don't think he would deny that. he hasn't denied it. >> oh, sure. >> i think it's also the case, joe, as you are suggesting, had senator cruz not been dealing now with several weeks of accusations that his campaign doesn't play fair i don't think there is any doubt he would have stood by rick and said he can stay he made a mistake. i think many of the accusations about lying are really just kind of run-of-the-mill hard-ball political activities but ted cruz needs to do what he thinks is right. he also needed to try to right

what was a bad story line for his campaign that they do things that other people just don't do. >> i tell you what, nicolle, i love a lot of things about politics. i love when john kasich gets a guy and cries. i love seeing jeb bush show grace under pressure when he's getting out of the race. i hate when a politician throws a staff member under the bus and fires him to get a little bit of heat off him for the day when this entire campaign -- >> that was true colors. >> -- lied in realtime on twitter, as the iowa caucuses were closing, they photo-shopped ads. they did so many other things that were -- were far worse. i'm not saying what rick did wasn't bad, but so many things were more calculated, more thought out -- >> and more damaging. i don't know rick tyler but i admire him very much. i have been the staffer thrown under the bus.

i have worked for a winning presidential campaigns and losing presidential campaigns. i made as many mistakes on both, but i have never, ever been fired by the person for whom i was working. and there is no decision like these ones that doesn't come from the top. so the fact that ted cruz -- he sets the tone for his campaign. he screams liar, liar, liar. he is known i think around the world as a nasty, dirty player. he is admierred for it. so to then fire one of his front-line soldiers i think is -- it is such an enlightening -- >> true colors! >> i was going to say and i tweeted it this morning at 5:00. rick's firing, a guy i don't know -- rick's firing says a lot more about the campaign -- >> cruz than about rick. >> than it says about rick. >> his job -- there are lots of jobs on campaigns you don't get to see or understand. i can barely read a poll let alone understand how they take one, but the spokesperson's job,

so much of the job happens in plain sight. and what i saw, i thought he was the best thing about the cruz campaign. i thought he put a reasonable, rational, intelligent, intellectual face on the campaign. that he got thrown under the bus was a stunning move, a stunning cycle. >> wonder where he ends up. the rubio campaign responded calling him a really good spokesman who had the unenviable task of working for a candidate willing to do or say anything to get elected. wonder where he ends up. >> bob costa. bad day yesterday for ted cruz. i don't know that throwing somebody under the bus respected aide, made it any better. >> well, i think part of senator cruz' calculation is he needs to get ben carson supporters, at least some of them, back on his side, because that carson campaign, even though it's sputtering, continues to be a weight. the carson supporters have deep skepticism about cruz because of what unfolded in iowa.

until that dynamic changes and he can consolidate on the right, it's a problem. >> ted cruz's problem is that he's calculating. >> he's too calculating. >> he said he made a calculation. i don't think again this helps him. >> the fight between ted cruz and marco rubio has turned into who can beat trump. a strategy memo from the cruz camp laid it out saying trump cannot be beaten from the political left and accusing rubio of supporting amnesty. he says his strategy is to lose the first four primary states. lose every state on tuesday, lose every state on march 5th and march 8th and finally win in florida where he is polling in third. last night a fight broke out from an apparent change from cruz's approach to the more than 11 million undocumented immigrants in america. here is what the texas senator said last month followed by his comments last night. >> will you have a force that

goes door to door, rounds them up, and deports them? >> we have an enforcement force. it's called border patrol and immigrations and customs enforcement. i.c.e. is not. border patrol is at the border. i.c.e. is in the interior. >> trump has been specific. there are 11 to 12 million undocumented immigrants. he says he'll have a force grab them and deport them. >> we have law enforcement authorities that enforce our laws. your question you keep saying, will they knock an over door in america. no, i don't intend to send jack booths to knock on your door. that's not how we enforce the law for any crime. >> the biggest difference, bill -- >> mr. trump would look for them to get them out. would you do that if you were president? >> look, bill, of course you would. that's what i.c.e. exists for. we have law enforcement that looks for people who are

violating the laws that app rehends them and deports them. >> tommy o'malley from ireland is over here. he overstays his visa. he has a couple of kids. he settles in long island. you send the feds to his house and put him on a plane back to ireland? >> you better believe it. >> of course the fights went on from there. mark halperin, i will -- earlier this morning ron fournier said when he was growing up when you played king of the hill everybody ran up the hill and they tried to throw the king off the hill. they didn't punch out everybody at the bottom of the hill. that appears to be exactly what is happening here. i actually said it yesterday morning. >> yeah, i agree with you. >> i said it at 10:00 or 11:00 in the morning, and i said it

last night. i don't understand why these guys are in second and third place clawing each other's eyes out when there is somebody ahead in every state, that they're not fighting. they're killing each other. they're only making donald trump stronger and they're only weakening themselves. this makes no sense. >> it doesn't make sense, both in terms of the clock ticking and the potential that trump could win so many contests and nobody could stop him. it also, i think, doesn't make sense because if you're going to take on hillary clinton, if she is the democratic nominee, you have to prove not just to republican voters but to the electorate at large that you're tough enough to neighboring tak. the fact that they're shying away from the fight shows lack of strength. the minute any of these guys go after trump full force he'll come back at them full force and i'm not sure any of them are ready for the implications of that. in part because they don't have his skills and they don't have

the money to defend themselves on television. >> sam stein. >> i think we're missing the forest for the trees here a little bit. in 2012 mitt romney running in the primary advocated a policy of self-deportation. that got him into a very big amount of general election trouble for which the rnc then did an autopsy saying they needed to relate more to immigrant communities. and now the republican party is moving well beyond self-deportation as a policy to forced deportation as a policy. and i think that there is being -- a lot of damage is being done at this juncture to the republican party's image if this is where they're going. and i know the primary draws parties to their respective bases but this is precisely what the people who did the autopsy report were hoping to avoid, and it's happening in realtime. >> not only is it happening in realtime. you know, we were critical -- i certainly was critical of what mitt romney said in iowa at a

debate, very early on, about -- in answer to a question on immigration. this is so much more extreme, this talk from donald trump and ted cruz and just about everybody else, than what mitt romney said in 2012. here are the realities. it's numbers. listen, we can talk all we want to talk. at the end of the day it's about numbers. if a republican only gets 25%, 29% of the hispanic vote. >> they're going to lose. >> they lose under any circumstances. there is no circumstance by which you can say a republican wins unless they get 35%, 36%, 40% of the vote. >> bush got 44%. >> they need 35% of the hispanic vote. this is doing nothing but driving them all away. >> so, given that, what are cruz and rubio going to do to get to carry that flag into the fall, because they're afraid to take on the guy who is ahead of them. so robert costa, what i want to

know from you, from your coverage of this, which, in terms of demographics, where do cruz and/or rubio go in the next seven days to get that second spot, to clear the field, to get that second spot? what is their audience? >> their audience in the next few days, mike, and as they look toward a general election, is not so much to expand the outreach to the hispanic community but to try to revive what they see as the old reagan coalition, whether it's true or not, there is a theory within many of these republican campaigns that, if white working-class voters frustrated by their economic standing, by illegal immigration, can be roused again, then republicans have a chance in november. it's not the diversity strategy that many in the party elite have been recommending. >> robert, didn't working-class voters come out in big numbers for mitt romney. >> significant numbers. >> i heard after the election, nicolle, that if ronald reagan had gotten the same demographic

breakdown as mitt romney -- or if mitt romney had gotten ronald reagan's demographic breakdown in 2012 he would have lost. >> right. >> the world has changed. the country has changed. >> and the maddening thing is that we keep relearning -- we lose, we say we've learned something, and then we lose again. so we keep relearning but not learning at all. so bush had 44%. i think mccain had in the 20s. or maybe in the 30s with latinos. >> mitt was 27%. maybe. >> i think the reality of it is -- it's sort of like the denial about taking on trump. the reality of it is, why not take a position where you're going to solve it. the real exasperation is with the dysfunction of washington. there is lane open -- what trump is selling is, you know, i am going to blow it up and get stuff done. i'm going to get deals done.

you don't have to beat a guy saying i'm going to get deals done by being more extreme. >> what's so ironic is that, what donald trump has taught politicians, or what he should have taught politicians is what bill clinton said. better to be strong and wrong, okay. if donald trump can come out and defend planned parenthood -- >> and win! >> -- and win! in south carolina. >> beat cruz with evangelicals for saying that. >> attack a president with 87% approval rating. and win military veterans. then a strong republican who is not scared of his or her shadow can come out and say, listen, they're here. we're not going to deport 12 million people. we're going to give them legal status. they won't be citizens, but we'll give them legal status where they will pay taxes. >> pay taxes, come out of the shadows. improve security. improve our budgets. >> we'll stop living the lie. they'll contribute to our tax base instead of just draining and giving corporations cheap

labor. if somebody did that strongly they would be rewarded. instead, mark halperin, everybody is afraid of their own shadow and the party is going down the drains because of it. i wonder, mark, if all of this doesn't prove what you have been saying for a very long time and what i heard you saying yesterday on tv, so we can both say it here, that for a year and a half we both have been commenting about the fact that everybody was going on and on about how this was the greatest republican field in years, and actually what we have found is, what you were saying a year and a half ago, that just because there were a lot of people in the field didn't mean it was a strong field. in fact, you said it was one of the weaker fields that you have ever seen. here we are with a democrat that voted for hillary clinton that is supporting planned parenthood, that's going -- is on his way to winning the nomination and there is not a republican out there that people can get behind to stop him. doesn't this just prove that this field in fact was as weak as you said it was a year and a half ago?

>> i think it's right. and they're weak not just in terms of their ability to stop somebody like trump but also weak in their unwillingness and political courage it taken on talk radio, the conservatives on twitter. not for the sake of necessarily pandering to the left but for the sake of doing what they think is right and to try to win a general election. i think there is no doubt that whoever the republican nominee is they'll try to move more to the center on immigration and if they're president they have to deal with the reality of where we are. there is strong grass roots opposition to citizenship or legal status. it's the reality for a lot of people in congress. they say it has to be done. part of trump's strength is he is not afraid of conservative media. doesn't mean you have to be a liberal but he is on some issues. >> robert costa, let me ask you what you're hearing from the cruz and rubio campaigns because we have been asking the question

all morning. when you have a guy in first place, ahead in every poll, looks like he'll win easily on supertuesday in nevada. what are the campaigns saying to justify attacking the guys in second or third place and not going after the frontrunner who looks like he could lock this thing down in three weeks? >> they both want a two-man race. to get there, they think they have to go through each other rather than going through trump. i think mark nailed it. there is a sense that they don't want to have the fight. they don't want to engage because they either don't have the political skills or they don't have the money. what you're going to see is rubio try to creep up onto a two-man race by coalescing establishment support. time is running out for him and others in the field. >> certainly is. >> robert costa, thank you. governor john kasich clarifies off the cuff comments.

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a new poll just out this morning in ohio shows governor john kasich behind donald trump in his home state's primary. the quinnipiac poll shows trump ahead of kasich. ted cruz at 21%. marco rubio at 13% and ben carson at 5%. the ohio primary is on march 13th. >> mark halperin you have a texas poll. >> the university of texas poll showing ted cruz actually ahead by a pretty sizable margin, 37% over donald trump at 29%. marco rubio at 15%. on one hand you could say that's his home state. of course he should win it. if ted cruz is able to win the texas primary it's not a winner take all but he would get a lot of del naegatesdelegates. the symbolism would be strong. it could be one of the ways ted cruz might be able to argue he is the guy who continues to have

at least a chance to stop donald trump. 37% cruz, 29% for trump in cruz's home state. anchors the contest a week from today on the primary. >> the two guys we keep talking about who are clawing and killing each other instead of attacking donald trump have to win their home states. cruz looks to be in a position to do that. right now marco rubio is in third place. >> all right. >> certainly -- talk about a litmus test to stay in the race, they have to at least win their home states. >> governor kasich caused a bit of a stir on the campaign trail yesterday after these comments to a crowd in fairfax, virginia. listen to these. about how he won his first election a long time ago into the state legislature. >> how did i get elected? i didn't have anybody for me. we just got an army of people who -- and many women who left their kitchens to go out and go door to door and to put yard signs up for me all the way back

when, you know, things were different. now you call homes and everybody is out working. at that time, early days, it was an army of women that helped me get elected to the state senate. >> there is actually nothing wrong with that comment but somebody in the audience had something to say about it and it became a big story. take a look. >> first off, i want to say your comment earlier about the women came out of the kitchen to support you. i'll come to support you but i won't be coming out of the kitchen. >> i got you. i got you. >> all right. >> hillary clinton responded, tweeting, quote, it's 2016 -- >> that's what he was saying! >> that's the thing that's so amazing about this, jeff greenfield. this is such a stupid non-controversy. he said things have changed. now you call home and nobody is there. >> everyone is at work. >> this is a serious threat to those of us who believe in the first amendment. how can you make an issue out of that? he says, yeah, when i started it was a different world.

women left their kitchens and now they're out working. now people say aha! it's beyond -- you scratch your head and say i think he'll just go ahead until may. >> desperate stretch for a story. moderator of meet t"meet th pres press", chuck todd. chris cillizza and jeff greenfield. chuck todd, you know it is a busy political time when the conversations just absolutely -- it doesn't stop. we go to break and everybody is talking about ted cruz and the firing and john kasich thing. there are a thousand things going on, but the bottom line that none of us can understand that we keep scratching our heads, why are the guys in second and third place killing each other instead of going after trump with time running out? >> i think time is totally running out. you guys just went through a

butch of scenarios with the polls. look, marco rubio right now has got to be the biggest donald trump fan in texas, you know. that to me is his best shot at getting the one-on-one hoping cruz loses texas on super tuesday. then he gets marginalized on that day. then maybe for two weeks there is a rallying to his side and you get closer to the one-on-one for rubio. but for trump, i am with you. yesterday they spent all day beating each other up talking about why the other is better than the other to go after trump. i continue. the top -- nobody is -- the top candidate being attacked is marco rubio. the top candidate getting attack ads after rubio is ted cruz. after that i think it was jeb bush. nobody has gone after trump. that's why he is sitting here with 35% as a winning number. they're going after each other. >> is there a trump/rubio deal? >> i don't know. >> mika is asking --

>> that's the one thing that hasn't happened yet. >> mika is asking that question, chuck, because people in florida who are very well connected in florida who have been telling me for months now that they think there is a trump/rubio deal. they said watch. they will not attack each other. they'll go after everybody else. and boy, yesterday, just doubled down on that theory. >> think about it. >> they were both savaging ted cruz together. >> they both need cruz out of the way, and they both think, if you want to play the game theory out, right, trump people believe that cruz's outsider message some of the libertarian message and the liberals he appeals to are easy marks for trump to win over. obviously he believes on the evangelical front he has a better shot at being the second choice should cruz be out of the way. you can make an argument they

could both benefit from cruz being out. at some point rubio has to show he's tough enough to take on donald trump. >> unless he's going to be vice president. >> under what scenario is ted cruz a bigger threat to donald trump than marco rubio? marco rubio has got the endorsements. he's going to have the -- if he has time to get the money, he's going to have all the money. i mean, marco rubio is a much more plausible choice to win this thing than ted cruz right now. >> ted cruz' entire strategy is based on the idea that, thanks to the modern tools, data analytics, micro-targeting, they can find the magical missing millions of strong conservative, tea party, social conservatives, in places like pennsylvania and upstate new york. i think that's their entire strategy for the nomination of the general election is based on this. we have been hearing about the missing millions since the days of robert taft and on the left

since george mcgovern. they've not shown up. i think that's the strategy. the problem for cruz, among other things, he has the problems a former texas senator had, even his best friends can't stand him. a whole lot of republicans look at trump and say it's a little odd to imagine but compared to cruz. and that goes back to what you guys were talking about in the earlier segment. for different reasons nobody wants to strike at the king. and my feeling is the only conceivable way to stop trump is for those republicans who regard him with genuine fear, not that he would lose, that he'd win -- >> it's not that everybody is not striking at the king. that's one part of it. it's who the king is choosing not to strike at. there is one. and it's marco rubio. he started off this entire election campaign, donald trump, insulting hispanic americans. so i -- i'm sorry. i -- someone tell me that they don't smell a deal. am i crazy?

>> i don't know whether there is a deal or not. >> doesn't it smell like one. >> but chris cillizza, you have continually pointed out for the past two or three weeks that basically this cake is baked. >> yeah. >> well, look, mike, we can -- and chuck is right that there are scenarios by which cruz and rubio wind up as the nominee. chuck and i have talked on this actually not on camera. we occasionally have conversations. it does happen every once in a while. the reality situation is you can come up with scenarios by which donald trump isn't the nominee. there are ways that you can get there, right. cruz drops out. >> you're doing mental gymnastics at this point now. >> that's exactly right, mika. if any other candidate, rubio, cruz, carson -- if anybody who is left in the race was in the position right now, polling-wise, delegate-wise, that donald trump was, we would -- there would be a kyron running underneath the screen that says donald trump the all

but certain presidential nominee. all but certain nominees do lose on occasion but the reality is, even if you look at the delegate math here, the only option is to keep him just barely below the threshold to be the nominee. >> we have a lot of people around the table here. i'm going to start on brady bunch, lower left-hand side to mark halperin. mark, tell me what -- in 15 seconds, what's the best scenario to stop trump? >> there are three. best is the field wins. kasich and rubio team up as a ticket and third you steal it from him at the convention. >> chuck. >> they get cruz out after super tuesday and it's rubio. that's the only plausible -- you have to beat trump during the primaries. you can't steal it from him at the convention. >> jeff greenfield, i was going to say, the time to steal it at the convention has passed with jeb bush out of the race.

that depended on a lot of people getting a lot of delegates. you either stop him now or you don't stop him. >> i can't think of the last time a frontrunner was stopped after accume wlaulating the lea. the only conceivable way is the republicans who think truly donald trump would be a disaster to say it in a way that's unmistakable and apocalyptic, we can't have this man in the white house. >> how do you stop donald trump if you're the republicans? >> i don't know. i don't know. >> that's why we have sam stein. he knows political theory as well as he knows who won the belmont in '73. go ahead. >> you could make the case a two-person race benefits rubio, obviously. there is the counter point that trump himself stated which is that you can't just assume that every single person who supports ted cruz will go to marco rubio's camp. you can't. >> mike, that's been the flawed reasoning all along. everybody has been saying, well,

you know, 75% of republicans are against donald trump. well, that's great until you say, well, 80% are against ted cruz and 85% against marco rubio. it's stupid math. >> it's not going to happen. they're not going to stop trump for a simple reason. one of the reasons why most of the media has missed this thing for the past six or seven months, part of his appeal is people think he's fearless and he has two people now left to combat him, cruz and rubio, who are both filled with fear. >> okay. >> i think he can't be beat because he hasn't lost yet. >> because he hasn't lost yet. what do you think is going on? >> there is only one way to stop him. if there is anybody left that can talk to ted cruz and john kasich, you get them out of the field and have a one on one, marco rubio against donald trump. >> you have to beat him. you have to start winning. >> at that point, that is a 50-50 proposition and that is a fight all the way to cleveland. unless that happens, before

super tuesday, this is over. >> literally. >> so i don't know -- yes. i don't know if there is somebody who can get ted cruz and john kasich out of the race, but unless you do and it's marco rubio versus donald trump, game over by super tuesday. yeah, who wanted to jump in? >> joe, i was going to say you're exactly right. the timing is the critical piece, which is it literally has to happen like today, because all of this sense while rubio he's going to get momentum and money. you said earlier in the segment, can he get enough money in enough time. that's the issue. if you look at the 12 states that vote on march 1st, trump is ahead in ten or 11 of them, right? that's because texas is where ted cruz is from. so it's -- the question is like, if you can't beat him in a grass-roots, organizing state where you're supposed to have to go out and meet everybody, how are you going to beat them when the campaign expands to all these states where his personality, his name i.d., his

leads matter more. >> let's be blunt about it, mika. we said donald trump would be a big force in the field. let's be honest and blunt this morning, okay, that's why people tune into our show. ted cruz's campaign is over. i tell you when it ended. you said it. off camera. i'll say it on camera. it ended in south carolina when donald trump beat ted cruz among evangelicals after coming out in support of planned parenthood. ted cruz's campaign is over. mark it down. he is not going to win the nomination. he may win texas. it's over. and what happened yesterday was an ugly, terrible exclamation point to the end of ted cruz's campaign. i'm not being hateful any more than i was sucking up to donald trump when i said before anybody else that the guy was going to be a player here. other than mark halperin and mika said it as well. it's over, chuck todd. and the question is, you may not believe that.

it's over for ted cruz. who can get ted cruz -- who can get ted cruz out of the race -- >> nobody. >> -- and to a lesser agree, who can get a guy who i respect tremendously and since jeb is out of the race, who i was going to vote for i would vote for if kasich will still around because i love that guy. who can get kasich and cruz out of the race. so it's a one-on-one between marco and donald. >> i can tell you this, actually. i know of some conversations that have taken place not against specific -- not with specific candidates but people have done the delegate math, and if you assume that kasich is the key here. if you assume rubio can get 80% of jeb bush's vote in south carolina and 80% of kasich's vote, you don't need cruz out of the way yet, but it does mean rubio better win some states on super tuesday. if you want to do this -- >> but chuck -- >> kasich is probably the guy

you could talk out of it. >> chuck, i know you had to stay that. marco will not win any states on super tuesday. >> no. not right now. not under these -- >> not with kasich. >> that's right. >> i'm sorry. since we were -- we had a delay. chuck, finish up. >> no, no, no. i agree. i'm just telling you that it's kasich. kasich is more of a linchpin for rubio right now than cruz. >> yes. >> it is more important for rubio to have a shot at this one-on-one it's more important for kasich to get out now than cruz, to be honest. cruz actually still eats in a little bit to trump. >> jeff greenfield and chris cillizza, thank you. a string of prominent republicans and elected officials want john kasich out of the 2016 race. but former pennsylvania governor tom ridge doesn't agree. he'll tell us why he is throwing his support behind the ohio governor. stay with us. that's ahead. >> what do you make of the suggestion from the rubio campaign that you don't have a

path to nomination and that you should clear the way for him? >> i think it's funny! i think it's funny. i think it's ridiculous. >> for a year you ignored me. now all of a sudden people are beginning to hear me, and i'm going to continue to talk. so how do you like that? to thrive in an ever-changing environment, companies must adapt. but one thing should remain constant - a financial relationship with someone that understands and cares about your business. pnc corporate and institutional banking offers strategies tailored to your company's needs. know that our dedicated teams of local experts offer insight to help you achieve your business objectives. see how working with pnc can help your company grow at pnc.com/ideas ♪

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♪ joining us now from washington, former secretary of homeland security and former republican governor of pennsylvania, tom ridge. yesterday he endorsed ohio governor john kasich for president and joined the campaign as national co-chair. i don't know if you were able to hear our previous conversation, doing the math, sir. >> i did not. i did not. >> so the question is, i admire john kasich. he is the reason i actually ran for office in the first place. does he have a shot at winning? or is he just helping donald trump by splitting up the mainstream republican vote? >> well, first of all, i think we got everything in perspective as of march 1st, only 5% of the delegates will have been selected. i think john understands right now it's a matter of attrition.

we're down. we started with 17 candidates, and now we're down to five. i think john has every bit as good a chance as anybody else to prevail in the long run. and that's what he's committed to. he is not going anywhere. >> mike barnicle, go ahead. >> governor, what do you think is happening to your party during this primary season? why is donald trump's appeal so sustaining over such a long period of time and the other candidates seem to be diminished in his presence? what's going on through your eyes in your party? >> well, first of all, i think one of the real challenges is that donald has very successfully tapped into the angst that a lot of people have with regard to the direction of the country, dysfunctional institutions of government, failed foreign policy. but as you look across the board, rarely does he get more than 30%, 35% of vote. at the end of the day you see that the majority of people do

not aggregate around donald trump. and that gives, i think, john kasich the best opportunity to prevail. >> let me ask you, governor. seems to me that we went straight to process instead of asking you the most important question. why are you endorsing john kasich? >> well, i thank you for that question. i prefer proven leadership to the promise of leadership. i prefer action to rhetoric. and he's got one extraordinary record, you know. the man took over a state that had a huge deficit, and through a combination of restricted spending and tax cuts has a surplus, working with his cabinet and the legislature created a very successful job creation program, hundreds of thousands of jobs. so i like leaders who have proven records rather than those who want to create a record. excuse me. >> sam stein. >> sort of answer my question, governor. you stood out yesterday as one of the few prominent republican officials who did not endorse

marco rubio. and i'm wondering, is it just that the senator doesn't have a proven record that made you hesitate from jumping on that band wagon? or was there something more about marco's record? record? >> i think senator rubio is a very talented young man, but you can well imagine that i'm kind of partial to governors. i think it's one thing to be part of a very important group called the senate of the united states and cast a vote, you're one of 100. i think it says even more to be a governor where you ultimately have that political responsibility and accountability to succeed. so i think, frankly, record trumps rhetoric. while i think it's very important and marco rubio and senator cruz have contributed as senators, compared to what governors have to do in order to achieve particularly in the area of being politically accountable for outcomes, there's no doubt in my mind that being a governor is far, far better preparation

for the ultimate responsibility as president of the united states. >> two great lines, proof trumps promise and proof trumps rhetoric. we like john kasich a lot. >> i notice polls suggest that trump has a marginal lead in ohio, but i think on election day ohio ans know who cut their taxes, nobody else on the ballot did, ohio ans know who is responsible for job growth and ohio ans know that he inherited a mess and created a surplus. on election day john will prepare in ohio and i believe he he will doing with elsewhere as well. >> tom ridge, thank you for being with us on this morning. whose line is it anyway, bernie sanders accuses hillary clinton of copying his message. as we go to break take a look at this tough new radio ad in south carolina for bernie sanders featuring director and activist

spike lee. >> wake up. wake up, south carolina. this is your dude spike lee and i know that you know the system is rigged. for too long we've given our votes to corporate puppets. sold the okey-doke. bernie takes into money for cooperation, nada, which means he is not on the take. when bernie gets in the white house he will do the right thing. how can we be sure? bernie was at the march on washington with dr. king. he was arrested in chicago for protesting segregation and public schools. he fought for wealth and education equality throughout his whole career. no flipping, no flopping.

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las vegas. we try to figure out what ted cruz and marco rubio have to gain by going after each other instead of the guy in first place. it's republican caucus day in nevada and "morning joe" continues in just a moment. the world a president has to grapple with. sometimes you can't even imagine. that's the job. and she's the one who's proven she can get it done. ...securing a massive reduction in nuclear weapons... ...standing up against the abuse of women... ...protecting social security... ...expanding benefits for the national guard... ...and winning health care for 8 million children... the presidency is the toughest job in the world and she's the one who'll make a real difference for you. i'm hillary clinton and i approved this message.

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actions. this entire crazy year, this circus of attacks and lies and smears and tv and radio and all the none sense, all that time has passed. this is now our time. with us on set we have msnbc contributor and legendary columnist -- i mean, this is out of control. >> legendary. on the count of three, one, two, three. ladies and gentlemen dear. >> legendary. >> he is a veteran columnist compared to some of the whipper snappers out there. former communications director for george w. bush nicolle wallace. >> everybody say sarah palin. >> also in washington white house correspondent for the huffing ton sam stein. >> kid. >> and in las vegas managing editor of bloomberg politics, mark halperin. >> there he is. willie, you understand that in

tuscaloosa, alabama, play a little game called football. >> they do. >> do you remember what bare bryant always tuesday used to say? i don't need to be number one. i just don't need to. i'm good with number two. >> no. >> i'm good with number three. so what i'm going to do is i'm going to focus on beating the guy who is number two and number three, we are not worried about number one. right? >> we were just talking about before -- >> right? that's how we grow up, right? >> before we sat down we were talking about how amazing it is that instead of ted cruz and marco rubio fixing their sights on donald trump. >> the number one. >> now you have donald trump and marco rubio fixing their sights on ted cruz. marco rubio clearly trying to get cruz out of the race so we can get one-on-one with trump. >> mike barnicle, i can tell you when i campaigned i was so obsessed with going after the top dog that i didn't even look at the people in the primary or the democrat in the general election.

i laser targeted as a nobody on bill clinton and i staff ajd him every day on the campaign trail when nobody knew my name. i went after the top dog. it was never about me and my republican primary opponents. you go after who is number one. i sat watching this thing unfold yesterday. ted cruz and marco rubio still killing each other and ignoring the guy that's about to lock this down and just asked myself, what the hell is going on out there? >> you know, they can't get to the guy who is about to lock this down. >> well, then quit. i'm not saying quit. nobody is really trying other than jeb bush. and, yeah, it didn't work, but if you play, you blah i to win. you don't play to come in second place. >> do you want to go through the states that i was just looking at, willie and i were just looking at? >> i do in a second. >> that's incredible. that list is incredible. >> nicolle, what's going on? would george w. bush worry about lamar alexander or would he savage john mccain? >> well, first of all, i don't think you beat donald trump by

savaging him, i think you make him unacceptable in other ways. it is interesting that nobody seems to have aligned all the resources and tools of their candidacy behind doing that. even jeb bush whose message became one of disqualifying trump never aligned his paid media and his mail against donald trump. >> here is the thing -- >> even the one that we think tried it didn't do it holistically. >> mark halperin, the republican establishment has been denying donald trump's existence for nine months, suggesting he was never going to win. now they are all saying if he's not stopped by march 15th it's all over. okay? so they're not in fantasy hand anymore. even with trump locking this down and even with the nevada caucus today you've got number two and number three savaging each other and not going after the guy on the top. what is going on in their minds?

well, all i can think of is that they recognize that if they go after him he would turn on them and might eliminate them. they are all trying to be the last person standing. i'm not defending it, i agree with you, i'm just saying it seems to me largely based on the fact -- in rubio's case he also wants to keep his brand clean and he hopes that a cruz trump fight allows him to sneak in the middle. i was at the trump rally last night, i have never seen a guy more carefree. he's picking whatever targets he wants but he is not defending himself. his tax returns have become an issue with the "wall street journal" and other news organizations and yet not one of them is pressing him to release his tax returns. >> mark, he seems to be even more reckless than ever before saying last night that he was going to punch somebody in the face. >> yeah. >> this is not a guy -- >> he has gone from -- joe, i would have to disagree. he has gotten more careful. previously he was talking about shooting someone, now he is just talking about punching someone in the face. >> that's a dial back.

>> in 2016 what is that, a moderate position? >> you know, the same thing is happening in the media, honestly. they keep shooting at each other instead of, you know, trying to look at this front runner and understand him. even ask their own tough questions. they are literally at a loss, just like the other candidates. at a loss. mike barnicle, the list, what you got? >> this is from real clear politics, a list of states, several of them will be, you know, up for contention next tuesday. georgia, trump up 9, massachusetts trump up 34, vermont trump up 15, north carolina he's up 18, michigan he's up 18, illinois he's up 13, alabama he's up 21, georgia he's up 10, minnesota he's up 8, oklahoma 78, tennessee he's up 20 and virginia he's up 6. >> wow. >> sam stein -- >> that's trouble for trump, huh? geez. >> do you have any insight as to why ted cruz and marco rubio are not attacking the guy -- >> the guy that you guys put on

the entertainment page? >> yeah, i mean, the simplest explanation is that they look at polling, they see that in a two-person race them versus trump that they do better than trump and so they decide that they need to make it a two-person race and not go after trump. now, the problem is of course that time is not their friend here, they have alls these states coming up and trump could very well build an insurmountable delegate lead after march 15th or so and it makes it a moot point to have a two-person race. one crazy stat that underscores all of this, the washington post looked at how much money has been spent by super pacs to date on attack ads, about $215 million has been spent to date, 215. of that about $9 million has been spent going after trump, that's about 4% and he is the front runner. so that underscores the point that he has got scot-free. >> i understand trying to get one-on-one on theory.

theoretically you get a better shot if cruz or rubio gets the other guy out of the race, but as sam points outs we are one week from super tuesday. by march 15th a couple weeks after that trump is going to have almost as many delegates as he needs. >> so the only alternative, willie, is to create some sort of bargain where a case is sick and rubio decide we'll team up. we will be the ticket. who figures out who is president, who is vice president, we'll leave that later, let's go after trump and that still leaves cruz. >> and cruz still in the race at that point. >> what do you do? >> and look at the map, too. willie, there are two gigantic stop signs for both rubio and cruz. ted cruz and rubio both in their 40s, this is not going to be their final political campaign if they don't win. look at texas. ted cruz can't afford to lose texas to donald trump. he just can't. marco rubio his age a guy who is seen by most republican insiders as the future of the party, marco rubio can't lose the state of florida by 20 points to

donald trump. he just can't. so, i mean, if you're going to do something you better do something before those races come up, right? >> you have seven days to do it in the case of texas and a little more in florida. it's -- >> why have they been so fearful of trump now for seven months? never mind seven days. >> nobody believed he was going to win. >> but clearly it became quite apparent shortly before christmas that he wasn't going to go away, he was not going to go away. >> mark halperin, the republican establishment kept telling themselves that this guy wasn't going to win. >> well, look, there is a debate on thursday and i can that, you know, you're going to see a smaller stage, the fewest candidates we have seen on there with the exception of ben carson four guys who all believe that they've got a legitimate path to nomination. what's interesting is yesterday you saw a flood of endorsements go to rubio, a lot of the same people who are endorsing him do believe that it requires taking on donald trump and so the question is at what point except perhaps in that debate does he do anything to pull the trigger?

he doesn't have enough money to do broad based advertising against trump. i'm just -- it's not clear what will happen if we wake up next wednesday morning and trump has won almost all or perhaps all of the contests on super tuesday. >> you know, the problem with endorsements in 2016 obviously is they mean absolutely nothing. >> it's like ads. >> in fact, they strengthen the outsider. i mean, again, going back to my campaign, you know, nobody endorsed me. nobody. everybody was against me. and i wore it as a badge of honor at every speech. oh, another endorsement for my opponent. i wonder why. that's where we are in 2016. a lot like '94, a lot like 2010. and as far as debate performances go, donald trump delivered what i thought was one of the worst debate performances. he thought he did great. i thought his south carolina debate would finish him, defending planned parenthood, going after george w. bush on 9/11. you name it. it just strengthened him.

his numbers actually went up. so i don't see a debate stopping him and i don't see ads stopping him. it's got to be one of these three remaining candidates, mark, that will step into the fray and go, one-on-one, with him and, listen, at the end of the day, you either win or you lose. do you lose cowering in the corner afraid that donald trump is going to be mean to you or do you take him on and try to dee bone him like he would try to debone you? >> i basically agree with you about the endorsements with one exception. we have caucuses here today, trump is going to finish i believe way ahead. does second matter, do endorsements matter? at some point if trump does what we expect and racks up a lot of wins the question is going to be who looks good, who conrail's out finishing well behind trump in these finishes as strong. rubio was having a good news day, cruz was having a bad news

day. the more rubio can keep the impression that he's got some momentum even though he's way behind trump the better chance he has sometime in march to become the trump alternative. >> let me ask does anybody at this table remember who finished second to secretary reit at the belmont in 1963? and i'm serious. that's what we're looking at now. you look at super tuesday we're looking at secretary reit going down the home stretch of the belmont. who the hell cares who is in second place anymore? >> let's ask nicolle. you said yesterday a couple times that joe was smiling with his eyes. what's the truth here? >> you can mock it all you want but rubio's -- >> i'm serious. >> rubio is executing the strategy that he detailed. >> don't put me as mocking you. excuse me. >> i was talking about the laughing yesterday. >> i'm not mocking you. you were mocking him. >> rubio's strategy was never to win any race. you may think it was a laughable

approach but i think rubio was the most aware of trump's dominance and rubio's strategy was never to dethrown him in the beginning. rubio's strategy was to be standing there the majority of republicans found him totally unacceptable. so i think rubio obviously coming in fifth in new hampshire wasn't part of anybody's strategy, that was because of a terrible performance in the debate, but i think rubio feels that cruz stumbling now is not totally off of the plan that he had envisioned and i think that rubio thinks that so far he is in the best position he could be in. i don't know that rubio thought that taking out trump now was something he could achieve. >> but what do you think? >> listen, i like that there's -- there are other people in the race, i think there are people that still want -- >> are there? >> well, listen, they haven't quit yet. i think that rubio and cruz are still -- i think cruz had a terrible day yesterday, i don't know what case cruz makes. i think that trump is satisfying the desires of the cruz voters.

i don't know that trump satisfies the desires of all the rubio voters. we'll see in the next week or so. >> i know people hate me telling stories about when i ran. i will tell you i'm going to tell the story. it was like the primary was like a month away, i was like 30 points down, i hated asking people for money and i said, i'm either going to do this and ask people for money today or i'm going to lose. and i started walking into people's office and say, if you want to elect a conservative i need money now. and i'm not leaving your office until you give it to me. and i raised like $70,000 and had enough money -- like at some point you get to a point where you're facing defeat, mike. >> but money is not making the difference here. go ahead, mike. >> that was just a point. >> that would be the difference. >> i would say i'd either take donald trump down now, between today and march the 1st or this race is over. >> did anyone ever see mohammed

ali turn and swing on a corner man? you are in the ring with someone, you hit the guy you are in the ring with. no one has even -- jeb bush to a certain extent tried and failed, but these two guys, cruz and rubio, appear fearful of donald trump at a time and at a point in our election cycle where trump's greatest strength is his strength. >> yeah. >> yeah. >> and you have to take him down. you've got to mock him. >> you have to try. >> you have to go after him nonstop. you have to try. >> if you lose trying, then you gain a lot of admiration and you live to fight another day. >> i think some of it is they are confounded by how to do so. i was in nevada last week so i saw all the paid advertising and cruz has a brutal ad up with all that old footage that we've shown, other people have shown. voters don't care about trump's previous positions on abortion. voters don't care -- they've also got a new one up about

eminent domain which i thought would be a big issue in nevada. you know, cruz has tried in his paid media. i think -- >> has rubio? >> i don't recall seeing a rubio ad while i was there. but nobody has lined up -- no one has made the central purpose of the message they convey at their rallies with the paid media, they all have a lot of money going into paid media. nobody has made the purpose of the message of their candidacy -- george bush whatever he communicated it was coming from the candidate's mouth, it was in mail, it was in advertising. to your point nobody has done that anti-trump wise. >> it has to be one-on-one eyeball to eyeball on the stage. >> i mean as a comprehensive messaging attempt nobody has tried to match what they say to their voters with what they air on tv in battle ground states. >> willie. >> the last point. rubio is taking up trump's attacks on cruz, he is calling him effectively a liar, i don't know if he has used that term but he has said he is a shady guy. so he's going after cruz, trying

to for peed dough cruz, get him out of the race. there is not enough time to do that. they're going to split that vote as long as they are both in the race. still ahead on "morning joe," despite the video of big crowds for bernie sanders the rest of the map is an upkill climb for the vermont senator, but why his campaign in some ways may have already won. we'll explain that ahead. plus addiction in america spills over from the streets to the campaign trail. a new documentary looks at the secret lives of addicts as the heroin epidemic deepens. now let's go to bill karins, though, tracking some severe weather. bill. >> two dangerous days, the first one today will be the worst of it with the severe whether possibly strong tornadoes late today and when they happen in the evening they typically tend to be the deep les ones. we have two storms, the first one up through virginia heading through washington, d.c. this is rain, will be a little snow outside of new york city later today. that's not severe. the severe storms are heading out of texas at this time, houston you get the all clear

now. this will arrive in louisiana this afternoon and this evening towards new orleans. here is the map that shows the risk area, 20 million people are in the risk, yellow slight risk, orange enhanced and red moderate risk of severe weather. this is a serious situation along i-10. that's because of the potential for strong tornadoes, not just a random tornado. we may get one or two strong ones that could be on the ground for a long time. as i mentioned before those are the ones that are typically the most destructive and deadly. that's baton rouge, mobile, pensacola right across i-10 and just south of jackson and meridian. the new orleans area, looks like around 5:00 is when the peak of the storms will be near you, also heading through southern mississippi 5:00 to 7:00 p.m., then the sun sets, we will have a hard time knowing if the tornadoes are on the ground or not still. this is 9:00 p.m. near mobile and heading through alabama as we head towards midnight, pensacola, panama city included. by the time we get.

>> wednesday the tornado threat is lower, isolated tornadoes in eastern north carolina but a wind damage threat with a lot of these storms up i-95 all the way from d.c. south wards down into areas of florida. once again if you are on the northern gulf coast today it's one of those days to make sure you have your tornado plan, make sure you're with your family and everyone is safe this afternoon and evening as those dangerous storms move through. more "morning joe." looking at washington, d.c. rainy gloomy day for you, tomorrow will be windy and rainy, a little different from today. we will be right back. woosh, it. i swear i saw it swallow seven people. seven. i just wish one of those people could have been mrs. johnson. [dog bark] trust me, we're dealing with a higher intelligence here. ♪ the all-new audi q7 is here. ♪

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hillary clinton will spend every day this week in south carolina ahead of saturday's primary, but bernie sanders traveled to massachusetts yesterday. he used some of his strongest language to date on issues like wall street donations and trade

and also jabd at hillary clinton for beginning to adopt some of his positions. >> i have to say that i am delighted that secretary clinton month after month after month seems to be adopting more and more of the positions that we have advocated. that's good. and, in fact, is beginning to use a lot of the language and phraseology that we have used. in fact, i think i saw a tv ad, i thought it was me, but it turns out it was secretary clinton's picture in the ad. but the people of massachusetts and the people of the united states need to know the difference between hastily adopted campaign rhetoric and the real record and the long held ideas of the candidates. >> and what the american people have got to determine is which

candidate, whose life work is about standing up to the billionaire class, standing up to wall street, standing up to corporate interests and who does not. >> after his press conference sanders traveled to umass amherst where he drew a crowd of over 8,000 people. there he continued to attack clinton over her super pac money and wall street donations. massachusetts is one of several states sanders will have to do well in on super tuesday when almost 900 pledged delegates are at stake. new polling shows him tied with clinton there, but trailing her wide margins in states like georgia, michigan, north carolina and illinois. >> it looks like an uphill slog for bernie sanders. >> definitely. >> he will do well where he was yesterday in massachusetts. i mean, she has been massachusetts, very popular for years and right now he is in a

dead heat with her, he has raised a lot of money. odds favor bernie sanders in massachusetts, odds do not favor bernie sanders next tuesday. >> nicolle, what's it looking like, the race? >> well, i think right now we would have to say it looks like hillary clinton will face donald trump, but, you know, i think the democratic race is far more settled than the republican case. >> do you really? >> at least in their minds. yeah, i mean, i think the super delegate system makes it very difficult -- i think she has almost all those locked up. even when bernie sanders comes in close, they don't have quite the same way of apportioning delegates. the problem in the republican side is it isn't that close so even if -- it's not like rubio and cruz are coming right behind trump the way we apportion delegates, if they were we would have a slightly different delegate map moving foortd and they could be making the case that, well, we will peel off parts of the state. in south carolina i don't think anybody got any delegates except trump. maybe it's more settled than it appears. >> coming up on "morning joe"

the court order against apple splits the tech community. this morning mark zuckerberg says encryption is an important tool while bill gates sides with the fbi. still to come with election season under way is america going backwards when it comes to voting rights? that's ahead when we continue. your path to retirement may not always be clear. but at t. rowe price, we can help guide your retirement savings. so wherever your retirement journey takes you, we can help you reach your goals.

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everything they can to stop black people, latinos, poor people, young people, people with disabilities from voting. it's a blast from the jim crow past. i thought we had won the battle back in the 1960s. to see it rear its ugly head is such a great disappointment. it's one of the barriers that i intend to knock down. >> that was hillary clinton speaking about voting rights in houston, texas, this weekend. joining us now on the set the president of the brennan center for justice at new york university school of law and former director of speech writing for president bill clinton of, michael waldman. he is the authors of the new book "the fight to vote." mike barnicle and sam stein still with us as well. >> michael, always great to have you on. tell us why did you write this

book now? why is it important right now for people to read this? >> well, this is an election where these issues of who can vote and how are at the front of a lot of people's minds. there are new voting laws in place in 16 states for the first time, the supreme court knocked down the heart of the voting rights act, you hear candidates like we just did talk being it. a lot of public concern not just about voting rights but about citizens u righted, the role of money. i wanted to know, among other things, why not. >> so why now? >> it turns out that this fight over who can vote, has been with us since the very beginning, it's been at the heart of politics and it's always been rowdy and partisan and intense from the time of the founding until now. so this is really another moment just like in the past where we're fighting over kind of who can have their voice heard and we see it in in election. >> mike. >> so you were referring to the shelby decision, 5-4 sets back

the voting rights acts of 1965. why do we pick one state, let that one state be north carolina to spell out exactly what the shelby decision resulted in. >> well, the shelby decision as you say was this 5-4 decision. it said that now states could pass these new voting laws without worrying about whether they were going to be approved beforehand by the justice department and in north carolina they cut back on early voting, but especially on the days where african-american churches voted on the sunday before the election. they put in a new voter i.d. law and repealed public financing for judicial races. we've seen laws like this all over the country and a lot of people are fighting back and this is among other things one of the reasons the supreme court nomination will be such a big issue in the election. >> a lot of people think that a driver's license when you go to vote is okay. they have no objection to that. do you have an objection to

that? >> i am actually for voter i.d., i think it makes sense to show who you are. what a lot of people don't realize is about 11% of eligible voters don't have a driver's license. so you need to make it so that people have i.d. that they really have. actually i think you can do this in a way that doesn't make it harder for anyone to vote, but if you look back at the turn of the century, you look back at the whole sweep of history a lot of times these voting laws, they look fine on their face but they're very partisan and mischief vows in their intend a lot of these new laws are that way, too. >> sam stein, jump? >> the voter i.d issue is complicated because a lot of states that are requiring voter i.d are not supplementing that requirement by having multiple locations open with multiple hours open for people to go and access and get a voter i.d so you are disenfranchising a lot of people through these laws. what kind of infrastructure do states need to set up if they're

going to have a voter i.d requirement to at least allow those 11% of the population to pull fill that requirement? >> you need to make sure that the offices that get out the id's stay open. there are exciting new developments. if we had automatic voter registration in this country like the rest of the democratic world does you would add tens of millions of people to the rolls and you would curb any potential for fraud and you've now seen states like california and oregon and other places moving towards that. so i do actually think that when you look at the whole sweep we're at race k of moving backwards but the general trend throughout the two centuries has been to expand the right to vote, to push back on forces that have made it less meaningful for people to have their voices heard. when you loo look at the founders and the constitutional convention they were debating on the right to vote whether only white men with property should be allowed and that should be in the constitution. you hear a lot of the rhetoric about that in the fight over citizens united today.

it's a fight that's been going on from the beginning. >> and the fight to vote is on book shelves today. michael waldman, congratulations. >> thank you. still ahead, bill gates take a side in apple's fight with the federal government, but not the one you might expect at all. business before the bell is next on "morning joe." ( melodic, calm music ) we said goodbye to the day. and to the city. and drifted off into the twilight. and when we woke, we found that the whole world had reinvented itself. sail with princess cruises, the best cruise line in europe. limited 7-day mediterranean fares from $999. call your travel consultant or visit princess.com. princess cruises. come back new.

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37 past the hour. let's check in with cnbc's sara eisen live at the new york stock exchange. what are you looking at? >> good morning, mika. this debate between apple and the government continues to rage. a few developments that i wanted to share with you including this notable backer of the government's position or the fbi position, bill gates. the founder of the microsoft. in an interview with the financial times dismissing the idea that letting the fbi access the apple iphone would set a precedent, he says, quote, they are not asking for some general thing, it is asking for a particular case. gates in that interview compared it to bank records saying it's

like the bank tied a ribbon around a disc drive and said don't make me cut this ribbon because you will make me cut it many times. it's also interesting because he breaks with the silicon valley position which has been very supportive of apple, including microsoft, the company he founded, no longer officially involved in microsoft but microsoft through a group of technology companies came out sympathetically with apple, so did mark zuckerberg which i know you discussed, so has the ceos of twitter and facebook, but there have been many very prominent people in the intelligence community backing apple on this as well. one of them is michael haden who i know you guys spoke to, but he is uniquely qualified, former nsa, former cia director coming out and saying universal back doors are dangerous and it's not just about privacy but he raises this issue that it is about american security. so this is very much in the public debate right now, in the court of public opinion, and i also wanted to just mention in referencing that there was a

pugh research study done, found that 51% of americans say that they should require apple to unlock the iphone, 38% side with the apple in this case saying that it would set a dangerous precedent, 11% say they didn't care. so far just a slight majority in favor of the security force, the investigation by the fbi into these terrorists. >> all right. cnbc's sara eisen, thank you very much. this morning uber is standing by its screening process after michigan officials charged one of its drivers with giving rides while carrying out a deadly shooting spree on saturday. prosecutors say jason dalten admitted to the shootings, he appeared in court yesterday to answer to six counts of murder, but told the judge he preferred to remain silent. nbc's blake mccoy reports. >> reporter: accused kalamazoo shooter jason dalton appearing

in court via closed circuit tv. >> i would prefer just to remain silent. >> reporter: the 45-year-old father of two has been charged with 16 felonies including 6 counts of murder. >> there is videotapes of these incidences, he walked up on these people and he shot them. >> reporter: a motive for the seemingly random killings remains unclear, but detectives say dalton has admitted to being involved. eight people involved in three separate locations over nearly five hours. it began at an apartment complex around 6:00 p.m. saturday where tianna kruters a mother of two was shot multiple times. she managed to identify ball ton as the shooter and a expected to survive. rich smith and his son tyler were skilled at a car dealership. four hours later. rich's wife posting on facebook saying my heart is shuttered, crushed into tiny pieces. in a parking lot four women called including 63-year-old

mary lou nigh. dalton, a man with no criminal record had a high uber rating before saturday. >> we're working to support the law enforcement investigation, we've provided them with gps logs. >> several passengers have come forward with receipts showing dalton gave them rides even after the shooting began. one man says he took an uber with his family because he heard about the shootings and thought it would be safer than walking. >> i jokingly said to the driver, you are not the shooter, are you? >> he shook his head or said no. >> for an entire community the randomness of the attacks still difficult to comprehend. >> all right. that was blake mccoy reporting. yesterday we told you about the 14-year-old girl who held on even after she had been declared dead. abigail koff was pronounced dead, doctors had begun prepping her for or gunman donation when she squeezed her mother's hand. her mother spoke last night. here is what she had to say.

>> everybody needs to get that straight. my daughter is not dead. she is alive and she is fighting for her life. i want everybody to understand that. abigail is strong and she was a vibrant, beautiful yund lady and did not deserve this. >> the suspect's family also released a statement sending their condolences to the victims and pledged to cooperate with the investigation. still ahead it's been called the worst epidemic in u.s. history with more than 2 million americans in need of treatment. front line is taking a closer look at the country's heroin and opiate crisis. keep it right here on noej. . there were people who listened along the way. people who gave me options. kept me on track. and through it all, my retirement never got left behind. so today, i'm prepared for anything we may want tomorrow to be. every someday needs a plan.

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do me a favor. do me a favor. stop moving. stop moving. okay. good. because when you're moving i don't know what you're doing and i get -- okay. when you stop moving i gotcha, you're getting well. not a big deal. i'm not going to jam you up. we have to find out who you are. okay. cool. the girl on the ground is getting well, she's shooting heroin. >> stop crying, babe. we don't care. >> these officers are making fewer arrests, they are more likely to refer addicts they counter to social services. >> where is the syringe because i want to be safe? >> so you've become a social worker. >> we are social workers. >> you are social workers. >> yeah. but, yes -- >> listening to you now would say, gee, you're taking an awfully gentle approach. >> we could not incarcerate these people or arrest our way out of the problem. >> that was a new look at the

front line documentary chasing heroin which explores the heroin and prescription opioid epidemic in america. joining us to talk about the new documentary award winning producer marcella garveria. this looks incredibly depressing but we need to know just how prevalent this is. i don't think people really understand. what did you learn in working on this? >> well, it's incredible really what the numbers show. i mean, this is an epidemic which means that 500,000 people have died in 15 years. this is not unlike the aids epidemic of the '80s. the fact is that the country hasn't really woken up to the solutions. so i wanted to make a film that really sort of explored that. what are we going to do with this? and i ended up in seattle following three addicts and looking at different programs and what they're doing for them. >> and, mike, this is also a new england problem. we certainly saw that in new

hampshire with all the presidential candidates talking about it, but you talked about a documentary you saw about cape cod. >> my gosh. >> it's a national problem. did you find in the course of sending the time in seattle that access to the drugs, to opioids, heroin and the relative cheapness of both when you steal the prescription drugs a lot of the times, but that is one of the principle factors in this mushrooming epidemic? >> you know, we explore the origins of it. when you start to understand what happened, it's -- this country got primed after the pill epidemic of the '90s and what ended up happening is that not everybody that took pills switched over to heroin, of course that wasn't the case, but a certain percentage, an important percentage of people that do get on painkillers actually make the switch. so you end up kind of realizing that, you know, that's why so many white young people and people, you know, the

demographics have completely changed in this epidemic, which is why politicians are starting to pay attention. >> you talk about the demographics. let's take a look at another clip. this one has attorney general eric holder talking about that. take a look. >> we need much more in the way of treatment -- >> it's heartening for me to see how this nation is reacting to the heroin problem. we are now seeing around the country where we are coming up with public health responses to it in dealing with the underlying problems that cause that addiction in the first place. >> not to be too glib but isn't that because a lot of white kids are doing heroin? >> i mean, i think that's certainly a factor. >> richard pryor said about cocaine that it's an epidemic now because white people are doing it. >> when things seem into the majority community the nation pays a greater amount of attention than when it is confined to minority communities. so, yeah, there is an element of

truth, there is an element of truth to that. >> talking about heroin now, but it seems to me you were talking about prescription pills in the '90s and even into the early 2000s. isn't that really -- wasn't that the gateway drug to this to cause the explosion again? because, you know, i heard way too many stories about parents whose children overdosed on prescription medication, many of them die. >> yeah. as the deputy drugs are for obama said that pills are basically heroin prep school. so, you know, i think a lot of us take painkillers, go home with a bottle of 60 pills or whatever it may be, but, you know, about 23% of people get hooked. so this is, you know, serious stuff and you should consider it when you -- when you go on those painkillers. is your pain really 10 or 3, you know, think about it. >> right. my daughter recently got her

wisdom teeth pulled and came home with a big jar of pills. >> that's right. >> i was like i'll take that. you let me know desperately if you need it, otherwise why? why? front line's chasing heroin airs tonight at 9:00 on pbs. marcella, thank you so much for coming on. great work. when we return the latest reason why donald trump has branded ted cruz as, quote, crazy. we will be right back. ♪jake reese, "day to feel alive"♪ ♪jake reese, "day to feel alive"♪

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ted cruz is, quote, crazy after seeing the senator's latest television ad targeting nevada republicans. here is a part of the ad. >> 85% of nevada is owned and regulated by the federal government and donald trump wants to keep big government in charge. that's ridiculous. you the people of nevada not washington bureaucrats should be in charge of your own land. if you trust me with your vote i will fight day and night to return full control of nevada's lands to its rightful owners. its citizens. >> trump responded with a tweet, just saw the phoney ad by cruz, totally false, more dirty contribution. he got caught in so many lies. is this man crazy? he added more at his rally. >> this guy cruz lies more than any human being i have ever dealt with. unbelievable. and he holds up the bible and he lies.

the evangelicals were supposed to go with cruz. they were supposed to go with cruz. but do you know what, honestly, i won the evangelicals by a lot. you saw that, right? so the evangelicals didn't vote for him. do you know why? because they don't like liars. they are really smart people. they don't want to vote for a liar. >> this guy is sick. there's something wrong with this guy. >> mike barnicle. >> ted cruz i just don't get ted cruz. i really don't get him. i don't -- i just don't get him. i choose not to say anything more because i don't want to liable a person. >> sam stein, can you scratch the surface of what mike barnicle just said and give us a little bit deeper? >> how can i build on legendary columnist mike barnicle's take there? there's no way to build on that. it's legendary. >> we have talked about an awful lot today as we do every day. ted cruz's back is against the

wall, is it not, with -- after losing the evangelicals in south carolina? >> yeah, i think so. you know, we talked a little bit about how difficult a time both he and rubio have in these upcoming states. you know, texas, he's got -- he's got to take texas for any reasonable plausible rationale to continue going on. there is a poll out today that makes it look possible, but, you know, i think in retrospect his strategy of staying as close as possible to trump for as long as possible ended up looking a bit foolish. he didn't recognize that, you know, to ultimately win this thing he would have to go after the king. >> i think it was chuck todd who said -- or somebody on this show added up all the money that's been spent in super pac attack ads. >> that was me. that was me. >> i can't remember who it was. >> it was somebody. >> it was a critical point. i just can't remember. i know sam was the guy that got

everything wrong about the belmont in '73. >> preakness. >> anyway, somebody said that only 4% of the attack ads -- sam, you were here. what did they say when you heard that? >> it was a brilliant point, i can't remember who it was, but they said that 4% of all super pac money in attack ads has been spent against donald trump. that's $215 million total spent, only $9 million against donald trump. incredible. >> and as ron forneya wrote earlier this morning, when he was growing up playing king of the hill, the idea was to to go and knock the king off the hill, not to beat everybody up at the bottom of the hill but that's what they're doing. >> the problem is when you have a hill where everyone at the bottom are frayedy cats then they don't play king of the hill the right way. >> i do think it is a question of political courage. do they have the courage to go and try to knock the front runner's head out and if you

don't -- >> and also speak the truth to the policies and ideas and where the party is. >> and if you don't then you are not strong enough to be president of the united states. >> if people like donald trump for speaking his mind, why don't you speak your mind. >> about donald trump. >> no, but about donald trump, about the issues, about whether or not the retirement age needs to be raised, about immigration. speak your mind. >> they don't know how. >> forget your people, the ones that you end up firing anyway. forget them. make it come from the heart, the gut and the head and speak your mind. >> so let's talk about what we learned today. mike, what did you learn? >> i learned once again listening is over. >> you really think it's over? >> yeah. >> sam stein, what did you learn. >> >> the last segment you did on heroin and the front line documentary, it's not so much what i learned, it's what i hope. you know, new hampshire was the epicenter of a crisis, but it wasn't the only place that a crisis was taking place. with the presidential campaigns

all in new hampshire, we had a really strong several months where we were actually having a sincere conversation about that epidemic. i hope that we don't let that fall away. i hope that we continue talking about it. >> and, mika, what i learned is mike barnicle in his own words may owe you a truck. >> mike. >> well, if it's over, i've got to get -- if it's over for me. >> legendary mike barnicle loses that bet. steve kornacki picks up coverage from las vegas right now. the kind of thing legendary. one, two, three. >> legendary. >> forest green. and good morning, i'm steve kornacki. it's 6:00 a.m. here on the las vegas strip, not too far from the university of nevada, las vegas, republican caucus day here in the silver state. lots of coverage on that. lots to talk about on those caucuses but it is also 9:00 a.m. right now