because i have used head and shoulders for 20 years. used regularly, it removes up to 100% of flakes keeping you protected live flake free for life the night of the jackals. let's play "hardball." i'm chris matthews. the day started with donald trump getting blasted by republican hawks. the neocons west after him, too. the front-runner came under other constant attack from the remaining contenders in the race. the dynamic was clear from the outset donald trump versus everyone else. ted cruz one of the jackals, marco rubio the other one. john kasich went after his

immigration stance. and his past business dealings. actually, john kasich stayed apart from this ridiculousness. trump university, they went after that, too. as has happened in the past, the fight quickly broke down into name calling. let's watch. >> i have a policy question for you, sir. >> let's see if he answers it. >> don't worry about it, marco. don't worry about it. don't worry about it, little marco, i will. >> let's hear about it, big donald. >> don't worry about it, little marco. >> big donald and little marco. that was the tune of the night. on immigration, trump was asked to release a conversation he had with the board of "the new york times." cruz said he was lying, because he always says that without foundation. here he is. >> you could resolve this issue very quickly by simply releasing

"the new york times" tape. because listen, maybe it's right. that you didn't tell them you're misleading the american people. >> tapes were not in the subject. >> you didn't tell them that, the tapes will prove you're innocent. if in fact you went to manhattan and said, i'm lying to the american people, then the voters have a right to know. >> no, you're the lie. you're the lying guy up here. you're the one. you're the one. let me just tell you -- let me just tell you, excuse me, i've given my answer, lying ted. >> neither looked good tonight. that was joe mccarthy at his worse in the form of ted cruz tonight. the night began with rubio, justifying his schoolyard tactics against trump and trump trying to set the record straight on one of those attacks. >> donald trump has basically mocked everybody with personal attacks. he's done it to people sitting on the stage today. he's done so about people who are disabled. if there's anyone who deserved to be attacked that way is donald trump for the way he's treated people in the campaign.

let's be honest, the media has given these personal attacks that donald trump has made an incredible amount of coverage. let's talk about the issues that matter to this country. i'm ready to do that right here, right here tonight. >> i happened to call him a lightweight. i said that. i would like to take that back. he's not that much of a lightweight. i have to say this, i have to say this, he hit my hands. nobody has ever hit my hands of the i've never heard of this. look at those hands. are they small hands? and he referred to my hands, if they're small, something else must be small. i guarantee you, there's no problem. >> unbelievable. for the next two hours we'll be breaking down tonight's debate such as it was and where the republican race is heading. a stop trump coalition is forming. but the question remains, who is the alternative candidate? did anybody step up to that role tonight? i'm joined by michael steele,

and "washington post" robert costa. you can't beat someone with no one. i saw a lot of no one up there on the platform tonight. jackals, not lions. >> again, i think that -- i don't know what the cruz-rubio combo thing is. and how they think that's going to work. but there was no ground game in my view with that approach. tonight was not about doing what they did last week. tonight was about differentiation, let's talk presidential. the only one in my view who came anywhere near that and surpassed it was john kasich. who at every turn brought the conversation back. and even when prodded and probed said i will not attack. he wanted to have the conversation. i think that will resonate with a lot of people, especially when we move into states like ohio and michigan. >> everyone else was discarding, and he said i'm going to go for the card. >> right before michigan.

you're coming right before ohio. this race is swinging up. coming back to the rust belt. kasich is swinging for the moon. he's thinking, if i can present myself with a different kind of candidate and rubio's taking all these pot shots, maybe i have a chance. outside chance, but a chance. >> two jackals tonight. by jackals, attacking the rear end basically of the other guy. is there 25% that will go for the positive? >> if they're turned off by rubio. rubio is key at winning the suburban voters. if they turn to kasich, that's his chance. rubio is trying to make himself the headline. the headline now is the one that has combat with trump. >> i'm sorry, mike, but i've seen the tactic in other campaigns. just keep agitating the other guy. react, react, react. he kept interrupting him just to bug him. i'm not sure it worked. >> i was watching both twitter

feeds, seeing how people were reacting, and it wasn't going over very well. to the point even frank lund said his focus group, which everybody is deemed the rubio focus group, was not buying it. 30% or less. i think rubio's hit a wall. and i think -- >> he was doing the university, right? one thing i learned in politics, when you go after somebody's personal finances or business, they always know more than you know. even when they're caught, they can always come back. you can always trump them. >> trump's comfortable talking about his business. trump actually likes talking about his private sector work. the thing for rubio, i was at the senate today talking to his colleagues, they think rubio's whole argument is to be the serious one and be the hawk. when he's taking the hits at trump it -- >> the neocon thing at the end. trump and rubio clashed early on trump's record. look at that face.

>> he has a career of convincing americans something they're not in exchange for his money. he's trying to do the same in exchange for the country. that's a fact. he talks about the great businesses he built. he inherited over $100 million. >> wrong. this little guy has lied so much about my record. >> here we go. >> he's lied so much about my record. i started off with $1 million. i built a company that's worth more than $10 billion. >> you see what happens when you challenge him on a policy issue? you ask him about the economy and the first thing he does is launch an attack about a little guy thing because he doesn't have answers. >> joining our group right now, bloomberg politics, mark hall per in, and john. i thought it was a dismal display because it was clear the two candidates contending in the teens right there had to just bite trump over and over again. to use that same word, the guy who looked good tonight was kasich, who said to one of the

moderators, i'm not going to go with what you're april tempting to get another fight going here. mark? >> i haven't understood the last ten days why why kasich is not getting more of a look from the voters. i thought tonight he did a better job than anybody else on the stage. i thought cruz did a better job than rubio. he picked his spots more and tethered his criticisms that voters could lanch on to in a concrete way. affecting the real lives of voters. he did it in a way that stayed more on message. rubio did more of it. but it was scatter shot. i don't think it kept him on message. he was sacrificing hi brand for not much effect. i thought cruz had the strong -- or kasich had the strongest side, rubio the weakest, the other two in between. >> rubio looked like a tool of his opo people. >> again, it was scatter shot. it wasn't tethered, as cruz said, here's something about trump and here's why voters

should prefer me. it was more just a scatter shot. here's something trump is saying right now, i'm going to pull some opo that will discombobulate him. >> good point. john? what did you think about the whole two hours? >> yeah, i agree with mark. i think there's a -- there's no doubt this was the best debate performance that john kasich has given in the entire campaign. he seems strangely energized. i was talking with him this afternoon. he seems strangely energized by the weirdness of this contest and the whole prospect of forcing this into a contested convention that would happen in cleveland in his home state. he was clear today that he was not going to go down the path of attacking trump, that he was going to try to differentiate himself in a different way. and he stood out as not being a part of that cage match we saw. i agree that cruz was better than rubio. not just because i thought he was more on message, but because of what he's trying to do, which

is to get trump into an ideological contest. in that sense, he was on point. the things he was talking about, were the kinds of things where cruz won arguments with trump tonight. i saw -- i thought rubio and trump were just in a fight. a mass of squabbling. i think most voters will look at that and sort of say, those two guys, they seem to be kicking each other. there were no real points made. i agree with mark, no doubt in my mind, kasich had the best night. cruz did okay. i thought rubio and trump both did themselves no good. >> we have to list rubio's re tort to being called little marco, to big donald. you don't want to call your opponent big anything, after calling him small in any of his body parts. mark, do you think one of the reasons we saw a good defiant performance, a strong performance by john kasich tonight is because of all this attempt to squeeze him out of

the race, that he's the one dividing up the vote and should leave the field? >> he's a very proud guy. i think three other things were in play. one is, only four people on the stage. i don't know what the stop watch said about how the time was divided. i'm sure trump got the most by a lot. that means kasich got a chance to talk. he didn't have to struggle to be relevant. two, he's comfortable here. michigan and ohio, despite the football rivalry, similar audiences. he was a crowd favorite tonight. people liked his message. and three is, the fact that he doesn't seem like he's lusting for the presidency i think is somewhat liberating. the other guys seem intense and combative. the fact he seems relaxed and willing to let the thing come to him is quite becoming. i think it plays well for a lot of voters. he may not get his moment, but i think he gave himself a chance tonight to have his moment. >> i'm glad that you brought up the fact that the ohio state university thinks an awful lot of how they don't like michigan.

let's ask you the narcissistic question, how do you think he thought he did tonight? >> reporter: i think he's going to come down here and say that he won the debate which is what he said at every single debate that he's attended. he'll walk down a set of stairs. john kasich coming down right now. his campaign feeling very good about his performance. governor kasich? we're live with chris matthews. do you want to talk to us? governor kasich, we're live on ms. he denied us, chris. anyway, back to trump. >> okay, back to trump. >> reporter: so i think he's going to say he did well tonight. i think that there was certainly a moment with megyn kelly asking about his consistencies, contradicting himself a number of times on afghanistan, on immigration, also on refugees. and i think that that was a moment that could have really

caught him. but instead, he was able to get out of it by saying that he changed his mind, he learned more facts and he evolved. that was a moment that he probably did better than expected on. and then the talk about trump university. that was certainly the moment that i think that did actually land, talking about the trump university and that lawsuit, megyn kelly is a lawyer so she was on point asking questions about that. the better business bureau did come out today and say that his grade rating for that rating was a-plus to d-minus. currently it has no rating because they believe it's out of business. trump not reading that headline, not getting that note because he's continuing on with the message that it's a-plus, and 90 something percent of people liked it. for the most part i'm not sure this debate is going to change anything. i think people's minds are pretty set. if there's any sway, you might see rubio do a little better in florida than expected, or kasich

do better in ohio than expected. donald trump is certainly going to maintain the lead after this. >> can you clarify that, what was the rating by the better business bureau, the letter grade? >> reporter: the current grade right now is d-minus. it fluctuated from a-plus to d-minus. and we have donald trump here. mr. trump? mr. trump? >> i love the way they fight for these guys. >> reporter: he's going to fox first. >> we'll go right -- we'll get back to you. we'll be right back, okay? great reporting there. thank you, katy tur. we're going to get to trump here. much more ahead on "hardball." we'll get donald trump's actual grade he gives himself, somewhere between, well, a, and a-plus. the candidates and their

supporters. the key moments that could shape the campaign going forward. you're watching "hardball," the place for politics. at ally bank, no branches equals great rates. it's a fact. kind of like social media equals anti-social. hey guys, i want you to meet my fiancée, denise. hey. good to meet you dennis.

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this little guy has lied so much. >> here we go. >> about my record. >> here we go. >> he's lied so much about my record. >> this little guy. it really is grown-up stuff, this little guy. welcome back to "hardball" and our coverage of tonight's -- i guess it was a debate. it seemed like a vetting by the moderators and the other candidates of donald trump. we're back with michael steele and robert costa, and we've got hallie jackson working the spin room of john kasich. hallie, thank you for joining us. >> let's chat with the -- >> i only wait for matthews,

okay? he made sure tip o'neil put my on the armed services committee. >> how did you think the debate went for you tonight? given that a lot of the focus was on donald trump -- >> no, i thought it was a very good debate. i'm beginning to let people figure this out so people can get to know who i am. not just the competence of the domestic and foreign policy expertise, but maybe a little bit more heart. it's been the frustration for me is the town halls are so fantastic, and the debates are so constraining. but i felt tonight, again, i made additional progress. i'm happy about it. everybody on my team is really happy about it. so good stuff. >> do you think your message is breaking through given that you have your people -- folks talking about small hands and what it means? >> i think it is breaking through. and i think that people are starting to pay attention. and i can tell by the crowds and the media coverage. we're doing fine. are you looking over to see where trump went? >> no. i'm trying to -- there's a million people. i'm trying not to get knocked

down here. >> a little bit of substance that matters in this business. somebody in the program with chris said, you seem more energied the last ten days. you seem like you're feeling the momentum for the crowd. why do you think folks in the establishment haven't necessarily coalesced around you? >> they never liked me. >> why not? >> because i give them trouble. they don't tell me what to do. they're a bunch of k street people that -- they never liked me. i caused trouble for them. i'm a change agent. >> you're not a member of the establishment? >> i've never been a member of the establishment. >> you've been governor. >> i used to want to think about tearing the walls of the city down, and now that i run the city i wonder. but that lets me reform even more. the people who have been the special interest groups in ohio, we're making great progress there. success is hard to deny. but i make people uncomfortable in the establishment because they don't know what i'm going to do next. i don't have anybody i take orders from except from my wife. so i've never been an

establishment person. look, they didn't want me to be governor to begin with. but we worked it out and we're unified there. but in washington, those people don't like me. they never have. i crushed them 25 years ago when i balanced the budget. we'll beat them again. >> how do you win without their support? >> i don't need their support. they're a bunch of k street types. i get support from the people. >> enough support to beat him? >> a lot of people thought i wouldn't get in, that i wouldn't get to new hampshire, or survive super tuesday. i'm going to ohio, i'm going to win in ohio. >> what about here in michigan? >> we'll have a good showing here. >> but now it seems you're downplaying the expectations. >> because there's only so many hours to be able to get out there and meet people. at the end, we're going to focus -- we've got a lot of volunteers here. the real big kahoona will be ohio. if i win ohio, we're going --

>> chris, do you want to throw something to the governor? >> governor, take a minute here. if you got to run as a republican nominee for president, what would be your core -- oh, okay. well, we tried. pardon me? >> governor, if you got to run as republican nominee for president, what would shall your core -- >> when you say if i should be president of the united states on economic conditions, against hillary clinton, what is the main argument as you imagine it in the fall for a republican president? you? >> the main republican argument as you imagine it in the fall against hillary clinton. when it comes to economic issues. how do you make the case in the fall against somebody like hillary clinton. >> because i've done it already. i did it in washington. >> what's the case? >> the case is that you need to have common-sense regulations. you need to row deuce taxes and have a fiscal plan to take it to balance and make sure you have trained workers.

the developmentally disabled, our friends in the minority community. democrats tell me they're the ones they worry about the most. it's all i hear. i'm beating her by 11 points. i'm a unifier and a change agent. put the two things together and i think we'll be in good shape. >> you made it a point to stay above the fray and out of this insult back and forth, yet that's what we heard a lot of tonight from some of your competitors. what do you make of that, when we're talking in the presidential race -- >> i don't like that. frankly, i'm not going to get in the middle of it. as a result of that, i have an intensity with voters that is unique in this campaign. we've just got to grow the numbers a bit. thank you. >> thank you so much. >> thank you, hallie jackson. of course, we have modern technology, but it can't always move around as quickly -- they move around a room and grab people on the run. michael, let's get kasich a couple minutes here. >> sure. >> i think people are looking,

as i said, shoot the moon. everybody else is discarding their spades. he's grabbing for them. he wants to be positive. and they let him have that field completely to himself. >> in an odd way of the other two on the stage, he's the one who has apparently the clearest way forward. he really has in his mind what he needs to do. >> tuesday next, does well in michigan. >> does well in michigan. and then he's set to go rolling into ohio. and that opens up a whole flood gate of opportunity for him. if the polls stay where they are in florida, florida will take care of rubio. he doesn't have to do anything there. in terms of krzyzewski -- >> you mean he loses? >> yeah, rubio loses because he's down. you look at where cruz is, kasich is the perfect if it to squeeze between him and trump. >> trump had a good weapon he used against him. go down to florida, rubio will spend 25 million bucks or his people will, go down and say,

you notice you gave him a job as senator, he didn't show up? french leave? that would be a pretty good shot. every time the guy talks, but you don't show up for work. >> big news out of florida, governor rick scott. becoming friendly with trump m recent months. now saying he's not going to make an endorsement. he got a lot of pressure from rubio allies not to weigh in. the fact that the sitting governor is not going to back the sitting senator, hurts rubio. >> that's actually in some sense bigger than actually endorsing. >> you start, michael, put it all together now. two contenders trying to win the nomination but way behind. cruz and rubio. you've got one guy way ahead, way ahead in the national polling. and you've got kasich trying to be a positive candidate. if you go into the big tests, michigan, ohio, illinois, florida, the weird thing here is, the dynamic could be that kasich looking good tonight takes away from rubio everywhere, and cruz moves up a

bit. that does not hurt trump. >> well, trump right now, again, debate after debate after debate, tonight is no different, he's the guy that's going to walk out still with the momentum. >> and most of the time. >> and after the day that mitt romney's given him, his base is even more solidified, if not expanded some. so the race becomes, because of the things that happened before this debate, and what occurred during this debate, i think it's become harder to unseat him than easier. >> every night they attack him, they attack him over and over again, the moderators were playing it straight. it's getting more court time in a game. 28 minutes out of 60. >> a different trump than we saw in august. trump turned into a stump speech, immigration, trade. he uses the 30 seconds not just to swat back at his rival but come back to his stump speech. >> is that good? is that positive? >> he's going to the working class voters every moment.

>> you notice he didn't go for megyn kelly tonight. and she really tried to get him. i'm not a media critic, but i saw somebody doing their job. like tim russert, she had all the tapes and stuff. and he wouldn't get mad. he didn't get mad at little marco. that's going to stick. thank you. what a weak response. you're big donald. that doesn't work. write him a new line, will you? thank you, michael steel, robert costa. we'll be back with the top surrogates from the campaign. amarosa, she's backing trump. she's a good guest to have on. they're both coming here to explain how their guy won. i think both of those guys won tonight. they came out ahead tonight because it was the night of the jackals, and they didn't look

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debate tonight. katy tur indicate caught up with donald trump tonight. >> he's the only one that got it. >> how did you feel about tonight's debate? >> i had a good time. i did not think it was as rough as it was. this is number 11 or something. it's ridiculous now. it's part of what you have to do, i guess. but i think it's -- they have overstayed their course. i enjoyed the evening. i thought it was going to be much tougher. it wasn't tougher. and drudge in all the polls are showing i have 79% or something. i'm very happy about it. i'm happy with the way it came out. i thought it would be more evil. i thought it would be more vicious. >> the closer you come to the nomination, will you consider stopping doing these debates? >> well, i think really, how many times can you answer the

same question? it's really that. you know, if i were in the position of the other folks, because they're way behind, i would probably take their -- you know, do what they're doing. i thought it was going to be a lot tougher tonight, to be honest with you. >> what about the schoolyard taunts? >> i didn't see schoolyard taunts. see how beautiful my hands are? those are powerful hands. hit a golf ball 285 yards. i was very proud to hold my hands up. because these are politicians. they say things and they make things up. you know, you have to clear up the record. >> how did you feel about megyn kelly tonight? >> i thought she did a good job. no, no, i thought she did a very professional job, megyn. i really felt she was -- >> what about the university and d-minus -- >> look, i can settle the lawsuit very easily. i'm not a settler. because when you settle cases and get known as a settler, like these banks, are week they get sued, because the executives that make $50 million a year, are settlers.

i'm not a settler. not because i don't want to settle, if you start becoming a settler, if you settle cases, everybody brings suits against you. we'll win that case. we have tremendous report cards from a lot of the people, most of the people that took the courses. and i think we'll win that case. i think we'll win it easily. i win a lot of cases. >> what is your -- >> i'm not concerned. >> ted cruz less than 100 delegates behind you. are you concerned that he's going to be able to get closer to you in -- >> no, i'm not concerned. i think we're doing very well. we're very strong. we're leading in a lot of different places, as you know. by tremendous numbers. and i think we're doing very well. whatever it is, it is. but i think we're doing very well. >> you sounded very presidential. your mar-a-lago press conference almost looked like the east room of the white house. >> great setting. >> everybody remarks on how presidential you sounded. and then today, you're talking about hands and things on a debate stage. do you think that you're going

to moderate yourself -- >> i think i did better today than i did at mar-a-lago. >> do you think you'll moderate yourself when you get to the general election? >> oh, yes. when you're fighting 17 people, it's one thing. now fighting five, it will change very easily. >> and move to the center? >> i don't know what you mean. >> i don't know what you mean by that. that's donald trump in the spin room with nbc's katy tur. she had a good point about he was at least faux presidential on saturday night. then got back in the schoolyard. little marco and big donald. what's the point of that. joining me is former u.s. marine and talk show host, montel williams. congratulations, at least among our very small but informed circle of people here. we think he did great. >> chris, i'm telling you, across the country you're seeing a lot of people, whether they be pundits or politicians coming

out behind john kasich. i think what he did is clear. the same thing he did in houston. didn't get much credit that he needed from the performance then. tonight he nailed it. in every single case, did you notice not once did either cruz or rubio or even donald trump question anything that came out of john kasich's mouth. so that's one of the things you've got to take a look back at this entire debate. every time he spoke, they all looked at him and then went on to beat each other, because there was nothing they could say. i have to make an important point, though. this is, again, just listening to what donald trump had to say. when he talks about certain things, i stay out of the conversation. but when he starts saying he's going to give our u.s. soldiers illegal orders, and expect them to follow them, i wanted to go back to look at the massacre in vietnam. and other times when soldiers were giving an unlawful order, if they follow it, that does not get them out of the cases that

he claims he can win. that's called court-martial and leavenworth for life. he's got to understand that there's things he's talking about, and i wish the american public could see it also, he wants to be commander in chief, people at the rallies for them will be some of the people he sends off to fight. when he sends them off and tells them to do things illegally, they will be held accountable. we've got to get help behind him. i think some of the generals talking to him, they need to smack him upside the back of the head and say, don't say that again. >> thank you for your service. the whole question of killing their families. >> correct. >> it's a little middle eastern, medieval, going back and looking for where their families are. it sounds like mob talk, at best. >> it's called war crime, and again, if we're going to put somebody in office as a commander in chief, you want people to stand up and say, i support the officers over me. they have to give the lawful orders. when the commander in chief

starts with illegal orders, you just set up another -- you set up war crimes for eternity. he claims he's talking to generals, i don't know one general or admiral in this country who would support forcing soldiers to support an unlawful order, knowing that that will lead them to court-martial and also probably international tribunals. >> let me get back to you on the question of john kasich. michigan next tuesday, coming up fast. a big state. moderate state politically. not a right-wing state by any means. like pennsylvania. after that, we'll go to ohio. john kasich's home turf. we'll go to florida that same night. and illinois. what can he do that date? he can win ohio. >> ohio, i think he's got. don't count him out for michigan. people tonight are going to be looking at what he did, think back on it and recognize that he had three children playing in the corner trying to steal each

other's marbles, and one standing in the middle of the playground, saying, while they're doing that, let me explain how we'll get the playground back together again. you had the adult out there. i think that will reverberate. >> when you say something like that, montel, i do think back to when i played marbles. we would have these tin cans, and marbles. remember the big ones? >> called the hugies. if they tried to steal them, you smacked them on the back of the head. >> i wonder how many people grew up the right way like you and i did. >> thank you. >> a big trump supporter, amarosa, how do you grade your guy's performances? it's so sloppy out there. it is so unpleasant to watch. little marco, and big donald, and all the spraying and basically spitting at each other for two hours. there was no moment of sublime

discussion there tonight at all. that you're flexible, you can do yoga? what is it supposed to be telling us? >> can i just respond to something montel said. it's a crime kasich hasn't been in his home state of ohio in the past year. he was in new hampshire. about 200 appearances in new hampshire. who is running the state of ohio while he's running around the country? he acts like he's above the fray but he's neglecting the people from ohio. i'm from ohio. the fact that he has not been there doing his job. and neglecting the folks of the buckeye state, i think that's a crime in and of itself. >> you don't think -- let's get that straight. you don't think incumbent should run for higher office? they should give up office before they run? how do you run for president without going to the states where people expect you to be? >> you have to go to the states but you cannot neglect your home state. >> well, you opened up this line

of discussion. explain how you campaign-how do you campaign without campaigning? >> he should have resigned as the governor of ohio if he wanted to go do 200 appearances in new hampshire. you know he cannot run the state while he's in new hampshire doing that many of appearances. it's just open-and he has no clear path to becoming the nominee. it's a waste of time and he's neglecting the folks in my home state of ohio where my family is watching tonight. >> let me ask you this. you notice that donald trump did not attack kasich, and you are. explain the difference. >> you know what? kasich is playing the game to become somebody's vice presidential nod. that's fine. but at least admit it. >> is trump playing him? >> you know what, he would be a good choice. >> let's be sophisticated here. obviously -- the -- >> to address kasich and his patronizing stance because he was being attacked on the left

and on the right. is he playing kasich? >> playing meaning this, if he thinks kasich is going for vp, he doesn't whack him. he doesn't spank him. he lets him try to be nice and play nice. is trump playing him that way? you want to run for vp, i'll be nice to you. just don't attack me. and it's working. he hasn't atracked trump. >> he absolutely -- i will address what's important when he comes out and says he was the only grown-up. he's playing a game, too. he's being clever and trying to vie for presidential -- to be his vice president. at least he should be honest about that. and not act like he's above the fray. that's all i'm saying. >> i think he played a different game which is hearts, where you let everybody else discard and go for the cards. it's easier when everybody else is doing the opposite. thank you. you don't have to be so tough on me. i'm just trying to explain this thing. two hours of intellectual understanding out of something

that wasn't that intellectual, to be honest with you. do you agree? katy tur is in the spin room right now wi. katy, thank you. >> surrogate, marco rubio. how do you think the senator did tonight? >> i thought he did very well. he needed to have donald trump revealed his true nature. he talked about how many inconsistencies he has in his record. that only happened because marco rubio took the debate to him. marco rubio talked about his plan, his vision for this country. he laid out a positive vision. donald trump has nothing but basically jabs and insults for people. he never could answer a single question about policy. >> senator rubio got in the mud over the weekend. do you think that was a wise move for the campaign? >> i think what has to happen in the race, the republican voters who are making a decision about the primary have to see truly that donald trump doesn't recht the vaulgs that the primary

voters share. rubio is actually taking the fight to tmp. he's the only one on the debate stage tonight who got donald trump to admit he's wrong in so many positions. >> what is the path forward for him? >> he continues to share the vision, that positive vision for of the country. he continues to rack up delegates like he has been. this is going to be a long slog. we knew it would be. this is a 50-state strategy that marco has in place. he's the only one who's had it in place since day one. this is not a sprint. this is a marathon. >> he said he would get in his truck and drive around this country in order for donald trump not be the nominee. not be president of the united states. at the end of the debate he said he would support him if he was the nominee. that seems inconsistent. >> everybody recognizes this is a debate. people will have heated and passionate disagreements. tonight i think what you saw isn't anything else other than one candidate showing that they could win the fight against hillary clinton, that's marco rubio, because he has the right

vision for this country, and one candidate who can stand up to donald trump. when dald trump was asked questions about foreign policy, he couldn't answer. all he could do is insult. when donald trump was asked whether or not he was cozying up to vladimir putin, you heard donald trump say, no, i didn't. we know from past experience he's taken a position of neutrality as it relates to israel. that's not the nominee that the republican voter wants. >> we're in michigan right now, 45 minutes from flint. marco rubio got the only question on flint tonight, i believe. his answer was that he believes it's terrible. but that governor snider took responsibility for it. governor snider is not a very popular character in this state when it comes to that issue. especially in flint. do you think that was a wise move? or do you think he needs to be more forceful on the response to a major crisis in an american city where thousands of people could be poisoned by lead? >> i think what marco talked

about is about the major crisis, and how angry he is about what's unfolded there. he also talked about the need to have a plan to development a plan in response for flint. and also express disappointment that democrats are using this more for political gain than policy solutions. we saw a key distinction between marco rubio who has policy distinctions and policy issues and policy platforms, ideas to move the country forward. you saw in donald trump somebody who just has platitudes, and not a plan for this country. >> was he successful in diminishing donald trump tonight? >> i think donald trump was successful in diminishing donald trump tonight. i think marco was the only one to provide a little more ammunition for the destruction of donald trump tonight. here's a guy who stood on the stage and basically countered his own positions on immigrations and vis as. a guy who countered his own statements a couple of months ago about vladimir putin. and said tonight that he supports gun rights and second amendment when we know he's

taken anti-gun positions in the past several years. in fact, he wrote about it in a book that was talked about tonight. i think what the republican voters saw tonight is that they want a republican nominee who cannot only win the primary, but win the general election against hillary clinton. they saw that in marco rubio tonight. that's what marco needed to do and he's on his way to the nomination. >> thank you. back to you, chris. >> katy tur with the surrogate for little marco as he was called tonight, cory gardner of colorado. much more ahead in the republican race. there were moments in the debate out there in detroit, beautiful room, wasn't it? one of those great old movie theaters. i would like to see lawrence of aarabia in that movie theater. >> i think the american people understand that yelling and cursing at people doesn't make you a tough guy. when you think about success, what does it look like? is it becoming a better professor by being a more adventurous student? is it one day giving your daughter

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can you definitively say you will support the republican nominee even if that nominee is dond j. trump? senator rubio, yes or no. >> i'll support the republican nominee. >> ted cruz? >> yes. because i gave my word that i would. >> governor kasich, yes or no, would you support donald trump as the nominee? >> yeah. i kind of think before it's said and done, i'll be the nominee. >> we're back in the special edition of "hardball." midnight on the east coast, live coverage on the republican debate. david, and howard, and megan murphy for bloomberg. and with us from detroit is nancy. she's a columnist with the detroit free press. i guess we better go to the

local person on the beat out there. nancy, tonight i have to ask about the movie theater. a beautiful room tonight. >> it's a live theater. they do broadway shows there, other kinds of shows. it is a beautiful, beautiful building, though. >> i told people i wanted to watch lawrence of aarabia in there some night. give me a michigan reaction. it seems to me kasich is a better fit for michigan. but i don't know. you tell me. >> you know, there's a lot of commonality between michigan and ohio, as much as we like to deny it with the big rivalry and everything. what the detroit free press did showed trump coming out by only ten points. kasich polling a little better here than in other places. the primary is obviously tuesday, so we'll find out then. >> who is the biggest threat to trump? >> cruz seems to be -- staying

above the gross bickering we saw tonight between rubio and trump. that's a better look than maybe making jokes about the stuff they were making jokes about tonight. >> i know. i was going to say, megan, the standard now that's been set is so low, and below the belt, it's about urination, a penis size -- >> absolutely. >> it's getting ridiculous. it is ridiculous. high school you would be put out in the hallway for this stuff. you would be sent home. >> when you basically have people debating the size of what they were debating tonight, you know, where are we going to end up with this? where is the party going to draw the line? >> where's reince priebus? shouldn't he run out in a striped refer reef's uniform and blow the whistle? can he stop this? >> i hope someone stops it. there's nothing worse i can think of. another seven months of

discussing things like this. >> howard, we haven't seen this. it's embarrassing. it's really stupid. >> maybe in my high school fraternity. >> little marco, his re tort was the least -- i mean, todd harris has to give a better writing for this, his writer, big donald. that shows your old man. it was absurd. >> the obvious point here is the only person to benefit from the below the belt talk is john kasich. because he stayed out of the whole thing. he talked about substance. he's playing his brand, to his brand, to his card, to his region. and he benefits by default while they spend their time -- especially rubio and trump. >> the interesting thing -- >> by the way, one of the moderators asked him to bite. he said, i'm not going to bite. remember? >> yes. >> but is this really going to move -- >> i think kasich -- >> kasich has ohio and has to do well in michigan.

he has to be number two in michigan. >> conventional politics, if you are the attack dog, you may take a bite out of the person you attack, but it usually doesn't help you that much. it didn't help chris christie when he took down marco rubio. the people who like trump like it. but he's being divisive and a bully. they like it with trump. when rubio does it, i'm not sure it makes him look more -- gives him greater stature. >> every poll has shown in every focus group, it diminishes marco rubio to do what he's doing. >> the other thing about rubio that was so odd. the last question of the night, would you support donald trump to the other three candidates. he spent two hours calling him a con artist, a fraud and everything else. and then said he would support him. >> let me go back to nancy. what will we look for tuesday night as we cover the returns? is there a pattern to -- the

republicans probably in the city, but how do the numbers come in? anything interesting there? >> i'm sorry, i didn't hear you. >> can you hear me now? >> yes, i can. >> how do the numbers come in tuesday night, what will we look for, figuring out who will win michigan? what's going to happen? >> i think kasich does have a potential to make a stronger showing here than he has in other states. it's a rust belt area. a lot of stuff he can speak to people about here. he's got a lot of connections in the local republican party. there are people who would really like to see him do well. i think we could see him make a stronger showing here than he has in other states. that's what i'm looking to see if that comes true next week. >> okay. thank you, nancy. david, howard, megan, and much more ahead in tonight's debate. the candidates, the best lines and announcements from the panel tonight. (pilot talking to tower on radio)

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which means when they save, you save. that's auto and home insurance for the modern world. esurance. backed by allstate. click or call. welcome back. i'm chris matthews in washington. tonight's republican debate was the night of the jackals as far as i'm concerned, as i've dubbed it. trump the clear front-runner after winning 10 of the first 15 primary contests. let's watch it. >> donald trump is basically mocked everybody with personal attacks. he's done so to people that are sitting on the stage today. he's done so about people who are disabled. he's done it about everyone other candidate in this race.

if there's anyone who's deserved to be attacked that way, it's been donald trump for the way he's treated people in the campaign. two-thirds of the people who cast the vote in the caucus has voted against you. they do not want you to be our nominee. the reason why is because we are not going to turn over the conservative movement or the party of lincoln or reagan for someone whose positions are not conservative. >> if we nominate donald, we'll spend the spring and summer with the republican nominee facing a fraud trial that hillary clinton -- >> stop it. it's a minor case. it's a minor civil case. >> with hillary clinton pointing out that he supported her four times in a presidential race. >> it's a minor civil case. >> donald, learn not no interrupted. >> if you want to know what joe mccarthy was like in the early 1950s, watch cruz. he says unless you release tapes of your interview with "the new

york times" editorial board, you're guilty. chuck hagel, he took $200,000 from the north koreans. unless you can prove otherwise. that is ted cruz's method of operation. michael steele, chairman of the republican national committee, robert costa, political reporter for the "washington post." and in detroit, amarosa, she supports donald trump. let me start with you. let's start with ama rosa. i want thoughts here about this. the attacks that came from two sources tonight. i think everyone here was saying, i haven't decided, but that the least effective assault was from rubio, the more concerted ideological attempt, which is consistent, and i think pretty unacceptable, because it is mccarthyite, coming from

cruz. which is to accuse your candidate of being guilty basically of fraud. he did it the other night. just says it. he just says it because he can say what he wants legally with a libel lawsuit during a campaign. tax fraud, tonight it was fraud with something else to do with his university. he throws these charges around, which is resonating with the mccarthy era. categorize the two. >> the hit from the establishment, we get to rubio. and then cruz with his snide kind of way of trying to attack. but what's most important is that this fox news, with these slides and these videos, i mean, the fix was in. they pulled up no slides and no videos for any other candidate. but every time donald trump went to respond to something, they had a video or a slide for him. and so it was very interesting. it didn't matter where it was

coming from. donald trump was up there fighting for his political life and i thought he did very well. >> commercially, why do you think fox did that? >> i think they are part of this whole move. it's very clear that the republican establishment is not respecting the will of the people. the will of the people have voted. they show they want donald trump. but they use all these ways so they can get to a brokered convention and get a candidate that they can control and manipulate. donald trump cannot be controlled. god forbid they keep coming at him. every time they do, he keeps rising and getting stronger and stronger. and people see the tactics. fox was in on it tonight. the trump university thing over and over again. even after he moved on from it. megyn kelly went right back to it. it was just so clear that they were trying to hit him very hard. >> let's watch that right now. >> you're going to see it's a d-minus. >> no, no --

>> before they had -- >> go to marco rubio.com -- >> senator rubio, stand by. let him finish his point. >> it is right now an "a." once they had the information, it got switched. the only reason it was a "d" was because we didn't care, we didn't give them the information. when they got the information, it became an "a." >> wait, with respect, we went back -- with respect, we went back and looked at this. the rating from the better business bureau was a d-minus. the last publicly available rating in 2010. it was the result of the number of complaints -- >> it was elevated to an "a." >> that's never been publicly released. >> i spoke to a victim. there are so many, i can't talk to them every day. they told me exactly what happened. he signed up for this course because they believed mr. trump was this fantastic businessman. that donald will teach them the tricks of the trade. they paid $15,000 for this course. they were asked for additional

money if they really wanted the real secrets of success. they had to pay even more money. you know what they got in these courses? stuff you can pull off of zillow. they asked for their money back when they realized what a scam it was. >> if we nominate donald, we'll spend the spring and summer with the republican nominee facing a fraud trial -- >> oh, stop it. it's a minor case. it's a minor case. excuse me. it's a minor civil case. >> with hillary clinton pointing out that he supported her four times in a presidential race. >> it's a minor civil case. >> donald, learn not to interrupt. it's not complicated. count to ten, donald. >> that's the kind of joke performance. count to ten. what is this guy trying to accomplish? i'll ask robert about this. what is that rhetoric? you're the grown-up and the other guy-not, is that the

posturing that's going on here? >> the temperamental argument against trump. i'm not sure that's going to cut. the one case cruz has to make as he has been in the trenches, in the movement right ever since he got to the senate. he wants to draw a fault line down the center on ideology. but it seems like the voters out op the trail, they like the angry temperament. >> that's the problem cruz has, this is not an ideological campaign. trump has trumped the argument, just like he's done on the social issues. and the other ideological arguments. >> nobody's told that to cruz yet. he makes regular references to the bible and israel and the paint by numbers points you do if you want to appeal to the fundamentalist right. >> but they're not with him. we saw that in iowa. we've seen it in nevada and new hampshire and south carolina now. so they're trying to pull that argument back. because that's the one anchor that he has.

to robert's point. because he came in on that charge. on that charging horse. and that horse is kind of moved up from under him. trump has one of the reins. >> when you're asked a question on television, you have to give an answer. he was asked, do you think same-sex couples should be allowed to adopt? he gave a long answer that had nothing to do with the question. he dropped it and moved on. that was a very good question, i thought. if they would have been able to get an answer. it tells you about your sense of tolerance, if you disagree with a certain person's relationships or whatever. orientation. however you want to look at it. it would have told us something. i bet you kasich would have said, yeah, probably. this guy never had the nerve to say no. he played it off as state's rights. the first question i ask the state's rights, how do you vote in the state?

you're an individual voter. and you're also a u.s. senator. >> the answer from many republicans is to go back to the state's issues because they don't want to make it a personal issue. all of these people on the stage are the final four. they see the general election ahead of them. they want to eye it. they don't want to alienate the voters in the suburbs. supreme court's already ruled on same-sex marriage. so they know they've still got to win a primary, keep it on the legal state's issues. >> does anybody know what they're doing? can't people hear the state's rights answer? >> that's the whole rub here. why do you think donald trump is where he is right now? they have been hearing it for years. and they're no longer buying it. that's been the biggest problem that the other three candidates have had. >> amarosa, let's talk manners. manners on saturday night, trump gave a very presidential -- there must have been six flags behind him. that's always a sign of serious business. it was a press conference delivered at the end of a political night.

and what he did was answer questions, very calmly. he was on his best presidential behavior. then tonight -- >> he was. >> -- was it his fault he was dragged back into the sandbox? >> he was already just kind of amped from the way the day started. i hate to keep going back to the romney thing, but when a candidate has to spend most of his day dealing with the former nominee who's attacking him and not be able to prepare mentally for this debate. this is what you get. you get somebody who's ready to go. that's where donald trump's temperament was so much different this evening. he had to deal with the romney issue. no other candidate had to deal with an attack like that, like donald trump did. >> anyway, trump clashed with megyn kelly a bit, who played a video on the inconsistent issues. >> you change your tune on so many things. and that has some people saying, what is his core? >> megyn, i have a very strong core. i have a very strong core.

but i've never seen a successful person who wasn't flexible, who didn't have a certain degree of flexibility. you have to have a certain degree of flexibility. you can't -- for instance, let's say on the second question, you can't say, it's okay, and then you find out it's not okay and you don't want to do anything. you have to be flexible. because you learn. >> amarosa, flexibility, a new tact. >> i love it. he's evolved. i love that he's evolving. he's showing that he's growing as a candidate. like he says all the time, he's ooh businessman. he was not a politics before he entered this. he's learning, he's growing as he goes. that's a sign of somebody you can work with, somebody who's open to get more information and make decisions based on that information. and not stand firm on a wrong position. i love what i saw tonight from donald. >> would flexibility mean i'm not going to build a wall, but stop illegal hiring in this country? i found another way to stop the flowing of illegal immigrants in

this country, not undocumented people? i'll go from 60 feet to 45 feet? that's a ludicrous conversation about flexibility. >> he was saying that -- he's not going to budge on the wall. he's definitely going to build a wall. and make mexico pay for it. the point he was making is he's willing to -- >> it sounds like you drank the kool-aid. you really think he's going to put a 50-foot wall across the length of the rio grande? he's really going to do that? >> you do know there is already fences across the border. >> no, this wall, there's a fence -- he's talking wall, not fence. he's talking wall. impenetrable -- it is bigger. >> it's not. he's going to build it. and i know that he is going to make mexco pay for it. >> memorial bridge in washington falling down, and everything falling down in our

infrastructure, we're going to say no, let's not fix any of that stuff, let's spend all that concrete, take it down to the mexican border and build a wall. >> listen, chris, something has to be done. we have an issue with illegal immigration in this country. you may mock him about the wall, but something has to be done. >> i agree. >> he's the only candidate that made this issue a central part of his campaign. you mock the wall, but he brought it to the forefront. >> it was called the bipartisan bill that passed the senate and john boehner refused to bring it up. that was a serious attempt. because it would have helped people already here. but it also would have stopped the illegal -- the magnet of illegal jobs in this country. that would really stop them. i don't care how high the wall is, people will find a way to get here if there's a job waiting for them. in a kitchen somewhere in chicago, any decent guy will try to get here to look out for his family. forget the walls, stop the illegality that stops the business in this country. there's another half of this illegality. the business person giving them

the money so they're cheap. thank you, amarosa. you have to make your case. it was well said, though, i have to agree with you on that one. thank you. please come back. michael, robert, thank you. stay with us. anyway, coming up, much more on tonight's debate and the implications of the republican campaign. within ten days from now, practically, we are going to have decisions in florida, ohio, illinois, and, of course, this tuesday in michigan. lots of decisions. plus, we're going to hear the case for senator cruz, from a top supporter of his campaign. i don't think it will be rick tyler. live for tonight, the republican debate in detroit. >> stand by, senator cruz. >> when you wrote her a check in 2008 -- >> let me tell you something, ted. the last person that hillary clinton wants to face is donald trump. that i can tell you.

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this campaign for the last year, donald trump has basically mocked everybody with perm attacks. he's done so to people sitting on the stage today. he's done so about people who are disabled. he's done it about every other candidate in this race. if there's anyone who deserved to be attacked this way it's donald trump. >> every time rubio talks, i think he's rehearsed it, or said it so many times it sounds like he's reading, or he's got a thing in his ear and he's following it. it doesn't seem spontaneous. it seems like part of a speech he's giving. welcome back to "hardball" in detroit. donald trump took on marco rubio for saying he's the only one who can beat him. >> i've heard ted say that over and over again on television that he's the only one that can beat me. just for the record, i've won

ten, he's won three or four? last week, in fact, on tuesday, i was a half a million votes higher than him. i was a million votes higher than marco. 1 million votes. that's a lot of votes. and was by far in first place. so i keep hearing that he's the only one that can beat me. but he's getting beaten very, very badly. so where does this come from? >> two-thirds of the people casting a vote in the primary caucus have voted against you. they do not want you to be our nominee. the reason why is because we are not going to turn over the conservative movement or the party of lincoln or reagan, for example, to someone whose positions are not conservative. >> i didn't know that lincoln was part of the conservative movement. gabe gutierrez is covering the rubio campaign. he's with us now from the debate site tonight. what are they saying in the corner you're covering, the rubio campaign? >> hey there, chris. i did ask todd harris a question earlier in the program about that line. the donald line that he said after he was called little marco. todd harris said, no, it wasn't me.

that was completely spontaneous. that's what he's alleging. >> that's why it was so bad. the best lines are written by todd. go ahead. >> he said it wasn't him. listen, with the rubio camp, they're saying marco rubio was able to land punches on donald trump. on the trump university. that's what they're really trying to push. and they're trying to make the serious takedown of donald trump. i think there's a realization in the rubio camp, maybe he went a little too far last week about the spray tan, the hair, you know, the tweeting on the -- the hair force one, the small hands. they may have gotten pushback for that. what they're arguing is the media didn't care about marco rubio beforehand, or didn't take his speeches live, so they needed to mix it up a little bit of the that way they were able to attract more attention. now they can talk about the substance of policy. it remains to be seen if it has any effect with the voters. >> answer the question, when will he win?

>> see, that's the thing. they're really putting this all on florida. a little while back, they're trying to set expectations a while back. now they're basically admitting they have to win florida. the pole polling has him down by 16 points. they come back and say, we think he's going to get more momentum over the next couple days. and that we feel that now that people are really starting to take on donald trump, that the ads are airing in florida, they feel that this can turn the tide in florida. now, they're going to kansas tomorrow. they added stops you know, his home state. >> of course. >> is jeb bush going to endorse him, might that help him. we don't know. for the marco rubio campaign, they don't have a good answer, what happens if this goes to a

contested convention. they're kind of floating it. but really, their path to the nomination, they feel if they can win florida, get the momentum coming out of florida, then they'll get a week's worth of positive stories. the comeback kid, that sort of stuff. then they feel they can turn the tide. even if they win florida, a steep hill to climb. that's really what it all comes down to right now. they're looking forward to march 15th. >> one big question to you, gabe. the word is out, that marco rubio's very angry with the fact that mitt romney stole the headlines today. that he jumped into this with what purports to be a candidacy. what do you hear? >> well, you know, the rubio campaign is not commenting on that specifically. all we heard from them today is, oh, that they're happy to see that mitt romney's helping expose donald trump for the con man and fraud that he is. you know, that's their standard line that they're giving. no official word yet from the rubio campaign on mitt romney yet. >> okay. thank you so much. nbc's gabe gutierrez covering the rubio campaign. i think he's out in that snowy detroit tonight. thank you, sir. >> it's cold out here. >> moments ago, hallie jackson

caught up with justin amash from michigan who's a surrogate for senator ted cruz. it was taped, but it recently happened. here it is. >> thank you for being with us. overall, what did you think of the tone and tenor of tonight's debate? >> i thought ted cruz did a great job of sounding professional, like the adult in the room, talking about the constitutional principles he believes in, and presenting himself as the clear conservative choice. >> he went after donald trump pretty hard when it came to the issue of "the new york times" tape, trump university. do you find that's going to be an effective line of attack for senator cruz? >> i think it's important that people keep going after trump on those issues and pointing out the inconsistencies, pointing out the fact that with the tape, it's his privilege. it's not the newspaper's privilege. if he wants to waive that privilege, they can release the tape. that shouldn't be a problem. so pointing out those kinds of inconsistencies is important. we want to make sure that donald trump faces the appropriate scrutiny. i think a lot of people like him

because he's brash, he talks the talk, and he's out there saying things that other candidates haven't been saying in the past. a lot much people at home are angry and upset. they want to hear that. but we need a president who is going to be respectful in his discourse, who's going to be honorable in the way they conduct themselves. i think ted cruz is the candidate for them. >> senator cruz has been going after the inconsistencies for weeks now. it seemed to not work for him in the super tuesday states. people went to the polls and it's not resonating with them. how does that change? >> i think it's changing. the state of oklahoma, that wasn't expected to go to ted cruz. ted cruz worked hard, he got his message out there, and he won that state, and won by a pretty good margin. and i think that's important. this is a republican race. we want to see who can do best with the republicans. i think ted cruz has the chance to do the best with the republicans. >> we heard donald trump make

the small hands remark, probably, i would say unprecedented on the debate stage for a presidential candidate. >> that's where we've gotten with this kind of campaign. it's unfortunate, actually. there are people at home who maybe have young kids watching the debate. and we have to be careful what kind of presidential race we're presenting our country and the world. >> do you think ted cruz is the person who can present that kind of presidential performance? >> i think ted cruz looks presidential. he's been respectful in his discourse. sure, you're going to have people challenge each other. that's okay. it's okay to talk about the inconsistencies, it's okay to critici criticize. but there are some limits. i think that getting into the potty jokes is a little bit too much. >> thank you so much. >> thank you. >> that's justin amash from michigan who supports ted cruz. we're back with michael steele and robert acosta.

i heard tonight, i guess it was katy talking to trump, he doesn't want any more debates. he's not gaining. but he can't refuse to show up, because look what happened in iowa. next week in florida? >> another one in miami. same forum. when we talked to the trump campaign, they feel good where they are. these debates are a distraction, though. trump's barely ahead in this race. debates are something to endure, not to really -- >> amarosa said he does prepare. she gave that away. she said he didn't have a chance to do it today. >> he didn't have a chance to do it today because of -- i think that speaks to the discipline that he's sort of developed along the way. you could tell from the first debate where i think he figured he would go out and rif for two hours. to later de brats where he clearly had a thought process. as robert said, he would always come back to the talking point. >> this is a seasoned trump. >> there is a guy in that body. >> oh, sure. >> when you big him, the face gets angry, it con torts. he looks down and says, he is counting to ten.

he is really mad. >> i think the skin may still be a little thin on certain subjects. and i think -- >> how about his finances? >> well, i think -- >> they always go after him on his finances. >> i don't think he minds talking about that so much. that's sort of his wheel house. i think it's the other stuff. >> like? >> well, when rubio's hitting him on the university. >> fraud. like he's bernie madoff. >> i think impugning his integrity probably bothers him, calling him a poor businessman. he's built an empire. and they haven't. they sat and -- >> i think when you watch kasich tonight, you've got to beat trump. you can't just take trump down. it hasn't happened month after month. these candidates, if you're a rival, you've got to present yourself as someone who's at his level politically of the i think kasich tonight separated himself. >> if i were him, not giving advice on television, if i were trump, i would go to rubio again and again and do it on television, and in an ad campaign.

before somebody tells you what they're going to do, first ask him what he's done. rube yoo-done what? >> been a u.s. senator and foreign relations committee. >> trump's done all this stuff. he's actually put the buildings up. he's done stuff. just say that. before somebody tells you what they're going to do, first ask them what they've done. it's a great question. for every voter. what have you done? i think -- it doesn't have to be in politics. it can be in building -- what have you achieved in life? have you ever hired a single human being, created one job? you notice that rubio couldn't answer that question. the answer is no. >> that's how kasich answers every question. he answers with what he's done first to set up what he's going to do. >> you know what i'm struck by -- >> you're right. >> and everyone's trying to make this about a flip-flop election, how trump flip-flopped. those are the old rules in politics. this is a new year.

>> in this business, on "meet the press," they would grab a guy and open up a manila folder and there was the magic question. david duke, what made you hate america so much that you joined the nazi party? these are not -- these are different things. it's not about the importance of what he asked about. robert steele, robert costa. more on tonight's debate. we'll hear from donald trump on what he thought about tonight's performance. i'll bet you that he says he's the best. live, for tonight's republican debate. >> will you promise that you will -- and how soon will you move your clothing collection, the clothes that are made in china and mexico? >> they devalue their currencies, and they make it impossible for clothing makers in this country to do clothing in this country. >> the answer is, he's not going to do it. you know why? there are plenty of clothing makers in america. if you go on our website,

everything we have on there is made in america. the reason why he makes it in china or mexico is because he can make more money on it. that's why he's doing it.

you could resolve this issue very quickly by simply releasing "the new york times" tape. because listen, maybe it's right. that you didn't tell them you're misleading the american people. >> the tapes i'm not going to discuss here. >> if you didn't tell them that,

the tapes will prove you're innocent. but if in fact you went to manhattan and said, i'm lying to the american people, then the voters have a right to know. >> you're the liar. you're the lying guy up here. you're the one. you're the one. >> what are you hiding in the tapes? >> i've given my answer, lying ted. i've given my answer. >> lying ted. boy, that went elevated. at that point i think it was a deserved title for cruz. anyway, we're back with the live coverage following tonight's gop debate out in detroit. joining me are two top political reporters who were there for the fight. eli was with politico. i've got to start with my friend sabrina, and i'll get to eli. sabrina, what is the headline coming out of tonight's kerfuffle, or whatever i can come up with? what was it about that you could actually put a heading on? >> i think the headline will be, you have another ugly debate between the republican candidates that really doesn't change anything in a significant

way about the direction of the race. donald trump once again aggressively attacked by marco rubio and ted cruz. we saw that happen in the last debate. there was nothing that really stood out that i think would stick in the minds of voters that at this point would blunt trump's dominance going into the next primary contest. i think also, the problems for both marco rubio and ted cruz, they spent the entire debate saying trump is unfit for the presidency, that he would be a disaster for the republican party as a nominee, and after the debate pledging they would support him anyway. >> you're extremely coherent in putting it all together in about three sentences. let me go to eli on the same question. what's the headline? how do you put the follow-up to the headline? what's in the jump? what have we got here? >> i think one headline could be race to the bottom. and we've been seeing this for a while now. i think if anyone's cheering tonight, it's democrats. the democrats put out a very succinct press release tonight basically with a headline about

donald trump asserting his manhood on the debate stage. whether it was jokes or the debates about the questions about process and polls, and contested convention. the democrats look at this republican nomination fight just going off the rails. and i think they have to be feeling pretty good with every passing debate at this point. >> what did you make of them all saying, the other people, the other three, that they would support trump were he the nominee? after all this idea that he's a disaster, not a conservative, not a republican. oh, yeah, we'll back him if he wins. >> yeah, i mean, they've all pledged to do that. they pledged to do that months ago. i think they were in a position to sort of have to say that. i think it's the most uncomfortable for rubio who in the past week since the last debate has been pushing out the never trump hash tag and making his campaign about, i will never stop at nothing unless trump is defeated. in two weeks if rubio loses florida, they say he's not going to be the nominee. but if trump is the nominee, you heard rubio have to say, yes, i will support him. that undercuts the whole forcefulness that he will fight trump to the very end.

>> sabrina, the question wasn't asked, i didn't hear it, maybe it was, was mr. trump, will you support the nominee of the party if that nominee comes from the theft of the convention itself? somebody beats you in the primaries, but will you support the nominee? >> i think that would be a scenario in which trump would walk back from the pledge. he's already threatened to do that on multiple occasions anytime there are reports of the establishment of the party elites trying to coalesce around an alternative and try to find a way to undermine his candidacy. at the same time i think the question reflected what the reality is in this race, that donald trump is on the way to locking up the nomination, that the idea of a contested convention is a reality, as much as trmp's opponents would like to believe that that is where

we're headed. i think that mayhem would ensue if that were the case. you can imagine the kind of protests you would see from donald trump's supporters who we learned are very committed. in fact, die-hard supporters, no matter what he says, they stand by him. i think the party knows they can't go down that path if he is able to secure the delegates he needs. >> thank you, sabrina of "the guardian." up next, we're going to hear from republican front-runner donald trump. you're watching "hardball," the place for politics, with full coverage of tonight's republican debate. >> he hit my hands. nobody's ever hit my hands. i've never heard of this. look at those hands. are those small hands? and he referred to my hands, if they're small, something else must be small. i guarantee you there's no problem. i guarantee. >> okay, moving on.

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we're back with our live coverage following tonight's raucous republican debate. raucous being a nice word for it. in the last hour we heard from donald trump in the spin room. here's nbc's katy tur hitching up with the republican front-runner still, i believe, here's the interview. >> how are you doing? >> i think chris matthews is terrific. he's the only one that got it. >> how did you feel about tonight's debate? >> i thought it was great. i really had a good time. i did not think it was as rough as it was going to be. i thought it was going to be a lot rougher. >> do you think the debates are worthwhile? >> no, i think they're boring. i think it's ridiculous now. but it's part of what you have to do, i guess. but i think they have overstayed their course. i enjoyed the evening. i thought it was going to be much tougher. it wasn't tougher.

and drudge in all the polls show i have 79% or something, and i'm very happy about that. but i did think it would be more evil. i did think it was going to be more vicious. >> the closer you come to the nomination, will you consider stopping doing these debates? >> how many times can you answer the same question? it's really that. and if i were in the position of the other folks, because they're way behind, i would probably take their -- you know, do what they're doing. i thought it was going to be a lot tougher tonight, to be honest with you. >> what about the schoolyard taunts of the debate? >> i don't see schoolyard -- look, see how beautiful my hands are? those are powerful hands. hit a golf ball 285 yards. i was very proud to hold my hands up. because these are politicians. they say things and make things up. you have to clear up the record. >> what did you think about megyn kelly tonight? >> i thought she did a very

professional job, megyn. i really felt she was -- >> about the university and -- >> look, i can settle the lawsuit very easily. i don't want to settle the lawsuit. i'm going to win the case. i'm not a settler. because when you settle cases, and you get known as a settler, like these banks, every week they get sued, because the bankers who make $50 million a year, they settle. the executives are settler. i'm not a settler. not because i don't want to settle, but if you settle cases, everybody brings suits against you. we'll win that case. we have tremendous report cards from a lot of the people, most of the people who took the courses. and i think we'll win that case. i think we'll win it easily. i win a lot of cases. >> how concerned are you about the prospects of a broken convention? >> i'm not concerned. >> cruz, less than 100 delegates behind you. are you concerned that he's going to be able to get closer to you than -- >> no, i'm not concerned. i think we're doing very well. we're very strong. we're leading in a lot of different places, as you know. by tremendous numbers. and i think we're doing very well. whatever it is, it is.

but i think we're doing very well. >> you sounded very presidential, your mar-a-lago press conference almost looked like the east room of the white house. >> great setting. >> everybody remarks on how presidential you sounded. and then today you're talking about lands and things on the debate stage. do you think that you're going to moderate your -- >> i actually thought i did better today than i did at mar-a-lago. >> do you think you can moderate yourself when you get to the general election? >> oh, certainly, it will be different. when you're fighting 17 people, that's one thing. then you're fighting five, nine, ten, no, it will certainly change very easily. >> and will you move to the center? >> i don't know what you mean by that. >> i don't know what you mean by that, what a great answer. that was donald trump after tonight's debate. francesca is with the "daily mail." did somebody here say during the break, while we were watching this, i shouldn't say the break,

that melanie, his beautiful wife, liked the joke about the hands and all? >> apparently dana bash had time with her and she said it was a great moment. i think for all of us it will be the moment that stays in all of our minds, that's for sure. >> i was looking at the a.p. headline tonight, it's right there in the lead. about the hands and how he said i have no problem there. >> i'm glad she's so proud of donald trump in that regard. >> just remember -- >> that was a moment for me, chris -- >> what was one of his wives' names? >> marla maple. >> by a unanimous decision. >> it outlived its usefulness for me. i think we should be -- >> be done with the debates? >> yeah. >> i know, i know. >> let's just -- >> i don't think we learned anything. >> the university, again, we're going to do cruz saying if you don't release the tapes of your op-ed, or editorial board meeting with "the new york times" --

>> and he'll continue to say a burj of things that no one's ever suggested happened in the middle of those -- what else are we going to learn? >> i think they still have yet to drop their pants. that's obviously where this is heading. >> what's going on is this clear-cut departure from any policy debate. we have serious policy debates within the republican party. what do we do with trade? remember, that was a big issue in the republican party. they're free traders. didn't really come up tonight. did anyone challenge trump's close the door policy? >> we only talked about the flint, michigan, water crisis for about 45 seconds. that's got to be a republican issue. >> it's a republican state. >> it's got to be a universal issue. >> i hate to be the prude on the -- i hate to be the prude on the panel, chris, but there's something to be said for decorum. >> i agree. >> coming up there and -- rubio was asked about this after the debate. and he said -- how do you feel

about behaving in this manner? he said, well, if anyone deserves it, donald trump deserves it. that was his excuse. i try to raise my kids to not behave this way. >> let's not get pious about it. the first hat -- well, it's head of government. chief executive of the executive departments. commander in chief. the other is, head of state. he said he's the representative of our country, to make your point. that's why we put him in the white house, because that's where the family of the president should be held in high esteem. that's why. it's not just a job. you don't live in an apartment and show up for work in the morning. we hold you up as a family and as a person. >> can you envision this person being your commander in chief, going to g-20 with angela merkel and francois hollande. >> i can't imagine trump doing it. >> the other guys? >> we're not really getting these kind of debates. we're not getting anything of

the serious issues that should have been discussed. we're talking about the water crisis. absolutely that should have been discussed longer, considering how close they were to flint. you're talking about trade. trade is a big deal in a state like michigan. those things aren't happening. that's why i said that it's outlived its usefulness. >> it is the trump effect. what's interesting to me is the other candidates went into these debates not looking to behave that way. and trying to find other ways to distinguish themselves. and found that up against donald trump, with the gop electorate being what it is, that they couldn't get any footing. and that they had to -- >> i disagree with you on this point. >> that's not an excuse. it's an explanation. i think it shows what they think the base wants. >> but the fire with fire, what about if someone just took the approach of saying, i'm going to let these people play in the corner. and here's what i'm going to do -- but he doesn't do it. here's my exact plan on how i

would replace obamacare. actually ignore what the questions are even. i'm going to go through for you and go through policy proposals, this is how i would combat this, deal with the opioid addictions. >> the beauty of trump is we don't know what kind of a president he would be. rubio we know. there will be regime change after regime change. our guys and women will never leave the battlefield. for his whole term. from the other guy, cruz, hard right on abortion, hard right. original intent -- we didn't have one in the original intent. an amazing throwback to earlier times. with trump, loose ball. loose ball. >> he's going to build a wall, chris. >> and mexico is going to pay for it. >> anyway, thank you. we already have a fence. maybe a fence. the round table is staying with us. this is "hardball," the place for politics, live for the republican debate in detroit.

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on their devices. order up. it's more than just wifi, it can help grow your business. you don't see that every day. introducing wifi pro, wifi that helps grow your business. comcast business. built for business. let me just ask the voters at home, is this the debate you want playing out in the general election? >> you were part of it, buddy. we're back with david, francesca and megan. who won, tonight, in this -- well, it was a kerfuffle. >> let me say mitt romney lost. he tried to stir up this no-trump movement today. and at the end of the night, they threw him under the bus and said we'll support trump if we lose to him. so this whole gop -- >> do you know why? he's likely running for president. >> they don't like that. they'll be crowded out. >> trump, because he successfully brought half the

rest of the people on the stage down to his level. second place, john kasich, because he got time to talk today. >> who will be in the headline? >> trump. >> trump. and his body parts. >> and little rubio. >> little marco. >> john kasich won tonight. he had a good night. but if we're looking at the larger scheme, we've got another several months to go. unless everybody raises their game, this is going to be a long, brutal -- >> unless michael bloomberg gets in. then it will raise the level of everybody. >> i haven't heard anything about that. >> no comment. >> the next debate worth watching? next week? >> of course. because how low can they go? i don't think they've hit bottom yet. and rubio -- listen, cruz knows he can't win at a broken convention. he has no chance. he has to get into a one-on-one with trump. that's his only path to the nomination. he's not going to lay off. >> i think amarosa was right tonight. i think we're looking at a possible trump-kasich ticket as of tonight. thank you very much.

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front-runner. >> donald trump is a phony, a fraud. >> and donald trump erupts. >> i'll tell you the real reason he chickened out, it wasn't jeb, it was me. >> a leading presidential candidate said this. >> he was begging for my endorsement. i could have said, mitt, drop to your knees. >> the absolute chaos in the republican primary. what to expect at tonight's debate. "all in" starts right now.