speaking of that, thinking of experts, had four good ones today. thank you. that's all for today. we'll be back next week because if it's sunday, it's "meet the press." >> what is happening in flint to a lesser degree is happening throughout this country. in recent years, we have seen a proliferation of millionaires and billionaires, and increase in income and wealth and equality.

>> well, there were two different votes, one under president bush, as you know, in 2008, and then 2009 when president obama came in. and asked us for the vote that hillary was talking about tonight. it was very clear that in order to do what we needed to do for the auto industry, we had to have that pass. and so she's absolutely right. and she was there with us every step of the way. in fact, i co-chaired the bipartisan manufacturing caucus, and hillary was one of the very first members when we formed that caucus. because she really understood, and really understands today the fundamental nature of making things in america.

we don't have a middle class unless we make things. when the choice was there, she voted with us and he did not. >> so your view as a michigan senator, your view of his argument while he would have supported that set-aside, he didn't support the larger t.a.r.p. fund? >> well, the problem is, we didn't get a choice. that's what happens. you have to decide what's most important. and if we had not had that pass, we would have lost millions of jobs. not just in auto manufacturing. but the 120,000 auto dealerships around the country, all of those who are in some way involved in manufacturing automobiles, and manufacturing more broadly, it affected the department of defense, it affected the -- those in aerospace. this was a huge issue. and you had to choose. and when it came time to choose, and i believe choosing the middle class was voting to make sure we continued american manufacturing. >> a big issue for michigan senator, and i dwell on it a little because it does seem to show some contrast.

on the clinton side arguing, look, this is how washington works, if you want that money you have to figure out what's your pragmatic answer. let me also play for you senator sanders drawing contrast on trade. another big issue as you know in your state. take a listen. >> i am very glad, anderson, that secretary clinton has discovered religion on this issue. but it's a little bit too late. secretary clinton supported virtually every one of these disastrous trade agreements, written by corporate america. [ applause ] nafta supported by the secretary cost us 800,000 jobs nationwide, tens of thousands of jobs in the midwest. permanent normal trade relations with china cost us millions of jobs. >> certainly you have constituents who worry about the impact of the trade deals she supported. >> sure.

well, first let me say, and i think -- i guess i feel as a woman as well that she should be held accountable for her votes. you know, not her husband's, or somebody else's votes, and so on, regardless of whether or not she was, you know, supportive of her husband's presidency. the reality is, for her, the big vote was cafta, on the central america agreement. and she voted no. when she had the opportunity to vote, she voted no. now, when she's clearly looking at the transpacific partnership, and after having read it, she said no. and so i think we should judge her on her votes, and when she had to pick, and decide what she was going to do, she's been on the side certainly of fair trade. what i love about her proposals is that on the one hand, she knows we want to export our products, not our jobs, which is why i also disagree with bernie

in his vote on the financing mechanism, so we can actually export our products instead of losing to factories overseas. but she's put together a trade enforcement effort that i've been calling on for years, a trade prosecutor that would report directly to the president of the united states, and take on other countries, just like we do in any other illegal activity, to take them on on behalf of american workers and businesses. >> senator, thank you for your time on a busy night for michigan. we appreciate it. now we're going to hop right over to kasie hunt, i think a few steps away, in another part of the spin room. can you tell us your thoughts on what we're hearing. the senator stabenow points out a point, the nafta, or the '94 crime bill, we're talking about hillary clinton's record of first lady before she took elective office. basically saying that's not really fair game. >> hey, ari, i actually talked a

little bit to this -- about this with some of sanders' top campaign aides here in the spin room. their argument is that she at the time made public statements supporting these initiatives. and of course, one statement she made related to the crime bill became something of a controversial statement, that she has since said that was when she called some young black men predators, and of course, she -- >> super predators, yes. >> super predators, yes, saying, of course, she would not use that language now. but at the time she was talking about that legislation in the 1990s. but it's definitely something the sanders campaign has to grapple with. is she accountable for every single thing her husband said or did that's obviously a standard that we haven't had to grapple with yet in american politics. it's unique to have hillary clinton be in this position. but that is how the sanders campaign would argue it. >> to that point, one of the thing people say is she does

certainly like to own some of the positive aspects of it. so it is a melded thing. here she is talking about success in the '90s. >> at the end of the 1990s, after two terms of my husband's presidency, the unemployment rate in michigan was 4.4%. there had been a net increase of 54,000 manufacturing jobs. there had been a net increase of 653,000 jobs overall. one of the ways jobs were brought to and grown here in michigan was through something called the export/import bank which helped a lot of businesses, particularly small businesses, be able to export around the world. china, germany, everybody else supports their businesses. here in michigan, there's been $11 billion in recent years used to support exports, primarily from small businesses. i favor that. he's opposed it.

>> now, kasie, as you well know, she doesn't have every state's 1999 unemployment record memorized. that's something that they obviously prepared to deal with it, even as some of the surrogates are saying, don't hold her accountable for everything bill clinton's done. >> that's right, ari. i do think that she obviously on the debate stage has said, there are a lot of things about the '90s that are great that take credit for those things. we could debate for a while whether everything in the 1990s worked out. but for them, i think it's clear they want to tie themselves to the positive policies, while at the same time avoiding some of the more controversial things. if you talk to sanders' supporters, they will say that some of the things that happened under bill clinton's presidency is why they're so enthusiastic for bernie sanders now. they feel like -- at the time, of course, bill clinton was leading the democratic party

into a more centric place. if you think about all the lessons the clintons have learned over the years, about how to succeed in american politics, they've all been driven by that idea, that in many ways liberal used to be a dirty word. they started calling themselves progressive. instead of using the word liberal, which is still not part of the vernacular we use on a day-to-day basis. i think hillary clinton has had to grapple with some of the changes in particularly the democratic party since then. i think you saw that in her tussle with bernie sanders over who was a true progressive, whether or not she was. you know, i asked bernie sanders about that and he said, hey, some days. she, of course, has rushed to embrace some of that. i think that's going to be the challenge. i think to take us back to here on the ground, in michigan, i think you're going to see a lot of that play out on tuesday. and i think this is a very, very important primary coming up for a couple of reasons. but mainly because it's going to be the first test of whether or

not bernie sanders can apply these changes in the electorate in a big state in a significant way that could change the delegate math and allow them to say, hey, i could go on to win ohio and illinois. >> a big state that's also a diverse state. kasie, i hadn't thought about slap bracelets from the '90s in a long time. >> i hadn't either, until night. >> again, we can put out a -- >> thank you. our panel is still here. david corn and joan walsh and dorian warren. i want to mention we have judith brown. why don't we start with you. what did you think of some of the equal opportunity and policing discussions tonight? indeed, one of the interesting things was some of the more personal questioning about how do people address their blind spots as leaders in the context of race, or even broader? >> yes, thanks for having me, ari.

sure, the racial blind spot, a little awkward for me at first. to hear them. because actually, hillary clinton did not respond at least initially. and then to hear bernie sanders go on to talk about his -- someone trying to get a taxicab, and then talking about not knowing what it's like to be african-american and live in a ghetto. you know, first of all, bernie sanders dropped the "g" word ghetto. i really don't want to hear about our communities used with that language. but i mean, one thing that was good is that they admitted, we don't know. we have not been in that place. but i do think that they missed an opportunity to hone in on structural racism. and that in fact flint is a case study of structural racism. if you look at it from not only what happened with the flint water crisis, but there's a land grab going on in flint. there's also the loss of black wealth due to the fact that the

auto industry was hit so significantly. and that families are losing their homes that are being sold off for anywhere from $7,000 to $14,000 for a house. education has been underfunded. they did touch on some of these things, but i do think that they needed to make a cogent argument about how flint really does signal for us what happens when structural racism exists in america. >> right. you heard that come out of, as you said, a number of ways. i should mention from our panel here, staying with you, i want to stay with you for another moment, judith. i want to play for you a part of that, a related part of that exchange, which we've been discussing. the crime bill, and whether some of that was a mistake which hillary clinton has acknowledged and how that fits into a racial end for some of these policies. so take a listen to this.

>> why should black people trust you to get it right this time? your husband said this bill was a mistake. do you think it was a mistake? >> he said at the naacp there were some aspects of it that worked well. the violence against women provisions have worked well, for example. but other aspects of it were a mistake and i agree. that's why i'm focused and have a very comprehensive approach toward fixing the criminal justice system. >> judith, this was some of the most blunt questioning, it goes to something racial and political. racial is the idea that the changes that bill clinton brought to the democratic party were built around being a southern governor tough on crime, when that was popular. and so the clintons, the question goes, may be suspect, or less trustworthy because of the way the winds every blowing. that we work within political realities. and obviously there's more

public attention, if not political will for criminal justice reform. >> right. i mean, i think i would have wanted to hear from her just point-blank and from bernie sanders, we were wrong. we were lied on data that showed that there was going to be a spike in crime. and in fact, that's where that term super predator comes from. super predator is one of those terms that we're still dealing with the aftermath of. and all of the wrong criminal justice reforms that came along with it that incarcerated black folks. and i think that was, again, another one of those moments where you could say, you know, we were wrong. and this is what it did to the black community. and here's how we're going to correct it. i think they did hit on some of those points. i think bernie sanders clearly hit on some top things, including militarization of the police, et cetera. but i think, you know, there was a lot of damage done to the african-american community. and i don't know that i felt

that coming from the candidates about kind of the remorse of what happened to the black community because of the failed war on drugs, and then the failed crime bill. >> so e.j., speak to the politics of that. hillary clinton campaigning in south carolina has invoked eric holder in personal events, in her ads. but part of the so-called smart on crime initiative that eric holder pushed is undoing some of what happened in the '80s and '90s, which was bipartisan, and many of them democrats. >> understanding the relationship of the clpts to the african-american communities is mind-bogglingly complicated. on the one side you have everything that my colleague just talked about. the crime bill is a real problem for overincarceration that we're still living with. bill clinton himself said that was a mistake. he's kind of like to say it was done badly. he's basically admitted that was a mistake.

hillary admitted that was a mistake. there were other aspects of the crime bill that actually initially brought it down, because members of the black caucus voted against it. but on the other side within the black community, you also have other clinton initiatives that they support, an economy that was actually particularly good for the black community. if you look at the economic numbers, you can ascribe that to clinton or not, but there are good memories of that period. and clinton himself, while he was going to his dlc side, on some questions, also had a very warm relationship with a lot of african-american political leaders. so kind of unpacking the clinton relationship with the black community is very complicated. but it's been good enough that hillary clinton has been able to run up these huge margins, and she needs those margins again in michigan. i think one of the big questions about the debate tonight is, did bernie sanders do anything to

move some of the african-american vote the other way. and it was said in your earlier hour, i'm not sure he did. >> professor warren said that. we'll take a quick break. i want to hear from maria when we get back. we'll also have live reaction from a bar in flint to hear what michiganders think about all this. right after the break.

i believe the governor of this state should understand that his dereliction of duty was irresponsible. he should resign. >> i agree. the governor should resign, or be recalled. and we should -- [ applause ] >> -- support the efforts of citizens attempting to achieve that. >> we are live covering the democratic debate.

we turn to voter reaction live in flint, michigan, where tony is. go ahead, tony. >> hey, ari. i'm in the wooden keg, a bar across the street from the gm factory. on the same lot as the united auto workers. i've got two voters here with me who they care about the water crisis, absolutely, but the bigger issue for people here is jobs, jobs, jobs. they've been draining out of this community for decades. there used to be a chevrolet plant, that's gone. the three remaining gm plants are down about 50%. so we've got mike and charlie, guard buddies, bowling buddies, and on opposite sides of the political line here. mike, you're a third-generation auto worker. >> not just auto worker jobs. used to be people making good money building refrigerators and tvs. they're all overseas now. >> in 1980, if you can believe it, in the state of michigan in 1980, young workers were the leading earners in america.

total reversal today, 25% down. really hollowed out the middle class here. charlie works in the oil industry. he's on the republican side. what did you think of tonight's debate? >> i wish i could get more of a straight answer from both of the candidates. you know, i'm not really -- i'm an open-minded republican, but i can't get an honest answer from either of the democratic candidates. i'm waiting for one. >> trump is supposed to be the straight talker here. are you a trump guy? >> not really. no, i'm not. >> who do you like? >> honestly, i like john kasich. he's extremely presidential. and, you know, the last republican debate, all they did was set up there and name throw, call each other names. he was the only one that was presidential. i would like to see him win. >> mike, bernie sanders in a big op-ed this morning said that

nafta drained about 45,000 jobs out of state of michigan, 35,000 out of ohio. john kasich's home state. sound about right to you? >> i think it got 45,000 jobs out of flint. i think it's going to be -- come down to bernie sanders and donald trump. i think they're both bald, but one guy's trying to tell you he's not bald. >> we've got an oil industry worker here. fracking also came up. bernie sanders said no fracking period. how do you feel about that? >> i think we need to have an open mind, you know? the fracking industry, we just need to have an open mind. we don't need to back ourselves in a corner. >> that's about the scene here, ari. i just remembered, there's a sign outside this building that says, no foreign-made automobiles, absolutely none. they will be towed at the owner's expense.

it just occurred to me i think i rented a honda. so back to you. i better run. >> that's news you can use. and kudos to you for being able to officially drink on the job. sometimes it's necessary when you're talking to voters in a bar. more of the post-debate coverage right after this short break. zzzquil: a non-habit forming sleep-aid that's not for pain, just for sleep.

welcome back to the special

coverage of tonight's democratic debate in flint, michigan. we go right back to the spin room in flint where we have kristen welker and joy reid. kristen, i wonder where we could pick up where some of the conversation has been, including this tension between the sanders camp and clinton over the auto bail joit. that has been playing out post-debate in dueling press releases and on the internet. your view of who got the better side of that. >> well, i think secretary clinton had a strong exchange. listen, she was responding to senator sanders, who was criticizing her over her support of past trade deals like nafta. saying that it had cost jobs here. secretary clint pushing back on that, and saying, wait a minute, you opposed the auto bailout which ultimately saved millions of jobs here. so that was her response to his really sustained criticism of her over this issue of trade,

which, of course, resonates here in the industrial midwest. just a point about strategy, i've been talking to clinton campaign officials, they in the coming days could potentially use a number of these exchanges, because they are going to argue senator sanders kept going back to that issue of wall street, no matter what the question was. and again, they think that's going to bolster clinton's ar gunlt that he is somehow a single-issue candidate. but if you talk to the sanders vote, they think he had a very strong night. and he hit her hard on the issue of releasing her transcripts. she's saying, i'm not going to release my transcripts unless other transcripts release them. of course, senator sanders has the response that's quite familiar saying, here are my speeches. i asked the clinton campaign if they needed to release them. just to get this issue off of the table. it continues to be thorny. their response, they don't think this is resonating with voters. we'll have to see if that's true. again, voters here in michigan heading to the polls on tuesday. >> joy, the politics in that, the democratic strategists say

hillary clinton's released above and beyond what the law requires. meanwhile, donald trump doesn't have to give up his tax returns. donald trump, one of the president's long-term birth certificates, sort of what people -- they won't release his side. the clinton view here, which i think is embraced by increasing number of establishment democrats, why are these higher bar extra standards for her? >> yeah. i think there are these obama rules, about not being able to nominate for the supreme court just because of obama. there is a sense among clinton supporters there are these separate clinton rules, that she's held to a different standard than other candidates that no other candidate would be asked to do the things she's asked to do. the sanders campaign and her opponent have to seize on whatever they can. the idea is to defeat her, right? that's not surprising. i think that the sanders campaign is going to continue to hammer on that.

but i do think think what kristen pointed out is where clearly the sanders team hopes they can get traction against hillary clinton, and that is on this issue of trade, that issue of nafta. she was not the president, she was the first lady. but really zeroing in on the trade policies of the 1990s, and trying to take the 1990s away from hillary clinton. you'll notice tonight whenever the attacks came her way, hillary clinton pivoted back to the bill clinton economy. so i think what the sanders campaign hopes to do is say, if you want to own the bill clinton economy, we're going to make you own the policies that people now decided were not a good idea, things like nafta. i think that's where this will heat up. but going into tuesday, probably the part of the exchange that's going to get the most traction here in michigan is on the bailout. ari, that was such a big issue. >> that's what i thought. >> a prominent part of this debate. i think that's where this debate is going to be important going into tuesday. >> that's what jumped out to me. not just as a proud university of michigan graduate. thank you very much.

bringing in the panel here, it's a huge issue. you can finesse certain things in politics, if there was a debate in michigan on tuesday, maybe the rest of the country, they may go, not so much. michigan remembers. the $19 billion that came out for the auto companies, and auto jobs, came out of the larger t.a.r.p. funds. >> if they didn't know it, they know it now. >> they know that. in and out. at least active citizens voting. take a listen to bernie sanders here trying to hit on the wider issues of infrastructure. >> we need to rebuild our crumbling infrastructure, our water systems, our wastewater plants, our roads, and our bridges. the wealthiest country in the history of the world has got to get its priorities right. take care of the people. no more tax breaks for billionaires. >> i'll start by saying amen to that. >> you know, i think i got

tonight in a way that i hadn't gotten before. again, what these -- what people who love these candidates love about them. and bernie's whole theory is, we have this revolution, we take care of infrastructure, we take care of the environment, we're not going to have a flint. hillary clinton hears about flint, sends her people there, flies there, and this is also, i think, part of why she's doing so much better with the african-american community. it's a personal approach. i think senator sanders wants to solve the problems, but really keeps it all up here. and believes if we do the infrastructure, if we protect the environment, you're not going to have lead in your water so i'm not going to have to deal with it. but you kind of got to deal with it at this point. >> what about that, he sounds more like the professor and her the social worker? >> i think that's exactly what joan is saying. she was actually able to connect with the audience. when they were talking about the -- the father basically spoke about his daughter being shot.

she was able to bring it home and drive it down. when she started talking about race, she was able to personalize it. bernie sanders, it's as if the audience he's talking to is tangential. he cares, but he doesn't connect. he was talking about race, about 20 years ago, how you couldn't hail a cab in d.c. you still can't hail a cab in d.c. if you're a person of -- if you're african-american or latino here in d.c. it's almost a disconnect to the audience that he's actually really wanting to appeal to. at the same time doesn't quite understand the issues that everyday people are trying to tackle. >> judith, speak to that, if you would. the broader idea that sometimes bernie sanders, who has a deeply proven passion about economic inequality in this country, runs into this criticism, fair or not, that he is sort of shoehorning whatever question he gets, whether from the voter, media, et cetera, back into his --

>> wall street, wall street, wall street. i think people want to hear more than just wall street. if you're in michigan, one of the things that hillary clinton, i think, really had a home run on was the emergency manager situation, right? you're sitting in michigan where the whole state is under a dictatorship, or at least those cities that are predominantly african-american are. and so for her to really hone in on those issues that really are those local issues that people care about, and wall street kind of being this boogie man that not everyone can relate to, he misses the mark. he's got to get better on talking to people and listening to them, and really understanding where they're coming from and touching hearts. >> right. >> and minds. >> e.j., it's not just framing. how do you get from a to b and click on something people care about. it goes to what the problem and solution is. in other words, there are folks who say the problem in flint isn't really about wall street,

or national campaign finance reform. it is about local political power, and a series of events in michigan, where things that happen in black communities, or black majority communities seem to get less attention than they would if they happened in other more affluent places. >> right. i mean, that's clearly the case. and i think in this issue, you had the issue of political power itself, where the state took over a lot of communities. and when there was so much pressure to cut budgets. let's face it, one of the reasons the flint crisis happened is they thought they could provide water, they could save a little bit of money by going to another water supply. but there was something else i thought that was really enlightening about the debate tonight. you saw it both on the bailout, and on the export/import bank. it's something that often splits liberals and democrats in congress. it's, can you use government

money to help companies not because you necessarily want to help companies, but because you care a lot about jobs. often in the case of many of the bank jobs and auto bailout, union jobs. and they just had a fundamental, philosophical disagreement about that. it goes to what you were talking about earlier, hillary clinton can defend her position by saying, real people here benefit from this. whether we like the theory of it or not. and bernie sanders was in a sense right on the theory from the left point of view saying, we just shouldn't shovel money to all these corporations. it was a fascinating clear difference. >> right. one of the other big new things that happened, a lot of the debates have repetition, but bernie sanders really opening up about his faith, and his family's personal history in ways we had never seen, at least on a national stage before. we're going to play that for you and talk about it with the whole panel right after this break.

welcome back to the special coverage of tonight's democratic debate in flint, michigan. i'm excited to get everyone's view basically on one of the standout moments. i mentioned this earlier before the break. bernie sanders is a jewish american. he runs on his policy ideas. he talks a lot of economic inequality. he rarely speaks personally about religion. tonight we heard him speak morist matly about his jewish past than usual. it was a really interesting moment. right at the tail end of the debate. we want to play it for you and talk about it. here it is. >> i am very proud to be jewish, and being jewish is so much of what i am. look, my father's family was wiped out by hitler in the holocaust. i know about what crazy and radical and extremist politics

means. i learned that lesson as a tiny, tiny child when my mother would take me shopping, and we would see people working in stores who had numbers on their arms, because they were in hitler's concentration camp. >> e.j., we don't usually hear bernie sanders talk about the forced tattoos on the arms of jews who lived through the concentration camps, not to mention the many who were murdered, as he mentions his own family. it was a striking moment. as i say, an unusual one, and one prompted by a question in a year where we've had a lot of talk about religion and division in this country. your thoughts on that moment, e.j., first? >> i thought that moment, and also hillary clinton's answer to who she prayed for were two of the most moving moments we've seen in the debate. and it's kind of ironic or paradoxical that the republicans are supposed to be the religious party. but you had these two very

personal expressions of faith. i thought that, first of all, i think this is great and constructive. i thought sanders was very moving. and he's not someone who wears his faith on his sleeve. he seems fundamentally a secular progressive. but he was saying tonight, don't let that fool you, being jewish is important to me. when hillary talked about who she prayed for, there's a lot of talk about her authenticity. one of the most authentic things about her is being a social justice methodist. and you're hearing a little bit more of that as the campaign goes forward. and i hope for her sake, but also for the sake of religious dialogue, she talks about it a lot more. >> judith. >> yes, it's interesting, i was watching twitter, and there was a firestorm about separation of church and state. and i think, i agree with e.j. quite frankly, this was an

opportunity for them to get personal. as we just talked about bernie kind of being the professor. it was good to hear him talk about his faith and how central it is to him and hillary clinton the same. >> did he talk about his faith? maria, i want to get you in as well. talk about church and state. the way that bernie does this, even in his unusual moment as this, is not citing jewish teachings or the bible, tora, any of that. what he's talking about is the history of persecution of jews, who, of course, were persecuted whether they believed or not. that was the nature of that kind of murder and discrimination. maria, again, his answer, again, yields for those listening closely, the fact that he looks at this as an important -- in his words, an important part of life and history, but not necessarily reciting any teachings. >> but he makes himself much more accessible, and says that his upbringing actually impacts

his world view. i would actually counter when he was asked about racial division in this country, and racial bias, he should have actually started with that and say, i actually understand what it means to grow up in poverty. i actually understand what it means to be discriminated against through this lens. i think he would have been able to connect much more. those are very real experiences. but i also think that both hillary and bernie sanders missed the opportunity to also talk about the massive division that we have right now when it comes to muslim-americans in this country. dearborn, michigan, is home to the largest arab-american community in this country and no one talked about it. despite the fact that you have an increasing shadow around it in this debate. >> such an important point. i want to bring in tony, who has been in michigan. and beyond what you all are going to talk about, i wonder if that's relevant. we've got talk on the republican side about a temporary ban of muslims coming into the country. michigan as maria mentioned has a lot of muslim-americans and muslim immigrants.

what do you have out there? >> it is highly relevant, believe it or not. i haven't heard much about it in flint itself. but yesterday i took a trip up to a shooting range, about an hour and a half, 98% white, militia country. michigan has the most militia per capita in america. they strongly believe in border security and strongly support donald trump's immigration policies. i found a man wearing this hat. you know what he believes when it comes to immigration. he's a supporter of that policy, a temporary ban on muslim immigration. it is highly relevant. it's something that could in a close race, in november, turn this traditionally blue state into a red category state, ari. >> thank you, tony, out there in the bar. joan, your final thought on this discussion, though. the fact that that wasn't mentioned as much.

>> yeah, it is disturbing. i think they missed an opportunity. i was a little uncomfortable with the length of the questioning. i think senator sanders did a great job so it probably helped him. on the other hand, i felt there was a sort of, what kind of jew u element to the question. >> nudging. >> a little nudging. >> a little too much nudging. >> a little too much nudging. you know, i would like to see those kept more separate. as a catholic, i care about religion, but i just felt like it was too much time for such a topic. >> or perhaps, i want to bring back e.j., leave it to the voters. it's a question here, as i say, as a member of the press, what the press pushes in these high-impact media events. >> what kind of jew are you is not a relevant question to the voters. what is relevant is what bernie also said when he cited the golden rule.

and he was asked that amazing question, what does god mean. he immediately moved to god means the golden rule. i care about your children, you care about my children. and it's worth noting that one of the more remarkable events of the campaign was bernie's visit to liberty university. the last place you would expect him to be was liberty university. and he really gave a lecture on what it means to be a social justice person of faith. and i thought it was one of the best events of his campaign. >> yeah. i remember that. that speech, though, again, was vintage bernie, all about ideas and quoting different things. it was not personal. it's this thing in american life where we're asking people to be personal, when some of them are saying, it's not about me. i'm trying to offer what i want the world to look like, which he certainly has done, whether people buy into it or not. i want to thaunk judith and e.j. for joining us tonight. the rest of the panel stays. we have more when we come back.

a few final thoughts on the big democratic debate in flint, michigan. you're watching msnbc, the place for politics.

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i just want to make one point. we have our differences. and we get into vigorous debate about issues. but compare the substance of this debate with what you saw on the republican stage last week. >> hillary clinton striking a chord of unity there at tonight's democratic debate in flint, michigan. this is our special live coverage. a lot of other things did happen outside of michigan today. our panel's still with us but we want to show you other result. in maine while this debate was going on we got our results in 64-36 is how well bernie sanders about winning by a wide mar gyp. he tends to do better in caucus state. 30 delegates up for grabs there.

on the republican side, there was also puerto rico where marco rubio had his best showing, by far, ever this race. 74% there in a walloping defeat over donald trump there who had 14%. 23 dell deviates at stake there. bringing back our panel here. i want to get right to it. we've been talking all two hours. what are the takeaways after people wake up after a lot of debates? we talked about i think some of the important stuff on policy and substance but politically it didn't seem this is the kind of debate that is going to change fundamentals of this race where bernie sanders has a base, is hitting key issues, but does not currently look like he can put together the constituency or the delegate math to truly challenge hillary clinton. >> i agree with you. i also felt that clip where we showed, she's ready to hug him, to say we have more in common than separates us, and he was like, not so fast, in his reply.

she doesn't want to act like it's over but she would like it to be over. he's letting her know it's not. >> i think there are two things to keep in mind. one is audience. were both candidates aiming for a michigan audience, a rust belt state audience, or a national audience? >> it melt like michigan. >> michigan and the rust belt states. illinois, wisconsin, ohio, et cetera. i think that's the criteria by which to judge their performance tonight. even more important, there is a lot of discussion about the '90s. and if you take a step back and think about what was the democratic party like in the '90s? run essentially by the dlc, not with any on the ground organizing or movement politics particularly from black america. if you compare that to the moment we're in now, this is a very different democratic party that we are seeing now with both these candidates who are both making reference to the '90s. but the democratic party has moved, i would argue, to the left since the '90s of dog whistling from both political parties. >> to dorian's point, the people

voting right now in the democratic primaries, according to the exit polls, self-identify as more liberal than they were previously. >> absolutely. but i think the biggest specter of the night was really donald trump. he wasn't on stage but his language of basically cutting off trade, really closing off the borders, really appeal to a sector of reagan democrats that may actually pull away from the primary. michigan is an open primary. so that is the specter no one is talking about but i think that is going to be really relevant come tuesday. >> you think what, that someone would potentially vote for trump, siphoning off what would be democratic participation? >> exactly right. essentially what tony was saying earlier, michigan is the largest militia per capita before texas. if you have individuals that are not comfortable with changing demographics, a lot of ethnic white democrats that historically would vote for hillary or bernie sanders but are getting pulled into this

idea of closing off the border, feeling they are frustrated, and don't really understand the changing demographics of their country, but at the same time feeling that the democrats are not answering their wishes, can easily be pulled into a trump column. >> right. great point. that's what goes to the organization of this. the open primaries have a lot more of that potential cross-over. we hear a lot about the trump/sanders crossover, whether that's the case or not. i appreciate it. you've been part of the after party the whole night right here and i appreciate it. that's their fourth and fifth cups of coffee there. this has been a msnbc special post-debate coverage, thank you for watching, see you tomorrow.

this sunday, have the republicans found their anti-trump? ted cruz has himself a super saturday and donald trump, who won louisiana and kentucky, seems to agree. >>