on the campus of ohio state university. senator, stay safe on the trail. and stay with us here at msnbc, the place for politics. you don't want to go anywhere. we'll see you later. have a good night. this sunday, the republican establishment has tried persuasion -- >> mr. trump is a con man, a fake. >> it's tried school yard tactics. >> and you know what they say about men with small hands. >> and still donald trump keeps winning. but last night more ugliness at a rally. >> as trump warns of violence if he's denied the nomination. >> i think you'd have riots. iriots. >> but can he be stopped at a convention? john kasich, the last establishment candidate standing, joins me.

plus the republicans say no hearings for merrick garland. democrats cry foul. >> we will continue to observe the biden rule. >> what can't they do their jobs? >> both senate leaders mitch mcconnell and harry reid exclusively join me. and do you like buzzer beaters like this one from friday night? well, we've got the trump-a-tology buzzer beater possibilities for what could be a wild republican national convention. joining me are, jose diaz-balart, the atlantic's molly ball, joy ann reid, and robert costa of "the washington post." welcome to sunday, it's "meet the press." >> announcer: from nbc news in washington, this is "meet the press" with chuck todd. good sunday morning. let's agree on this much about

the 2016 campaign, the rise of donald trump is basically paralleled the fall of the republican establishment. the more the establishment cries never trump, the more the voters snub them. on tuesday night in spite of millions of dollars of negative ads and high-profile criticism by mitt romney and others trump won four of five primaries and he nearly tripled his delegate lead over ted cruz. establishment republicans are desperate to use any means necessary to deny trump in part because of scenes like this. last night in tucson, arizona, this anti- -- an anti-trump protester was set upon and beaten up as he was being escorted out of the rally. police arrested and charged the man who assaulted the protester that you see there in that video. and then this was the scene earlier in the day yesterday in arizona where protesters blocked a road to a trump rally.

so the rise of trumpism and the undoing of the republican establishment has been years in the making. it began in 2007 when conservatives killed president bush's push for immigration reform. in 2008 when establishment favorite john mccain was clob r clobbered by barack obama. in 2010 the tea party revolt. the party lost control of the primary process but they won so many seats they choz to ride the tiger instead of fighting. more recently the falls of cantor, boehner, and ep the prevention of kevin mccarthy getting a promotion all at the hands of a resurgent populist conservative movement. now many in the party are trying to stop donald trump, but how? >> to go forward you have the establishment, they don't know what they're doing. they have no clue. >> the stop trump movement is limping forward, but though republican opponents have the will to defeat the front-runner, it's not clear they have a game plan. there have been meetings, a con fab in washington two blocks from the white house calling for a unity ticket, another meeting

of big donors in florida, and new ads from outside groups. >> ask donald trump why he sides with hillary clinton -- >> but stop trump groups spent $13 million in primaries this week and trump nearly tripled his delegate lead. >> my numbers went up. >> still, many republican voters are not comfortable with trump. 29% of primary voters in florida said they would seriously consider a third-party candidate. so did 39% in battleground north carolina and 45% in battleground ohio. but what's the alternative? >> for me to win, i have to win 78% of the remaining delegates. >> mitt romney is encouraging republicans to vote for cruz. >> are you sure he's a mormon? are we sure? he choked. he choked. it was so sad. >> but only to force an open convention. >> a vote for john kasich is a vote for donald trump. >> but john kay sick sich is on stepping up efforts to challenge cruz in utah. now many trump opponents are

turning to the convention hoping to deprive trump of a clear 1237 delegate majority. >> nothing has changed other than the perception that it's more likely to become an open convention than we thought before. >> trump warns of violence if a floor fight produces another nominee. >> i think you'd have riots. i think you'd have riots. >> but for many republicans denial and anger, bargaining and depression are turning into acceptance. >> if mr. trump does become the president of the united states, he's going to need a republican majority to govern, and i think he would welcome working with republican majorities in the house and the senate. >> that's an admission that the republican establishment, long on life support, may officially be dead. just a reminder, john cornyn is a ted cruz supporter we think. joining me now i'm joined by the man -- by the men who ran the last two republican election campaigns, stuart stephens and

steve schmidt. gentlemen, welcome to you both. stu, let me start with you. prior to last tuesday, you wrote there was still time to stop trump. do you still believe that a week later? >> sure. 40% of the people haven't voted, so we got upset in 2000 when they closed the polls in florida. i think with 40% still out there we have to say -- i think it's going to be very difficult for anybody else everyone donald trump to get to 1237, but there's credible scenarios out there with 40% of the vote out there that you could easily have donald trump, you know, 1,000, 1100 votes and ted cruz up there around 900, 950. we have done this before. this was the ronald reagan stra strategy in 1976 against a sitting republican president. >> most expedient way to do this would be to rally around ted cruz, and that seems to be something that washington republicans can't bring themselves to do. >> well, look, ted cruz is exactly right, a vote at this

point for john kasich is a vote for donald trump. >> so why isn't the kaf valli rallying around cruz? >> trump is on his way to securing 1237 delegates. if he gets to 1237 delegates he'll be nominated on the first ballot. if he does not, it goes to an open convention. anything, of course, can happen, but if you look at the amount of new voters coming into the process this year, for them to be denied what they view as a small "d" democratic process -- in fact these parties though are the vessels we advance democracy are not themselves democratic small "d" institutions. so as the rules would play out and there's a denial of it, dire consequences for the party and sfor for the senate majority. >> there is a way to do this, and stuart you were on the receiving end of some delegate manipulation. ron paul never won any states but he came to the convention

with ma joojorities of delegate. this was the iowa results in 2012. santorum and romney. ron paul had a majority of the delegates by the time the convention rolled around. louisiana a similar finding. ron paul had 6% of the vote in the primary but 40% of the delegates once he got to the convention. and this happened last night in louisiana. there is a way to elect delegates that are more supportive of cruz if you're the cruz campaign to deny trump this but then it does undermine what steve was talking about. >> i think what we're going to have here is a period where the candidates are really going to be looked at very closely, more closely than they have been before because there's fewer of them. you're going to have a different threshold for it. i think there's going to be a lot of pressure on donald trump to really behave as a front-runner, as someone who could lead a party. look, had the democrats gone through this and john edwards was leading and we discovered this about john edwards, people

would have had second thoughts about going into a party with john edwards. i think it's a real test and we'll have to see how these candidates perform under this test. >> steve, it seems as if and you will see, mitch mcconnell is sticking by the nominee. paul ryan, who some people believe right now is the titular head of the republican party given his position, he's getting criticized this morning by a conservative communist from "the times" going where are you? you can make a difference but he seems hesitant. >> look, for a lot of the republican leaders they may well come to a moment where it's country over party given their -- >> but we're not there yet? >> -- sensibilities about a prospective trump nomination. you have people saying anybody but trump but they're also saying i'm going to support the republican nominee for president. they've not yet crossed that rubicon. as we go through the next couple weeks of contests. as donald trump i suspect continues to win at the proportion he has been winning at and he moves closer to 1,237,

it will be interesting to tee what the leaders of the republican party say. now, what the consequence of it would be for them to peel off the republican nomination is to forfeit the election to hillary clinton. there will be multiple supreme court nominations made by her if she's the next president of the united states, and, of course, also the republican senate majority hangs in the balance here, and it's tough to see how senate republicans maintain that majority if the 35% to 40% of these trump voters are feeling disenfranchised from the process and they take a walk. >> okay. but then you have 10% to 15% of the party, maybe more of that, look at those numbers that i showed in the exit polls in battlegrounds ohio, florida, and north carolina. these were republican primary voters, stuart, who said they'd prefer is third-party option than pick between trump and clinton. >> trump is a disaster. politics ultimately is about addition, not subtraction, and the whole idea of trump is not that he's going to take these romney voters and add to them.

he's losing romney voters. look at republican hispanics. there's not tons of hispanics in the republican party. he already has a 60% negative with republican hispanics. romney won white women by 12 points. it's going to be very tough for any nominee to do better than that, but it's going to be necessary for him to do better against hillary clinton. >> steve -- >> he's going to do worse. >> we ran the numbers on the exit polls using the exit polls from 2012 in ohio and wisconsin just on the white vote and assuming all things were equal, and here is wisconsin first. trump would have to increase the romney share by 5 percentage points, go from 51% of the white vote which romney got and still lost the state. 56% of the white vote is what trump would need to flip it. in ohio, to the flip ohio, he would have to move the romney white vote number from 57% to 61%. this assumes that the nonwhite vote doesn't move at all. this seems like an impossibility. >> i'm not sure it is an impa .

impossibility, but he is an asymmetrical candidate. he's so unconventional we've never seen anything like it. when you began the program you talked about the rise of the movement that led us to that but it's more expansive than that. we live in an era where trust has collapsed in every institution in the country with the exception of the military, and it's not without cause. an era of systemic fraud in business, in politics, in the culture, in sports, in religion. all of it accumulating to this moment in time where someone has come forward with profound communication skills offering easy answers to people who through these wave elections have seen no changes. >> stuart, last point. >> 37% of the people don't trust hillary clinton. huge opportunity for republicans. we're turning to a guy who has 27% of the people don't trust him. he's one of the few people in america that is trusted less than hillary clinton. >> you mean only 27% trust.

>> only 27% trust donald trump. he's trusted less than hillary clinton which is hard to do. >> i do try -- i'm trying to figure out what turnout is going to look like if the two candidates are the two most unpopular among swing voters, hillary clinton and donald trump. i'm going to tef it there. stuart, steve, appreciate you both. one man still in the race is ohio governor john kasich whose win in his home state kept his hopes alive. john kasich joined me yesterday from salt lake city. why are you in utah? and i ask that because if you didn't campaign in utah and ted cruz won 50% of the vote, then you deny donald trump any delegates, which actually helps your path to getting to cleveland in a contested convention. >> hey, chuck, chuck, look, i'm in utah you know what? because i'm running for president. because i want people to understand what is a good, positive message with a record

of accomplishment -- >> but do you want to win? >> but, chuck, i'm going to compete across the country and tell people who i am and let the chips fall where they may, and let me also tell you, no one, no one is going to that convention with enough delegates. i will have more delegates moving in there that will give me momentum and then the delegates are going to decide who can win in the fall because the other guys can't win in the fall. hillary will be president. and secondly, i have got the record, the experience, and the vision and the ability to bring people together to be a good president. that's why i'm doing this. >> we saw the evidence though of what happens when there's three people in and two anti-trump candidates split the vote. missouri and illinois, donald trump cleaned up on delegates. if you go about this in new york and pennsylvania and some of these other states, you and cruz could end up handing more delegates to trump inadvertently. >> well, maybe ted ought to get out because he can't win in the fall and maybe these people that are hot on that ought to tell him to do it.

they try to tell me to get out of the race how many times, chuck? and now they -- >> quite a few. >> they should be thanking me for staying in because if trump had won ohio, it would be over. i have a record of accomplishment, a record of bringing people together, a vision for the future of this country, and guess what? in the grassroots people are getting it. now, they didn't get it because, frankly, you put me on the tube a lot, but trump got, you know, $1.8 billion worth of free media. i got like none. >> not all of it was positive. >> now people are starting to hear me and we're starting to rise. >> if you thought your candidacy were helping trump, not hurting him, would you get out? >> chuck, i'm running for president. this isn't a parlor game of who gets this or who gets that -- >> but you're stuck with a parlor game. i understand that but you're stuck having to play a parlor game because your only -- >> no. >> -- path is the convention. that's the ultimate parlor game. >> i am not playing a parlor

game. the convention is an extension of the process of nominating somebody. i was there in '76 when reagan challenged the sitting president. they didn't like him doing it either, but you know what? his vision, his message mattered. listen, nobody is going to that convention with enough delegates and at the end -- do you know why i'll get picked? because i can win in the fall and, secondly, because i have the experience and the record to lead this country. >> you know -- >> and, chuck, if i didn't think that, i wouldn't be running. >> yesterday -- earlier in the week you totally ruled out ever being donald trump's running mate. >> under no circumstance. what are you people, kidding me? >> what about ted cruz? >> no. i'm not going to be anybody's -- >> that's just as shermanesque with ted cruz as donald trump -- >> absolutely, chuck. you know what? you folks got to get -- look, you're a great guy, i like you very much, but you guys, you pundits got to get out of washington. you don't understand me. you know the problem is that a lot of people just can't figure

that how could this guy mean what he says? how is it that he's no different than what he appears? you can't figure that out. people are like, what's his calculation? what's this or that? folks, i don't have time for that. >> as you know, ted cruz is going to use two issues to try to wedge if it's even a delegate fight and that's common core and immigration. >> well, let me just say this, i'll tell what you common core is in my state. our state board of education has approved high standards and our local school boards are the one that is devise the curriculum. we need high standards for our children in the 21st century. i am for shipping all the federal education programs out of washington to the states, so, look, i'm telling you what we do in ohio and at the end of the day presidents should not run k through 12. secondly, on immigration, i do not believe it is practical nor doable to search in the neighborhoods and yank the people who came here illegally who have not committed a crime since they've been here and ship them out of this country. that is not going to happen.

the plan that i support finishing the border, making sure you have a guest worker program, and having the 11.5 million who came here illegally who have not committed a crime pay back tackck taxes, pay a fi. they can then have a path to legalization and not citizenship. any other position than that just isn't going to work, chuck. i hate to tell you that, it isn't going to work. >> you talk about yourself as a consensus builder, so i'm curious, what do you make of the republican senate strategy on the supreme court pick, merrick garland. should the senate at least hold hearings? >> you know, chuck, look, this is one i'm not going to actually answer directly because i don't think the senate is waiting there with bated breath for my opinion. the senators can meet with this gentleman and ultimately if i'm president, which i think we have a good shot at being, maybe he will be under consideration for the supreme court.

i don't know. but they ought to meet with him. show him that amount of respect. >> what about hearings? >> i don't think -- look, the hearings aren't going to mean anything, chuck, but that's up to them to decide. ask them. >> all right. governor john kasich, i will leave it there. good luck -- >> always a pleasure. >> stay safe on the trail. >> and you know, if it's sunday, it must be "meet the press." >> you can always get extra time by saying that. following that interview with john kasich, he walked back his comments on merrick garland saying he will not consider merrick garland as a potential replacement to justice scalia if he's elected president. coming up, we got a lot more on the 2016 race, but first the fight over the supreme court. both senate leaders mitch mcconnell and harry reid exclusively right here on "meet the press." and later, the debate over hillary clinton's speaking style. >> i've never had more faith in our future, and if we work together -- >> we've heard the criticism before, she sounds shrill, she

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compare.com. saving humanity from high insurance rates. it is time for our "meet the press" data download. we wanted to share some brackets of our own. i'm not here to brag about middle tennessee state and that pick. instead, three scenarios for winning the republican

nomination. in bracket number one it's donald trump receiving a bye while ted cruz and john kasich fight it out for the rest of the primary season. end up splitting the anti-trump vote, but trump is able to come away with the majority he needs and hits that magic number of 1237 and he wins the nomination. game over. in bracket number two, we start with the same standings. but in this scenario cruz catches fire and wins enough delegates to deny trump the 1237 that he needs. so we move to an overtime and an open convention. trump delegates eventually abandon trump and cruz emerges as the conservative compromise choice in a buzzer beater. in bracket number three, this is our cinderella story. it looks familiar at the beginning, cruz, kasich, trump, they all compete. and, again, trump ends up short of his magic number of 1237. and again we head to an open convention, but in this scenario we go to jor time and we go to

multiple ballots. we go to double overtime. the nomination ends up going to, how about that, somebody not running. probably house speaker paul ryan. more possible than you might think. so who is going to have their one shining moment in cleveland this july? it's something that we have a whole rest of a primary season to figure out. we'll be back in a moment with the battle over the supreme court and two the leaders of the senate, mitch mcconnell and harry reid. nate, mitch mcconnel harry reid. >> announcer: if you miss "meet the press," catch highlights in under two minutes. brought to you thank you. imagine if the things you bought every day... ...earned you miles to get to the places you really want to go. with the united mileageplus explorer card, you'll get a free checked bag, two united club passes, priority boarding,

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welcome back. the expression elections have consequences usually refers to the fact that presidents get to choose who sit on the supreme court. well, when president obama named merrick garland this week to be his nomination to replace antonin scalia, republican senate leader mitch mcconnell immediately announced republicans would not even give garland a hearing. mcconnell said the choice should be made by the next president. well, democratic senate leader harry reid immediately criticized mcconnell's move saying the senate was abdicating its responsibilities. i spoke to both mitch mcconnell and harry reid and i began with

a conversation with senator reid that took place yesterday. let me start with a piece of sound on judges that you said over ten years ago. let me play it and get you to react on the other side. >> duties of the snunited state senate is set forth in the constitution. nowhere does it say the senate has a duty to give presidential nominees a vote. >> and yet 11 years later you wrote this. the senate's constitutional duty to give a fair and timely hearing and a floor vote to the president's supreme court nominees has remained inviolable. i guess i'm confused. which is it? what has changed from 2005 when you said there was nothing in the constitution that said a vote to 2016? >> this is the same thing as you guys talk about the biden rule. there is no biden rule. what happened then was worked out. it was an effort to try to get something done. what i have tried to do during my entire career in congress and in the senate is to get rid of

obstruction and what we found the last eight years especially with republicans, boehner first, mcconnell, is everything was obstructed. that was what they set out to do and they've done a good job of it, but we have always tried, and i have been part of that for many years, to get rid of obstruction. i don't believe in it. >> well, then what happened in 2005? i can quote you during the estrada hearing. you said there's no reason to minutes wor mince words. we're not going to allow an up or down vote. that was a form of obstruction. >> that man had a full hearing. all we asked was -- you worked in the white house. you wrote a lot of legal opinions. we're entitled to see them. that was reasonable. and the white house instructed this good man not to do it. it was unfair to him, but that's what happened. we and the american people are entitled to what he had written in those legal opinions. >> but i guess i'm going to back to what part of -- what has

changed other than the political party affiliation of the white house? >> what has changed is you have to look at what has happened. we have never held up a supreme court nomination. since 1900 in a lame duck session, there have been six, they've all been approved -- >> wait a minute. ali alito, did you a filibuster for alee that and roberts. >> where is alito today? >> it failed but that's the point. you can draw all these extracurricular activities that took place but look what happened. look at two very famous case that is came before the senate. bork, he didn't get enough votes in committee. neither did thomas. but we brought them to the floor anyway. we met with them. we had hearings, and they were brought to the floor. they could have been killed in the committee. we believed there should be a full vote and that's what we

should do now. i don't know why mcconnell has done this to us senators. he's marching these men and women over a cliff and i don't think they're going to go. he said we're not going to meet with him, not going to hold hearings, not going to have a vote but that facade is breaking as we speak. we now have eight or nine senators who said, i guess we will meet with him and we had a senator the day before yesterday who said let's man up here. we are elected to take votes. we should be voting and there's going to be a break through here. i told -- >> how are you going to get a hearing? mitch mcconnell has said no hearing at all. >> mitch mcconnell has said a lot of things but his republican senators are not going to go over that cliff with him. they're not going to do it. i said this is going to break, you're going to become a supreme court justice. in addition to the people agreeing to meet, we have republican senators, senators that are veterans senators saying maybe what we should do is do it in the lame duck.

orrin hatch, lindsey graham -- >> four years from now if you're in the fourth year of a republican presidency, you don't think the democrats should do whatever it takes to prevent that republican president from appointing a supreme court justice in a presidential year before the election? >> not only do i think they shouldn't do it, they wouldn't do it. whoever is elected president has -- is elected for four years. obama was elected for four years. he filled that duty he had to the american people. he was re-elected. he has an obligation to do his job for four years, not three years. senators have an obligation to do their constitutional duty -- >> do you blame republicans though for wanting to do whatever it takes -- this is going to change the makeup of the court, and they believe this is worth fighting for. do you blame them for doing this? >> absolutely. when you have orrin hatch who was a chairman of the judicial committee, now is chairman of

the finance committee, said you could not pick a fine er nomine than garland. why didn't you do that he's complaining to obama. of course i blame them. of course i do. here is a fine man -- >> you don't think they should fight to prevent the change in the makeup as hard as they possibly can? >> it's not been doing in the past. excuses are lame. they are going to wind up as a result of this foolishness, they're going to lose senate seats they shouldn't have lost. i'm glad they're doing it, but mcconnell is leading his senators over the cliff and i'm telling everybody that is watching this, the senators aren't going to allow that. >> a little earlier this morning i was joined by the republican senate majority leader mitch mcconnell. senator mcconnell, welcome back to "meet the press," sir. >> good morning. glad to be with you. i'm going to start with something you said in 2008 about judicial vacancies. here it is. >> our democratic colleagues continually talk about the so-called thurman rule under which the senate supposedly

stops confirming judges in a presidential election year. the obsession with this rule that doesn't exist is just an excuse for our colleagues to run out the clock on qualified nominees who are waiting to fill badly needed vacancies. >> i started my interview with harry reid with a similar quote from him back during the bush years too. essentially, you guys have changed places in your position on supreme court vacancies, and it seems to me the only difference is the political party affiliation of the white house. >> well, there was no supreme court vacancy in 2008 and that's what we're talking about here, chuck. you have to go back 80 years to find the last time a vacancy on the supreme court created during a presidential election year was filled. you have to go back to grover cleveland in 1888 to find the last time a presidential appointment was confirmed by a senate of the opposite party when the vacancy occurred in a presidential year. we're talking about the supreme court here. the election is under way. and what we are using is the

biden rule, 1992 when joe biden was chairman of the judiciary committee. he made the point that a vacancy had it occurred in 1992 would not be filled. harry reid when he was leader in 2005 pointed out the senate had no obligation under the constitution to give a nominee a vote, and chuck schumer in 2007, 18 months before bush's term was up, said if a vacancy occurred -- >> but, senator, in each of those occasions republicans at the time criticized those senate democrats for having that position. and, frankly, that's what we're seeing here. if feels like there's hypocrisy on both sides. democrats essentially don't want to confirm a supreme court justice if a republican is doing it and republicans don't want to confirm a supreme court justice if a democrat is doing it. isn't that what we're staring at here? >> nobody has been entirely consistent so let's just look at the history of it. it hasn't happened in 80 years and it won't happen this year.

the principle involved when an election is under way as joe biden was talking in 1992, when an election is under way, the american people are about to weigh in on who is going to be the president, and that's the person, whoever that may be, who ought to be making this appointment. >> you said something though about three months ago, you said this, my view is just because there's an election coming up doesn't mean you're not supposed to do anything. you even voted we've had an election every two years right on schedule since 1788. when does a president lose his authority to make appointments in your view? >> oh, well, we've been -- the senate has been quite active. we had an incredible year last year. this year we're going to have another year, we've got a great chance of passing every single appropriation bill for the first time since 1994. the senate is not doing nothing during this election season. but we're not giving lifetime appointments to this president on the way out the door to change the supreme court for the next 25 or 30 years. >> let me get you to respond to

a criticism that george will has that's all over papers today, and you have probably seen it, but he doesn't much care for your strategy here. he writes this, conservative george will, the republican party's incoherent response to the supreme court vacancy is a partisan reflex in search of a justifying principle. the multiplicity of republican rationalizations for the refusal to even consider merrick b. garland radiates insincerity. what do you see to george will? >> well, i just disagree with him. i think when you have got a nominee that moveon.org is extremely enthusiastic about and multiple articles pointing out that if judge merrick were, in fact, confirmed he would move the court dramatically to the left, i just disagree with george will. i don't think it's a good idea to move the court to the left but that's not really the issue here. it's not the person. it's the principle. who ought to make this lifetime appointment? it's the next president, not this one. >> are you completely ruling out a lame duck scenario if hillary clinton wins the november election? >> yes.

we're not going to be confirming a judge to the supreme court under this -- >> even if it means hillary clinton nominates somebody even more liberal than merrick garland? >> well, it would be hard to be more liberal than merrick garland, but it's my hope that she will not be making the appointment. >> let me ask you about who could be facing her in the fall. are you comfortable with donald trump as your party's standard bearer? >> well, i'm going to support the nominee. i have got an obligation to my colleagues and to my party to support the nominee and i fully intend to do that. >> what did you mean when you told them privately you could drop him like a hot rock? do you think it's appropriate for any of your republican senators to run against him if necessary? >> well, i think we've got a bunch of senate races in purple states that are very competitive and each of those races will be crafted very differently to try to appeal to the people in new hampshire or pennsylvania or ohio, wisconsin, nevada, colorado, illinois. every one of those races are

going to be individual standalone contests with people who we think have a great chance of winning in november. >> and if that means running away from donald trump, that should be their strategy? >> oh, i think every campaign will have a different strategy to appeal to different kinds of voters that we have in different parts of the country. >> are you going -- and one other final thing, donald trump is having a meeting with various republican leaders tomorrow in washington before he speaks to aipac. are you going to participate in that meeting, sir? >> no. i'm in kentucky. he did call me last week. we had a good conversation. >> all right. senator mitch mcconnell, i will leave it there. thanks for coming on, sir. appreciate it. >> thank you, chuck. when we come back, when male pundits say hillary clinton is shrill or yells too much, is that legitimate criticism or is it sexist? ♪ ♪

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welcome back. take a listen to a moment from hillary clinton's victory speech on tuesday night when she swept all five primaries. >> i've never had more faith in our future, and if we work together, if we go forward in this campaign, if we win in november, i know our future will be brighter tomorrow than yesterday. thank you, all, so very much. >> so some people saw and heard, they heard a presidential candidate celebrating a huge night in which she took a giant step towards winning the democratic presidential nomination, but when others heard it, many of whom were men, when they heard her speak, they called her a bit shrill, loud, hyperaggressive, some even said she lacked grace, and then there was the admonition that clinton should smile more which many women found particularly insulting. when we come back, we're going to talk to the panel about whether male candidates would be subject to the same type of

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welcome back. the panel is here to talk about 2016. jose, molly ball, joy ann reid, and robert costa. i want to pick up on what i teased before. here is what dana milbank wrote. the criticism is the same as in 2008, she doesn't kiconnect, sh seems shrill.

how does she inspire people? that in some ways and this is a male writing this but in some ways that she has -- that she's being graded on a different set of rules in her style, that this holds her back, fair? >> i think it's very difficult to parse what qualities are specific to hillary clinton and what qualities have to do with her gender. i have locked into some of the political science research. there's been a criticism for example that women are more subject to commentary on their appearance. the political science has studied and it's not true. men and women get comments on their appearance at the same rate and it doesn't hurt women to have comments on their appearance. a neutral woman a made up woman in a political science experiment is viewed a little more trustworthy than a man because they're seen as outsiders. not seen as being part of the system, and there's some positive stereotyping about women. but we've never had a woman

president so i think there's not a mold there. there's not a stereotype you can fit hillary clinton into and that makes it difficult. >> and i think particularly older women, joy, see some of the criticism against hillary clinton and truly get -- here is barbara mikulski. she said many of we women feel there is a double standard. what's being said about hillary is what women have heard for centuries, too loud, too aggressive, to pushy. senator feinstein, i think women go through a magnifying glass that men do not. look at trump. trump about braggadocio, talk about shouting, demeaning, insulting, it's all there. >> i think out on the campaign trail, particularly when i was in midwest when i heard a lot of people who sound like hillary clinton, who have that same midwestern twang. you can almost pick them out whether they like hillary clinton or not, particularly if they're women over the age of 60. this really bothers them. this sense that she's being judged differently because they're also taking in their experiences at the office where if you're a woman boss, you're judged as being something that

rhymes with witch if you're a strong person. women who feel undervalued themselves. younger women who have not maybe experienced that in the workplace yet and their experience is more in the collegiate world, they don't necessarily respond to that argument. but women with some years in the workforce and have dealt with the biases, they feel incensed. >> jose, it goes to does this mean any criticism of hillary clinton is going to be -- is the clinton campaign going to automatically go -- emily's list is stoking this right now. almost as a way they're hoping to galvanize women. >> when is the last time we heard criticism of a man screaming too much? >> howard dean. >> look what happened. i was just looking at joy right now. weous our hands a lot more. i can't tell you how many times i have been told latinos, you guys are a lot louder in a public setting. probably we are in a lot of ways, but i got to tell you something, i don't understand why hillary clinton has to be

said she's screaming. she has to smile more. i don't hear men being asked that in the same way. >> talking to top republicans, there's a real fear when it comes to how donald trump may approach secretary clinton's delivery. look at the instagram video he put out which featured secretary clinton barking as part of a joke on the campaign trail. and they worry if you're pat toomey in pennsylvania, kelly ayotte, senators in blue states, how is it going to help you when the party front-runner -- >> and look at the most prominent woman he attacks which isn't hillary clinton, megyn kelly. whenever you see an unnamed statement from fox news, he might as well say it's in roger ailes. >> it was very striking. to accuse him of having a sick obsession. it may be true. it's very bizarre the feud between these two and it's interesting that trump keeps picking these fights with the most prominent organ of journalism on the right.

but to your point about the general election and the gender politics there, i think to this point hillary clinton has tried very hard to turn herself into a sort of feminist identity politics candidate, right? she has really leaned into the woman thing this into a sort of feminist identity candidate. she's leaned into the woman thing and it hasn't worked. >> that hasn't worked. >> maybe it will. >> if trump is her opponent in the general election, that turns the tables and makes the gender politics really intense. >> hillary clinton ran against the feminist ideal in 2008 because she was trying to be commander in chief. donald trump specifically uses a woman's appearance to attack them, with rosie o'donnell, or carly fiorina. he is stoking a certain base that wants that male, white male primacy back. and that is a core part of his message. hillary clinton is in an

excellent position to counter that in the general election. >> it goes back to this trump issue. that one ad that was run that hasn't had any money behind it of women reading the things trump has said about women, can you imagine if they put money behind that ad and ran it for two weeks? >> it's devastating. >> northern virginia, we'll see it a lot. >> you'll see a lot of it. that's the real concern for republicans, how does trump play in the suburbs of northern virginia, the suburbs of philadelphia. republicans still need to win the suburban voters who went for mitt romney. >> we'll take a pause and be back with our end game segment and talking something that hasn't happened in nearly 90 years. not a contested convention. it's when calvin coolidge was in office. it's a visit to cuba by the sitting president of the united states. and it's happening today. i'm billy, and i quit smoking with chantix. i had a lot of doubts going in. i was a smoker. hands down, it was, that's who i was. after one week of chantix, i knew i could quit. along with support, chantix (varenicline) is proven to help people quit smoking.

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aleve pm is the only one to combine a sleep aid plus the 12-hour strength of aleve... for pain relief that can last into the morning. and now... i'm back. aleve pm for a better am. end game time. jose, i have a feeling the cuban people are going to be more excited about this trip in cuba than necessarily the entire cuban population in south florida. >> everybody is looking at this trip. let's put a little context in it. the united states, when castro took power in 1959, had 48 states. hawaii and alaska weren't states. mick jagger hadn't even gotten any satisfaction, he was 15 years old when the castro brothers took power. a lot of people in south florida think of the castro brothers as kim jong-il. the president is going in there

now and he is going to be seen as someone, by the cuban people, who can speak to them. let's hope that he uses those words to inspire them. >> it's interesting, joy, i've been to cuba, and cuban people love america. they love america. they want to come. many of them are not happy living under the regime they lived in. but the criticism of the president is, too soon for you to be going, let the vice president go, let secretary kerry go, but until those guys release all those political prisoners, don't do it yet. >> there will be significant pressure on president obama to meet with dissidents. there's been an edict from the cuban government not to do so. >> i think it will hurt if he doesn't do it. >> he's going to do the baseball game. sports has been unifying, along with music, particularly in south florida, a lot of unity there. the president has to walk a line.

the openness to the united states is there, there is tremendous openness on the island to us and wanting to have -- >> 100%. >> but we cannot ignore the issue of dissidents and repression. >> this makes the government in cuba anxious. >> there hasn't been an election there since before 1959. people want change. hopefully there will be change and the president will help. >> speaking of change, the republican party is hoping to change the trajectory of this race. molly and robert, you two cover this. the "new york times" claims it's a hundred-day strategy to deny him. >> this has been a keystone cops operation from the start. if this were a republican establishment that had its stuff together, the time to make sure donald trump didn't get the nomination would have been six months ago. instead they've been running around like chickens with their heads cut off. even now it's not unified.

the chances of stopping him are very small. donald trump got a lot of flack for saying there would be riots. but i think it's true that you can't just say to his voters, this large so far plurality lock of the republican party that you don't count. and that we're not going to listen to you. donald trump doesn't go away if there's some kind of weird contested convention and they take it away from him. >> the thing about all these anti-trump strategies, none of them talk about how they're going to woo the trump voter. >> i hope they can eventually bring the party together on the convention floor. every person who left the army-navy club seemed depressed when i was there, downbeat, because of the possibility of a third party bid. as much as they have all these different names they're considering, it's very difficult to do. the other meeting that bothers them, monday at jones day, trump will be meeting with republicans at capitol hill, long time party consultants. >> today, what you heard was a capitulation to the idea that

donald trump can lead their party and lead this country. other than governor kasich, there is a complete capitulation that you're seeing in terms of the republican party. >> the relationships with cruz have been so severed since the 2013 shutdown that cruz doesn't have the political capital he needs with the establishment to get them to coalesce. >> let me close quickly with the supreme court. does anybody here think we'll get hearings? >> i'm very dubious. but those eight very vulnerable purple state senators will be in a world of hurt. >> we're going to go to the meetings, they need the conservatives to come out in a general election. >> no way they're getting hearings. maybe some meetings but no hearings. >> mitch mcconnell is very determined. when he makes up his mind, it stays made up. >> that is true. but chuck grassley, if a poll comes back and he's under 50 in his election, i think that's the one way we could see it.

>> you're saying we could see them? >> there's more chance of hearings than we realize. but it's in the hands of what the political standing of chuck grassley in the next six weeks. great panel. great discussions. that's all we have for this week. we'll be back next week after more primaries, because if it's sunday, it's "meet the press."

hillary clinton, she leads in delegates. >> i am not a one issue candidate because this is not a one issue country. >> and tomorrow she's looking to win big in five key states. >> you don't make america great by getting rid of everything that made america great. >> but as bernie sanders proved last week, thinking can happen. >> tonight hillary clinton makes her case to the societiers of hill notice. >> i get things done. >> hoping to stepped her lead. >> this is