the third man. let's play "hardball." good evening. i'm chris matthews in washington on this day after easter. the republican nominee for president will either be donald trump who will win on delegates, or someone else who wins at an open convention. if it comes to it, that could be ohio governor john kasich, our guest tonight. i'm joined by presidential candidate governor john kasich of ohio. a poll shows you beating hillary clinton by 11 points in a hypothetical general election matchup. it shows trump losing to clinton by 38% to 49%. you're fund rising off the low-level feud between trump and cruz. your campaign sent out an e-mail today that reads enough is enough with the mud slinging and

the personal attacks. it's time to get serious and select a republican who can win in the fall. with your help, it would deny trump delegates and head into the convention with the man who will win. there's two ways the republican party will pick a delegate. donald trump, or someone else at the convention. how do you win at the convention? looking at it from this point? >> well, because, chris, if you take a look at all the polls that republican versus hillary, i'm really the only one who consistently wins. i think the fox poll may be an aberration for cruz. but there's no way he wins. you go to the convention. i'm a conservative. some of these talk show people, you know, try to run me down. tell me who's balanced more budgets, reformed welfare, cut more taxes, shrunk government, transferred power out of

washington, or out of our state capital. nobody's done all that. who knows more about national security. so i think at that point they're going to say, all right, who can win in the fall, which is me, and secondly, this is a crazy one, chris, who actually could be president? and who could help fix the country? i think both of those things are appealing to delegates. you know who the delegates are. they're the people you know. they're the local party officials, they're former state legislators, former congressmen. these are people that will make good choices, and this notion that everything's going to be crazy over there is false. >> let's talk about -- let's gps it. you get to cleveland. you get some delegates. trump doesn't have new for the 1,237, neither does cruz, he's well behind trump. you get to the convention and start giving that pitch, which i think is a good pitch. who are the leaders? are there any leaders? is reince priebus a leader? do we have any guys with cigars

like bob strauss would sit in the back room, and actually oh-who's going to broker the damn thing? don't you need leaders who say, come in here, we think we have a deal that will work here? figure it out. who's going to broker it? who are the brokers? >> well, look, you're going to have people like haley barber involved. on my side i've got charlie black. i was there with charlie in 1976. i was just a kid. charlie was one of the most important people in the reagan campaign and he'll be involved with us. ben weber is another one, john sununu, they know how to do these kinds of things. in terms of how you broker it, this isn't going to be a bunch of guys sitting in the back room with a bunch of cigars, i don't think, because we have so much transparency now. if you smell of smoke coming from the back room, people will smell it. a person going into the convention who led in delegates was only selected three times

out of ten. so at some point people are going to -- look, think about brussels. we've got one guy -- we've got one guy saying that we should ban all muslims from coming into america. i have no idea how you would do that. we've got another guy we should be patrolling muslim neighborhoods. you and i both know if you're going to have intelligence and protect the country, you can't alienate the many people you need to help us to figure out where the radicals are and where they live. these things are important, chris. we're talking about electing the commander in chief, not all this politics. forget it. >> i agree with you, governor. some guy in new york deciding ellis island, wherever you have to decide this, decides at the airport, are you a men onnite christian or supporting jewish? a lot of people have similar looks and backgrounds. i don't know how you decide on somebody's religious beliefs. i agree with you on that. what do you think of cruz having patrol cars going through

neighborhoods, where he thinks there are suspiciously islamic and driving around in squad cars patrolling them? >> all i know is bill bratton, who is the best spers on policing in america, i only spoke to him one time. he is a brilliant guy. ran boston, i guess he ran whatever it is, the traffic side of boston, the subways and all that, the metro system, police chief of new york city. he goes to los angeles, he figures out how to deal with the gangs. now he's back in new york again. he said this idea that cruz has is crazy. and then his deputy saying the same thing. what are you going to do? you get this information on -- i want to say one more thing. if you want to get information on radicalism, who do you think is going to find it out, chris matthews or someone who is part of the muslim community? >> how do you make this case,

though? the last convention, like three ballots, the democrats back in '52, they had a guy they didn't like, thought he was a drunk or something, just didn't like the guy. he didn't make it to the -- all of a sudden this well-spoken guy, stevenson, by the third ballot he wins. you're laughing that nothing's like that happened but in the movies in the last 60 years. >> how about lincoln? >> that's a long time ago, before the tube and everything else. how do you rise up on the third or fifth or sixth ballot? assuming trump doesn't get to 1,237. the establishment says -- >> here's how you do it. >> okay. >> i don't know that the establishment, the delegates are going to look at record. i'm going to stress that i can be the president to fix the country. but secondly, i have the ability to get the crossover votes, to actually win.

i beat hillary soundly in every single national poll. either we want to win -- i assume we're trying to pick a republican who can win in the fall and somebody that can be president. so you get around, you see the delegations -- look, i was with ronald reagan in 1976. i ran five states for him at the convention. and we came very, very close to defeating an incumbent republican president. the delegates take this stuff seriously. so we'll have our people out there, they'll have their people out there. and we'll make the appeal. else's worked pretty well for me throughout my lifetime. >> between now and cleveland this summer, where are you going to win? you're apparently pulling your ads in parts of wisconsin. are you going to win wisconsin or is that going to go to somebody else? can you win pennsylvania? i think you're strong in pennsylvania. >> well, look, we're in pennsylvania, we're in a dead heat with trump, okay? and then when we head farther east, we're going to pick up

delegates. we'll pick up delegates in all these places and we'll move forward. we'll get delegates here in wisconsin. pennsylvania's going to be, like i say, we're doing very well there. but the key is not necessarily having to win as much as it has to do with getting delegates. by the way, you know, i've received like no bump. i'm whining a little bit here. i win ohio by 11 points and what do people say, ho-hum? i mean, the day before the election they're like, it's -- >> but it's -- >> let me ask you this question. how many people who have ever run for president in the republican party got elected without winning ohio? how many? >> none. >> i can give you the answer. zero. >> i know. it's like a battleground state. >> it's really critical. i'm not going on any ticket. >> if trump cleans up his act and says it's the only way the republicans win the general, we need ohio and they need you,

what do you say? >> i'm not doing that. not for haven't vice president. by the time i finish my second term as governor, if i don't work out here, i will have been in public life for 30 years. that's about as much service as anybody can be expected to give, and for those who serve their country, why don't you serve your country and get behind me. what are you doing? serve your country and get behind me. how do you like that, matthews? that's pretty good. >> that's pretty personal. >> get behind me, come on. >> my vote is waiting for november. but thank you very much. >> i'm not talking about you, i'm talking -- >> that's personal. i was getting nervous there. i thought you were retailing me for a minute. anyway, john kasich of ohio, thanks for coming on. >> it's always great.

coming up, trump versus cruz. the battle between donald trump and ted cruz sounds like high school boys towel snapping in the locker room. trump said of cruz, he started it. also, weekend with bernie. bernie has victories in all three contests, alaska, hawaii and state of washington. he's stepping up his attacks right now on hillary clinton. can he still win the democratic nomination? great question. plus, fresh off the weekend. the round table gives access to the reporters' notebooks. and finally tonight, let me finish with what happened 100 years ago today, a terrible beauty was born. this is "hardball," the place for politics.

big things are brewing this week on msnbc. donald trump will join me for an exclusive town hall at 8:00 p.m. eastern. a huge lineup here on msnbc.

it starts at 7:00 p.m. eastern, john kasich will join chuck todd in queens, new york. at 9, rachel maddow will sit down with both democratic candidates, with hillary clinton and bernie sanders. it's all on msnbc this wednesday night. (announcer) need to hire fast? go to ziprecruiter.com and post your job to over 100 of the web's leading job boards with a single click. then simply select the best candidat from one easy to review list. you put up one post and the next day you have all these candidates. makes my job a lot easier. (announcer) over 400,000 businesses have already used ziprecruiter. and now you n use ziprecruiter for free. go to precruiter.com/offer99

welcome back to "hardball." the republican race seemed to reach new lows in the past two weeks with the wives of donald trump and ted cruz coming up attack. charlie sykes called on trump to apologize to ted cruz. >> i failed in my effort to introduce you to wisconsin and our tradition of civility and decency by getting an apology from you for heidi cruz or what you said about scott walker -- >> am i getting an apology by

someone who sent out a picture of my wife to everybody? >> as we know, that was an independent group. >> no, it wasn't. no, it wasn't. is he going to apologize? is ted cruz going to apologize for starting it and sending out that picture? i didn't start it. he started it. if he didn't start it, it would have never happened. nothing like this would have ever happened. but he started it. so -- >> just remember, we're not on a -- hey, we're not on a playground. we're running for president of the united states. >> i agree with that a hundred percent. >> i'm joined by hallie jackson in wisconsin. and senior adviser to jeb bush, thank you for joining us. hallie, we just had john kasich on. he's hopeful he can be the third man, the one who emerges, after multiple ballots up in cleveland. i guess that's what -- what is cruz -- how does he -- he wins wisconsin, i guess, isn't that the plan? and then moves on?

>> that's the goal. that's exactly right. win wisconsin and move on. it's not just a strategy about delegates, because obviously the campaign wants to lock up the nomination before a contested convention. that does seem very difficult for them. if you look at the map, it's nearly impossible, or is impossible for john kasich to do. which is why he's looking for a contested convention. the team has strategies in place to do this, especially when it comes to delegates. you've seen what they've done in louisiana making sure their delegate slates are stacked, picking up the delegates from rubio, and doing the same thing in south carolina. look for them to do that in north dakota this weekend and colorado coming up. why does wisconsin matter? well, for ted cruz, it's an opportunity to prove not only can he win another state, that he can do it in the midwest and pick up momentum as the rest of the calendar moves east to new

york and new jersey, where you would think trump would romp, but the cruz campaign is certainly not receding. >> if he wins wisconsin, that does shake things up. al, we were talking in that earlier segment with john kasich. i said, who are the bosses in politics? who are the people in the back room like in the old days, bob strauss, the democratic side, who can actually broker a convention? how do you have a brokered convention with no brokers? who are they? >> well, i'll tell you, very few. >> maybe you are. >> well, look, furthermore, there hasn't been a successful one yet. i went back and looked at the 1820s with the anti-mason convention and i looked at nine or ten open or brokered or contested conventions. and not a single candidate emerging out of those conventions ever won a general election. here we have two guys, as comedians would say, who's on first? so both ted and donald trump

have to stop this thing. when people are laughing with you, that's good. when they're laughing at you, that's not good. and so they better get this thing figured out and we better get into a convention and figure out also how to heal the wounds that they're getting deeper the more personal this thing gets. >> when it gets to your families, it gets very dirty. here's a bit of the back-and-forth over the last 36 hours. just 36 hours. >> he's been hiding in trump tower. late at night he sends tweets attacking my wife, attacking heidi. it is inappropriate and disgusting. this is garbage. tabloid smear. and it came from donald trump and his henchmen. >> i had nothing to do with the "national enquirer." i just saw it yesterday for the first time. it's likely he should blame me because he's losing by a lot. >> this has turned into an absurd race to the bottom.

this is the campaign that trump wants. chaos, unpredictability, unseriousness. ask yourself which one of the three remaining candidates will prosper. at least not be damaged by that focus. the answer is obvious. hallie, it seems to me the -- according to chris' thinking, trump does well on a muddy track. when things get rough and tumble and people get personal and go after each other's spouses, he always comes out better. >> because look at what's not being talked about, chris. a few days removed, a week removed from a terror attack overseas. there was a shooting at the capital today. there are events happening here in the u.s. and around the world that the conversation has simply moved beyond because of donald trump. largely continuing to bring this up when had eis in the public eye, he's continuing to be asked about it as well. this is a point ted cruz made today. talked about the idea should donald trump apologize to ted cruz, should ted cruz apologize

to donald trump. i asked the senator about this, and he looked around and he said, who cares. who cares if donald trump is sitting up late at night tweeting. who cares if the american people deserve better this, we need to move on. it allows cruz to look like he's taking the high road here, and allows him to do what he and his campaign want to do in wisconsin, which is pivot away from attacks on donald trump and instead talk more about two things, jobs, and national security. much more so than we've seen from ted cruz over the last couple of months. he's taking what you could call a more pop i list tone. talking about workers and economic security and foreign policy as it relates to keeping the u.s. safe. which is something he's talked about before, but it's clearly field designed for him to appeal to the wisconsin conservatives as opposed to the utah conservatives or iowa conservatives, places he's been successful in the past. >> i don't buy the fact that cruz says trump attacked my two

children and family. why does cruz talk about the two kids? nobody's talking about his kids. why did he bring it up? there's no way it's in there. >> i think he's trying to draw this idea of family. his family under fire. i think there's perhaps an idea that people can relate to that, right? people who have families, who have spouses can relate to their spouses coming under attack. >> al, what do you make of that? i guess you can go way back to the late 19th century, they talk about candidates, fathering illegitimate children, where's my ma and where's my pa, that kind of stuff. we've had dirty campaigns of this nature, but not recently. this is the side-about i-sides of spouses. this is so high school. this is pretty rough stuff. >> well, look, we've started appealing to our lower instincts in some of these primary commentaries.

it's only gone downhill since. at least in the early days you had duels. and that kept most people from stepping out of line. nowadays, it's just a back-and-forth. but look, if they don't get this resolved soon and we move forward, with kind of the serious talk that she was just talking about, i think our party's wasting a golden opportunity. look, the turnout numbers are great. i think that front-runner for the democrats is in a weakened position. but with ekeep stepping on it. and every day i wake up and say how much worse can it get. and we figure out a way to make it worse. i'm hoping to wake up one morning and get all this behind us and start talking about real issues so we can fan some momentum. but it's getting short. >> donald trump's transparent views are coming under dispute. eugene robin so wrote, it appears he knows next to nothing

about the issues that would confront him in the job. here he is answering a question, donald trump, about isis. here he is. >> if you could substantially reduce the resk of harm to ground troops, would you use a battlefield nuclear weapon to take out isis? >> i don't want to start the process of nuclear. one thing everybody has said, i'm a counterpuncher. rubio hit me, bush hit me. when i said low energy, low energy individual, he hit me first. by the way, it's been $18 million worth of negative ads on me. >> this is about isis. >> can i ask you one thing? this is a good looking group of people. can i go around so i know who the hell i'm talking to? >> donald trump sat down for an interview with "the new york times" last week. >> he would cancel defense treaties with japan and south korea, against north korea.

he doesn't mind, had ewould be okay if japan and south korea go nuclear. american policy for decades, since world war ii, has been trying to keep nukes out of that arena. he would stop importing oil from saudi arabia, if they don't pay to more for their defense. we need oil. we are not energy independent. we rely on oil, still. for our daily needs. >> sure. >> he is completely all over the lot on iran. he believes -- he complained iran isn't buying our planes. it had to be pointed out iran is still under sanctions and cannot buy american planes. he is completely uneducated about any part of the world. >> you know, hallie jackson, normally when a candidate starts talking about nuclear weapons, the opponent jumps on him. because with eamericans, or nobody in the world likes their leaders to talk about the use of nuclear weapons of the you just say no comment. it's not something you talk about.

it's astounding to me that trump has discussed, even though it was poked into it by reporters who want to have him do this, usually know what the reporters are up to, and have some fun. i'm not talking about nuclear weapons in south korea or japan or -- he's accepted that bait of the reporters. why isn't the guy you're covering jumping on him? >> well, two points to make on this topic, chris, when it comes to the question that you're asking. number one is what his rivals are doing. you spoke to governor kasich. he was out campaigning in wisconsin today. this is the area where kasich and ted cruz both see weakness for donald trump. and they see a real vulnerability because of the clip you just played. when you talk to these people out at trump events, including at rival events, you still find truch supporters. for example, a cruz event today, we spoke with a woman who talked about donald trump. it's about how he comes across

and what he seems to stand for as has been cited for us. for them, they don't mind he's talking about the japanese-south korean treaties with the united states. they like how he's communicating his message and that is what resonates to them. it's been resonating to them. and it hasn't changed so far, chris. >> yeah. >> chris, america can't survive a donald trump domestic policy. but on foreign policy, i don't want to take that risk. you just evidenced it. >> you and i remember the fact that when castro and khrushchev had those intermediate range missiles aimed at new york city, even then jack kennedy was careful how he dealt with the whole thing. thank you so much, hallie jackson, and al, for coming on. coming up, bernie sanders is racking up wins. toughening his attack on hillary clinton. he wants to debate her in new

york, apparently. this is "hardball," the place for politics.

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right now, we have a lot of momentum. we're focusing on wisconsin, new york state. we have a path to victory. we are going to win this nomination process. >> welcome back to "hardball." that was, of course, senator bernie sanders after his big weekend sweeping the states of washington, hawaii and alaska. today his senior adviser, tad devine, characterized hillary clinton as a weak front-runner. david plouf said sanders doesn't have a chance at winning the nomination. today, with data advancements and especially in races with clear demographic trends, there are fewer surprises. it's eaier to predict which

delegate allocation will end as a result. casey, you're out front here. it appears bernie sanders, that they've got a second wind here. they're going for the kill. they want to beat hillary clinton. take the nomination away, not just get on the platform or win the argument on student loan payments, but beat her. >> if they want to beat her, they would be up on the air with all the kinds of ads that were run against hillary clinton. or that barack obama leveled at her in 2008. there is -- there are no shortage of ways to go after hillary clinton. the reality is -- >> who's talking about sharpening their knives?

>> there are people talking about sharpening the knives, but they're still saying, it's going to be about policy. i will believe it -- >> you're such a veteran. if it's about policy, they're not serious. >> he has not named her in a single negative ad. >> because he won't go after e-mail or benghazi that republicans do. >> he said he wouldn't. and part of the bernie sanders mystique, the bernie sanders thing is that he's not a regular politician. he said he wouldn't do negative advertising. >> but he still -- but that makes the point of the he should be going all out in the way had eknows he has to, which is clinton. >> they just had a string of victories, caucuses, who knows. but they're on a winning streak right now. why wouldn't they -- >> let's talk turkey. he wins wisconsin on april 5th to get in the game again. he has to win april 5th. >> i think that's right. >> he wants to win in new york. look at this. this weekend, sanders called on secretary clinton to debate him

in new york before the primary on the 19th. let's watch. >> i would hope very much that as we go into new york state, secretary clinton's home state, that we will have a debate, new york city upstate, whatever, on the important issues facing -- >> are you worried she won't debate you anymore? >> yeah, i do have a little bit of concern about that. but i certainly would like to see a debate in new york state. >> that was a great question by john. he waste quite ready for the tactical question. just the big philosophical thing. one of clinton's top advisers responded today there wouldn't be another debate. listen to this, unless sanders' tone changed. this is like a nun talking. you've got to change your tone for us to have a proper debate. >> there's no risk. she's done very well in the debates. but senator sanders doesn't get to decide when we debate. let's see if he goes back to the tone he set early on. if he does that, we'll talk

about debates. >> no chance of a new york debate? >> i didn't say that. we'll see what kind of tone he sets. >> tone? tone? politics is supposed to have a somewhat rough tone to it. he said unless you clean up your act and get more nice to us, we're not going to have a debate with you. >> joel, whom i love, if he thinks bernie sanders is running a negative campaign from hillary clinton, what does he expect from donald trump? >> is this a fake foul? >> it seems to me if they can't take the kind of punches leveled at her, what -- >> what's joe up to? >> he's trying to back bernie off. he wants to make sure that bernie doesn't run a more vick rouse campaign. it's a high-handed tone. >> hillary clinton to get a debate she wanted a few weeks ago, a month ago, agreed to the two extra debates. >> she never wanted a debate in

new york. the debate in new york was always a sticking point. when they were in the protracted negotiations, the one thing the sanders campaign was focused on is location and time. >> why does location matter? >> because there's going to be a primary in new york. she wanted a debate in flint, michigan, but -- >> so he wanted it -- >> beningson also on that same call said sanders was going to campaign as a brooklynite in new york, and hillary clinton was going to campaign as the senator who once represented the entire state. >> well, from new york, from new york. >> she switches into a brooklyn accent, he said, when i was a boy in book lynn. is there going to be a debate in new york? >> the jury is still out on that. >> where does bernie sanders think he can win now? wisconsin? >> he thinks he can win

wisconsin. new york, they are more confident about new york than you might think. they think that their numbers look better there than in some other states that they were further behind and eventually won. that's also a wild card. they're also looking at pennsylvania. >> if he has any hope of -- >> exactly. you guys are so smart. you see beyond all this b.s. i think pennsylvania is for hillary. the clintons have always been popular in pennsylvania. >> working class white voerters in pennsylvania? >> that's too cute. casey hunt, thank you, gene robinson. we'll see. she's from scranton, remember. these two democrats could face the billionaire from new york, donald trump. i'll sit down with trump in an exclusive town hall wednesday night in green bay, the home of the packers. wisconsin. 8:00 p.m. eastern here on msnbc. the round table is coming here next for next on this republican race.

welcome back to "hardball." we're back with the round table. howard, this latest high school

thing has not changed. we've just got this hot off the wire of the here's ted cruz in the locker room, towel snapping with donald trump. debate like a man. why don't you show up and debate like a man. this is what's going on now. this is all about finger size -- whatever, appendage size. >> what's going on in their own race to the bottom. there's a two-man race between ted cruz and donald trump to see who can get to the absolute bottom of political rhetoric. i think cruz thinks he can win by chesting it out with donald trump, i think he's making a mistake. ultimately that is donald trump's turf. if ted cruz is going to win, he has to do it a little differently than that. >> neither one of them looks particularly tough, they just seem like terrible people yelling at each other. like slap fighting. it's terrible. >> that doesn't sound like a --

>> you can't outtrump trump. you saw that with marco rubio. his campaign died is when he laid into the gutter politics with donald trump. >> could he be stepping on it right now, donald trump? we know from the polling now every time we faced an international crisis, like brussels, we can identify with people, in subways and airports. that's where we live, too, in this country. these europeans look like they live the life with edo in many ways. we're just as exposed as they are. trump is benefiting from this. doesn't he want to get back on this security? i'm going to bash them and do that kind of thing. >> that's what he should be doing. that's where his ultimate appeal is. having attended trump rallies all over the country, i know in some ways he's regarded as our -- to trump supporters, he's regarded as our bad guy, our guy who talks threateningly. he's our guy in a tough fight. i compare him almost like to a kind of pesticide that's banned.

okay? you don't want to use it because you know you're going to inhale a cloud of it, but you really want to get off those pests. that's donald trump. >> that's the nuclear program. >> that's a little problem, yes, exactly. >> trump, look at this new number, he's 49%, which is a high number -- there's only three candidates now, compared to cruz's 28% to kasich's 10%. he's riding high on the security question. >> he is riding high on the security question, pause they're not looking for nuanced proposal. they just wanted assurances. he's playing to their worst fears. he polled well. he knows it. >> how do they stop the muslims at the gate, by the way? people would say, no, i'm christian. what would you say? >> it's not without accident that ted cruz this time tried to be the one to come up with the

trump-like proposal. >> give me a visual of that. describe that with words. describe patrolling neighborhoods. >> go to a place where there's large muslim population and -- >> drive around with the light coming off the roof of the car and pointing into the windows? are they planning anything in there? >> that will create an assimilation problem. >> sabrina's right, ted cruz did it in order to somehow get to the right of donald trump on this question. with that poll number as strong as it is about the temporary ban, cruz is looking for some way to get to the right of it. >> cruz doesn't have the ability to come off like a tough guy. i don't think donald trump comes out like much of a tough guy, frankly, but he can somewhat mimic it. ted cruz is like a lawyer in a suit and weird sort of like cadence. >> i talked to john kasich

earlier on the show, as you know, and he had tough language for trump and cruz on the muslim proposals. let's watch. here's kasich. >> we've got one guy saying we should ban all muslims from coming into america. i have no idea how you would do that. we've got another guy saying we should be patrolling muslim neighborhoods. if you're going to have attention and be able to protect the country, you can't alienate many of the people that you need to help us to figure out where the radicals are and where they live. if you want to get information on radicalism within the muslim community, who do you think's going to find it out? chris matthews or somebody who's part of the muslim community? >> sabrina, it seems to me with 1.6 billion muslims in the world, many from indonesia, pakistan, not the middle east, europe, all over the world, a lot of them are dealing as victims of isis. that's who iis is killing. >> also, what's important about john kasich is, he's trying what

jeb bush it, and even what marco rubio did toward the end of his campaign, but unfor natally for the so-called establishment candidates, that's not what republican voters want to hear. john kasich is not going to appeal to the primary voters, only appeal to the general electorate. it says something that the republican party has reached a point that it's seemed courageous to push back against a proposal to just -- >> is there a kind of crude arift me tick in people's minds that say if we kick 10,000 people out of the country, one might be a troublemaker. but i'm willing to keep 10,000 people. just to keep that one -- the trouble with that is, everybody knows about it. so everybody gets that attitude backlash. this edon't want us there. i'm not applying for a visa. i'm not going to school there. >> it's an elite coded racism. they won't be able to determine who's a muslim or not.

they're going to say, we're going to keep arabs out of the country. >> there are a lot of christian arabs. >> but that's what they're saying. the average trump voter doesn't know -- >> don't forget, donald trump began with the immigration issue, by talking about building a wall. he was already there on immigration, if you want to call it racist, you can, or nativist fear, you can, or call it economic fear, you can. he was there on that ground. then paris happened. then san bernardino happened. suddenly the immigration issue became a security issue. he's at that intersection in the republican party where 80% of the voters want to temporarily ban 1.6 billion people from coming into the country. >> don't let danny thomas in the country. don't let helen thomson in the country. the round table is staying with us. up next, telling me something i don't know. this is "hardball," the place for politics. for my frequent hen

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♪ we can't let you download... uh, no thanks. i have x1 from xfinity so... don't fall for directv. xfinity lets you download your shows from anywhere. i used to like that song. news. we have learned that egyptair flight ms181 has been hijacked. we are getting official word from egyptair itself. it has tweeted that, saying that they'll publish an official statement. although we're still waiting on that official statement. but here's what we know so far about this flight. again, this information is coming in very rapidly to the msnbc newsroom. so we're trying to verify a lot of it. but so far we've learned that it is an egyptair flight that was coming from alexandria going to cairo. it has since landed in cyprus. there are reports that there may be a bomb on board.

again, these reports are coming in very rapidly and we're trying to verify this. there are 55 people, at least that amount on board. some reports say as high as 81 passengers on board. again, we're trying to verify a lot of this information. but we do know that most of the passengers are egyptian. it was an airbus a320 we're learning. again this flight, egyptair flight ms181, has been hijacked. there is no information as to who is behind the hijacking or what the demands are. let's bring in jim cavanaugh. he's a former atf agent. to help us kind of weed through all this information as it's coming in to us. very quickly, jim. and we're trying to decipher what is verified, what is not verified, what we can trust. but what we do know at this point is that this flight has been hijacked. we don't know if it happened, you know, right after takeoff, if it happened mid-flight, but we know it has since landed. what are you learning about

this? >> well, the good thing right here now is that the plane is on the ground. i mean, it's a horrible situation, hijacking. but when it's on the ground, it's at least one step for authorities because of course they can try to deal with it. sometimes you have these things and they break when they're in the air. so it is on the ground. they can block the plane with vehicles so it can't take off. and then you can deal with it in a static situation. try to reach the hijacker by phone. does he have a bomb, is there more than one hijacker, is there really a bomb, does he have firearms, who is he, what does he want? and you know, try to take it from there. but if it's on the ground and static, don't let it leave no matter what he demands, no matter what he threatens. you've got to keep the plane there because you can't deal