into the discussion. >> i want to give jamal the chance for last word, i wonder if tuesday means if he does lose, it's a house of cards. >> it's a story line, that's for certain. what we have here is i think a real a sign of his campaign weakening. it's actually starting to affect votes. >> we'll see. like i said, we've been here before. we'll see what the voters in wisconsin say on tuesday. thank you all. "with all due respect" starts right now. i'm john helemann. >> and i'm mark halperin. with all due respects to michelle fields' pen -- pen, this is a class four grenade, three clicks, four second fuse, another three disarms it. the pen is mit mightier than th

bomb. >> we didn't know what she had in her hand. they call him trump, donald j. trump, rarely shaken or stirred. the man with the golden tower, today, this man of national and occasionally international mystery held campaign events across wisconsin and addressed the aftermath yesterday on florida battery charges. we'll talk about that controversy in a moment. because yet another trump controversy broke out this afternoon when the republican front-runner said this about abortion, and msnbc town hall hosted by chris matthews in green bay. >> should a woman be punished for having an abortion? >> look -- >> this is not something you can dodge. if you say abortion is a crime or murder, you have to deal with under the law. should abortion be punished?

>> well, people in certain parts of the republican party, and conservative republicans would say yes, they should be punished? >> how about you? >> i would say it's a serious problem. it's a problem we have to decide on. it's very -- >> you're for banning it. >> are you going to say put them in jail? >> no, i'm asking you. you say you want to ban it. what does that mean? >> i am against, i am pro-life. >> how do you ban abortion? how do you do it? >> you go back to a position like they had where people will perhaps go to illegal places. >> yeah. >> but you have to ban it. >> you ban it, they go to some who flunked out of medical school. >> are you catholic? >> how do you feel about the catholic church's position? do you know their position on abortion. >> yes, i do. >> do you concur with their position. >> i concur with their moral position. legally -- here is my problem. >> what do you say about -- >> it's not funny. >> it's really not funny. what do you say about your

church. >> but the churches make the moral judgments, but you running for the president of the united states, chief of the united states, do you believe in punishment, as a principle? >> the answer is that there has to be some form of punishment. >> for the woman. >> yeah, there has to be some form. >> ten years? >> that i don't know. >> why not? >> i don't know. >> you take positions on everything else. >> it's a complicated position. >> the political world has been reacting to that fascinating exchange on another msnbc town hall today after that one, john kasich was in queens, new york and criticized trump's answer as inappropriate. hillary clinton was up in harlem giving a speech. she singled out trump for being intolerant in her speech and then quick to respond by twitter, quote, just when you thought it couldn't get worst, horrific and telling, clinton said. trump tried to walk back his remarks, in not one but two text statements he put out over the course of the afternoon. one out just moments ago, if

congress were to pass legislation making abortion illegal and upheld it, or any state were permitted to ban abortion under state and federal law, the doctor or any other person performing this illegal act upon a won would be held legally responsible. not the woman. the woman is a victim in this case. as is the life in her womb. my position has not changed, i am pro-life with exceptions. it is swirling. how big a problem is this for trump now? >> it's a big problem on almost every level, mark. you think about what this means for donald trump in a general election, the kind of talk when we talked about marco rubio's posture on abortion, making it hard to win a general election, this is just as bad. rhetorically horrible. he is in a position that he is not only at odds with democrats, with independents, he is at odds on this issue with a lot of c

conservative republicans, that women should not be penalized, trump is trying to fix it, but the language is patronizing, it's bad on every level and the woman narrative that has been building at least a week now. bad, bad, bad. >> a hard issue for those in the pro-life community. no good answer. conservative also criticize me for asking the question, because it seems logical that if abortion is murder and a woman decides to have one, she should be punished, but political untenantable to say that, and trump has switched and saying they're victims, which is an old fashioned view of women that will alienate a whole group of people. he is trying to clean it up. he can hope it goes away, but this shows that when he is pressed, as chris matthews did on tough issues, he is still learning as a first time candidate. >> well, yes, and i think the

thing about that, the way that matthews got this on testing, getting in-depth with him on this issue. it is a complicated moral issue, it presents lots of conundrums. he isn't even sure what the pro-life issues are. he is faltering there in his grasp. it is showing an underlying weakness, and as i said before, we both said, it's just a position, no one will let him forget it. certainly hillary clinton is not going to let him forget this in any general election if he is the nominee. >> it may not hurt him in the short-term it, will hurt him in the general. this i believe could hurt him in the general. let's talk about the other trouble in trump land. a day after his campaign manager was charge would with battery for allegedly grabbing a breitbart reporter, the republican front unn-runner did

back down. all throughout today, trump offered this as his version of the events in question. >> she grabs me or hits me on the arm. in fact, i'm like this. am i supposed to press charges against her. she had a pen in her hand, which secret service is not liking it. i wasn't interviewed by the police. i don't know. they're in a town where i have a big investment. i'm trying to figure are these democrats, republicanless. it was so minor, people are saying what is all this about. we have people in the middle east chopping off heads, and he brushes her. what kind of country are we in when they go to kasich, what would you do. i would fire him. they go to ted cruz, i would fire him. folks, as your president, you need somebody that's going to be loyal to the country, and to yourselves. >> so beyond this story, trump and his supporters are facing more damming headlines.

two men who a sejllegedly sexua assaulted a janesville girl, the internet rounds for the past 24 hours. mark, considering all of the news that's out there, how is, do you think, trump's take no prisoners corey lewandowski strategy going? >> if he wins wisconsin or wins new york big, then over the short-term, it will pave over the problems. the danger, all these swirling controversies connect up to the notion of women, attitude and treatment towards women, and if he loses wisconsin, and if the exit polls show he has done badly with women, this is just a narrative that will be tough for him to try to put down. >> look, you've got, i mean, again, these all connect up, as you just said. if you start with the heidi cruz, the heidi cruz tweet of her and that unflattering picture, you move on to corey lewandowski, allegedly man

handling a female reporter, now charge would with that crime. this pepper spraying thing, the atmosphere of violence, now that borings thing, not just women, but an atmosphere of restrained and unrestrained violence around trump. it's disquiting, and he may or may not win the wisconsin primary. we'll talk more about that later. this is the first time trump is being battered right now. a little on the rope. >> the dirty little secret, it's great to have the press on your side. trump has gotten very good coverage from the media. these stories are turning the press against trump in a way that is not existed before. it's a danger for him. if he keeps winning, he is okay in the short-term, but if he starts to suffer losses, the press will -- showing loyalty is good for some people, but others

are troubled by it. we'll see how the wisconsin voters feel about that ahead of wisconsin's primary. a new state poll of wisconsin voters. republicans and democrats from marquette university, ted cruz beating donald trump among gop voters in the badger state 40% to 30%, john kasich is 21%. 80% of those goppers approve of the job governor scott walk is doing, before he endorsed ted cruz. the approvers already in this poll support cruz, the same number of walker fans that side with kasich and cruz combined. sanders is beating hillary clinton 49 to 45%. myth cal matchups, sanders beating all three loses to kasich, ties with kasich and beats trump. let's go back to the republican numbers and pick apart the poll.

what is significant of skat walker's sky high approval rating with less than a week to go with the primary? >> well, we said yesterday, mark, we tlahought there was no doubt endorsement of ted cruz would help a little bit. he is popular with republicans. conferring his blessing on ted cruz yesterday may have been a signal of the fact that walker is also a cagey political operator, could see the momentum is rolling in cruz's direction any way. if he is ahead this much before the walker endorsement, you can't think he's going to get a couple of more points out of that endorsement and maybe steal the wisconsin primary for him on tuesday. >> again, we don't want to start making this all dump on trump day, but trump has been pretty successful when he is criticized, even in the home states, but criticizing walker as he has down, might be a mistake. he is very popular. when we see walker on the trail with cruz, which we're told to

expect, he has a chance to really drive a message. quickly, let's talk about those democratic numbers. and the fact -- the democratic survey that bernie sanders once again is doing better than hillary clinton against the republicans. boy, is there a significance to that, or any meaning for the primary? >> well, i think it has some significance in this sense. significance in the sense that hillary clinton's top aides in a state working the state, he moves votes. right now, sanders is going to be here in wisconsin between now and tuesday. hillary clinton is not. if he is ahead in this poll, and the poll is accurate, and spending more days than her, that could mean he too like cruz, virtually certain he'll win the primary i think. >> i still have trouble of getting my head around the math, if there were governor races, bernie sanders would really win? that's incredible. >> yeah, i find that totally

incredible. baffling too. bernie sanders, a lot to talk about bernie sanders. he is on a roll here. we're old enough that remember, all three remaining republican candidates renewed their vows to support the republican nominee, the eventual republican nominee, no matter who that turns out to be. but last night at a cnn town hall, not a single one of them, the remaining three, would repeat that pledge. donald trump said that he made that promise under the condition that the gop establishment would treat him fairly, which he doesn't think has happened. both ted cruz and john kasich edged away from saying they would support the front rubb-ru if he becomes the nominee. will they not support donald trump if he is the nominee in the general election. >> my head says they will, you my gut says they won't. amazingly, despite the delegate lead, no republicans behind chris christie and few other establishment types back trump, and i think that because things have gotten personal between cruz and trump, because kasich's

view of the republican party does not match up with trump's, those will be huge tests. they become leaders of the stop trump movement, even if trump becomes the nominee. >> i think if they're all intellectually and politically consistent, they will not end up supporting donald trump if he is the nominee. if you listen to john kasich and ted cruz have said about trump's infirmities, there is no way they can support him as nominee. if i take them at their word on the merit, consistent, they won't end up in his camp. i don't think it's possible. >> we hear things all the time in nomination fights, oh, that person is horrible, he would be a horrible nominee. in this case. >> it's different this time. >> it's personal. >> yeah. totally. all right, coming up, can the clintons build a big, beautiful fire wall in new york?

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anticipating a competitive empire state primary next month, hillary clinton was showing off her moves today at the -- on stage at the apollo theater in new york, she played up her gothaam city roots. >> i'm not taking anything or anyone for granted. we're going to work for every vote. and every part of this state, just like i did when i ran for the senate. because new yorkers took a chance on me. and i will never forget that. you have always had my back, and i've always tried to have yours.

>> after clinton's press secretary, brian fallon, said on our show yesterday, that the clinton campaign is willing to do a new york debate, bernie sanders welcomed the news with a simple, let's do it. so mark, my question for you is, can the clinton campaign build itself a sturdy, durable new york fire wall. >> they're certainly trying. the city will be a human battle ground, especially nonwhite votes, there is the rest of the state, though. when you start to think how bernie sanders is going to do on long island, how will he do upstate in the rural areas, the clinton is taking their focus off of wisconsin, moving it to new york. the public polls her with a big lead. let's see what happens, as you suggested before, when sanders spends time in new york, what happens, and can he move numbers that will cause the clintons to really dig in. >> like i said, as i did say before, look, he tends to move numbers when he is on the

ground. he has two weeks, between the wisconsin and new york primary. upstate new york is not -- it is in some ways could be sanders country. very white up there. a lot of independent voters up there. that's the kind of -- the part of new york state, upstate, a lot of that that looks like oklahoma. and so bernie sanders could give her a really tough run obviously the clintons are bracing for that. but it could be a competitive primary. >> the other thing is, hillary clinton has done a better job than bernie sanders in his campaign have done of getting momentum from wins. if sanders does wisconsin, if he wins it big, cane take the momentum and make it work in new york. the clintons are hoping to make it a one off. clinton to talks at least as much about her republican rival, donald j. trump, as she does about sanders. she hit trump again in the harlem speech john mentioned, making the case for quote, new york values, diversity, in a new

tv ad she has on the air in the empire state. >> new york, 20 million people strong. no, we don't all look the same. we don't all sound the same, either. but when we pull together, we do the biggest things in the world. so when some say we can solve america's problems by building walls, banning people based on their religion and turning against each other, well, this is new york. and we know better. i'm hillary clinton, and i approved this message. new york, 20 million strong. no, we don't all look the same. we don't all sound the same either. but when we pull together, we he do the biggest things in the world. so when some say we can solve america's problems by building -- >> that was a good ad, i think.

john what strikes you about it? >> what strikes me about it is that it looks to me like a general election ad that you would run in new york, if new york was a battle ground state. obviously, the ways in which it pokes at trump, the ways in which it is a very much ad about the kind of -- it's a morning in america ad, morning in new york, it's got the kind of illusions that donald trump and some of the footage, it just plays into the notion that she is still looking, no matter how much trouble in wisconsin, more looking towards the general election than she is as bernie sanders and the nomination fight. >> for hillary clinton to beat donald trump, she needs two things that she doesn't have enough of now. she needs energy and emotion in her message and that message of tolerance, that inspires a lot of the coalition, the people who supported barack obama and got him reelected and elected. the other thing she needs is she needs to turn out those kind of voters who she is losing to

bernie sanders, particularly younger voter whose care a lot about the same motion. younger, less white voters, more female than male. that message, you'll hear a lot of. every time donald trump does something that the democrats and the media cast as intolerant, the clinton campaign banks it. it will all be recycled if they face each other in the general. >> look, yes, i totally agree with that. gosh, today, you know, with trump's comments, i hate to go back to, or it deserves going back, to his comments on abortion, you could see the aversion of that ad, with minor tweaks is the kind of thing that will be very effective or could be very effective against trump as she plays for the coalition. all right, when we come back, we have some voices from donald trump's rally in wisconsin, here in appleton, wisconsin today. we'll be right back.

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>> if she was being the aggressive person, you've been around them, you're going to get scuffl scuffled. >> she ought to go out on black friday some day, and she'll know what pushing is. >> definitely, he has gotten trump this far, you know, as far as leading his team and campaign. >> i don't know. i guess that's just who he is. he stands by some things i don't think are right, but i like some of the things he does stand by also. >> those were some wisconsin voter whose went to a donald trump rally today in appleton, wisconsin. john, you were there. that's an interesting sampling of opinion, mostly in one direction. what was the mood like in this event? >> well, the mood was -- look, people were happy to see donald trump. it was not a human event. it reminded me of the hillary clinton event we saw in mi milwauk milwaukee, it was a relatively mall event, maybe 1,500 people,

maybe 1,000. they were happy to be there, supportive of mr. trump. he was very low energy. he seemed quite distracted, maybe by the abortion flap that was ranging outside. people were supportive of him, but not a high energy, not an electric donald trump. given the size of the crowd, an extraordinarily large amount of security there, maybe that's what people had feeling, keeping things calm. >> does it feel like he is planning to win in wisconsin, or recognize it will be tough with cruz in the latest poll? >> fingertip feel is like the hillary clinton event we saw on monday night, trump maybe sort of knows he is not going to win this thing. all right, up next, our trump reporter round table, plus, ted cruz's new response to trump's abortion comments right after these words from our sponsors.

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there is more reaction to donald trump's abortion statements. ted cruz put out a statement,

quote, he has demonstrated he says anything just to get attention. what's far too often neglected, being pro-life isn't about the unborn child, it's about the mother and creating a culture that embraces life. of course, we shouldn't be talking about punishing women. we should affirm their dignity and the incredible gift they have to bring life into the world. joining us now is our mini trump round table. guys, how big a deal is this trump thing? you've been on trump for a little while. how does this rate compared to other trump flaps that you've seen in the last month? >> i think there is probably a potentially a flap everyday, but this rates higher, because it's an issue not just something drone servi controversial, it could hurt republicans, hillary clinton, sort of immediately tweeted,

this is horrific and telling. i would say it rates higher. >> what do you think? you've been going back and forth, you're covering democrats i noticed, but doing a fair amount of trump lately. what was your take on that event that we were just at in appleton? >> i thought he was low energy too. i've not seen donald trump ask a crowd to sit down like he did today. it was built as a town hall. he didn't take any questions. he didn't seem to have the same sort of emotion and fire as he usually does. >> in tripump wordld, do you th he feels he'll win the state? >> i think he knows it will be a tough state for him. it was a bad poll out for him today. he seemed to be in a philosophical kind of contemplatetiv mood. he was musing on, wealth and

success, what matters in life, which is sort of not typical trump. so he might know things in wisconsin are not necessarily going his way. >> what do you make of the way cruz is reacting to this? i think given this week began with ted cruz being asked point-blank by british reporters if he ever committed a dull adu, there a little bit of surreal quality to this, is this all good news for ted cruz, what's happened in the last 48 hours. >> i think it's definitely good news for ted cruz. i think wisconsin is can be a big moment for him. i don't think ted cruz can catch donald trump in the delegate count. but if he can get close, the closer he gets, the easier his argument becomes in cleveland. if he can get people in wisconsin coalesced, it shrinks the gap, make the argument easier in pennsylvania. here comes mark halperin. >> as you listen to trump today,

since he has been in wisconsin, what is he focusing on on his criticism of cruz, what is he talking about there? >> well, he is going after cruz in a way that they're calling him the worst of both worlds. he says cruz is establishment now and which is a negative in trump's rld and in front of trump's crowds. but he is an establishment guy who cannot get anything done. obviously his record in washington is one of obstructionist, and one he has built a reputation around. he has zeroed in on two big negatives for cruz. of course, the lyin' ted, the crowds have picked up on that, he doesn't even need to say it. as soon as he starts criticizing cruz, the members of the crowd

will just chime in, lyin' ted. >> ashley, in a normal campaign and we say the trump campaign is not a normal campaign, if the campaign manager had been arrested, you would see disco-c am. boblat boblation. do you think people are thrown off or you can't tell the difference? >> i think it was a slightly tough day for them yesterday. you could kind of see them being a little more disorganized than usual, or not quite as responsive. but no, i was thinking about this with other campaigns i covered. i can't imagine a campaign manager touching a reporter. but it would be an epic meltdown and everything would be centered around it. it was sort of one more kind of blip for them. it was a huge story, but they sort of treated it as, you know, one more thing to get through.

corey turned himself in, got processed and move on with their day. >> ashley, we've not seen a big media buy by trump in wisconsin. any indication about whether they have a television paid media strategy for that state? >> that's a good question. i actually don't know, as you know, he sort of prides himself on relying on free media and earned media, and so this might actually be a state, because of the anti-trump super pacs have gone up here, with the strategy of not paying to be on the air could end up hurting him if he doesn't win. >> if ted cruz wins the state and again, at the moment, it seems from the polling and everything else, like at least the plausible outcome. can he bounls out and be a real competitor to trump in new york? >> i can't see how he'll compete in new york. it's a longer game for cruz, victory here in wisconsin would mean more for him further down the road.

he is so far down behind in the polls. his comments on new york values, trump will hammer on him for the next few weeks in new york. >> my friends, thank you so much. up next, we'll talk to trump senior advisor, barry bennett. if you're watching us in washington, d.c., you can also listen to ousus on the radio on bloomberg 99.1, fm. we'll be right back. maybe too hard. get claimrateguard® from allstate. it helps keep your homeowners' rate from going up just because of a claim. call an allstate agent first. 888-429-5722. accident forgiveness from allstate will keep his rates from going up. but not his blood pressure. michael james! middle name. not good.

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inside the belt way, presidential campaign, barry bennett, amongst other duties, the wrangling squad being put together in advance othe republican convention in cleveland. mr. bennett is a former campaign manager, including for ben carson's campaign. barry, welcome back. >> thank you. boy, you're really missing the traffic in washington. >> if you were teaching a campaign management school at gw or somewhere else and the topic came from a student, what would happen in a presidential campaign if the campaign manager was arrested? what would you -- what would your answer be about what would happen in general? >> if i were teaching campaign management in university today, first thing i would do is burn every textbook they have. you know, i mean, it's unusual. but you know, i think they did the right thing. i mean, she makes some

accusations, which the film doesn't verify. you know, and donald trump says he is going to stand by him. and then you've got to give him credit. they have 2 million votes more than anyone else. the smallest staff, spent the least amount of money. corey should get a lot of credit. >> we talked last segment about a normal quote-unquote would be destabilized by this. has any senior official addressed you, what this means, give you a pep talk? >> you know, mr. trump has said that he is going to stand by corey. corey is the campaign manager. he will be. always will be. they expect corey to be vindicated and continue on as normal. >> switch over to the delegate issue. there is this conventional wisdom you're about to knock down full force, that the cruz campaign is super sophisticated, they know how to count

delegates. they're at the county conventions, state meetings, and steal delegates away from you, r how sophisticated are you, and mr. manoford and others competing for the primaries and caucuses? >> well, you know, we have been doing this for decades as well. you know, it's -- their effort is a little hit and miss. it's good some places, weak in others. you know, we are added full-time now and we're going protect our delegat delegates, obey the rules. and you know, we'll make sure that that happens. >> barry, my question for you on the delegate matter issue, as mark just second, part of the reason why some people accept that conventional wisdom, that the cruz campaign is more advanced than you are, what happened in louisiana. mr. trump says he is going to

sue over what happened in louisiana with the cruz campaign coming out with more delegates, even though they didn't win the primary. on what basis would there be a lawsuit that could be filed, and how is it you came on the shortened of the stick if you're as sophisticated as you say you are. >> the 46 delegates were selected. immediately after, the delegates were supposed to get together to determine who was going to be the delegation leader, who goes to the rules committee, who goes to the floor standing committees. what happened was, of the 46, 27 of them got together, our delegates, mysteriously did not get invited to it, and then of the 27, 22 voted to put the cruz delegates into the leadership positions. you know, 22 isn't half of 46, last time checked. so we'll be challenging the certification of those delegates, which is not with a judge, but a litigation with the

rnc, which goes through the rnc committee, and then eventually to the standing committee at the convention, an then potentially even before the delegates at the convention. >> so barry in a contested convention situation, one of the things that anybody who is in contention to be the nominee is going to be making the argument is that they are the most electable, they can win a general election. how much will it undercut the arguments you'll have to make in that regard when donald trump says things like he says things like abortion and women being punished in a scenario why it was out loud in america? >> well, i mean electability is, you know, kind of that shiny thing that everybody talks about. but the election isn't today. that's the problem. you know, john kasich might be beating hillary clinton today in a snapshot. but go through the fall campaign, and probably won't be the case. everybody knows donald trump is a fighter. and he has -- he will raise the resources we need. most important thing that's happening to our party is this

huge migration of democrats to the republican party. pennsylvania, we've seen over 50,000 democrats switch parties. we're seeing it everywhere. that's making the tent bigger than it has ever been. after a primary, the republicans come back together, we heal at the convention, and then you'll see the numbers changing a great deal. it happens all the time. i think if you go back and look at romney was down 12 points or 11 points i think going into the convention according to the reuters poll, so it happens all the time. >> barry, abortion is not an issue that mr. trump stresses, and certainly not the only issue in this campaign, but he has addressed it three times today. i want to ask you to clarify, it's a moral issue, but the politics for a moment. the politics of the republican party endorses a view error sympathetic to the view is a victim? >> well, i mean, you know, i am

a huge opponent of abortion, so i think the victim is the fetus. >> the candidate said -- >> eeroh, yeah, absolutely. his scenario, you shouldn't get into these ifs and ifs and ifs, if abortion was illegal, and if the supreme court said that it was illegal to do so, what would happen if a woman had an abortion, and he said some women get punished, and i think he said the woman should get punished, but always talked about the doctor or whoever performed the abortion is the one that violated the law, not the woman. >> the democrats -- the democrats are all up in arms about this. a lot of the media is. obviously mr. trump two remaining republican opponents. do you think the things he said today in the original statement to clarify, do you think they'll be controversial or source of

consternation with the republican party or not? >> no, i don't. i mean, you know, he has dominated every news cycle for weeks. scott walker's endorsement got almost no play nationally. they just keep wanting to talk about donald trump. and they don't quite get that's not really helping their cause. >> okay, barry, thank you very much. appreciate. always nice to have you come back. go back to counting delegates. up next, a deeper dive into marquette university wisconsin poll. returning guest, charles franklin, about what areas matter most, et cetera. after these words from our sponsors. as you'll see, when shoppers add an item to their jet carts, they automatically shrink the prices of millions of other products. very impressive.

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came out today, and here to tell us more about what it means. let's start with the republican numbers and goegrophy. >> ted cruz is doing well in the southeast. establish republicans usually do well, until recently you might not have thought of him as a establishment republican, but by comparison with trump, i suppose so. trump had been doing well in the northwest, where rick santorum won in 2012 for example. one of the surprising things, cruz is just one point behind trump in that area. that's apart of the reason behind the cruz surge. >> so your poll was in the field before the walker endorsement, and yet, cruz is up even without the walker endorsement. so my question for you is i guess with walker now behind cruz, how much is that likely to

help him going forward? >> well, you would think that it would help our poll ended on monday night, before walker endorsed the next morning. one of the striking things in the poll is that among republican primary voters, walker's job approval is 80%. so that's very strong. and ted cruz gets 45% of that, donald trump only 27%. conversely, among that 17% that don't approve of walker, trump is getting 44%. so you can see a pretty sharp dividing line there. how much more vote walker can bring to cruz, i think that remains to be seen. maybe there is some there. >> and the last question i had for you, charles, about the republican side of the poll, why is it that john kasich is not doing better in a state that isn't exactly like ohio, but it's not that far from being like ohio? why he is doing so poorly?

>> in a lot of ways, you would think he would do well. he has had a hard time igniting, i think. the comparisons from kasich to walker are reasonably strong. not perfect, but somewhat strong. think what we're seeing with kasich, he is in the middle on a whole lot of things. groups that trump does well in, cruz does okay. kasich does okay, but not enough to break out. >> i'm going to switch over to the democratic side, charles. let's look at those numbers again. you've got sanders with a narrow lead. your poll oh has handsanders wi narrow lead. whether wisconsin would kind of behave more like michigan, where sanders won, or behave more like ohio, where clinton won pretty handedly. what does your poll tell us that will help us answer that question? >> yeah it's a pretty close call. first of all, he is up by about four. but not by a lot.

when you look at the gaps on the gender gap, you look at between white and nonwhite voters, you see that in wisconsin, we have some gaps there, but they're not real big gaps. they're not the kind of large gaps that propel clinton for example in ohio, and that at least help sanders some in michigan. instead, what we're seeing is on both the gender gap and on the gap between whites and nonwhites, we're seeing relatively smaller differences than we saw in the other two states. i think the result is from a sanders win to a clinton win, we're moving to the middle of a close race here. >> right, so if you think about geographically around the state, charles, in the seven days, six days before the primary next week, where does hillary clinton have to do better geographically speaking if she'll pull this thing out somehow? >> geographically, the milwaukee

area. we expected it to be strong, but among likely voters, she is slightly behind. it's very interesting, in the city of milwaukee, an area tailor-made for her, she is up nine points among registered voters, but down by two among likely voters in the city. she needs a really big turnout to make the electorate look like registered voters, and less like likely voters. >> and what is it you think -- what accounts for that? i'm surprised weakness in milwaukee? what is it you think, not in the numbers, but what is it that might explain that? >> we're seeing sanders do pretty well among some constituencies he doesn't do well elsewhere. he is not doing as well as she is among nonwhite voters, but not losing the very large amounts as he has in other

states. on the gender gap, more men voting for him, but it's about even among women. if he can be only losing women by two or three points, that's a real win for him. he has lost it by a lot in some of the earlier states. >> all right. okay, charles franklin, thank you very much. always a bless topleasure on, ee in one week. we'll be right back in just a minute, with who lost, who lost the day, right after this. irect. irect. thank you, we'll call you. evening, film noir, smoke, atmosphere... bob... you're a young farmhand and e*trade is your cow. milk it. e*trade is all about seizing opportunity. people are taking charge of their type 2 diabetes

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all right, john, switching things up a little today, not who won the day, but who lost the day? >> well, there are a lot of candidates for that mark, but john kasich, who today joined the pizza hall of shame, along with bill de blasio, eeating hi pizza with a fork. not good. >> no way to win if you eat pizza with a fork. just a fact of american politics, and italian. head to bloomberg politics.com,

masters in politics podcast. bob shrum. >> absolutely humongous night four, count them, four presidential candidates, here on msnbc. >> thanks for watching. we are americans before we are republicans, or democrats. we are americans. >> john kasich is as determined as ever. >> i'm going to compete across the country, and tell people who i am, and let the chips fall where they may. >> can he unite a divided party? >> i have a record of accomplishment, a record of bringing people together, and i'm the one that can get the crossover votes. >> i will not take the lone road to the highest office in the land. i will not do it. >> and do more than just stay in the race. >> no one is going to that convention with enough delegates. i'm beating hillary by 11