we're also phasing out orca theatrical shows. they'll continue to receive the highest standard of care available anywhere. and guests can come to see them simply being their majestic selves. inspiring the next generation of people to love them as you do. welcome back to this super-sized edition of the rachel maddow show tonight. senator bernie sanders is riding high today in today's presidential politics. just a few days after his huge double-digit wins over the weekend in alaska and hawaii and washington state. bolstered by those huge margins he got in the caucuses in those states this weekend, the sanders' campaign appears to now be feeling its proverbial oats. they're now demanding more debates with hillary clinton. the sanders' campaign is now calling secretary clinton a weak democratic front-runner.

the sanders' campaign is also committing to campaign heavily in some of the big states coming up, including new york state, where senator sanders will be tomorrow, and in the great state of wisconsin, which votes on tuesday, and which senator sanders has already been holding some big rallies. a brand-new poll from marquette university, just out today, puts senator sanders ahead of hillary clinton in wisconsin by four points. looking down the barrel at that, it is a good day to be bernie sanders. today the senator held a big town hall event at the orpheum theater and he joins us from backstage of that theater now. >> good to be with you, rachel. >> congratulations on this big weekend you had. not just wins in those three caucuses, but blowouts. now, there aren't that many more caucuses on the calendar, even though you've done so well at them. the next big state is wisconsin on tuesday. do you expect you're about to win wisconsin as well?

>> well, this is what i think. i think that if there is a large voter turnout, if working class people who have given up on the political process come out to vote, if young people who have never participated come out to vote, if there's a good turnout, we will win. if there's a low turnout, we'll probably lose. so we're doing everything that we can to create a high voter turnout. >> senator sanders, i'm not going to ask you to play pundit. i am going to ask you about some stuff going on in the republican field, in just a second. but before we do that, i was struck by this cover story that "rolling stone" had recently. where they put you and secretary clinton on the cover and they called it the good fight. basically contrasting the fight between you two with what's happening on the republican side, saying the democratic primary has been policy-driven and decent and intelligent. it's been an argument to be proud of, as a country. they also said it's been game-raising, for both of you. basically that it's made you both better candidates.

i wanted to know if you agreed with that. if you think this has been a good fight to be proud of, thus far. and if you think it has changed you over time. >> well, rachel, let me say that comparing us to the republicans, you know, that's a pretty low bar to overcome. and i think what is really a national disgrace, and i think this is not just what, you know, average americans are saying, but what many sane republicans are saying. this country faces enormous crisis. you know, massive levels of income and wealth inequality, a declining middle class, climate change, the pay equity issue for women. and what republican candidates have now stooped to is to starting attacking each other's wives. i mean, this is an international embarrassment. i think people around the rest of the world think we are pretty crazy. so i think compared to that, at least, you know, with secretary clinton and i are right to do, and while we have very different

points of view, we are trying to discuss the real issues facing the american people and i think most objective americans appreciate that a lot more than the kind of circus that is taking place on the republican side. >> i had a chance to speak with secretary clinton earlier today and i asked her this question, as well. i'm going to ask you, because i think it is possible you two might have a difference of opinion on this. last night, the republican candidates gave up on what had been their previous pledges, that they would all support their party's eventual nominee in the fall. because of that, i think whether or not the republicans nominate donald trump, there are pretty good odds now that a good portion of the republican party won't support whoever that party runs for president. now, as somebody who's running in the -- for the democratic nomination, do you look at that on the republican side and say, basically, good riddance. it's about time for the republican party in this country to blow up. let's hope they come back with something better. or are you concerned, because our party has a two-party system and we need both parties to be

strong and sane in order to make this system work? >> well, first of all, i don't necessarily take at value what they say. i think at the end of the day, they probably will come together. but the other point, i think the more -- the deeper point, rachel, is the republican party today has moved very, very far to the right. they are way out of touch with where the american people are. and i think if we had a media in this country, that was really prepared to look at what the republicans actually stood for, rather than quoting every absurd remark of donald trump, talking about -- a republican party talking about hundreds of billions of dollars in tax breaks for the top 0.2%, cuts social security, medicare, medicaid, a party with fewer exceptions doesn't even acknowledge the reality of climate change, let alone do anything about it.

a party which is not prepared to stand with women for the fight for pay equity, a party that is not prepared to do anything about a broken criminal justice system or a corrupt campaign finance system, i think, to be honest with you, and i just don't, you know, say this retorically, this is a fringe party. this is a fringe party. maybe they get 5 to 10% of the vote. what you really need in this country is a party working with the middle class of this country and a conservative party, that has, you know, is more fiscally conservative. that is where we should be as a country. what the republican party today now is a joke, maintained by a media which really does not force them to discuss their issues. so, that's my two cents on that. >> well, if the -- let me try to get three cents out of you on that. if they're a fringe party and they're a joke and they're no

longer the conservative party they appear to be, they're being propped up by a media that doesn't call them on what it is they're actually offering, does that mean that you would applaud, if the republican party really did blow up, i mean, some people say that the nomination of donald trump and the process they're going through now by which they might nominate him, is enough to maybe destroy that party, maybe end the republican party. do you think that would be a good thing? >> well, i'm not going to give the republican leadership, you know, brilliant ideas on how they can reorganize their party. all i can tell you is that is it absolutely imperative for the future of this country and for future generations that we do not have a republican in the white house, whether it is trump or cruz or anybody else. and one of the things i'm proud of, rachel, and it hasn't gotten, i think, quite the attention that it deserves. is that in national poll after national poll, what you find is that i am leading, you know, people like trump, a poll came out a few days ago, cnn, by 20

points, and a significant larger number than hillary clinton is. so i think one of the points we're trying to get across is if the democratic party wants a strong candidate that will defeat trump or some other republican and beat them badly, i think i am the candidate. because we appeal not only to democrats, but to a lot of independents and actually some republicans as well. >> your campaign has talked about those head-to-head matchups. those hypothetical matchups in november as the case you might make to the superdelegates. we have talked about this before, but since we last spoke, your campaign has gone into more detail about this. tad devine said to greg sergeant at "the washington post" this week that your campaign would try to convince superdelegates to support you on the strength of what you just said there, that you would have a better chance in the general election, that they would try to flip those superdelegates to support you, even if at the convention

you're behind both in the pledged delegates and in the popular vote. i thought that was surprising. i just wanted to find out if that really is your campaign's position. >> look, i don't want to get too deeply into processing. first of all, we hope to be ahead in the delegate count. that's the important thing. but what i do believe is that there are a lot of republicans -- a lot of super delegates who have signed on to hillary clinton a long, long time ago, and then you have other super delegates who are in states where we have won by 20, 30, 40 points, and the people in those states are saying, you know what? we voted for bernie sanders by 30 or 40 points, you've got to support him at the convention. so we'll see what happens down the line. but our main task right now is, in fact, to come out of this whole process after california with more delegates than secretary clinton. >> are you working now on lobbying some of the super delegates? we should say super delegates,

talking about elected officials and party leaders. are you working now on trying to persuade them? >> yes, we are. we are. we have started off by going to those states, you know, states like utah, states like hawaii, states that have given us very large victories and trying to get to those people and saying, you know what? your state voted overwhelmingly for us. listen to what your state has to say. >> senator sanders, i promise, i won't ask you only process questions here, but i do want to ask you about something that arose this week from your campaign that i degree with on factual grounds. and i'll tell you what it is. your campaign said this week that secretary clinton is leading overall, basically because you chose not to compete in eight states. in arkansas, alabama, louisiana, mississippi, georgia, texas, virginia, tennessee. and the reason i say i take

factual issue with that is because, you know, i saw the footage of your rallies in texas and virginia. at least we reported you were first on the ground ahead of clinton in alabama, virginia, texas, tennessee. why is your campaign now saying that you essentially didn't try in those states? >> all right, rachel, you say you don't want to talk about processes, this is exactly what we're talking about. one person said that. i don't know the context. i think perhaps what tad meant by that is that we did not put a lot of money into tv advertising. that we knew those states would be difficult states for us and we used our resources elsewhere. although to be honest with you, we put a lot of money into south carolina and we did poorly. so, of course, we did compete in mississippi, alabama, not a whole lot, to be honest with you. but i think what tad was meaning is that we did not put a lot of resources into those states. >> you told me in january, you

articulated it a few other places that the democratic party really needs to run a 50-state strategy. and people in places like south carolina and mississippi, specifically, need strong democratic campaigns there, so their voices get heard. how do you square that with not running that hard in a place like mississippi? >> well, i will tell you how. if there were -- if we had a lot longer time, that's exactly what i would do. but the difficult choices you have to make, right now i'm in wisconsin. well, you know what? i should be in new york. i should be new jersey. i should be in california. but what you have to do in the midst of a campaign is to say, where is our time, where are our resources best allocated if we're going to win this thing. truthfully, we knew from day one, we were never going to win in mississippi and alabama. but the point you make is a different point. it is a correct point. i believe that starting yesterday, the democratic party has got to start planting flags in all of those states. now, they may not win it in 2016

or 2018, but you're never going to win it unless you begin somewhere, unless you mobilize the grassroots in those states. come forward with good, strong candidates. so, it's really not a contradiction. i do believe very strongly, and if elected president, i will create a situation where the dnc is a 50-state party. you cannot ignore half the states in america, including those states who are -- have the poorest people, the highest levels of unemployment, the worst health care systems in the country. democrats have got to pay attention to all 50 states. >> senator sanders, will you stay with us for just a moment? i have more to ask you, i promise. >> okay. >> our conversation with senator sanders continues in just a moment. stay with us. risk of stroke due to afib,har a type of irregular heartbeat not caused by a heart valve problem. but i won't accept is getting out there

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joining us once again from madison, wisconsin, is senator bernie sanders. thank you again for being with us tonight. appreciate it. so, sir, you tweeted today that it was, quote, shameful -- that was the word you used, when donald trump said this to my colleague, chris matthews, here on msnbc. >> how do you ban abortion? how do you actually do it? >> well, you know, you'll go back to a position like they had, where people will perhaps go to illegal places -- >> yeah. >> but you have to ban it. >> the answer is that there has to be some form of punishment.

>> for the woman? >> yeah. there has to be some form. >> ten cents, ten years? what? >> that i don't know. >> after the word spread that donald trump had made those remarks today about abortion, that a woman needs to be punished if she seeks an abortion and abortion should be banned, you said today that was shameful. what is shameful about it? >> well, i think it is -- shameful is probably understating that position. first of all, to me, and i think to most americans, women have the right to control their own bodies and they have the right to make those personal decisions themselves. but to punish a woman for having an abortion is beyond comprehension. i just -- you know, one would say, what is. donald trump's mind, except, we're tired of saying that. i don't know what world this person lives in. so obviously from my perspective, and if elected president, i will do everything that i can to allow women to make that choice. and have access to clinics all

over this country, so that if they choose to have an abortion, they will be able to do so. the idea of punishing a woman, that is just, you know, beyond comprehension. >> mr. trump is making headlines on this issue today, obviously, because of what he said. it's sort of taken the media day by storm. that said, i think there may be a case to be made. and i love just your response to this, your perspective on this, that his opponent, senator ted cruz is more extreme on this issue. and i say that in part because one of his national co-chairs on his pro-lifers for cruz coalition is a man named troy newman, who once wrote a book who said that abortion providers should be executed. is ted cruz even further out on this issue than donald trump is? >> well, you know, you're living in crazy world there. and that is why, you know, the republican party, if they continue in this direction, will be, as i mentioned a moment ago, a fringe party. look, they have nothing to say.

all they can appeal is to a small number of people who feel very rabid, very rabid about a particular issue, whether it's abortion or maybe whether it's gay marriage. that is their constituency. they have nothing of substance. you know, you mentioned a moment ago, rachel, that the media is paying attention to donald trump. duh. no kidding? once again, every stupid remark will be broadcast, you know, for the next five days. but what is donald trump's position on raising the minimum wage? well, he doesn't think so. what is donald trump's position on wages in america? well, he said in a republican debate, he thinks wages are too high. what's donald trump's position on taxes? well, he wants to give billionaire families like himself hundreds of billions of dollars in tax breaks. what is donald trump's position on climate change? oh, he thinks it's a hoax, perpetrated -- shock of all shock -- by the chinese. you know, on and on it goes. but because media is what media is today, any stupid, absurd

remark made by donald trump becomes the story of the week. maybe, just maybe, we might want to have a serious discussion about the serious issues facing america. donald trump will not look quite so interesting in that context. >> are you suggesting, though, that the media shouldn't be focusing on his call to potentially jail women who have abortions, because that's another stupid comment? >> i am saying that every day he comes up with another stupid remark, absurd remark. of course, it should be mentioned, but so should trump's overall position. how much talk do we hear about climate change, rachel? and trump? any? >> he's said that he cares more about nuclear climate change, which is a term he's invented. >> nuclear climate change? >> that's his -- that's what he comes up with when he's asked on the subject. >> i see. all right, well, all i'm saying is that trump is nobody's fool. he knows how to manipulate the media. and you say an absurd thing

the&ttheand the media is all over it. my concern is that today in america, you've got millions of people who are struggling economically. they want to know how we're going to expand the middle class. overwhelmingly, people think that we should raise the minimum wage. the vast majority of people think that climate change is real and a threat to our planet. they want to do something about that. what do we do? the vast majority of the people think the wealthiest people in this country should start paying their fair share of taxes. but if we don't discuss those issues, it creates the climate for people like donald trump, to do much better than he realize has a right to do. >> senator, you have been a fierce critic of the influence of the wealthy and big business on our politics. not just on who gets their way, but who sets the agenda. but as republican legislatures and governors have recently been weighing new laws that are

discrimina discriminatory, particularly against lbgt people in north carolina, in missouri, in indiana, big business, including bank of america today in north carolina has weighed in strongly against those discriminatory laws. do you think those businesses should butt out of those issues? is it inappropriate for them to try to wield political influence, even when they do it in a progressive way? >> well, you know, look, they have -- when we look at politics in america, you have ceos of major corporations who have children who are gay, who have friends who are gay, whose wives or daughters have had abortions. they live in the real world. and they're responding to this type of very right-wing reactionary policies and i understand that and i appreciate that. . when i talk about money in politics, what i talk about is the koch brothers and billionaires spending hundreds of millions of dollars along with wall street to create a

situation where politics, politicians will be elected, who represent the wealthy and the powerful. >> one of the issues that the koch brothers and their networks have supported in a way that i think has been stealth and very effective is an issue concerning veterans. and as you were the former chairman of the veterans committee in the senate, and you worked closely with senator john mccain on a number of issues. he's praised you in this campaign, you've talked about your ability to work with him on veteran issues. but right now senator mccain is pushing a proposal to effectively privatize parts of the v.a., which is something that the koch brothers have tried to push. what's your response to that? >> of course. categorically disagree. what you have is a group called the concerned veterans of america. they appear on and have appeared on stations like cnn time and

time again, without being identified as being funded by the koch brothers. and what they are doing is taking legitimate criticisms of the v.a. and blowing them up and coming to the conclusion that at least partially, if not totally, we should privatize the v.a. look, this is an issue i have dealt, and what i will tell you is having talked to the american legion and the vfw and the vietnam vets and virtually every veter veterans' organization is what they tell you is once veterans get into the v.a. system, the care is pretty good. it is pretty good. the problem has been getting that -- getting into the v.a. system and also legitimately, people who live 50, 60, 100 miles away, 200 miles away from a v.a. facility. should they have to travel 200 miles to get their health care? the answer is, no, they should not. but the idea of privatize the v.a. would be, in my mind, a

huge mistake and a great disservice to the men and women of this country who have put their lives on the line to defend us. >> do you feel like the way that veterans have advocated for themselves, the way that's changed since the vietnam era and through to today's generation of iraq and afghanistan veterans, do you feel like there's any lessons there in terms of bringing about social change in this country? you talk about a political revolution and people getting their voices heard, particularly people who otherwise get boxed out of a system stacked against them. have veterans in a way sort of shown us a way around some of those structural barriers to political change? >> i think you have organizations that do a very good job. and obviously, i know them all, because i was chairman of the committee, who represent veterans interests. what i don't think we have at this point is the kind of grassroots activism at the local level that we should be having. so there's a lot of good groups in washington, the dav, the vfw,

the american legion, the vietnam vets and others who are really there, who are fighting for veterans' rights. but i would like to see more grassroots activism take place. >> one last question for you, senator. i know your time is tight today. and it is about your prodigious fund-raising. after those huge wins this weekend in those three caucus states, we know that within something like 24 hours, your state had raised $4 million. you have shown an incredible ability to tap large numbers of people for small amounts of money that really, really add up, and you've got essentially infinite resources to stay in this campaign as long as you want, no matter what else happens. i have to ask, though, if you have thought about whether or not you will at some point turn your fund-raising ability toward helping the democratic party more broadly, to helping their campaign committees for the house and the senate and for other elections. >> well, right now, rachel, as you are more than aware, our job is to -- what i'm trying to do

is to win the democratic nomination. and i'll tell you something. i never in a million years, rachel, would have believed that we could have received over 6 million individual campaign contributions, averaging 27 bucks a piece. a very different way of raising money than secretary clinton has pursued. so right now, we are enormously appreciative. you're right, without that type of support, we would not be where we are right now. we would not be able to continue this campaign, to the democratic convention. so i am just blown away and very appreciative of all of the kind of support that we have gotten from grassroots america. >> obviously your priority is the nomination. but secretary clinton has been fund-raising for both the nomination and for the democratic party. at some point, do you foresee a time in this campaign where you'll start doing that? >> we'll see. right now, again, our focus is on winning the nomination.

secretary clinton has access to kinds of money that we don't, that we're not even interested in. so let's take it one step at a time and the step we're in right now is to win the democratic nomination. >> vermont senator, candidate for the democratic presidential nomination, bernie sanders, thank you so much for your time tonight. i know you're stretched very thin. thank you. >> take care, rachel. thank you. >> this is the end of a big night around here, right? john kasich hour, the donald trump hour, the long-format interview with hillary clinton, now this long-format interview with bernie sanders. all in one night! it's very busy. in just a minute, i'm going to be joined by steve kornacki and chris matthews and chuck todd and many others, as well, to try to digest what has just happened around here, because i think we've changed the news. we'll be right back. stay with us. ke? is it becoming a better professor by being a more adventurous student?

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enter the x1 voice remote. now when someone says... show me funny movies. watch discovery. record this. voila. remotes you are back. the x1 voice remote is here. x1 customers get your voice remote by visiting xfinty.com/voiceremote. you're not going to stick to this pledge to back the nominee? you sticking to that? >> well -- i have not been treated properly. >> honestly, i don't think he's going to be the nominee. nobody's going to have enough delegates to go to the convention. >> how can they give up millions of people that really feel disenfranchised? >> because they don't like you. >> whoever emerges is going to be on the wrong side of what our country needs to do. >> this is a fringe party. it is a fringe party. >> do you believe in -- do you believe in punishment for abortion? yes or no? as a principle?

>> yeah, there has to be some form. >> ten years or ten cents? >> that i don't know. >> to punish a woman for having an abortion is beyond comprehension. >> i'm constantly just taken aback at the kinds of things that he advocates for. >> somebody hits us with an -- you wouldn't fight back? >> to drop it into a community -- >> first of all, you don't want to say, take everything off the table. >> no, just nuclear. >> you would be a bad negotiator if you do. >> just nuclear. >> it doesn't show he's strong. it shows he's dangerously wrong. he's in over his head. >> good evening. i'm steve kornacki and it has been a massive night of exclusive interviews right here on msnbc. we've had town hall events, featuring donald trump and john kasich on the republican side, and one-on-one interviews with hillary clinton and bernie sanders on the democratic side. i'm here now with rachel maddow and chuck todd. they spoke with those candidates today. chris matthews is also going to join us. first, we have to talk about what is arguably the biggest news to come out of everything that was on our air tonight.

donald trump's comments on abortion, which have now ignited a firestorm on the left and the right. this after the gop front-runner said that women who undergo abortions should face punishment if abortions were to be outlawe outlawed. >> if you say abortion is a crime or abortion is murder, you have to deal with it under the law. should abortion be punished? >> well, people in certain parts of the republican party and conservative republicans would say, yes, they should be punished. >> what about you? >> i would say it's a very serious problem and it's a problem we have to decide on. it's very -- >> but you're for banning it. >> are you going to say, well, put them in jail? >> i'm asking you. you say you want to ban it. what's that mean? >> i am against -- i am pro-life, yes. >> what is -- how do you ban abortion? how do you actually do it? >> el, you'll go back to a position they had, where people will perhaps go to illegal places -- >> yeah! >> but you have to ban it. >> the church makes their moral judgments, but you running for

president of the united states will be chief executive of the united states. do you believe in punishment for abortion? yes or no? as a principle? >> the answer is that, there has to be some form of punishment. >> for the woman? >> yeah. there has to be some form. >> ten cents, ten years, what? >> that i don't know. >> why not? >> i don't know. >> you take positions on everything else. >> i do take positions on everything else. it's a very complicated position. >> that was this afternoon. we should tell you that tonight donald trump has released this statement, clarifying those remarks. he says, quote, if congress were to pass legislation making abortion illegal and the federal courts upheld this legislation or any state were permitted to ban abortion under state and federal law, the doctor or any other person performing this illegal act upon a woman should be -- would be held legally responsible. not the woman. the woman is a victim in this case, as is the life in her womb. my position has not changed. like ronald reagan, i am pro-life, with exceptions. that is the -- that is from donald trump tonight. and chris matthews joins me now on the phone.

so, chris, this exchange you had with donald trump on the subject of abortion, i got the impression listening to it is that that this line of questioning you asked him about, he'd never even thought about it before? >> i think a lot of people not in politics take a position, because they believe abortion is wrong morally. but i think political people usually consider what that implementation is. what would you do to ban abortion? would you sanction it, outlaw it? criminalize it? and i think a lot of politicians have gone over that in their mind and made some sort of judgment or discernment there. and people who have not run for office have not. and i think he's an example of that. >> and it was a striking exchange as well, simply because i think you pointed this out. this is a guy who usually gives pretty emphatic and clear answers on things. it took you an awful lot of probing to get that out of him. >> i know.

and, you know, i thought he was -- it was interesting on the two topics we got into, some real focus on, that and the use of nuclear weapons, the potential use of nuclear weapons in fighting isis, he didn't want to take off the table the use of nuclear weapons, even in the case of europe. i think most political people who have run for caucus are aware, you don't talk about the use of nuclear weapons. it's one of the times you may not say no comment, but you effectively say that, because it's not something you ever really want to discuss publicly, when you would actually use the terrible weapon we used back in '45 against japan. first of all, you don't use it. it's there. but he was right about the stockpiles. we do have the stockpiles. some sort of residue as our mutual assured destruction from the cold war. but you don't talk about it. and i think that's one of those learning experiences, that it's hard to do on the main stage that he's on right now. >> you know, it wasn't too long after news of the interview broke, we aired it tonight, but

word of the abortion comments in particular got out long before that. he issued a statement, trying to walk it back, trying to clarify it, saying, no, i do not believe women should be prosecuted, should be punished at all, if they were to participate in an abortion. did you get a sense, in the course of that broadcast, during the commercial breaks, maybe after it, did you get a sense that he was aware or the people around him were aware that he had stirred up this firestorm? >> well, i didn't know he was. i thought that it was a, you know, quite a statement by him. and i thought that it was going to be troubling. i don't know him that well. but i guess i assumed that. but, you know, you're always asked questions, you're never quite sure how they're going to resound. this is a very troubling issue, a lot of people, abortion rights. and people are for abortion rights and they have second thoughts about it sometimes. you know, it's not a simple issue. but in terms of the law, it's

very simple. is it legal or illegal? and if it's illegal, what should be the sanction? and if it isn't sanctioned, are you really banning it? you know, i think these are questions we should all try to at least come to grips, you know? >> all right. chris matthews, it was a fascinating exchange and i'm glad you pressed him on that, because eventually it did get out something very interesting here and something making an awful lot of news and kicking up an awful lot of discussion. chris matthews, thank you for the time. we appreciate it. >> thank you, steve. bye. >> that was chris matthews joining us by phone. i should tell you, we planned to have chris joining us from a studio tonight. there have been some travel issues for him getting out of wisconsin, swoo we had to talk him by phone. again, that was chris matthews after that fascinating interview with donald trump today. stay with us. rachel maddow and chuck todd will join me to talk about what john kasich had to say at his town hall tonight, plus bernie sanders and hillary clinton, too.

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say he didn't say it or he was misquoted or whatever, but i don't think so. i don't think that's an appropriate response. >> mayaing aning a aning a anin someone shows us who they are, believe them. and once again he has showed us who he is. >> the other candidates' reaction to donald trump's comments on abortion. with us, rachel maddow and chuck todd. chuck, he made the comments to chris earlier. he's now trying to walk them back. saying, no, women should not be punished. it should only be the doctor. is there political damage here for donald trump and what is it? >> i think there is. you know, normally, i would say, if this was any other candidate, i would say, of course there's political damage. but with donald trump, you never fully know things that should be damaging to most political figures aren't always. look, he did a remarkable thing today. when you've got the head of the march for life and cecile richards, essentially, is on the same page when it comes to

criticizing donald trump, that is a remarkable feat in american politics, that you can somehow unite the pro-life and pro-choice movements on this particular point. but steve, i am sensing, and that i think this could be the tipping point. throw in, if he does lose wisconsin, throw this in. i think you are going to see more and more republicans decide, better to risk losing without trump than losing with trump. but the damage trump causes. look at what we've seen. over the last 24 to 72 hours, i don't know if -- i think there has been at least three different statements he's made, where either he had to walk it back, a republican had to distance themselves, or some combination of the two. that's what the general election is going to look. and oh, by the way, he's apparently trying to become more presidential. >> yeah, and -- >> this is a -- this is a -- this is spiraling downward, quickly. >> and there was also this afternoon, polling, new polling out of wisconsin that shows now, ted cruz into a clear lead over donald trump there ahead of that vote on tuesday. rachel, i said this to chris

matthews, but it really seemed to me, we were watching a presidential candidate winging it there. it seems like this was the first time he'd even been asked that question or thought about it. >> i have to say, credit to chris matthews. there's one thing -- chris has been doing this for so long, and he has this very particular style. and he is -- and i mean this in a completely positive way, he is the great interpreter. he does it in a way that is not insulting or denigrating at all to whoever he's talking to, but he can interpret almost every word you say, because he can tell what you're about to say and he wants to steer you in a different direction. and being so bold and comfortable in that style, he's one of the only people i've ever seen absolutely bamboozle to donald trump, to the point where trump actually had to think a new thought -- you could almost see the smoke coming out of his ears -- when chris pressed on him whether, should there be punishment. he came up with the answer he wanted to give it. we know he's never said it before. he cooked it up right there on the spot.

he now has to live with it. i think it was a remarkable interviewing technique by chris matthews. i think it will sort of be studied as such. i don't think there's anybody else in our business that could have gotten that out of him in that moment. but to what chuck was saying about walking it back. one thing i'm struck by with donald trump, you think back to the start of his campaign and all the other stuff we thought would hurt him that didn't hurt him. think back to the "john mccain isn't a war hero" comment, the most amazing thing to me is he never walked it back or paid a price to it. now he's become such a professional politician, he walks stuff back all the time. which i think does undercut his sort of mega man, alpha personality, which has led him into this south american strong-man type campaign. >> steve, the other thing he's done, though, the the anger in the conservative movement against trump, you know, it's been -- it's really growing. and the anger is this. the other thing that was exposed by -- that was exposed today

with drump, at least when i was talking to to some conservative activists is this feeling that he is essentially trying to be a caricature of a conservative. and what conservatives believe, what a liberal caricature, for instance. they feel as if trump is insulting their positions, when it comes to whether it's, you know, he's going to be tough on immigration, so he's going to build a wall, a bigger wall, or he's going to ban all muslims. that he goes to an extreme position. and so now you have this growing anger in the conservative movement going, hey, wait a minute, he's -- he's sort of -- he's playing games with us. he's embarrassing us. now, we do need to try to stop him. so, i think that could be happening here now. >> no, it was the -- there was the dispute -- the debate over the ted cruz's wife and the campaign tactics near the cory lewandowski stuff, the new poll, now this. wisconsin votes in five days,

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by visiting xfinty.com/voiceremote. going after mexicans as rapists and criminals, insulting women, barring muslims. you know, that reflects a certain strain of belief within the republican party. >> the republican party today has moved very, very far to the right. they are way out of touch with where the american people are. this is a fringe party. it is a fringe party. >> back now, dissecting everything we heard the last few hours here on msnbc.

rachel maddow, chuck todd, still with me. so rachel, on the democratic side. you interviewed both of these candidates tonight. here's what jumped out at me from these two interviews. we talk about donald trump and these comments. there's so much discussion about media's coverage of donald trump, is it too much, are they covering him the wrong way? this was really interesting to me, because this subject came up. you asked him about donald trump's abortion comments. you asked hillary clinton. hillary clinton, it seems, went out of her way in her answer to you to say, this is something the press needs to be covering, they need to be pressing him on this, getting out there on what he says on this. you ask the same thing to bernie sanders and he says, eh, the press should mention this, but this is just a stupid thing donald trump says. basically, he's saying, focus on something else. two very different views of what the significance of this. >> and actually, it happened, chronological chronologically, in the reverse order. because i ended up having this interview with hillary clinton, and then donald trump made his comments, then i had an interview with bernie sanders, and then i went back out into the streets of new york city and found hillary clinton again in order to get her comment on trump. so bernie sanders had already

told me at that point when i had asked him about trump's comments, he basically said, yes, they're terrible, here's all the reasons i disagree, but everything trump says gets too much media coverage. every stupid thing he says. i said, are you sure this is just a stupid thing that he said that the media should be igno ignoring? >> he said, all that climate change and everything else should be paid attention to more. i put that to hillary clinton and i said, are we giving this too much attention and she absolutely rejected that and had the opposite take. so in part, i guess it's an analysis of whether the media coverage is the responsible thing to do with donald trump or an irresponsible thing, in that it's fueling him. and i think bernie sanders is saying, listen, i would rather talk about the minimum wage than abortion rights. and hillary clinton is saying, this is just as central an issue as anything else. >> and chuck, a minute ago, you were talking about wisconsin on tuesday, potentially as a turning point in the republican race if trump loses, if he loses big there. if you talk to the sanders

people, they're saying wisconsin is a turning point in the democratic race. they say sanders will come from behind, maybe win big there. he's going to get momentum for new york, for pennsylvania, for some of these bigger states, still to come. what do you make of that argument the sanders' campaign is putting out there? >> you know, i think he could -- he needs to buy a big victory. it can't be just a small victory now, he's spending the type of money in wisconsin. he's out-spending her 6-1. that's sort of type of figures he did in new hampshire, where he bought a landslide. i think he has a landslide to need an impact. but it's a turning point, only if it does lead to him pulling an upset in new york. by the way, i want to -- two quick takeaways from rachel's interviews. number one, boy does hillary clinton want to run against donald trump. she seems almost enthusiastic about it. there's a -- it's an odd way of saying it, but she's more animated in a way that i've seen her when contrasting against

anybody else. and the second thing is, sanders is getting cranky about so many process questions. but the problem is, i mean, are the campaigns on the same page? this happens a lot. the campaign says one thing, rachel, myself, somebody else, presents it to sanders and he throws his aides under the bus. it's sort of a -- it's a -- it's just a pattern i've noticed with sanders. >> rachel, the process questions and his reaction to you jumped out at me, too. in part, you're asking him something, it's obviously more than legitimate. this is a guy who's been out there saying, look, the key to my campaign is we're going to get record voter turnout. he talks about process as part of his message. there hasn't been record voter turnout on the democratic side. he talks about 50-state strategy. you pressed him on that saying, why aren't you competing in mississippi, some of these other states? and he says, in a campaign, you have to be practical and make choices. which has always been the argument that political professionals have made against the 50-state strategy. >> and now his campaign is

starting to say and he's starting to say, i may not win with the people, but maybe i can get the superdelegates to crossover and put it over the top. that's a hard sell. >> rachel maddow and chuck todd, thank you for sticking around. be sure to watch tuesday night as wisconsin voters go to the polls. the stakes are high for both republicans and democrats. our special coverage here on msnbc is going to begin at 5:00 p.m., as the first exit polls become reportable. why do so many businesses rely on the us postal service? because when they ship with us, their business becomes our business. that's why we make more e-commerce deliveries to homes than anyone else in the country. here, there, everywhere. united states postal service priority: you incredible bladder prthat lets from always diyou move like you mean it now comes with an incredible promise. the always discreet double your money back guarantee.

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there will be no more breeding. we're also phasing out orca theatrical shows. they'll continue to receive the highest standard of care available anywhere. and guests can come to see them simply being their majestic selves. inspiring the next generation of people to love them as you do. cool hand barrack. let's play "hardball." good evening. i'm chris matthews in washington. well, the president has offered a calm but tough criticism of donald trump's statement this week on possession and use of nuclear weapons. >> what do the statements you mention tell us? they tell us that the person who made the statements doesn't know much about foreign policy