we're also phasing out orca theatrical shows. they'll continue to receive the highest standard of care available anywhere. and guests can come to see them simply being their majestic selves. inspiring the next generation of people to love them as you do. cool hand barrack. let's play "hardball." good evening. i'm chris matthews in washington. well, the president has offered a calm but tough criticism of donald trump's statement this week on possession and use of nuclear weapons. >> what do the statements you mention tell us? they tell us that the person who made the statements doesn't know much about foreign policy or

nuclear policy or the korean peninsula or the world, generally. we don't want somebody in the oval office who doesn't recognize how important that is. >> well, we know who he's talking about. it's been one of the most eventful and challenging weeks for donald trump and his campaign so far. the new york business leader has been understandably in damage control since wednesday, when he said women who have an abortion should receive some form of punishment. well, those comments were widely attacked by abortion rights activists and opponents alike. on thursday, trump said, if you answer one question inartfully or incorrectly in some form or you misunderstood it or you misspoke, it ends up being a big story. that doesn't happen with other people. that's trump talking. for those who wish to watch, by the way, the entire block of wednesday's town hall dedicated to the topic of abortion rights, go right now, if you wish, to hardball.msnbc.com. hardball.msnbc.com.

but if you don't want to watch it right now, we'll show it to you in the final segment of the show. but we begin with trump's path forward after a number of challenging days. katy tur is in new york and chris jansing is in milwaukee. and msnbc national correspondent joy reid also joins us. thank you all for joining us right now. first of all, katy, who watches this guy daily and hourly, how is he going to get beyond this week? this has not been a great week, to put it lightly. how does he move past, perhaps, a defeat in wisconsin and regain his sea legs by new york where he should win? >> i think we've asked that question every single time donald trump has run into some controversy or another. and i think the reality is, as we've seen, is that something else will come up. there will be another controversy. the thing is, he is doing the sunday morning talk show circuit at least a little bit this weekend. we already know he's been asked about abortion by cbs, so that's going to make that conversation last a little longer. he's not expected to do well in wisconsin. so that will be a blow.

so donald trump needs to figure out a way to get past this, regain his momentum, and come in strong to new york. but i think the reality is, in order to do that, the campaign is going to probably open up yet another controversy, chris. >> but let me ask you about women. i want you all to talk about this. women and trump. we have numbers that are devastating about him among women. i keep thinking, there are a lot of republican women out there who may have different views on abortion rights than even their husbands have. a new gallup tracking poll, 70% of women nationally across the country have an unfavorable view of trump. and i'm just wondering, how does he deal with the sort of permanent problem of what he has said? >> well, i think part of the issue that he's going to be facing is how he tries to bridge that gap in a general election. right now, the campaign isn't acknowledging that they have a problem. instead, what they're doing is they're saying that he's won women in the past and they believe that he's going to be able to speak directly to women as they go on. if they get to the general election, if they get this nomination, they think they'll be able to change their message

and speak directly to each woman. the issue is, that is a very daunting number. when i've spoken to gop sources about how they are going to deal with that come the election, if donald trump is, in fact, the nominee, and they've admitted that, yes, it's a huge problem. it's one that could put, potentially, hillary clinton in the white house. it worries them about what they're going to try to do to mitigate that is to target older, white women, who have liked donald trump's message, and just try to mitigate the damage they've done with younger women. they're also trying to appeal to white men in large numbers. white men that could potentially be democrats or independents, and they're hoping that the number of men coming in from outside of the party will mitigate the damage they're doing with women, mitigate the damage they're doing with minorities, and be able to lift, then, to wins in states that they would not have otherwise won in. they're talking about states like colorado and pennsylvania, states that have traditionally gone towards the democrats. they believe that they can win those over in the fall.

but it's unclear if that is going to be the case. there's a lot of polling out there that shows that donald trump, if he's facing off against hillary clinton, would lose in a landslide in the electoral college. >> let me go to chris jansing. chris, you know, a couple of times in the midwest, i think it was indiana and in missouri, candidates won elections from the united states senate. not because they were so fantastic as candidates, although some of them were good, is that their opponents said stupid things about legitimate rape and things like that. and they were able to cruise right into office. hillary clinton must be thinking right now, if i just run a regular campaign, not especially charismatic, just successful and competent, this guy is going to hand it to me. >> reporter: look, i just talked to somebody in the clinton campaign in the last 24 hours who said to me, when you have unfavorables with women, nationally, that are above 70%, there's nothing you can do. there is absolutely nothing you can do but try to -- you can't balance that out with white men.

you would have to win 90 to 95% of the white men who vote. i mean, it's impossible. he's going to have to do some sort of major change. and we're certainly not seeing it here in wisconsin. i was talking to a lobbyist. they've been doing internal polling throughout this campaign. he says he's seeing here, for example, it's in the high 70s, but it's interesting, chris, your conversation with donald trump on abortion, for example, the argument has been made to me by several republican insiders here, that it was two levels bad against trump. it was bad on its face, because people didn't like the message. they thought the message was bad. but, it further sort of put a cherry on top of the belief here, that he does not have depth on the issue. and it's why a lot of business people that i talked to feel that that made them nervous. and a couple of them actually brought up the nuclear issue. so i think in a weird way, you know, what the president talked about today, criticizing trump, and the criticism woof heard

from him on abortion, it goes to depth. and those are the kinds of issues that are going to be trouble for him with women, with men, across demographics. >> joy, respond to this. "the washington post" looked at trump's polling among various groups and pointed to red flags. his negatives are huge among moderates, that's moderate republicans, young people, young republicans, african-americans, hispanics, and even white evangelical protestants. according to the "washington post," if donald trump secures the republican presidential nomination, he would start the general election campaign as the least popular candidate to represent either party in modern times. but it might not be too little to stop him. and according to "the new york times," that is scaring many of the republican party right now. quote, republicans who once worried that mr. trump might gain overwhelming momentum in the primaries are now becoming preoccupied with a different grim prospect. that mr. trump might become a kind of zombie candidate, damaged beyond the point of repair, but too late for any of

his rivals to stop him. boy, some headline writer came up with that phrase, because all those tv shows i don't like to watch about zombies, you know, crashing into the village or whatever, coming across the horizon, scaring the hell out of people. there they are using the term and applying it to trump. zombie candidate. >> and "the walking dead" happens to be my favorite show, so i think that's a really good one -- >> oh, my, you and i have to compare taste buds here. >> "the walking dead" is a great show. i think the zombie candidate meme is really true. you look at those groups you cited that he's having so much trouble with. donald trump when he first started out, one of the things you would hear republican consultants say is that he might actually be able to expand the base, because more moderate, nondoctrinaire republicans and former democrats who really aren't doctrinaire on things like lowering the top rate and other chotskis could lower, but now he's doing badly with them. why's he doing so badly in wisconsin? 22.5% white evangelical

protestants in that state, compared to a state like new york who has less than 10% of white evangelicals. it's a state that's tailor-made for ted cruz anyway. but not only has he offended women with hi comments about -- everything from subborning the bullying of a white woman reporter to his feud with megyn kelly to his abortion comments, he actually has shown he's spent zero time studying movement conservative, because for 40 years, the doctrine has been, you don't make the subtext of the anti-abortion movement into text. you don't take it to its logical conclusion, other than akin, you're not supposed to give away the idea that you want to criminalize abortion. you almost infantalize the woman and say, she's a victim, we want to criminalize the provider. so he winds up in this territory. he is this unicorn candidate who is as offensive to movement

conservatives as he is to moderates. he's almost a guy without a country. the one small group of conservatives he has, working class white men, for the most part, are with him in the end. and when you get to new york, he only has less than 10% white evangelical protestants. he could still win new york. >> katy, the issue of the president's race, going at trump in his usual, sarcastic way. he has that way of chuckling quietly in his cheek. like the old press club thing. making fun of him, like he's still a tv barker. and showman. and the way he did it tonight, is trump going to respond to that? would that be his m.o. to come back at obama and try to knock him off again? >> reporter: it certainly has been in the past, but i'm not sure if he's going to be doing that. the next time we're going to see him in the public is tomorrow. potentially he could lash out against the president. but lately, he hasn't really done so. obama's come out a few times and really trashed, if you will, donald trump and his candida candidatesy, but trump has not

responded in every circumstance. when it comes to his base, this is exactly the stuff they like. this is red meat for them. they don't like the president or hillary clinton. they're generally not democrats, or if they are democrats, they're democrats who have been disillusioned by president obama's eight years in office. so when president obama comes out and dismisses him and basically treats his candidacy as if it's a joke, they like donald trump even more. because they don't like the idea of the establishment pushing back. they don't like the idea of people in authority pushing back against their candidate. they take it personally and believe donald trump is fighting for them. but whether he's going to be able to maintain that support on top of all the controversies that are escalating and escalating as we go on, he's only going to face tougher questioning when it comes to policy if we get into the general election. a debate against hillary clinton, you might not like hillary clinton, but she is depth when it comes to policy. and she knows what she's talking about, because she held office

for so long, she was part of the state department, she is daily briefed by her staff, she has a large staff that's making sure she's on top of the issues and she's been in politics for decades. donald trump does not have that depth. if his supporters stick with him, they'll stick with him because they like he's not a politician and they like that he stumbles on things. >> as the weekend progresses, we'll be following out. it seems to be the word for moderate republicans is pro-choice republicans. they're not going to like his comment about punishment, and i don't think any kind of republican, except the crazy far right, not many of them, don't like the idea of an itchy trigger finger when it comes to nuclear weapons. thank you, chris jansing. thank you, katy tur and joy reid. coming up, a forceful president obama and a weekending press conference. the president touts progress made in the nuclear security era. but should a president donald trump take office next year, could we see that progress undone? breaking apart all these relationships made over the years with asia and the middle east. and the battle for wisconsin

just two days away, that primary. the fight is heating up between bernie sanders and hillary clinton. could sanders pull off a victory in the midwest battleground and then go on to challenge hillary clinton in her home base in new york? actually his home base, too. and finally, the entire block of wednesday's town hall dedicated to the topic of abortion rights. that's coming up in the show tonight, the whole block. this is "hardball," the place for politics. oh. henry! oh my. good, you're good. back, back, back. (vo) according to kelley blue book, subaru has the highest resale value of any brand. again. you might find that comforting. love. it's what makes a subaru, a subaru. this is my retirement. retiring retired tires. and i never get tired of it. are you entirely prepared to retire? plan your never tiring retiring retired tires retirement

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welcome back to ha"hardbal." president obama spoke about the proliferation of nuclear plaerls at the conclusion of a two-day nuclear security summit in washington, where leader of more than 20 countries met to discuss the threat of nuclear terrorism. it came just as republican front-runner donald trump seemed open to abandoning the policy of nuclear weapons. he was open to japan, south korea, and saudi arabia to develop weapons of mass destruction, nuclear weapons. let's watch. >> it's been a u.s. policy, though, for decades, to prevent japan from getting nuclear weapons. >> that might be policy, but maybe -- >> south korea as well -- >> but can i be honest with you, maybe it's going to be time to change. because so many people have it, japan and south korea have it. >> so you have no problems with japan and south korea having nuclear weapons? >> at some point we have to say, you know what, we're better off if japan protects itself against this maniac in north korea.

we're better off if south korea is going to start to protect itself. >> saudi arabia? >> saudi arabia, absolutely. >> if you say to japan, yes, it's fine, you get nuclear weapons, south korea, you as well. saudi arabia says, we want them, too. >> it's going to happen anyway. you have so many countries, pakistan, china, russia. you have so many countries that have them. >> this friday evening, president obama was asked about trump's statements. here's what he said. >> what the statements you mention tell us? they tell us that the person who made the statements doesn't know much about foreign policy or nuclear policy or the korean peninsula or the world, generally. our alliance with japan and the republic of korea is one of the foundations, one of the cornerstones of our presence in the asia pacific region. it is underwritten, the peace and prosperity of that region.

and it has prevented the possibilities of a nuclear escalation and conflict between countries that in the past and throughout history have been engaged in hugely destructive conflicts and controversies. so, you don't mess with that. we don't want somebody in the oval office, who doesn't recognize how important that is. >> at our "hardball" town hall meeting on wednesday, trump tried to rule out the use of nuclear weapons in the middle east, even in europe. >> if i was against iraq, i would be the last one to use the nuclear weapons. >> can you take that off the table now? can you tell the middle east we're not using nuclear weapons? >> i would never say that. i would never take any of my cards off the table. >> how about europe? >> i'm not going to take it off the table for anybody -- >> you're not going going to us

europe? >> no, i don't think so. >> why not just say it? >> i am not taking cards off the table. i'm joined by valerie plank, thank you for coming on, who worked to prevent the proliferation of nuclear materials during her time with the agency. and msnbc political analyst, howard fineman, global editorial director of "the huffington post." i want to start with joe and then -- i'll start with valerie. how does this strike you? you spent a good portion of your career in the cia, fighting the prowill have ration, and actually, monitoring any days ago that would proliferate. and here's trump talking about it somewhat casually. i don't want to put words in his mouth. he's looking fatalistically, i think is his phrase. it's fatalistic that japan, the only person to suffer a nuclear brash, hiroshima and nagasaki, would some day get a nuclear program and south korea would get one to bounce off of north korea. he seemed to be somewhat, if not complacent, accepting o of that inevitability. >> hi, chris. thanks for having me on. unbelievable to hear his

statements on this. he just clearly has given no thought whatsoever. his policy of winging it is really catching up with him. it's not working. when he finally released his list of foreign policy advisers, it wasn't varsity, it wasn't jv, it's more like the middle school team. and he's being poorly served. you're absolutely right. he sort of said, big shrug, well, you know, if the rest of the world gets nuclear weapons, what are you going to do? it's going to happen anyway. and that's exactly the wrong stance to take. this nuclear security summit that president obama has convened, pulling together over 50 world leaders to say, we have to do something about this. and they've made progress. it is significant, but i have to say, with 15,000 nuclear weapons still in the world, we still have a ways to go. >> you know, joe, you said during the course of the meeting today with the 50 countries that came to talk about the possible horror of more proliferation, he

said there were discussions on the sidelines. what do you think those discussions were like today among world leader who is came to prevent happening what trump seems a little more less interested in stopping happening? >> well, as president obama said today, the countries around the world care what we think. they pay attention to our elections. it is unnerving to see the presumptive nominee for the republican party saying things like this. overturning 70 years of bipartisan national security strategy. every president since harry truman has tried to stop other countries from getting nuclear weapons. we never encouraged a country to get nuclear weapons. not israel, not france, not even great britain, that invented the bomb with us. so to hear trump saying these kinds of things, cavalierly talking about nuclear use is unnerving, and i'm sure president obama had his hands full trying to reassure our allies, reassure these countries around the world that we're not spiraling out of control. >> you know, howard, all my life, i've argued -- or a good part of my life i've argued with

people, that not knowing something isn't a statement of -- a lack of intelligence. people can know a lot about certain things. i listen to all-night radio talking about sports, and people know what jimmy rawlins' latest contract should be, people you can't believe they know about, third string contract. and i think trump knows a lot about building buildings on fifth avenue. he's a smart guy. but there are areas he hasn't given much thought. abortion rights. and here, saying the phrase, "i'm not taking it off the table." that phrase has been used most frequently in the last ten years, i'm not taking off table putting ground troops in the middle east to fight isis, to fight al qaeda. here he was using that same phrase about nuclear weapons, not taking it off the table. well, you know, it's table stakes. if it's on the table, you might just use it. that's the problem. >> i'm going to guess here he knows more about the different level of bathroom fixtures for hotels than he knows about nuclear issues.

>> and the percentage take in roulette versus blackjack versus ba baccarat. he would know that. >> and construction unions in new york. >> the mob. he probably knows more about the mob. >> this is a classic and dangerous lack of knowledge by a man who claims he wants to be president of the united states, sit in that building behind you right now. >> explain why he didn't do a murder board, why didn't he practice? >> he's his own murder board, he says. he talks to himself. and i can tell you -- >> four hours today with experts. >> i was working the sidelines today, and i talked to a top member of the communist party leadership, who was here. he was not in the room with barack obama, but he was with the delegation, big-time. >> which party leadership? >> china, sorry. the chinese are looking at donald trump with a mixture of amusement and horror. >> yeah. >> i've got to get back to valerie on this. you worked all those years, what do you think the people in the agency, the cia are thinking

when they hear discussions about, i don't want to take nuclear weapons off the table. or, you know, maybe japan will end up having a weapon and we'll have to live with that fact. your thought? >> yeah. probably the same reaction as the high-ranking communist leader. amusement and horror, at the same time. it's absolutely frightening. in fact, across the board, with the presidential nominees, we are not seeing enough discussion of this truly existential issue. you have bernie sanders, who's pulling the in tens of thousands of college students and, you know, they're all for free college education, great. and health care. they only have the vaguest notion that perhaps, to end world war ii, we dropped a bomb on japan. there really is a huge gap of knowledge. and no matter what you care about, if you don't get this one right, none of the other ones matter. >> and we were the only country ever to do it. so the rest of the world has

their ears bricked up when they talk about it. good to see you, valerie. up next, getting testy. the battle between hillary clinton and bernie sanders is heating up, as the campaigns head the to wisconsin on tuesday and new york coming up two weeks from tuesday, which is going to be the big apple for both of them. by the way, they are both new yorkers, in very different ways. this is "hardball," the place for politics. ♪ if you have moderate to severe plaque psoriasis isn't it time to let the real you shine through? introducing otezla, apremilast. otezla is not an injection, or a cream. it's a pill that treats plaque psoriasis differently. some people who took otezla saw 75% clearer skin after 4 months. and otezla's prescribing information has no requirement for routine lab monitoring. don't take otezla if you are allergic to any of its ingredients. otezla may increase the risk of depression. tell your doctor if you have a history of depression or suicidal thoughts, or if these feelings develop. some people taking otezla reported weight loss.

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bernie! >> and -- and if that speech is so great, i think the american people have the right to hear it! >> that's the great bernie sanders. welcome back to "hardball." that was bernie sanders taking on hillary clinton over her paid speeches, with a crowd of over 18,000 people this thursday. actually, this thursday in the bronx. things are really heating up in the democrats' fight for the nomination, again, while hillary clinton was campaigning in new york, hillary clinton -- she was interrupted by protesters supporting bernie sanders, chanting, if she wins, we lose. that's an old line. >> they've always said yes. >> oh, i know, the bernie people came to say that. we're very sorry you're leaving! i have earned 9 million votes in this election. already! i have 1 million more votes than donald trump and i have 2.5

million more votes than bernie sanders. and secretary clinton was questioned over donations by a green peace activist while working the rope line, secretary clinton snapped at the young lady. >> well, following that exchange, the sanders' campaign released a statement saying, the truth is that secretary clinton has relied heavily on funds from lobbyists working for the oil, gas, and coal industry. according to an analysis by greenpeace, 57 oil, gas, and coal vi lobbyists have directly contributed to clinton's campaign. the clinton campaign countered by saying, the money in question is from individuals who work for these companies. by the same metric, bernie sanders has taken more than

$50,000 on this campaign for individuals working for the oil and gas companies. ann, what i thought was interesting, you'll have to explain this, how hillary clinton exploited and took advantage of donald trump's comment about punishing woman who choose to have an abortion and turned that against bernie. >> yeah, so, so both clinton and sanders expressed outrage at what trump had said. but, the way trump, the way sanders' did it was to say that's awful and now can we get back to talk about income inequality. it's a distraction, the kerfuffle over trump's comments about abortion was a distraction from what he called the serious issues? that just gave hillary clinton a gigantic opening. you could drive a -- >> that women's rights are -- they're germane to this debate. >> and she actually did it very subtly and quietly, unlike the rope line interaction with the greenpeace activist when you saw her shaking her finger and

really getting angry. she said, i think women's right to choose is a serious issue. and that is, that's the zone where she is actually trying to operate here. but, you can see in that greenpeace interaction and in a couple of other things that have happened this week, the way that the sanders' supporters and sanders himself are getting under her skin and they've got 2 1/2 weeks to go until the new york primary. >> warfare, like those gladiator movies, one guy has a stick and the other guy has a little knife. her weapon against him is he takes positions on gun rights that don't fit with the liberal and progressive agenda, and here she has, with women, who are a big part of her constituency, he's not taking us seriously and our concerns about our right to choice. >> right. >> whereas bernie goes after, always on ideology, she's in bed with the big people, she takes speeches from goldman sachs, it's always with ideological for

him. >> and look at us who have kids or young adult kids, whatever, they are much more, black, white, idealistic about this sort of thing. all the ethical questions around hillary clinton, trouble. >> the only thing they know about money is the money they owe. it's easy to go to a young person in their early 20s or early 30s, what do you owe? what do you think of capitalism? i don't like being a debtor. >> and hillary clinton's argument on that is that the bernie sanders college plan for free college is pie in the sky. >> that's not what kids think. >> it is not what kids think. what would you rather have? free or -- >> any had 100,000, i would listen to somebody -- a lot like the vietnam war. at the time we were all face 1a classification, they come along and say, we're going to get that rid of that war. >> bernie sanders has a wish

list. we're going to get everything and it's not going to cost anything. young people love that. older folks say, who's going to pay the bills? that's what i they'll vote for hillary clinton, because she's more pragmatic and does deal with the details. they've also seen her struggle for over 20 years now, in and around washington, against these -- >> whatever happened to don't trust anybody over 30? he's 70 -- he's pushing 75. >> we all got over 30, you know? >> i'm talking about the kids. very heart warmthing to see young people following a guy who's 70 years old. >> i'm old too. i think he's got kind of a tony bennett thing. he's already gone around her a number of times and back to the -- >> he's a classic. >> that's a nice statement. as tony bennett is. thank you, tony page and ann guerin. much more ahead as our roundtable comes here next. you're watching "hardball," the place for politics. sweet taste! prilosec otc. one pill each morning. 24 hours. zero heartburn.

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hi. i'm richard lui with your hour's

top stories. a busy day on the 2016 trail. donald trump rallying earlier in wisconsin, telling voters there that ted cruz cannot be trusted to make america great again. trump working to shrink cruz's ten-point lead ahead of tuesday's primary. cruz and john kasich stumping across wisconsin today, same goes for hillary clinton and bernie sanders. they held several events today with voters before they attended a dinner for the wisconsin democratic party which starts in about 30 minutes. for now, back to "hardball." >> isil has already used chemical weapons, including mustard gas in syria and iraq. there is no doubt that if these mad men ever got their hands on nuclear bomb or nuclear material, they most certainly would use it to kill as many innocent people as possible. >> welcome back to "hardball."

that was president obama today, outlining the grave risk of nuclear materials getting into the hands of terrorists, as he addressed more than 50 global leaders at a nuclear summit today. the event followed the deadly attack in brussels that left more than 30 dead and hundreds injured. and as msnbc has reported, some of the suspects in those attacks had tracked the movements of a top nuclear scientist in belgium, so they were looking for something nuclear. joining me right now is the "hardball" roundtable. howard fineman is back, editorial director of "the huffington post." tara mahler. >> mahler. >> mahler, is a former cia military analyst, who deserves better pronunciation from me. and shane harris is senior intelligence and national security correspondent. shane, you first. how did you read the president's sort of cool-hand barack thing. he didn't get belittled, but used trump's unfamiliarity with the nuclear discussion. >> he has no familiarity with the nuclear discussion.

i think this was an important moment for the president to point out the differences he sees between him and candidate trump, for sure. and it was an appropriate place to do it considering this is what this whole summit has been about, trying to emphasize what the united states is doing as a leader in this area. and the president wanted to point out, look, you really haven't studied the issues here, trump. >> what it reminded me of is trump is really good at saying, you can walk away from any deal. but these are 50 to 70-year-old deals. these are deals that have kept nato together. and to act like you can walk, he takes that attitude. i can walk if i want to. >> it demonstrated no understanding of historical context. it demonstrated no understanding of long -- histories behind long agreements like the nuclear proliferation agreement. >> and why japan doesn't want to have nuclear weapons. >> why certain countries don't want to have nuclear weapons. it demonstrates no understanding of the international context in which he's discussing some of these issues. and to be frank, when you look at it with regard to nuclear terrorism and some of the rhetoric he uses with regards to some of the strategies he wants to use to face terrorism, it

shows no understanding for the international context, both with non-state actors or state actors. >> like one of those movies, how would you like to die? now, you don't want many countries with buttons. pakistan is dangerous enough. you don't want anymore countries getting nuclear buttons. >> here's the thing at the intersection of nuclear policy and politics in america, it's one thing for donald trump to -- in a republican primary campaign, to squash marco rubio or chris christie -- >> for big ears -- >> for whatever, and play that child game. >> little marco. >> what he doesn't realize is that every president since john f. kennedy has gone to the congress or gone to the american people and said, my number one priority is to prevent the spread of nuclear weapons. your producer will -- >> including ronald reagan. >> your producer, will robby, put together a historical set of clips i just watched. kennedy, johnson, nixon, carter, reagan, clinton, obama. every single -- george w. bush. every single one of them

committed, deepdeeplildeeplily, mightily on the topic of nuclear proliferation. you can't throw that out -- >> why did shane -- shane, why does donald trump lack that intuition that the most important thing you do -- talk about do no harm. make sure there's no nuclear war on your watch. >> the first thing he wants to do is let the world know he's willing to use these weapons. he's hinted in the past week that he would be willing to use tactical nuclear weapons against isis. i was actually talking to a trump adviser this week, trying to make the case that, well, tactical nuclear weapons are different than strategic nuclear weapons. >> how are they? they're tens or hundreds of kilotons. >> a distinction to try to make in a campaign. >> and there's no understanding. he seems to think the bigger talk you have, this is going to make your enemies fear you more and make things better. and in international relations, when you make statements like this, this aggressive, provocative rhetoric, it can create spirals of aggressive behavior between states and he's provoking people to take actions, both international actors like terrorist groups,

and states themselves, that can actually be more detrimental -- >> why would we want saudi arabia with the -- you know, the older religious people running that country, a theocracy, having a nuclear weapon, anymore we'd want iran to have one? >> exactly, we don't. and what he's tara's saying, he's spelling out a recipe for proliferation. this summit was about countering that. all of our policies are about countering that. >> barry goldwater lost an election because people thought he had an itchy trigger finger on nuclear weapons. >> this goes beyond the topic of nuclear power, it goes to donald trump's judgment, which people are going to now judge. >> moderate republicans are paying attention. >> i think so. >> and their wives are paying attention. moderate men and women who are republicans. people who are pro-choice in their tendencies and very much anti-war. the roundtable has been great. tara maller, just like norman maller, right? it's my eyes. shane harris, thank you. shane harris, thank you, and howard, of course, my friend. "hardball" back after this.

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and in buffalo, where medicine meets the future. let us help grow your company's tomorrow - today - at business.ny.gov welcome back to "hardball." you want to stay tuned right now to msnbc this weekend for a special documentary on the threat of terrorism. my colleague, lawrence o'donnell, hosts "isis and the internet." let's take a look. >> now jihadist groups are releasing ever-more-sophisticated videos, month after month. their main goal, recruitment, pulling young people to their cause. in the 1990s, mubin sheikh auz o was one of those people. a young muslim growing up in toronto. >> for me, for example, i'm a young kid, 14, 15 years old, not doing too well in school. i keep telling myself, i can't

be a good muslim living in this infidel's society. so i'm already setting myself up for failure in that sense. i can't get a normal job, because, i might have a jew or a woman or some other infidel as my boss and i can't lower myself and be subjugated. >> sheik watched the earliest 52s like this and saw how they progressed. >> for somebody growing up in the west, the appeal to the concept of jihad, it really comes down to the deficit of heroes that exists in the muslim world. and these militants, they are seen as heroes. heroes that will save the muslims from oppression. >> reporter: for these videos, the main recruiting technique is emotion. >> you can watch the full documentary, "isis and the internet," sunday at 6:00 p.m. eastern here on msnbc. coming up, the entire portion of wednesday's town hall

with donald trump dedicated to the topic of abortion rights including trump's statement on punishment. you're watching "hardball," the place for politics. e problems in the world around you. don't you dare change the rules. don't you dare play with your food. don't you dare get any big ideas. ignore what people say you can't do. don't you dare take that apart. don't you dare stay up all night on the computer. don't you dare raise your voice. ♪ ♪ it's everything you've always wanted. and you work hard to keep it that way. ♪ sometimes, maybe too hard. get claimrateguard® from allstate. it helps keep your homeowners' rate from going up just because of a claim. call an allstate agent first. 888-429-5722.

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we're back right now, and here now the entire block from our wednesday town hall during which donald trump discussed the issue of abortion rights. let's watch.

>> what is your stance on women's rights and their rights to choose their own reproductive health? >> okay. as you know, i'm pro-life, i think you know that. and with exceptions, with the three exceptions. but pretty much that's my stance. is that okay? do you understand? >> what should the law be on abortion? >> i have been pro-life. >> i know. i know your principle, that's a good value. what should be the law? >> they've set the law. i mean, you're going to have a very big election coming up for that reason, because you have judges where it's a real tipping point. with the loss of scalia, cho is a very strong conservative, this presidential election will be very important. when you say what's the law, nobody knows what the law is going to be. it depends on who gets elected. somebody is going to appoint conservative judges and somebody is going to appoint liberal judges. >> i never understood the

pro-life position. what crime is it? >> it's human life. >> should the woman be punished? for having an abortion? >> look. >> this is not something you can dodge. if you say abortion is a crime or abortion is murder, you have to deal with it under the law. should abortion be punished? >> well, people in certain parts of the republican party and conservative republicans would say yes, they should be punished. >> how about you? >> i would say it's a very serious problem and it's a problem that we have to decide on. it's very -- >> but you're for banning it. >> wait. are you going to say put them in jail? >> i'm asking you. you say you want to ban it. what does that mean? >> i am against -- i am pro-life, yes. >> how do you ban abortion? how do you actually do it? >> you go back to a position they had where people will perhaps go to illegal places. >> yeah. >> but you have to ban it. >> you ban it and they go to somebody who flunked out of medical school. >> are you catholic? >> yes. >> how do you feel about the catholic church's position? >> i accept the teaching

authority of the church on moral issues. >> do you know their position on abortion? >> i do. >> do you concur with their position? >> i concur with their moral position. >> but what do you say about -- >> it's not funny. >> it's really not funny. what do you say about your church? >> the churches make their moral judgments. go you're running for president of the united states, chief executive of the united states. do you believe in punishment for abortion, yes or no, as a principle? >> the answer is that there has to be some form of punishment. >> for the woman? >> yeah. >> ten days, ten years? what? >> that i don't know. >> you take positions on everything else. >> i do take positions on everything else. it's a very complicated position. >> you say bluntly you're pro-life, meaning you want to ban it. >> the catholic church -- >> let's not talk about my religion. >> i am. you say you're a very good catholic. >> i didn't say very good. [ laughter ] >> you're running for president. i'm not. what should a woman face if she

chooses to have an abortion? >> i'm not going to play that game. >> game? >> the catholic church is pro-life. >> the church doesn't control the government. >> what is the punishment under the catholic church? >> let me give you something from the new testament. render unto caesar those things which are caesar's. tell me what the law should be. you say you're pro-life. >> i am pro-life. >> what's that mean? >> i have not determined what the punishment would be. >> why not? >> because i haven't determined it. >> you decided to be pro-life. you should have thought about it. >> you can ask anybody who is pro-life. >> here is my problem with it. if you don't have a punishment for abortion, people will find a way to have it. >> you don't believe what? >> in any punishment. >> you're against the teachings of your church. >> i have a view, a moral view. but i believe we leave in a free country. i don't want to live in a country so flaascistic that i wt

to punish a woman for seeking an abortion. >> i hear you speaking so highly of your religion and your church. your church is very strongly pro-life. >> i know. >> what do you say to your church? >> i say i accept your moral authority. in the united states the people make the decisions. the courts rule on what's in the constitution. and we live by that. that's what i say. >> but you don't live by it because you don't accept it. you can't accept it. you can't accept it. >> can we go back to matters of the law and running for president? matters of law is what i'm talking about. this is the difficult situation you've placed yourself in. by saying you're pro-life, you want to ban abortion. how do you ban abortion without some kind of sanction? then you get into a very tricky situation about the sanction. a fine? imprisonment for a young woman who finds herself pregnant? what about the guy that gets her pregnant, is he responsible under the law for these abortions? or is he not responsible for an

abortion decision? >> it hasn't -- different feelings, different people. i would say no. >> well, they're usually involved. >> that's "hardball" for now. thanks for being with us. tune in monday night at 7:00 p.m. eastern for more "hardball." murder for hire plots caught on camera. in north carolina, a preschool teacher asks a stranger to throw her husband into a power line. >> i know i am a cold hearted bitch, but life sucks. >> listen to her story, preschool teacher, married, kids, she's everyone's next door neighbor and in new york, a businessman tries to use murder to end his marriage. >> only thing i could walk away saying, he was a jerk and wanted his wife dead.