>> you have a whole big thing going over here between advertisers and campaign contributions and all of the crooked stuff that you have going -- thank you. >> you're welcome. >> don't worry about my eggs being cold. don't worry, they don't feel guilty. this is the press. they have no guilt about my eggs being -- >> his eggs are cold now so he should be allowed to it his breakfast. >> then i'll say it's terrible. >> exactly. it's my fault. >> i'll have an orange juice. the press feels guilty. they see my eggs are dying, nobody said please, mr. trump, have your breakfast. >> go ahead, please.

>> i don't need it. >> good morning, it's monday april 4, welcome to "morning joe." with us on set we have managing editor of bloomberg politics john heilemann. msnbc political analyst and professor at the university of michigan school of public policy, former democratic congressman harold ford, jr. and in washington, republican pollster and columnist in at the washington examiner kristin soltis anderson. a lot going on. his eggs got really cold, huh? >> i guess they did. >> there goes the media again making his eggs cold. >> he could have just eaten them. >> writing a lot of stories about how that means that adolf hitler and mussolini also complained about cold eggs and what does this mean. >> you do have a good piece in the "washington post" about that. >> what's the problem with with that analogy? >> very legitimate that stalin also before he killed 30 to 40 million in russia -- >> cold eggs. >> also complained about cold eggs. >> begin with the eggs.

>> this is a sign to come the press will tell you. especially conservatives. >> you know what, donald trump in a diner, though, that's a rare site. it shows he's taking wisconsin seriously. usually he doesn't step off that rope line. he knows he's got a real threat with ted cruz. >> so we're one day away from the votes being counted in wisconsin. the latest polls there show ted cruz with the advantage ahead of donald trump in the cbs/yougov poll. john kasich is at 18%. in a loras college poll, cruz leads by seven point, 38% to trump's 31%, kasich back at 18%. wisconsin could be a pivotal state for the cruz campaign which is trying to argue he can expand into new geographic and demographic areas but trump wasn't giving up any ground, holding rallies throughout the state while cruz barnstormed alongside top surrogates former

candidates carly fiorina, governor scott walker and u.s. senator mike lee of utah, a change from his past campaign surrogates like glenn beck and the star of "duck dynasty" phil robertson. >> we've got rick perry and lindsey graham and jeb bush and carly fiorina. [ cheers and applause ] and wisconsin's own governor scott walker. now, you throw into that mix senator mike lee and mark levin -- [ cheers and applause ] -- and you've got the entirety of the ideological spectrum of the republican party. that's what we're seeing is we're seeing unity. >> unity, harold ford? >> begrudging unity. like a lot of those people who are endorsing him, i don't know why they're doing it, because they really don't want to and they have said that.

>> well, lindsey graham compared him to poison. >> and jeb bush, it breaks my heart he would do that. makes me sick to my stomach. the whole thing is sad. no, really. >> joe, how much is it let's get to the convention, let's try to stop trump and if we use him as the vessel we'll pick somebody else. is that all of it. >> explain. >> well, i think's a lot of those people, as mika suggests, are not really -- >> they're miserable. >> but they think strted cruz i the only viable vehicle to get trump to 1237 then get to cleveland and figure it out. >> the shift in ted cruz becoming the establishment, the media darling, is remarkable. it wasn't that long ago a few months ago he was the wild one, he was the winger, he was often in right field. now everyone is rallying behind him in a strange way. you had even those north dakota delegates, they're unbound delegates but a lot of them who supported ted cruz saying publicly "i'm not really for ted cruz, i'm just against donald

trump." >> my next question is when do they have to announce, if this republican establish system doing this, when do they say "we're for x candidate, we're for b candidate"? >> do they walk away from ted cruz? >> do they -- >> well, he's got to get 85%, 90% of the remaining delegates to get 1237. he's never going to do that. >> ted? >> when it becomes clear it will be an open convention, i mean. >> right after the first ballot. >> man, listen, if either one of these guys, the first two guys, don't get 1237, pack up, go home. >> but trump still could, right? >> trump could, yeah. but if he's at 1236, pack up and go home. >> you're saying he should pack up and go home? >> i'm saying ted cruz, the republican establishment can say whatever they want but if they don't get 1237, the party is going to find somebody ems. >> so, joe, what do you think

the margin is trump has to shore up, can he shore up with 200 delegates? 150? 25? what's the number where his supporters say, look, if you don't give it to him this is going to be -- >> i think he gets 1237 or nothing and i think the same thing with ted cruz. i really do. i think the republican party would love to have a war against donald trump and they'd prefer it and basically say -- you know, they're saying such horrific things about donald trump supporters now that it's not like they're going to say "oh, well we better keep them on our side." no, they've declared war. called them racists. a lot of people who have been considered america's top conservative thinkers have said you can't even be a christian, a real christian if you support donald trump so i mean -- what else are they going to -- they're not going to be worried about it. if trump doesn't get the number they'll say we've got rules for

a reason, go home. >> the perfect encapsulation of the entire phenomenon is scott walker who a week before he endorsed ted cruz said publicly he thought there would be a contested convention, he thought that would be fine and that he thought that if there was a contested convention the likely ultimate nominee would be someone not running now. then a week later endorses ted cruz. so that's sort of the transparent -- that ice about as transparent as you can be. he said a bunch of things about how he was for cruz but a week earlier he had been saying his real goal was a contested convention. so everyone assumes people like scott walker want paul ryan to be the nominee. >> jeb bush let's out a statement at maybe 4:38 in the morning in portuguese so -- [ laughter ] so even harder to figure out what he's saying and he never says again that he's supporting ted cruz. >> they can't bring themselves to do. >> it can you imagine? >> i cannot.

>> what you say may be true about the convention, but if that's true, what's the point of having primaries and caucuses and all this voting and these guys going through this process of winning votes and having people on their side? why not just have a convention every year and pick a president. >> that's how they used to do it. >> they'll say we have rules for a reason. kristin, let's bring you in. don't you get a feeling that a lot of the republican establishment would far to lose with somebody else than win with donald trump and if he doesn't reach the threshold that is clearly stated in the rules they'll say "we're throwing this convention wide open". >> i think if donald trump doesn't have 1237 you'll see a big argument from the cruz camp that this is anybody's game but i think anybody is really in the cruz camp's mind going to be defined as ted cruz or donald trump. that even there have been movement over the last week end to say well, maybe john kasich, we shouldn't be changing this rule 40 threshold that says you have to have a majority of

delegates in eight states to move forward. i am much more skeptical than you all that it's going to be somebody besides donald trump or ted cruz. i think ted cruz has put in place a strategy to collect as many delegates as possible. he's doing well in wisconsin. you saw what happened in north dakota where he was able to get enough votes for his own slate over the state party's preferred slate and collect almost all of the delegates there. we're going to be moving into states like pennsylvania next where even though donald trump is up in the poll, most of the delegates that will come out of pennsylvania are not legally obligated or bound in any particular way so right now i think it would be funny to see what it must be like to be one of these uncommitted unpledged delegates. how many phone calls they must be getting from the cruz camp, from the trump camp and possibly from the kasich camp. but i think if the party doesn't pick either trump or cruz there is going to be a real potential for massive backlash. it's one thing to say he didn't get a majority -- trump didn't get a majority, let's open the

convention. it's another thing to say let's bring in somebody who failed to perform up to standards in the primaries and install them as the nominee. i think there would be big backlash. >> amidst all that, you write in the "washington post" the damage that's being done that points to what kristen was talking about.

there is a lot of damage being done to the party. >> there is. i gave some quotes -- >> you have to read it, you won't believe. >> i gave quotes out there by top conservative writers saying that -- >> i did a double take. >> that donald trump is the "father furor" that these single -- these white men without fathers have been waiting to come to come their way for a very long time and talk about their drug dependency and family anarchy and say they love donald trump speeches, they also love oxycontin. >> well, who doesn't? >> well, i just wouldn't -- i wouldn't admit it first of all on the air. but secondly the attacks have over the past couple of weeks

especially just become withering. >> it's turned on the people. >> as i wrote in the article but i saw jonah goldberg wrote, too, stop looking at the lewandowski/fields clip like it's the zapruder film frame by frame by frame by frame. the obsession is absolutely outrageous. >> well, look, i think it's a mistake for any party to go to war with its voters. that's a recipe for suicide and i think there's a -- obviously a huge risk and the tricky thing for the party is to figure out a way -- look, what the party fears, right, is that with trump as the nominee he will not just lose the presidency but the party will lose massively across the board, will lose the senate and the house and have huge down-ticket ramification so i think their notion on trying to

get an alternative candidate not in the field right now to be the come knee, even if they think -- they're almost consigned to the motion they'll lose in the fall at the presidential level but their thought is let's try to save the congress, let's try to save the house and senate. i'm not advocating that. i'm saying i think that's the theory. >> i understand that. but you know, willie, these same voters are going to be the ones helping decide who will win the house. >> right. >> these same voters are the voters that helped elect tea party candidates in '14, who helped elect tea party candidates in '10. who helped elect george w. bush in 2000 and 2004 and you can keep going back. just because they're now supporting a candidate that everybody finds offensive -- and as i said, my first three candidates gone, they did not survive the early stages of trumpism. i still think jeb bush would have been one of the best presidents we've had in a very long time. but the thing is, there is another battle after this one

and the viciousness that's being focused upon trump supporters -- i mean, i -- my brother has been a life long baptist, a committed christian. unlike me, he's not a terrible person, he's not a backslider, he is a committed christian. and he is being told by people that he reads and respects that you can't be a christian if you support donald trump. real christians can't support donald trump. nicolle wallace's parents are supporting donald trump. and yet other very established republican writers are explaining the phenomenon away as somebody who's looking for a hitler-like figure. this is not on fringe publications. and i'm not saying these people's names because they're

friends of mine and it's -- but this isn't the fringe part of the republican establishment. they are insulting my brother, nicolle's parents, and millions and millions of successful americans who are not sitting at home like with needles, discarded needles around their house. >> it's funny you make that reference, i read that piece that you referenced in your "washington post" column that suggested that it was the drug problem that it was heroin and prescription pills that was leading these people go and vote. the problems in their lives were brought on by drugs and going to vote for donald trump which i thought was quite a leap to make. but i think the point of your piece is the point that's been around for a year now which is that people who criticize the trump voters don't understand the trump voters. they want to go after donald trump and who he is rather than understand why those people are supporting donald trump so they're reaching for things like hitler and heroin and everything else when it's because they don't have jobs -- >> and white supremacist. >> they don't have jobs, they're frustrated by trade, they're frustrate bade lot of things.

so the more productive thing to do would be to understand why they're supporting donald trump and sway them to your side rathhr than attacking them as drug addicts and hitler lovers. >> i mean, you look, harreold ford, at george w. bush's trade policies, you look at the clintons' trade policies, barack obama's trade policies, it's pretty much the same. there is no alternative. and whether you're talking about trade or whether you're talkings about taxes for the rich or whether you're talking about whatever, the fact is that neither the republicans nor the democrats have spoken to people who make less than $50,000 a year. those tax breaks -- that doesn't touch their lives. by the way, this is something conservatives were saying in the postmortem in 2013, we've got to figure out how to reach those people. >> look, the love that the country seems to have had and the appetite the country seems to have had over the last decade or so sending young kids who war who may not have had a lot of

opportunity, we've pulled from the same pool of people to trade, taxes, there's no doubt bernie and trump are dealing with that. but we have to acknowledge as worried as i am, i think you don't attack your own party, you don't attack your own voters but there have been so many things said at these rallies that people have been unnerved by. not at the rally but when mr. trump could not immediately denounce the kkk, the violence at the rallies, most recently some of the more serious conversations around foreign policy when he was urging asian nations to perhaps develop nuclear weapons. i think that also helps predicate some of the anger and perhaps some of the unexplained talk about attacking supporters from some of these mainstream columnist ins and so forth. but at the end of the day, you don't attack supporters, you don't attack people in your own party, you figure out how to bring them around. but i am confounded somewhat and puzzled somewhat by how some in the republican party are able to continue to embrace a guy that makes the offensive comments he's made about women and racial minorities, especially at time

that it doesn't seem -- you never did that, i never did that. we may have disagreed on the things but that was not the basis of the disagreement so i once this criticism is coming from but i don't think it's productive in the long run to help win supporters back to the party. we have major headlines on the democratic side which we'll get to and other stories making headline this is morning. two people were killed, at least 35eers injured after an amtrak train struck a piece of construction equipment near philadelphia yesterday. according to amtrak, the train was traveling from new york to savannah, georgia, with 341 passengers and seven crew on board when it collided with a backhoe. new york senator chuck schumer said in a news conference the two people killed were the backhoe operator and a supervisor. both amtrak employees. it wasn't immediately clear why the backhoe was on the tracks. we'll follow that. turning overseas now to greece, which has begun deporting migrants and refugees on boats bound for turkey. the operation started at dawn

with 131 migrants boarding two passenger boats on the greek island of lesbos. those boats arrived in turkey early this morning. the move comes as part of a new deal reached by the european union to reduce the number of displaced people flowing into europe. and finally, the uphill climb for president obama's supreme court nominee just got steeper this weekend. two republican senators, jerry moran of kansas and lisa murkowski of alaska revoked their support for confirmation hearings for judge merrick garland saying they oppose his nomination and see no need for the process to continue. >> just hold the hearing. seriously? just hold the hearing. vote no. be man enough or woman enough to look a guy into the eye -- >> how do you say you want to hold a hearing and then come back and say you don't want to hold a hearing? >> i actually respected jerry

moran when he was saying that he'd actually give him a listen. >> could they have played into president obama's hands any better throughout this? >> no. oh, no, they couldn't. >> there's vomit all over themselves. just a mess. >> justice scalia is dead. we're not providing hearings. like the second after he died they found his body and they were putting out politicized statements. no. >> keep doing that. trump will get 1237. >> from the very beginning they could not have had it worse. >> keep doing it. do you need me to tell you this? i feel bad for you, actually, it shouldn't have to come from all of us. do they not know this, harold? it's going to be great. >> i don't get it. >> make america great again. >> john heilemann, when will they ever learn? when will they ever learn? >> they're vomiting all over themselves. >> it just points to dysfunction. >> and the notion that -- what's crazy is that the republican establishment, which is so concerned about the fact that donald trump will be the

nominee, is destined to lose and destroy the party, is now betting on the notion that they're going to somehow get a better supreme court nominee than merrick garland. because if hillary clinton wins the presidency, merrick garland -- they'll be lucky if they get merrick garland. they could easily get a further -- nominee much further to the left than he is. >> the guy is 63 years old. a lot of people expected the president to choose someone younger who -- judge garland may live 30, 40 more years. i couldn't agree more. i don't understand how -- frankly, even liberal democrat aren't pleased with this guy. why don't you get a prototype that fits the mold better. >> why don't rush it through? >> i'm puzzled. >> you don't have to rush it through. >> you're the party of no. >> hold the hearings and vote against him. >> or look at the tea leaves. >> show there's fair play there. >> it's not a partisan thing right now just to say do your jobs. >> do your jobs: still ahead on "morning

joe," former republican presidential candidate dr. ben carson joins us. plus, the two reporters behind the "washington post's" revealing interview with donald trump, bob costa and bob woodward brings new details to their story. it now appears clinton and sanders have agreed before the new york primary. on separate days because hillary clinton wants to make sure he doesn't have a big rally and that nobody sees the debate. that will be interesting. >> what does she want? >> she wants it like in the morning tomorrow or during the ncaa or during a rally that he has a permit for where he'll have like 80,000 people and make her look really bad so she's proposing all these dates that would lock -- >> has she -- >> yes. only on impossible times. >> did she propose the ncaa? >> yes. >> you knew it! >> that was the first proposal. >> it's not a joke. >> i believe they were proposing to have the debate on new york 1 on the night of the -- >> why do they think she's so bad. >> nbc has offered a slot on a sunday night and bernie sanders is on board but she's not.

>> why do her people think she's such a bad debater that they have to hide her? i don't understand that. >> i think she's a very good debater. i'm not afraid of the debate. i'm not a part of negotiation but i'd love to see a prime time duel. >> i think she's a good debater. i don't know why they're trying to hider. there's a bible verse that says don't hide the light under a bushel. >> the bottom line is they don't want to debate? bill? >> bill, let your light shine, my friend. >> you guys got some snow in connecticut this weekend. and it's snowing this morning, too. the winds were the story. these affected areas in the mid-atlantic up to the northeast. this house in maryland didn't we fare so well. a huge oak just crushed it. we saw a couple things like this across the area. a couple people in a vehicle struck by a tree, too. so this morning we're dealing with the last round of snow and it's snowing across a good chunk of upstate new york and connecticut and massachusetts. thankfully, it's been an

underachiever. the buffalo area was supposed to get hit by six to seven inches. you're done now. this is the additional snowfall to what's already on the ground. notice that from new york city south wards nothing is expected. you may see flakes but it will be too warm. the ground is too warm. so if you're driving on the mass pike, the northway, across from syracuse, the new york state throughway, that will get slushy, that's about it. this is at 7:00 a.m., by the time we get to the noon hour the snow is from the hudson valley across massachusetts, much of connecticut is starts to warm up, then by 5:00 p.m. as everyone comes home the worst of it will be around boston, that will be the heavier snow. everybody else will be done and tomorrow no problems. the rest of the country looks good from texas to florida no problems and still chilly great lakes to the northeast. it doesn't warm up significantly probably till the end of next weekend. so it will be a cold stretch here. washington, d.c., you are 70 degrees today. about 40 degrees warmer than boston. enjoy it. tomorrow will be much cooler: more "morning joe" when we come back.

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john kasich should not be aloued to run.

honestly, kasich should not be allowed to run. i'll go opposite on you, he hurts trump more than he hurts trump. >> under what ground. >> under the grounds that rand paul could have stayed in. he had nothing. marco rubio could have stayed in, jeb bush could have stayed in, they all could have stayed in. they could have just stayed in. that's all he's doing. he's 1 for 29. kasich shouldn't be allowed to continue and the afternornc sho allow them to continue. a new report from msnbc's ari melber finds both the trump and cruz campaigns are seeking to block john kasich from being on the ballot at the republican national convention for failing to win in multiple states, signaling that the top two candidates anticipate a floor fight. we'll get to that in just a moment but first as attention is fixed on the vote in wisconsin, ted cruz and donald trump battled in delegate contests, playing out on the state level in north dakota and tennessee. north dakota republicans chose 25 unbound delegates to this summer's republican convention

at their state gop convention yesterday, 18 of which the cruz campaign identified as preferred choices, though they are not required to support him. cruz even made a perm appearance before the convention. while trump sent ben carson as is a surrogate, meeting with delegates in private. north dakota came as the trump campaign protested saturday's result in tennessee with 14 at-large delegates appointed on saturday. trump won the state primary by 14 points, along with seven at large delegates pledged to vote for him on the first and second ballots at the national convention but trump's campaign said only two are truly trump delegates and five are pretend delegates who would vote for the establishment after the second ballot. is this getting complicated? the tennessee gop's executive director responded "if i've got a campaign fretting about that, it's campaign that may understand it's not going to be the nominee."

so let's explain this. let's bring in msnbc chief legal correspondent ari melber, chief white house correspondent for politico mike allen and in washington attorney and republican strategist ben ginsberg: ari, first you'll tell us your reporting on this. >> i can break for you this morning that aides to ted cruz and donald trump are not arguing that john kasich should not be on the ballot at all at the republican convention. that's obviously big because it could affect who wins the nomination and it's big now for the reason that you just showed. donald trump basically saying enough already, you clearly are mathematically eliminated. that's the real grounds for him not running and those votes should go elsewhere. i also, of course, spoke to the kasich side of this. they are upset, that they this would be unfair. they say they think they will prevail and get up on the ballot. it picks up on the conversation you were having earlier in the break. there's nothing automatic, nobody is entitled to be on the ballot. there's a precedent from past rules that would basically if applies right now put only likely donald trump and ted cruz

on that ballot and for folks who think you have a long floor fight and you want to add other people, that's not automatic, you have to have a mechanism to do it. if you use the old rules it would take delegate majorities in eight states so they're saying kasich hasn't won those right now so this is a battle that both matters not just to convention junkies but republicans who want to say is this a three-man race? is this a on two-man race, a three plus magic ponies like mitt romney? all of these things will be bound by the rules which are decided by a rules committee and the floor delegates and the ted cruz operation, i spoke to people there, has a strong organized effort to affect that and trump folks say they can back that up to block kasich. so it's a big development. >> ben ginsberg, who's right here? >> well, the delegates are going to be right. look, you may be able to block john kasich from being on the first ballot an the convention but as ari's reporting showed, that doesn't mean you can block him from being on the second ballot because on the second ballot nearly three quarters of the delegates become unbound and

they can sign nominating petitions for whoever they want to at that point. so it will be a mess. >> mike allen, let's -- we all agree this convention is going to be wide open if donald trump doesn't get to 1237 and it's in in's game. why would john kasich get out. as long as he has the money and he can stay in this, on what ground would he leave? >> well, we checked around this morning and it looks like cruz and trump are going to be successful at least on the first ballot. there are the votes on the rules committee to keep that threshold -- those eight states that ari reported on, there's no reason for kasich to get out. people talked to john weaver, his senior strategist know there's no chance he's going to. this weekend he's on the cover of "barone -- barron's" as the remember being the best for the market and them telling their

readingship to check out kasich. >> there's a standing rnc rules committee that has a population and a convention rules committee will put the final ruhles package together. those people haven't been select yet. point number two is donald trump has a democracy-oriented argument here. his argument is he went through all 50 states, everybody got their turn, that process winnowed the field and now we have perhaps maybe a photo finish between two people and if you have a photo finish between two people, the argument is the convention is there to break that tie. the argue system the convention according to both trump aides and cruz aides i spoke to, the argument is the convention isn't there to just start over. >> so kristen, i'm wondering, everyone's talking about if trump doesn't get to 1237, almost wishfully. is it a big possibility that he won't? >> at this point there are a lot of states remaining where the delegates are not going to be awarded winner take all and that had been favoring donald trump

because he'd been ahead in a lot of these winner take all states we'd already seen. florida was a big prize of delegates, arizona was a big prize of delegates for him. now in wisconsin even if donald trump doesn't win statewide, there will be individual congressional districts for someone like john kasich to pick up votes. in a place like california you'll have the same number of delegates coming from maxine waters' congressional district as you will from the reddest congressional district in that state. so even if donald trump is way ahead, ted cruz has had the staff work in place, he's had the team focused on making this a floor fight for months and donald trump is playing catch-up and finding out the hard way in places like tennessee and north dakota that it really pays to know everything you need to about the rules way in advance so that you can prepare and not be caught blindsided. >> real quick, mike. >> far reason i think he is going to fall short and, joe, as you said at the top of the show, they look to someone else, magic pony territory as you say. >> wow. >> and politico is reporting this morning that it looks like

that other person is to be paul ryan. the republicans tell us that you get to a contested convention, probably 60% chance of that, 90% chance it's paul ryan and he's running smart, he's running like he got speaker, he's saying he doesn't want it, that's the only way to get this job. >> ben ginsberg, stay with us if you can. ari and mike, thank you very much. coming up on "morning joe" -- >> she has proposed three dates, we have proposed four dates. she has a difficult schedule, i've got a difficult schedule. >> he's proposed sunday evening april 17, are you in? >> i'm not negotiating, chuck. we've proposed thursday the 14th which gives people more time to digest what happens in the debate. is he in? >> it's no longer if hillary clinton and bernie sanders debate before the new york primary it's now when. we're going to bring in kristen welker covering the clinton campaign to break down these

negotiations. we'll be right back. wrely on the us postal seice? because when they ship with us,

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up next, hillary clinton said she'd be happy to answer fbi questions about her use of private e-mails and a private server. but has the fbi even reached out toer will yet? kristen welker and jonathan capehart join the conversation. oh, and there's the debate conversation. we'll have that as well. "morning joe" will be right back.

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that was long time aide to hillary clinton houma abedin in her first ever podcast interview recalling one of the first moments she met the former first lady. joining us now, nbc news white house correspondent kristen welker and in washington pulitzer prize winning editorial writer for the "washington post" and msnbc contributor john that i know -- jonathan capehart. good to have you both on board. houma and hillary clinton have been working together for years. there's a huge trust there. how does she play into the latest headlines with all the investigations going on? >> well, just to set that backdrop, mooika, she has been

working for secretary clinton for more than two decades. when you're on the campaign trail, as i am, you see her everyday by secretary clinton's side. she is one of her closest advisors. she's been referred to as her second daughter. you will recall in those e-mails, the troves of e-mails the state department released, a lot of exchanges between houma abedin and secretary clinton, she said she doesn't want to read any of them, she's mortified by what might be in those e-mails so she is someone who could potentially be interviewed as part of this fbi investigation and she's one of the people advising secretary clinton so you'd have to imagine that they have a lot of questions for her in terms of how this was set up. >> kristen, we need your help explaining the debate dance. what's going on right now? >> i'll try my best, willie. >> let me lay the ground work. this is the latest back-and-forth between secretary clinton and senator sanders over debates.

less than an hour later, nbc news posted this article saying clinton had agreed to an april 15 debate on "good morning america." citing this exchange with george sf stephanopoulos. >> are you and bernie sanders going to debate in new york? >> i'm hoping to. we offered date which is they refused. gma offered a debate during gma on friday the 15th. i'll be there. i think it's a great opportunity to reach an audience that may not always be able because of other obligations. i understand there's a debate in the works for the night of the 14th, i will be there. i want a debate. >> she says she'll be there on april 14. >> she'll -- >> wait a minute, she wants to do a debate with george stephanopoulos as the moderator? >> that was one of the proposed ideas. >> that was one of the proposed ideas. >> didn't he work for her? >> yes. and there was some speculation this weekend is that one of the reasons why the sanders'

campaign said absolutely not. >> didn't he donate to the clinton foundation? >> yes, he did. >> i'm curious, are you kidding me? >> no, i'm serious. i've talked into to sanders campaign and i asked to what extent it factored into their desire not to have a debate in that format. they said it's not a concern. for them it's about ratings. they want the biggest ratings. they think that's on a sunday night with the debate that nbc proposed. >> so is that debate -- nbc, is that confirmed? >> no. >> it's not confirmed. >> they have not decided on a final date. part of this is the sanders' campaign saying, look, you might be the democratic front-runner but you can't call all the shots. i have a lot of momentum and i get to have a say here. >> jonathan capehart, help me understand or tell me if i'm going down the wrong path here. it appears the clinton campaign wants to do either a debate that no one will see or a debate with a moderator that might not be

completely fair toward bernie sanders? i mean, what do you think of the concept of a gma debate with george stephanopoulos? >> i think a debate on "good morning america" fits into the first part of your question which is a debate that no one will see. i mean, as kristen says, senator sanders wants the biggest audience possible. >> what about the second part of my question? >> well, let me get to the first part first. you're not going to get that with a sunday night debate and you're not going to get that with a morning debate on morning television. that's why senator sanders is pushing for a debate when he can get the most eyeballs possible. as for the second part about george stephanopoulos, i'm not going to get -- i mean, yes, it's been out there, he's donated to the clinton foundation and yes he worked for president clinton back in the early '90s but i'm not going to get into george's credibility or his motivations. i think the problem -- >> well -- >> wait. i think the problem secretary clinton has and for her campaign

is what i don't understand is why wouldn't they want to have a debate when you've got the biggest audience possible? wherever she's been on the ropes and she's gone into a debate, she has always done well. debates are her best format. and so why she wouldn't -- >> beyond why she wouldn't do it. >> why she would don't a debate when a lot of people can see her, especially leading up to a primary very important like the new york primary is a bit mystifying to me. >> mika, part of this is that they both had things on their calendars already so they're working on previous schedules and they're also digging in. one of the take aways here is that this fight is getting really nasty and you're seeing that more and more on the campaign trail and seeing senator sanders getting under secretary clinton's skin. in terms of the ratings issue, clinton people would say, hey, there are big ratings on gma as well. so what's the argument here?

but i think it speaks to a larger point is that these two candidates are ramping up their rhetoric and this heated fight. >> am i overstating the concern about trying to choose a moderator on gma that worked for the clintons? >> any campaign would try to choose the best -- i think in all fairness to george, george has been a pretty impartial guy as he's gone about his work. >> yeah, but if i'm debating against you, i'm not going to let you have our chief of staff moderate our debate from the house days and you wouldn't let my chief of staff. >> it was her husband's communications director. abc has to make that decision. but the bigger question started off at the beginning of the morning why wouldn't she want the debate? i think she wants the debate. i don't think there's any doubt campaigns try to figure out what's in their best advantage. i think that gma audience -- i'm a "today" fan. >> thank you. hear hear. >> i'm a willie geist fan.

so i'd like to see willie with a microphone. but there are big crowds on these shows and if it's sunday night, there will be big crowds. but i'm a clinton supporter. she will do just fine against bernie sanders. i'm not worried. i don't want that impression throughout to anybody walking. i think to your point there's stuff they have planned and this race has gotten tight and there's no doubt there's tension between these two and can pains that did not exist. it was not as obvious as it was. i'd love to hear your impression. was 12 weeks ago was it this bad? eight weeks ago as bad as it was not? >> well, remember, clinton had been pivoting to the general election. she was talking about donald trump. she'd almost stopped talking about bernie sanders. but in wisconsin he's leading and catching up to her in new york. she had 20-point lead, that's down to 12 points so that's when you saw her redirect her sights toward bernie sanders and you're seeing this heating rhetoric. i was at an event with her in which there were bernie sanders protesters and she got very

frustrated in a way that a lot of us haven't seen. i think she had hoped to have put this race away by now and she hasn't. >> kristen welker, jonathan capehart, thank you very much. good to have you on. coming up, the "washington post's" bob woodward and robert costa join with us their new reporting on donald trump. is that the meeting? we'll have that straight ahead. when you think about success, what does it look like? is it becoming a better professor by being a more adventurous student? is it one day giving your daughter

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opening day yesterday in

major league baseball kansas city royals raised their world championship banner before taking on the new york met, the team they defeated in the world series. the pitcher tossed six scoreless innings. the mets came close after rallying for three runs in the eighth but the royals hold on for a 4-3 victory. joe, i know you think this is the red sox's year, they're back, david price opening day. >> you look at everything and the way it lines up with the red sox and you can -- i mean, you know, you always start -- my dad said you start in the middle, second in shortstop, everything else, the pitching, the relieving. i'm going to make a prediction this year. i'm going to predict that the red sox are not going to finish in last place four out of five years in a row. >> this is going to be their year. >> keep hope alive, right? eyes on the prize, fourth place. eyes on the prize. they will -- >> they'll stop with those

beards. >> everything is coming together. >> they stopped with the beards like three years ago but they won the world series. maybe they should start growing them out. >> kristen, before you go, what are you looking at these days? >> it's all about the delegate count. what i'm looking for in wisconsin is how many delegates does ted cruz walk away with? even if he wins the state, he has to win the congressional districts that,'s where john kasich can pick up a few as well. coming up at the top of the hour, the "washington post's" eugene robinson and elise jordan join the discussion. plus -- >> we're weak on the world stage. we're not doing things that make sense economically. and he's probably the person who's most likely to do that. are there better people? probably. >> we're going to ask dr. ben carson about life as a trump surroga surrogate. "morning joe's" coming right back. >> did he just say that? woman: it's been a journey to get where i am. and i didn't get here alone.

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within with us we have managing editor of bloomberg politics john heilemann, elise jordan, and in washington, attorney and republican strategist ben ginsberg and pulitzer prize winning columnist in and associate editor of the "washington post" and msnbc political analyst eugene robinson. good to have you all on board this hour along with willie, joe, and me one day away from wisconsin. >> and of course the predictions have begun, willie, that this is

donald trump's waterloo. that this is where -- >> it all ends? >> it's all ending, because he's had such a horrific couple of weeks. they knew this day was coming. but this is -- i will give the mainstream media and trump's critics on the right, give them credit. this is the first time, the first time they have pulled that blade out of their side. first time they're going to use this weapon against trump, predicting that the end is here. >> i think we all agree -- >> can we queue up barbra streisand "the way we were" tomorrow night? because it will be the end. scattered pictures. >> that will be the end. >> i think we all agree and even you agree it has been a terrible couple weeks for donald trump. you couldn't imagine a worse couple weeks. >> ever, ever. terrible. >> the reason it could matter is if he really wants to get to

1237 he's going to win every delegate he can so losing wisconsin could be the reason he doesn't get there. but if you look down the road two weeks from now in the state of new york, he's up by 30 points. >> we didn't put up these polls last hour. it's been a horrible week. the worst week of his campaign, it's dumbfounding how he keeps stepping on himself day after day and it seems to keep getting worse. but those that suggest that wisconsin is the end of history, you have to look forward to new york state which comes after and you also have to look forward to pennsylvania which comes after. >> new york he's up 30, end of the month we get to pennsylvania he's up 18. those margins could shrink. the point is he may very well lose tomorrow night to ted cruz and survive it. now, again, it makes it harder to get to 1237 and you've said this morning that if he doesn't get there it may be somebody else other than donald trump or ted cruz. so he wants to hit that threshold. >> he sent sarah palin to wisconsin.

yeah, it was -- >> she wasn't as well received as they would have hoped. >> i'm not sure i would have done that. it was word salad. >> it was crazy. >> were you there? >> what happened? tell us about it. tell us about it. >> can you queue it up. >> you have to play it first. >> halfway through your speech did you ask if you stumbled into bad acid? >> the question was who had been given the bad acid. >> so you thought it appeared -- >> she was not fully -- if the opposite of dissociative is associative she was not fully associative. let's say it was not a fully coherent speech. >> so maybe we're wrong. maybe we should listen again and maybe we shouldn't be so condescending because this could be the most articulate moment of the campaign. >> ladies and gentlemen, winston churchill, 1940. >> illegal immigrants, welcoming them in, inducing and seducing them with gift baskets. come on over the border and here's a gift basket of teddy bears and soccer balls. our kids and our grand kids,

they'll never know, then, what it is to be rewarded for that entrepreneurial spirit that god creates within us in order to work and produce and strive and thrive and really be alive. wisconsin, reagan saved the hog. here. your harley-davidson. that was reagan who saved that. and the establishment, maybe they'll start a new hashtag movement, #neverreagan. they don't like that. >> was that more white rabbit or lucy in the sky with diamonds? >> i like to think it was more lucy in the sky with diamonds. >> did the audience -- maybe i'm missing something, maybe they loved it. i don't want to judge. i didn't hear anything. >> what is that? >> well, it was an event -- >> you could hear a pin drop. >> do you want to know what the event was? >> i want to know what she was trying to communicate. >> i have no idea. >> did anybody get it? >> it would be fair to say the audience was not fully

enthralled. >> was she there to promote donald trump for president? >> she was. >> did she ever say that? >> she did. >> okay. >> she did. >> did they go "whoo"? >> no, there was a lot of eating of potato chips and people shaking their heads and yawning and laughing throughout. i would say the audience was -- received that speech in the way you would have imagined a smart group of wisconsinites would have received the speech. >> which is like "that was horrible and i don't know what happened." >> as i said, there was a lot of eating of potato chips, rolling of eyes, laughing, distracted looks around the room. >> so you're saying that may not have helped his cause in the badger state? >> both john kasich and ted cruz were very warmly received. she was not quite adds warmly received? >> so after that opening speech when she first endorsed donald trump and he looked pretty pained in that famous two-shot, the conventional wisdom was that was going to be one of her final appearances with the campaign

yet here she is again. do they view her as a valuable surrogate? >> she were going to have her come out with him and then todd had that that snow machine accident. people were assuming she would come out at some point. she did this event on friday night and spent all day saturday with him. she did a series of events all day saturday. he obviously right now is confronting the fact he has a problem with women voters. so she is the most high profile female and surrogate for the trump campaign, i believe. and so there's some logic to it. >> today melania is campaigning for him in wisconsin, too. >> that will be better. >> so that's -- he's bringing out the women. that's where i think -- joe might disagree with me -- but i think, trump, the women problem has just sunk in and the narrative isn't going away and that's why he's such a damaged candidate. >> it's massive. >> this last week drove this thing in. >> cruz was -- he pivoted very sharply. he's been --

>> wait, hold on. that's funny. ted cruz? >> yes, he's been doing a series of events in wisconsin with his mother and wife and carly fiorina. >> do they want to be there? >> they seem like they're very happy to be there. >> so gene robinson, there's no doubt there's a huge problem with women. maureen dowd underlined it yesterday that even before last week's nearly catastrophic week for donald trump when it comes to reaching out to the women vote it was bad but i don't know if the answer to that problem is sarah palin. it seems to me the only positive out of sarah palin is she makes donald trump look like a very disciplined speaker. >> absolutely she makes him look s sane, she makes him look disciplined, she makes him look calm and reflective. that was worse than a train wreck that palin appearance. >> i don't even know how to describe that. >> i don't know what she was

trying to say or why she was there. she didn't give people much of an indication. but does that in the final analysis matter to where we are in the campaign? i would argue that it probably doesn't. you know, going into wisconsin, donald trump could come away with zero delegates and he'd still be way ahead and he's not going away, he's looking forward to friendly states so i do believe that once again all the -- you know, "this time he's fooj finally gone too far," i think that's overdone to say that at a minimum. and potentially it's just wrong again. so we'll see. we're going to move on. does anyone who goes to that sarah palin wall rah sarah palin rally walk away going "i'm voting for trump"? i think he lost votes. he walks away from that and goes "i'm going to vote for that guy, i just learned something new."

>> all you can do is base it on the reaction of the room. there was a fish fry of 1500 people. both kasich and cruz were warmly received and she was not so i don't know what's going on in their minds but she did not seem to sway a lot of people in the room. after a difficult week handling questions on abortions and nuclear arms, donald trump continued to open up this weekend. nbc's katy tur learned a trump ally advised him to lay low and be patient for the news cycle to pass but despite that advice, trump kept up with a spate of interviews, one with maureen dowd of the "new york times" where he admitted tweeted unann unflattering photo of heidi cruz was a mistake, one with bob costa where he said the u.s. is headed for a national recession and trump gave three interviews that aired yesterday including one with cbs that led to another clarification on his abortion stance. >> the laws are set now on abortion and that's the way

they're going to remain until they're changed. >> because you said you wanted -- you told bloomberg in january you believed abortion should be banned at some point in pregnancy. where would you do the ban? >> well, i would have like to see this be a state's rights -- i would have preferred state's rights. i think it would have been better if it were up to the states but right now the laws are set and that's the way the laws are. >> do you have a feeling they should change? there a lot of laws you've talked about changing. everything from libel to torture? >> at this moment we have to leave it that way. >> trump's campaign issued a statement saying -- >> so that lack of discipline people are pointing to, there are certain things said in the past that everyone felt were so damaging that actually i think

played into the feelings of primary voters. i think these may be different because you lose voters when you say things that impact women's lives directly in perhaps what they would feel a negative way. >> well, i think the choice of words in that first interview with chris matthews, punish, i think women heard that loud and clear that they were to be punished for their choices whereas the man who is involved -- nothing trump said in the interview, the man is irrelevant, no punishment for him. i think women heard that and i think it was the confluence of damaging events, just the drum beat of anti-women and i'm sorry, i'm a young republican woman and i do not want trump to be president just because i feel he is so anti-women. and that's -- you know, i've lived through the 2012 cycle, it wasn't exactly republican men saying sweet things about women but this is far, far worse than anything i've ever seen. i think he is one of the most damaging men in public life when it comes to how he talks about

women. >> elise is not alone in her concerns. stan greenberg, the well known democratic pollster was quoted in a "new york times" speech yesterday and he said according to his poll right now donald trump is down 23 points to hillary clinton in a hypothetical among women. 23 points. the biggest spread in the last 36 years since 1980 in a general election was bob dole losing to bill clinton among women by 11 points. so that women problem could be fatal for donald trump. >> it could be massive. >> and i want to follow up with this report that everybody close to him -- and he suggested in this interview with maureen dowd, everybody is wanting him to be more presidential. everyone wants him to be more restrained, everyone wants him to stop doing 20 interviews a day. and become much more disciplined with his message. does he have that in him? if he doesn't he's going to keep doing worse and worse. >> there's a -- i think it's true of all candidates that you

get late into the cycle -- and you see this in every presidential election, late in the cycle, the months of campaigning start to wear on people. they're tired in general and in order to not make mistakes they need to be more cautious. >> he should do less. >> and you need to do less. so if you're on television constantly, you have some understanding of this. if you're on television constantly day after day month after month you'll make mistakes and trump has made many mistakes over the course of this campaign. they're starting to pile up and now they're at least on the subject of women they can have significant electoral consequences that may not be fixable. >> yeah, and, again, you get on tv and you're exhausted. >> right. >> that's when the mistakes pile up. >> i think he's addicted to the drug of tv on some level and that's what he keeps coming over. he can't stop. >> that is the question. is he addicted to it? can he stop? can he start putting out press releases everyday and policy statements everyday that will

help him in the polls, held him with the republican establishment and make him look presidential or is he addicted to being on tv like crack? >> you made the point last week around the abortion comments that he was un -- that when chris matthews asked him those questions he seemed unprepared. so if you combine exhaustion with pervasiveness, with lack of preparation, you could end up in a bad place fast. >> and by the way, you -- have you don't politics, you say "i don't want to answer that hypothetical question" and they just keep coming. you keep saying "i'm not going to answer your hypothetical question." but he feels like he has to take every interview and answer every question and he's ill equipped to do that and we saw that in a big way last week. ben ginsberg, from your observation, these mistakes trump has made, they seem to be

accelerating. one of his most undisciplined weeks over the past week. does this make it more likely that when we get to cleveland that the republican party will be less likely to turn their party over to him if, let's say, he's even 100 delegates short? >> well, i think the point is he's got a lot of time in the calendar. what's interesting is these series of mistakes this all candidates made in a campaign came in the spring break period whether they are no other intervening electoral events to break the momentum. now there's one on tuesday and it depends on how he does from now on in on what the delegates are going to be feeling like when they get to cleveland. there is time to correct the problems but the correction is probably a lot of substantive speeches and a lot of substantive interviews which is not exactly what's happened in the past weeks which i think his

campaign recognizes. >> willie, there is a -- there is still believe it or not -- ben's right, a long way to go if he could discipline himself. i'm not saying he's going to become the candidate of women, but he certainly could erase a 23-point deficit. >> you say he should put out policy statements, the only statement he is puts out now are the ones we saw from hope hicks which is sort of correcting something he said in an interview that day and another one elaborating on that statement. >> stop giving interviews. barack obama gave, what -- they guy rarely gave interviews in 2008. he controlled his message. he squeezed every word. he never gave the media anything. he didn't want the media to get. >> i don't know if donald trump is capable of not being on tv. on the democratic side, a cbs yougov poll showing hillary clinton and bernie sanders neck in neck in the state of wisconsin. senator sanders out front by two points, that's within the margin

of error but that comes as a loras college poll out of wisconsin shows clinton ahead by six points. joining us from milwaukee, senior white house correspondent chris jansing. chris spent the weekend covering the candidates on the trial. chris, how is it shaking out in wiscons wisconsin? >> the democrats are fired up here. i was at a big dinner saturday night. they can't wait to see what happens on tuesday. but listen all politics are local, right? and it's so interesting to see scott walker, the governor here, is in the middle of all of this. as popular as he is with the republican base, he is incredibly unpopular, loathed, in fact, by many democrats so there were times this weekend when hillary clinton and bernie sanders sounded like they were running against scott walker. >> it is terrible to see the damage governor walker and his allies in the legislature have done in just five years.

they have cut hundreds of millions of dollars from wisconsin's colleges and universities. they've rolled back financial aid. my opponent is counting on governor walker and the legislature to come up with $300 million in new funding for higher education up front. that's ironic because that's how much governor walker wanted to cut last year. >> if the voter turnout is high, we will win. if the voteser turnout is low, we will likely lose. it's as simple as that. i hope very much that the people of wisconsin come out. i hope that they upset governor walker with a record-breaking turnout. [ cheers and applause ] and i hope very much that this great state which has one of the most progressive traditions in

the united states of america comes out and says "yes, we are going forward with a political revolution." thank you all very much. [ cheers and applause ] >> of course, what's interesting is that walker is in the middle of the republican race as well because he's one of the leaders of these anti-trump forces and a democrat told me if for some reason trump pulls out a victory here, it would be devastating to the republican party in wisconsin which has really coalesced against donald trump and he said that i would say somewhat gleefully. they're sort of characterizing this race as the biggest since kennedy beat humphrey. so a lot of energy on the ground. we'll see what happens on tuesday. >> looks like we'll be covering a tossup on the democratic side tomorrow night. chris jansing in milwaukee. thanks so much, chris. >> you get the feeling when you hear bernie sanders speak and the audience respond that he's not talking about you need to come out and vote for me, you

need to vote for yourselves and do something different. it's very -- he's got a strong message. it probably -- i guess ultimately the numbers are stacked against him, correct? >> delegate wise, yes. he's right about what he said about turnouts, though. it's always been about getting people to vote and in the early states they didn't come out in ways he hoped. >> what he does have going for him, he's a cause candidate. >> the state where he should do well -- >> where there is a cause. >> the interesting thing about last week, that race seems to be tightening. usually what happens in the past is when sanders gets a chance to get to a state and is on the ground for a sustained period of time he moves votes. the clinton campaign acknowledges that. last week hillary clinton left wisconsin for four or five days. came back to new york. sanders was there all week and yet that race seems to be tightening rather than sanders pulling away. so if hillary clinton falls shorts by a point or two there will be second guessing about whether she should have stayed there and done more in

wisconsin. >> i don't think you can overstate how devastating a sanders' loss would be in that state. >> for sanders? yeah. they have said now publicly multiple times that he can't be the democratic nominee if he doesn't win wisconsin. his people have said that multiple times. it's a hard road for him to be the nominee in any circumstances but if he loses in wisconsin, the air goes out of that balloon heading into new york and that makes it really pretty much close to impossible. >> ben ginsberg, thank you very much. elise jordan thank you as well. gene, stay with us. still ahead on "morning joe," dr. ben carson joins the discussion. plus, one of the leading members of president obama's cabinet, commerce secretary penny pritzker. also leave it to donald trump to make "exceedingly unusual" if not unprecedented remarks on the economy. we'll talk to bob woodward and robert costa about their hutch-discussed new interview with the republican front-runner set up right here on "morning joe." and mark halperin joins us for his take on tomorrow's big election in wisconsin.

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this is not the way romney did it. this is an endorsement. >> it's a full-throated massive wisconsin-sized embrace. >> kind of like you can argue coming together for him. >> you could say it's his biggest win since iowa. >> senator cruz, you just got the endorsement of scott walker. >> it's a great morning. >> what are you going to do next? >> go visit with a bunch of wonderful people from wisconsin to celebrate. >> it's like simon and garfunkel reuniting. >> both managing editors -- >> hello darkness, my old friend. >> men behind show time's "the circus." >> and like simon and garfunkel, they loathe each other. >> we really do. >> they do hate each other. >> we feel that tension on the set. so we have another clip we're looking for, the interview with sarah palin.

i want you to be honest. and my grandma would say, just take the rag right off the churn here and just tell us -- >> take the rag off the what? >> take the rag off the churn. >> my grandmother said that, too, by the way. >> rags, churns? >> tell us how bad -- and i mean it. how bad was sarah palin in wisconsin friday night? was its one of the worst political speeches you've ever seen on the national stage? >> the speech wasn't all that bad. it was the combination, the crowd was kind of a party loyal crowd, scott walker's candidate was there, ted cruz, and john kasich was there and did pretty well. and palin, she was the surrogate for trump and i was standing in the front of the room where she was looking at the audience and it was disjointed but i've never seen in my entire career a crowd react that way to a pretty long speech. they were laughing at her, they were rolling their eyes, they

were looking at their phones, looking at the recorders and shrugging as if to say "what is this aboot?" and it went on and on and i think the trump people put her in a bad position because you send a surrogate when the other people are sending candidates and you send a surrogate that the party doesn't like right now. >> but let's talk about the performance, too. >> mark is being too generous about the speech. the speech was horrible. >> you guys are not telling me the truth. the speech was disjointed. beyond disjointed. was it one of the worst speeches you've seen in your life? >> it was not one of the worst speeches. i would say it was a typical sarah palin speech these days. >> it was -- look, we've seen a lot of speeches. the audience reaction, was it one of the worst speeches i've ever seen? >> but the audience reaction was the worst i've seen. >> but it was incoherent. >> it was incoherent.

>> but it's hard. you take a surrogate who sports an aunt establishment candidate, send her into a party dinner of people who like scott walker and, you know, palin and palin's candidate donald trump amongst the crazy inexplicable things he's done is you tell wisconsin republicans scott walker is doing a bad job when the guy is an 80% approval rating with republicans. >> so i don't mean this rhetorical rhetorically. what is the value of having sarah palin on the campaign trail? she still has plenty of admirers, what does she do for that campaign as a sur zbhrogat? >> well, she's got appeal to conservative women and trump's problem is with women. >> so what did she say that would help -- >> he doesn't have another prominent female surrogate at a national level that i know of. apart from his family, if you were trying to figure out how to solve the problem with women, who did you put out if you didn't have another significant female surrogate.

>> she's had a following in wisconsin. one of the first events she did after she lost the vice presidential race was go to wisconsin and speak to a right to life dinner and she got -- >> things have changed a great deal in eight years. gene robinson it seem this is event was yet another inexplicable decision made by the trump campaign over a two week run that seems to keep getting worse. >> you have to blame this on the campaign, not necessarily on trump himself. you could separate all the mistakes into those that are trump's fault and those that are the campaign's fault. so it sound like -- i wasn't asked but it sounds like an unmitigated disaster. she made absolutely no sense but she couldn't have swayed that crowd had she been seneca

delivering a -- there's no way she could have brought over i think a wisconsin orthodox party crowd to the trump side. did she cost him vote there is? i'm not sure she did, frankly. i think she probably -- probably had no impact, zero support in that room and had zero support when she left. >> willie, seneca is pretty damn good. also seneca, little known fact, alex just told me, the first actually to mutter the words "drill, baby drill." >> that's right. >> totally different context, though. >> different kind of drilling. >> it was, it was. >> i don't know. okay. mark, stay with us. eugene robinson, thank you very much. eugene should stay if he can. coming up, presidential candidate turned donald trump supporter dr. ben carson joins the conversation. that's next on "morning joe."

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♪ no, you're not ♪ yogonna watch it! ♪tch it! ♪ ♪ we can't let you download on the goooooo! ♪ ♪ you'll just have to miss it! ♪ yeah, you'll just have to miss it! ♪ ♪ we can't let you download... uh, no thanks. i have x1 from xfinity so... don't fall for directv. xfinity lets you download your shows from anywhere. i used to like that song. . >> what do you think of wisconsin politics? >> a lot like alaskan politics. >> in what way? >> a lot of independents. practical thinking, also. >> do you think mr. trump is a good fit for this state? >> well, of course i do, yes.

he's kind of the embodiment of that independence and his special interests will be the people of america. >> will he be nice or competitive? >> i'm thinking competition. i'm thinking how valuable that being able to be competitive and to have just kind of an inherent love and drive for competition because if not, man, you get run over. >> what do you think? >> that sounds like what she usually sounds like. what's the speculation? >> i think let's not speculate. we'll give you a quick programming note. tomorrow we'll have extended afternoon coverage of the presidential race. >> oh, yeah. >> as voters head into the polls in wisconsin. in addition to our normal "morning joe." joe, willie and i will be fear 3:00 to 5:00. they're setting up a bar, cigar

room. >> very exciting. all day, all night. >> we'll sit back. >> sometimes it seems as if we're -- >> do we still have to come in in the morning? >> i think so. >> i'll have what she's having. >> we may need what she's having. >> i'll take what she's having. we'll be right back with dr. ben carson. ♪ ♪

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joining us from west palm beach, florida, former republican presidential candidate dr. ben carson. he's now supporting donald trump. good to have you on board, sir, this morning. >> thank you. good to be with you. >> so your endorsement of donald trump, it sounds a little tepid. are you 100% behind your candidate or might there be other candidates out there somewhere? >> no, i believe that he is the best candidate to solve the

problem facing our nation right now. we have these incredible fiscal issues which threaten the financial viability of our nation and then we have threats from isis and terrorist groups and i think we need somebody who understands those and who is not going to react to them in a politically correct way. >> do you think he is fully briefed and fully knowledgeable about foreign policy? >> i think he's as knowledgeable adds most of the other people. but one of the things that has to be understood is that when it comes to complex foreign policy, you're going to have experts in those areas. i don't care how much time he spends, for instance, reading about russian history, he's not going to be an expert on russia, nor is senator cruz, nor is senator bernie sanders. none of them are going to be. you have to be able to utilize the right kinds of people. >> dr. carson, to mika's point,

though, yesterday, you were asked about mr. trump and you said "are there better people? probably" which piggybacks on other things you've said. you've said if he's a bad president it will only be for four years, it's not so bad. so if this convention opens up the way many people think it may and there are other options on the table, would you be willing to reconsider your support for donald trump? >> well, you know, i tend to be a plain spoken honest person which is great for you guys in the media because you can say "carson said this, carson said that, this is what he really meant." but a basically what i'm saying is that of the people who are running i believe he is the best one to be able to resolve the issues. now if we end up with a contested convention and things work out in a frernt way and it seems fair then of course you're going to support whoever the nominee is but again things must

be open, they must be fair and they must be apparent. >> if they are fair and open, donald trump doesn't meet that threshold of delegates and we have a contested convention. let's say paul ryan, for example, were available, you could see yourself jumping from donald trump to another candidate like ryan? >> i would not be enthusiastic about whoever it was if it wasn't one of the people who spent all this time, all this effort, all of this resource in order to get there and then we toss them out. because basically what that's saying is the people don't mean anythi anything. >> so you're saying ultimately it would have to be donald trump or ted cruz or are you you also saying hey, it could be jeb bush, he went through the process, it could be rubio, he went through the process. >> or ben carson. >> or ben carson. >> well, if it's not senator cruz or mr. trump i think we

have major problems brewing. you're going to create so much friction and, of course, that will be a wonderful thing for the democrats, no question about it. they would love that, be dancing in the streets. but it would be a disaster for the republicans? >> wouldn't that be a time to stick with your candidate and hold things together. is. >> i don't think i have said anything that indicates i am not sticking with him. >> i thought you just did say that, sir. >> no, i think that may be your interpretation but i said if things didn't work out and it was done in a fair and apparent way. those are the key words, fair and apparent for people to simply say oh, we don't like you, we're going to go with somebody else. i don't think that's fair. not after someone else has gone through that effort. >> mark, dr. carson, what

evidence could you point to that would suggest current polls not withstanding that donald trump would be a strong general election candidate against hillary clinton? >> well, he's brought in millions of voters who normally wouldn't be there and people from the middle and even testimony from from the democratic side and these people are enthusiastic voters if he becomes the nominee, a lot of the ones who are not supporting him now will recognize that he is the candidate and he is going to be a lot better than somebody who has a completely different philosophy. you must recognize we're talking about a major divide here. people who feel that america has its original purpose of being a place where people can live and let live according to their wishes versus an america where the government is involved in your life from the birth until

death and they pretty much dictate who you are and what you do. that's a big difference. >> dr. carson, good morning, harold ford, mr. trump asked your advice on whom he might choose as a running mate. what advice should you give him? >> we have not discussed that issue. >> do you have a choice? >> and the advice i would generally give is choose somebody who can be for extraordinarily helpful to you. in many cases the vice president has been sort of a figure head or has been somebody who may be able to bring this state or group of people. but i think the job has gotten so complex that you do yourself a great favor by picking someone who can take on some major issues and really make a difference. >> dr. ben carson, thank you for being on the show this morning. >> thank you so much, we appreciate it. still ahead this morning, we'll go live to wisconsin where

nbc's alhallie jackson is following the campaign. plus, leicester city one step closer to a remarkable ending. roger bennett says it's like sea biscuit in cleats and the voice of the premier league ar lolo whitement we'll be right back. ♪ only those who dare drive the world forward. introducing the first-ever cadillac ct6.

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>> today should be an absolute cracker of a game. two teams are desperate for three points to avoid

relegation. what are you looking forward to? >> i'm looking forward to the deaf fission of relegation. i was able to parlay my coaching skbre career into on camera work. i was doing football rebecca lo pleasure of working alongside arlow white. >> whoever has the most points at the end of the season they are the champions, the bottom three teams are relegated. >> say champions again. >> champions. >> that was jason is a dak can i say getting pumped up for the premiere league. with us now soccer analyst and men in blazers roger bennett. why don't we have the sex pistols playing right now? >> the man with the velvety voice, play by play announcer arlow white. roger, unbelievable royalty in lester as well. >> sorry, arlow. >> he was the al michaels of

lester. >> to american audiences explain the inexplicable that is happening right now in the epl. >> it's -- i can't explain t it's a miracle that lester city this time last year poised to be relegated this time six games before the end of the season -- >> this would be as if the pawtucket red sox, i'm dead serious here, were elevated from aaa into the major lesion and one year later won the world series. >> to put into your terms mika, it's as surreal as if i told you wendy dang would be dating vladimir putin. you tell me that could never happen. >> that could never happen. >> that's how surreal and crazy -- >> do we have any highlights? >> we have a couple highlights of the season. we will hit the big game of the weekend, let's look at liverpool. >> oh, my god. >> second -- trying to keep that total challenge going, desperate for a win but it was liverpool who would strike first in the 51st minute, saved by the bell's

a.c. slater. phillip catinio. they would equalize so england's harry kay. >> this is madness. what a goal by kaine. >> all the venom of chris christie attacking a box of chocolate m and ms. >> stop that. >> they are desperate for a winner but denied. >> i had a couple of great sayings down the stretch. >> wow. >> lester city a chance the next day to see if they could stretch their gorgeous lead at the top. they played over south hampton. this was the only goal of the game. it's wes morgan, the miracle continues, it is a waking dream for the people of lester, they are now with six games to go they just need 12 more points. >> arlow, it's amazing and we

are in april. i woke up this morning thinking we are in april, lester is going to do this. >> it gets more ridiculous by the week. people are waiting for the wheels to fall off this thing and it just isn't happening. they win every week. as far as spurs try to close the gap, they drop points down field so lester's lead is increased. you look at how unbelievable this is for the people of lester, top of the premiere league, it was the owner's birthday of the weekend, he did for the crowd a free beer and doughnut for everybody. life has never been this food in lester. >> they went to the "morning joe" formula. get your free doughnut. >> it's like a stadium -- >> so can you also explain when i really started getting into soccer/football 10, 11 years ago the only downside was there were four teams and you always knew the same four teams were going to finish in the top four and go play europe mann team changed

that, five and a half. something like this just never happens. >> to understand it fully because before lester city english football was predetermined by economics, it was a game ruled by sheikhs, by american sports -- >> it was mann u, arsenal, chelsea, liverpool. >> this team has rewritten the sport. it's like watching sea biscuit win every race by dawning a pair of cleats. it is hard to understand how this has happened, unlike march madness where you have to have a run of six games, great luck, great performances clicking at the same time this is a marathon not a sprint. who you do you understand it? >> it's unexplicable in many ways. the money you spend usually adheres to the points that you accrue at the end of the season and there is just no correlation to this at all, lester starting 11 and they pick the same 11 week in, week out, costs about $30 million, manchester city is 450, $500 million. five of the seven most expensive

players that lester got never played. >> what? >> it's ludicrous. this is a team that came up together through the championship, they stuck together, one or two players have been added for very little money, it's a perfect moment, perfect synergy. off theel field the managers are terrific, the owners are terrific. >> putting it in perspective that payroll is less than liverpool played for andy carol. >> is this a flukey season or are we watching the beginning of a lester dynasty, roger? >> every time i tune into them i do feel it's like watching moses part the waters on both sides, it's like watching a biblical miracle. i have never seen this before. >> in three years morris will be playing for barcelona -- >> they are going to get picked apart. we saw south hampton have a pretty good run, surprised people, this he got picked apart. the money is too big. they are all going to be picking this team apart, willie, it's

going to be -- the owners will get very rich, won't be too good for 12-year-old fans who are lester fans. >> it will be a great book out of it, money ball part 2. >> roger bennett, where have you been? we've missed you. thank you so much. >> hard to believe, mika. >> seriously. >> you've made my day. >> no, because really i would say i -- i'm trying to decide, do i understand sarah palin or roger bennett? >> you understand roger bennett. >> i think it's roger bennett. >> i've been running the campaign. >> do you have a liverpool insult for me before you leave? >> i feel your pain. i feel your pain. red sox season, you have that to keep you happy for the next couple days. >> oh, dear. we will see you on men in blazers at 10:00 eastern time. ooirl white thank you as well. before heading back to the u.k. to call the remainder of the season's top matches arlow will host premiere league live on nbc sports network at 7:00 -- 7:00 a.m. eastern on saturday and 7:30 a.m. eastern on sunday so

you can watch that. that's what you're up for. >> that's actually always been my weekends. >> that's quite a voice, arlow. up next, ted cruz leads in the latest polling out in wisconsin, but donald trump predicts a come from behind victory in tomorrow's badger state battle. we will go live to the trail for all the last minute campaigning and we will also speak with the washington post bob woodward and robert costa after their very interesting interview with the republican front runner. "morning joe" is back in a moment. why do some cash back cards keep throwing obstacles at you? first - they limit where you earn bonus cash back. then - those places change every few months? i think i'll pass... quicksilver from capital one puts nothing in your way. you simply earn unlimited 1.5% cash back on every purchase, everywhere. you can't dodge the question... what's in your wallet?

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you have a whole big thing going over here between advertisers and campaign contributions and all of the crooked stuff that you have

going. thank you. all of -- don't worry about my eggs being cold. don't worry. they don't feel guilty. this is the press. they have no guilt about my eggs being -- >> his eggs are cold now so -- >> then i will say your food is terrible. >> exactly. >> i will have an orange juice. >> sure. >> don't feel guilty. they see my eggs -- they see my eggs are dying, nobody said, oh, please, mr. trump, please have your breakfast. >> go ahead, please. >> i don't need it. i don't need it. good morning. it's monday, april 4th. welcome to "morning joe." with us on sket we have managing editor of bloomberg politics john heilemann, msnbc political analyst former democratic congressman harold ford jr. and kristen soltis anderson. a lot going on. his eggs got really cold, had u.? >> what's that? >> his eggs got really told. >> there goes the media again,

making his eggs cold. >> he could have just eaten them. >> we're going to analyze that and a write a lot of stories about how that means that adolph hitler and muse leany also complained about cold eggs. >> well, they did. >> and what does this mean? >> exactly. >> very legitimate, very legitimate, that stallen also before he killed 30 to 40 million -- >> cold eggs. >> -- also complained about cold eggs. this is a sign to come the press will tell you. >> were your eggs cold? >> they're getting cold, my man. pipe down. donald trump in a diner, though, that's a rare sight. it shows you he's taking wisconsin seriously. >> that's true. >> usually he doesn't step off that stage, off that rope line, he knows he has a real threat with ted cruz. >> we're just one day away from the votes being counted in wisconsin. the latest polls there show ted cruz with the advantage ahead of donald trump in the cbs u goff poll 343% to 37%, john kasich i

at 18%. in another poll cruz leads by 7 points, 38% to trump's 31%. wisconsin could be a pivotal state for the gop campaign. trump wasn't giving up any ground holding rallies throughout the state this weekend, this while cruz barn stormed alongside former candidates carly fiorina, governor scott walker and u.s. senator mike lee of utah, a change from his past campaign surrogates like glenn beck and the star of duck dynasty phil robertson. >> we've got rick perry and lindsey graham and jeb bush and carly fiorina, and wisconsin's own governor scott walker. now, you throw into that mix

senator mike lee and mark levin, and you've got the entirety of the ideological spectrum of the republican party. that's what we're seeing is we're seeing unity. >> unity, harold ford. >> begrudging unity. a lot of those people who are endorsing him, i don't know why they're doing it because they really don't want to and they have said that. >> lindsay compared to to taking poison. >> jeb bush, it breaks my heart that he would do that. kind of makes me sick to my stomach. all things sad. no, really. >> joe, how much of it is let's get to the convention, try to stop trump, with he use him as the vessel, pick someone else and get to the convention, him being cruz. >> all of it. >> explain. >> a lot of those people as mika suggests are not really particularly like ted cruz. >> they are miserable. >> they think that ted cruz is the only viable vehicle to stopping trump, keeping trump from 1,237, get to cleveland and

figure it out. >> ew. >> the shift and ted cruz becoming the establishment, the media darling, all those things is remarkable. it wasn't is that long ago, a few months ago, he was the wild one, he was the winger, he was often in right field and now he is the guy that everyone is rallying behind in this strange way. you had those north dakota delegates yesterday who were -- they're unbound delegates but a lot of them supported ted cruz even saying publicly i'm not really for ted cruz i'm just against donald trump. >> my next question is when do they have to announce if this republican establishment is doing this when do they have to say we're for x candidate and we bay be for b candidate or y candidate other than ted cruz. >> do they walk away from him? >> do they begin to telegraph that there is another candidate for the presidency that they are not -- that's not in the race or maybe someone in the race, i don't know. >> he's got to get 85, 90% of the remaining delegates to get 1,237, he's never going to do that. >> ted. >> ted cruz. >> but when it becomes clear it's going to be an open convention is what i mean.

>> right after the first ballot. >> listen, if either one of these guys, the first two guys don't get 1,237 pack up, go home. the republican -- >> trump still could, right? >> trump could, yeah, but if he is at 1,236 pack up, go home. >> you're saying he should pack up and go home. >> i'm saying ted cruz -- the republican establishment can say whatever they want but if they don't get 1,237 the party is going to find someone else. >> what do you think the margin trump can show up with, 200 delegates, 125, what's the number his supporters say if you don't give it to him -- >> i think he gets 1,237 or nothing and the same thing with ted cruz. i really do. i think the republican party would love to have a war against donald trump and they'd prefer it and basically say, you know, i mean, they're saying such horrific things about donald trump supporters now. >> oh.

>> it's not like they're going to say, oh, well, we better keep them on our side. no, they've declared war. >> yeah. >> called them racists, a lot of people have been considered america's top conservative -- conservative thinkers have said you can't even be a christian, a real christian if you support donald trump. so, i mean, what else are they -- they're not going to be worried about it. if trump doesn't get the number they will say we have rules for a reason, why home. and it's the same thing with ted cruz. >> if you think about the perfect encapsulation of the entire phenomenon is scott walker who a week before he endorsed ted cruz said publicly that he thought there would be a contested convention, he thought that would be fine and that he thought that if there was a contested convention the likely nominee would be someone who is not running now and then a week later endorses ted cruz. that's about as transparent and you can be. he said a bunch of things about how he was for cruz, but a week earlier he had been saying that

his real goal was was a contested convention. everyone assumes people like scott walker want paul ryan to be the nominee and the game being played right now. >> jeb bush lets out a statement that maybe 4:38 in the morning it's in portuguese so it's like even harder to figure out what he's saying and he never says, again, that he's supporting ted cruz. >> they can't bring themselves to do it. >> can you imagine? >> no. no, i cannot. >> what you say may well be true about the convention but if that is the true what is the point of having primaries and caucuses and these campaigns and all this voting and these guys going through this process of winning votes and having people on their side, why not just having a convention every year and pick a president. >> they used to do it. >> they will say we have rules for a reason, christian, let's bring you in, they will say, will they not -- don't you get a feeling that a lot of the republican establishment would far prefer to lose with somebody else than win with donald trump? and if he doesn't reach the threshold that is clearly stated

in the rules, they'll say we're throwing this convention wide open. >> i think if donald trump does not have 1,237 you're going to see a big argument, particularly coming from the cruz camp, that this is -- this is anybody's game, but i think anybody is really in the cruz camp's mind going defined as ted cruz or donald trump. even there have been movements over the last weekend to say maybe john kasich, we shouldn't be changing this rule 40 threshold that says you have to have a majority of delegates in eight states to move forward. i am much more skeptical than you all that it's going to be somebody besides donald trump or ted cruz. i think ted cruz really has put in place a strategy to collect as many delegates as possible, he's doing well in wisconsin, you saw what happened in north dakota where he was able to get enough votes for his own slate over the state party's preferred slate and collect almost all of the delegates there. we're going to be moving into states like pennsylvania next where even though donald trump is up in the polls, most of the delegates that will come out of

pennsylvania are not legally obligated or bound in any particular way. so right now i think it would be kind of actually funny to see what it must be like to be one of these uncommitted unpledged delegates, how many phone calls they must be getting from the cruz camp, trump camp and possibly kasich camp. if the party does not pick either trump or cruz there is going to be a real potential for massive backlash. it's one thing to say he didn't -- trump didn't get a majority let's open the convention, it's another thing to say let's bring in somebody who failed to perform up to standards in the primaries and install them as the nominee. i think that would be big backlash. >> amidst all this, joe, you write in the "washington post" about the damage that's being done, even as the manhattan billionaire is enduring his most dreadful period of the campaign attacks against trump have reached new heights with commentators focusing their withering criticism on supporters, ignoring the fact that enema of those same voters helped make ronald reagan

president, newt gingrich speaker of the house and marco rubio a u.s. senator but now these voters formerly called common sense conservatives are considered drug add ld losers who are too stupid to determine what is in their best interest. the left wing's what's the matter with kansas is now the gop establishment's what the hell is up with upstate new york and you go on to write, the conservative movement, the republican party and our constitutional republic will survive donald trump's candidacy, maybe it's best to hold off on the political purges for now and believe like reagan that our best days just may lie ahead. there is a lot of damage being done within the party. to the party. >> there is and i gave some quotes talking about how -- >> oh, my board, you have to read it. you won't believe. >> i gave some quotes out there by some top conservative writers saying that -- >> i did a double take. >> -- that donald trump is the,

quote, father fuhrer, these white men without fathers have been waiting to come to seek their way for a very long time and talk about their drug dependency and family anarchy and say they love donald trump speeches, they also love oxycontin. >> who doesn't? >> well, i just wouldn't -- i wouldn't admit it, first of all, on the air, but secondly the attacks have over the past couple -- couple of weeks especially just become withering. >> it's turned on the people. >> as i wrote the article but i also said joan in a goldberg wrote, too, scott looking at the lewandowski/fields clip like it's the zabruder film frame by frame by frame by frame. the obsession is absolutely outrageous. >> i think it's a mistake for any party to go to war with its voters.

it's like a recipe for suicide and i think there's -- there's obviously a huge risk and the tricky thing for the party is to try to figure out a way -- what the party fears is that with trump as the nominee he will not just lose the presidency but the party will lose massively across the board, will lose the senate, will lose the house, will have huge down ticket ramifications. i think their theory on the notion of trying to get somebody else to be -- those who want there to be an alternative candidate who is not in the field right now to be the nominee eventually, they're almost con signed to the notion that they will lose in the fall at the presidential level, but their thought is let's try to save the congress, let's try to save the house and save the senate. i'm not advocating, i'm just saying i think that's the theory. >> i understand that, but, you know, willie, these same voters are going to be the ones helping decide who is going to win the house. >> right. >> these same voters are the voters that helped elect tea party candidates in '14, who helped elect tea party

candidates in '10, who helped elect george w. bush in 2,000 and 2004 and you could keep going back. just because they're now supporting a candidate that everybody finds offensive -- and as i said, my first three candidates, gone, they did not survive the early stages of trumpism. i still think jeb bush would have been one of the best presidents we have had in a very long time, but the thing is there is another battle after this one and the viciousness that's being focused upon trump supporters -- i mean, my brother has been a lifelong baptist, a committed christian, unlike me he is not a terrible person, he is not a back slider, he is a committed christian, and he is being told by people that he reads and respects that you can't be a christian if you support donald trump.

real christians can't support donald trump. nicolle wallace's parents are supporting donald trump, and yet other very established republican writers are explaining the phenomenon away as somebody who is looking for a hitler-like figure. these are not fringe publications and i'm not saying these people's names because they're friends of mine and it's -- but this isn't -- the fringe part of the republican establishment. they are insulting my brother, nicol nicolle's parents and millions and millions of successful americans who are not sitting at home like with needles, discarded needles around their house. >> it's funny you make that reference, i read that piece that you referenced in your "washington post" column that suggested that it was the drug problem, it was heroin and prescription pills that was leading these people to go and vote -- the problems in their

lives were brought on by drugs and they were going to vote for donald trump which i thought was quite a leap to make. i think the point of your piece is the point that's been around for a year now which is people that criticize the donald trump voters don't understand the donald trump voters. they want to go after donald trump and who he is rather than trying to understand why those people are supporting donald trump so they're reaching for things like hitler and heroin and everything else and it's because they don't have jobs, they're frustrated by trade and frustrated by a lot of things. the more productive thing to do would be why they're supporting donald trump and sway them to your side rather than portray them as hitler lovers. >> you look at george w. bush's trade policies, the clinton's tried policies, barack obama's trade policies, it's pretty much the same. there is no alternative. whether you're talking about trade or whether you're talking about taxes for the rich or whether you're talking about whatever, the fact is that neither the republicans nor the

democrats have spoken to people who make less than $50,000 a year. those tax breaks, that doesn't touch their lives. by the way, this is something that conservatives were saying in the postmortem in 2013, we've got to figure out how to reach those people. >> look, the love that the country seems to have had and the appetite the country seems to have had over the last decade or so sending young kids to war who may not have had a lot of opportunity, we've pulled from the same pool of people, the trade, taxes, there is no doubt bernie and trump are dealing with that, but i think we hhve to acknowledge as worried as i am i think you don't attack your own party, you don't attack voters, but there have been so many things said at these rallies and things that people have been unnerved by, not at the rally but when mr. trump could not immediately denounce the kkk, the violence at the rallies, most recently some of the more serious conversations around foreign policy when he was urging asia nation toss perhaps develop nuclear weapons.

i think that also helps fred kate some of the anger and perhaps some of the unexplained talk about attacking supporters from some of these mainstream columnists and so forth, but at the end of the day you don't attack supporters or people in your own party you figure out how you can bring them around. i'm puzzled by how some in the republican party are able to continue embrace a guy who makes the offensive comments he has made about women and racial minorities. you never did that is correct i never did that. we may have disagreed on things but that was not the bases of the disagreement. i understand why some of this criticism is coming from but i don't think it's productive to help win supporters back to the party. still ahead on "morning joe" the washington post bob woodward and robert costa are hear to talk about their revealing interview with the republican front runner. plus, if it's donald trump and hillary clinton in the general election trump thinks he could peel off some bernie sanders supporters to oppose

free trade. we will talk to u.s. secretary of commerce penny pritzger. first here is bill karins. >> still looks like winter in new england this morning, many schools were delayed, this is after snow over the weekend and then the willed windstorm, this house just got crushed in bethesda, maryland. we had a bigotry land on a car killing two people in massachusetts on sunday also. the big windstorm is over with, now we are looking at snow, areas of southern new england, connecticut, massachusetts and a little bit through the upstate. not a lot more, but areas around boston could pick up another 2 to 4 inches along with hartford and areas from providence northward. more annoying than anything else. if we will have maker airport delays it will be throughout now until noon. after that we should clear it out new york, philly and d.c. the snow more in central new england, just plain old rain for your evening.

the other story is warm conditions southern half of the country. usually in april you get a cold shot, it lasts maybe a day, maybe two days, we're looking at this cold air lasting in this region throughout much of this week. early in the week the system exits the northeast, then this rain up in the northwest, heading to the middle of the country. this will be the next storm, not a lot of severe weather with that, that's great. the end of the week just a little bit of instability with some showers and maybe a little snow in the northern great lakes. temperatures well above average for areas of the west to start this week, still cold in the east, and then by the end of this upcoming week we are frigid still throughout the areas of the great lakes to the northeast. it will be a struggle until probably the middle of april until we warm up up in the east. new york city we a id volunteered the snow for the most part just a cold cloudy dreary monday in the big apple. you're watching "morning joe." we will be right back. ♪

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i think we're doing great. i think we're going to win wisconsin. i think. public policy polling just came out and it has me just about even, 1 point down. i can't believe i'm losing to cruz. you can't let this happen, folks. >> coming up on "morning joe," up next, could wisconsin be donald trump's waterloo? nbc's hallie jackson joins us live from that state's capital ahead of tomorrow's primary there. plus bob woodward and bob costa with their interview with the republican front runner. "morning joe" is back in a moment. at an alarming rate. growing fast, you say? we can't contain it any long... oh! you know, that reminds me of how geico's been the fastest-growing auto insurer for over 10 years straight. over ten years? mhm,

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originally when i went out we had 17 people. we're down now to three. i have two leftovers, okay? i call them leftovers. they haven't been nice to me. i will beat them. after i beat them i'm going to be so presidential you are going to be so bored, you're going to say this is the most boring human being i have ever interviewed. >> kasich shouldn't be allowed to run. honestly kasich should not be allowed to run and i will go opposite on you, he hurts trump much more than he hurts cruz. kasich shouldn't be allowed to run under the grounds that rand paul could stay in and he had nothing, marco rubio could have stayed in, jeb bush could have stayed in, they all could have stayed in, they could have just

stayed in, that's all he's doing, he's 1 for 19. kasich shouldn't be allowed to continue and the rnc shouldn't allow him to continue. >> that's donald trump of course, but, mika, we are here back and it's just down right uncomfortable. >> why? >> you know, it's kind of like let it be when you watch let it be and john and paul can't talk to each other. the game change boys hate each other. >> that's all right because that's what they do, it's part of their tension. >> look, halperin not even looking at john. >> what do you think about donald trump saying kasich should drop out? >> it's interesting. let's assume wisconsin goes to cruz and let's assume trump losings some support in new york but wins new york then the big question is the northeast. if trump performs as well in the northeast as he's currently polling he's going to get the majority probably and cruz winning wisconsin does not mean he will be a strong northeastern candidate. can kasich as he has promised be

a strong northeastern candidate? i don't know. i think those two guys want him out not because they think he's irrelevant because because they're worried he can get a lot of delegates in the northeast. >> one thing we can predict is that the media if donald trump loses wisconsin will treat it as have it's v.e. day and there will be streamers going off in times square. >> what are you doing? >> i'm serious. another prediction of the coming end of donald trump. >> well, you know, they've been waiting a long time. >> they've been making that prediction. if you have one prediction. >> it does look like he will lose wisconsin. >> i find it strange that donald trump does this i think this, he has done it with hillary clinton, too, where he talks about how they shouldn't be allowed to run. i get that he wants kasich out -- >> what does that even mean? >> he says the same thing about hillary, she shouldn't be allowed to run. >> where are the referees that decide somebody is not allowed to run? what you want to say is i want

everybody to run, bring everybody in, i'll whip them all. >> i agree that the press will overreact to a trump loss in wisconsin but he could end up with zero delegates. >> that would be a big loss. >> this is an open primary, important general election state, there is no reason why it should be particularly good for ted cruz. >> so? >> so it's -- >> and it's going to be possibly. >> listen, i'm not saying it's meaningless, all i'm saying is people are already saying if he loses wisconsin this could be the end of donald trump. >> waterloo. >> of course he has had the worst week of his entire campaign, but i remember watching the south carolina debate going, now, that is the worst debate i have ever seen in my life by donald trump. >> joining us from madison, wisconsin, nbc news correspondent hallie jackson has been following the cruz campaign. how important is it for the cruz campaign going forward to win wisconsin tomorrow and how does it look for them? >> it's important for a couple of reasons, mika.

number one, this is a different state than places that they've won in the past. so the cruz campaign feels if they can point to a win here it sets them up for success in the northeast. mark makes a good point that there's no guarantee that cruz will do well there, he's got to overperform in the northeast to show that he can be that candidate to move forward in the calendar and take those states. that said remember that wisconsin is an open primary, that's not typically somewhere where cruz would do well but he is polling by double digits ahead of donald trump here. it's a more moderate conservative. a campaign aid tells me the fact that they can bring together different demographics, different geographic areas is pivotal as they try to move forward. a couple other points. this is not important not only for ted cruz, could be one of his biggest wins in the last two wins but important for the stop donald trump movement as a whole. this is a place where they've put a lot of eggs in the basket, i'm told by a couple of strategists that they have ads that are being cut that are for rollout jond wisconsin. one tells me that donald trump's

base looks pretty solid right now, it's not going to expand but it's not going to shrink. that is consistent with what we see on the ground in wisconsin. we spend the day road tripping around the state, talking to folks, we spoke with one woman a republican conservative from a very conservative county and not necessarily a big trump place, she says she's uncomfortable talking about her support for donald trump because she feels as though she is judged for that but she says there is nothing that he could do that would change her mind. keep in mind this is just within the last 24 hours we spoke after his comments about abortion, after his comments about the sort of war on wives that we've been talking about and a lot of discussion wiabout his issues wh women. wisconsin is important for ted cruz, that said we could be talk about this for the next two weeks and new york will help and donald trump could romp there. they will see what happens. >> hallie jackson, thank you very much. so let's bring in the two reporters whose interview with donald trump has been getting plenty of attention. this is from new haven,

connecticut, we have associate editor of the "washington post"" bob woodward and on capitol hill msnbc political analyst bob costa. >> bob woodward, i think part of this idea came from the set in washington on "morning joe" when we were talking about it and -- >> we were frustrated. >> you were frustrated. did you get the answers that you were looking for when you had trump for an hour? >> it's interesting, you said that bob costa and i ought to talk to him because we were going on and on on your show and so we sent him some question areas and we sat down with him for well over an hour and a half, and this was -- if you've looked at the transcript, all kinds of new things. it was in many ways a mind dump, some of them quite extraordinary. i think we underplayed and

underemphasized trump's idea of putting out a list of 10 to 12 judges that he would then put on the supreme court if there was a vacancy. >> bob, i thought that was fascinating -- bob, woodward. i did think that was actually my take away, that for a candidate to do that is fairly unprecedented and if you put out ten people -- it sounded like he had checked with the federalist society, heritage, yeah, you're exactly right, that was a big take away from that interview. >> think about it, if he gets the nomination and trump is on the ballot with his vice presidential running mate, which he told us is going to be a washington insider, effectively these judges are going to be on the ballot and trump said not only is he going to put out the list, but he is going to guarantee and promise that if he has -- as president supreme court nominations it will come

from this list. so absolutely unprecedented mind-boggling. i think it shows his anxiety with the conservative establishment because he told us, he said, oh, they're worried that trump might put the wrong judge there. >> let me say it's a republican that has watched republican candidates put the wrong judges in there for 30 years now, it's actually, mark halperin, sounds like a pretty good idea for me. >> if it's a good list. >> if it's a good list of conservative judges. >> bob costa, great interview, great piece and as bob woodward suggested you guys covered a lot of new ground. i'm wondering why you think mr. trump is doing all these long interviews, what purpose do you think it's serving since they seem to create in the case of your piece and "the new york times" piece as much controversy as they do to allay people's fears about whether he's got the depth and right positions. >> it's a great question.

i think trump really considers themself his own strategist and he sees the media, especially cable television and television at large, as the terrain in which he regularly fights his battles each and every day. but on a sublevel he often feels like he has wants to make sure he makes a case to the party and to his script iks about the depth of his ideas and his proposals. so he has been more accessible and open in than other candidates in some ways in having these long form interviews as he tries to reassure those long he's just running a day to day media fight that he does have som longer thoughts and longer form ideas. >> i want to ask everybody around the table and ask you two guys can you name a candidate in the middle of a heated campaign that has talked to the "new york times" david sanger, i guess, talked to you guys for well over an hour, talk to the washington post editorial board for well

over an hour, talked to eileen dowd. i know president obama hasn't sat down with the "washington post" for seven years. i know hillary doesn't do this. any precedent here? >> i don't know of one. what's interesting here and i think so is important the instructions we have from our editor at the washington post marty barron is tell us as much as you can about these candidates and the theory of the case and i think it's a really important one that when it gets to the november election no one can get up and say, oh, we didn't know who these people were. so we're going to press on this and what's fascinating about trump and there's so much that's fascinating and which has alarmed with good cause lots of people is he's kind of spontaneous. so bob costa asked him about,

well, you have on your staff cory and hope hicks, the spokesperson and they've signed these airtight binding nondisclosure agreements and trump said he would try to do the same thing in the federal government, which i've never heard of, i don't know that it's legally possible. >> wow. so then along those lines, bob costa and then bob woodward, the frustration that, bob woodward, you were expressing on the set during the whole -- when the whole concept of this interview came up is that you never get answers from him and you actually went around in circles when we let you take the stage for about 20 minutes with him to talk about the wall and you never got any answers. did you get any answers that you bob costa, i will start with you. >> we have some reporting on that that's going to come later today, things we've discovered about trump's proposal on the wall so stay tuned on that front. i just want to say bob woodward

i know will not mention this but i thought the most fun part of the interview and interesting was the exchanges about the presidency because we have so much about the day to day campaign, but to hear bob talk about richard nixon and abraham lincoln with donald trump to get his thoughts on how he would actually be as president and he says he's going to have this aggressive trade agenda in his first 100 days, renegotiate military deals and trade deals and he makes this claim about the national debt and getting rid of it in eight years. many economists say is dubious, but he really believes at the core of his message that trade is the solution for nearly all of the u.s.'s economic woes. >> bob woodward. >> also this was astonishing. he's acting as a stock tip adviser and he literally said he believes it's a terrible time to invest in the stock market and that looming is a very massive

recession. so we're going to now see when the stock market opens whether people are listening to him on this because there was no ambiguity on this. he just said, this is the way it is. he knows wall street. and like no one -- and in fact he went on to say he doesn't need wall street. he almost sounded like bernie sanders for a moment. >> oh, my goodness. >> bob costa, you've been talking to donald trump off and on for months now, right? so just give me a since of the ways in which you think trump has and hasn't grown as a candidate over the arc of your experience in interviewing him. >> i've been intervening trump about the campaign since january when he started to hire advisors. the key thing i would say to that is he has evolved in how he handles news and he handles headlines, i think he has become more adaptive to the constant flux of coverage, but he has not

changed in the sense that he constantly speaks from the gut and he does not really weigh the consequences in a political fashion. it's the same kind of trump shooting from the hip that i used to see back in january and february that we see right now regardless of the different stakes. >> and bob woodward, bob costa said that you spoke to him about past presidents. who did you think trump saw himself as? what type of president? >> well, see, he's straddling here, he is not sure. one moment he will say, oh, yeah, i'm going to bow to the reality and get a vice presidential running mate, somebody who is tied in to the washington establishment, and then he goes off on his own and on this key question which you know so well, joe, because we talked with him at length about this, that all successful politics is coalition building. you have to reach out.

you have to embrace and bring in other people and he's back and forth on this. no, i'm going to do it my way, i'm not going to do it, oh, yeah, i need to start making calls and bringing people in. so i think the core of him and i think bob costa is exactly right, is he's going to do it his way, but he realizes and all kinds of people have piled on him and said, look, you've alienated just about everyone in the republican party and you want to be the nominee of that party, and so he hears that necessi necessity, but at least i don't have -- i have not seen or heard any -- bob costa knows better than anyone -- any example where he's really reached out. >> all right. bob woodward and robert costa, thank you both. fascinating. coming up, bernie sanders tough talk on free trade worked in michigan and now he hopes the

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all right. joining us now u.s. secretary of commerce penny pritzger. she serves as a point person for the administration on the issue of trade. secretary pritzger is going to be delivering a speech todayed on could called commercial diplomacy. good to have you on set. >> it's grade to have you here, madam secretary. let me ask you what your thoughts are as somebody who is out on the front lines every day with international trade and promoting trade, what do you think when you hear donald trump talking about a 45% tariff against china, when you hear bernie sanders talk about reversing nafta and more and more candidates take more of an isolationist protectionist view on those issues. >> first of all, thank you for having me here. i think a lot of these proposals are oversimplifications of a far more complex situation. i think there is a lack of understanding. if you were to put, for example,

45% tariff on our trade with mexico, that's a lack of understanding as to how integrated our supply chain is and how many products we make together. and so i think you need to step back and think about trade and what -- why it's important that we have access to markets. 95% of customers are outside the united states, the -- some of the fastest growing markets in the world are outside the united states, trade agreements allow our small and medium sized businesses to have access to those markets and it reduces not only tariffs, which are taxes on our products, but it also removes trade barriers, as well as elevating labor standards and environmental standards in other countries, which makes our american worker and our american products more competitive globally. >> mark. >> what are the sectors in the economy now that you think are doing particularly well that you think could drive growth rates

higher? >> construction is doing well, housing is doing well, consumer retail is doing well. so, you know -- and one of the things that, you know, is -- has happened over the last eight years coming off the great recession is we've really diversified their economy, which is a real asset for the united states. you will never have where every part of your economy is always growing. so having different strengths within our economy is really critical. and being able to export is an extraordinarily important -- you know, 11.5 million americans jobs depend solely on exports. >> the three sectors you sighted, though, you can't export housing. >> there are some head winds on exports but you have to take the long view, this is not about year in and year out this is about the long view and recognizing frankly in the asia pacific region that market is going from 500 million middle class to 3.2 billion middle class in just the next 15 years.

our companies and their workers and their employees need to have access to those markets and that's what our trade agreements give us. the other thing to keep in mind is other countries are not standing still. over 100 free trade agreements have been negotiated and put in place since 2000 in the asia-pacific region, that's removing tariffs, removing barriers for other countries. we need a better level playing field for our own companies. >> i don't want to draw you too much into politics but talk about trade agreements i want to talk about tpp for a secretary. secretary clinton said tpp was the gold standard for trade agreements and now she has come out and said she is against tpp. what changed -- forgetting about her position, did the agreement change in some substantive way between 2012 and 2016. i know it got negotiated in that period, but what would be the basis on which you would go from calling it the gold standard to

finding it not acceptable? >> i don't understand that conclusion because frankly having looked at this agreement, studied in agreement, i think it is the gold standard. it is the toughest trade agreement out there in the world. can you pick holes in the agreement? of course. any negotiation there's a give and take. but frankly the idea that 12 countries have come together and said we're going to lower tariffs, we're going to raise labor standards, we're going to make it -- you know, one of the fastest growing service export in the united states are our digital products, think of our leadership in the world. tpp creates an absolute level playing field for american companies around the world. >> but did it change at all over time? >> of course it's evolved, but it has evolved to be better not worse. >> so you agree with hillary clinton in 2012? but not 2016? >> i agree that it is an agreement that should be passed now. >> what do you think about

donald trump's statement to bob woodward and bob costa that we're heading toward a massive recession. any evidence of that? >> i don't hear that. i talk to -- i've talked to 2,100 ceos since i've been in job, i talk to ceos every week in and week out, i always am asking them what are they seeing. they see the united states as doing well. i haven't had a ceo tell me otherwise. they see the rest of the world as challenged, but they see the united states as doing well. >> last jobs report there was even an uptick in wages. >> exactly. >> which is where we're struggling a great deal. secretary penny pritzger, thank you very much for coming on the show. >> thank you. >> you will be speaking about commercial diplomacy today at the council on foreign relations. look forward to that. that does it for us this morning. steve kornacki picks up the coverage after a quick break.

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and good morning. i'm steve kornacki at the top of the agenda right now, it is condition critical for donald trump in wisconsin. voting starts in that state less than 24 hours from now and the polls have turned against trump. a double digit deficit in some of the recent surveys against a surging ted cruz. is it too