well, i'm chris matthews in milwaukee, wisconsin where voters give a nasty swipe at donald trump and delivered a wicked wake-up call to hillary clinton. trump was walloped on the republican side by 20 points with clinton also taking a double digit defeat ripping open for the next two weeks their separate claims to their party's presidential nomination so here's where things stand at this hour tonight. bernie sanders is the projected winner on the democratic side and leads secretary clinton by 12 points. 9 gap is even wider on the republican side as i said, ted cruz was backed by nearly every major establishment figure in the state.

earned nearly 50% of the vote tonight. cruz told his supporters earlier tonight that the race was fundamentally or has fundamentally shifted. here he is. >> tonight is a turning point. it is a rallying cry. it is a call from the hard-working men and women of wisconsin to the people of america. we have a choice. a real choice. as a result of the people of wisconsin defying the media, defying the pundits i am more and more convinced that our campaign is going to earn the 1,237 delegates needed to win the republican nomination. >> well, we'll see. anyway donald trump's camp responded with. donald j. trump withstood the onslaught of the establishment yet again, lyin'

ted cruz had the governor of wisconsin, many conservative talk radio show hosts and the entire party apparatus behind him, not only was he propelled by the anti-trump super pacs spending countless millions of dollars on false advertising against mr. trump, but he was coordinating with his own super pac's which is illegal who totally control him. ted cruz is worse than a puppet. he is a trojan horse being used by the party bosses attempting to steal the nomination from interest frump. anyway for his part, senator sanders says his campaign has momentum. >> with our victory tonight in wisconsin, we have now won seven out of eight of the last caucus caucuses. [ cheers and applause ] and we have won almost all of them with overwhelming land slide numbers. [ cheers and applause ] >> well, hillary clinton

congratulated sanders by twitter and the question tonight, where do these candidates go from here. on the republican side has wisconsin given a playbook to the stop trump movement that other states can follow to denight the billionaire path to the 1,237 delegates he needs to clinch this thing. are we headed to an open convention in cleveland. let's bring in our roundtable. chris janisinjansing, john nich the left of everybody here among the rest. i do think i want to ask you something. i was going to ask which makes life interesting. life signs. are the american voters the people that decide elections 20% in the middle and every fight, are they awake, alive and saying something right now we hadn't heard before? what's the voice of wisconsin for the country tonight? >> look, i think what wisconsin said is it wants both these

contests to go on and i think people will look for, you know, some sort of endorsement of a particular individual. certainly sanders is very popular on the democratic side and did very well. i'd be careful on the republican side thinking this was a big endorsement for ted cruz. the fact of the matter is wisconsin has perhaps the most developed out conservative infrastructure in the united states and that infrastructure lined up behind the candidate they decided to put in the empty suit. it happened to be ted cruz, but i don't think for a second that that same infrastructure exists in many other states. most other states have had not have three gubernatorial elections in the last five years. >> are we alive? are we thinking. >> wisconsin showed how trump can be defeated and it really is by appealing to not just evangelicals but white evangelicals or frequent churchgoers are the most dead set against donald trump and saw the same thing in utah with mormons against him but john is right. the infrastructure is unique. you had the entire gamut of

right wing talk radio hugely influential with average voters dead set against donald trump and this armada of the republican -- of what there is of the conservative movement all aligned against him and you won't have that in new york. you're not going to have that in pennsylvania. i don't know that you can keep this anywhere else. >> what happened to the armada historically. >> it went national. >> the real armada. >> had a little trouble. >> wiped out. >> did well for awhile. >> yeah, i mean like -- >> give me what you hear in the atmosphere, the zeitgeist of the public tonight. wisconsin is damn important. it always has been. >> this appetite for the campaign to continue. >> yeah. >> voters -- if there's one thing -- i remember back in 2004 of following that. on the democratic side. it was all this sort of desperate who are we going to get against bush, desperate, can we fund a general. wesley clark. no, no, no and howard dean had

that moment and as soon as john kerry won new hampshire, boom, let's done it. everyone fell in line. 2012 mitt romney if you look at his average performance over time the line goes up like this. what that is is the party falling in line and saying, this is our guy. let's do it. that is not happening on either side right now and it is remarkable. >> no -- >> there is no consolidation. we have not -- i was expecting to see more -- on the democratic side. i have not seen it. certainly -- you're not seeing anything like that. you're seeing this historical effort to block this single candidate that people identify as an existential threat to a party that's been around for 150 years so the contest royal caribbeans -- roilss on. >> are people thinking about the future of america. what they look like, the best encapsulation was my trip to rippon, wisconsin, the home, birthplace of the republican party 1854, democrats, whigs,

free stores and got together in this white schoolhouse and founded the party on the idea of unity and ending slavery. >> ending the expansion. >> and talk to them about what the publrepublican party today. >> they're still trying to figure out what it is. >> throw in on that, you know, who is really popular in rippon in 2008? barack obama. the fact of the matter is, i don't think rippon has changed. i think it was a progressive party. >> you guys clean up here. this failure to gel. the pudding is not jelling. >> people are liking these conversations. i have been -- so this weekend on friday night i went to the frisch fry which is the republicans. saturday night i went to the democratic dinner and i sat down and talked to so many people. i can't tell you the number of groups of friends, of neighbors, husbands and wife, girlfriends and boyfriends who are on

separate -- have separate ideas about who should and they -- i said, this must cause some really difficult times in your househo household. well, yeah, but we like having this conversation. i have never seen in any of the campaigns i have covered a deeper electorate. people are really getting into this. they don't want to let it go. they want to hear what people have to say. i kept looking for tanking on the numbers of the debates. i thought aren't people sick of them yet? they weren't, were they? people keep watching the town halls. engaged and want to stay engaged and care about making the right decision. >> one of the great things, i guy up in the bronx and the way the electoral college system works every year there are in ten state, they get all the candidates' time and usually the primary calendar is front-loaded enough it doesn't go deep enough. i'm watching 17,000 people to go to the bronx to see mary's park and 17,000 go to watch a person running for president of the united states. the apollo theatre, the bronx,

statten island, howard beach -- >> we'll have a new york primary. >> let me bring in from new york robert costa. there is no jelling going on here. this isn't happening. it isn't moving towards closure. people are enjoying the ongoing reality of getting to decide, unfortunately they're only down to two or three candidate, probably two in each party now. robert. >> it was a tough night for john kasich. this was a rust belt state, state he thought he would have done better. we haven't seen the republican party rally to cruz. the movement, right. the activist, tea party, ideological conservatives got a horse now on cruz but it's a long two weeks between now and new york and trump will have 10,000 people, long island tomorrow, big rally. it's going to be a big question. can he bounce back and pif at to being presidential. the thing he's always resisted doing. >> why doesn't he do it?

>> he just keeps talking about the fight. bob woodward and i sat down with him and he said, i'm not going to reach out to the party. i'm not going to act presidential. change his behavior but he's under pressure now. more and more looking like a contested convention. i spoke to people very close to trump tonight. i said where is he tonight? what's he doing. he's in troufrp tower with his family watching the returns and helped type out his statement, hard-hitting statement against cruz and it's about turning the corner to now tomorrow in new york to see if he can look ahead talking about california too. they're saying this thing is probably going to go to june for sure and be there later this week and go to his golf course there and have a news conference, try to get back his swagger. >> but, you know, chris -- >> let me -- robert, i want to ask about this 1,237. when i was talking to him last week, he still is talking about maybe getting a gimme, a couple hundred delegates. he doesn't have to get to 1,237, a golf line, a gimme. does he still expect to get a

gimme or does he know he has to get to 1,237 or he's cooked. >> he thinks he can get a gimme and sticking with golf chris, he thinks, look, there's not a pure cutoff mark, a certain score he needs to meet. he thinks if he gets close enough and shoots 77 instead of 76 in golf terms in terms of the delegates he can get there and make the point. you hear this from his statement tonight, if he's close enough, if he's near 1,237, 50 delegates away, 100 away, that this thing was stolen from him. steal the line from the statement that stood out to me, already starting to make the case if he doesn't get to 1,237 that it's stolen from him. that's going to be a indication he could make going into the convention floor. >> yeah, let me go back. if trump makes that case, who does he make it to? we were screwed or some other brooklyn thing, it was stolen from us. what good does that do? if he doesn't get the nomination does he run third party or stew? >> i mean i think in both of the

parties what you have is this amorphous thing called the establishment and you have particularly white working class voters and i think if there was a petri dish for the anxieties of white working voters, this is a predodge nabtsly white working state and seeing the anxieties of that group of voters play out among the most liberal democrats and most conservative republicans. if he is denied it i think you'll sigh an explosion. amorphous thing that's wrong and even by the bases of these two parties. >> sorry. >> what happens if he gets the nomination. >> at the gets the nomination. >> the hard right walks out and the same kind of crap going on. >> the establishment will focus downticket and try to save the house and senate and don't see any appetite. >> you open ed it up. what's more disistic, a republican party that gets stuck with trump, even though three-quarters of america don't like him or dumped him in favor of cruz or ryan.

what's for crazy. >> they should dump him. >> what would be more crazy. >> they're not going to win either way. >> much more crazy. look, this is a political party that as pointed out a couple of minutes ago that was founded more than 1 o00 years ago. there is a reality to it and certain points in the history of the republican party it is just said we're on the wrong track. in 1940 this party was headed towards nominationing an isolationist and no, let's just get rid of all these guys and take wendell wilkie. i'm not saying we're in the same moment but sometimes a party has to become adult and its leaders have to say we'll take the attacks, we're going to take the criticism but pushing this stuff aside. because it doesn't work. >> they weren't going to run as an anti-war party either. they did it again in '52 with ike. >> by the way, america first which is -- donald trump. using recently.

>> he doesn't know, does he? >> no way. >> i didn't know, mussolini but, look, i don't say this casually. at a certain point this party has to become an adult party. >> i think you're speaking normanatively. it's going to happen. >> no, if the -- if your interest is incontinuity of it you can't nominate trump. if in terms of what's the most -- so i think that -- what is the most divisive, not nominating trump. soy -- sflt worse thing that happened to the republican party is nominating trump. you four. is nominating trump the worst thing. >> yeah. >> hands. >> it depends on what comes afterward. >> if he becomes his party. >> not all care primarily about the continuity of the party. marco rubio tries -- >> you said i think there is a democratic establishment.

it's called the clintons. i really think -- back to robert costa, sir. last thought from you. trump still think he's going to win at the convention going in with 1,237? >> he does and it's really a behind-the-scenes game right now with trump. i spoke today with ed brookover, the guy running his delegate operation. they're starting to reach out to all these unbound delegates this states like pennsylvania where you don't really need to be bound on the first ballot. they're bringing in paul manafort, a veteran, he's already gaming out california. this is a long game. trump is going to have a big new york stretch now for the next two weeks but his eye of the campaign and people behind him, it's on cleveland and the delegates because he has to build the relationships as well as the delegate number right now so if it goes to a second ballot, or a third ballot he has the political capital to sustain his candidacy. >> let's wait to see roger stern, paul manafort's partner come in too. we'll see. you'll be reporting something like that. we're coming right back. thank you, robert costa, "the

washington post." coming back with more from milwaukee and wild conversationing up here. our live coverage continues after this.

i know a little bit about the office. i spent the first 18 years of my life in brooklyn, new york. please keep this a secret. live live do not tell secretary clinton. she's getting a little nervous and i don't want her to get more nervous, but i believe we've got an excellent chance to win new york and a lot of delegates in that state. >> i just love senator sanders. i want her to get more nervous. of course, he does. that was senator sanders coming off his huge victory out in wisconsin today. back with chris jansing, jacob sober off, joy reid and in an editorial board, sanders was pressed over many of his

positions including on guns. here's the revenge. "the daily news qualification asked the victims of the sandy hook massacre are looking to have the right to sue for damages, the manufacturers of those weapons. do you think that is something that should be expanded? quote, do i think the victims of a crime with a gun should be able to sue the manufacturer, is that your question? s>> sanders replied, no, i don'. look at "the daily news." here's our verdict on you, senator. we don't like your answer. what did you make that have? let me start with chris. do you get a sense the "daily news" is with hillary on that. a hell of a shot. >> the front of the tab employed and asked him about this wall street stuff. this has been his big -- if there's one thing he has been on point with on message with -- >> don't you know what a political revolution is. >> he didn't know what could be done or how it could be done. >> to your end and start back

across the room. i have a suspicion -- they say in washington the safest vote is the vote for something that doesn't pass because then you're never blamed. or the vote against something that does. because you're never blamed. a lot of people i think vote strategically. they vote for bernie because they want to keep hillary on other toes but haven't indicted to make bernie president by any means. the other theory bernie has some mo. hey, i'm going with bernie now. what is the impulse you saw? was it because bernie looked like he might win it or can't win it and it's a safe vote. >> in wisconsin i talked to a lot of folks and saw both of these candidates campaign and frankly they were both on the top of their game. hillary clinton gave one of the best speechs i ever heard her gave on the supreme court a week ago and chris would back me up on this, a really powerful at the state democratic founder's day dinner and was on her game, sanders, as well, was giving by far his best stump speeches.

much more local and much more connected. bottom line, i think they had a real campaign here. i don't think people were voting casually for bernie sanders. in this state they like what had they heard and voted for him but i will emphasize to you, that the feeling when i talk to people in wisconsin is, this is early in the process. they weren't thinking, you know, we're -- >> they weren't also thinking they're making the final choice on the democratic nomination. it was more as if this is a real fight and love being a part of it. >> the old line of the left i grew up in the '60s was in d.c., november doesn't count. >> i don't think they were quite there. wisconsin is a politically mature state. they had an election in 2010 where, you know, people were a little casual about it. they got scott walker. so these people do take politics seriously. but they've also become very hardened and very edgy in their politics and the fact is sanders' message particularly that pro-labor mess.

>> joy, bernie sanders will be 75 in september. okay. he's obviously a rugged guy. give speeches 40 hours a day, unbelievable. this is an interesting concept. what's new in american life that says 75 is a good time to start the presidency. look how obama aged and george w. didn't feel -- >> 70 is the new 40. >> i don't think it is. i think it's the new 63 maybe sflt only people i heard raise that concern are older voters themselves. i guess they're feeling their own age and feel it might not be possible for him to be a robust and vigorous president at that age. i will tell you what i think we're in is an age where people's expectation, the noor has been raised. we had the first african-american president and for a particularly democrats they feel that the magnitude of change, the possibility of it is just greater so i think you see in sanders' supporters the desire for greater. desire even if it doesn't seem

realistic. >> i'm wondering are they voting for him or the message or send a message or think they you had be commander in chief. >> we'll find out in new york. it's a closed primary. >>. i think -- i don't think it's that complicated. i think they like bernie's politics. >> would they like him to be commander in chief? >> i think most bernie sanders voters are not thinking in that sense. i mean even just saying commander in chief. commander in chief is shorthand and arguably, the way -- >> life or death. >> and the most important but i don't think most -- i don't think -- i don't think that's the terminology that most of bernie sanders supporters would use to refer to the president of the united states. >> i think the message he has -- i watched a bernie sanders ad the other day. it said -- it wasn't rocket science, break up the big banks, $15 minimum wage, free college tuition. >> universal health care. >> universal health care, basically this is a bunch of

social democratic items and get money out of politics and break up the corrupt system. >> when i was in his field office just yesterday and i'm talking to these folks who have left their jobs and are taking their money out of their savings and going from state to state to state. these are the true believers, right. these are the folks going door to door and making the phone calls and doing whatever is asked of them and smart and they'll say, look, i know there's not going to be free college tuition. i don't think that's going to happen. i would like for it to happen. i have big college debts but i believe he'll move us in the right direction and i believe his message is pure and i believe when he says something and don't believe that about hillary clinton. i believe when he says something there's no political agenda behind it. >> i said, that's good but i said you know how it works, you need 60 votes in the senate -- he said, the trouble with you is you're from inside the beltway. he drew a big circle around me like i'm hopeless.

i said in counterpart inside the beltway is where they pass the tax laws. you have to deal with that. i guess that's not romantic enough. >> are people voting strategically for bernie to keep hillary on her toes? my friends people i talk to if anybody is voting strategically around bernie it's actually even if they support bernie they may vote for hillary because they don't want to risk it. >> to inspire us all here's sanders. he has the mojo. here he is tonight. >> let me say a word well, maybe two words, i don't know, about what momentum is all about. momentum is starting this campaign 11 months ago and the media determining that we were a fringe candidacy. momentum is starting the campaign 60 to 70 points behind

secretary clinton. momentum is that within the last couple of weeks there have been national polls which have had us one point up or one point down. [ cheers and applause ] momentum is that when you look at national polls or you look at statewide polls, we are defeating donald trump by very significant numbers. [ cheers and applause ] and in almost every instance in national polls and in state polls, our margin over trump is wider than is secretary clinton. [ cheers and applause ] >> necessary gestures will be

codified someday. every instance momentum. da larry david. >> this sense of is this a sort of sending a message or this sort of sense of the what's realistic. right. three years ago when i was first starting my show, we covered the fast food worker strikes and it was a completely fringe idea. completely fringe that there would be a $15 minimum wage. >> what was it then? >> what were they getting at burger skink. >> $7.50. >> people said there would never be a $15 minimum wage. two of the three largest states in the union is passed $15 minimum wages three years later. if they had listened to the advice that said this is a preposterous ask and we're far from getting it they would -- they only got there because they inkissed on something people said was impossible. >> what's the federal minimum wage going to be a year from now. >> if there wasn't anyone

pushing 15 it would be lower than what it ends up being. free college tuition, legislation is a negotiating process but opening asks anchoring -- >> who else is doing it besides bernie. >> donald trump. nobody is going to believe there is a wall. don't think the mexican government is going to pay for the wall. they think at least he gets serious about illegal immigration. what else could it mean? people aren't crazy. >> yeah. >> remember, what -- >> think about what sanders' slogan is, a future you can believe in. now, trump is the exact opposite of that. make america great again. so trump is saying, you know, let's go back someplace because we don't like where we're at. sanders says, i think especially, that's right, 81% of under 30 vote, sanders says we'll go someplace, we owe that. it might as well be good rather than bad. you know. >> wait, but i think -- >> never able to -- no record of

netting anything done in the senate. i don't want to squash the dream. we'll be right back with joy reid. our coverage continues from wisconsin primary. we got the results.

either before cleveland or at the convention.

in cleveland together we will win a majority of the delegates and together we will beat hillary clinton in november. >> well, you like our continuing coverage of the wisconsin primary. live from milwaukee. the lakefront brewery and here with chris hayes, jacob soboroff, joy reid and, chris, i hear you're leaving us. going back to new york. what was your favorite moment here? >> oh, that's a very good question. >> did anybody say anything nice to you. >> this is the best moment. >> just all of us to be here together. kumbaya to you. >> this is getting really nice. >> campfire. >> what i loved. i was at two polling places and these heavy republican districts had 61% one, one of 56%. i think the enthusiasm people getting out to vote is an extraordinary thing. i think them getting engaged in the process is extraordinary and

going into the field office and seeing people working, it was an icy -- people were coming in and going out and knocking on doors and i thought, man, democracy is a really impressive thing. >> this is wanted our network to do. i want to show the presses. i want to show not just the results because there's so many hours -- you guys, you guys especially know how to walk backwards. you can't talk backwards. how did you learn the ginger rogers technique, walk back through endless hallway, chris, i don't know how many corners you turned but every time -- >> it went all the way around. it was like -- >> yeah. >> i don't think the marquette folks are so happy the ink they were getting is that. >> the jesuit school, give them a shot. >> particularly with the voter i.d. stuff going on. the amount of hurdles that people had to go through, at madison, you know -- >> explain that. how many steps where -- >> it was basically like -- i

said earlier it's like getting your license and ledge station when you get pulled over by a police officer. you have to pull your proof of enrollment at the university -- >> which you had to access through a special system, print it out on a bar kind like going to the airport and still over a thousand people, almost 2,000 people sort of the biggest polling place i saw at the night, happened in multiple placing showed up to shot. people wanted to come out despite the hurdles. >> like getting on el al. they interrogate you to get on the plane. >> take everything out of your suitcase. >> war was your bar mitzvah. >> my favorite moment was up in green bay. they had very long lines in green bay and people were waiting up to two hours and there were some sanders young folks who were toward the front of the line and some cruz backers showed up and said, you know, we just have a very short time of time on a break from work and the sanders backers let the cruz backers get in front of

them in line and i thought to myself -- >> crew strufrp. >> yeah, maybe. >> i felt, i felt wisconsin was illustrating socialism. >> but you know what, i hope not to be a downer but i do hope it will go back and unpack what the real world impact was. i think that the long lines and the stick-to-itiveness of people can make you think that perhaps voter i.d. and voter suppression isn't quite so bad but the actual suppressive it affect it has on voters and by the way there was one outcome that perhaps the progressives were not so sheery which is you did have a tightening of the conservative grip on the state supreme court. it's going to come out of tonight. >> isn't it awful -- ? ten years and one of the people who said the motion ex-treat things i think i've ever heard a public official said will be spending a decade -- >> isn't it amazing how much we're learning,

superdelegates -- >> unbound. >> and gone to caucuses which everybody doesn't vote. so many -- of course -- the electoral college. >> the process -- every time i'm in a room with a camera showing something i think to myself well, this is good television but bad democracy. it's great that we have caucuses and we can show the room and showing the lines, the factor of the matter there should be nothing to show and you don't show people doing things easily. >> can i amly phi? those long lines, were a result of the fact that the state of wisconsin under governor scott walker tightened up early voting. they took away weekend voting and night voteing. >> i wonder why they did that. i've been watching it. if you're in a demographic bind and not as many white people make it harder to vote. thank you, chris jansing. >> yes. >> who doesn't express opinions and jacob soboroff who invented the back-walk. >> michael jackson did.

>> patent pending. >> the rest of the roundtable sticking with us. much more from milwaukee right after this. man 1: you're new.

man 2: i am. woman: ex-military? man 2: four tours. woman: you worked with computers? man 2: that's classified, ma'am. man 1: but you're job was network security? man 2: that's classified, sir. woman: let's cut to the chase, here... man 1: what's you're assessment of our security? man 2: [ gasps ] porous. woman: porous? man 2: the old solutions aren't working. man 2: the world has changed. man 1: meaning? man 2: it's not just security. it's defense. it's not just security. it's defense. bae systems.

welcome back to our special election coverage of the wisconsin primary that was done today. live from milwaukee still. showed big results today. ted cruz is the projected winner tonight in the badger state with 93% of the vote in now. cruz up by 14 over trump. 14-point spread. 49-35. bernie sanders the projected winner, the hillary side by 13 beating hillary by 13. joining us is howie jackson who covers the cruz campaign by the minute along with former cruz campaign communications director rick tyler. everybody else will zone in on you two. i am a suburban -- >> in the actual city but i lived in washington for the last 47 years and i am a city guy. i don't get the cruz thing.

i don't get him but let's not talk about him personally. what he looks like. how he comes across but his movement. rick, you were in the belly of the beast. who was he with that seems to be thrilled with this guy? they're not just voting against trump but voting for cruz. >> there are a millions of americans who feel they're getting hammered and their government is too overbearing and passed obamacare and passed things that they're not anti-government, they just want government to work within its means, within its constitutional bounds and a lot of people feel like they're restricting our gun rights and forcing us to buy health care and forcing us -- drive up prices and have all these regular laces and common core, just the government is just in our lives and these people don't want government -- they just want to be left alone. >> specifically when you talk about cruz, though, because that i think would apply to a lot of folks leaders in the conservative movement. for cruz when you go to the events and talk to people supporting him over and over you

hear a couple of thing, number one the constitution. ted cruz is a discipline candidate and has been pushing the message -- >> ten commandments. >> for months, for a year since he launched his campaign in march. the other thing you hear, messaging from ted cruz he has been pushing for a long time. he will do what he says he's going to do. people echo that. almost word for word when you talk to him about why they are supporting him. you hear talk about the supreme court and some of the other issues that people, you know, are hearing ted cruz talk about after justice scalia died you would be amazed how many brought that up at town halls because it was part of his message. >> the republican party, the conservatives felt like, look, we gave them the majority in the house and senate and felt we were better off with harry reid and nancy pelosi and didn't get anything. >> cruz can bring together people -- ? i'm con founded by this. i look at all that happened since the early '60s. it used to be you went to school in a rural area. king james bible. somebody read from it and we

felt like protestants all together. no -- everybody is same. you want that back? >> the what -- >> do you want that back. >> i think that's fine. how is that going to hurt anybody. >> organized prayer. do you want -- >> i don't think the state should be -- that's -- >> how many of the old-time religion do you really want? no gay marriages. >> no, it's not anti-gay. i think -- it is that -- >> cruz doesn't believe -- >> it's the other way around. people respect christian values and believe that marriage between one man and one woman -- no, they can't believe it. >> the cruz campaign, i just want to be clear on the policy. the cruz campaign does not believe in believes that supreme court decision was wrongly decided and would -- >> the states. not in the constitution. the marriage is not in the constitution. >> point being they think it's wrong -- >> yeah. >> that is -- >> yeah, they oppose it.

>> talk about values. you talk about growing up in the city. you know, philly, let's talk about new york values tlachlt -- >> that's been talked about. >>. every new yorker knows exactly what it means. >> that's the line ted cruz will use in the bronx tomorrow. >> what's that, talks loud? is that new york values. >> just go upstate. you'll find out. >> but i grew up in a town of about a thousand people. and i didn't know what new york values was. i don't have that -- i don't have that anti-new york thing that some -- >> like what they used to call san francisco values. cultural -- probably does. >> jeane kirkpatrick said san francisco democrat meant gay. >> and people they feel are less moral. in terms of what the cruz campaign says is return to constitutionality is what was miss something barack obama and the fact that a lot of these is a convulsion and reaction to the obama presidency. i was on -- sitting on a radio

show and taking calls from conservatives, a lot of cruz supporters and said obama has destroyed the constitution. he's taken the presidency outside the realm of constitutionality. in their mines they have destroyed the second amendment and destroyed the boundaries that the presidency was written to be in by the founders and that is a part of it. >> destroyed the second amendment. i think the nra each republic--f pro-democrats have well. obama would have been going further and because of newtown and wasn't able to. >> let me ask you this. kasich needs 11% 1% of the delegates to win. i don't make a lot of predictions. i predict he won't get there. cruz had this line of kasich should drop out because of it. mathematically impossible. cruz will get to needing more than 100% pretty soon.

probably might be after new york. when he gets to a point where he can't get 100% he'll stay in the race, right? >> let's talk about when he does. i'm not sure he will. >> right now i believe cruz and trump will arrive at the convention. neither which will have a majority. >> right, but i'm saying mathematically there will be a point before that. before the convention where cruz in order to get 1,237 would have to win more than 100% available delegates a la the way john kasich does now and if the argument kasich should drop out because he can't do why wouldn't that apply to cruz? >> it's a fair question to ask. >> i would have to do all the math. >> getting to where i don't like to go. >> same numbers. i think it's going to be a great state. when trump gets to the convention, say -- he wasn't dough what the gimme is. 100 shy, 00 shy, 200 shy and tries to beg marco rubio for his box of marbles and goes to kasich, can i have your box of

marbles because all i need is 50 and by the way the offer is good at that point. i'm going to be the nominee i can give you anything you want. post office job for your kid. i might give you something. >> i have to give away. [ all talking at once ] >> abraham lincoln. >> you got to think more of the republican side. more than the post office job. >> there's a lot of goodies to give away. that's why it's close on the hill the president can always win. we'll be back. on this big -- it was a big primary tonight. back after this.

we're back with some big thoughts following the big wins in wisconsin tonight. let me ask you about a serious question, joy reid. my friend. why is it that we refer to the two republican keys by their surnames, cruz and trump and we inevitably refer to the democratic candidates by bernie and hillary. answer, please. >> i think because of branding. hillary branded herself many years ago when she dropped it from hillary rodham clinton to hillary clinton to just hillary and started actually when she ran for the united states senate in 2000 and rebranded herself as a one-word name, madonna and sting and bernie did the same anything and democrats have been smart about that kind of

branding. on the other side, the mr. trump thing i find very odd. i find it a weird way of referring to him. >> mr. trump. >> he's comfortable with that. >> ted cruz is not brandable. >> tip of the hat. john. why do we call the democrats by their casual first names and the republicans by their important sur nape. >> my gosh. i think it actually has something to do with the -- >> class distinction. >> i do and i think it has something to do with a resonance, something that is still real within the democratic party that you're supposed to actually kind of be one of the people whereas with all due respect in a race with donald trump in it, that is not one of the people sort of thing. >> yeah. but -- [ all talking at once ] >> nobody ever calls him ted. >> it's an affecttation. >> he's cruz. cruz is a cool name. >> what about --

>> troosthat's true. >> jeb bush wasn't jeb bush, he was jeb. >> and marco rubio was marco. >> lyin' ted or little marco but jeb did brand himself. >> little marco, that seems like nine years ago. >> hasn't this lasted nine years. >> he did get 1% of the vote. >> what's the chance of hillary clinton being president, 1 in 5. >> 5. >> 5. >> 4. >> 2. >> i'm a reporter not a -- >> what are the chances of ted cruz being president, you're first. >> 2. >> go ahead. >> former communications director, go ahead. >> 1 in 5, maybe less. >> 1 or less. >> i think that the next president of the united states might welcome ted cruz up to the white house for -- >> 0. >> what about donald trump, what are his chances right now? >> 1 in 5 so 1 in 10.

>> to be president of the united states. >> win the whole thing. >> a little under 1. >> oh, i think he's got a better chance. >> 2? >> i think he's got -- 2 1/2. >> funny, i would have said 2 to 3 three or four weeks ago and i think -- 1 -- i think he has shown an inability to do the kinds of things that i think he would have to do -- >> is he joking? >> he's not joking. i think he is who he is. >> rick, 1 to 2. >> heidi, you can't say. okay. we didn't get to bernie. howie jackson, rick tile lir, chris hayes, joy reid and jacques nichols. what a group. i want to stay here all night. our coverage will continue after this. it will.

at the top of another hour it's time to look at what is quickly becoming and has been all night a sizable ted cruz victory in wisconsin. now, politics being politics, they've already been some people saying, no, no, no, it's a trump loss in wisconsin, not a cruz victory. that checkmark says projected winners so we'll go with that. ted cruz 50% over 33% with that percentage in and bernie sanders and enjoying a victory in wisconsin. we have just heard from him