well, i'm chris matthews in milwaukee, wisconsin, where voters tonight give a nasty swipe at donald trump and also delivered a wicked wake-up call to hillary clinton. trump was walloped on the republican side by about 20 points with clinton also taking a double-digit defeat ripping open at least for the next two weeks their separate claims to their party's presidential nomination so here's where things stand at this hour tonight. bernie sanders is the projected winner on the democratic side and he leads clinton, secretary clinton by 12 points. the gap is even wider on the republican side, as i said, ted cruz was backed by nearly every major establishment figure in the state, earned nearly 50% of the vote tonight. cruz told his supporters earlier tonight that the race was fundamentally or has fundamentally shifted. here he is. >> tonight is a turning point.

it is a rallying cry. it is a call from the hard-working men and women of wisconsin to the people of america. we have a choice. a real choice. as a result of the people of wisconsin defying the media, defying the pundits, i am more and more convinced that our campaign is going to earn the 1,237 delegates needed to win the republican nomination. [ cheers and applause ] >> well, we'll see. anyway, donald trump's camp responded with a scathing statement. the press secretary wrote -- "donald j. trump withstood the onslaught of the establishment yet again, lyin' ted cruz had the governor of wisconsin, many conservative talk radio show hosts and the entire party apparatus behind him. not only was he propelled by the anti-trump super pacs spending countless millions of dollars on false advertising against mr. trump, but he was coordinating with his own super

pacs, which is illegal, who totally control him. ted cruz is worse than a puppet. he is a trojan horse being used by the party bosses attempting to steal the nomination from mr. trump. anyway for his part, senator sanders says his campaign has momentum. " anyway for his part, senator sanders says his campaign has momentum. >> with our victory tonight in wisconsin, we have now won seven out of eight of the last caucuses. [ cheers and applause ] and we have won almost all of them with overwhelming landslide numbers. [ cheers and applause ] >> well, hillary clinton congratulated sanders by twitter, and the question tonight, where do these candidates go from here? and on the republican side has

wisconsin given a playbook to the stop trump movement that other states can follow to deny the billionaire a path to the 1,237 delegates he needs to clinch this thing? are we headed to an open convention in cleveland? that's an interesting question. let's bring in our roundtable. chris jansing to my right, jacob soboroff to his right. joy reid to his left and john nichols to the left of everybody here among the rest. i do think i want to ask you something. i was going to ask which makes life interesting, life signs. are the american voters, the people that decide elections, 20% in the middle and every fight, are they awake, alive and saying something right now we hadn't heard before? what's the voice of wisconsin for the country tonight? >> look, i think what wisconsin said in its loudest voices is it wants both these contests to go on and i think people will look for, you know, some sort of endorsement of a particular individual. certainly sanders is very popular on the democratic side

and he did very well, but i'd be careful on the republican side thinking this was a big endorsement for ted cruz. the fact of the matter is wisconsin has perhaps the most developed out conservative infrastructure in the united states, and that infrastructure lined up behind the candidate they decided to put in the empty suit. it happened to be ted cruz, but i don't think for a second that that same infrastructure exists in many other states. most other states have had not have three gubernatorial elections in the last five years. >> joy reid? >> no -- >> are we alive? are we thinking? >> well, i think that wisconsin showed how trump can be defeated, and it really is by appealing to not just evangelicals but white evangelicals or frequent churchgoers, they are the most dead set against donald trump and you saw the same thing in utah with mormons against him but john is right. the infrastructure is unique. you had the entire gamut of right wing talk radio which is hugely influential with average voters dead set against donald trump and you had this sort of

armada of the republican -- of what there is of the conservative movement all aligned against him and you won't have that in new york. you're not going to have that in pennsylvania. >> what happened to the armada? >> i don't know that you can keep this anywhere else. >> what happened to the armada historically? >> it went national. >> no, the real armada. >> had a little trouble. >> wiped out. >> it did well for awhile. >> yeah, i mean like -- >> okay, what's the wild -- give me what you hear in the atmosphere right now , the zeitgeist of the public tonight. wisconsin is damn important. it always has been. >> what john said, this appetite for the campaign to continue. >> yeah. >> voters -- if there's one thing -- i remember back in 2004 of following that on the democratic side. it was all this sort of desperate who are we going to get against bush, desperate, desperate, can we fund a general. wesley clark. no, no, no, and howard dean had that moment and as soon as john kerry won iowa and won new hampshire, boom, let's done it. everyone fell in line.

now, 2012, mitt romney, if you look at his average performance over time, you see a line that goes up like this. what that is is the party falling in line and saying, this is our guy. let's do it. that is not happening on either side right now and it is remarkable. >> no -- >> there is no consolidation. we have not -- i was expecting to see more on the democratic side. i have not seen it. it is certainly -- you're not seeing anything like that. on the republican side you're seeing this historical effort to block this single candidate that people identify as an existential threat to a party that's been around for 150 years, so the contest rolls on. >> are people thinking about the there's no consolidatioconsolide is falling in line even though it's april. >> are people thinking about the future of america. what they look like, the best encapsulation was my trip to rippon, wisconsin, the home, birthplace of the republican party 1854, democrats, whigs, free stores and got together in this white schoolhouse and founded the party on the idea of

unity and ending slavery. >> ending the expansion of slavery. >> ending the expansion of slavery, thank you. and talk to them about what the republican party today. >> so the republican party is still trying to figure out what it is. >> just throw in on that, you know, who is really popular in rippon in 2008? >> no. >> barack obama. the fact of the matter is, i don't think rippon has changed. i think it was a progressive party. >> you guys clean up here. this failure to jell. the pudding is not jelling. the jell-o is not jelling. it's not happening. we're not picking a president yet. >> people are liking these conversations. i have been -- so this weekend on friday night i went to the fish fry, which is the republicans. saturday night i went to the democratic dinner, and i sat down and talked to so many people. i can't tell you the number of groups of friends, of neighbors, husbands and wives, girlfriends and boyfriends who are on separate -- have separate ideas about who should, and they -- i said, this must cause some really difficult times in your household. well, yeah, but we like having this conversation.

i have never seen in any of the campaigns that i have covered a deeper electorate. people are really getting into this. they don't want to let it go. they want to hear what people have to say. i kept looking for tanking on the numbers on the debates. i thought aren't people sick of them yet? they weren't, were they? people kept watching the town halls. people keep watching the town halls. they're engaged and they want to stay engaged and care about making the right decision. >> one of the great things, i got to say this, i grew up in the bronx. and the way the electoral college system works every year there are in ten states, they get all the candidates' time and usually the primary calendar is front-loaded enough it doesn't go deep enough. i'm watching 17,000 people to go to the bronx to see mary's park in the south bronx where 17,000 people will go to watch a person running for president of the united states. no one ever does it. the apollo theatre, the bronx, statten island, howard beach -- >> we're going to have a new york primary. >> no one ever does that. no one campaigns in the bronx.

>> let me bring in from new york from "the washington post" robert costa. there is no jelling going on here. this isn't happening. it isn't moving towards closure. people are enjoying the ongoing reality of getting to decide, unfortunately, they're only down to two or three candidates, well, probably two in each party now. >> it was a tough night for john kasich. this was a rust belt state, a state that he thought he would have done better. we haven't seen the republican party rally to cruz. the movement, right. the activists, the tea party, the ideological conservatives, they got a horse now on cruz but it's a long two weeks between now and new york and trump will have 10,000 people, long island tomorrow, big rally. it's going to be a big question. can he bounce back, can he pivot as we say to being presidential. the thing he's always resisted doing. >> why doesn't he do it? >> he just keeps talking about the fight. bob woodward and i sat down with him and he kept said, i'm not

going to reach out really to the party. i'm not going to act presidential, change his behavior but he's under pressure now. it's more and more looking like a contested convention. i spoke to people very close to trump tonight. i said where is he tonight? what's he doing? they say he's in trump tower with his family watching the returns and helped type out his statement, hard-hitting statement against cruz, and it's about turning the corner to now tomorrow in new york to see if he can look ahead but they're already talking about california too. chris, they're saying this thing is probably going to go to june for sure, and they're going to be there later this week and go to his golf course there and have a news conference, try to get back his swagger. >> but, you know, chris -- >> let me finish up with robert. i want to ask about this 1,237. when i was talking to him last week, he still is talking about maybe getting a gimme, a couple hundred delegates. he doesn't have to get to 1,237, a golf line, a gimme. does he still expect to get a gimme or does he know he has to get to 1,237 or he's cooked. >> he thinks he can get a gimme and sticking with golf, chris,

he thinks, look, there's not a pure cutoff mark, a certain score he needs to meet. he thinks if he gets close enough, if he shoots 77 instead of 76 in golf terms in terms of the delegates, he can get there that he's going to make the point and you hear this from his statement tonight, if he's close enough, if he's near 1,237, 50 delegates away, 100 away, that this thing was stolen from him. steal the line from the statement that stood out to me, he's already starting to make the case if he doesn't get to 1,237 that it's stolen from him. that's going to be a case he can make going to the convention floor. >> yeah, let me go back to joy. if trump makes that case, who does he make it to? we were screwed or some other brooklyn thing, it was stolen from us. what good does that do? if he doesn't get the nomination and somebody else does, does he run third party or does he just stew? >> i mean i think in both of the parties what you have is this amorphous thing called the establishment and you have particularly white working class voters and i think if there was a petri dish for the anxieties

of white working class voters, in particular, this would be it. this is a predominantly white working state and seeing the anxieties of that particular group of voters play out among the republicans and democrats, the most liberal democrats and most conservative republicans. if he is denied it, i think you'll sigh an explosion. this amorphous thing that's wrong and even by the bases of these two parties. >> what happens if -- >> sorry? >> what happens if he gets the nomination. disaster. >> if he gets the domination -- >> the hard right walks out and the same kind of crap going on. >> the establishment will focus down ticket and try to save the house and senate and don't see any appetite. >> you opened it up. what's more divisive, a republican party that gets stuck with trump, even though three-quarters of america don't like him or dumped him in favor of cruz or ryan. what's more crazy? >> they should dump him.

>> what would be more crazy? >> they're not going to win either way. >> much more crazy. look, this is a political party that as pointed out a couple of minutes ago that was founded more than 150 years ago. there is a reality to it and at certain points in the history of the republican party, it is just said we're on the wrong track. in 1940 this party was headed towards nominating an isolationist on the eve of world war ii. and no, let's just get rid of all these guys and take wendell wilkie. i'm not saying we're in the same kind of moment, but what i am saying is sometimes a party to become adult and its leaders have to say, we're going to take the attacks, we're going to take the criticism but pushing this stuff aside because it doesn't work. >> they weren't going to run as an anti-war party either. they did it again in '52 with ike. >> that's exactly right. >> by the way, america first which is -- donald trump. he's been using it recently. >> he doesn't know, does he? >> no way. >> didn't know mussolini either,

but, look, i don't say this casually. at a certain point this party has to become an adult party. >> i think you're speaking normatively. it's going to happen. >> no, i think think this -- if your interest is the incontinuity of it, you can't nominate trump. if in terms of what's the most -- so i think that -- what is the most divisive, not nominating trump. >> so the worst thing that happened to the republican party is nominating trump. no, you can't do that. you four. is nominating trump the worst thing? >> yeah. >> hands. >> it depends on what comes afterward. >> it becomes his party. >> you have to remember, argenteuil not all the voters all care primarily about the continuity of the party. marco rubio tries -- >> you said i think there is a democratic establishment. it's called the clintons. i really think -- anyway, back to robert costa, sir. last thought from you. does trump still think he's

going to win at the convention going in with 1,237? >> he does, and it's really a behind-the-scenes game right now with trump. i spoke today with ed brookover, the guy running his delegate operation. they're starting to reach out to all these unbound delegates th states like pennsylvania where you don't really need to be bound on the first ballot. they're bringing in paul manafort, a veteran, he's already gaming out california. this is a long game. trump is going to have a big new york stretch now for the next two weeks but his eye of the campaign and the cleveland -- the people behind him, it's on cleveland and the delegates because he has to build the relationships as well as the delegate number right now so if it goes to a second ballot, or a third ballot he has the political capital to sustain his candidacy. >> let's wait to see roger stern, paul manafort's partner come in too. we'll see. you'll be reporting something like that. we're coming right back. thank you, robert costa of "the washington post." we're coming back with more from milwaukee and wild conversations coming up here.

our live coverage continues after this.

i know a little bit about the office. i spent the first 18 years of my life in brooklyn, new york. please keep this a secret. [ laughter ] do not tell secretary clinton. she's getting a little nervous, and i don't want her to get more nervous, but i believe we've got an excellent chance to win new york and a lot of delegates in that state. >> i just love senator sanders. i don't want her to get more nervous. of course, he does. anyway, that was senator sanders coming off his huge victory out in wisconsin today. back with chris jansing, jacob soboroff, chris hayes, joy reid and john nichols. in an editorial board, sanders was pressed over many of his positions including on guns. here's the revenge.

"the daily news" asked this of sanders, the victims of the sandy hook massacre are looking to have the right to sue for damages, the manufacturers of those weapons. do you think that is something that should be expanded? quote, do i think the victims of a crime with a gun should be able to sue the manufacturer, is that your question? sanders replied, no, i don't. he said, okay, so look at "the daily news" cover now. it basically said, here's our verdict on you, senator. we don't like your answer. what did you make of that? let me start with chris. do you get a sense "the daily news" is with hillary on that. a hell of a shot. >> the front of the new york tabloid, you don't want to see that and they also asked him about this wall street stuff. this has been his big -- if there's one thing he has been on point with on message with -- >> don't you know what a political revolution is? >> he didn't know what could be done or how it could be done. >> so let's go to your end now and start right back across the room here. i have a suspicion that a lot -- they

say in washington the safest vote is the vote for something that doesn't pass because then you're never blamed. or to vote against something that does because you're never blamed. a lot of people i think vote strategically. they vote for bernie because they want to keep hillary on her toes and want to keep the campaign going, but they haven't decided to make bernie president by any means. the other theory bernie has some mo. hey, i'm going with bernie now. what is the impulse you saw in wisconsin today? was it because bernie looked like he might win it or can't win it and it's a safe vote. >> in wisconsin i talked to a lot of folks and went to a lot of these rallies and saw both of these candidates campaign and, frankly, they were both on the top of their game. hillary clinton gave one of the best speeches i ever heard her give on the supreme court a week ago and chris would back me up on this, a really powerful at the state democratic founder's day dinner so she was really on her game. sanders, as well, was giving by

far his best stump speeches. much more local and much more connected. bottom line, i think they had a real campaign here. i don't think people were voting casually for bernie sanders. in this state they like what they heard and voted for him but i will emphasize to you, that the feeling when i talk to people in wisconsin is, this is early in the process. they weren't thinking, you know, we're making -- >> november. >> they weren't also thinking they're making the final choice even on the democratic nomination. it was more as if this is a real fight and we love being a part of it. >> by the way, the old line of the left i grew up in the '60s was in d.c., november doesn't count. >> i don't think they were quite there, because, remember, wisconsin is a politically mature state. >> yeah. >> they had an election in 2010 where, you know, people were a little casual about it. they got scott walker. so these people do take politics seriously, but they've also become very hardened and very edgy in their politics, and the fact is sanders' message particularly that pro-labor message. >> yeah, but it's him. he's running for president on his message. >> joy, the same question to you.

bernie sanders will be 75 in september. okay. he's obviously a rugged guy. give speeches 40 hours a day, he's unbelievable. >> yeah. >> but this is an interesting concept. what's new in american life that says 75 is a good time to start the presidency. look how obama's aged and even george w. didn't feel like he felt the whole thing. >> you don't think 70 is the new 40? >> i don't think it is. i think it's the new 63 maybe. only people i heard raise that concern are older voters themselves. i guess they're feeling their own sort of age and feel it might not be possible for him to be a robust and vigorous president at that age. but i will tell you what i think we're in is an age where people's expectations, the floor has just been raised. we had the first african-american president and for particularly democrats they feel that the magnitude of change, the possibility of it is just greater, so i think you see in sanders supporters the desire for greater, even if it doesn't seem realistic. >> i'm wondering are they voting for him or the message or send a

message or think he can be commander in chief -- >> we'll find out in new york. it's a closed primary. >> i think -- i doenn't think it's that complicated. i think they like bernie's politics. >> would they like him to be commander in chief? >> i think most bernie sanders voters are not thinking in that sense. i mean even just saying commander in chief. right? commander in chief is s shorthappened we use when we talk about the president of the united states and arguably the way -- >> it's life or death. >> it's life or death. and the most important but i don't think most -- i don't think -- i don't think that's the terminology that most of bernie sanders supporters, particularly his hard-core supporters would use to refer to the president of the united states. i think the message he has -- i watched a bernie sanders ad the other day. it said -- it wasn't rocket science, break up the big banks, $15 minimum wage, free college tuition. >> universal health care. >> universal health care, i mean, basically this is a bunch of social democratic items and get money out of politics and break up the corrupt system. >> when i was in his field office just yesterday and i'm talking to these folks who have

left their jobs and are taking their money out of their savings and they're going from state to state to state. these are the true believers, right. these are the folks who are going door to door and making the phone calls and doing whatever is asked of them, and they're smart, and they'll say to me, look, i nknow there's not going to be free college tuition. i don't think that's going to happen. i have big college debts. i would like for it to happen. i have big college debts but i believe he'll move us in the right direction and i believe his message is pure and i believe when he says something and they don't believe that about hillary clinton. i believe when he says something there's no political agenda behind it. >> i said, that's good and i said, but you know how it works, you need 60 votes in the senate -- he said, the trouble with you -- i can't do the accent -- the trouble with you is you're from inside the beltway. he drew a big circle around me like i'm hopeless. i said in counterpart inside the beltway is where they pass the tax laws. you have to deal with that. i guess that's not romantic

enough. >> you asked about strategic voting and are people voting strategically for bernie to keep hillary on her toes? my friends people i talk to if anybody is voting strategically around bernie, it's actually even if they support bernie, they may vote for hillary because they don't want to risk it basically and that's -- >> to inspire us all here's senator sanders. he has -- the guy's got the mojo. here he is tonight. >> let me say a word, well, maybe two words, i don't know, about what momentum is all about. momentum is starting this campaign 11 months ago and the media determining that we were a fringe candidacy. momentum is starting the campaign 60 to 70 points behind secretary clinton. momentum is that within the last couple of weeks there have been

national polls which have had us one point up or one point down. [ cheers and applause ] momentum is that when you look at national polls or you look at statewide polls, we are defeating donald trump by very significant numbers. [ cheers and applause ] and in almost every instance in national polls and in state polls, our margin over trump is wider than is secretary clinton. [ cheers and applause ] >> these gestures are going to be codified someday. every instance momentum. larry david. >> let me say something about

this sense of sort of is this sort of sending a message or this sort of sense of the what's realistic. right. three years ago when i was first starting my show, we covered the fast food worker strikes and it was a completely fringe idea. completely fringe that there would be a $15 minimum wage. >> what was it then? what were they getting at burger king? >> they were getting $7.50. so the idea -- people said there would never be a $15 minimum wage. that's ridiculous. it would be double what the minimum wage is now. two of the three largest states in the union have passed $15 minimum wages three years later. now, if they had listen ed to the advice of people that said this is a preposterous ask and we're far from getting it they would -- they only got there because they insisted on something people said was impossible. so there's no reap for -- >> but what's the federal minimum wage going to be a year from now. it's not going to be 15 -- >> i'll give you an answer. if there wasn't anyone pushing 15, it would be lower than what it ends up being. the point is when you talk about free college tuition,

legislation is a negotiating process, right, but opening asks anchoring -- >> who else is doing it besides bernie? donald trump. donald trump. nobody is going to believe there is a wall. they don't think the mexican had of government is going to pay for the wall. they think at least this guy gets serious about illegal immigration. what else could it mean? people aren't crazy. >> yeah. >> remember, what -- >> think about what sanders' slogan is, a future you can believe in. now, trump is the exact opposite of that. make america great again. so trump is saying, you know, let's go back someplace because we don't like where we're at. sanders says, i think especially, and that's right, 81% of under 30 vote, sanders says we're going to go someplace. we know that it might as well be good rather than bad, you know. >> wait, but i think -- >> never able to -- no record of getting anything done in the senate. i don't want to squash the dream here. but it hasn't happened and we'll be right back in milwaukee with

joy reid. our coverage continues from wisconsin primary. we got the results. >> stay there, america.

either before cleveland or at the convention in cleveland, together we will win a majority

of the delegates, and together we will beat hillary clinton in november. >> well, you liked our continuing coverage of the wisconsin primary. we're live from milwaukee, the lakefront brewery and here with chris hayes, jacob soboroff, joy reid, and, chris, i hear you're leaving us. going back to new york. what was your favorite moment here? >> oh, that's a very good question. >> did anybody say anything nice to you? >> here sitting all together. >> this is the best moment. >> just all of us to be here together. "kumbaya" to you. >> this is getting really nice. >> campfire. >> you know what i loved honestly, i was at two polling places in these heavy republican districts and one had turnout of 61%, one had turnout of 56%. i think the enthusiasm people getting out to vote is an extraordinary thing. i think them getting engaged in the process is extraordinary and going into the field office and seeing people working, it was an icy -- people were coming in and going out and knocking on doors and i thought, man, democracy is

a really impressive thing. >> this is wanted our network to >> this is what i really wanted our network to do. >> this is wanted our network to do. i want to show the presses. i want to show not just the results because there's so many hours -- you guys, you guys especially know how to walk backwards. you can't talk backwards. how did you learn the ginger rogers technique, walk back through endless hallways, chris, i don't know how many corners you turned but every time -- >> it went all the way around. it was like -- >> yeah. >> i don't think the marquette folks are so happy, the ink they were getting is that -- >> the jesuit school, give them a shot. >> particularly with the voter i.d. stuff going on. the amount of hurdles that people had to go through, at madison, you know -- >> explain that. how many steps where -- >> it was basically like -- i said earlier it's like getting

your license and registration when you get pulled over by a police officer. you have to pull your proof of enrollment at the university -- >> which you had to access through a special system, print it out on a bar kind like going to the airport and still over 1,000 people, almost 2,000 people, sort of the biggest polling place i saw at the night, happened in multiple places showed up to vote. people wanted to come out despite the hurdles. >> like getting on el al. they interrogate you to get on the plane. >> take everything out of your suitcase. >> where was your bar mitzvah? >> my favorite moment of the day was up in green bay. they had very long lines in green bay, and people were waiting up to two hours, and there were some sanders young folks who were toward the front of the line, and some cruz backers showed up and said, you know, we just have a very short time of time, we're on a break from work, and the sanders backers let the cruz backers get in front of them in line, and i thought to myself -- >> screw trump? >> yeah, maybe. >> no, chris, i felt --

i felt wisconsin was illustrating socialism. >> but you know what, i hope not to be a downer, but i do hope that we'll go back and unpack what the real world impact was. i think that the long lines and the stick-to-itiveness of people when they have to stand in them can really make you think that perhaps voter i.d. and voter suppression isn't quite so bad, but the actual suppressive effect it has on voters and, by the way, there was one outcome that perhaps the progressives were not so cheery which is you did have a tightening of the conservative grip on the state supreme court. it's going to come out of tonight. >> isn't it awful -- >> the next ten years and one of the people who said the most extreme things i think i've ever heard a public official say, she will be spending a decade -- >> isn't it amazing how much we're learning? superdelegates -- >> unbound. >> indeed. >> and gone to caucuses which everybody doesn't vote.

so many -- of course, the electoral college. we got to get -- >> the process -- every time i'm in a room with a camera showing something, i think to myself well, this is good television but bad democracy. you know, it's great that we have caucuses and we can show the room and showing the lines, the factor of the matter is there should be nothing to show and you don't show people doing things easily. >> can i amplify? those long lines were a result of the fact that the state of wisconsin under governor scott walker tightened up early voting. they took away weekend voting and night voting. >> i wonder why they did that. i've been watching it. if you're in a demographic bind an in aren't as many white people as there used to be, make it harder to vote. thank you, chris jansing. >> yes. >> who doesn't express opinions and jacob soboroff who invented the back-walk. walking backwards. >> michael jackson actually did. >> patent pending. >> the rest of the roundtable sticking with us. much more from milwaukee right after this.

welcome back to our special election coverage of the wisconsin primary that was done we are live from milwaukee still. showed big results today. ted cruz is the projected winner tonight in the badger state with 93% of the vote in now. cruz up by 14 over trump. 14-point spread. 49-35. bernie sanders the projected winner, the hillary side by 13 beating hillary by 13. joining us with our roundtable in milwaukee is howie jackson who covers the cruz campaign by the minute along with former cruz campaign communications director rick tyler. everybody else will zone in on >> we're in the hot seat. you two. i am a suburban -- in the actual city but i lived in washington for the last 47 years and i am a city guy. i don't get the cruz thing.

i don't get him but let's not talk about him personally. what he looks like. how he comes across but his movement. rick, you were in the belly of the beast. who was he with that seems to be thrilled with this guy? they're not just voting against trump but voting for cruz. explain. >> there are a millions of americans who feel they're getting hammered and that their government is too overbearing and they passed things like obamacare and passed things that they're -- they're not anti-government, they just want government to work within its means, within its constitutional bounds and a lot of people feel like they're restricting our gun rights and forcing us to buy health care and forcing us -- drive up prices and have all these regular issues and common core, just the government is just in our lives and these people don't want government -- they just want to be left alone. >> specifically when you talk about cruz, though, because that i think would apply to a lot of folks who are sort of leaders in the conservative movement. for cruz when you go to the events and talk to people supporting him over and over you hear a couple of things. you hear, number, one the constitution. ted cruz is a discipline candidate and has been pushing the message --

>> ten commandments. >> -- for months, for a year since he launched his campaign in march. the other thing you hear, messaging from ted cruz he has been pushing for a long time, he will do what he says he's going to do. people echo that. it's wild. almost word for word when you talk to them about why they are supporting him. you hear talk about the supreme court and some of the other issues that people, you know, are hearing ted cruz talk about after justice scalia died, you would be amazed how many brought that up at town halls because it was part of his message. >> the republican party, the conservatives felt like, look, we gave them the majority in the house and gave them the majority in the senate and felt we were better off with harry reid and nancy pelosi and didn't get anything. >> cruz can bring together people -- i'm confounded by this. i look at all that happened since the early '60s. it used to be you went to school in a rural area. prayer and school. king james bible. somebody read from it and we felt like protestants all together. we're all happy. no -- everybody is same. you want that back? >> the what --

>> prayer in school. do you want prayer in school back? >> i think that's fine. how is that going to hurt anybody? >> organized prayer. do you want organized prayer -- >> i don't think the state should be -- that's covered in -- >> how many of the old-time religion do you really want? no gay marriages? >> no, it's not anti-gay. i think -- it is that -- >> well, cruz doesn't believe in -- >> it's the other way around. people respect christian values and believe that marriage between one man and one woman -- but they're saying, no, they can't believe it. >> the cruz campaign, i just want to be clear on the policy here, the cruz campaign does not believe in -- believes that supreme court decision was wrongly decided and would -- >> it should be the states. it's not in the constitution. that marriage is not in the constitution. >> point being they think it's wrong -- >> yeah. >> that is -- >> yeah, they oppose it. >> talk about values. you talk about growing up in the city. you know, philly, let's talk about new york values -- because that is something -- >> that's been talked about.

>> yeah, i'm sorry. >> what does that mean by the way to those people? >> every new yorker knows exactly what it means. >> that's the line ted cruz will use when he's in the bronx tomorrow and talking about this. >> what's that, talks loud? is that new york values? >> just go upstate. you'll find out. >> but i grew up in a town of about a thousand people, and i didn't know what new york values was. i don't have that -- i don't have that anti-new york thing that some -- >> it probably means something like what they used to call san francisco values. cultural -- i mean it probably does. >> gene kirkpatrick said san francisco democrat meant gay. >> and people they feel are less moral. in terms of what the cruz campaign says is return to constitutionality is what was missing with barack obama and the fact that a lot of these is a convulsion and reaction to the obama presidency. i was on -- sitting on a radio show and taking calls from conservatives, a lot of cruz supporters and a lot of what they would say is

obama has destroyed the constitution. he's taken the presidency outside the realm of constitutionality. they didn't name specific things he's done but in their minds, he has destroyed the second amendment and destroyed the boundaries that the presidency was written to be in by the founders and that is a part of it. >> destroyed the second amendment. i think the nra and republicans have -- and a lot of pro-democrats have as well. obama would have been going further and because of newtown and wasn't able to. >> let me ask you this question. kasich needs 111% of the delegates to win. now, i'm going -- i don't make a lot of predictions. i predict he won't get there. now, cruz has been -- cruz had this line of kasich basically of saying kasich should drop out because of it. mathematically impossible. cruz is going to get to needing more than 100% pretty soon. probably might be after new york. might be around there. when he gets to a point where he

can't get 100%, he's going to stay in the race, right? >> let's talk about when he does. i'm not sure he will. >> right now i believe cruz and trump will arrive at the convention. neither which will have a majority. >> right, but i'm saying mathematically there is going to be a point before that, before the convention where cruz in order to get 1,237 would have to win more than 100% available delegates a la the way john kasich does now and if the argument kasich should drop out because he can't do it, then why wouldn't that apply to cruz? >> it's a fair question to ask. i think what you're going to see -- >> i would have to do all the math. >> getting to where i don't like to go. >> same numbers. i think it's going to be a great state. when trump gets to the convention, say he's got -- we don't even know what the gimme is. 100 shy, 50 shy, 200 shy and tries to beg marco rubio for his box of marbles and goes to kasich, can i have your box of marbles because all i need is 50

and, by the way, the offer is good at that point. i'm going to be the nominee, i can give you anything you want. post office job for your kid. i might give you something. >> i have to give away. [ all talking at once ] >> abraham lincoln. >> you got to think more of the republican side. it's got to be a little bigger than the post office job. >> i was just thinking, there's a lot of goodies to give away. that's why it's close on the hill the president always win. because the president can always be -- we'll be back. talk about buying this -- it was a big primary tonight. back after this.

we're back with some big thoughts tonight following the big wins in wisconsin tonight. let me ask you about a serious question, joy reid, my friend. why is it that we refer to the two republican keys by their surnames, cruz and trump, and we inevitably relentlessly refer to the democratic candidates by bernie and hillary. answer, please. >> i think because of branding. i think hillary brand ed herself many years ago when she dropped it from hillary rodham clinton to hillary clinton to then just hillary and it started actually when she ran for the united states senate in 2000 and she rebranded herself as a one-word name like madonna and like sting and bernie did the same thing and democrats have been smart about that kind of branding. on the other side, the mr. trump thing i find very odd.

i find it a weird way of referring to him. >> mr. trump. >> he's comfortable with that. >> i think ted cruz is not brandable. >> tip of the hat. john. why do we call the democrats by their casual first names and the republicans by their important surnames? >> my gosh. well, i think it actually has something to do with the -- >> class distinction? >> yeah, i do, and i think it has something to do with a resonance, something that is still real within the democratic party that you're supposed to actually kind of be one of the people, whereas, with all due respect in a race with donald trump in it, that is not one of the people sort of thing. >> yeah, but your -- [ all talking at once ] >> nobody ever calls him ted. >> no, he's not ted. >> it's an affecttation. >> he's not ted. he's cruz. cruz is a cool name. >> what about -- >> that's true. >> spoken like a true communications -- >> jeb bush wasn't jeb bush, he was jeb. and marco rubio was marco.

>> he was always marco, that's true. >> wanting to belittle one of his opponents he would call them by their first name. he would be lyin' ted or little marco but jeb did brand himself. >> little marco, that seems like nine years ago. >> hasn't this lasted nine years? >> he did get 1% of the vote. >> what's the chance of hillary clinton being president, 1 in 5? >> 5. >> 5. >> 4. >> 2. >> i'm a reporter, not a -- >> let me go right back. what are the chances of ted cruz being president? you're first. >> 2. >> go ahead. former communications director, go ahead. >> 1 in 5, maybe less. >> 1 or less. >> i think that the next president of the united states might welcome ted cruz up to the white house for -- >> that's a 0. what about donald trump, what are his chances right now? 1 in 5, 1 in 10, where are we at? >> to be president of the united states? >> win the whole thing. >> a little under 1.

>> oh, i think he's got a better chance. >> 2? >> i think he's got -- 2 1/2. >> you know, it's funny. i would have said 2 to 3 three or four weeks ago, and i think 1 -- i think he has shown an inability to do the kinds of things that i think he would have to do -- >> is he joking? >> he's not joking. i just think he is who he is. >> what do you think, rick? >> he's right, 1 to 2. >> heidi, you can't say. okay. we didn't get to bernie. howie jackson, rick tyler, chris hayes, joy reid and john nichols. what a group. i want to stay here all night. our coverage of the wisconsin primary will continue after this. it will.

♪ at the top of another hour it's time to look at what is quickly becoming and has been all night a sizable ted cruz victory in wisconsin. now, politics being politics, they've already been some people saying, no, no, no, it's a trump loss in wisconsin, not a cruz victory. that check mark says projected winner so we'll go with that. ted cruz, 50% over 33% for trump with that percentage in and bernie sanders and enjoying a victory in wisconsin. we have just heard from him in