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[ crowd chanting "bernie" ] >> we won in wisconsin! [ cheers and applause ] with our victory tonight in wisconsin, we have now won seven out of eight of the last caucuses and primaries [ cheers and applause ] god bless the great state of wisconsin. [ cheers and applause ] as a result of the people of wisconsin defying the media, defying the pundits, i am more and more convinced that our campaign is going to earn the 1237 delegates needed to win the republican nomination. >> we get an "oh jesus" out of heilman there, defying the media? he didn't defy the media? >> i just can't take the oratory. >> defying the media? that's like marco rubio saying "nobody said this would happen." everybody said you were going to

be in the third place. the media was behind him. that's a fascinating night last night. >> the fight for the nomination in both parties will go on. wisconsin has spoken. last night, ted cruz scored a must-win victory, comfortably beating donald trump 48% to 35%. governor john kasich won 14%, but as of this moment came in third in every county. we need to talk about that. >> we do. >> but trump performed well in the northern and western parts of the state and ended the night with three delegates. cruz has taken home 33 so far. six are yet to be decided. on the democratic side, bernie sanders extended his winning streak to six with a 14-point victory in wisconsin over hillary clinton. >> so bernie's won six out of seven? >> uh-huh. >> but he barely made a dent in the delegate race. >> that's right, picking up 46 delegates to clinton's 43. senator sanders still trails by

670 delegates as the democratic race moves to saturday's caucuses in wisconsin and new york's primary 10 days after that and huillary clinton will e our guest this morning on "morning joe." that should be interesting. with us on set, we have john heilemann and mark halperin. in washington, senior political editor and white house correspondent for the huffington post, sam stein who was up way too earl will think mowill thin. >> willie geist, your family in wisconsin. >> he doesn't talk about that. >> if you saw him asked ask the question who buys two minivans? the guy with two families. so your wisconsin people, i don't know if they surprised us or not but it was an identical story on both sides where you had both front-runners losing by 13 points and then the question being is it going to have an impact at all or not? still, what a big night for the underdogs. >> the public polling was underestimating what ted cruz

was going to do last night. it had it at about 10 points, he won by 13 points. this becomes the story of delegate math. we're looking at the convention and unless donald trump can pull something huge in these states coming up, because even the rosiest projections of the northeast and california get him a little under 1237. that doesn't count those unbound delegates. this could come down to the negotiation and the convincing and the swaying of unbound delegates to become the nominee of the party. >> mark halperin, going to be christmas in july talk about last night before we jump ahead. any big surprises? >> no, these are two weak front-runners, neither of whom went into wisconsin in a strong position and both of whom come out able to win the nominations. the heavy favorite still by -- >> both of them still haeavy favorites. >> they'll have to fight. in new york trump is in a much stronger position than hillary clinton but beyond new york it's going to be a real fight for

trump because even people who support him now say he is much better off going to the con swrengs the majority. if he doesn't have the majority, all bets are all for him and i think the party now is convinced -- they have their mo mojo, they have their confidence they can deploy resources to stop him from getting the majority. >> i have said if he doesn't get to 1237 he might as well go home. actually, it does matter, let's say he's 100 short. that will be easier for them to twist arms and make deal, possibly get over the threshold. no doubt last night he would have preferred to do much better and the 13 point margin now, certainly all of his critics -- and there are a zillion of them -- are saying wisconsin will be a drag on new york state. we won't know that for a week. >> being 100 short is misleading. because a lot of people bound to vote for trump on the first ballot, they're ghost delegates, they're not for trump. they'll be bound to vote for him. but they will figure out a way -- if they can keep him

short, he won't be a hundred short, he'll be well more than a hundred short. everyone he gains for negotiation, he'll lose some also. >> willie and i working on a sci-fi thriller right now "the ghost delegate." >> a lot of violence. >> gratuitous nudity? >> of course! willie and i are writing. >> it keanu reeves already attached? >> he is. >> love the script. >> at this point i don't think trump is the heavy favorite to win the nomination at all. the most likely outcome is a contested convention. in that scenario i have no idea who the favorite is. >> what's the percentage up to now? >> 56%. >> how likely is that going into new york, new jersey, et cetera, et cetera? connecticut? >> the unresolved question we talked to on the air is how

strong will john kasich be in rhode island, connecticut, maryland. >> and ted cruz. we have a sense of cruz's strength now. cruz is fighting -- you could argue that that -- >> can i answer a john kasich question as a guy who loves john kasich and sports john kasich? if the guy isn't strong in his neighboring state, he's not going to be strong in the northeast. >> again, it's not clear that that's true in the sense that i don't think you will have in these other states the concerted effort of the republican establishment and conservative talk radio all siding with ted cruz and making a strategic decision to try to keep john kasich down. i don't know what will happen. will john kasich get 30% or get 15% in connecticut, rhode island, maryland, and pennsylvania? >> here why i think trump is the heavy favorite. kasich has not performed well anywhere. we all like him, we think he's not doing as well as he should be doing but he may not catch on in the northeast any more than

he did in wisconsin. >> he's not going to. >> and cruz, there's no reason to think he's a great northeastern and can diet is trump could spend the next month winning a lot. >> they also don't like him. i think the establishment and stop trump forces are shooting themselves in the foot because they're so blindly focused their hatred on trump to the point where they can't see that what they're going get is cruz and he actually will not pivot, he actually will be ted cruz, someone who is resoundly hated in washington and has done damage when he spent time there and i think they're misreading trump who may not be the best candidate for the republican party in their eyes but i bet has the ability to pivot on issues ten times more than ted cruz, whether you like him or not. >> i think stop trump movement will take the opposite lesson from wisconsin. >> and it will become fire. >> say "look what we did." charlie sykes stopped trump -- >> and got ted cruz who will lose to hillary. >> he's trying to pivot. when we talked to charlie sykes

remember what he said? he said ted cruz isn't my first, second, third or fourth choice. >> then you probably shouldn't choose him. >> but he's acceptable enough. >> he's not! hey, he's fine with me. >> let's be clear, ted cruz will never be the nominee of the republican party. >> if he is, good for me. >> you don't have to say. that ted cruz will never get the nomination. >> you don't think he's more likely? who's more likely than ted cruz? >> paul ryan. right now the guy is loathed and he is loathed inside d.c. in a way this trump is not loathed. i mean, i know a lot of the establishment hates donald trump but ted cruz is the devil they know and they don't like him. he won't win the nomination. right now he's a vehicle to stop donald trump. >> and a very poor one. >> so it will be donald trump or somebody else. he is not -- i don't know, maybe ted cruz is the most wonderful

person in the world when he's throwing baseballs with his neighborhoods and barbecuing but he is not on tv a likable guy. >> and he hasn't performed in a likable way in washington, i.e., shut it down. >> he's not going to do it so it's going to be donald trump or somebody else. >> i think it's true the stop trump forces, the never trump forces, that is how they see it. they don't believe that they are on ted cruz's side. what they are, again, they're trying to get to a contested convention and they're either secretly for kasich or rubio or paul ryan or mitt romney, they're for somebody else. again, squawk is the best. to me the clearest example of this. the guy who a week before he endorsed ted cruz, he said "we'll have a contested convention and it will be someone who's not ted cruz but i'll back ted cruz for now." >> they can't stand him so it will be trump or somebody else.

but last night something really remarkable happened in wisconsin and i was just talking to bill kristol offset about it. i don't know that i've ever seen it happen before. people are always saying "well, you know, maybe voters will go in and make a statement. maybe voters will go --" that never happens. it's bull. people go in and they vote their heart, very rarely their head. wisconsin last night did something i've never seen before. you had suburban people who loathed ted cruz. >> voting for him. >> disconnected from him ideologically, disconnected from his socially, temperamentally, just like charlie sykes, they went in and it's extraordinary, they made the calculation we're not going to vote for john kasich, we're going to vote for guy who's most like to stop donald trump. it never happens. it happened last night in wisconsin. it's extraordinary. >> to that point, gop turnout

easily broke the record set 36 years ago in 1980 with nearly 1.1 million people participating. >> but i thought there was voter suppression, i sure heard stories yesterday about voter suppression and these voter i.d. laws. like i -- >> imagine how big turnout would have been without those. >> where people not thrown in jail, willie? i thought they got water hoses out yesterday. >> not last night, no. >> that was in the media. >> in the media all day yesterday all i heard were breathless stories after breathless stories. >> it was a little bit overplayed. but the nbc news exit poll found far fewer wisconsin republican voters angry at washington, just 32% compared to nearly double that in nevada. among the key groups behind cruz's victory were those most concerned about winning in november who went for cruz 68% to 19% for trump along with those who preferred a candidate with experience in politics, 68% to 8% for trump.

cruz also won with those who said trade creates u.s. jobs and voters with incomes of over $100,000. last night, a triumphant cruz announced his campaign brought in $2 million tuesday alone and said he is convinced he will earn enough delegates to security the nomination. >> tonight is a turning point. it's a rallying cry, it's a call from the hardworking men and women of wisconsin to the people of america, we have a choice. a real choice. i am more and more convinced that our campaign is going to tern 1237 delegates needed to win the republican nomination. [ cheers and applause ] either before cleveland or at the convention in cleveland, together we will win a majority of the delegates and together we will beat hillary clinton in november. [ cheers and applause ] >> i wonder, mika, how do you

think he asks for macaroni and cheese? >> he goes "honey. honey. can i please have -- the macaroni and cheese?" >> you know, winston churchill said that the soviet union was a riddle wrapped in an enigma wrapped in a mystery. macaroni and cheese. much like that. dear. can you pass it to me? maybe, willie? >> you're the love of my life, heidi. >> there's an element of theater to his performance. [ laughter ] >> it's painful. >> we were talking about that yesterday. i wonder how necessary private. two other notes real quick on ted cruz yesterday in wisconsin. he won among non-college educated voters, where donald trump has cleaned up. cruz won those by double digits so all these numbers, is this a story about wisconsin or the race going forward. we'll find out. we have to wait two weeks but we'll see if things change in the northeast. >> the numbers, though, shocking numbers about are you mad at

washington? you ask that question in alabama or mississippi, the nunl bers are way up there, wisconsin, not really. do you want experience or change? the south? wisconsin, you know, change is okay, but i think i like experience. >> i'm surprised hillary clinton didn't win. >> they are prototypical midwesterners. i understood all along trump was going to do well in new hampshire, in south carolina, in the deep south. i tell you what, you get in wisconsin or minnesota, that's a blind spot for me, i think rubio would have done really -- we said rubio didn't have a state where he could have won, he w. f >> this man you mock -- >> who do i mock? >> ted cruz.

he's won more delegates than rick perry -- >> he wants to have him on his show. >> my show is on hiatus. i'm just telling you, he's got a sophisticated delegate operation, he has a lot of money and i'm telling you also it's going to be hard to convince paul ryan or anyone else to get into -- to put their name in. >> mark halperin, you might be right, that's why we like to have a lot of different view points on "morning joe." willie? >> on these election nights we become used to donald trump doing big events at mar-a-lago, last night donald trump did not speak to the cameras but released a statement. >> he's not speaking in third person.

>> what does he have against puppets? >> maybe something happened. i don't know. >> like geppetto? >> what do you think of the statement? >> it there's a beauty to it, it's incredible. >> he agrees with you, what you guys said, people are voting for cruz not because they like him, but because he's a trojan horse. >> which is a huge mistake because they're going to get what they don't want. >> they're not going to get him. >> if they succeed, they will get exactly what they don't want. what they fear in trump, they'll get in cruz.

just saying. >> we've been talking about the importance of donald trump showing more discipline. . yes. >> it's a slow roll. [ laughter ] but you had the aipac speech which was a great step forward. you had donald trump putting out a policy paper on the wall, the mexican wall which, again, let people pick that apart but there's policy now attached to it that he can explain away and people can argue against the policy. then there's the statement last night, instead of a garage of angry tweets at fox news and all these other stuff, that's what he has to do that. statement was tough and you know what? it was on message. would i have put "lying ted cruz in there"? no. but i would haven't done a thousand things donald trump has done, he knows his audience and that statement was on message last night and it's what he had to do. >> he also answered your question from yesterday which is

can donald trump hold himself back from the cameras? can he resist the lure of the camera? just -- forgetting about what's in the statement, the fact that it was a statement and that he didn't do a press conference, didn't create a opportunity for him to go off on a tangent or say something that would get him in trouble, he stayed off the camera last night. some discipline just in that. >> he did acruise ted cruz of breaking the law without providing any evidence. >> well, he said a slow roll. >> barack obama accused mitt romney of murdering somebody so i think that's okay. >> super pac ads? >> i think if you're going accuse someone of breaking the law you should present a case. >> i guess barack obama didn't accuse murder of murdering somebody. just -- >> it was a super pac, wasn't it? >> yeah. >> because they don't work together. bill burton and president obama never knew each other, they don't talk ever. >> killing a man's wife.

it was killing a man's wife. barack obama's super pac suggested mitt romney killed a man's wife. >> the whole super pac thing is unfortunate and why bernie sanders might have raised $5 million. i'm serious. >> in 37 seconds. >> go ahead, willie. oh, sam stein, actually. >> oh, sam! i thought willie was going to sam. sam's there, hi, sam. >> look at sam. he looks so languid and bittersweet, to quote steely dan. sam, we look at donald trump's record and people question it and there's been a lot of criticism and concerns about things -- >> hold on, triage. co. here, can we get a shot. >> what's wrong with him? >> this is the second time you have spilled your drink. what is wrong with you? >> take the orange juice away from the man. >> i had an important question for sam. >> this is the second time in ten minutes. >> step away from the orange

juice, mark halperin. >> sam, while there's been much coverage of things like trump university and bob woodward coming to our sweat a file and everybody looking into trump's background and there's a lot to look at. >> quite a windup. >> but tell me, stop trump forces and all sorts of people in the establishment who are so fearful of donald trump, have we looked at ted cruz and the impact he's had on washington and our country and say the past two years? could you help us throughout? >> are we getting mark a new orange juice or is he forbidden? >> no, he's finished. cut off. >> is it just the orange juice or all juices we're cutting him off of. >> any liquids. >> i'm going to dilute them with water. >> the question is are we giving enough attention to ted cruz? probably not. he hasn't been the tremendopres

front-runner. and his career is fairly recent, at least his federal career. but remember this, early december or so david brock it will operative associated with the hillary clinton campaign put out a memo in which he said his groups will be focusing their research and efforts around ted cruz. at the time, people were like why would you do that? jeb, marco, trump, they're the front-runners. barack called it that cruz would end up being the nominee. it might not end up being the case but it certainly stands to reason that a lot of these outside groups have a lot waiting on ted cruz should he emerge from the convention. >> i would talk about the stuff that's out there. he's loathed in washington. he, quite frankly, is one of the reasons washington doesn't work today. >> he shut down the government. let's remember that. >> so stop trump forces and establishment who fear donald trump, understand that you're pushing someone in there you don't want. >> mark halperin, the other side of this is you have said for a

long time that cruz is the best organized, the best traditional money operation. you've said this -- >> and untraditional. >> and untraditional as well. and also i think we had said up until -- he had a horrible night may 15. >> march 15. >> march 15, i mean. that he always outperformed. >> well, you met him and thought he was smart. >> i sat down and had private conversations with the guy. i like him a lot more sitting across the room from him than i do -- >> this isn't personal. >> -- when he's giving speeches. i think he needs to tone back, be more natural in his speeches but he has outperformed in just about every metric. so when i say he's not going to be the nominee, i'd say the same thing about donald trump if donald trump had to count on the good will of the republican establishment to make him the part yenominee.

but you have been saying for some time, cruz has the best organization, the best money, and he outperforms. >> there's two schools of thought about what happens if no one has a majority. one is it will be one of the three guys in the race or someone who ran before and got out. or it can't be one of those people. i don't know which is right but increasingly i think cruz is going to have a hold on a lot of delegates, including some people who vote for trump on the first ballot but are committed to voting for cruz after that. still ahead on "morning joe," a live interview with presidential candidate hillary clinton. on friday bernie sanders joins us on set. still ahead, howard dean, bill crystal, chuck todd, nicolle wallace, tom brokaw and tavis smiley. >> this is a big morning, mika. >> you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. ew car. nobody's hurt, but there will still be pain. it comes when your insurance company says they'll only pay three quarters of what it takes to replace it. what are you supposed to do? drive three quarters of a car? now if you had liberty mutual new car replacement,

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a 2-2, right well hit, back it goes, carrying, carry, gone! david ortiz on opening day! >> if you were watching "afternoon joe" around 3:40 in the afternoon you got to see mike barnicle watch that home run live on national television. we were in the middle of a great

discussion about delegate math and barnicle is watching the red sox game under the desk. >> he's one of those kids in school. >> or look at the live feed from lexington, kentucky. >> he got away with everything. >> can you tell the david price story about the decision -- because a lot of times -- willie, they -- there's a huge board room in boston, there are about 30 people that sit around it to make big decisions. >> all the decisions. >> you have to go through all 30 of those people so mike talk about how they got david price. >> that changed last summer when john henry hired david dombrowski to hire the operations of the boston red sox. and last fall he walked down the hallway, walked into sam kennedy's office, the coo of the boston red sox and said "sam, do we have $213 million that i could spend on getting a pitcher?" sam looks down "yeah, we do." he left sam's office, walked

down the hallway, picked up the phone and signed david price for $213 million. >> wow. >> vanderbilt's own. let's turn to the democrats and take a closer look at bernie sanders. >> i guess i'm supposed to say at this point that's immoral that a pitcher could make that much money. >> that's great. welcome to the dark side, gentlemen. you fought it for too long. [ laughter ] >> -- double digit win over hillary clinton. the senator from vermont was dominant all over the state beating clinton in all but three of wisconsin's 72 counties. as we mentioned, it's sanders' sixth straight victory and it means he's now won 15 states to clinton's 18. still, because of her massive advantage among super delegates, clinton's grip on the nomination remains a tight one. but sanders' appeared undeterred by the fact when he emerged at his victory party in wyoming and

summed up the state of his campaign with a single word -- or a few. >> let me say a word -- well, maybe two words, i don't know -- about what momentum is all about. momentum is starting this campaign 11 months ago and the media determining that we were a fringe candidacy. momentum is starting the campaign 60 to 70 points behind secretary clinton. momentum is that within the last couple of weeks, there have been national poll which is have had us one point up or one point down. [ cheers and applause ] >> i tell you what, that is an extraordinary story. >> it is. >> bernie sanders. just extraordinary story. i think, though, the question, is mike barnicle, is it going to have an impact in the end? >> bernie sanders? >> bernie sanders -- it's kind

of like, you know, you had sanders and cruz both winning big, big victories last night. both of them have every reason to be excited but does it change the game in the end? >> probably not. hillary clinton is still going to go in with a wide delegate lead, she already has a wide delegate lead. but chipping away at this -- bernie sanders has won 16 contests. hillary clinton has won 20. at some point, hillary clinton has to put bernie sanders away and has to do it relatively soon. >> i think there's an impact, though. i think it's been made clear by bernie sanders whether he -- for some reason makes it through this incredible challenge ahead of him or not i think the message is clear that there is an issue. that really is pervasive or across the country that people are needing to hear hillary clinton answer to. that's income inequality and all the other issues. >> here's what's interesting, willie geist. you have to two insurgent candidates, donald trump, bernie

sanders both scene as being weak on substance. bernie sanders revealed so yesterday in a "new york daily news" article. and yet he won by 13 percentage points last night. people want change and if bernie sanders doesn't know all the detail details they don't seem to be undeterred. that i think he will be a change agent. they think there's a general feeling if a guy like bernie gets to washington or trump they'll surround themselves with people that know the details but bernie will move in the direction his supporters want him to move. >> domestic policy they listen to him but more broadly it's an emotional connection like there is with donald trump. >> with a message. >> but you showed that delegate math last night. he won by 13 points and only three delegates was his advantage. there were a couple warning signs. she got creamed with young voters again. he won 80% of young voters. her honest and trustworthy numbers on exit polling, terrible. so i don't know if it's you have no make a difference now in this

primary process but down the road it could hurt her. >> as you look towards a general election, what is donald trump criticized for? donald trump is criticized for two things, one, the fact that people don't think he tells the truth, he's disconnected from the truth. he's disconnected from the reality of the truth and the facts. if he goes up against hillary clinton, it's weakness versus weakness. the second thing has to do with women. and when donald trump is getting hammered for his treatment of women, he's going to point to bill and hillary clinton on treatment of women, too. you actually have in the general election weakness going after weakness, somebody disapproval in 50s versus disapproval in the 60s. i'm shocked that nobody jumped into run an independent campaign. >> mike bloomberg probably specifically is still thinking about that. joe biden is -- >> it's too late. >> of course it's too late. but the longer this goes on, this amazing year in american

politics, are we coming down to a conclusion where hillary clinton's hold card is the republican? whoever liit will be. because when you look at the pictures, when you look at bernie sanders rally, on the democratic side, it's a contest between yesterday, hillary clinton and tomorrow represented by a 74-year-old socialist. >> well, look, there's -- unquestionably hillary clinton will -- if nerm terms of tryin generate enthusiasm, she will have good foils if either the nominee is donald trump or ted cruz. but before we get to that far this is a big victory for bernie sanders in this sense. had he lost last night in wisconsin given the expectations it would have been the moment when the party would have started to say "time to get out of the race." no one will say that now. >> same thing with ted cruz. >> so he's going to come to new york city and new york state. we have two weeks, this first contested primary since 1992. primaries here are crazy because

this is the home of the national media. for the next two weeks, hillary clinton in a state where she is not guaranteed of winning this state, her home state, there will be an extraordinary amount of focus on this race and about hillary clinton's weaknesses and why it's taking her so long to put away the 74-year-old socialist. bernie sanders is going to throw a rally in washington square park next wednesday where there could be 's incredible. >> and the optics of seeing sanders go around her home state and draw crowds that are five, ten times larger than her crowds is going to be a difficult -- >> and acting like the beatles have come to town. >> and you add that to donald trump coming to long island, upstate new york. the next two weeks -- in this crazy campaign year, i can't believe it. new york is usually not relevant. over the next two weeks on both sides, it's crazy. >> in the home of the national media. >> in the home of the national

media. the next two weeks are going to be insane. and because it will be so insane, mike barnicle, i am going to give you a gift. >> oh, no! >> i wanted that. >> just for the next two hours. i found this in a drawer yesterday, a dear, dear friend pat buchanan. i don't wear this button as a slight on 41 who i just absolutely love and adore but we love pat, too. >> read it out. >> it says "down with king george, buchanan in '92." and i just thought the more things change, the more they stay the same. you had a populist insurgent with a lot of people who are supporting trump going after a bush in '92. the same exact thing happened in '16. we love pat buchanan and we're going to drag him on set whether he wants to come or not. >> joe, i was with pat the night in nashua, new hampshire, in 1992 when he urged the huge crowd, "ride to the sound of the guns." >> don't wait for instruction from command.

ride to the sound of gunfire! >> speaking of, hillary clinton will be our guest this morning live. also ahead, bill kristol. it's a good morning for bill. and howard dean joins the table when ""morning joe" continues. why do so many businesses rely on the us postal service? because when they ship with us, their business becomes our business. that's why we make more e-commerce deliveries to homes than anyone else in the country. here, there, everywhere. united states postal service priority: you

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>> are you kidding me, bill? up next, bill kristol wonders if wisconsin could be trump's waterloo after trump lost the town of waterloo, wisconsin. he joins us next along with hillary clinton supporter howard dean. oh, this is going to be a train wreck. we'll be right back. you've finally earned enough reward miles on your airline credit card. now you just book a seat, right? not quite. sometimes those seats are out of reach, costing an outrageous number of miles.

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joining us now, editor of the "weekly standard," bill kristol and former governor of vermont and former chairman of the democratic national committee, howard dean. good to have you both. >> good to be here. >> i want to talk about something i brought up early on. wisconsin voters did something they you rarely see happen. they calculated. they went to the voting booth voting for somebody that was probably their fourth of fifth choice specifically to stop donald trump. i don't know that i've ever seen that happen before. >> it's a great state. we should put wisconsin and utah

in charge of the country. everyone else can go home. >> and louisiana. cruz came back in the caucuses in wisconsin. >> if you look at the map, missouri, a state even between ted cruz and trump, cruz won the rural areas, the conservative areas, evangelical areas. trump won the suburbs, as i recall, in st. louis. here trump -- cruz rolls up huge margins in the milwaukee subu suburbs. these are upper middle-class suburban republicans, the kind whom cruz -- had been very resistant to cruz. who were supposed to be for kasich. they decided cruz was alternative to trump. cruz made himself more acceptable to his credit. >> talk about how this is different, how, again, just even take the players out of it. just as a calculation, just the calculation, the people weren't voting their heart, they were making a calculated decision. >> donald trump will do that to you, i think. and i give them credit for doing it. scott walker spent a lot of time, charlie sykes, conservative talk radio host and others, spent time trying to

persuade voters about ted cruz to overcome them. the interesting question for me is if he can win upscale milwaukee suburbs, could he do it in upscale new york suburbs? philadelphia suburbs? maybe not. maybe not. it's hearter. milwaukee suburbanites are probably more conservative than philadelphia suburbanites. that's why cruz won, that that it was just impressive, if he can hold that, if he can put together a coalition of ideological conservatives and suburbanites who can't stand trump then he could be the nominee. >> howard, let's look at the democratic side. hillary's lost six of the last seven contests and yet you look at the delegate counts and it's just -- she's still away ahead. does it matter she keeps losing these contests? >> it only will matter in the big states. bernie will win another one this weekend, the wyoming caucus which is he'll get a small handful of delegates. the trouble is we're a proportional party.

if you get 43% of the vote, you get 43% of the delegates or sometimes a little more. >> doesn't her going into the general election if she gets the nomination -- >> no. >> -- that she's lost these states? >> it doesn't. i know that's the big thing in the press but i can remember jimmy carter losing -- at the end of jimmy carter's nomination process, frank church got in, jerry brown got in, they each won primaries. people get the democratic nomination even losing california. >> when you win, you win. >> you have to win california, pennsylvania, new york and new jersey or some combination of, that bernie has to do that. >> on the carter analogy, it showed a kind of weakness in carter then the republicans had their ford/reagan showdown. ford came out of the convention 25 points and lost by one point. if you're a republican you think we could have a messy convention in cleveland, we could end up nominating ted cruz, we could hopefully not nominate donald trump, someone other than the two of them. it will be a horrible mess, the trump people will say they'll never support the republican, they'll go out 15 points down

but it could be like '76 where ford almost made it back to win. or '68, the democrats had the worst convention in modern times. humphrey came down 30 points and almost wins. so the media is very into oh, the convention will be a mess. >> people always coalesce. i tell you what, even the person who hates -- whether they hate donald trump the most or ted cruz the most or whomever, it's two days before they go in the voting booth. they're going to go "do i really want hillary clinton to pick the next three supreme court justices?" >> joe will be making the case for ted cruz. and personally i admire you stiff upper lip this morning. i came in around 5:00 to 6:00 this morning, i heard sobbing from joe's room, you know? and my god donald is on the phone with him and -- but you pulled it together well. >> everybody knows you're not telling the truth because they don't get here until 5:59. [ laughter ] >> that's true. >> i wasn't surprised by donald

trump losing. i was disappointed that kasich underperformed as badly as he did, a guy a vi know and like j >> so where are you? we asked charlie sykes and others yesterday. do you think ted cruz would be a great nominee and great president or is it that you just can't bear the thought of donald trump getting in there? do you want to get to the convention and pin somebody else entirely different or are you happy if ted cruz is the nominee? >> i'm happy with ted cruz but i'm hope to the notion that delegates won't select ted cruz then you can get to a compromise candidate who i don't think will be paul ryan, contrary to the media. >> who else is out there? >> i'm fine with cruz. new york will be an interesting test and the northeastern states after that. this will be a test of whether he can expand his appeal and if he can expand his appeal to suburbanites in new york -- >> we've talked about this already. let's talk about something really interesting. that is the two or three republicans who that could no f

not paul ryan could get in there. do we get back to the jebs, the marcos? >> no. no. >> you can't have people that lost before? >> i don't think so. i think some statesman-like type. >> mitt romney? >> no. none of them are quite right. >> so who is this emergency their person? >> if john kyl were five years younger, if condi rice were more conservative. there are senior people who you could imagine after six or seven deadlocked ballots saying this guy is a serious leader of our party. i think if cruz does well he's more likely than not to be the nominee. if he doesn't, i think either trump or a deadlocked convention. >> look at this new quinnipiac poll out of pennsylvania. trump 39%, cruz 30%. kasich 24%. >> see, that's interesting. and what if -- this is why the kasich thing is important from last night. if you had said to us three weeks ago what is wisconsin going to look like? we would have kasich is going to be a big contender. if he's not a credible

alternative, if he's -- only of ohio, of 30 states that that have voted, if he's not credible, do some of those pennsylvania voters who are with john kasich go to cruz? does that back 40-40 race in? pennsylvania? people were saying two weeks ago that's a trump state. >> you don't know whether they go in the northeast to trump or whether they go to cruz. it's really fascinating. it will be remarkable. >> the one thing about pennsylvania that's interesting is jim carville used to say the middle of pennsylvania is alabama. those are not for the most part deeply religious voters. they are white working class voters who long ago abandoned the democratic party. >> that's the core of trump country. >> that's the case i'm making. this is different than wisconsin where you have the counties in milwaukee making the decision to vote strategically. these people won't vote strategically. these are the alienated people you were talking about who like trump because trump will kick the table over. >> if you could circle the two areas that are trump's strongest

areas, circle the deep south from georgia over the mississippi and you'd also start lining in west virginia, you draw it through central pennsylvania and upstate new york and so, yeah, i think if cruz will do well, he'll have to do well down state new york, he'll have to do well also in philadelphia. >> i think if we said months ago that cruz will lose the south and could win the nomination. >> i'm looking at you. >> sorry, sorry. >> she's getting mad at me. >> howard dean, bill kristol -- this is your forte, you sometimes need to stop so we can go to break. >> thank you, howard dean, bill kristol. still ahead, chuck todd breaks down the winners and losers from last night's battle in wisconsin. plus, tom brokaw and nicolle wallace join the table. >> congratulations, bill kristol, congratulations. one good night. ry and abigail higgins had...

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you know, i like our primary a lot better than theirs. sometimes -- you know, i got one of these tivo things and sometimes i just replay that scene from the florida republican debate where trump and cruz and rubio are calling each other liar all at the same time. [ laughter ] it looks like some sort of video rap contest, you know.

[ laughter ] all right, that's quotable bill clinton, he helps whip up voters in new york. hillary clinton, he's going to have a lot riding on the empire state less than two weeks away. what a campaign. i don't think new york has been relevant since bill clinton rode into town in 1992 and that was exciting. the democratic front-runner is going to be our guest in the 8:00 hour. we're also going to back with more on last night's kiwi wi results with chuck todd, n k nicolle wallace, the "game change" boys halperin and heilemann. that's all next. (laughing) there's nothing like making their day. except making sure their tomorrow

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look at that, mika. beautiful new york city, but also it's going to be the center of a political universe. i mean, the city that -- >> never sleeps. >> the city that never sleeps but also a city that has a bit of a chip on its shoulder because nobody pays attention to it and we're always saying this to chuck todd, everybody pays attention to philly. >> washington, washington, washington. >> everybody pays attention to hartford, nobody pays attention to new york city. but for the next two weeks, and we have the show in new york city again, for the next two weeks, new york city is going to be the center of the political universe. >> just give us a chance. we're scrappy. >> just give us a chance. >> just want a little spotlight for once. >> it will get all the spotlight as the fight for the nomination in both parties shows no sign of stopping. ted cruz scored a must-win victory comfortably beating trump 48% to 35%. governor john kasich won 14%.

trump performed well and ended the night with three delegates. cruz has taken home 33 so far, six are yet to be decided. on the democratic side, bernie sanders extended his winning streak to six with a 14-point victory in wisconsin over hillary clinton but he verily made a dent in the race. >> how do you beat somebody by 13 points and only pick up three delegates? >> because the democrats have their "everybody gets a trophy" delegate allocation rules so you need to win by 25 to get a lot of delegates. >> whatsy that? >> the way they're allocated. it's allocated proportionally. >> why do they allocate it that way? >> because when they decided to do it this way -- >> sam has knowledge on this. let's go to sam. >> mark doesn't appear to know. that's fair?

>> the republican rules aren't that different. it's state by state but the party has a system where you don't -- if you do decently, dividing by congressional district, you need a huge win. >> you've been around, sam, you saw what happened in '48 with truman. compare that to what happened last night in wisconsin. >> it's apples and oranges, joe. bernie won 10 delegates actually. 10 daex more than hillary clinton but if you add in the so-called superdelegates which are the party insiders who cast a ballot at the convention then the margin goes down to three. the reason is democrats wanted to have a more small "d" democratic primary system in which a front-runner can't necessarily run away -- well-funded person can't run away but it becomes harder for somebody to catch up like sanders is finding out right now. so what sanders has to do is

overtake clinton in the pledged delegate lead and convince all those super delegates they have to respect the will of the people and go with him at the convention. that's a difficult task. he has to win these big states like new york, by big margins so that he can erase that 200 or so pledge delegate lead. >> not only that. he's also going to have to -- if you want to make an argument in super delegates, you have to say more people voted for me than voted for hillary clinton and right now what is he? two million short? >> can't say that. we have john heilemann and mike barnicle with us. >> is the delegate allocation process now the same as it was in 2008? >> it's exactly the same. and, again, it makes it harder for anyone to break away. no winner take all but it makes it harder if you're behind to catch up because within a congressional district you have to win overwhelmingly, if you're dividing three delegates or four

to go from 2-1 or the 3-1 or 2-2 you need to one by a much bigger margin than either of these candidates will do. >> think about the difference if the republicans had super delegates. all super delegates bowould hav lined up behind jeb bush. he would have lost in iowa but we would have said jeb bush is 500 delegates ahead, he could have lost new hampshire but jeb bush is 400 delegates ahead. it really does cook the books for whomever the front-runner is. >> we would have been saying coronation. >> the reason sanders has a narrow path to the point of zero is because super delegates will stay with hillary clinton almost no matter what and because of delegates allocation rules, it there's no way for him to catch up. he would need a combination of decent sized wins and something that shakes the confidence of the snugs super delegates. >> gop turnout broke the record set back in 1980 with nearly 1.1 million people participating.

>> i thought the abhorrent voter i.d. laws were going to keep people away from the polls. >> i know. it's amazing. something happened. maybe people brought their i.d.s? >> well, i don't know. but boy that's certainly -- i mean, that's just this side of a poll tax making somebody bring a picture i.d. i can't believe they broke the records. i was watching all day yesterday about how this is disenfranchisement of poor voters. it made me sad. i thought isn't this what the communists did? >> do that you have story? >> i was like what? what? and now look at that, willie. >> the disenfranchised voters. >> wisconsin people are geniuses, they outfox it had system. >> what's interesting is how many people turned out not to vote for someone but to vote against somebody. 100,000 more people than voted in the reagan revolution in 1980. >> it's fascinating. >> and there was voter repression. >> the nbc news exit poll found far fewer republican voters

angry at washington just 32% compared to nearly double that in nevada. >> by the way, they'll put that on their license plate, "wisconsin, it's cool." and. >> and "lose with cruz." among the key groups behind cruz's victory were those most concerned about winning in november who went for cruz 68% to 19% for trump along with those who preferred a candidate with experience in politics. 68% to 8% for trump. cruz also won with those who said trade creates u.s. jobs and voters with incomes of over $100,000. some of the forces that sought to stop -- >> can we talk about that for a second? >> sure. >> john heilemann, you look at those numbers where you break out and look at the wisconsin voters, that is the dream of -- and i don't say this negatively -- of the "wall street journal" editorial page, that type of voter, of the republican establishment in washington, d.c., of political pros that are looking saying, okay, they want somebody who can win. they want somebody with experience. they want somebody like us. >> yeah, right. i mean, look, this is -- there's

been for weeks now the establishment, whatever -- to the extent that it exists in its frayed state has been trying to figure out a way to put the brakes on donald trump and partly with the help of trump himself who obviously caused himself a lot of problems over the course of the last couple weeks but also by finding a state that will be receptive to a certain kind of message, by managing to put together both the establishment in its normal form like the elected officials, people like walker and the state party and then also that piece of the establishment that constitutes conservative talk radio, they made an argument for essentially strategic voting and it seems to have happened in wisconsin. >> some of the forces that sought to stop trump are spiking the football this morning. club for growth claims that with the help of their $1 million ad buy that they helped turn the tide against trump. katie packer, who runs our principles pac shared credit citing $2 million in tv

advertising in addition to radio ads, billboards, digital, e-mail, and over a million voter contacts. and she tells nbc news that going forward they will stop focusing as much on statewide wins. "we're going to be working very aggressively to elect delegates that aren't for trump." state republican parties hold their delegates selection committees over the next two months and the group is deploying resources to ensure delegates selected are not trump supporters. so i don't know if you read this in the "new york times," elizabeth williamson writes ss the "times".

. people are overreacting. it's a big win for cruz, it puts him in a strong position but the northeast will be a real test for cruz and kasich. trump will be strong here and i think he needs to -- trump needs to do better but he can get back in control of his own destiny if he begins to perform better way he was before. >> mika, this is what we have found in this campaign is this campaign has been about donald trump. it hasn't been about jeb or marco or ted cruz. donald trump for better or for worse has made this campaign about him. and as we go forward over the next two, three, four weeks it's not going to be about ted cruz. ted cruz is not going to be able to stop donald trump. as i think we've all said around this table for some time. only donald trump is going to be able to stop donald trump in new york, in pennsylvania, in new jersey, in connecticut. >> totally agree. >> he stopped himself in

wisconsin. >> right. >> he made a series of mistakes but anybody thinking that ted cruz or the super pacs that can do anything to stop donald trump ignored the lessons of florida, of ohio. donald trump stopped himself over the last two weeks and the next two weeks won't be about ted cruz or john kasich or super pacs, it's going to be all about donald trump. can he discipline himself? >> i totally agree and i think if he wants to i think he can, i really do, just sort of snowing h -- knowing him but the super pacs and people taking credit for whatever they thought they did in wisconsin are a fantastic foil for trump. if he uses them wisely. he's done it before, he can do it again but he's got to do it without the -- as melania put in the an interview "retweeting. no more retweeting." the crowd went wild. i thought it was fantastic because it was a bigger point she was making which is stay away from all the side noise and the circus stuff and petty fights and start focusing in.

the spotlight is on you and one other guy and you need to step up. >> and the no tweeting last night, a statement of the mexican wall. >> melania is the best advisor. >> to go back to the thing about the delegates, winning primaries, winning caucuses, winning votes, doing well in the media, all that will be important. but the way trump is disadvantaged right now is with these delegates, a lot of whom care about electability, a lot of whom will be more loyal to ted cruz than donald trump. and that inside game is something trump has to learn how to play and his people have to excel in because they're behind cruz and delegates will pick this nominee, not voters. >> we're talking about him controlling his own destiny. it's becoming increasingly difficult for him to control his own destiny. after last night, going forward yes he has states where he'll do well but even his best case scenarios bring him just under 1237. so he may not be in a position to get to that mark. he could if he blows people away

in those states but if he doesn't this race is torn wide open at the convention and as i said before, now you're relying on your ground game and skills of manipulating delegates and getting to unbound delegates. we could have this historic situation where these 106 unbound delegates are determining the future of the nominee and potentially the republicans. how do you sway them? >> those delegates could be looking at donald trump who might shift and he might step up and it will be a choice between someone who can evolve and ted cruz. that's all i'm saying. >> here's the thing, political professionals know this. people that know -- we just showed a poll for people driving in the car listening to us, 52% of republicans say trump should be the nominee in latest mcclatchy marist poll. if he has the most delegates. 40% say nominate somebody else.

mike barnicle, i lost my train of thought, pick it up. >> we were speaking about this yesterday, the delegate acquisition process within the republican party. and it appears from what i've told, you speak to these people far more often than i do, mark, but it appears ted cruz's process is much more sophisticated than any of the other two. certainly more than trump's and certainly far more than governor kasich's and you also get the impression -- or at least i do -- from speaking with the few people with expertise in this -- that if donald j. trump doesn't go to cleveland with 1230 or pretty close to 1237 he ain't getting that nomination. the delegates, not the voters, are going to take it from him. >> yeah. and the question is where will they go? and trump -- that's why you see increasingly trump working really hard to get delegates. i think, you know willie said his best case leaves him short. his best case gets him to a majority still and they know that that is a position they

need to get in because they're way behind in the hearts and minds of these delegates and i'll say there are many people, maybe scores of delegates who will vote for trump on the first ballot because they have to but they'll be ready to go someplace else the minute they can on a second or third ballot depending on state rules and trump's got to be more electable. cruz goes around saying "i'm the only one who can beat hillary clinton." he doesn't look electable in polls against hillary clinton, either. >> that's what i was going to say before. people in know politics and know the electoral map know this. there's not a single state that mitt romney lost that ted cruz can win. you know what you're going to get with ted cruz. you know what the electoral map looks like with ted cruz. and ted cruz is a guaranteed loss. he just is in a general election. >> lose with cruz! >> somebody please if you can -- >> it's all good. >> tweet my account @joenbc and

give me any reason to believe that ted cruz can win a state that mitt romney didn't win. >> or any reason to believe that ted cruz is what the republican party wants. >> he would have to grow a lot as a candidate. >> it's the same argument as donald trump. donald trump would have to grow allot. but you have people like david plouffe saying that trump rearranges the map. you have plouffe, you have axelrod, you have all the obama people saying they would be more nervous running against donald trump than ted cruz because ted cruz -- you know how to box him in. >> today that's a perfect analysis, trump does not -- trump scrambles the map, he opens up states. today it does not appear cruz does. but i think when bill kristol, who thinks about this all the time, who knows all the players, bill kristol could not name a single name of someone he thought could be an alternative at the convention, he discounts ryan, i still think ryan but trump and cruz have to prove they're electable because the

delegates will care a ton about that. coming up on "morning joe," hillary clinton joins us live on the heels of another tough loss to bernie sanders. how she plans to pivot to the general election while still losing states in the primary. looking ahead to new york as well. plus, our political panel expands. chuck todd, tom brokaw and nicolle wallace all join the table. >> none of them sleep, by the way. >> nicolle has not slept, she's going to be punchy. get ready. we'll be right back. when you think about success, what does it look like? is it becoming a better professor by being a more adventurous student? is it one day giving your daughter the opportunity she deserves? is it finally witnessing all the artistic wonders of the natural world? whatever your definition of success is, helping you pursue it, is ours. t-i-a-a. i thought my bladder leakage

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>> the national championship goes to connecticut for the fourth year in the row at the dynasty fulfills its destiny. >> gino is amazing. it's amazing what he does year in and year out, year in and year out. these women just an extraordinary dynasty. >> unbelievable. gino auriemma is the best coach ever. >> and you know who is obsessed with this show?

>> who? >> gino. >> he watches! >> big political junky. he goes to the white house as often as i do. [ laughter ] and he'll -- and he always goes "oh, man, i love "morning joe."" he's a huge, huge fan. he's probably watching this morning. if he's up. >> well, congratulations. >> he's not up right now. top-ranked uconn women celebrated that fourth straight national crown after beating syracuse by 31 points in last night's championship game. the huskies completed their sixth perfect season and pushed head coach gino auriemma past john wooden with an 11th national title. brianna stewart takes home most outstanding player, she's the first player in men or women's division one history to win four mop awards. is. >> that is extraordinary. >> it is extraordinary. i'm going to date myself but i was a reporter in connecticut. i covered gino when he was covering rebecca lobo. you remember her? she's like -- i don't know,

probably 40 now? >> her daughter is probably getting recruited right now. >> exactly! she was great. so joining us now, nbc news political director and not rater of "meet the press" and host of "mtp daily" chuck todd. former communications director for george w. bush, nicolle wallace and nbc news special correspondent up all night tom brokaw. >> you have to go back to 1992. we new yorkers, you and i and chuck know this is, we have an inferiority complex because nobody pays attention to us. but over the next two weeks, just like 1992, new york is the center of the political world and that rarely happens. >> it really hasn't happened in a long time since al gore came up here and had his head handed to him and jesse jackson came up and went off the charts with his choice of words as well. i think it's important that we have new york as a part of all of us because it is new york, it's the financial capital of the world, it has a lot of delegates going in both parties.

i've been thinking about what we witnessed in the last 48 hours or so, the great dan jenkins used to -- still writes a lot of great books, he has a character who is a basketball player and his nickname was try and one. and try and one kind of sums up what got donald trump into trouble in wisconsin. his whole campaign, just let fly frommer you happen to be. we'll see whether he can make a change now. also it's worth saying, this is a tribute to the campaign of senator cruz because he drafted on trump at the beginning, got right behind him, didn't get in a fight with him, then when he picked his sights about when he could take him on and he was handed the advantage of trump beating up on his wife and he took full advantage of that. so i would not take my eye off cruz even though we're coming to new york where he has put his foot it n it. >> new york values. >> so, chuck not a good night for either of the front-runners.

>> no. both lost by 13 points. but both of the front-runners are coming to what should be home territory. what are you looking for over the next couple of weeks? >> we said new york -- the minute tom said financial capital, i hope the next two weeks are about debating how these guys will deal with wall street. that's what it should be. it's not going to. so you would say on paper it should be in bernie's wheel house and all of that on the democratic side and potentially in trump's wheel house on the republican side. i think it will be too radically different types of campaigns. you'll see more stop trump people come out of the closet. you're going to see that. we'll try to -- i think trump will make the policy pivot attempt. we'll see how he does. can he stop all of the chat about what's going on in his organization? how does he handle the next 72 hours? last night he handled it horribly. let's see how he handles the next 72. >> i thought the vitriolic

statement was just when you sit there and refer to lying ted and too insinuate it's being taken from him already. i understand that they're trying to play hard ball but in the last week he's been trying to make peace with the republican party. if he doesn't have the respect of the insiders, he won't get the nomination. i think hammering them too hard, you only poke the bear. >> i disagree with you. i disagree with you because that's his brand. me against the world. i think the reason it was a success is because he didn't go out and do a free range -- >> he did it in press. you're saying it could have been worse? >> you put the statement out there, we didn't see him with steaks or water. we didn't see him saying something off the charts. we saw him make a policy statement on the wall who people have been mocking. something people have been mocking out the most lately and i thought it was a more

disciplined approach and he is coming home. the question is -- and it all comes down to him. i think ted cruz is irrelevant. even though tom is right, he's outperformed. far guy who has his unlikable of a public persona to do as well as ted cruz has done, it's pretty extraordinary. but what happens over the next two weeks, does donald trump discipline himself? >> we have an ongoing feud on this topic. i understand that there are people -- trump has a very close and small circle, but there has been a tension among some people in the family that enjoy the moments where he's more presidential, where he's able to elevate a little bit. >> i think that's the entire family. and the entire family is saying -- >> elevate a little bit. because when you that you can't be beat. >> he's not going to drive anyone away. >> right, his supporters won't be offended if he suddenly acts presidential but it's difficult

with him. he feels like being me as gotten me this far. i hope last night's crushing loss in wisconsin empowers the people who give him the advice to do more speeches like at aipac to show you can digest criminal policy. i have to say, though, about cruz, cruz stands on the best campaign structure organization on either side. and he is the most disciplined candidate running for president on either side. >> it's pretty remarkable. >> those are the things you don't get credit for. you don't win news cycles when there were 17 people. but when you're down to three, those things win elections in places like -- >> and by way t way, this delegate hunting -- >> he won't win. i still say he won't win the nomination but he's run an impressive -- >> i'd rather be cruz than trump at an open convention. i mean, the cruz campaign is going to -- they're systematically -- >> six of one half dozen of the

other. ted cruz is not getting 1237. >> under any scenario. i think you'd a always rather be the guy who has the mathematical opportunity. >> i said once you get to an open convention i'd rather be cruz because i think he will have identified the 1300 dhaegs are -- that should be -- that he might be able to win. that's the point. >> i think a question that we have not put on the table here yet is that this deep into the campaign and given what happened last night in wisconsin, has the trump campaign jumped the shark? have they gone so fwar this sty and by the way it's burn every bridge in town, take down the villages. when he takes on women as he did last week and as uninformed as he was about abortion this late in the campaign, sooner or later that catches up with him in some degree and i don't know downstream how much of an impact that will have. >> i agree with you.

and when we talk about his numbers with women, it's not about his comments about women. it's that women make up a disproportionate amount of independent voters and people that may be registered as democrats or republicans but they swing both ways and they are very sensitive to this idea that he doesn't know his mind. i think moderate women can support in some cases a pro-life politician but it has to be thoughtful. they have to know their mind and i think that the coverage of his problem with women is all about tweeting pictures. women aren't making assessments based on how they talk about us, they're making assessments about fitness to serve. i think the national security gaps in his knowledge, they're very reminiscent for me of sarah palin's gaps in her knowledge and they are -- they make people uncomfortable at this late stanchts l stage. >> let's talk about the democratic side. >> there's so much there. so much. >> hillary clinton lost six of the last seven. doesn't seem to matter in the delegate count, tom. how does it set her up for new

york? a state she needs to win. >> that's going to be hard to know. obviously we saw what happened when bernie sanders came to new york and held a rally, he had, what, 18,000 people or something in the bronx one night and he does have new york roots and he does play to the progressive side in new york and a lot of the sections of new york, the upper west side, for example, in this city. the impact she has will be in a different character. here's the question i have about hillary clinton. say she keeps her momentum up and because of what's baked into the delegate count at this point. the people who are so enthusiastically for bernie sanders, do they go away. i went out there, worked my head off, no one wanted to listen to me, i'm staying home. that would be a disaster for the democratic party because they're playing to a narrower base of women and african-americans and people out of work and they need to get every one of them to come

to the polls. >> you look at the numbers, hillary clinton 83% voted for -- that said honesty was most important voted. hillary clinton doing poorly in wisconsin on honesty, doing poorly with young voters. she needs to turn that around. how does she do it? >> she's lucky the republicans are debating trump versus cruz. if the republicans were debating somebody who on paper looked very electable the hand wringing in the democratic party would be more serious than today. to me the pressure is still more on sanders to win new york than hillary. he's got to beat her somewhere where she was favored. he has -- everywhere he's won has been a place where he had a natural opening. >> he has to win new york. >> he has to win new york. but to his credit, he has said that. and part of me is like finally. you get these weasely words sometimes, "well, i've got to do well." >> he doesn't weasel. >> good for him. he's saying he's got to win. what you're describing about

clinton's challenge with sanders, it will be the insert name. it's the trump's challenge with the never-trump people or cruz's challenge with the trump people. who is going to deal with the alienating voter groups on both sides? and there's real alienation. >> that's the big story of this campaign on both sides that you are seeing everywhere. the alienation is so high. i've never seen it like this before. there's such a disconnect between the establishment in both parties and the candidates running. >> unbelievable. >> i don't know how he does it. but to address some of the issues you listed with trump on women and foreign policy and the holes that could hurt him in the general, he needs someone like condi rice. i don't know how he does it. but he could answer to that. >> i totally agree. >> he needs a high character successful woman. >> he needs one aweak. >> mika was saying for vice

presidents. >> i thought you meant endorse. >> does anyone believe in endorsements after the six ted cruz got in which they say "i can't stand him, i'm endorsing him and i won't publicly speak about it." who am any jeb bush? lindsey graham, scott walker. he kind of did it. last week he hated him. it's crazy, forget the word endorsement. >> lindsey graham said it's poison. >> but drink it. >> this guy is poison. watch me drink this poison now. jeb bush, like i said, he put out his endorsement at 4:30 in the morning in portuguese. >> this is why she is going to start her web site losewithcruz.com. >> he will lose the general. >> jeb bush -- >> go for it. >> jeb bush, his endorsement, alex told me the early morning after the brussels attacks. >> we were here. >> i am curious to see the next 48 hours -- >> who would do that and why? >> cruz needs to show momentum. does he have his version of chris christie in his back

pocket? a couple of these where you're like okay, something is happening here. >> tom brokaw, thank you so much for being on this morning. we want to congratulate you on a well-deserved honor. tom will be the 2016 recipient of the pointer medal for lifetime achievement in journalism that serves democracy. the awards ceremony is in december and the institute's president calls tom "one of the best journalists to ever appear in front of a camera." >> it's very generous. my worry is my doctor is telling these organizations things they're not telling me and saying "he only has so much time left." >> stop that right now! we will see you in december and january and february and march! chuck todd, thank you as well. my gosh -- >> on that note. we'll hand off to chuck at 9:06 a.m. eastern time. >> i'm fine if you go about 9:15. not such a bad idea. >> nicolle wallace, stay. i have an idea.

maybe we can propose to management that when we do extra hours we'll go on till noon and you start at 4:00 so you don't work an extra long day and we don't work -- >> i like that. sure. >> when i watch all of you i came from a working class background, hard hats and lunchboxes. honestly, it's an automatic reaction on my part "i wonder if they're getting time and a half." [ laughter ] or double time. we always knew in our neighborhood that guy got time and a half. everybody knew who's getting overtime. it's not gone away from my consciousness. >> well, thank you, tom. >> talk to the union rep. i'm going go down to the union rep's office. still ahead, nbc's hallie jackson reports live from wisconsin. she spoke to governor scott walker last night. we'll have that interview. in our 8:00 a.m. hour we'll speak live with hillary clinton and on friday bernie sanders joins us here on set. we'll be right back with much more "morning joe." every day you read headlines about businesses

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joining us from milwaukee, hallie jackson who has been following the ted cruz campaign. hallie, what does ted cruz have for a followup to this big win? >> here's what he and his campaign want to do. they want to be able, mika, to

surprise in the east. ted cruz will be in your neck of the woods, in new york in the bronx, he's making the turn to new york just a couple of months after railing against, as you know, new york values and hitting donald trump. but he's looking to be successful in certain congressional districts in new york and more broadly in places like pennsylvania and indiana. it's potentially an uphill battle for him. you look at where the polling is and donald trump looks very strong in the next six states in the republican primary. that said, two weeks for these results in wisconsin to sit and marinate is a fairly long time in the political universe. cruz is pointing to momentum. he's talking about how he raised $2 million yesterday alone. he feels like he has the momentum and the talking point now, guys, turning point, that is something you're hearing from -- you mentioned lindsey graham. it's something you're hearing from scott walker, too, cruz's surrogates and his supporters on board with trying to frame this as phase two in the race moving forward. i had a chance to catch up with governor walker last night backstage after the cruz watch

party and his victory speech and we talked about his endorsement. i know you don't like the word endorsement but remember walker's was a full throated one. it wasn't like mitt romney's where he said "i want to is support ted cruz to avoid a contested convention." listen to what scott walker has been say. it's been floating if there is a contested convention and it's not one of the presidential candidates in the race, your name has been thrown in, paul ryan is doling with this speculation. would you consider this? >> no, the bottom line is i am 100% behind ted cruz. i put the whole power of my endorsement, organization, all my supporters behind making a clear case ted cruz wasn't a default choice for me, he was the choice for me. i'm going to support him not only in the primary, i'll support him through convention. >> so walker impactful in wisconsin but as this race turns east, walker may or may not be on a trail a lot. we chatted last night and he said he may be out if he can fit

it into his schedule but cruz is moving towards more coalition-building events. expect to see him hold more rallies like the women for ted cruz rally with his wife, with his mother, with carly fiorina. he'll do that with different demographic groups. his argument is he is the one to bring together the party. the calendar looks different icr him in the next couple weeks. up next, the impact of the political rhetoric on the national psyche. tavis smiley joins the conversation. "morning joe" is back in a moment. ♪ ♪ only those who dare drive the world forward. introducing the first-ever cadillac ct6.

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retinol correxion from roc. methods, not miracles. trolling for a gig with can't blame you. it's a drone you control with your brain, which controls your thumbs, which control this joystick. no, i'm actually over at the ge booth. we're creating the operating system for industry. it's called predix. so g . joining us now, pbs host tavis smiley is the author of the new book "50 for your future." welcome back. >> good to be back. >> a couple of things. i think at one point you -- how do i say this?

you carefully said that donald trump might appeal in some ways to african-americans? are we still there? >> well, i am tired of black voters being taken for granted by one party and ignored by the other party so it was a clarion call to democrats to not do that this time around. we all know the conventional wisdom left the building before the train ever left the station. so anything could happen this time around. i just don't want democrats to take the black vote for granted. >> they have in the past. >> absolutely. they certainly have. and this time in part because the clintons have a long-term relationship with the african-american community there's the sense that the black political establishment rallying around her suggests that there's going to be just lockstep voter support for her candidacy and i think that with barack obama clearly not being on the ballot this time, you can't count on the high percentage of turnout with african-american voters you saw in that election. that's just common sense so you have to work harder for that african-american vote and i'm glad bernie is pushing hillary to be more progressive. >> some of his -- his message

and platform i think if people took a really good look at it, it addresses a lot of the issues that are holding back the african-american -- especially in criminal justice reform. >> it does. and i think the "times" was right when they suggested onemi starting early enough with black voters. because to the issues that matter to them he's speaking truth to power. >> he's right there. >> talking about holding democrats' feet to the fire. i know you and cornel west both came on early on, you had a book, you said you're going to hold barack obama accountable. i know cornel has taken a lot of abuse from democrats for not just lining up blindly behind everything the president does. have you taken some slings and arrows also? >> just a wee bit. you want to see the scars in my back? >> but you think you and dr.

west are right? >> i don't think -- i know, in fact, i don't have a monopoly on the truth. my life and work is about seeking the truth and speaking the truth and hopefully trying to stand on the truth and sometimes we don't all wake up at the same time so i think we're obligated to tell the truth we know and sometimes folk don't get that in season, it comes in time. so, yeah, you catch hell for trying to tell that. but when i put this book out "the covenant with black america" ten years ago, we laid out an agenda for what black vote needed to do to turn the tide against what was trying to take us under. in january of last year, we were here for the 10th anniversary of the book coming out and the data tells us over the last ten years black folk have lost ground in every major economic category. clearly one can't lay all that at obama's feet. but had we take than agenda more seriously and made some demands and not be so deferential -- sometimes your deference can lead to your detriment. >> hold you back. >> exactly. >> and you've been talking about this eight years ago, nine years ago, eight years ago, actually, when you were talking about --

we were having the discussion, i remember very well where you were talking about how president obama needed to be pushed because it would be harder for a black man sitting in the white house to do some things that a white man could do -- >> it has been. >> and people wouldn't say, oh, he's doing it just because he's white." or whatever. so you're actually helping the president. >> and not suggesting in print, i see all the time online people suggesting that hillary might get more done for black folk if she wins than obama did in part because either of his own choosing or by circumstance he found himself boxed in on race. what i said eight years ago to your point, what i still stand on today is that great presidents aren't born, great presidents are made. lincoln started out on the wrong side of the slavery question. frederick douglass helped him get there. fdr was a great president, lbj was pushed by mlk. but you have to push them. >> let's talk about "50 for your

future" as we talk about empowerment and people improving their lives. why did you write this book? how will it help us? >> i can't speak for others, i can speak for myself. i need all write it? how's it going to help us? >> the short answer is i can't speak for others. i can speak for myself. i need all the advice i can get, good advice. wherever i get it, however i get it, willie, from whomever, i feel an obligation to share that good wisdom. over the course of my life i've received such good advice. as most of us are on the commencement -- during commencement season on the circuit, a lot of what i've been talking about over the years and the speeches and other good advice i put in this book, 50 for your future. 50 short lessons can live better lives. >> i love this one sometime you have to lead like a general, sometimes you have to lead like a shepherd. >> can you please send that to donald trump. sometimes you lead like a general, sometimes you lead like a shepherd. >> it does apply. sometimes you lead out front and

other times like a shepherd you lead from behind. there are different ways to get what you want out of people. >> oh, my gosh, i love this. >> spend time -- it took me a long time to learn that, to spend time -- >> it is hard. the best advice i ever got. >> it is. because we think if we take time off, spend time with somebody else we hear the footsteps. it's hard to spend time in stillness. >> tell kids that sometimes wonder if they stick their neck out if it's worth it. you can't fit in and stand out. >> it is not easy to stand out. >> it is not easy. >> i like this book. >> that's true. >> you can't fit in and stand out. you need to be your authentic self. >> who are your big role models growing up? >> everybody. people who were famous. quincy jones taught me a lesson, maya angelo. my mama, my daddy. some lessons i learned the hard way. some of these lessons i'm

learning perennially. one of the lessons in the book is today is not refundable. i don't want to waste any day of my life but i find myself relearning these things time and time again. >> what about quincy jones? >> then we have to go. >> quincy says be humble with your creativity and gracious with your success. what's the most important lesson? always be humble with your creativity and gracious with your success. >> this is a great book to read to children as they're growing up. i know it's not for them, but i'm just saying. the lessons are -- they start early in life. they're so good. >> i'm taking this home but also good for political candidates. >> and graduates. >> another one for donald trump, the day after wisconsin. sometimes you are called upon to do things we cannot do alone. talk about that. >> it is true. i found in my life that whatever success i have had, most of it i've had to do in collaboration with other people. you can't do it alone. the message for donald trump is that celebrity can only take you

so far. another lesson in this book is fortune and fame can't fix the flaws. you guys were right earlier, donald has to discipline himself. the people have seen who you are in this election. it's fundamentally about what kind of country we want to be. the lesson for trump and other candidates, who are you really? >> that's not just for trump. >> for all of them. >> i have four kids ranging from 27 to 7. i'm going to get four of these. >> really good book. >> all of them. >> the book is 50 for your future. tavis smiley. >> get it for your child graduating for high school. >> get it for yourself. >> hillary clinton live here on "morning joe." we've got plenty of ground to cover, and that conversation is just ahead. ♪jake reese, "day to feel alive"♪

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what's recommended for me. x1 makes it easy to find what blows you away. call or go online and switch to x1. only with xfinity. up next we'll take you inside the numbers behind ted cruz's big win in wisconsin. were voters more interested in backing him or stopping trump? and how does hillary clinton explain losing the last six primary contests to bernie sanders? we'll ask her that when she joins us in just a few moments. "morning joe" is back in a moment. ok team, what if 30,000 people download the new app? we're good. okay... what if a million people download the new app? we're good. five million? good. we scale on demand. hybrid infrastructure, boom. ok. what if 30 million people download the app? we're not good.

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bernie. bernie. bernie. bernie. bernie. >> we won in wisconsin! [ cheers and applause ] >> with our victory tonight in wisconsin, we have now won seven out of eight of the last caucuses and primaries. >> god bless the great state of wisconsin. as a result of the people of wisconsin defying the media, defying the pundants, i am more and more convinced that our campaign is going to earn the 1237 delegates needed to win the republican nomination. >> we get an oh, jesus out of

heilman defy the media. >> he didn't defy the media. >> defy the media. >> defying the media? that's like marco rubio saying, nobody said this would happen. everybody said you were going to be in third place. defying the media. everybody said wisconsin was his state. the media was behind him. >> that was a fascinating night. >> both parties will go on. wisconsin though has spoken. last night ted cruz scored a must-win victory comfortably beating donald trump, 48% to 35%. governor john kasich won 14%, but as of this moment came in third in every county. we need to talk about that. >> yeah, we do. >> trump performed well in the northern and western parts of the state and ended the night with three delegates. cruz has taken home 33 so far, 6 are yet to be decided. on the democratic side, bernie sanders extended his winning streak to 6 with a 14 point victory in wisconsin over hillary clinton. >> so bernie's won, what, six out of seven? >> uh-huh.

>> but he barely made a dent in the delegate race. >> that's right. picking up 46 delegates to clinton's 43. senator sanders still trails by 670 delegates overall as the democratic race moves to saturday's caucuses in wyoming and new york's primary ten days after that. hillary clinton will be our guest this morning on "morning joe." that should be interesting. >> yeah. >> so with us on the set we have the managing editors of bloomberg politics, john heilman and mark halpern and in washington sam stein who was up way too early. >> willie geist, your second family in wisconsin. >> he doesn't talk about that. >> that's okay. >> the thing is you saw billie, she asked you a question, who buys two mini vans, right? guy with two families. your wisconsin people, i don't know if they surprised us or not but it was an identical story on both sides where you had both front-runners losing by 13 points and then the question

being is it going to have an impact in the end at all or not? but, still, what a big night for the underdog. >> yeah. the public polling was actually underestimating what ted cruz was going to do last night. had it about 10 points. he won by 13 points. this now becomes the story of delegate math. we're looking at the convention and unless donald trump can pull something huge in the states coming up because even the rosiest projections of the northeast and california get him a little under 1237. that doesn't count those unbound delegates. this could come down to the negotiation and the convincing, swaying. >> unbound delegates. >> become the nominee of the party. mark halpern going to be christmas in july. talk about last night though before we jump ahead. any big surprises? >> no. i mean, these are two weak front-runners, neither of whom went into wisconsin in a strong position, both of whom come out able to win the nominations. the heavy favorite still. >> both of them still heavy

favorites to win the nomination. >> heavy favorites but they both have to fight. in new york trump is a much stronger position than hillary clinton is. but beyond new york it will be a real fight for trump because even people who support him now say he is much better off going to the convention with the majority. if he doesn't have the majority, all bets are off for him and i think the party now is convinced they have their mojo. they have their confidence that they can deploy resources to stop him from getting the majority. >> you snow, i have said if he doesn't get the 1237 he might as well go home. actually, it does matter. let's say he gets -- let's say he's 100 short. that's going to be a lot easier for them to twist some arms, make some deals to possibly get over the threshold, but no doubt last night he would have preferred to do much better and the 13-point margin now certainly all of his critics, there are a zillion of them out there, are going to be saying wisconsin is going to be a drag on new york state. we won't know that for a week. >> being 100 short is a little

misleading. a lot of people bound to vote for trump are ghost ballots. they'll be bound to vote for him. >> right. >> but -- but they will figure out a way if they can keep him short, he won't be just 100 short, he'll be well more than 100 short. for every one he gains through negotiation he'll lose many more who want to be free to vote for somebody zblels by the way, willie and i working on a sci-fi thriller, the ghost delegate. we're 2/3 of the way through the script. a lot of violence in there. of course, willie and i -- >> keanu reeves already attached. >> he is. >> love the script. >> go ahead. >> at this point i don't think trump is the heavy favorite to win the nomination at all on the republican sides for the reason mark said. the most likely outcome is -- >> what's the percentage up to? >> 56%. >> he has to win 56% of the

delegat delegates? >> yes. how likely is that going into new york, new jersey, et cetera, et cetera? >> hard to bring it out. we talked about this on the air on afternoon joe. how strong will john kasich be in long island -- >> we have a sense of cruz's strength. cruz is fighting -- you could argue that -- >> can i answer your -- can i answer your john kasich question as a guy who loves john kasich and supports john kasich? if a guy is not strong in his neighboring state, he's not going to be strong in the northeast. >> it's not clear to me in the sense that i don't think you'll have in these other states the concerted effort of the republican establishment and conservative talk radio all siding with ted cruz and making a strategic decision to try to keep john kasich down. i don't know what will happen. will john kasich get 30% or get 15% in connecticut, rhode island, maryland and

pennsylvania. i don't know. >> here's why i think trump is the heavy favorite. kasich has not performed well. we all like him. think he's not doing as well as he should be. he may not catch on in the northeast anymore than he did. >> he's not going to. >> cruz. no reason to think he's not a great northeastern candidate. trump could spend the next month -- >> they also don't like him. i think the establishment and stop trump forces are shooting themselves in the foot because they're so blindly focused their hit tread on trump to the point that they can't see what they're going to get is cruz. >> well, they -- >> he will not pivot. he will beat ted cruz, someone who is resoundly hated in washington and has done damage when he spent time there. i think they're misreading trump who may not be the best candidate for the republican party in their eyes, but i bet has the ability to pivot on issues ten times more than ted cruz whether you like him or not. >> i think the stop trump movement will take the opposite lesson from wisconsin. >> it will back fire. >> charlie sykes, that group led

this charge and they stopped donald trump by a huge margin. >> they got ted cruz who will lose to hillary. >> he's trying to pivot. >> when we talked to charlie sykes on this show yesterday, remember what he said when we asked him about ted cruz. >> my first, second, third, fourth choice -- >> you probably shouldn't choose him. >> acceptable enough. >> he's not. >> listen, let's just be clear here -- >> it's fine with me. >> ted cruz will never be the nominee of the republican party. >> well, if he is, good for me. >> no, you don't have to even say that. ted cruz will never be the nominee. >> you don't think he's the second most likely nominee? >> no, not even close. >> who's more likely? >> paul ryan. you name the list. he -- right now the guy is loathed and he is loathed inside d.c. in a way that donald trump is not loathed. i mean, i know a lot of the establishment hates donald trump, but ted cruz is the devil that they know and they don't like him. he's not going to win the nomination. right now he is -- he's a vehicle to stop donald trump so

it's going to be -- >> and a very poor one. >> -- donald trump or somebody else. i don't know, maybe ted cruz is the most wonderful human being in the world when he's in the backyard throwing baseballs with his next door neighbors barbecuing. he is not on tv a likeable guy. not a likeable persona. >> he hasn't performed in a likeable way in washington, ie -- >> he's not going to do it, so it's going to be donald trump or somebody else. >> well, i think certainly it's true that the stop trump forces, never trump forces, that is how they see it. they do not believe for most of them they are actually on ted cruz's side. what they are, again, trying to get to a contested convention. they're secretly for kasich or marco rubio or paul ryan or mitt romney. they're for somebody else. again, scott walker is the best to me still the clearest example of a guy who a week before he endorsed ted cruz said and the nominee will be someone who's not a current candidate but i'm not going to endorse ted cruz.

>> no. >> that's the perfect calculation. >> people hate this when it's not real and not true and people don't tell the truth. >> they can't stand him and so it will be trump or it will be somebody else, but last night something really remarkable happened in wisconsin and i was talking to bill crystal off set about it. i don't know that i've ever seen it happen before. you know, people are always saying, maybe voters will go in and make a statement. >> right. >> maybe voters will go -- >> that never happens. it's bull. people go in and they vote usually with their heart. very rarely their head. wisconsin last night did something i've never seen before. you had suburban people who loathed ted cruz. disconnected from him ideologically, disconnected from him socially, disconnected from him temperamentally just like charlie sykes. they went in and extraordinary. they made the calculation. we're not going to vote for john kasich who will probably close

temperamentally. we're going to vote for the guy who's most likely to stop donald trump. it never happens. it happened last night in wisconsin. it's extraordinary. >> so to that point, gop turnout easily broke the record set 36 years ago in 1980 with nearly 1.1 million people participating. >> i thought there was voter suppression. i sure heard a lot of stories about voter suppression and voter i.d. laws. >> imagine how big voter turnout would have been without those. >> i thought they got water hoses out yesterday. >> not last night. >> in the media. >> in the media all day yesterday i heard breathless story. >> it was a story, a little bit overplayed. >> oh, my god. >> the nbc news exit poll found far fewer wisconsin voters angry at washington, just 32%. among the key groups behind cruz's victory were those most concerned about winning in

november. who went for cruz, 68% to 19% for trump. they preferred a candidate with experience in politics. 68% to 8% for trump. cruz also won with those who said trade creates u.s. jobs. voters with incomes over $100,000. last night cruz announced his campaign brought in $2 million and said he is convinced he will earn enough delegates to secure the nomination. >> tonight is a turning point. it is a rallying cry. it is a call from the hard working men and women of wisconsin to the people of america. we have a choice, a real choice. i am more and more convinced that our campaign is going to earn the 1237 delegates needed to win the republican nomination. either before cleveland or at the convention in cleveland, together we will win a majority

of the delegates and together we will beat hillary clinton in november. >> i wonder, mika, how do you think he asks for the macaroni and cheese? >> he goes, honey, honey, can i please have the macaroni and cheese. >> you know winston churchill said that the soviet union was a riddle wrapped in an enigma wrapped in a mystery. macaroni and cheese, much like that. >> i just -- >> dear, can you pass it to me? maybe, willie? what do you think? >> you're the love of my life, heidi. >> he -- he -- >> there's an element of theater every time he speaks. >> sorry. >> we were talking about that yesterday. i wonder how he is in private. two other notes real quick on ted cruz yesterday in wisconsin. he won among non-college educated voters. donald trump has cleaned up. cruz won those by double digits. again, all of these numbers, is

this a story about wisconsin or is this a story about the race going forward. we'll find out. we'll see if things change in the northeast. >> shocking numbers about are you mad at washington? you ask that question in alabama, mississippi, the numbers are way up there. wisconsin, ah, not really. do you want experience or do you want change in the south? wisconsin, no, you know, change is okay. we kind of like experience. you know, we're good. >> i'm surprised hillary clinton -- >> they are proto typical midwesterners. i understood trump was going to do well in new hampshire, south carolina, in the deep south. i'll tell you what, you get up in minnesota and wisconsin, that's sort of a blind spot for me. i think rubio would have done really -- >> surprised kasich -- >> we said rubio didn't have a state where he could have won. rubio would have done really well in wisconsin. >> this menu mock is raising a lot of money. >> who did we mock? >> ted cruz. >> speaking style.

>> he can't be the nominee. >> he can't. >> more delegates. >> he won't. >> are you going to do this again, mark, are you going to do this again? >> he wants him on the circus. >> it's nice. >> you should be able to speak freely. >> i am speaking freely. >> that's okay. you're going to change the world. >> i'm just telling you he will have the second most delegates. he will have a lot of delegates. he has a sophisticated delegate operation. a lot of money. >> listen, i know. >> i'm telling you also, it's going to be very hard to convince paul ryan or anyone else to put their name? >> still ahead on "morning joe" -- >> basically in this primary hillary's opponent has spent more time running against me than he has against the bush record. and a fair amount of time running against president obama. sometimes when we ought to be debating, hillary's opponent can raise more money just by saying anybody that attacks me is part of the establishment. first of all, a disagreement is not an attack. we all have a right to disagree. i think calling it party

establishment may be affected when people are alienated but it's insulting. >> that may be, but 77% of wisconsin voters said they want someone with political experience and the same voters handed bernie sanders a big win. hillary clinton joins us live as her campaign looks ahead to new york. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. owen! hey kevin. hey, fancy seeing you here. uh, i live right over there actually. you've been to my place. no, i wasn't...oh look, you dropped something. it's your resume with a 20 dollar bill taped to it. that's weird. you want to work for ge too. hahaha, what? well we're always looking for developers who are up for big world changing challenges like making planes, trains and hospitals run better. why don't you check your new watch and tell me what time i should be there. oh, i don't hire people. i'm a developer. i'm gonna need monday off. again, not my call. i've heard it all.

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joining us now legendary. >> legendary. >> one, two, three, legendary. >> columnist and msnbc contributor, mike barnacle. let's turn to the democrats now. bernie sanders was dominant all over wisconsin beating hillary

clinton in all of the three states 72 counties. as we mentioned it's sanders sixth straight victory, and it means he's now won 15 states to clinton's 18. still, because of her massive advantage among super delegates, clinton's grip on the nomination remains a tight one but sanders appeared undeterred by the fact when he emerged at his victory party in wyoming and summed up the state of his campaign with a single word or a few. >> let me say a word -- well, maybe two words, i don't know, about what momentum is all about. momentum is starting this campaign 11 months ago and the media determining that we were a fringe candidacy. momentum is starting the campaign 60 to 70 points behind secretary clinton.

momentum is that within the last couple of weeks there have been national polls which have had us one point up or one point down. >> boy, i tell ya what. that is an extraordinary story. >> it is. >> bernie sanders. just extraordinary story. i think though the question is, mike barnacle, it's going to have an impact in the end. >> bernfully sanders? >> bernie sanders. it's kind of like, you know, you had sanders and cruz both winning big, big victories last night. both were cited but does it change the game in the end? >> probably not. hillary clinton is going to go in with a wide delegate lead. she already has a wide delegate lead. chipping away at this, bernie sanders has won 16 contests. hillary clinton has won 20. at some point hillary clinton has to put bernie sanders away and do it relatively soon. >> i think there is an impact. it has been made clear by bernie sanders, whether he -- you know,

for some reason makes it through this incredible challenge ahead of him or not, i think the message is clear that there is an issue that really is pervasive across the country that people are needing to hear hillary clinton answer to. >> here's what's interesting. >> that's income inequality and all the other issues. >> here's what's interesting, willie geist. you have the candidates, donald trump, bernie sanders both seen as being weak on substance. bernie sanders revealed so yesterday in the new yo"new yory news" article. won by 13 percentage points yesterday. people want change and if bernie sanders doesn't know all of the details, they don't seem to be deterred by that. y that. they think he's going to be a change agent. they think there's a general feeling that if a guy like bernie gets to washington or trump they'll surround themselves -- >> they'll move in the direction -- >> bernie will move in the

direction his supporters want him to move. >> domestic policy they move but -- >> with a message. >> you showed that math last night. he won by 13 points and only three delegates. >> i know. >> was his advantage there. there are a couple of warnings. young voters again, he won 80% of young voters and also her honest and trustworthy on exit polling, terrible. what is donald trump criticized for? he's criticized for two things. one, the fact that people don't think he tells the truth. he disconnect the from the truth. he disconnected from the reality of the truth and the facts.

when you look at the pictures and bernie sanders rally. the democrats said literally it is a contest between yesterday, hillary clinton, and tomorrow represented by a 74-year-old socialist. >> we'll speak with hillary clinton in just a few moments. stay with us on "morning joe." kept me on track.

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coming up, hillary clinton says she's been a proud democrat all her life but all of a sudden bernie sanders who was an independent since the primary has won six con stess of the past seven. the former secretary of state joins us from chappaqua, new york. she describes how she's going to win the math. that's next. this is 100% useful for a 100% fresh mouth. what's it like to not feel 100% fresh? we don't know. we swish listerine®. as do listerine® users. the very people we studied in

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democratic opponent. let's bring in from layer ramie wyomi wyoming. your caucus is this saturday. what's going on inside the sanders campaign in terms of strategy? >> reporter: meek car, good morning. bit of a celebratory atmosphere at the fairfield inn and suites when the sanders campaign came off the kind of victory that, frankly, they feel like they needed. double digit victory. one that they needed. if anything surpassed expectations for the size of this win in wisconsin. you heard bernie sanders up on stage talking about momentum. that, of course, is what they need to matter going forward because, frankly, the delegate math is still pretty difficult for them. they may have won by 14 or so points here in wisconsin. they feel like they had some

still remaining so it's just a tricky math scenario for sanders. so all eyes are going to turn to new york. you're going to see bernie sanders essentially camp out in new york city for these next couple of weeks. he's going to campaign upstate. he's going to campaign in some of the states ahead. he's going to philadelphia today but they're planning a series of major events in new york city. i remember when we were talking last week about those 18,000 people who showed up in the bronx for him, you can expect more of that, more pictures like that, more of the center of the media universe seeing the tens of thousands of people that come out to these bernie sanders rallies. they're planning one for washington square park. they're trying to set expectations a little bit. i talked to a couple of his top aids who say, you know, hillary clinton beat obama in new york by a ton. if we come close we're doing well. the reality is they do need to show that they can win in states like new york. this is going to be tough for

him, but it's going to be a wild ride. we haven't seen a democratic primary like this in new york matter in so much zbliem casey hunt, thank you so much. we should tell you senator sanders will join us here on set this friday. it should be interesting to see how he lays the groundwork for new york. >> well, and just how intense this fight is going to be over the next couple of weeks. mark halpern, you were talking about the tabloids, talking about the big events that bernie was going to have. going to be a hard couple of weeks possibly for hillary clinton, but the first shot actually came from the daily news. >> this interview. >> this interview and then of course greeting bernie sanders in new york. bernie sanders sandy hook shame siding with gun makers against the newtown lawsuits. >> he turned up on both. >> the tabloid culture is not what it once was in the city. back when we had the contested

primary in '92 you had the new york, daily post, news day all vibrant in a newspaper war. the daily news is pretty pro hillary clinton newspaper at this point so sanders slipping up with them is horrible for him. >> talk about the slipup. we haven't talked about it today. >> he did an editorial board with them which they published yesterday, the day before in which he was unable to answer a bunch of questions about not only foreign affairs, national security, but about regulation of wall street. >> yeah. >> and the clinton people are very -- very interested in publicizing it, but it does expose a part of the weakness of his candidacy. he is at a much lower standard than she is. when he gets scrutiny he can't live up to it. >> mike, how about the daily news interview. >> very tough if you're a sanders advocate. as mark alluded to, the back and forth questioning between the daily news editorial panel and senator sanders, they repeatedly

asked him. you want to break up the big banks, how would you go about doing it? what would happen? he had no clear answer on that. he had no clear answer on several foreign affairs questions. he had the wrong answer on the gun lobby, on gun manufacturers. pretty devastating indictment. >> john, do you consider it devastating as well? >> yeah. he's a united states senator so on issues of both domestic affairs, which are obviously central to his campaign and foreign affairs, he's aspiring to be the commander in chief, you would like to think at the beginning he would have it but by this point in the campaign he should be able to talk about all of those questions. there were many where he basically punted. he said, i don't have an opinion on that. i'm not qualified to judge that. those phrases coming out of your mouth at this point are not impressive. >> no. back now to republicans. gop primary voters in wisconsin say the prospect of a donald trump presidency inspires both

more excitement and more fear than the rest of his republican rivals. according to the nbc news exit polls, about a quarter of gop primary voters say they're excited about trump. at the same time, 38% say they're scared about what trump would do as president. by comparison, just 13% say they're excited about the idea of ted cruz as president. 12% say they're scared. this is something drump could work with. i mean, could really look at these exit polls and say how can i address? >> i think all the candidates can work with it. people that are suggesting now that -- >> i don't think -- >> the general election is baked already. the cake is baked for the general election, it's nonsense sickal. you look at just how bad some of the polls were for wisconsin. they couldn't predict what was going to happen the next day. i mean, we had polls that showed hillary clinton basically tied with bernie sanders. we had a poll that showed donald trump up 10 points.

another one -- i mean, most people thought it was going to be four to five points. those polls were way off so you start talking about general election polls, it's just too early to tell. >> yeah, but maybe the most critical element of the candidacy for the presidency in the short run and the long run is message discipline. >> yes. >> does donald trump have the message discipline to stick with what he's going to say on a particular day or in the past he's gone off on several different directions and as, you know, the candidacy, does he have the message discipline? >> guess what, no images of donald trump being angry, no images of him saying something that was way off message. you had a statement not even from donald trump but from his spokesperson. kind of the way the game's played. >> maybe he's starting to bend a little bit to the rules in that game. >> he has a great opportunity in the next two weeks. this is not just home court advantage but home state. trump opponents say it will be very tough to keep him below 50 and it's very tough to keep him

from winning the lions share of the delegates here. he can use this opportunity, not that he has trouble getting the attention, can he use the national media to rehabilitate himself punctuated by what will be a big win. >> statements, policy, et cetera, et cetera. let me ask you, john highly mei why don't we be reflective. are we being too tough when we say there's no way he's ever going to beat a republican nominee? >> probably too tough. if we get to a contested convention, things really are up for grabs. unchartered territory. as mark suggested earlier in the show, ted cruz has shown a lot of it and has been impressive in terms of the operation he's put together, delegate wrangling. he'll be among the potential nominees in that wide open atmosphere in cleveland if that's where we get, but i do think, you know, some of the

establishments lingering, long standing dislike for senator cruz will make him -- will make it a hard sell for him if what a contested convention is about is bringing around the establishment and bringing around the establishment on the grounds of lekt electability will be a hard sell for ted cruz. >> i don't think he doesn't have the capacity to win the nomination, i think there are some forces that are working against him begrudgingly. it's amazing howell donald trump has done despite all that's against him and the onslaught of massive negative media coverage. there's all this talk about oh, he gets all the media coverage, he gets all the air times. he's been slammed more than any candidate that i can even imagine unless i'm wrong. >> i mean, you know, there will be a study at some point since people have been obsessing in the first sort of frame of this primary process about how much media time he got. i would love -- i can't wait till they measure positive versus negative. i would certainly guess over the past month -- >> it's been pretty rough. >> -- if there's any

presidential candidate that's got more negative attention than donald trump -- >> but i think if ted cruz is pushed towards the nomination by the forces that hate trump, i think those forces will have shot themselves in the foot. i think cruz is more for them to fear than they know and trump actually is more malleable and workable than they know. >> the biggest question in the republican race right now is are the delegates more culturally like the grassroots or are they more culturally like elites and the establishment. >> right. >> the latter. are they going to go with cruz because they'll figure cruz can help them hold the senate. >> or paul ryan. >> we're going to sneak in another break here. still ahead, former secretary of state and the front-runner for the democratic nomination, hillary clinton joins us. keep it right here. ♪ ♪

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yes, ge makes powerful machines. but i'll be writing the code that will allow those machines to share information with each other. i'll be changing the way the world works. (interrupting) you can't pick it up, can you? go ahead. he can't lift the hammer. it's okay though! you're going to change the world. your question was. >> your relationship to the president. >> that's a good question. >> do you think hillary clinton has an advantage? >> well, let me be very straight about this. this president is -- will go down in history as one of the smartest. he is also incredibly disciplined and focused. you take it for granted -- >> smart. >> smart. brilliant. but, you know, you're around the media every single day, you have the opportunity to say dumb things. he december it veoes it very, v.

he came back to vermont to campaign for me in 2006. i worked on his elections in 2008 and 2012 and, you know, just was in the oval office a couple of months ago. we have a very positive, friendly relationship. is he closer to hillary clinton? i suspect. >> that was senator bernie sanders in an interview with supporter spike lee. and joining us from chappaqua, new york, democratic presidential candidate, hillary clinton. >> welcome home! you get to be home for two weeks. >> i can't believe it. i am so excited to be in new york. >> that's got to be a relief. >> sleeping in my own bed. >> i know. to be able to sleep in your own bed has to be kind of a nice added benefit after all these months. let me ask you a couple quick questions. we're going to ask about wisconsin in a second but we've been talking about bernie sanders' "new york daily news" interview. i want to start with that. ask you in light of the interview, in light of the questions he had problems with, do you believe this morning that

bernie sanders is qualified and ready to be president of the united states? >> well, i think the interview raised a lot of really serious questions and i look at it this way. the core of this campaign has been breakup the banks and it didn't seem in reading his answers that he understood exactly how that would work under dodd frank, exactly who would be responsible, what the criteria were and, you know, that means you can't really help people if you don't know how to do what you are campaigning on saying you want to do. >> so is he -- is he -- >> there are other -- >> is he qua-- i know there are areas where he came up short and the interviews were having to repeat questions. the question, i'm serious, if you weren't running today and you looked at bernie sanders, would you look and say, this guy is ready to be president of the united states? >> well, i think he hasn't done his homework and he's been talking for more than a year about doing things that he

obviously hadn't really studied or understood and that does raise a lot of questions. what that goes to is for voters to say can he deliver, can he help people, can he help our economy. >> what do you think? >> obviously i think i'm by far the better choice. >> do you think he is qualified and do you think he is capable to deliver on the things he is promising to all these democratic voters? >> let me put it this way, joe. i think that what he has been saying about the core issues in his whole campaign doesn't seem to be rooted in an understanding of either the law or the practical ways you get something done. i will leave it to the voters to decide who of us can do the job

that the country needs, who can do all aspects of the job, both on the economic domestic issues and on national security and foreign policy. >> so, secretary clinton, clearly some of the exit polls last night and also the bernie sanders movement, these rallies that get these tens of thousands of people, of course there's a question as to whether or not they show up at the polls, but he's been doing well so far. how important are the members of the bernie sanders movement as you move forward and you close this gap between you and him completely and rule him out as your opponent and win the nomination, how important is it to attract those voters? how do you intend to do that? >> well, i think it's really important, and i do intend to reach out. i think we're in a very good position. he had a good night last night and i give him credit for that, but i'm still significantly ahead in the popular vote, about 2.5 million more votes than he

has. significantly ahead in the delegate count, which is something that really is what's going to matter at the end. i remember back in 2008 i had a series of victories but, you know, president obama had an insurmountable lead and it stayed that way, but at the end of it i said, look, we are going to join together to elect barack obama president. i made that very clear. i endorsed him. i nominated him. i told my delegates that they should support him and i'm hoping to unify the democratic party at the end be of this process when i have been able to clearly achieve the nomination. >> you know, i was watching an interview that you did with katie couric, i think it was 1992, and you were saying some of the same things you are saying now, especially when it pertains to breaking down barriers, especially for women. when you look at the young women -- >> right. >> -- and the young people who

are all going toward bernie, how do you attract them and why haven't you been able to so far? because you have been saying -- you have had a message that would resonate with them. >> look, i think it's exciting to be in effect protesting. i remember i did that a long time ago when i was in my 20s, and i totally get the attraction of this. and all the research that i have seen about who is supporting senator sanders, a lot of the young people like both of us, they really like me, they admire what i've done, what i stand for and they really, really like him. so i'm not as worried as the numbers might show about how he has attracted so many young people because i think that it is important to bring them into the process, and i give him a lot of credit for doing that. my argument basically is, look, we are electing a president and a commander in chief. we are electing the democratic

party standard bearer to go up against whoever the republicans wind up nominating and we really need to be sure that we elect someone who can walk into that oval office on january 20th, 2017, and start making decisions about people's lives and livelyhoods and when folks look at that, i feel very confident both in the nominating process and in the general election. >> so is it time for bernie sanders to reach the same conclusion, the same very difficult conclusion that you had to reach in 2008, that i made my point, i talked a good fight but now if i go forward, it's going to hurt the democratic party? is it time for bernie sanders to end his campaign, unite behind you so you can focus on donald trump or ted cruz? >> joe, i'm the last person who would tell anybody to walk away from a campaign because i remember very well, and i think

you commented on this quite a bit, people telling me not to go to the next contest, not to make my case. >> yes, and they were -- they were actually telling you that when you were winning states by 30 points. >> i know. >> pull up the stakes. that was quite a year. >> that's the double standard in full flower, so i'm well aware of that. i appreciate it. back in those days you were one of my biggest defenders, that if i wanted to keep going i definitely should. >> right. >> so i feel the same way. i think it's up to senator sanders. i'm going to keep making my case, keep getting the delegates i need because even last night i moved forward with delegates that i need. i'm excited about campaigning in new york and then on to pennsylvania and the other states. i think what you saw in the "new york daily news" raises questions for voters and the front page of the news which is one of my biggest contrasts with senator sanders, that he would place gun manufacturers' rights and immunity from liability

against the parents of the children killed at sandy hook. it is just unimaginable to me. so we have a lot to talk about. we're going stay on the issues. we're going to draw the contrasts. i'm excited about being able to really concentrate on making my case here in new york. >> so there's a young woman who works for me who you have her vote, emily. she's obsessed with you, secretary clinton, and actually that's why i was looking at old video. she was inspiring me to really take a close look at you over 10, 20, 30 years and all the different roles that you've had. how do you go -- i think the one area where bernie sanders is just pounding away, he makes a good point, is about income inequality, the big banks. he beautifully kind of creates a circle that actually brings criminal justice reform into the message and people are really responding to that. and in some areas some may say you have a trust issue with that. how do you bridge that? how do you really gain the trust

in those areas and don't get mad at me, but does elizabeth warren. >> oh, my lord. >> does elizabeth warren have a role in a clinton white house. >> she can't get through an interview. >> she has a vehicle. >> bowe th of us really admire . i look forward to working with her closely. i'm going to say this. i understand the argument that's made, but i want people to look at it from my perspective. i have a record on these issues. i don't know where anybody else was, but i was calling for closing loopholes. i was calling for holding ceos accountable. i was saying it directly to wall street back in '06, '07, '08. i now have what everybody who's looked at it from an independent perspective concluded, the single best, most comprehensive top to bottom plan to make sure what happened to us in '07-'08 doesn't happen again. the fact that i have a record, i have a plan and i a