>> one other trend. i told you about the democratic governors, fractured parties, donald trump does better. not so good in the big ten states. minnesota, iowa, ohio, i don't think that's a coincidence. >> calm people. >> midwesterns, not so crazy about those new yorkers. chris will be back tomorrow with more "mtp daily." home opener tomorrow. just a hint. "with all due respect" starts right now. i'm mark halperin. >> i'm john helemann. with all due respect to donald trump, i bet you're wishing national teflon day, which is today, had arrived a little earlier. happy wisconsin, rearview

mirror, sports fans. three new yorkers, walk into a primary, we'll see how that joke ends. after the front-runners were defeated by double digits in the badger state yesterday, all the candidates turning their sights to this empire state trying to play up their hometown roots. hillary clinton did a pair of cable news interviews, at morning joe where she took some jabs at bernie sanders, and the later with cnn, where hillary clinton's approach was anything but subtle. >> campaign manager jeff weaver said something interesting, inflammatory, on our air here, saying that you know, the clinton campaign, secretary clinton, they need to be careful not to destroy the democratic party, merely in pursuit of her own ambition to be president. very strong words. your response to that idea. >> well, i mean, it's just

ludicrous on the face of it. you know, i have been campaigning for democrats, fundraising for democrats, recruiting democrats to run and win for a really long time. i think about 40 years. i understand they're getting anxious. i get that. but they need to be thoughtful about what they do say. because at the end of the day, we need a democratic president. he has been campaigning now for a year on his core message of inequality, which i absolutely agree with. and i put forth my own plans. in the interview, it seemed unclear as to whether he understood how -- i think was a little bit, you know, surprised that there didn't seem to be a lot of substance to what he was saying. >> so mark, she went after him hard, harder than i think she has gone after him. do you think she is behaving this way, taking him on more

aggressively because she is worried or senses that his jugular is exposed and she can get it. >> she is not worried. she knows from his campaign's view, she will be the nominee. she's frustrated. she wants him to stop winning. he is not going to get out of the race if he keeps winning primaries and caucuses. she is trying to go after him, to have him stop winning. not because she is worried he'll get more delegates, but because she wants him out of the race so she can focus on the general election. >> there are times campaigns center around remarks made by their rivals, and political posturing. if you know hillary clinton, she is the policy wonk she is, she is personally offended by how some of sanders' responses were. she is like i can't believe this guy, and the double standard we talked about yesterday on the show. if i answered these questions this way, i would be torn apart. i think that's seeping through

here. in addition to frustration, she is amazed and probably appalled by how weak sanders was on substance. >> if he can beat her in new york, it will go to california. >> oh, yeah. >> hillary clinton will have gained no advantage. they'll go to june no matter what. she doesn't want that. she wants him out of the race. she is trying to take advantage of what she sees as weakness, and she also knows, i know, at least one of her advisors know, and she probably does too, new york is a place where if you aren't playing offense, you're playing defense. >> for sure. >> they want to go after sanders on the looming debate and the new york media. >> i do think that it is the case that they know this will be a competitive state, but unlike in wisconsin, where they said early, they thought they were in trouble and being honest about it, i think the extent to which they think it's competitive, they're overstating. they're confident that they're going to beat him here and she

is going for the jugular. speaking of bernie sanders, the vermont senator pulled off a big win in wisconsin. 57% to 43%. it got him 47 delegates. she took 36. his victory speech and today, appearing on television. sanders campaign saying they've got the momentum and secure the nomination this weekend, while the clinton campaign saying the delegate math makes it improbable. going forward, if you were making the best case for sanders being the democratic nominee, how does it play out? >> he does win here in new york, despite i think she is the front-runner here for sure. and that that momentum out of wisconsin and new york carries him forward to surprising victories like pennsylvania, where the race is actually surprisingly close, maybe in new jersey, i'm not saying they're high likelihood, but the best case scenario for him. ride the momentum and win the states and get close enough in

the pledged delegates he can start making the argument he is a better candidate in the general election than trump or cruz. >> you know what sinatra said, if he can beat her here, he can beat her any where. he is not going to get out of the race, but he needs relatively big wins, starting with new york, and he needs some prominent super delegates to express doubts about her. mythical matchups against the republicans, and then he probably needs another intervening event. something with the e-mail investigation, something with the clinton family. something else that causes democrats to say wait a minute. maybe we should go to the convention like the republicans are doing, and have this out as a family in philadelphia. >> if you're playing it out from sanders' point of view, if he didn't close to pledged delegates on the super delegate front, is that what they're designed to do to keep someone who is unelectable. right now in most head to head

polls, he is performing better than her against republican rivals. >> some cases substantially. >> if you're making the case from his side, in theory, that's a power of argument. hey, look, i'm better than she is in a general election. >> morning joe interview, when joe asked hillary clinton should bernie sanders get out, she said well, i remember when people forced me to get out. i tried to do. i was doing well. i didn't want to get out. so rather than trying to force him out, as long as he keeps winning, she can't argue he should be out of the race with explicitness. >> after his whopping win in wisconsin, marginalizing john kasich, set up a one-on-one with him and donald trump. cruz was in the bronx, after his victory speech last night. he stood before the new york media to unveil anti-trump framing for the new york primary and beyond. >> donald can always be counted

on to take the high road and to demonstrate class. if he wants to engage in insults, he is welcome to do so. he gets very angry when the voters reject him. the day before yesterday, donald trump promised a quote, big victory in wisconsin. and not only did he not get a big victory, but the men and women of wisconsin resoundingly rejected his campaign and the reason is simple. donald has no solutions to the problems we're facing. he likes to yell and scream and insult and curse. if you want to know what liberal democratic values are, follow donald trump's checkbook. he has been funding these policies. >> so mark, you were there, in the bronx today. you saw that event today. i'm going to ask you the same questions. given everything going on, what is the best case scenario now in the long run overall for ted cruz? >> he is emphasizing both his anti-trump message, but also the

economy. he has got to become a poplous. he says bernie sanders is right. the rich have gotten too rich under barack obama. needs an economic message, anti-trump message, and he needs to win. he needs to win and keep winning in some states. wisconsin cannot be the one. northeast for the most part in the next month, it's going to be tough for him to win, but he has to do surprisingly well and win. >> he has to win indiana. >> i think if he can somehow pull off a win in pennsylvania, rick santorum won statewide, it's not impossible, win a couple of those states, win a bunch of the most conservative congressional districts in california, be able to force a contested convention, and then with the strength of his organization, put himself in a position where he can say the party is rejecting donald trump. he is not a real conservative.

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after last night, we haven't heard much from donald trump. a spokesman, a tweet came earlier today. it said quote, it's so great to be back home. he plugged his big rally in long island. a man who built an empire, pivots here in the empire state, polls have him leading with more than double the numbers of the two remaining rivals, kasich and cruz. john, should kasich and cruz do today, kasich done during the week, campaigning here in new

york? >> they're in different places, kasich and cruz. there are some districts, and we'll talk about this more in detail. the rules are that if you get over 50 and the others get below 20, you can get all the delegates. i think john kasich, if i were him, delegate accumulation business as a wise person pointed out, i would move on and start thinking about rhode island, pennsylvania, spend my limited resources in those places. i think ted cruz, there are places he can fight here and pick up some delegates. >> it's a tough choice. if you don't campaign here, you're left out of the narrative. but trump will kill in this state, barring some change, i don't care what kind of trump slump there might be. he'll maybe win every delegate from the state. >> maybe. >> so to come here, you're not going to spend money on broadcast television, tar guege the individual districts, neatly aligned with media markets, so i think they'll be here some, but man, trump is in a really strong

position. private polling that shows him well above 50, and it is spread out across the state. he is not a city candidate. in fact, the city is some of the weakest. >> we asked one of our crack staff, the political reporter, generally, the places trump would be weakest are the places most highly educated, a lot of those places are in manhattan, and cruz evangelical will not play particularly well. it might just make sense, in fact, to just say donald is a new york guy, and have cruz and kasich get the hell out of here. >> cruz and kasich both won their home states and made a big deal out of it. i think trump will get at least 50 statewide. do television interviews, try to make a case. >> stay in the conversation. >> exactly. but i think they're making a mistake to come here and pick off delegates. the story in two weeks will be trump rump.

>> we all know the trump campaign -- cruz campaign is sophisticated about this thing. whether we'll see cruz do things, where he goes, basically they'll fly and get out of here. >> the narrative, momentum, and delegate game, it is a zone here for anybody -- >> all right, after ted cruz won in wisconsin, it's becoming increasingly likely we're looking at a contested convention come july in cleveland. trump and cruz, not particularly the most popular guys in washington, d.c., and as the party braces for a tense week out there in rock and roll city, some in the establishment are looking for a white knight. this morning, the editor of the weekly standard, bill kristol was asked about this very question on morning joe. >> two or three republicans that could, if not paul ryan, could get in there? do we go back to the jebs, t

marcos? >> no, i don't think so. statesman like type. none of it is quite right, you know. >> who is this person? >> none of them are quite right. if john kyle, condi rice more conservative, you know what, this guy is or woman is a seriously -- it's hard to come up with a name. >> bill kristol does not want donald trump to win at all. like anyone else, they're praying for a contested convention. why are they have a hard time coming up with the answer they're begging for. they want the scenario, they need a white knight, why can't they name them? >> it's hard. they've ran and failed. they're out. a lot of people think that. you need to be someone who the establishment will like and the tea party will like, and who trump and cruz, if not

themselves, at least some of their forces would say yeah, that person would be really good. i've been racking my brain. i brought up dick cheney, i was laughed at. bush 41. to me, it's ryan. kristol. >> did you say bush 41. >> yeah. ryan is the answer. nobody else. >> i don't know why it's so hard to answer that. for a lot of republicans, i don't know why bill kristol has a hard time with it. paul ryan is the likely answer. the only one. >> the ryan people will beat me up and say it's not going to happen, but for the same reasons he was a consensus choice for speaker, he has some moderate positions on immigration, et cetera. >> the dude is really conservative. he is really conservative. he is really conservative. >> paul ryan would go into a general election, ready. >> right. >> picking up from a standing

start at the convention. >> look, not only that he has run a national campaign before, he was actually for a lot of conservatives, he was reassuring when romney put him on the ticket back in 2012. he is tested in that sense, and he would have gone -- he could have a fresh start without having to be totally green, right, in terms of a national campaign. i think he is the ideal answer. >> with all due respect to priebus, ryan said he was not interested, until the moment when if there a deadlock, they turn to the man from janesville. coming up, we kickback into cruz control, talking to nbc's hallie jackson, about the cruz future, right after this. were born here. sending them into the wild wouldn't be noble.

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as we mentioned, ted cruz took his post wisconsin victory lap, to the bronx. shifting his focus and message to the april 19th new york primary in two weeks. in any other city, this would have been a simple event. candidate goes to the restaurant, meets with local leaders, takes some questions. but in gotham, nothing is simple. >> god bless you, we support you.

>> security is right behind you. >> poorest congressional district in the united states. it was, as you can see a media madhouse. he had to push through a warm of media. shouted, reporters got shoved, questions in multiple languages. i got hit in the head with a camera. par for the course in new york. here with us now, one of the reporters who also deserves combat pay, hallie jackson, who covers cruz. >> for the record, not my camera that hit you in the head. >> so you say. >> allegedly. >> one of your many cams that was there almost hit me in the head. so you asked about what i was going to ask about if i had been called on, which is cruz talking about new york values as a negative thing. how does a guy who trashes new york, including today a little bit, mostly trash new york

liberals. >> that's what it is. >> appealing to new yorkers. >> for two and a half months, you said it mark and you heard it from him today. he is shifting a little bit, right. he is calling it liberal democratic values that just so happen to be here in new york. so he is trying to make the case to conservatives in places like western new york. which is another place he talked about. did you notice that? he said, hey, people in western new york, they get what i'm talking about. it's the same argument that he made against donald trump months ago and talked about pennsylvania, which is another place he wants to go and compete. the campaign sees this as the second phase in its strategy now, that cruz has been able to show with wins in iowa and utah, he can bring together the evangelical vote, the conservative vote and they need to show and they're hoping wisconsin proves that, they can pick up moderates, conservatives, bring together the 60% they say of the republican party who wants to try to stop donald trump. >> so cruz's people are smart,

right, a smart campaign. >> well organized. >> well organized. we've got a situation we talked about earlier on the show. the congressional districts that have the highest education level, and therefore, maybe less prone to the trump message, are basically in the five bureaus, right around here. so these are not particularly hospitable areas. what does cruz do to unlock the demographic and geographic riddle that is new york. >> first acknowledging as the campaign said to me, this a bumpy road for ted cruz. i don't i think they think they're going to beat donald trump. the strategy seems to be, number one, play in geographic locations. he'll be in albany tomorrow, up state, focus on the areas, but also look at places that have a smaller number of republicans, conservatives within the district and then use that organization that you're talking about to drill down and get out the vote efforts and do that

man-to-man coverage that the campaign likes to do to turn those conservatives out to vote for cruz. >> he talks in wisconsin about jobs. that was one of the three buzzwords. today, he mentioned unlocking the potential of the economy. is he saying anything specific on what he would do. >> he is drilling down the message when it comes to, we saw it am wisconsin, right, you're right, he had a whole new slogan. you saw it a little bit, job security and freedom. he is using that, it was a move for him in wisconsin to appeal to some of that industrial midwest industrial conservative. now, i think what you're seeing is a move to coalition based campaigning. so you're going to see him talking to -- you saw him for the women for ted cruz event with heidi. >> does he ever talk about his tax plan. >> yeah he absolutely does. he does all the time on the stump. flat tax is something that you hear, not just from cruz, but people who like him. i spoke with somebody recently,

back in wisconsin, hey, i like trump and cruz, i like -- but the issue of taxes is really important to me. i want a flat tax. my producer and i said to him well you know that's ted cruz's policy. >> did he mention the flat tax in his speech last night. >> in his speech last night? >> i didn't hear it. >> let me pull up it up on my phone. >> without any specifics about what you do to bring about jobs. >> i think you're going to see more of that moving forward. again, once he did the bio graphical message, you'll see him talk about this more but aiming the message members of the african-american community, hispanic community, like you saw him doing in the bronx today. >> some discussion a few weeks ago about the notion that cruz and kasich my covertly collaborating because of the nature of the challenge that they face.

now of course cruz is saying i want john kasich out of the race. is there any chance they'll end up working together? >> i'm told no. but the bottom line is when you have the same goal, which is not to let donald trump get the nomination, you'll get to the same end if you end up there. what i found out interesting, they only started modeling out kasich in the last couple of weeks. the fact that he is still in the race is different than they expected as far as this point we're at on the campaign. >> hallie jackson. >> is that all we get? >> you're always welcome. the show is only an hour. coming up, i thought you were going to call me buba, and other great moments in campaigning history. you'll love this clip. stay tuned, right after this.

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you? >> i'm all right. i'm disappointed you didn't call me buba.

>> it's an honorable term where i come from. >> southern for mensch. that was bill clinton and don imis. helping him nab his nomination, the empire state is the key for hillary clinton's campaign, just like it was for her husband. here to talk about the state of the race, two native new yorkers, and columnist for the new york post and adam, new york times los angeles bureau chief, but tab lloloid reporter here iw york city. convey to anyone who does not understand what a competitive new york primary on the democratic side, the republican side, try to convey to people what that's like. >> i think it would -- primary, people like me, new yorkers talking about it, and think it's not true. it is crazy. new york invented 24/7 before

there was 24/7, except for london, where you have competitive newspaper culture. you have some larger than life reporters, who really know how to make news. who view their role as trying to provoke, prod candidates, and you also have players in the form as mario cuomo, who like to meddle a little, like we're seeing with bill de blasio. i think clinton, by the end of the process, liked what happened in new york. as it was going on, as he had been heckled and everything else, he wasn't having a new york kind of time. >> i've got to play devil's advocate. but like i went to this cruz event in the bronx. there was no reporters, there were three questions, two of them were from national reporters. in my day, if two national reporters tried to dominate

after the big win last night there would have been a revolt. i don't see a tabloid, isn't this toned down, slimmed down new york primary as compared to 1992? >> well, sure. absolutely. absolutely. you also have local talk radio in new york in the '90s that you don't have now. but i think there is a story that you're missing here. h this is the first time in our lifetimes that a republican primary is going to matter at all in any way, shape or form. now, i think listening, you think trump has it in the bag. but remember, there are 400,000 republican registered republicans in new york city, to whom nobody has ever made the slightest gesture, ever, ever, we're not talking about, i mean, except for running for congress, no one has ever looked at them,

no one has ever talked to them. >> mccain and bush a little bit. >> a little bit. but from 2012, you have districts, five, you know, congressional districts in which 3,000 people voted in the republican primary. i mean, 3,000 people. you know, the possibilities of playing retail politics games here on the part of trump, cruz and kasich, that's never happened before in new york. >> adam, from 3,000 miles away, but watching closely, what do you think bernie sanders potential is to make mischief for hillary clinton in the next two weeks here. >> i think it's high. i think one of the reasons is because the new york tabloid culture. they like stirring it up, sticking it to clinton. bernie sanders gets it. i think the other side, and this is important, you know, bill clinton -- excuse me, hillary

clinton and donald trump know the new york culture that we're talking about. i still think it exists. i think it's still early there. they know how to play it. that's going to matter a lot. we saw the shortfalls, not really getting it, when sanders did the daily news interview and what i would say in temperament remarks. he ran into arthur brown. if you've been around new york, those guys are legends, and maybe not getting up to the bronx like they used to, but they're still factors. they know their stuff. >> can i make a contrary argument, which is daily news, the daily news interview was a disaster for sanders, if you assume that the sanders voter cares about issues. this is the reverse mirror image of trump. they're not voting on issues. they are voting on one thing or

two things. they're voting on feeling screwed, pitch forking the banks. this guy can't be president, he doesn't know anything. he is babbling about nothing. and yet, here sanders is having one, you know, six straight. he just won a primary in wisconsin. he is polling 10 or 11 points behind hillary. >> that's the point, in the culture of the new york hot house media, maybe it doesn't deter sanders voters, but it gets hillary voters stoked up. >> that's the question. the question is how stoked are hillary supporters any where. in wisconsin last night, her voters, her voters in the exit polls said that 13% were enthusiastic about her being president. 13%. so i don't know that there is stoking. i don't know that they are stoked. that's the big question. >> i'll ask you both this question. i'll start with you adam. again, you're 3,000 miles away, but you covered hillary clinton

in this state. it's now a decade since she was elected statewide, elected twice, senator in 2000 and 2 oh 006. is she vulnerable here in a significant way? >> i would not assume, i think that's a great question. i would not assume for a second if i was in brooklyn that she has a hold. she has to work for it. the advantage as we were saying before, she lived through the campaign. she gets the culture, so she knows. in addition to winning with her husband, she has run two campaigns, so three campaigns. so she knows it. i don't think there is a hard connection among new york voters. there was for bill clinton and mario cuomo. if i had a choice, i would rather be her than bernie sanders in this culture that we're talking about. >> john, let me ask you this question, just as a matter of what you would do if you're

hillary clinton. bernie sanders will come here, he is going to have huge rallies, 15,000 people. he has done one like this. she will never have crowds like that. what does she do to counter the perception that bernie sanders will walk, show up in new york and be generating all this enthusiasm very visibly in front of the media capital of the world. >> i would do a lot of media. i would talk to every columnist, go on the brian lear show, exactly those, you know, sort of moderate to liberal voters in new york city who -- to remind them how they like her. i would, you know, and i would play that card. i think she also needs to boost her vote among african-americans. in some of these northern states, in wisconsin last night, it's not bad to get 71%, but in the south, she was getting 92% of the african-american vote. if she can get the number up,

she'll be solid. i don't think there is any relevant indication that she has that, you know, incredibly high percentage in the bank. >> we've got to go in a second. will we see trump ride the subway or eat a knisch before the primary. >> yes on subway, no on knisc. >> i say no on subway. knisch, maybe. >> use a fork? >> him, i don't know. he doesn't have high tastes. >> he does use a fork. please come back to new york, please, in the next few weeks. we need you here. >> thank you, john. >> please stay here. we need you here too. coming up, talking politics with tavis smiley. if you're watching us, you can listen to us on the radio on

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that a party standard bearer would find herself caught in a race that is far from over. the numbers are in her favor, but this race is, i think still bernie's -- i won't say it's bernie's to lose. that's putting too much on it. but i think that if he can pull up the upset in new york, we've got a fight on our hands. every other weekend, you cover this more than anybody, every other week, i keep going back and forth if we're going to have one or two contested conventions. i don't know what the answer to that is. >> part of the reason hillary clinton has built such a large delegate lead is because she did so well, particularly in the south, large african-american population, right. she has overperformed much better than he has with african-americans. do you think that's merited? is that earned on her part? >> some of it is. no doubt the clintons had a good

relationship, have had for many years with african-americans. some good and some bad in this. these are public servants, not perfect servants. michelle alexander wrote a piece that she doesn't deserve the black vote. clintons let african-americans down. bill clinton went to the naacp to apologize. black judges, any president prior to him. for that matter, all presidents combined i think prior to him, clinton still appointed more black judges. it is a good news/bad news story. some of it is merited. on the other hand, i don't like it. i don't like it when black voters are taken for granted or ignored by the other party. i think she learned the last time around, when you expect a co co cornnation, you find yourself in a dogfight this time around. >> president obama will be more aggressive, speaking on her behalf. how big a factor do you think he

can be in a general election, where his approval rating is, and he has become much to his annoyians a divisive figure? >> i don't know what his impact will be to the brilliant point you just made. the numbers are what they are. with the african-american vote, i have found that it's not an automatic conclusion that one can draw that just because a black person says vote for this person, that all black folk are going to do that. there is a huge difference, i feel like you guys already know this stuff of course, but there is a huge difference between barack obama being on the ballot and barack obama campaigning for somebody on the ballot. i think the clintons, these are smart people running her campaign. they have to know that there is automatically going to be a drop in the african-american turnout, just because this brother is not on the ballot. how much, how much that drop is going to be, i do not know. how much harder they have to

work to make sure the turnout is significant to push them over the top i don't know the answer to that. >> so bernie sanders is more in tune with the democratic base on a wide variety of issues than hillary clinton, and that's parts of why he has been able to generate so much enthusiasm. if you had been asked at the very beginning of the sanders campaign, listen, we know we're on the right side of the base, but we have a demographic problem, what should i do? what would have you advised him to do? how would have assessed what was obviously going to be a challenge for him. >> "the new york times" as you saw wrote a good piece the other day, some of the missteps in the sanders campaign. the article hit the nail on the head. they started too late. that would have been my advice. if you are not known by the african-american community, if you're trying to take on the person who thinks, again, she is the presumptive nominee, you better get out there and you better campaign like they vote in chicago, early and often. and that's what he didn't do. so what you see now, and i

think, you know, the story is pretty clear, had he gotten out earlier, he might have had better success with black voters who are obviously going to be key in this election, because on the issues john, on the issues, he is speaking right to where black voters live. he is speaking truth to power on the issues that matter, but hard to make up for lost time when people just don't know who you are. when the bets have been made and quite frankly, the depth of the political establishment has lined up behind secretary clinton. >> who would be a tougher candidate in your view, ted cruz on donald trump? >> i think both lead america in the wrong direction. if i'm the clinton campaign, i do not want to face donald trump. >> why. >> because the conventional wisdom left the train station. it's a wildcard. trump is unpredictable. >> tavis, thank you very much. new book tavis has out, "50 for your future, lessons from down the road." up next, ken goldstein and a

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the numbers, the numbers, the numbers from wisconsin are in. i'm talking about the millions of dollars spent by the campaigns on television ads in the badger state. we called in our political yoda, ken goldstein, to share some deep wisdom, who joins us from washington, d.c. ken, just let me ask you about a national question before we move to wisconsin. just where are we right now in terms of the ad wars, what has been spent? talk about the big number. >> so the big number is to date, $380 million has been spent on the presidential primaries on television advertising. $270 million on the democratic side. $110 million. follow the money, but if you followed the money here, you wouldn't necessarily find the winner, right, because the majority of dollars spent on the

republican side, or on or behalf two candidates aren't in the race any more, and donald j. trump, the leader has only spent $18 million on television advertising. >> let's look back, wisconsin, the two under dogs won. what was spending like there overall? >> so wisconsin, $8.4 million was spent on television advertising. $3.4 million on the democratic side. $5 million on the republican side. interestingly, going back to that national numbers for a second, overall, bernie has out spent hillary 59 million to 51 million. his advantage in wisconsin was more pronounced sanders spent $2.4 million on television, and the clinton campaign spent $1 million on television. more players more pregnafragmen the republican side. trump or not trump. trump spent $500,000 in

wisconsin. and not trump spent $4.5 million, not all of the not trump was anti-trump. some was pro cruz and pro kasich. but a big chunk of that was focused negatively on the donald. >> ken, was there any outside democratic money spent in wisconsin, or all the two campaigns? >> not only was there no outside money in wisconsin spent on behalf of the democrats, but basically been no outside money at all in the democratic race to date, whereas on the republican side, the majority of the spending has been outside money. >> big difference. >> big difference, yeah, absolutely. because as we keep talking about it, at least for me, it never gets old, candidates get a lot more for their buck than the outside groups do. >> so ken, we've got wisconsin in the rearview mirror, we've got the state we live in and love the most, new york, what is

the ad picture as we head into the primary two weeks from now? >> well, not much. as you may have noticed in the city that you know and love, things are a little pricier in gotham than they are in my former home state of wisconsin. on advertising buy in new york city would be 15 or 20 times more expensive than an advertising buy in milwaukee. so if the cruz campaign spent $1 million in wisconsin, they need to spend 15 or $20 million if they want to play with the same number of impressions in new york. so so far, we haven't seen any buy yet on the republican side. on the democratic side, sanders has a fairly modest buy of $670,000 and we just got word of an even more modest buy on the clinton side, not in new york city, mostly upstate, but only about $130,000 that she has placed. >> do you expect either parties

contest to have a lot of television advertising or just too expensive? >> well, i think it's the ultimate tell. i think you guys from talking a little bit before if you were the strategist for each of the campaigns, especially on the republican side, would you even play in new york, and how heavy would you play. and i have to believe that that are the decisions being made in the inside meeting in the cruz campaign or in the super pacs that are supporting him, because you can't play a little bit in new york. if you're going to go in with television, it's got to be a lot of money. it may just not be the best use of their buck. they may want to save their dollars for other primaries down the line. >> all right, ken goldstein, you are as always, pretty much a genius. happy to have you. when we come back, engage in some hypotheticals with a game we like to call engaging in hypotheticals, after this.

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now it's time for america's favorite game show. engaging in hypotheticals. >> all right, here's the thing. we're going to engage in a little hypothetical. you're given the opportunity to tell a candidate to go to the place that most exemplifies new york pizza. where would that be? >> saco's pizza on 54th and 9th avenue. don't eat it with a fork. eat it with a spoon. >> paul ryan becomes the nominee as the white knight. who does he pick as the running mate. >> not whoopie goldberg, certainly nikki haley, a person of color on the ticket to hopefully expand the republican base. >> ryan and hailey. he doesn't pick mitt romney, i'll tell you that.

head to bloomberg politics.com. until tomorrow, for mark and me, we have one word to say, the same word we always say, and that's sayonara. coming up "hardball" with chris matthews. the battle of new york. let's play "hardball." good evening, i'm chris matthews back in washington. in a few minutes, donald trump will speak for the first time since his double digit trouncing out in wisconsin last night. can he still present himself as a winner in november, after such a beating in april? can he convince the big shots in his party that it's better to live with him, as the presidential nominee than to die in the explosion should they reject him in cleveland. the polls light up the situation face bid republican leaders, a