e's ready, but our subaru legacy will be waiting for him. (vo) the longest-lasting midsize sedan in its class. the twenty-sixteen subaru legacy. it's not just a sedan. it's a subaru. this sunday, political "the hunger games" in the gop. ted cruz sweeps the delegates in colorado. >> i think we will go in with an overwhelming advantage. >> it looks more and more like we're headed to an open convention that could deny trump the nomination. the man trump just hired to save his campaign plus, look who got nasty this week. >> he hadn't done his homework. >> i don't believe that she is qualified. >> but is the damage done? joining me this morning, bernie sanders and new york city mayor bill de blasio, a key clinton supporter. also, ryan's hope. many republicans want paul ryan

to be their nominee. he says no. so, what's this about? >> let's have a battle of ideas. let's have a contest of whose ideas are better. >> if ryan doesn't want the nomination, why does his video look like a campaign ad to so many people? finally, kasich does the de deli, bernie eats pizza, hillary rides the subway. new york, new york. >> i would simply say to everyone, la jia. >> if you can pander there, you can pander anywhere. and joining me for insight and analysis this morning are matt bai of yahoo! news, msnbc's joy-ann reid, "the atlanta:00's" mollybaugh, and rich lowry of "the national review." welcome to sunday. it's "meet the press." >> announcer: from nbc news in washington, this is "meet the press" with chuck todd. >> good sunday morning. the bernie sanders winning streak keeps on keeping on. sanders won the wyoming caucuses yesterday. it's his seventh win in the last eight contests. but how byzantine is the delegate selection process for

democrats? hillary clinton actually wound up with more delegates out of wyoming than sanders. in just a few minutes, we'll get to the democratic race and worries that this week's nasty turn will only help republicans in november. bernie sanders and mayor bill de blasio of new york, a hillary clinton supporter, will join me. but we begin with a changing landscape in the republican race. from the start, donald trump has played it big -- make big speeches, draw big crowds and win big in big primaries, and then let the details take care of themselves. but the details aren't taking care of themselves. ted cruz is taking care of them, and he's piling up delegates in this byzantine process. this weekend in colorado, cruz won all 34 of colorado's available unbound delegates. he also had a big day gathering delegates in iowa, south carolina and virginia. it's just the latest development in this tortoise and hare race, where cruz is slowly gaining delegate by delegate on a trump campaign that's been sleeping on the job. >> when it comes to the grassroots, donald has a very

hard time competing. >> reporter: the stop trump movement is turning to a new kind of ground game, working to outorganize trump in the state-by-state battle for delegates. so far, it's working. trump was shut out at this weekend's colorado convention. >> ted cruz. >> ted cruz. >> for cruz. >> reporter: and just 1 of 25 delegates selected last sunday in north dakota said he plans to back trump. trump's colorado state delegate director started in his job on wednesday, after the previous director was fired. >> it's been like drinking from a fire hose. >> it's a very arcane system. they have land mines all over the place, and i think it's -- it is unfair. >> he has little margin for error. trump must win 61% of remaining delegates to clinch the 1,237 delegate majority he needs to avoid a contested convention. supporters dismissed questions about his organization's efforts in colorado. >> probably wouldn't carry the state anyway. you've got to -- you know, you fight the battles you can win. >> and trump is depending on a

big win in new york, where he's polling above 50%. >> it's great to be home. >> hoping to sweep the empire state's 95 delegates and completely shut out ted cruz. >> do you remember during the debate when he started lecturing me on new york values, like we're no good, like we're no good. >> luke-warm feelings about cruz have some stop trump establishment republicans dreaming of none of the above. >> liberals -- >> house speaker paul ryan fueled the speculation this week by releasing this campaign-style video. >> so, let's have a battle of ideas. let's have a contest of whose ideas are better. >> reporter: while trump dismisses any talk of campaign power struggles in public -- >> i have not heard anything about the inner fightings of a campaign. >> reporter: in private, trump's team is clearly worried, expanding the role of new hire paul manna for, a powerhouse trump brought in to be his convention manager. joining me now is paul manifort, a one-time delegate wrangler for

gerald ford and campaign manager for bob dole, who's been brought into this campaign to stop this delegate bleeding. welcome back to "meet the press." >> thank you. >> let me start with what a cruz official claimed to me this weekend, that there were 144 different delegate selection events yesterday in 11 states, and they were stunned that essentially outside of michigan, the trump campaign was nowhere. is that a fair assessment? >> first of all, alabama, they caucused this weekend, and we've got all of the committee spots, the convention committee spots have been assigned, in michigan, as you correctly said, where they made a real effort. they failed. and in fact, we wiped him out. he's got no committee appointments out of michigan. and in nevada, preview of coming attractions, clark county went overwhelmingly for donald trump, and they had the majority of the delegates to the state convention later in this process, and you're going to see ted cruz get skunked in nevada.

>> but you acknowledge that they've been outgunnin inning t trump campaign on the weekend events? >> i acknowledge that we weren't playing in colorado and they did. i acknowledge that they've taken an approach to some of the county conventions where they'd take them to the scorched earth policy and they don't care about the party, if they get what they want, they blow it up. that's not going to work. and in fact, it's all secondary games, because when you're talking about delegates, you have to distinguish between actual delegates or trojan delegates, which are people committed to support someone on the first ballot, regardless of who they're for. >> and you have been very outspoken as saying look, what cruz is doing is going to be moot because you're going to win this first ballot. in fact, you claim you will clinch this nomination by mid-may, that you won't need california to put you over the top. how does that happen? >> no, i didn't say we clinch it. i say we would be the presumptive nominee. >> which means you would have the numbers -- >> which means you'd see the path. >> okay. you won't be crossing the line in mid-may? >> we've got to go through to june. we've got to wait until the

process is done, but i'm confident. we have several ways through june 7th to go over 1,237. and you know, not counted in that at all are any of these unbound delegates who are getting selected, many of whom i feel pretty good about. >> now, look, there's been some talk about what's going on inside the campaign. are you running this campaign? is that the fairest way to look at it? >> donald trump is running this campaign and i'm working directly for donald trump, but i'm working with the whole team as well. and you know, a lot of what's being talked about is much ado about nothing. yes, there's a transition. it's a natural transition. trump was doing very well on a model that made sense, but now as the campaign has gotten to the end stages, the more traditional campaign has to take place, and trump recognized that and is now reaching out not just with me but with others as well that you'll start seeing come? >> now, donald trump has hired you because he says he needs an insider to help him, who's experienced in this, but some could argue it's been a long time since you've been a washington insider. you yourself have said that.

do you know these delegates? the process might be the same, but do you know these people? some people say no. >> you'd be surprised who's been following me over the last week, where they're from. do i know the 25, 30-year-old delegates? no. do i know the people who push buttons in a lot of these states? yes. but that's not even the point. there's a lot of residual support for donald trump out there that just hasn't been tapped, whether it me or somebody else. it's the process that matters. if you know how to use the process, the support is there. >> i want to talk about some of the methods you're going to use to try to cajole these delegates. let me play you something your former business partner roger stone has said and get you to react to it. >> we're going to have protests, demonstrations. we will disclose the hotels and the room numbers of those delegates who are directly involved in the steal. >> appropriate rhetoric? >> i'm not giving him my hotel room. >> okay. so, do you sort of dis -- >> roger is not an official part of the campaign. >> did he bring you in? >> no. >> okay. >> in fact, not at all. i came in a different way.

i've known trump for 30 years. so, when somebody started talking about the need to bring in additional people to deal of this process, friends of his, that were not from the political realm, even, he listened and then reached out. >> what is fair game to win a delegate? is threats a fair game? >> it's not my style. it's not donald trump's style, but it is ted cruz's style. and that's going to wear thin very fast. >> you think he's threatening delegates? >> well, he's threatening -- you go to these county conventions and you see the tactic, gestapo tactics -- >> that's a strong word. >> well, you look at -- we're going to be filing several protests, because the reality is they are not playing by the rules. but frankly, that's the side game, because the only game i'm focusing on right now is getting delegates. and the games that have happened, even this past weekend, you know, are not important to the long-term game of how do we get to 1,237. >> but is he -- i guess, what is fair game in getting a delegate? is paying for their convention costs? is it golf club memberships?

what's fair and unfair in this? what's ethical, what's unethical? >> well, there's the law and then there's ethics and then there's getting votes. i'm not going to get into what tactics to use. i happen to think the best way we're going to get delegates is to have donald trump expose the delegates, let them hear what he says. he's done very well so far in putting himself in position by virtue of communicating. you know, the key, i think, for delegates coming up, especially the unbound delegates, is the electability question. and right now, we're in a fight, and this fight is, you know, causes a negative score for all candidates, but there's no question in my mind, there's not one state you can look at that romney won or lost in 2012 that cruz can win, not one. but trump changes the whole map. as we get into those arguments, which is the end game of the end game, that persuasion starts to have an impact. >> you have some controversial clients in your past, some current, some in the past. has mr. trump asked you to stop working for certain clients, stop doing work in ukraine, if it's against america's national

security? >> well, the work i was doing in ukraine was to help ukraine get into europe, and we succeeded, but i'm not working for any clients right now other than mr. trump. >> and are you going to make a promise in the future that if he's president, you'll be careful what clients you take? >> i'm always careful of the clients i take. >> all right, i will leave it there. paul manafort, new convention manager. we have molly ball of "atlantic," my colleague at msnbc, joe yawn reid and jeff lowry of "the national review." rich, let me start with you. you've heard what's going on. i think the trump campaign saw what was happening, donald trump saw what was happening to them in the states and they had to make this change. is it going to work? >> well, this is a campaign that was built on media interviews, on big rallies and on a twitter feed. and even now that they're retooling, i doubt grassroots organizing will ever be in its dna the way it is for the cruz campaign, and there's still a

lot of variables, obviously. if trump's short, how far short? what's the margin with cruz and what do his general election numbers look like in july? but we may be getting to a place where it's slightly more likely that ted cruz will be the nominee than donald trump, because if it gets to a convention, that is very favorable terrain for cruz. >> but molly, as paul has made it clear, both with me and in previous interviews, they're not going to get to a second ballot. to me, that's also an acknowledgement that they need to get this on the first ballot. >> it may be. i mean, i don't think that's necessarily the subtext of what he is saying. i think that they are doing everything in their control to also make the second ballot feasible for them, if it should come to that. you'd always like to say you won straight out and you won't get to that point. but when he was talking about the trojan delegates and trying to get those committed on the first ballot are committed all the way through, that's clearly also an effort they're making. so, i think the message that paul manafort is trying to send

in that interview and a lot of others is that things are under control and they know what they're doing, and that was very much not the case before. >> this weekend, matt, you look at this weekend and the cruz campaign is really pounding their chest. >> so, there's a couple questions, right? can trump get to 1,237? that's obviously going to be their first game and it looks less and less likely, but paul manafort says something interesting, he says we are going to let trump expose the delegates, and i think this gets to the heart of the issue. let's say he gets really close, as close as he gets to 1,237, that's on him. all he has to do is go out and convince a certain number of uncommitted delegates or delegates on the second ballot that he's a worthwhile nominee. if he can't do that shame on him and he doesn't deserve -- >> trip to mar alago. >> it's funny matt brings it up this way and what he said, who has a better shot of winning over a room of 100, ted cruz or donald trump? >> i think it depends, because you remember in the previous processes, they sent surrogates in to do it, so ben carson could

nice his way to getting delegates on board. i think cruz has a problem because he's not exactly a personable fellow. so, if they're doing the persuasion one on one, you'd think trump would gain an advantage. >> because you always hear, trump is fun. he has a way about him. >> have you watched "the apprentice"? if you can't get a room of 100 with those ratings -- >> finish, joy. >> i think the thing is that what we're seeing here, and it's fascinating to watch politics reassert itself, because while trump has had kind of the air campaign, you see them just not playing in terms of the nuts and bolts of what you do to actually win a nomination, and ted cruz does not have that. he doesn't have the ability to be personally persuasive, but he plays the game. >> wait, i thought the illuminating answer he said to me -- i said who's running this campaign? he said donald trump's in charge. >> of course he is. >> the most honest statement there is. yes, candidates are in charge of their own campaign, but in this case, he is. >> i spoke to trump a couple weeks ago and i asked him, you

haven't had anybody with presidential campaign experience really. don't you think you need some of those people, or this is just a completely new model of campaign where those people are irrelevant now? and he said, well, this has worked for me so far. >> back to someone who did bob dole -- >> so, now there's clearly been a realization on his part that it isn't working anymore, or at the very least that there needs to be someone in the room who does know what they're doing. >> this question of cruz and persuasion at the convention, i think it's a mistake to think that convention's going to be like a luncheon at the capitol hill club where everyone's a senator and a lobbyist. these will be activists, they will be conservative. they are ted cruz's kind of people. and at every single meeting, that campaign is making sure they're going to be ted cruz kind of people. >> you know who else they'll like? they're probably paul ryan type of people, too, but that is a conversation -- i'm just -- >> just throwing a grenade in. >> just throwing a grenade in, let it explode, and we'll talk about it later in the show. but coming up, what if the republican establishment manages to deny both trump and cruz the nomination? would some conservatives simply

stay home on election day? i'm going to ask a man who might know, radio talk show host and founder of the blaze, glenn beck. but first, the democrats. bernie sanders joins me after his win in wyoming, along with mys mayor bill de blasio, a clinton supporter. were the first in my family to graduate from college and trained as a nurse. but i couldn't bear my diabetic nerve pain any longer. so i talked to my doctor and he prescribed lyrica. lyrica may cause serious allergic reactions or suicidal thoughts or actions. tell your doctor right away if you have these, new or worsening depression, or unusual changes in mood or behavior. or swelling, trouble breathing, rash, hives, blisters, muscle pain with fever, tired feeling or blurry vision. common side effects are dizziness, sleepiness, weight gain and swelling of hands, legs, and feet. don't drink alcohol while taking lyrica. don't drive or use machinery until you know how lyrica affects you. those who have had a drug or alcohol problem may be more likely to misuse lyrica. now i have less diabetic nerve pain. ask your doctor about lyrica. is it keeps the food out. for me

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welcome back. it was this same old story in the democratic caucuses in wyoming yesterday. bernie sanders won the votes, but hillary clinton got the delegates. sanders won wyoming by 12 points, 56%-44%, but that didn't help him in the delegate race.

clinton took 11 delegates to sanders' 7. when you include the superdelegates. and as you can see, clinton still holds a large delegate lead combined pledged and superdelegates. yesterday's voting came after a week of unusually harsh sniping between sanders and clinton in anticipation of next tuesday's make or break primary in new york. the state where sanders grew up and clinton adopted. right now, senator sanders is joining me from his home state, new york city. senator, welcome back, sir. >> great to be with you. >> let me start by what happened in wyoming. how frustrating is it that you have a double-digit win, you won by double digits on tuesday, and overall, wisconsin and wyoming, you were able to narrow the pledged delegate gap all by just ten delegates total. that's not a path to the nomination. >> well, that's what happens when you have proportional representation, but what is a path to the nomination is we have cut secretary clinton's lead by one-third in the last

month. we have won eight out of nine contests. national polling in the last three polls, two of them have us ahead. we are running stronger against donald trump and other republicans than secretary clinton. we have the momentum. i think we stand a really good chance to do well in new york state, in pennsylvania, and as we head into other states. so, we're feeling really good with a path toward victory. >> you know, you have said -- you have implied at rallies that you've got to win new york if you're going to reset this race. is that fair? >> no. what's fair is to say that new york is enormously important. there are a whole lot of delegates there. i want to do as well as i can. the polling shows that we are narrowing the gap. and obviously, a victory in new york state, secretary clinton's state that she represented in the senate, would be an enormous boost for us. >> but can you win the nomination without winning new york? >> yeah, yeah, absolutely, we can. i think we're going to head out west. >> okay. >> i think we're looking strong in pennsylvania. we do think, chuck, we've got a

path to victory, because the american people are responding to our message that it's just too late for establishment politics, establishment economics. we've got to stand up to the billionaire class, and that is resonating all across this nation. >> as i implied earlier this week, there was a big tiff about this issue of you calling secretary clinton unqualified. you've since walked it back, said that she is qualified to be president. but i want to play you something that senator mccaskill said and get you to respond to it on the other side. >> calling hillary clinton not qualified is like fingernails on a blackboard to many women across this country. >> you know, both former president clinton and senator mccaskill there implied that had hillary clinton been a man, you never would have said that. >> look, senator mccaskill has been a strong advocate for secretary clinton from day one, and this business about attacking me in that regard is

absurd. what the truth is, is that secretary clinton has been going after us along with her surrogates very, very hard. there was, you know, a headline in the "washington post," clinton campaign arguing that sanders is unqualified. the point that i was making, which is absolutely correct, is that if you look at where she is getting her money, from wall street and other powerful special interests, she voted for the war, she cited henry kissinger, in a sense, as a model for her. i think those issues will tell the american people that in many respects she may have the experience to be president of the united states, no one can argue that, but in terms of her judgment, something is clearly lacking. >> so, you believe she doesn't have the judgment to be president of the united states. >> well, when you vote for virtually every trade agreement that has cost the workers of

this country millions of jobs, when you support and continue to support fracking, despite the crisis that we have in terms of clean water, and essentially, when you have a super pac that is raising tens of millions of dollars from every special interest out there, including $15 million from wall street, the american people do not believe that that is the kind of president that we need to make the changes in america to protect the working families of this country. >> all right, you brought up the whole issue with getting money and the speeches to wall street. would you be on higher ground if you released -- you have released less about your taxes and tax returns than any other candidate running for president, other than donald trump. where are your tax returns? and wouldn't that put you on a higher ground in calling for hillary clinton to say release these speech transcripts? >> we are going to release -- i think we've talked about it before. actually, you know, my wife works on our taxes.

we have been busy. we are going to get all of our taxes out. trust me, there is nothing that is going to surprise anybody. >> but are you going to do 7, 10, 15 years' worth of tax returns? so far, you've done one. >> we will do the best that we can. but yeah, we will get our tax returns out. look, you know, the issue facing this country, chuck, and why our campaign is doing well is the american people are tired of establishment politics in which the wealthiest people become much rich er. and i would hope that we can focus on those important issues. >> i understand that. i will leave it there. i know we're going to hear from you a lot in the next ten days. >> okay. >> senator sanders, thanks for coming on the show. >> my pleasure. >> you got it. perspective on the other side. i'm joined by the mayor of new york city, bill de blasio, who was on stage with hillary clinton at an event in new york city last night, and he joins us now. mayor did i de blazzo, welcome back to "meet the press." >> thank you, chuck. >> let me ask you, why is bernie

sanders resonating so well in new york state? he may not win, but he is clearly more competitive in hillary clinton's home state. assess this. you're a strategist as well as an elected official. >> chuck, hillary's going to win new york. i feel that more every day. she has a great operation on the ground, a great wellspring of goodwill from years representing new york. and the bottom line is we're going to have a debate on thursday where i think the contrast is going to be clear. i have great respect for both of these candidates, but hillary is a person who can get things done, kinds of things we need in this country. look, we have to tax the wealthy, we have to raise wages and benefits. we need things like universal pre-k nationwide. hillary's a person who actually knows how to get things like that done, and that's what voters are looking for. they're looking for change in this country, but it has to be practical, it has to be real. so, i feel very good about her prospects on april 19th. >> you say that the country needs change. so, i'm sort of -- what change does hillary clinton provide from barack obama?

>> look, the bottom line is look at her whole career. i mentioned pre-k. here's someone who went to work for the children's defense fund right out of law school, has focused on the needs of children and families for decades and understands we have to do something very, very different. i have no doubt that a hillary clinton in the white house is the best route to national universal pre-k, for example, something we're very proud we've done here in new york. look at how she took on the health insurance companies in 1993 and '94. i remember that fight. it was a vicious attack on her by one of the biggest industries in this country. well, that resonates with how she will be in a position to rein in wall street. and by the way, her plan to rein in wall street is the one that is the most relevant and i think in some ways the toughest. so, when you look at a history of fighting, of knowing how to stand up to powerful interests and having tremendous persistence, those are the characteristics of someone who can achieve change. this is not about theoretical change, this is about actual tangible change that people in this country need. one thing we can say, chuck, it

is a year when the people of this country are focused on income inequality, they're making very, very clear they don't accept the status quo, but they need change that's practical and can actually be achieved. >> you took a while before you endorsed hillary clinton. do you believe if bernie sanders wasn't running that hillary clinton would be speaking as much about income inequality the way she is now? >> i think hillary has a long history that speaks to these very same issues. as i mentioned, children's defense fund, taking on the health insurance companies -- >> but has bernie sanders moved her in a way that actually makes you happier as a progressive? >> i think bernie sanders has contributed a lot to the national discussion. there's no two ways about that, and i think he deserves a lot of respect for raising important issues. but you also have to say look at hillary clinton's platform from day one. she came out very strong, first major speech she gave was on addressing and ending mass incarceration and major criminal justice reforms, and she went speech by speech, plank by plank in her platform with a platform, bluntly, chuck, it would be the most progressive of any

president walking in the door of the white house in a generation. and that is very consistent with what she's devoted her life to. so, look, i think bernie sanders has done something good in this national debate, but i think hillary clinton's the person who can actually achieve these changes. >> before i let you go, there was a lot of news involving your campaign for mayor a few years ago. the fbi is now probing some campaign fund-raising activities as part of an investigation of corruption into the nypd, but apparently, there's some potential campaign finance irregularities involving your campaign that's part of this investigation. do you feel confident your campaign followed the law here? >> i absolutely do, chuck. we are very, very scrupulous about that. everything we've done is appropriate and carefully done with many, many lawyers, i assure you. but i haven't heard anything about any investigation. there hasn't been any question posed to me or my team, and we don't have any evidence -- >> when you say definitively -- just one other part of this -- was any money from your

non-profit campaign for one new york used in your campaign? >> no, totally different things. campaign for one new york was to achieve progressive change -- affordable housing, pre-k for all. that was a separate entity that worked on those issues. >> so you believe you'll be totally cleared from any of this? >> yeah, and we have no evidence of an investigation happening to begin with. >> mayor de blasio, new york city, hillary clinton supporter. thanks for coming on. >> thank you, chuck. when we return, we go back to the republican fight. could the party really take the nomination away from donald trump and ted cruz? and if they did, where would the conservative base go? and later, for years, presidents have been racing at the washington nationals game. well, guess what? there's a new president in town this year who will be racing. can you guess who might it be? here's a hint -- his uniform number this year will be 31. working on my feet all day gave me pain here.

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♪ today's "data download," we're going to look at the republican delegate fight. now that ted cruz has won a majority of the delegates in wisconsin and colorado this

week. so, where does that leave donald trump in his path to the nomination? well, that's what we're going to try to show you here. first, here's the most updated delegate count. as you know, the magic number is 1,237. so, we're going to show you how donald trump can get there in his best day. he needs 61% of the remaining 798 delegates to do it. so, how does he get there? well, here's the everything goes right trump scenario in the states that are left to participate in this process. the green states are where we expect trump to do very well. purple means he's likely to win some delegates. and red states are where we believe he will get shut out. so, beginning with the green states, let's for now give all 95 there in new york delegates to trump. assume a sweep of new jersey as well, 51 more. pretty good start. maryland in this scenario turns out to be trump country. he wins almost all of the delegates there. that's a big deal. next, indiana. the assumption is momentum takes over. no one's sure what's going to

happen in there, but if momentum goes right, maybe trump does well, gets 39 delegates there. wins a majority out of washington state, too, again, momentum being a factor. then on the last day of voting, the assumption is trump actually sweeps all 27 in winner-take-all states like montana and then wins a majority out in california. meanwhile, trump holds his own in the purple states, winning his share of delegates in places like rhode island, new mexico and oregon. add it all up, and trump walks into cleveland with 1,245. it's eight more than he needs. donald trump is the republican nominee. but again, that was a very optimistic, rosy of roseiest scenarios. but here's what we think is a more realistic map. trump still does well in places like new york and new jersey, but he does well in maryland, but not quite as well, a little less. maryland looks more like say northern virginia, where he struggled, so we're going to give him just 20 delegates, not 32. indiana votes like nearby

wisconsin, we expect cruz to win it and maybe trump only gets 12 delegates out of there. montana then goes from green to red, becomes a winner-take-all state for cruz. then washington state happens. again, we expect in this scenario cruz to win but trump to get some delegates. and then california becomes a good state for donald trump but not a great one. so, add it all up and trump winds up short on this scenario, 1,165, 72 short of the magic number that he needs. and you know what? if trump is short 72, you can be sure he's not going to win on that first ballot. and then we're looking at multiple ballots with ted cruz or maybe someone else -- could it be paul ryan parachuting in and taking this nomination? in fact, how would conservatives feel if the convention took it away from both trump and cruz? would the right just totally walk? my next guest will have an opinion on that. he's the founder of "the blaze," none other than glenn beck. stay with us. blaze," none other than glenn beck. stay with us. if you miss "meet the

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not dandruff. welcome back. conservative talk radio has been on fire over the possibility of an open convention that doesn't just deny the republican nomination to donald trump but to ted cruz as well. so, just how would the conservative base react to that outcome? glenn beck joins me now. he's the founder of blaze.com. it's a conservative website and tv network, and he's endorsed ted cruz, by the way. mr. beck, welcome to "meet the press." >> how are you? >> i'm good. >> thank you very much. >> let me start with this concern. we've heard it from many people that are cruz supporters and that are trump supporters over the airwaves who are concerned that, somehow, the party establishment may deny both of them. what would happen, do you think, to -- what would your listeners, how would they react? >> i think it would be the end of the gop. i don't think it's going to happen. 538.com just said that ted cruz

has a 61% chance of winning california. ted cruz has won the last ten in a row with utah and north dakota and wisconsin and colorado. and i mean, i just don't see it happening. >> so, you think if paul ryan is somehow plucked as the republican nominee, that it would be the end of the gop? >> i think it would be very bad, i do. i think it would be very bad. you can't disenfranchise people. i mean, we've all gone out, we've been passionate about it, we have all been going back and forth and voted on the people that we believe. i mean, i really think it has to be one of the two front-runners. but i just think people would feel very betrayed. and that's why, quite honestly, that's why people like bernie sanders and donald trump are doing well, because people feel very, very disenfranchised, and they're angry. and that's something we don't want to add fuel to. you know, when roger stone was calling in saying that he was going to put out the hotel room numbers and encourage people to

go to their hotels, the delegates' hotel rooms and called for the days of rage, which we all remember 1968, that's really not a good thing. we don't want to play into the anger and the hatred and vi vitriol. we're in this together. martin luther king said we're either going to live like brothers together or perish together like fools. >> do you think paul ryan is running? i want to play a quick clip for our viewers of a video he put out on friday. take a listen. >> what really bothers me the most about politics these days is this notion of identity politics, that we're going to win an election by dividing people, rather than inspiring people on our common humanity and our common ideals and our common culture, on the things that should unify us. we want people to reach their potential in their lives. now, liberals and conservatives are going to disagree with one another on that. no problem. that's what this is all about. so, let's have a battle of ideas. >> that could have easily been a

general election ad for the republican nominee, and that came from speaker.gov. do you think he is running an underground campaign here? >> i don't know. i would like to take him at his word, but you know, i don't take anybody really in washington at their word anymore. i don't know what that ad is about. but again, if the gop doesn't find its principles -- this isn't about a candidate coming up with some utopan future for us. this is really about finding our principles, and if they don't find their principles, the gop is going to be over. and disenfranchising people who have worked hard and gone out and campaigned for some of these people i think would be a really bad mistake. >> you were pretty aggressively on the never trump bandwagon, but under this circumstance, it sounds like you would prefer a trump nomination if it's not cruz, over anybody else? >> no, no, no. i think a trump nomination would be -- i am a never trump guy. >> okay. >> i think a trump nomination

would be disastrous. with that being said, you can't disenfranchise people. if trump wins the 1,237 or wins the first, second, third ballot, it must go to him, and it can't go to dirty politics. you can't continue to disenfranchise people. i will never vote for donald trump, but if he's the guy that is picked with fair play, that's fine, but you have reince priebus saying that it will be somebody who is running right now. okay, let's take the gop chair at his word. it's got to be somebody who's running. >> does that mean you'll support a third-party bid? and will you actively try to get others to support a third-party bid if trump's the nominee? >> i just don't think this is going to happen. and i haven't decided on what i would do. i know i will not vote for trump and i would probably go and just look for the strongest people in the house and the senate that would keep hillary clinton at bay, because trump is not going to win the general -- if you

look at the polls, and todd you know this, no matter what they say -- you look at the polls, hillary clinton wins every time with donald trump. >> all right, glenn beck. i'm going to leave it there. >> thank you. >> from theblaze.com. appreciate it. good to talk to you. >> thank you. >> thanks for coming on. when we come back, our friends at "snl" had some fun with hillary clinton's efforts to prove she's a genuine new yorker. >> in fact, my head is getting little chilly. i'd better put on my favorite hat that i've worn so many times over the years. here we go. is it becoming a better professor by being a more adventurous student? is it one day giving your daughter the opportunity she deserves? is it finally witnessing all the artistic wonders of the natural world? whatever your definition of success is, helping you pursue it, is ours. t-i-a-a. there it is...

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and we are back. the panel is here. let's get into the democrats a little bit. bill clinton had a run-in with some protesters, and it involved him still trying to live down the crime bill of the '90s. let me play both his back-and-forth with the protesters and then his walk-back. take a listen. [ inaudible ] >> wait a minute, wait a minute. okay, i heard it. can i answer? >> no, you can't. >> no, you see, here's the thing -- i like protesters, but the ones that won't let you answer are afraid of the truth. you are defending the people who killed the lives you say matters. tell the truth. i know those young people yesterday were just trying to get good television, and they did. but that doesn't mean i was most effective in answering it. >> joy, a lot of people assumed that that was a black lives protester -- >> correct.

>> the confrontation with bill clinton that was not. >> that was not. >> as you were telling me and explaining to us earlier, but boy, that still looked like a bill clinton missed the memo? >> yeah, very aawkward. >> had to talk about his crime bill that everybody's repudiated. >> very awkward. it was people with the coalition of justice who said they are not affiliated with black lives matter. that said, the problem with bill clinton's oration and the way he defended himself was that he was defending himself, and that bill clinton i think is living emotionally through the repudiation of much of his legacy, whether it's on lgbt rights, on this crime bill or criminal justice. >> you're right. >> he's being relitigated in the negative and it's hard for him to deal with it. but in the role of surrogate, it is not your job to defend yourself and this complicated bill that has no clean hands, by the way. >> and he took the bait of the protester. >> i think he understands it. since he's left the white house, he's been in an incredibly difficult position of not being able to defend his legacy. i've had the personal experience of 2008, i was going to do a long interview with him about

his legacy and the clinton campaign squashed it. look, i've written this before, we've talked about it on this program, he's right, the crime bill is a much more complicated piece of legislation than it's talked about. actually, there's a lot of -- >> really, there's nuance that we don't get correct in the media? >> and the victims that that bill was addressing, the people who were alive today who might well have been dead given the trajectory of crime at that time in the country -- and i was covering it -- were black and poor. >> right. >> and he has every right to feel his legacy is being distorted. >> the people asking for it -- i think we forget there were many, many hands on that bill, including black mayors and members of congress, more than half of the congressional black caucus voted for it, but reverend al sharpton was protesting it until the end because it contained death penalty extension and things we now look back on as bad policy, fwlut were a lot of hands on it, including bernie sanders who voted for it. >> i found it invigorating, which means a sure disaster in primary politics. but he's right, the bill came in the context of a three-decade

crime wave that was devastating to american cities. and even if you think we've gone too far in incarceration, and i think there's a good case we have, the increase is primarily driven by violent offenders and people who have committed serious property crime. so, this was not a policy that was born of racism or pointless -- >> and the crime bill cannot crack down on nonviolent offenders, which is -- >> by the way, i want to bring up something else, molly. as bill clinton said in his semi apology, well, i know they wanted to get on television. and it came across as slightly condescending. i want to play something that hillary clinton said to me last week about sanders' supporters. take a listen. >> i feel sorry sometimes for the young people who, you know, believe this, they don't do their own research, and i'm glad that we now can point to reliable, independent analysis to say, no, it's just not true. >> this was on another issue where the fact-checkers were on hillary clinton's side, not on bernie sanders' side, but it was the way she did it and the way bill clinton did it.

they seem almost resentful that young voters are not with them. >> and that, i think what you saw bill clinton doing there was an extension of hillary clinton's mood, that she feels she has bent over backwards to accommodate every demand of the bernie sanders people, the ideological liberals, the left wing of the party, the activists, every time they have confronted her, she's said, you're right, i believe what you believe, we're all together. >> yes. >> yes, yes, yes. and finally, she's snapping back and he's snapping back saying, you know what, no, we're going to defend ourselves, you're wrong about these things. i think that you're lying about my donations from the fossil fuel industry, as she said to that protester the other day. so, you see the clintons getting a little bit testy, and i think that was what bill regretted. he didn't regret what he said. >> it's not like young people are just tilting bernie's ways, they're on north korean standards. >> on that note, we'll take a pause. we'll go to the "end game" segment and be back in 30 seconds.

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the new york city subway's the best way to get around. ow. it's been a while. is this a working metrocard? is it? i'll just go in the old-fashioned way. [ laughter ] i'll take a cab. cab is the best way to get around. >> "end game" time, and that was "snl's" take on the pandering by hillary clinton ahead of the new york primary. but let's give hillary clinton a break here -- she's not the only one being accused of new york city pandering, and frankly, "snl" didn't exactly need to create the parody. the candidates themselves invented. take a look. >> i really, i love it because it's so convenient. it is just the best way to get around. >> thank you, and i would simply say to everyone, la jiya.

>> he's nice -- >> maybe you should wallop in the mud a little bit like you say. >> i stack breads upside down. that's bad luck. >> show us how it's done. >> that's right. >> i can feel it. >> are you ready? >> yes. >> fold it. >> by the way, it was "the view" folks that pushed sanders to show how to eat a new york pizza, but my god. >> last night michael put it best on "snl," nobody likes to ride the subway. >> i have trouble, too, but here's the thing. like, what is she doing on the subway? where is she going? >> i think it was a point -- i think she wanted to mock -- she was trying to mock bernie sanders for using -- for talking about tokens, which of course, they haven't used tokens in a while. >> okay, but doesn't she have anything better to do? >> it's about time we have new york pandering. it's usually the iowa pandering, the state fair, food on a stick.

>> politicians pander because it works, they do it over and over again, but i also think new yorkers are so self-centered, there's no way to pander to them too much. there is no new yorker that will be like, you like us too much, that's over the top. >> i absolutely agree, 100%. new yorkers absolutely believe there is no pander too hot. let's go back to the republican side. rich, your take on glenn beck and what he said about paul ryan. >> i think he's right, it would be a very bad idea. because if there's one thing we've learned about this process, republican voters, they're not interested in someone who's embedded in the party's leadership, they're not interested in someone who's donor-friendly and who's soft on immigration. and it'd be one thing if ryan was a compromise between cruz and trump. he's a rejection of both of them and 70% of republican voters. so, a lot of this chatter is just the establishment still -- >> wishing. >> -- cannot get its mind around the fact that the choice before it is trump or cruz. >> and kasich's not a choice anymore? >> well, i'm still baffled by fact that he's still there. i'm wondering who's giving him money. but can we go back and pause on glenn beck and this come

together, we're all in this together message? this is the guy who launched the 9/12 movement on the anniversary of the march on washington, saying they were the real heirs to king's legacy and said that the president of the united states hates white people and hates the white culture. so, i find it interesting that he's now decided to take on this king role in his own mind of bring the country together. but on the political sphere, i think he's right. i think that the establishment cannot answer a revolt from its own base by saying we will give you this other establishment guy who's way better than the other establishment people. >> it was an amazing box that i feel like they've backed, basically, has put the party in. he's basically saying, you can't ever nominate trump. i'll never support him, but hey, you'd better nominate him if it isn't cruz. >> well, i think his argument contradicts himself. because on the one hand, he's saying respect the will of the voters, and if they feel us enfranchised, it will split the party, as if that hasn't happened pretty much. but assuming a brokered convention is probable, no one has a majority of the vote. some plurality is going to be

disenfranchised. you will have a majority of republicans -- this is not a democratic process. >> i reject to the word disenfranchise, because i don't know where the people got the idea that somehow party primaries are constitutionally protected. it's always been this way. you have to get delegates. that's the way it's always been. >> i also want to remind people, again, we are a republic. and actually, even these private organizations called the democratic party and republican party, private organizations. >> right. >> not governed by the constitution. chose to essentially mirror the constitution's choices. the constitution says we're going to have an electoral college, a federal system decide who our president, is and the two parties agreed. >> and the delegates there are roughly national gous -- >> we're doing american government teachers good today. >> representative of congress. >> this is a relatively recent innovation. this wasn't always the case. and it's only in the last few decades that they have chosen to resemble more -- >> the primary. >> the quasi democratic -- >> but however you pick the delegates, the fact remains, it's always been the two -- you know, dwight eisenhower, richard nixon, they didn't show up to

the convention with the delegates. they had to go there and twist arms and earn it. >> exactly. >> just because you're doing it more with primaries and caucuses now -- >> if you want tonight leader of the party, shouldn't you be able to prove you can do some behind-the-scenes stuff, too? >> right, organizing has always been part of politics, and 1,237 is not just a number, it's the majority to show you have the majority. >> and for the republicans, their fundamental problem is not listening to the base of their party. i think it would be the ultimate sort of irony if they attempted to fix that by once again not listening to the base of their party. >> i want to talk about -- you know, we have a new president already here. i know we're talking about the election of a new president in 2017, but we have a new one, we're focused on this race, but we have a new president in washington. and this, in fact, the new president is in town or back in town starting today. he's a new old president. herbert hoover. the nation's 31st president will debut this afternoon as the newest addition to the washington nationals racing president mascots that compete on the field in the middle of the fourth inning.

and i got an exclusive interview with herbie earlier this week. take a look. are you going to be somebody that can actually win these races, yes or no? yes, you will win these races. and when you lose, do you end up going into a great depression? is that wrong? is that wrong? is it too soon? [ laughter ] >> anyway, by the way, herbert hoover -- actually, that's his third appearance on "meet the press," guys, because he was actually on twice as a former president. by the way, this is the white house historical association, they have an ornament to honor the west wing fire that took place while hoover was president. the ornament they'll be selling and giving away to fans who get questions about herbert hoover right at games is a wonderful fire truck, and i have to say, that ornament is worth all of it. it's really cool. >> i won't be satisfied until all the racers are late 19th or early 20th-century republicans. >> there you go. >> i'm a real yankee fan. you show up dressed like that to yankee stadium, you've got a

problem. >> there you go. that's all we have today. we'll be back next week, because if it's sunday, it's "meet the press." terrifying, dangerous, explosive situations. split-second dilemmas. a house on fire. >> the flames come through the window like they belonged in the house and i didn't. >> a car out of control. >> i knew i was probably going to die. >> a downed sightseeing plane. >> lift up, buddy. >> an abduction in broad daylight. >> it looked like she was fighting for her life. >> witnesses must decide whether or not to intervene at their own risk. >> i've got to think quick before this guy kills someone. ♪ >> "caught on camera: what would you do?"