we're always re-thinking what's possible in skincare. that's just how we roll. neutrogena®. see what's possible. so i watch bernie, he wins, he wince, he keeps winning, winning winning. then i see he's got no chance, they always say he has no chance. why doesn't he have a chance? because the system is corrupt. and it's worse on the republican side because i'm up millions of votes on cruz, millions, i don't mean like i'm up by two votes, i'm up millions and millions of votes. we've got a corrupt system. it's not right. we're supposed to be a

democracy. we're supposed to be you vote and the vote means something. we should have won it a long time ago but we keep losing where we're winning, today winning votes doesn't mean anything. this is the only time. good monday morning to you all. it's supposed to be spring. >> i'm trying to will it so. >> wow. >> you look great. it's monday. >> that's great winter white. >> welcome to "morning joe." on set we have managing editor of bloomberg politics and the hosts of "with all due respect" although they're not very respectful, joe. it airs at 6:00 p.m. on msnbc, mark halperin and john heilemann. former communications director for george w. bush nicolle wallace. >> in winter white. we can't complain. we had such a great winter. >> but i'm ready for it to be -- >> it would be nice. it was snowing on saturday. >> yes, in connecticut we had flurries. >> it was snowing so that's not

great. >> never ideal. >> a couple interesting things happening as we start the week. first of all, nicolle, i know your parents had to be relieved as was my brother. the trump campaign in many ways starting to show that discipline that everybody's been suggesting they needed to show. trump not running on 20 shows on sunday, not tweeting up, you know, storms against megyn kelly or other people, have a campaign manager that takes slings and arrows on sunday. they're doing it the way you're supposed to at least pretend to do it. >> i don't know that i'd call it discipline yet. but i think the big question -- and there is a lot of debate last tuesday night -- about whether or not he could make adjustment, and he has. so i think there were people that didn't think he was capable of evolving and he has. and the message about how he's losing when he wins is the one

he rides into the convention. >> it's a great message. >> he had gone -- >> i'm talking tactically. >> his failures were rooted in the fact that he'd gone way off message, not behavior. but that the message had been totally lost and i think he's got himself back on message most importantly. >> you agree. whether you agree with it or not -- and his crickets are going to call it whining but it's a great message for an insurgent to write -- >> against a rigged system which is the animating purpose of this cycle. >> the entire cycle. the system is rigged, even when i win they steal it from us, the idiots running the colorado republican party tweeting "never trump" afterthey award delegates to ted cruz without a single voter going to the polls to vote. everything seems to be playing into this message. >> the nomination is within his grasp. he doesn't entirely control his own destiny but pretty close.

when he remembers to make it about the voters and not himself, it's a very effective message about him right now. >> and it's effective that he happens to be doing where he's just blowing everybody aways in polls. colorado can have their party games without having voters actually go to the polls to vote but he could say but in new york real people are going to vote and i'm up by 25 points in.blow away. >> we said it's a mistake if a parties go to war with its own voters or a band goes war with its fans trump can make it seem as though the republican party is at war with his voters, he wins the argument. >> we have a headline on papers all over the place. president obama defending hillary clinton on the e-mails, very interesting. we'll listen to that. >> it's disturbing to fbi

agents. >> and people put a ball in a hole and make millions of dollars, something happened in golf. >> mika, i'm so impressed that you -- yes. >> it's on the front page of the "wall street journal" and "usa today" so i guess i have to -- >> it's a tradition like no other. >> it is. and a meltdown like -- >> as the "new york times" found out in 2002 or 2003. >> did anybody see this. jordan spieth way ahead. he was ahead last year when he won. ahead the whole time here. he goes to the back nine, he bogeys 10, bogeys 11, then he starts looking like me. >> that's not good. >> no, that's not good. >> did he start cursing and digging holes into the ground with his stick. >> and i believe he got a quadruple bogey. >> with his snitick?

the golf club. >> so we were watching it and as he'd making the turn we're talking about what an extraordinary achievement this was going to be. i went out to the corner store, got a falafel, they have a lot of those in new canaan, i'm holding the spicy sauce and it's dripping out of my hand and he's behind. he was like four behind. >> how long do these things go on? >> it takes a long time. >> days. >> you can take a long drive -- >> and people sit and watch. amazing. >> most incredible part is he almost came back again. >> nothing to say about the golden state warriors. >> you go ahead. >> the golden state warriors tied the record for most regular season wins with one game ahead -- >> i think we're in the weeds. >> that's a huge story. >> pride of the bay area now. new polls show donald trump -- >> are they in the eastern time zone in. >> no, they would lead the show if they were. >> they might as well be playing in beijing.

new polls show donald trump with a large lead over his opponents in two of the states up next to vote. in new york a fox news poll shows trump leading by 32 points, 54% to john kasich's 22%. ted cruz is at 15%. >> let's stop there. let's go back for a zblekd okay, stay in new york. >> massive lead. nicolle, this is obviously going to grab the headlines for the next couple weeks. if you're donald trump and decide to bring in paul manafort, you decide to go establishment as much as possible, now is a great time to do it because you can do it and then tell all your critics look what i've done, i rebooted and guess what? i just won by 30 points in the second most-important state in america. >> that matters for the first time in a long time. i think he's in a very strong position. i got back to this notion that the climate both parties are running in is against a rigged

economy, against a rigged political establishment and i think cruz loses by winning because i think that feels rigged. it feels against the democratic process. i know they're doing incredible things in these state conventions, that where's the game has moved but i don't think that that is advantage on the larger field that this race should be played on. >> when there's a headline, mark, that cruz has managed to go in and steal delegates in south carolina from donald trump and of course the press jumps up and down that says look how stupid's trump operation -- no, i don't know about their operation but i know this -- people remember that donald trump beat the hell out of everybody in south korea among the voters. the voters voted for donald trump and when they're reading stories weeks later saying "trump's such a fool, all he knew how to do is get the votesers to vote for him but he's such a moron that the party insiders are turning against

him." i don't know, i'm sure a lot of people on twitter delight in that. i can tell you it makes cruz look bad. it makes the party look bad. it makes the system looked rig and as we've been say iing, in type of coverage makes donald trump stronger. >> but makes you keep him from being the nominee. this is analogous to 2000, we learned about how florida votes how the country votes in 2000 and how much error there is. these are the rules and the republican party, it's not a government election, it's a private party and i agree with you that voters will be exercised and are what's happened by donald trump but these are the rules and the cruz people arepl playing by the rul. >> i totally understand the rules. i'm the one that said if he gets 1236 they can send him home. those are the rules.

i'm just talking the pr of it. it just looks bad. most importantly, it feeds into his narrative. >> and the lesson in florida, i worked on that campaign, i worked on those recounts and the principle -- legal and otherwise -- is if you're ahead in the first count, it's hard to lose. donald trump will go into the convention ahead with the most delegates so -- >> but i'm talking about the mechanics. >> i'm talking about the pr because i don't think there's been much mechanical about donald trump's rise. i watched a one hour special on another network where he was really the first foreign speak to these mass layoff, to make trade about human beings. and i think if he stays on his message which on the economy is about trade about things no other republicans are talking about and if he gets to the convention talking about winning in the vote and rails against a rigged system i don't know how he loses. i don't know how the party

recovers from being perceived as taking it. >> especially when you look at the numbers from these big states. >> look at pennsylvania, trump has a 26-point advantage ahead of kasich. cruz is in a close third 2509%. >> so there you have, john hielman, also in pennsylvania which was least in the last poll we saw a week or ago much closer after donald trump had his horrific two week run. looks like that bleeding stopped. notice ted cruz the only guy that can beat donald trump is in third place in all of these polls. third place behind john kasich, the man he said should drop out of the race. >> i think these views are, in fact, compatible. one of the questions is if trump has to perform exceptionally well between now and the end of the primaries in order to get to 1237. the argument against a rigged system makes it powerful between now and the end of june and it gives him the best argument to get to 1237 or 1238. i think i'm with you, if he gets

to the end of june and he's not at 1237 you head to a convention as mark is talking about. then the question is i think the party doesn't care whether it looks good or doesn't. if the party wants to keep him from being the nominee he can make the argument ins the world about how he has the most votes. the argument in response will be you are a historically weak front-runner if you didn't get to a majority and we have these rules in place in which we have a contested convention, we have multiple ballots, et cetera, et cetera. that may be suicidal for the party but the people against trump think it's suicidal for trump to be the nominee. you can argue it either way. >> again just so we're clear here the argument -- and nicolle, you're making the same argument -- that to get to 1237 the best way to do that is talk about how rigged the system is and even after you think you got 1237, you keep blasted that the system is rigged and keep pounding away and then you get there and if he comes up 100 short, it will be hard for the

party to not give it to him. if he comes up 200, 300 short, that's a different thing. but also if you have ted cruz finishing in third place in a lot of these northeast primaries, makes it harder for ted cruz to say in a shakespearean is rhetoric -- "me, me, me, me, me, me". >> that's what he does before he speaks. >> he can't even beat john kasich in the northeast schlts that what he does? >> absolutely. it's complete disconnect from the person ted cruz. let's move to the democratic side. the new fox news poll -- what? i'm just speaking the truth. >> i'm picking up a disturbance in the force here. >> i say what you all -- it's not me and -- it's between him and like everybody, you all think it. >> i say it. >> wherever he speaks you all go like this.

>> she said it. >> and you cringe. you do the freeze phase. what do you call the stand organize resting -- i don't know, but it's like wherever he speaks all right, let's go to democrats now. new york has hillary clinton up 16 points 53% to bernie sanders 37%. that will be a clean sweep for her? >> well, we don't know. >> clinton has a double-digit lead in pennsylvania in the fox news poll, 49% to sanders 38%. >> let's talk about these two polls. surprised by the margin? >> i think he needs to go to rome. i think that's the way to close the gap. two-day trip to rome. >> that is pretty incredible, that trip. >> that looks like -- >> it's one poll. i think the race is closer than that but it is a diverse state and he had basically last week did not take full advantage of

winning wisconsin. he got in the a bunch of fights. >> do you agree with mark halperin that for bernie sanders to do better he needs to go to rome, new york, they have a big military facility, up there. >> he's been invited, right? >> rome, new york, yeah. >> i find the entire thing totally baffling. if the pope were there and the pope were going to meet with bernie sanders in rome, new york, more to vatican city, italy, i'd be all -- i'd totally understand it. in this context with a must-win new york primary to go to -- to leave the country to go anywhere other than the meet the pope himself makes no sense to me at all and -- bernie sanders is going to close to gap. every place he goes in campaign he is closes the gap or overtakes hillary clinton. he's sending a lot of time in this state. he's going to close the gap. you go away for two days, take away your biggest advantage which is sanders being on the ground. you go away and fall three points short in new york, are you going to look up and say

"that was a good move to go to italy?" i think he needs to do a teleconference in rome, new york. bernie sanders won there the wyoming caucuses saturday. sanders beat hillary clinton by 12 points 56% to 44%, notching his eighth win in the last nine nominating contests. it sounds like he's winning. >> he's won eight out of nine. he wins by 12 points. i would not do well as a democratic politician. he wins by 12 points, he may not pick up a single delegate. it's 7-6 with the remaining delegate to be decided later? sorry, that's a crushing victory. >> and i think with the super delegates that they have, i think she only has to win 30% -- she only has to get 30% of the vote in the remaining contest. talk about voters feeling like a system might be rigged. >> why are you even voting in wyoming? >> if you're driving in a car,

we've been talked about rigged systems. we're putting up a graphic. bernie sanders wins 56% to 44% in wyoming. the delegates rewarded hillary clinton 11, bernie sanders 7, why does the democratic party even have voting booths? this system is so rigged. >> they fall into line better than our voters do but i can see some of the same emotions boiling over at their convention. >> but we talk about voter turnout and how important it is to do your duty as a citizen. there's no reason any of those people voted in any of those states, right? >> what's the justification? >> these are the rules. >> that's not a good answer. >> i understand. but it's rigged. >> tell me why these people needed to go votes. >> it's not rigged. these are the rules. >> do the votes matter, mark halperin? do they count in some way? how? only in some parts of the country?

>> i don't think it's a good system but it's not like -- >> he won by 12 percentage points -- >> i don't think it's a good system. i'm just saying -- >> do you think the democrats and republicans change their delegate allotment processes after this cycle. >> only if the winner of the white house decides he or she wants to change it which is unlikely. these are the rules and -- >> i don't really -- that's not what we're asking. >> it's not like the cruz people and clinton people have fixed it or rigged it. >> that's fair. >> let's talk about the democrats for now. >> we didn't say that, though. >> here is a party who sends their activists out and have people chattering on tv, chattering on talk radio about voter disenfranchisement. if you make somebody show a picture of themselves. this same party tells voters to go straight to hell when they select somebody by 12 percentage points and end up letting the other candidate who lost by 12

percentage points win the most delegates. that by definition is voter disenfranchisement. so it's a rigged system on the democratic side, even worse than the republican side and i don't know why democratic voters put up with it. >> if you say those are the rules, i'm going to lunge at your neck. >> i agree with everything you said except i wouldn't say it's rigged. it's disenfranchisement, it's not one person one vote, but it's not rigged. >> what do you call it when voters going to the voting booth doesn't matter at all? >> a messed up system. >> that's a rigged -- >> it's not rigged. >> it's a system rigged against voters! it's a system rigged against people in go to voting booths. it's a system rigged against people in go out to caucuses it is a system that is rigged in favor of the rich and the powerful and the politically connected. bernie sanders wins by 12 percentage points.

he wins 56% to 44%. now let's look at the delegate counts. >> he didn't get any super delegates. or one, right? >> after winning by 12 percentage points -- >> he's losing. >> he loses wyoming where it counts by four delegates 11-7. john heilemann, if that is a system that is not rigged against voters and rigged in favor of the rich and powerful, please tell me one that. >> well, i don't understand this graphic so that's part of the -- >> that's the super delegates. >> there's a powerful argument that people in the democratic party have made some and should make, i think, that super delegates are a bad idea and this the idea that the party should not have people who are allowed to, that you should only have pledged delegates and they should be aligned with the will of the people. that's a powerful argument. as mark says, it isn't the system current in place right now. right now the democratic party

decided long ago. >> why are they disenfranchising the voters? don't they care, one person, one vote in isn't that what we hear, one person, one vote. >> the system was designed a long time ago to prevent things like george mcgovern happening again. so there are people elected -- mostly elected officials who the party says you are allowed to choose whoever you want. so buck against that system -- i'm not a democrat. >> but why did those people vote, john heilemann. >> can you imagine if it were republicans? can you imagine if it were republicans that were say, listen, you know what -- >> they'd all be in witness protection. >> the people aren't smart enough to be able to pick the nominee, is we're going to have super delegates. we're going to get the richest, most powerful, most politically connected people to rig the process. in that were the case, jeb bush would still be in first place. >> they would be in witness protection.

there are a not a lot of things to be relieved about in this cycle, that we don't have super delegates is one thing i feel relieved about. it's just -- i know these are the rules and i've been the convention and i know the rules can seem arcane, but this is a gut cycle and at a gut level when you have to communications job of explaining these are the arcane rules as they've been crafted to prevent something that happened in the '60s from happening in 2016, that's an impossible communications challenge and both the democratic convention and the republican convention in my opinion are facing impossible communications challenges. impossible. >> wait until the trumps start challenging the seating of delegations, wait until that happens. then you see a big debate about the rules. >> still ahead on "morning joe," we showed you trump up big in new york and pennsylvania. we values new numbers about how he might size up against hillary clinton in the general election. plus, president obama goes to bat for his former secretary of state.

he talks about "carelessness" and explains the difference between "classified" and "classified." we'll hear him explain that ahead. first, here's bill karins with a check on the forecast, bill. >> you didn't like the fact that april is colder than march,ly? >> really sucks. >> how does the next week look? >> we're turning the corner on the snow, no snow in the forecast and we're going to watch warmer temperatures. if you're leaving this morning in areas of the northeast, there's light rain, the warmer air is moving in so it's cloudy and drizzly out there so bring the umbrella. the other story will be severe weather. we're in the peak of our season yesterday, we had large hail reported in texas and oklahoma, enough to cover the ground completely and now we'll watch these storms dying off. what will happen after the storms pass through little rock and southern missouri, we get round two this afternoon. about 13 million people at risk of severe storms. we could have isolated tornados. i don't think we'll see too many of the big huge destructive

ones. it only takes one little one to do significant damage. this one is most likely shreveport to little rock. the timing would be typical, late afternoon into the evening forming over towards the louisiana/texas border and souther portions of arkansas. the other thing today for you lovely red sox fans, opening day at fenway park, 59 degrees, slight chance of showers but much better chance than what you experienced with the cold temperatures. new york city has light showers around on and off during the day today. warmer temperatures in the 60s the rest of the week. that's more like april. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back.

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the point that i was making -- which is absolutely correct -- is that if you look at where she is getting her money, from wall street and other powerful special interests, she voted for the war, she cited henry kisser. >> a sense as a model for her, i think shows issues will tell the american people that in many respects she may have the experience to be president of

the united states, no one can argue that, but in terms of her judgment, something is clearly lacking. what i said is that a candidate like secretary clinton who voted for the disastrous war in iraq, who has supported every disastrous trade agreement which has cost us millions of decent-paying jobs and who receives incredible amounts of money, we're talking about tens of millions of dollars through her super pac from every special interest that you can think of and from the billionaire class, you know, i have my doubts about what kind of president she would make. >> wow. sanders on the attack on the issues and on what kind of president hillary clinton would be. do you think it's fair game or is he getting deeply personal. >> on his first move on fox news sunday since he moved into the oval office the president also jumped into this hillary clinton

debate which sort of plays into what bernie was suggesting which is -- >> kind of does. >> -- there is a problem with her judgment so i'm curious. what does everybody think -- what do you think about bernie saying there's something wrong with there? >> that's the essence of his argument against her and he's entitled to make it. >> that's his toughest take, just saying there is something wrong with her judgment. >> i think he's got to -- he has to go there now because the other arguments, the arguments on substance, he's been making those arguments consistently, the distinctions on trade or wall street reform or the economy, he's been making the arguments in a tough contrasty way for months. he's short and he's got to do something to clang the dynamic or he's going to fall short in this nomination fight so he has to take the next step and it's been there all the time. it's just he's always seemed

like he was holding himself back from taking that next step and now he's gone there. >> he wants to show the difference between him and hillary clinton and hillary clinton at the same time has to be very careful. she said i think i don't want to say anything bad about him. because, of course, if she alienates his followers, that's going to be hard for her. if she does win to get those people back. president obama stood by his former secretary of state as we mentioned and guaranteed she would be treat nod differently when it comes to investigations, even if she ends up being the party's nominee. >> hillary clinton was an outstanding secretary of state. she would never intentionally put america in any kind of jeopardy and what i also know -- because i handle a lot of classified information -- is that there are -- there's classified and then there's classifie classified. there's stuff that is really top secret top secret and there's stuff that is being presented to the president or the secretary

of state that you might not want on the transom or going out over the wire but is basically stuff that you could get in open source. i can't to believe she has not jeopardized america's national security. now, what i've also said is that -- and she's acknowledged -- that there's a carelessness in terms of managing e-mails that she has owned and she recognized. but i also think it's important to keep this in perspective. >> can you guarantee to the american people? can you direct the justice department to say hillary clinton will be treated as the evidence goes, she will not be in any way protected. >> i can guarantee that. and i can guarantee that not because i give attorney general lynch a

institutionally how we've always operated. i do not talk to the attorney general about pending investigations. i do not talk to fbi directors about pending investigations. the -- we have a strict line and always have maintained it. >> so just to button this up -- >> i guarantee it. i guarantee that there is no political influence in any investigation conducted by the justice department or the fbi, not just in this case but in any case. full stop, period. >> wait. can you guys believe what you just heard? >> he said "believe me." like someone else. >> he said he wasn't going to talk to the attorney general about the pending investigation, but he just did, as he did back in october when he said no national security issues here, nothing to see move along.

the fbi complained, there was a "new york times" article back in october saying the president of the united states should really let us finish our investigation before he starts drawing conclusions that we have scores of agents studying on. and he just did it again. and then in the same interview, mark halperin, said "but i'm not talking to my attorney general about it." talk about a rigged process. >> it seemed ill-advised to say -- [ laughter ] >> these are the rules. >> i got no connection to this. >> he should just say i didn't talk about it and leave it to the justice department. i don't know why he went on at such length defending her. in theory he shouldn't know the facts of the case. >> exactly. but he suggested in october and again this weekend john heilemann that he knows the facts of the case.

>> he has drawn the ultimate conclusion where he said national security is not jeopardized. that's why the fbi is putting -- i don't know, is it 40? 50? 60? we've heard over a hundred. but put on scores of people to investigate this and then the guy that at the end of the day runs the entire government says "there's nothing to see here." >> in "alice in wonderland" we call it verdict first. >> verdict first. >> while at the same time he says "i guarantee there's going to be a fair investigation." >> you're gonna like the way you look. >> by saying this, he's undermining if the attorney general decides that there's no problem he's undermining that conclusion by having pre-judged it. he's also just in a purely political context, he's putting his finger on the scale -- >> campaigning for hillary. may as well endorse her. >> if i were a bernie sanders supporter i would not appreciate

the president of the united states doing something that as bernie sanders criticizes her judgment on the e-mail thing having the president weigh in on her side on national television if i were a bernie sanders supporter. what. >> why doesn't he just endorse her. >> and nicolle, what if you were the director of the fbi and you had been killing yourself to run a fair investigation and twice the president of the united states has made a fool of you by saying his investigation doesn't matter because the scales -- the lady isn't blindfolded, i'm tipping the scales right now as the guy that runs this government telling you no problems at all. no national security problems at all. >> and i don't know if his day shapes up like george w. bush's, but the first person george w. bush saw in the morning was the fbi director so i don't know how that's going to go this morning. as a staffer, i would have prepared him for the question by saying i know hillary clinton, i know what kind of person she is, i think she has good judgment and i would have told him to leave the investigation alone.

so i don't know if he got that advice and ignored it. i don't know if he got requests from the clinton campaign to throw her a lifeline, she's lost eight of the last nine contests but you go back to the backdrop on which the campaign is being waged and it certainly felt like someone putting their finger on the scale for someone for whom the investigation has not been wrapped up. >> a criminal investigation is being rigged. >> for either him or her. >> for whatever it's worth, vice news reported after the state department released more than 30,000 of clinton's e-mail, there were 22 that were not released because they were deemed top secret and it would cause "exceptionally grave damage" to national security if disclosed. >> so take what barack obama said, mark halperin, said i don't think she did anything that impacted national security. the president's own state department said "i know classified and then i know

classified." no, the state department said there are 22 e-mails that if released would cause "exceptionally grave damage to america's national security. "how does the president go out and say nothing. does the president -- i mean are the president's standards that much lower when it comes to america's national security than his own state department? >> it's similar to her cavalier attitude about the way she handled secrets and anyone in the government shares the view there's overclassification but i agree with nicolle, i don't understand why he's commenting on it. he's making the case, it's as if he's the clinton campaigns communication director in trying to exonerate her before the investigation is completed. he's the last person in the world who should be doing it. >> especially, isn't this the same president, john heilemann,

that wanted to throw reporters in jail and was more aggressive with reporters about classified secrets being leaked than any president and this is the president that's saying no big deal when the state department is saying that there are at least 22 e-mails that would cause "exceptionally grave damage to america's national security if released." if a reporter passed that information on, this president would have them in jail already. >> the inconsistencies there are pretty profound and i think, again, the ill advisability of his commenting on this is just -- again, on multiple levels something he should not be talking about. he should not be talking about it. >> a rigged system. >> the people versus the powerful. >> well, the powerful will win. there are super delegates. >> there is a rigged system because if a reporter had done this, let's say, oh, i don't know, worked for the a.p. or

somewhere else and had classified information like this and passed it along through a server that was not secured, that reporter would be in jail. under this president, that reporter would be in jail. >> so the four words of the day are. >> rigged, rigged, rigged, rigged? >> the system is rigged. coming up, the "boston globe's" subtle approach to the possibility of a trump presidency. that's ahead in the must-written opinion pages. we'll be right back. safety doesn't come in a box. it's not a banner that goes on a wall. it's not something you do now and then. or when it's convenient. at bp, it's training and retraining in state-of-the-art simulators so we're better prepared for any situation. it's giving offshore teams support from onshore experts, so we have extra sets of eyes on our wells.

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up next, the "boston globe" turns heads with its sunday edition. plus, how hillary clinton stacks up against donald trump, including when it comes to making america great again. some eye-opening new numbers from the associated press when we come right back.

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(vo) go national. go like a pro. how about that stupid "boston globe"? it's worthless, it sold for a dollar. the whole front page they made up a story that trump -- they pretended trump is the president and they made up the whole front pages of make believe stories which is really no different from the whole paper for the whole thing. i mean, the whole thing is made up. >> well, yesterday the "boston globe" put a fake front page on a section of its sunday paper with a spoof edition purporting the show the news if donald trump were president.

headlines included "deportations to begin. president trump calls for tripling of ice force, riots extended, markets sink as trade war looms." below the fold warned "u.s. soldiers refuse orders to kill isis families. new libel law targets absolute scum in press." and a story about trump comparing the chinese president's wife to his new pet shar-pei. >> with us now from washington, we have white house correspondent for the associated press julie pace. julie, you can comment on whatever you want to comment on today. the theme of the day -- >> comment on that. >> the word for the day is "rigged." but let's talk about what your -- first of all, you obviously have worked around the white house for quite some time. were you surprised, as we were, that the president weighed in as aggressively as he did saying that he was sure no national

security was jeopardized. >> i actually wasn't surprised given his past public comments on this. i completely understand the concerns about him weighing in that your panel has been talking about but i wasn't surprised. i think this is part of a pattern that we're seeing with president obama in this election where he is all but endorsing hillary clinton and making it very clear where he stands and position himself as someone who is going to be an active defender of her going forward through november. >> let's look at some a.p. numbers. mika, you want to go through them? >> we have domestic issues, who do you trust more to handle. making america great again clinton 33%, trump 28%, neither, 30%. on the economy, clinton 36, trump 35, neither 17. >> on the economy pretty much

split. on job creation pretty much split, immigration, hillary has the lead there but julie i would i would guess on economic issues quite a few americans would be surprised hillary clinton and donald trump all seem to be tied within the margin of error. >> if you're donald trump, the one area in our poll that you can take solace is n is that on the economy, which voters consistently rank as if not their top issue one of their top issues going into the election, he is virtually tied with hillary clinton. the problem for him comes on pretty much every other issue, on immigration, health care, nominating supreme court justices, handing the threat from isis, managing the u.s. image abroad he's trailing her fairly significantly. but i would point out that we are only in april and the other thing this poll shows is that there are upwards of 20% or 30% of americans who either haven't made a decision on who they think is best positioned to

handle these issues or at this point say neither. so there is room to grow. and the trump campaign recognizes that. you'll see him giving policy speeches in the coming weeks to close this gap. >> nicolle, if i were on the trump campaign and looking at all the chaos that has preceded him over the past three weeks and i was pretty much within the margin of error on the threat of isis and protecting the country -- >> these are much better numbers for him than what has been driving the narrative which is his unelectability in a general election matchup this is what would seize upon and drive home. we talked about how off message he is, this shows in stark relief how his messages if he focuses on trade and the threat of isis he has the opportunity to turn it around.

so you ha >> so you have the threat of isis, protecting the countries and creating jobs and growing the economy. much better than any of us would have suspected. >> even hillary clinton's strategists will tell you she is vulnerable a strong challenge from the right republican those numbers suggest almost any republican could be well positioned. that donald trump can improve those numbers but he needs to improve his standing with voters if he's going to be the nominee. >> i think the problem for him is going to be not -- his probl problems don't relate to issues, they relate to behavior and suitability in the oval office. on a lot of issues trump will be competitive the question is whether -- >> the package. >> the full package is accept to believe voters up for grabs. the way he's behaved of late, not the last 48 hours but the last three or four months, will be a problem for him in a general election. >> julie, as we're talking about image as opposed to particular

issues the two numbers that stick out as the glaring weaknesses play to that. one, america's image abroad. hillary clinton doubling donald trump 48% to 21% and gender equality 55%, 12% trump which plays into the fact that demographics are standing in his way in the fall more than anything else whether where you're talking about hispanics or women. >> if you look at the first part of the poll we released that looked at his temperament and the public's view of him generally, 70% they had an unfavorable view of donald trump and it really just crossed the spectrum men, women, young people, old people. yes, these numbers on issues show that he does have an opportunity in a general election matchup with hillary clinton but john is right. his real weakness is going to be that he is not viewed favorably

at this point by a vast majority of americans. they may think he could do as good a job as hillary clinton on the economy but if they don't like him that may be a hard barrier for him to cross over. >> julie pace, thank you. >> thank you, julie. >> i'm still stuck on the "boston globe" spoof front page. has that been done before? are they doing the other candidates? >> that's the kind of thing college newspapers do after a lot of bong hits usually like at 3:00 in the morning. i've never seen that done in a professional newspaper before and published. >> okay. all right. >> they would just take days off. that would have been a great april's fools -- >> after his new york values comments, why did ted cruz make a point of campaigning in the bronx? we'll get one explanation when "morning joe" comes right back. ? we're good. okay... what if a million people download the new app? we're good. five million? good. we scale on demand. hybrid infrastructure, boom. ok. what if 30 million people download the app?

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still ahead on "morning joe," donald trump slams the primary system after getting outhustled by ted cruz in the hunt for delegates with one trump strategist accusing the cruz campaign of using "gestapo tactics." meanwhile, bernie sanders picked up his eighth win in a row only to find out it didn't seem to matter. >> doesn't matter. the voting doesn't count on the democratic side. >> when they pull the lever, is that good exercise? >> very good exercise. >> otherwise there was no point to vote. >> they're trying to make the democratic party -- >> although it's better to do it with slot machines in vegas. >> might as well, it would have the same impact on who gets the

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gosh, new york has been-day-old this week, hasn't it? in fact, my head is getting chilly, i think i better put on my favorite hat that i've worn so many times over the years. [ laughter ] you know what my favorite part of new york is? the subway. i love it and i am comfortable riding it. in fact, here's me using it earlier today. >> the new york city subsway the best way to get around. ow. it's been a while. is this a working metro card?

is it? i'll just go in the old-fashioned way because -- [ laughter ] i'll take a cab. cab is the best way to get around. oops, there's my alarm, time to turn my hat around. there we go. god, love those new york meats! welcome back to "morning joe," it's monday, april 11. with us we have managing editor of bloomberg politics john heilemann, chair of the department of african-american studies at princeton university, eddie glaude, jr., editor of the weekly standard and jon meacham. good to have you on board. >> so mr. meacham, we talked about a disconnect between the establishment and voters and about how the system to many

americans seems rigged and we showed the democratic votes, it showed bernie sanders winning a caucus 56% to 44% and then showed it was actually hillary clinton that got the most delegates by a good bit because of the super delegates. and then we have donald trump on the other side running away with victories in states like south carolina and then there are headline headlines saying these delegates have been flipped and turned to go to the other candidates. we understand these are the rules, we understand this is the system that's set up, we understand that donald trump complaining about that could be classified as whining. but doesn't this just play into bernie sanders and donald trump's argument that the system is, in fact, rigged? >> absolutely.

the gulf between the establishment or the experienced political class and the voters -- let's remember, these are people who were actually voting and responding to polls so there's probably another group that's more disenchanted that's not bothering to vote. but it's as profound as any time i can remember going back to the 19th century where people don't faith in traditional political institutions to deliver on the central promise of american life which was that we may not have equality out outcome but we're supposed to have equality of opportunity and there's a fundamental disconnect in the country that's been driving our politics now for a long time in a subtle way and probably really since last june or so when trump got involved it became the central organizing principle of our politics. >> and, eddie, we've been told by the smart guys and the smart women that as the process moved

along americans would become more mature and they would move to establishment candidates and yet on the republican side you have donald trump up by 25% 30,% in new york and pennsylvania and on the democratic side, bernie sanders just won his eighth contest in a row. his eighth contest in a row. >> i think this is a reflection of an overall cynicism, not only about the political process but about the state of american life. i mean, we look at that big piece in the "washington post" today about the new divide in america with regards to this. so the consequences of things big rigged is also in terms of delegate counts. >> it's a stunning article in the "post." >> we see american white women dying earlier. we've seen my colleagues at princeton talking about american white men without high school educations dying earlier. we already know -- >> their life expectancy for

less educated white men is actually shortening. now this "washington post" article shows the same thing is happening for white women. >> and we already know that african-american men and women are dying earlier and what's interesting is that this is not a matter of mortality, it's a matter of morbidity. that is to say there's just overall -- just the quality of life is deteriorating. so when we talk about things big rigged, we're not just talking about the political process, not just delegate counts. we're talking about the effects of the new economy on the quality of life of americans across the board so this is not about a matter of maturing and siding with the political class. this is about -- these are opinions that reflect people's day to day lives. >> an economy that we've been talking about, me a a, here for years now that is getting more and more disconnected with working class, middle-class

americans and the stat we've used at least for three or four years that in real dollars, average wages have declined since 1973. since 1973. >> over the past deck is cade, data has come out recently that our children, the next generation, will not do as well as this one. and that's new as well. that's depressing. >> and that's what's driving -- >> that's not america. >> what's driving the bernie crowds, what's driving the trump crowds? i think this answers the question. >> there's not an establishment in the country that's in gooe d with the vast majority of people in the country. whether it's the business establishment, the media establishment, the religious establishment, all of it for the last 20 years the sense of the establishment not representing the views of the vast majority of americans has been growing and it's tipped over to the point where the two -- where the leading presidential candidate on the republican side and the candidate on the democratic side

who has been driving the argument -- although he's slightly behind -- are now the candidates who are giving voice to that profound and sweeping senseover frustration that don't represent the views of most people. >> i would argue it'sreality. it's the data, the numbers. >> and we have to ask ourself what is is the vision of the world that will emerge from this sense of precariousness. >> i'm going write this one down. >> i just got hives. >> this sense of precariousness. >> precarety? >> precarety. >> thank you, professor. >> remember we were eating and i said -- my sandwich was falling about, i said there seems to be precarity. there's a sense so precarity to this ham sandwich. >> seriously, though, folks are making political decisions based

upon the sense of that life isn't what it seems to be. >> that's what kmika and i saw n new hampshire and we tried to explain this a couple of times. >> at the trump rally. >> when we worked out, we weren't looking at donald trump, we were looking at the people from trying to figure out why they came out in the middle of a snowstorm to watch this billionaire speak. a lot of working class americans. they put on jackets they probably hadn't worn in 20 years because they felt that's what they were supposed to do and they went out and you see a different crowd, a younger crowd going out to the bernie crowds. >> and responding to many people in the political establishment

that say you can't go out running for president on the that's the core of the bernie sanders message. he's drawing crowds are many thousands of people with whom the message of revolution is resonant. that kind of language would have been considered dangerous or too far in our political system just a couple cycles ago now he is the most -- apart from donald trump -- the candidate -- more than trump in terms of consistently now drawing clouds will are 8,000, 10,000, 14,000. >> 18,000. >> they hear "revolution" and they come. >> and here's bernie sanders over the weekend talking about why voters need to think about who they vote for. take a look. >> the point that i was making -- which is absolutely correct -- is that if you look at where she is getting her money from wall street and other powerful special interest s she voted for the war, she cited henry kissinger in a sense as a model for her, i think those

issues will tell the american people that in many respects she may have the experience to be president of the united states, no one can argue that, but in terms of judgment something is lack i lacking what i said is a candidate like secretary clinton who has supported every disastrous trade agreement which has cost us millions of decent-paying jobs and who receives incredible amounts of money, we're talking about tens of millions of dollars through her super pac from every special interest that you can think of and from the billionaire class, you know i have my doubts about what kind of president she would make. >> is that fair? >> well, i think one way to read it is that there's a sense in which something follows from her ideolo ideology. what would follow from her commitments. how will it address what we've been talking about?

the fact that everything seems rigged or this the status quo? voting for hillary clinton, would this be doubling down on what has happened and continues to happen? i think what bernie sanders represents and what we see around the excitement around his campaign is a battle over the soul of the democratic party and i think the challenge of those young folks to bill clinton in philadelphia, his so-called mea culpa at penn state, all of this is really about challenging the direction of the democratic party, challenging that it defends the most vulnerable in our society. >> and jon meacham, look at those people. for all of the people out there coming to these events, whether it's on the democratic side with bernie sanders or the republican side with donald trump it is an outright rejection of the bush/clinton era that we have

been in now for a quarter of a century where they feel like the system is rigged. doesn't matter whether it's bill clinton or george w. bush or even barack obama, they know if a trade deal comes up it doesn't matter what they said in the campaigns, bill clinton always talked about human rights abuses in china. got elected, he started doing business immediately just like george h.w. bush with china. barack obama, you always know that on free trade the presidents are going to all go to one position at the end of the day on war they usually move to the same position, most people feel, again, like the system is rigged and i just wonder, you've been predicting the breakup of the 150 year duopoly between the republicans and the democrats in this country. are we seeing that right now? is it coming apart at the seams? >> well, certainly ideologically, intellectually

and emotionally i think the parties are cracking up. whether structurally that follows because of the stranglehold the established parties have on things as fundamental as ballot access is a longer story but we wouldn't be having this conversation with this level of specificity and, indeed, passion, if there weren't stresses and strains on this. the parties have not really changed in a fundamental way since the mid-60s and the battles over civil rights. particularly in the democratic party but also the republican party, there's not a consensus about globalization and its impact and parties reconfigure, realign when there is not a majority consensus about the central issue of our time, whether it was the whigs and slavery in the 19th century or civil rights in the middle of

the 20th century and now globalization it's hard to imagine two more different accents in american life than ross perot and bernie sanders but there's but they're close in their messaging when i hear senator sanders say things like i know i don't have experience -- the question may be one of judgment. remember ross perot's best line in 1992 which was not dissimilar in representing a discomfort with globalization was, you know, no i don't have experience running up a $2 trillion debt. and these messages are resonating in in part not just emotionally but intellectually, too. >> new polls show donald trump with a large lead over his opponents. in the two of the states up next for voting. in new york, a fox news poll shows trump leading by 32 points. 54% to john kasich's 22%. ted cruz at 15% and in

pennsylvania trump has a 26-point advantage ahead of kasich, 48% to 22%. cruz in third at 20%. michael warren, your latest column explains why ted cruz has spent time campaigning in the bronx, a place where he's not necessarily popular and can i argue just a little awkward at times? "in an interview with the weekly standard, ted cruz explained he went to the bronx to talk about small businesses and meet up with a group of 40 local pastors. the latter reason is more compelling.

so michael what could happen in nancy pelosi's district, in california, could also happen in the bronx. so you're saying basically you get the same number of delegates by winning those 295 votes in the bronx as you would get in a very republican area in the center of long island. >> that's absolutely right. those are the rules of the game and ted cruz has proven to be much more adept and much smarter about playing within the rules of the game. this is the way it is in new york. it's the way it is in california as you just mentioned, some of these other states. they have different rules and

cruz more so than john kasich and more so than donald trump has proven he and his team know those rules better. i want to push back against what most of the panel and you folks are saying about what this says about donald trump's message that the system is rigged. i don't think that's donald trump's main message. it's his message when he loses, he says, oh, the system is rigged. when he doesn't win the delegates, but his big message, i think is more that the elites, the establishment, whatever you want to call them, they're not smart enough to know to fix a system that's rigged against america. i'm smart enough, i, donald trump, am smart enough to rig it in our favor, in america's favor and i think this cuts against donald trump's message, his central message that he has the best people, he knows what to do. if he can't even play by these rules that everybody knew beforehand, i think a rigged system would be if the rules were hidden to many of the players or the the people but the rules were known to donald trump just like they were known

to any of the other campaigns and so i just -- i think that's important to remember when we talk about new york and these very democratic districts getting the same number of delegates. maybe it's not fair, maybe it's something that needs to be changed but let's not act like everybody didn't already know this going into it. >> and we did say that before. we also said before, though, it helps him pr wise if he goes through south carolina and he's somehow smart enough to destroy the entire political establishment in south carolina, humiliate the sitting governor there, humiliate a lot of other people there and then a month and a half later you have people reading stories going, "oh, wait a second, he may not end up getting the delegates." it's like the delegate count we showed from wyoming where you have the voters go out and vote and then you have the political class go out and decide the voters vote doesn't count. now you can say what you want to say about that system, i'm just

talking pr wise. if i'm running an insurgent campaign then i have got my message from now through the conventio convention. >> i agree with you on the pr and that part of the argument but i will say there's an irony here that, you know, this idea that the will of the people in a voting primary and then these undemocratic conventions, you know who in republican politics pushes for these undemocratic so-called undemocratic conventions and this way to pick delegates are the insurgent candidates. thiss a vestia vestige of the r paul movements to have these conventions in virginia and colorado so it's an irony that the insurgent candidate, donald trump, is losing in contests that are supposed to be beneficial to him. >> we're scratching our heads here, at least mika and i are, on the democratic side that you have -- you have all these super delegates that rig the process before it begins.

as i i have said before, if republicans had super delegates, jeb bush would still be in the race because he would have had 500 delegates up front. it wouldn't have mattered how badly he did in the early states but the absurdity of this is sanders has won eight in a row. he destroyed hillary clinton in wyoming and he lost by four delegates. >> that's these arcane rules, john mentioned the case of mcgovern, there's also the 1980 convention with carter and kin di and super delegates playing this role to make sure that they have a voice and who's going to be representing the party. >> the establish ment. >> and i think firm that 1908 convention there was a clash between the kennedy folks and feminists and congresswoman geraldine ferraro stepped in to make sure the situation would at least approximate fairness.

what we snow the process is weighted if we don't want to use the word rigged. it's certainly weighted to the establishment to those folks who are empowered at their own pace so as we say back home in mississippi, it is what it is until it aunt. >> the "weekly standard's" michael warren, thank you very much. still ahead, kristen welker joins our political round table. also ahead, the head of the cia draws a line in the sand when it comes to enhanced interrogation techniques no matter who is president. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. it's more than a network and the cloud. it's reliable uptime. and multi-layered security. it's how you stay connected to each other and to your customers. with centurylink you get advanced technology solutions, including an industry leading broadband network, and cloud and hosting services - all with dedicated, responsive support. with centurylink as your trusted technology partner, you're free to focus on growing your business.

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i used to like that song. over the weekend, bernie sanders also went on the attack against former president bill clinton over an exchange he had with black lives matter protesters last week. during a back-and-forth at an event in philadelphia, the former president defended his 1994 crime bill as well as his wife's use of the term super predators to refer to violent gang members as she helped push for the bill's passage. >> what are your thoughts about

what he said, senator sanders? >> unacceptable. [ applause ] >> i think we all know what this term meant in the context that it was said years ago. we know who they were talking about. >> black people! >> that's exactly right. that's who it was. and i think that the president owes the american people an apology for trying to defend what is indefensible. >> joining us now, nbc news white house correspondent kristen welker who is covering the clinton campaign. this has been a debate that has been going back and forth since bill clinton made those comments that he almost apologized for. >> he walked up to the line of apologizing but didn't quite apologize. i think this speaks to the broader question about does bill clinton help or hurt secretary

clinton's campaign, the clinton campaign insists he's still the best person to speak to her record and what it takes to be president but this is an issue that continues to, i think, be a challenge for her campaign, one sanders campaign official describes that moment as useful because, of course, senator sanders has struggled with african-american voters. that gave him a bit of an opening to reach out and say i'm listening to your problems right now. >> it gave him an opening to say what is so, i guess, connective between his platform and the needs and the issues that are important to african-americans. he has some policies in mind and criminal justice reform in mind that really does appeal to offer voters but no way to get to them. >> and let's be clear. president clinton didn't tell the truth. we know that the 1994 crime bill

wasn't the reason why crime was going down. we know that welfare reform in some ways welfare reform legislation actually increased extreme poverty, that 1.6 million households fell into extreme poverty as a result of that legislation in terms of the gaps, in terms of those who didn't have work and there's a sense in which his mea culpa the next day, he said i almost wanted to apologize but right after he said that, we need to listen, the passionate plea, what did he say right after that? he went back to the very claim that now african-americans think that they're -- the number one threat are police officers but i knew when i signed that crime bill that the number one threat were these gang folk who were hopping up teenager, giving them guns to kill other teenagers. that's the language that was used to justify the crime bill. >> but did bill clinton have a point? does he have a point that the problems aren't all from police officers that are on the prowl

looking for young black men to kill, that there's also a major problem inside the community and if you look at gang violence not only in '49 but also today in chicago there are a lot of black people killing a lot of black people and bill clinton's point was -- and by the way i never defend bill clinton -- >> i'm kind of stunned. >> no, but i -- this is a very important conversation i think for us to have as a country but bill clinton would say i have a point here that the greatest threat if you look at pure numbers to the life of black people in america from being killed come from other black people. >> and the same thing could hold true for white people. so the notion of black-on-black crime is a rhetorical device that emerged in the context of the '70s and '80s to -- >> but it's very real in chicago. >> but white on white crime -- >> but aren't the numbers much worse? let's say for instance in chicago you don't have white people every weekend shooting

other white people -- >> baltimore. >> -- in the suburbs of chicago and if you did, oh, my god, the world would come to an end and we would have -- everybody would be live there for the next three months. >> so let's bracket -- i don't want to hog the conversation. but let's bracket for a moment the conversation around black-on-black crime and talk specifically about the formulation around gangs that he was using to justify to sign the crime bill and that language was part of a broader discourse out of which the super predator language comes from. and this is really about social science data supposedly driving the claim -- >> by the way, just to clarify as you continue, who was she talking about when she said "super predators"? >> that was a certain deception of a certain kind of violent criminal. >> she said she was talking about the drug dealers and the drug cartels. to be fair. and i think bill clinton was saying let's remember what was happening in 1994 when this piece of legislation passed.

by the way, it passed with bipartisan support and senator sanders supported the legislation as well and i think that that was part of why he got so defensive? if you look at the fallout of the crime bill, the results are complicated. some people would argue obviously he's acknowledged it created and added to the mass incarceration but it did do some things to promote community policing and to sorts of things as well. but what was stunning about that moment is it was very personal for him. he was defending his record and his wife and we see him go off message when he feels like it's a personal attack. >> so part of what i would want to do is kind of -- let's parse it out. you rear right, the crime bill this omnibus legislation, all the things that were part of it, there were good components and other components and he said the next day there are some parts of the crime bill we can not justify. he made that claim. but part of what i wanted to -- what i want to point out is the kindover -- let's say

janus-faced nature. on the one hand i almost want to apologize but on the other kind he engage in the very rhetoric. >> that's bill clinton. >> and what i want to say. let's be very clear. not only did the great recession of 2008 wipe out almost all the gangs in the african-american community of the 1990s, it might have also shattered the illusions of the 1990s as well. so bill clinton might not get the pass he's gotten before. >> jon meacham, you want to chime in before we go to break. >> well, i think this is in political terms this is also hugely important because remember one of the pillars on which the democratic revival of the 1990s was built was being tough on crime and moving beyond what was portrayed as the great society excesses of the late '60s and '70s so there's an entire political generation that to some extent was built on the

argument that was unfolding yet again last week in the democratic primary. >> jon, you and i saw this in the south. democratic governors would get elected and they would be tough on crime, just to be blunt. i was commenting on this in high school watching it. a democratic governor would be first to execute somebody because if they could brag that they were executing people in the electric chair in florida or elsewhere, that would give them the cred to be tough enough on these other issues where the they might be more pregnantive than t -- progressive than the rest of their states but you can go state by state by state by state across the south where the death penalty came back into effect and if you were a white moderate democratic governor in the late '70s and '80s, that's what you did. >> my colleague at princeton has written an extraordinary book

entitled "the first civil right, how liberals built prison america." and what she's talking about is not only expansion of capital offenses, she's talking about mandatory minimums, she's talking about three strikes you're out legislation. she also identifies and i think is right to identify vice president biden's role in this and as well as president clinton's role in some ways expanding -- >> what did bill clinton who was it bill clinton rushed back to arkansas? >> ricky ray rector. >> here's what's not fair to the clintons. we're having a subtle and nuanced conversation here where people are allowed to slightly misspeak and correct themselves. the clintons aren't allowed to do that. he was commenting over several days of very complicated things. he spoke for ten minutes and people seize on things. part of why hillary clinton is not as good a candidate as she'd like that be is she so worried about saying one thing that will be seized on for two weeks. so what are we getting wrong? >> we're not there and senator sanders is increasingly subjected to this and so are the republicans. our political media culture is

not just forgiving enough of what the candidates and in the case of bill clinton candidates' spouse say about freighted issues. >> but bunk, if you're going to apologize, apologize. if you're not going to apologize, don't apologize but don't say -- i almost want to apologi apologize. >> he knows full well if he apologizes it creates a separate storm and he didn't feel he needed a full-throated apology, he felt ambivalent which i think was the right posture. >> i think it underscores the generational divide here as well. he's talking about defending his policy from the '90s and it speaks to secretary clinton's challenge in connecting to younger voters. this is an issue that african-americans, particularly young african-americans care about and are fighting for and the challenge in that moment was he wasn't listening to them and that's why you still have this divide, younger voters including african-americans tend to be supporting senator sanders. so it's something she'll have to reckon with before the general.

>> nbc's kristen welker, thank you, professor eddie glaude, jr., thank you very much. investigations into the brussels terror attacks. why it may have been paris that was supposed to be isis' next target. bill neely brings us the latest from the belgian capital ahead. ♪jake reeseday to fee"♪ ♪jake reese, "day to feel alive"♪ ♪jake reese, "day to feel alive"♪

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coming up, the scenario

under which the head of the cia says he would di pefy a direct order from the president of the united states. that's next on "morning joe."

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being their majestic selves. inspiring the next generation of people to love them as you do. now to the new developments in the terror attacks on brussels. belgian officials made six more arrests over the weekend, one of them, 31-year-old mohamed abrini who prosecutors say confessed to being the mystery man in the hat who helped deliver explosives to the brussels airport. nbc news chief global correspondent bill neely has the latest from belgium. bill? >> reporter: good morning, guys. after a weekend of startling revelations, not least for the families of the victims of the brussels bombings. people like the schultz family of kentucky who buried justin and stephanie schultz on friday. they were killed at the airport here. because they learned that their loved ones was not really meant to be the target, at least they were not the prime target of the

isis bombers. they haven't dropped their guns and they haven't dropped their guard in belgium. even after a weekend declaring judicial success, prosecutor charging this man, mohamed abrini, with mass murder, in both brussels and paris. and describing an extraordinary confession. they say he admits to being the man in the hat at an airport bombing that he says wasn't meant to happen. prosecutors say he told them france was the intended target, a second hit after the paris massacres but the arrest of the paris bombers salah abdeslam surprised isis and rushed them into an attack on belgium. so instead of bombing this district in paris, they left their apartment and bombed brussels airport. in this apartment, police found 30 pounds of the explosive tatp

and around 50 gallons of explosive material. but the gang had already used four times that amount in the bomb they built here. so where did it come from and who supplied it? those questions have never been answered and the police can't yet answer the public's questions. is it over or are there more killers on the loose? so they have heightened the fears of attacks, and not just here but britain and germany are on a high state of alert. as isis is squeezed in iraq and syria, fears grow they might launch some other attack, another atrocity in europe or the u.s. now to the question of enhanced interrogation in the campaign of the white house. donald trump said he'd use waterboarding and a hell of a

lot worse in terror investigations and ted cruz says he doesn't see widespread use but would be open to waterboarding. but in an nbc news exclusive, cia director john brennan said the agency won't engage in harsh interrogation practices even if ordered by the next president. >> i would not agree to having any cia officer carrying out waterboarding again. >> yeah, we're not going to. the stupidity that surrounds this topic. what year is this? 2016? america waterboarded three people. the level of stupidity, the complete, absolute ignorance that is exercise bid the news media over this issue is confound i confounding. you waterboarded people, three people -- >> ever, only three people ever. >> and the reason we did that over a decade ago was to make

them believe -- >> ksm was one of them. >> ksm was one of them. spilled his guts, told us everything and if anybody thinks he's brain damaged, just go talk to ksm for a while. he's -- he's as sharp as ever -- >> so you can see -- >> butt he let me say again. i had a cia guy dell me this years ago. the entire purpose of the program was to put doubt in people's mind so they didn't know what was coming next, to throw them off their balance. said it was all a scam, a great elaborate scam. obviously because waterboarding is now out on the table, three people were waterboarded between 2002 and 2005 i think. it's never going to be used again. but here's my problem, now they're not even talking about doing what we do to our own guys in training, sleep deprivation, suddenly that's enhanced interrogation techniques. promising somebody a cupcake but

giving them a cupcake while you lick off half the icing off the top. that's now considered torture. >> okay. >> by the new -- >> let's bring in republican congressman -- [ laughter ] >> he served in the air no, sir both iraq and afghanistan. >> it's the stupidest conversation and it continues because it makes people feel morally superior while being completely ignorant of this process 13 years. >> the most effective interrogation -- i experienced this in my training -- the most effective interrogation is when you're scared but the guy comes in and puts his arm and you and goes "i'm sorry you're going through this, it is what it is, let's get through this together. just give me a couple things." that's the most effective way to interrogate but when you have like donald trump saying we're going to do a hell of a lot worse than waterboarding, it's silly and it doesn't do anything for -- >> it's never going to happen. doesn't do anything for our national security and i just got

back from the middle east and everybody is asking about comments like this. they're like "is donald trump going to be president because this is scary and he's going to ban everybody and whatever." so our political conversation has a real imfact our national security. >> you oppose donald trump. is it on the grounds of national security. could you get there if he hadn't made comments about our alliances with nato? >> i remember a month and a half ago thinking, okay, i'd probably be okay with donald trump and then some of the defense-related things and just most recently saying, well, i don't even know if we need nato. i don't know if he confused nato for the united nations. sometimes republicans say we don't need the u.n. even though i think the u.n. is important but to say nato is mind blowing and then to make comments about banning all muslims. look, the best allies in the war on terror need to be moderate muslims because if you have human intelligence you have moderate muslims you recruit into that. >> but is some of this on us? as republican wes haven't

articulated the benefit to america's national. i know you're a fan of what paul ryan is doing, trying to have a message but isn't some of this on us? >> absolutely. look, we have not done a good job of articulating our values. you know, republicans think that a kid born to the toughest part of chicago should have the same opportunity to succeed as a kid born in the richest suburb of washington, d.c. we have to articulate our heart and we don't do that, instead we just talk numbers and what we're against and people have come around to believe that we're not really compassionate. >> jon meachum has a question for the congressman. >> can you give us an assessment of where you feel the fight against isis is at this point? >> well, it's better than it was. look, we're almost two years into it now and isis still exists in a big way. i think obviously we're stepping up with special forces operations, the use of b 52s now, this is all a good thing. my only bigger problem is this has been two years and we have to be an end game in syria, this

is not going to get fixed until we have an end game in syria. >> what should that end game be? >> i think at the end of the day it's going to be the toppling of assad because assad cannot survive and take over syria again. >> who replaces assad? >> i'm gng to be some kind of form of whatever government post assad that's maybe a coalition, but assad can't take control of all of syria again. >> what about a two-state solution? >> it could be a two-state solution. >> let assad for now for purposes of stability keep his part and have somebody else take the part that isis is over. >> the problem is, though, is assad is the trigger for a lot of this. he is the reason people rose up to rebel in the first place. i was in israel in 2011 and i remember looking down and they're like a little bit of disturbance in syria right now, starting to rebel against the dictator. we have to remember that the bloodline of assad's bloodletting goes back to his father and it's really deep.

with his in power but also without him in power the after rad world is willing to come in and do a lot to stabilize that country. >> thank you very much. jon meachum thank you as well. you can see more of the cia director's exclusive director with richard engel tonight on "nbc nightly news." still ahead this morning on "morning joe." >> you can see all the setups, but there's no rvs there, hooked up to them anymore. >> i still have friends that were laid off with me and other companies that i know that are still looking for work that have been unemployed for about six months or more now. so it's pretty brutal. >> you're seeing foreclosures, you're seeing repossessions of homes, you're seeing cars repossessed. it's pretty ugly out there right now. >> from boom to bust how the downturn in the oil markets is turning places that just a year ago had explosive growth into ghost towns. that's ahead in our next hour. stay with us. wnload the new app? we're good.

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up next, donald trump expands his message to take on what he considers to be a rigged delegate system. speaking of which, bernie sanders ran away with the state of wyoming over the weekend by 12 points. the voters there have made a huge impact -- >> mika, the voters have spoken. >> your vote counted. >> count every vote. >> nope. it actually doesn't. >> every vote matters. >> so how did hillary clinton walk away with more delegates? i thought their votes counted.

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transportation can work better. with xerox. good monday morning to you all. it is monday. yes. it's supposed to be spring. >> i'm trying to will it so. >> you look great. >> that's great winter white. >> welcome to "morning joe." on set we have the managing editor of bloomberg politics and hosts of with all due respect, all though they are not very respectful, joe, it airs at 6:00 p.m. on msnbc, mark halperin and john heilemann, also nicolle

wallace. >> in winter white. here is the deal, we can't complain. we had such a great winter. >> i know. but i'm ready for it to -- >> it would be nice. it was snowing in connecticut. >> we had some flurries. that's never ideal. >> a couple interesting things happening as we start the week. first of all, nicolle, i know your parents had to be relieved, as was my brother, the trump campaign in many ways starting to show that discipline that everybody has been suggesting they needed to show. trump not running on 20 shows on sunday, not tweeting up, you know, storms against, you know, megyn kelly or other people, have a campaign manager that takes the slings and arrows on sunday. they're doing it the way you're supposed to at least pretend to do it. >> yeah, and i don't know that i would call it discipline yet, but i think the big question and there was a lot of gate last

tuesday night about whether or not he could make adjustments and he has. so i think there were people that didn't think he was capable of evolving and he has, and i think that this message that he's on now about how he's losing when he wins is the one that he rides into the convention. >> it's a great message. >> he had gone -- >> i'm talking tactically. >> his failures were rooted in the fact that he had gone way off message, that the message had been totally lost, i think et cetera' got himself back on message most importantly. >> whether you agree with it or not and of course his critics will call it whining, but it is just a great message for an insurgent to write, again, all the way into -- >> against a rigged system, which is the animating purpose of this cycle. >> the entire cycle. the system is rigged. even when i win they steal it from us. the idiots running the colorado republican party tweeting out never trump after they award all the delegates to ted cruz without a single voter going to

the polls to vote. i mean, everything seems to be playing into this message, into this hand. >> the nomination is within his grasp. he doesn't entirely control his own destiny, but pretty close, and what he remembers about this message to make it about the voters and not about himself it is a very effective message for right now. >> and it's an effective message that he happens to be doing it at a time where he's just blowing everybody away in polls. you know, colorado can have their party games, you know, without having voters actually go to the polls to vote, but he could say but in new york, you know, real people are going to vote and i'm up by 25 points. in pennsylvania real people are going to vote and i'm blowing them all away. >> we were on the show the other day and i said something about how it's always a mistake if a party goes to war with its own voters, just like if a business goes to war with its own consumers. if trump can make it seem as

though the republican party is at war with its voters he wins. >> something happened over the weekend in golf. >> mika, i'm so impressed that you -- yes. >> it was on the front page of the "wall street journal" and "usa today." >> it's a tradition like no other. >> it is. >> and a melt down like -- >> as "the new york times" found out in like 2002 or 2003. did anybody see this? >> i watched it after -- >> okay. jordan spieth way ahead, the guy led -- >> is it spieth. >> yeah, spieth was ahead last year, all four rounds, he was ahead the whole time here, he goes to the back nine he bowingees ten, he bowingees 11 and then he starts looking like me. he throws -- >> that's not good. >> no that's not good. he throws a couple -- >> did he start cursing and digging holes into the ground with a stick? >> i believe he got a quad drum

bogie. >> a stick? >> the club. >> right as we were making it we were talking about what an extraordinary achievement this was going to be. i went out, you know, to the corner store, got a falafel, they will a lot of those up in new kay then, i come back in the spicy sauce and he's behind. he was like four behind. >> how long do these things go on? >> it takes a long time. >> days. >> you can take a long drive. >> really? and people sit and watch. >> amazing, yeah. >> most incredible part was he almost came back again. >> you had nothing to say about the golden state warriors. >> you go ahead. >> the golden state warriors tied the record for most regular season wins with one game remaining. >> i think we're in the weeds. >> it's a huge story. i think we will get back to politics now. new polls show donald trump -- >> if they were in the eastern time zone they would lead the

show. >> as mike barnicle would say they might as well be playing in beijing. >> new polls show donald trump with a large lead over his opponents in two of the states up next to vote. in new york a fox news poll shows trump leading by 32 points, 54% to john kasich's 22%. ted cruz is at 15%. >> let's stop there. let's go back there a second. >> okay. stay in new york. >> massive lead. nicolle, this is obviously going to grab most of the headlines for the next couple weeks and if you're donald trump and you decide to do a reboot and you decide to bring in paul manafort, you decide to go establishment as much as possible, now is a pretty great time to do t isn't it, because you can do it and then tell all your critics, look, look what i've done, i've rebooted and i just won by 30 seconds in the second most important state in america. >> that matters for the first time in a really long time. i think he is in a very strong position and i go back to this notion that the climate that both parties are running in is

against a rigged economy, against a rigged political establishment and i think cruz loses by winning because i think that feels rigged. if it feels against the democratic process. and so i know they're doing incredible things in these state conventions, i know that's where the game was moved, but i don't think that that is an advantage on the larger field that this race is being played on. >> when there's a head line, mark, that cruz has managed to go in and steal delegates in south carolina from donald trump and of course the press jumps up and down and says look how stupid trump's operation -- no. i don't know about their operation but i do know this, people remember that donald trump beat the hell out of everybody in south carolina, among the voters, the voters came out and voted for donald trump and when they're reading stories weeks later saying, oh, trump is such a fool, all he knew how to do was get the voters to vote for him but he's

such a moron that the party insiders are turning against him. i'm sure a lot of people on twitter delight in that. i can just tell you it makes cruz look bad, it makes the party look bad, it makes the system look rigged and as we've been saying since the first day he came down the escalator, this type of coverage only makes donald trump stronger. >> it does, but it may keep him from being the nominee. this is exactly analogous to 2000. we learned about how florida votes and how the country votes in 2000 and how much error there is and in a close election those things matter. in this which is shaping up to be a close battle these are the rules and the republican party it's not a government election, it's a private party and i agree with you that a lot of voters will be exercised and already are by what's happening to donald trump but these are the rules and the cruz people are playing by the rules. >> i note alley understand the rules and i'm the one who said

if he gets 1,236 they can send him home, those are the rules, i'm just talking the pr of it, it just looks bad. it looks bad for the party. most importantly it feeds into his narrative. >> his brand. and florida -- the lesson in florida i worked on that campaign, i worked on those recounts and the principle legal and otherwise is that if you are ahead in the first count it's very hard to lose. donald trump will go into the convention ahead with the most delegates most likely. >> i'm talking about the mechanics. >> i'm talking about the pr because i don't think there has been much mechanical about donald trump's rise. i watched a one hour special on another network last night where he was really the first person to speak to these mass layoffs, to make trade about human beings. if he stays on his message which on the economy is about trade, it's about things that no other republicans are talking about, and if he gets to the convention talking about winning in the vote and talks about -- and rails against a rigged system, i

don't know how he loses. i don't know how the party recovers from being perceived as taking it. >> especially, mika, when you look at the numbers coming in from these big states. >> look at pennsylvania, trump has a 26 point advantage ahead of kasich, 48% to 22%, cruz is in a close third at 20%. >> so there you have jon heilemann also in pennsylvania which at least in the last poll we saw a week or so ago much closer after donald trump had his horrific two-week run. looks like the bleeding stops and things have turned back around. notice ted cruz the only guy who can beat donald trump is in third place in all of these polls, third place behind john kasich, the man he said should drop out of the race. >> yeah, i mean, i think these views are, in fact, compatible. the question is if trump -- trump has to perform exceptionally well between now and the end of the primaries in order to get to 1,237. the argument against a rigged system makes him powerful between now and the end of june. >> right. >> and it gives him the best argument to try to get to 1,237

or 1,238. i think i'm with you, if he gets to the end of june and he is not at 1,237 you head to a convention as mark is talking about, then the question is i think the party doesn't care whether it looks good or doesn't look good. if the party wants to try to keep him from being the nominee he can make all the arguments in the world about how he has the most votes the argument in response will be you are still a historically weak front runner you didn't get to the majority and we have these rules in place in which we have a contested convention, multiple ballots, et cetera, et cetera. that may be suicidal for the party but the people against trump think it's suicidal for trump to be the nominee. >> again just so we're clear here, the argument i think and nicolle you're making the same argument i think i'm making that to get to 1,237 the best way you do that is you talk about how rigged the system is. even if you think you're going to get over 1,237 you keep blasting the system as being rigged and keep pounding away and then you get there and if he comes up 100 short it's going to

be hard for the party to not give it to him. if he comes up 200, 300 short, that's a different thing, but also if you have ted cruz finishing in third place in a lot of these northeast primaries, it makes it harder for ted cruz to say in his shakespearian rhetoric -- >> me, me, me, me, me, me. >> that's pretty good. >> i'm the only one that can beat donald trump. >> that's what he does before he speaks to get ready. >> is that what he does? >> absolutely. it's complete disconnect from the person ted cruz which is always very disturbing. all right. let's move to the democratic side. the new fox news polls -- what? i'm just speaking the truth. >> we do have a disturbance in the force here between ted cruz and -- >> maek? >> no, there's nothing. it's not between me and him, it's between him and like everybody. you all think t every single one of you and whenever he speaks

you all go like this. >> she says it. she said she said it. >> and you cringe and you do the freeze face. what is that called, the standing or resting -- i don't know, but it's like whenever he speaks. it's true. do you know the face i'm talking about? >> there's a kind of smile, right? >> let's go to democrats. >> fantastic. let's look at new york, it has hillary clinton up 16 points, 53% to bernie sanders' 37%. that's going to be, what, a clean sweep for her? >> well, we don't know. >> clinton has a double digit lead in pennsylvania in the fox news poll 49 to sanders' 38. >> let's talk about these two polls. surprised by the margin? >> i think he needs to go to rome, i think that's the way to close the gap. a two day trip to rome. >> i think most of us -- >> that is pretty incredible. >> one poll i think the race is a little bit closer than that, but it is her home state, it is a diverse state and, you know,

he basically last week did not take full advantage of winning wisconsin. >> okay. >> he got in a bunch of fights. >> do you agree with mark halperin that for bernie sanders to do better he needs to go to rome, new york, they've got a big military facility up there. >> he's been invited, right? >> rome, new york. >> i find the entire thing totally baffling. if the pope were there and the pope were going to meet with bernie sanders. >> in rome, new york. >> in rome, new york, or vatican city, italy, i would totally understand it. in this context with a must win new york primary to leave the country to go anywhere other than to meet the pope himself makes no sense to me at all and leaves him open to i keep thinking the day is going to come next tuesday bernie sanders is going to close this gap, every place he goes and campaigns he closes the gap or overtakes hillary clinton, he's spending a lot of time in this state, he's going to close that gap. you go away for two days and take away your biggest advantage which is sanders being on the ground, you fall three points

short in new york are you going to look up and say that was a good move to go to italy? >> i think he needs to do a teleconference from rome, new york. >> bernie sanders' winning streak continued over the weekend with a victory in the wyoming caucuses on saturday. sanders beat hillary clinton by 12 points, 56 to 44, notching his eighth win in the last nine nominating contests. >> okay. what do we do here? >> it sounds like he's winning. >> he has won eight out of nine. >> but he's losing. >> he wins by 12 points. i would not do well as a democratic politician. he wins by 12 points, he may not even pick up a single delegate. it's 7 to 6 now with the remaining delegate to be decided later. i'm sorry, that's a crushing victor victory. >> listen, i think with the super delegates that they have i think she only has to win 30% of the vote in the remaining contest. talk about voters feeling like a system might be rigged.

>> why are you even voting in wyoming? >> if you're driving in the car right now we've been talking about rigged systems, we're putting up a graphic. bernie sanders wins 56 to 44% in wyoming, the delegates rewarded, hillary clinton 11, bernie sanders 7. why does the democratic party even have voting booths? >> why? >> this system is so rigged. >> they fall into line better than our voters do, but i can see some of the same emotions boiling over at their convention. >> but we always talk about voter turnout and how important it is to do your duty as a citizen. there's absolutely no reason any of those people voted in any of those states, right? >> what's the justification for that. >> please someone tell me. >> these are the rules. >> that's not a good answer. tell me why those people needed to go vote if their votes don't matter. >> it's not rigged. >> do their votes matter, mark halperin? >> yeah, they do. >> do they count in some way.

>> where you turn out. >> how? only in some parts of the country it matters. >> i don't think it's a good system but -- >> he won by 12 percentage points and lost in the delegate count. >> do you think that the democrats and republicans change their delegate allotment processes after this cycle? >> only if the winner of the white house decides he or she wants to change it which is unlikely. these are the rules -- >> i don't really -- >> it's not like the cruz people or clinton people have gone in and fix it had or rigged it. >> true. that's fair. >> let's talk about the democrats for now. here is a party that ends is their activists out and have people chattering on tv and chattering on talk radio about voter disenfranchisement if you make somebody show a picture of themselves this same party tells voters go straight to hell when they select somebody by 12 percentage points

and end up letting the other candidate who lost by 12 percentage points win the most delegates. that by definition is voter disenfranchisement so it is a rigged system on the democratic side, even worse than the republican side and i don't know why democratic voters put up with it. >> still ahead on "morning joe," can ted cruz or john kasich make a dent in donald trump's lead in new york and pennsylvania? and later, beyond going door to door how a practice known as deep canvassing can revolutionize the way campaigns work to change voters' minds. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. when pain tries to stop you, there's motrin. motrin works fast to stop pain where it starts. make it happen with motrin liquid gels. ♪ ♪

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uh, no thanks. i have x1 from xfinity so... don't fall for directv. xfinity lets you download your shows from anywhere. i used to like that song. if we go into a contested convention we're going to have a ton of delegates, donald is

going to have a ton of delegates and it's going to be a battle in cleveland to see who can eastern the majority of the delegates that were elected by the people. let me tell you in that scenario i think we will go in with an overwhelming advantage, i believe the first ballot will be the highest vote total donald trump receives and on a subsequent ballot we're going to win the nomination and earn a majority. >> it's 26 past the hour. >> what a happy time. >> it is. >> is this a happy time? everybody, this is the happiest show on the television, everybody. >> so many smiles. >> one great big family on camera and off camera. >> it's kind of like reporter room. >> i think you owe luna an apolo apology. does alex not set you up for failure every morning? >> she goes -- >> all right. with us now we have nbc news

correspondent hallie jackson toss covering the kruds campaign and she is a little nervous that she's here. >> i like t i was stressed about your running, other than that i'm good. >> my ticker. look at me, i'm old. you don't want me running down the halls. >> it's good exercise. >> hi. >> hi. >> what about if we got the skates. >> roller skates. >> or a segue. >> donald trump's new right-hand man raised questions over the weekend about the tactics that the cruz campaign is using to secure delegates. what are you hearing? >> yes. >> can you say it in shakespearian, please. >> i don't know if i can say it in shakespearian, let's have paul manafort say it. he talked to chuck yesterday on "meet the press." he was pretty strong about it. we will talk about it on the other side. >> what is fair game to win a delegate? is threatening a fair game? >> it's not my style, it's not donald trump's style, but it is ted cruz's style and that's going to wear thin have i fast.

>> you think he's threatening delegates? >> you go to these county conventions and you see the gestapo tactics. >> that's a strong word. >> we will be filing several protests because the reality is they are not playing by the rules. >> guest an poe tactics. >> the trump campaign is issuing falsehoods to distract from their failure that they have the entire the cruz campaign touting its superior organization saying they're working within the process and rules that have been established. donald trump amping up these complaints that the system is stacked against him. the cruz campaign's response is if you don't like the system this is what an aid said to me then you shouldn't be in the system. another adviser said to me this morning that the whole point is that the system was created by these republicans who are coming to the convention in cleveland and by insulting the system you're insulting these grass

roots volunteers who pour their heart and soul into the party and working for the party. the problem is for the cruz campaign that is a message they have to get out but they're stuck explaining the rules instead of -- >> a couple things playing off on this. first of all, again, proving that the trump campaign is maturing, finally, you actually have somebody going on the sunday shows saying the outrageous things instead of the candidate himself talking about gestapo like tactics. but how fascinating do we actually have somebody else there. first of all. secondly, let's touch on what we said off air, the cruz campaign, despite the shakespearian delivery and everything, they are the pros of this entire campaign they are the pros. they are the people that don't take it personally, they are the people you can attack on one day and the next day, yeah, what do you need. >> very organized. >> the most organized. i again, i don't -- i don't even know any of the people that run

that campaign but without a doubt from a distance there's not a close second as far as a great run campaign. >> you can't win either party nomination without a great inside game and outside game. trump has had the best outside game any of us have ever seen, by hiring paul manafort they're beefing up their inside game. >> that's what i'm saying inside game. >> the cruz campaign has run a decent outside game, their candidate is a decent communicator in some ways but their inside game has been underrated, calendar planning, scheduling, very strong. >> i would have never guessed in a million years that this guy whose public image is not likeable and he said as much himself would win as many states as he has won. >> again, what's interesting is i actually think their outside game has been quite weak in a lot of ways and cruz has done -- as a nothing -- very little that's been memorable in terms of public communication. >> right. >> it would be hard at this

point even no you this deep into the primary to make a case that you understand what his message is in contrast to trump, which is crystal clear, everyone in the world can tell you what donald trump is running on in terms of issues, themes, slogans. cruz apart from being very conservative it's not like there has been a resonant theme or argument that he has made but the inside game has been really, really powerful. in terms of real genuine invasions, the way in which they put together an array of super pacs and got those super pacs to coordinate together. they're playing the old game well and in terms of adapting to the new age of how politics now works in terms of inside game they're doing that really well, too, they've been innovators in a lot of ways. >> trump has played the outside game like nobody ever has before but this inside game by the cruz people really impressive. >> a new analysis finds trump isn't just fueled by a surge of working class voters without

degrees, the share of trump supporters who make more than $100,000 per year is almost exactly the same as the share of trump supporters who make less than 50. as for education, trump about 74% of trump supporters do not have college degrees but according to data about 71% of all americans don't have college degrees. the data also finds trump does best among very wealthy voters without college degrees such as small business owners. >> and really to be fair about it, mika, though i have a college degree most of the time you can't tell. >> right. well, that's true. but because you went to the university of alabama all you need to do is count -- >> to number one every year. that's my joke. i say it and people laugh. >> an interesting story that could have big implications for political campaigns. in 2012 president obama's reelection team was laser focused on the political power of door to door canvassing.

>> but it's not just about reminding folks where to vote or caucus, "the new york times" magazine wrote about a potentially ground breaking study who found how face-to-face conversations even brief ones can actually change voters minds on hot button issues and that opens up a brave new world for candidates and causes. joining us from los angeles is the man whose organization is pro filed in that article the director of the l.a. based leadership lab and a pioneer in political canvassing, dave fleischer also with us, assistant professor of political economy at stanford's school of business david brock man who shows voters issues can shift when their own personal experiences are brought into play. >> do you know we will start with dave or david?

>> let's go with dave. >> dave, could it be that we're more disconnected than ever before from our neighborhoods and communities that face-to-face interaction will have more of an impact than it may have had ten years ago? >> you're absolutely right. face to face interaction is extraordinarily powerful, especially when it's a two-way conversation because most political communications that campaigns indulge in are one-way communications, telling voters what to think, but voters are a lot more persuaded and likely to change their mind and become less prejudice when we have two-way conversations. >> you know, it's interesting when you look at bernie sanders and what draws people to him it's issues and people are brought in by, you know, the conversation about what's happening in this country. >> they are, but ted cruz, though, again, going -- >> the inside game. >> going back to ted cruz and the inside game, we learned very early in iowa that he was doing

a lot of things, door knocking, actually doing profiling of people that they were going to see at the door. >> micro, microtargeting. i mean, they knew these people's issues and what mattered to them and what they had to say. that's what you're seeing about the delegate strategy and delegate game. my question to you, david or dave, how do campaigns implement your research? how do they move forward taking your research? what's the plan and smartest strategy if you are a political candidate going ahead and use your data? >> well, one important implication from what we've learned is that there is a much broader swath of voters who are truly undecided and persuadable. so the prescribing row targeting you were just referring to can easily lead us to make a mistake and spend almost all of our time just talking to people who agree with us. the truth is a much larger number of people would be willing to agree with us if we just take the time to talk with them. >> i think what i would highlight is a variety of political tactics, television

ads, mass mailers, they might have some effects, but what research tends to find is that those effects evaporate pretty quickly. what's unique here not just that so many voters minds were changing in response to a door to door canvassing program that dave and his volunteers were helping run but that shift has lasted. if a campaign wants to do work as the bernie sanders campaign has been doing many months before an election to build up lasting support do you mean tifl in the months before an election, that's really what this research suggests door to door canvassing has a unique potential to do. >> jon heilemann. >> explain the evolution of this thinking. you started to do this research a while back. what was the genesis that led you to doing this work? >> it came out of the loss on a statewide vote in california on same-sex marriage called prop 8 back in 2008 because public polling at the time showed, in fact, that lgbt community, the

pro gay marriage side would win it handily and, in fact, marriages were occurring, gay and lesbian couples were getting married. then election day came and we lost and people were outraged and shocked and out of that the idea that we had at the los angeles lgbt center was let's go talk to the people who voted against us and ask them why they did that because obviously we just aren't understanding what is worrying them when it comes to gay people. >> so if you have an issue that can be as divisive as this issue that deals with people's -- some deeply held beliefs knocking on doors and engaging personally you think that can have an impact in moving those votes? >> well, that's what the data shows is that when we take the time to have those conversations, one in ten voters are changing their mind and changing their mind in a way

that lasts. >> one of the things that really surprised me as a social scientist about some of the data that we're seeing from our independent evaluation of their work is to speak to the point about targeting, with he actually tend to fwiend democrats and republicans, liberals and conservatives, men and women, voters of all kinds are persuaded by these kinds of conversations. it seems like there might be something about a certainly interaction and the way in which you can build a rapport and get people to be comfortable with the person they're talking to, realize they might see both sides of the issue, that allow campaigns to persuade a broader swath of the electorate than they might think traditionally is possible. >> thank you guys so much. you know, it's interesting because we obviously know candidates knock on the door, maybe you can move from one person in a primary to another, but to move on big issues like that that is a fairly ground breaking study. >> hallie, we will be seeing you a lot this week. >> i know, eight days. >> how exciting. >> it's going to be crazy.

>> i know. >> still ahead, the oil market is beginning to show signs of life again, but the severe downturn continues to make life tough for small towns. that was just a year ago full of life thanks to the oil booms. we will drill into that next. (vo) on the trane test range, you learn what makes our heating and cooling systems so reliable. if there's a breaking point, we'll find it. it's hard to stop a trane. really hard. and i'm still struggling with my diabetes.

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because they're big to you. and that is why you invest. the best returns aren't just measured in dollars. td ameritrade®. one year ago we took a look at all the energy that's being tapped into run america and domestic oil was starting to play a big part of the equation, but back then oil prices were falling, down to about $50 a barrel, analysts predicted it would come back as the oil market tends to do but so far it hasn't regrounded to where it was and that means some tough sometimes for the towns built to pump that oil. we went back to the heart of america's energy revolution the

eagle ford shale where one boom down is beginning to look like a ghost town. >> the population sign a says 5,600. there were days where police believe it had swollen to four times that. >> a lot of traffic, a lot of people. >> traffic. traffic. >> couldn't find a parking space at walmart. >> it was horrible. >> there were literally towns that couldn't support the electricity, the sewer, the water demands. >> it doesn't feel like home because of all the outsiders and people. >> now texas roads that were choked with trucks and man camps as they're known that were full of life are instead quiet because as the price of oil has plummeted so from the fortunes of this small town. >> it was dark, but yet it was bright because there were flares everywhere. now when i drive around it's very, very bleak. >> the rig count is at 489. that's three or four rigs off the all time low in the united states. that's from a peek of 2,100 plus

rigs in early 2014. >> a year ago corizzo springs was attracting new hotels, a year ago the red dog ice house was full of out of town workers spending their money on dinner and drinks, a year ago man camps were full and everywhere. now some are abandoned, others have just 20 to 30 residents with capacity for more than 400. in the years after the recession the incredible growth attracted workers from across the country and sent unemployment to under 3%. but it's beginning to rise again. >> the ripple effect of that is huge. restaurants, movie theaters, you name it. >> the oil industry has been shaken up all over the state, an estimated 50,000 jobs lost in houston last year alone. >> it's a blood bath out there. i mean, it actually has affected hundreds of thousands of people's lives. >> you see yards that are stacked with equipment because it's not being used and other

yards that are completely empty because they have already gone under. >> a career ago the mayor had big plans for his little town. >> hopefully god willing we have some shopping centers, you know, that's a big goal of mine and we would have found a way to make it all work. >> now he's out of office and he can only watch as growth in his hometown slows to a call. >> with these big layoffs we have less jobs of course and less people with money in their pockets, every job you can think of it's affected it left to right, top to bottom. >> ruth grew up here, too, she followed her dreams to the sheriff's department. >> it's what i love to do, i've always loved it since i was a little girl. i always wanted to do it and i think it's a calling. you've got to have a calling for it. >> but in the years since the shale boom she has seen her town transformed, explosive growth suddenly gone. >> the hotels are empty, the man camps are empty, rv parks

completely empty. >> when boom turns to bust it can all be packed up and taken away as quickly as it appeared. the chandelier at the red dog ice house hangs from a ceiling that can be taken down when it's time to go. >> we still have hopes that the oil boom will come back. >> i know it will come back, just a lot of politics. >> i hope so we all need it and need that money coming in. >> let's bring in michelle caruso-cabrera. michelle, where are owl markets right now? >> right now we're waiting to see whether oil produced in the united states can cross back above 40 bucks a barrel. we touched there last week, but it didn't close there. that would be a dramatic improvement compared to what we have seen as you highlighted in the story when you look at the two-year chart of oil it looks like it's straight down, when you bring up the three month chart, however, you can see that it's actually started to rise. these numbers really matter here for the united states for the following reason, all over the world it costs different amounts of money to take oil out of the

ground. the reason there has been so much oil produced in the united states is because there's this new technology, horizontal drilling and fracking which means that oil that we couldn't get before in the united states now we can get. that's tremendous but guess what it's expensive, it costs between $40 and $60 per barrel to get it out of the ground. saudi arabia where the joke is you can literally stick a straw in the ground and suck it up it costs 5 pucks a barrel for them to extract. they can live with lower oil prices for much longer and they're also not economically driven. we have investors in these wells and when the wells aren't profitable they stop investing, saudi arabia everything is politically driven so they don't have to curtail investments depending on what we want to do. >> michelle caruso-cabrera, thank you very much. up next, tip o'neal once famously said that all politics are local. up next we will explain why all politics is also global. stay with us.

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you might be thinking to yourself how can we possibly persuade world leaders to sustain a focus on global issues. indeed the powerful american politician tip o'neal once said all politics is local. that's what always got politicians elected. to speak, gain and hold on to power through the pursuit of local or very best national

interests. >> what was the ceo of global citizen hugh evans delivering a ted talk earlier in year about the intersection between political leadership and the major issues facing our world. his ted talk is available online starting -- >> it's launching right now. five minutes from now. >> four minutes from now. that's really like in the moment. we are in the moment with you. how are you? >> tell us the message. what's the bottom line of your ted talk? >> the bottom line, joe, is that, you know, i'm convinced that if we had more global citizens active in our world then every single one of the major challenges we face from conflict, climate change, disease, these challenges they become voluntarily ofable and the reason is because they are ultimately global challenges and ultimately can only be solved by global citizens demanding global solutions from their leadership. >> are you surprised by how well global citizen has taken off? >> we are so excited. last year more than 100,000 new citizens signed up each and

every week of the year. we've grown to have 7.5 members around the world taking action day and in day out. this is a big year for us as well. >> if people want to get involved what do they do? >> the best way to get involved is to go to globalcitizen.org and take action. each of your actions earning you points and you can use those points to redeem rewards at global festival in september but also concerts all around the world. >> how are you looking at handling, discussing with or discussing about the candidates in the presidential election? >> obviously global citizen as a nonprofit is bipartisan but we las want to ensure that candidates take a progressive role when it comes to looking at the future of our world. if you consider issues like gender equality, we want to ensure people are treated with dignity, respect and equal opportunity, the issue of girls education which is something we care passionately about. >> poverty. >> yeah, poverty ee leave yags, exactly. these are things that are squarely in our wheelhouse. while we won't be endorsing any

specific candidate we will be ensuring that the policies that will alleviate poverty and will actually ensure people can be lifted out of extreme poverty over the coming years are supported. >> jon heilemann. >> almost all the issues that you talked about that are big huge global issues are receiving it seems to me almost no discussion whatsoever on the campaign trail in this campaign, not talking about global poverty, climate change largely. what can your group do to try to influence in a nonpartisan or bipartisan way to influence the actual discussion that's taking place among our potential leaders of this country? >> last week you might have seen the leak of the panama papers, you're seeing an intersection between tax avoidance and global poverty, the reason people continue to be perpetuated in poverty is many people are engaged in rent seeking so this err actually not paying their dues to the country of origin and we have greater levels of

poverty. there is a strong intersection between the crept issues that are being discussed on the political trail and the issue of extreme poverty but you have to come at it through things like trying to combat corruption or tax avoidance in the case of panama papers. >> go ahead. >> go ahead. >> what's your one goal for 2016, your big goal, the big idea for this year? >> the big goal for this year is that we want to build an unstoppable movement of global citizens who have enough political salience that when a major political issue comes before congress or parliament in britain or parliament in the united states there is a political constituency of global citizens who say i'm going to act on that and a i'm going to ensure that my candidate that i vote for behaves in a way that ultimately -- >> and you're moving into india now. >> we are. we have a big year ahead of us. >> hugh evans come back at any time. anything we can do at "morning joe" to help you let us know. >> thank you mika, thank you joe. >> it's like up in one minute. >> ted talk.

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hi, children. time to talk about what we learned today. mika. >> i learned that the big story this morning has to do with men in green jackets who hit balls into holes. i still don't get it but you guys seem to enjoy it. >> this is the happiest place on earth on and off camera. >> jon heilemann. >> the system is rigged according to you two. >> that's the message of the day. >> the system is rigged. >> we went so fast we have extra time. the system is rigged >> on the count of three can everybody say the system is rigged. one, two, three. >> the system is rigged. >> america. >> now pass the kcupcakes.

>> steve kornacki picks up our coverage after a break -- right now, actually. have a great day, everybody. >> can you turn this, please. he's right there. keep turning it. right there. yeah. we're going to him now. okay? and good morning. i'm steve kornacki. topping our agenda this hour, donald trump goes 0 for colorado. >> we've got a corrupt system. it's not right. we're supposed to be a democracy. >> the republican front runner once again finding himself out organized and out hustled by ted cruz and this time tsz cost trump all 34 from the state of colorado. we're going to have all the latest on the stop trump