>> carol, molly, great friday. we'll be back monday with more "mtp daily." if it's sunday on "meet the pres press". "with all due respect" starts right now. i'm john. >> this is a no spin zone. >> no, no, no. good afternoon, tgi, not quite tax day yet. we're here at the driver's village in cicero, new york. just outside syracuse, where we interviewed ted cruz. we're going to show you that conversation a little later in the program. but first, bernie sanders hail mary. just days before the empire state primary, next tuesday, sanders took a red eye flight after he debated hillary clinton, and i went to rome, italy. where he delivered a 15 minute speech on a, quote, moral

economy, to something called the pontiffcal economy in vatican city. playing off the trip, sanders also annotated a speech by pope francis, and he had that published on the "washington post" website today. after making the over 4,000 mile one way trek, sanders is going to leave vatican city tomorrow, without at this point, any expectation he will meet directly with the pope. john, you and i have both been confused since the trip got announced about why it made sense to leave new york and go to rome with the primary approaching. now the trip is in the can, was it worth it? >> i'll court the abuse of all the bernie bots and everybody who lots bernie sanders, having viewed the activities and seen the coverage, it still doesn't make sense he went to rome. he got some decent play. he was able to go to a different place and make the argument to world leaders rather than making the same argument here on the

stump here. given where he stands right now in the new york race, it would have been better for him to find a place rome, new york, rather than italy. >> this has campaign has done great at big rallies. they just haven't done well, i thought they had a secret reason. >> the pope was going to show up. >> i think what they said was true. bernie sanders wanted to go. he thought it was an honor to be included. he justified being away for 40 hours. hillary clinton goes to california for 40 hours to fund raise. >> she is is ahead by 200 delegates, and ahead in the state. >> he could have done something to doe fine something in the debate. lackluster. instead, he left, got coverage. but man, it makes no more sense than it did before. i predicted it would be canceled. it might as well have been. >> i want to clarify this point. why do we not criticize hillary clinton for going to california for a fund-raiser with george clooney. i don't think there is anything

wrong with bernie sanders going to rome. i don't think there is anything wrong with her going to a fundraising. what is the political consequence. in her case, she can afford to leave a state ahead by double digits and she is ahead. he is the one that has to score delegates. >> if he doesn't win, he loses. >> correct. he has to catch up. this is not a place he can afford, one of the richest delegate states in the whole contest to lose and lose potentially badly. >> the guy has incredible stamina, but i can't imagine he'll come back as fresh as a daisy. >> the fact that his family, all of them went with him, it was a meaningful thing for him. >> it what a roman holiday. easily the most caustic, contentious and personally bernie sanders and hillary clinton both left the brooklyn navy yard debate, bruised but

unbloodied, the crowd was more loudly pro sanders than pro clinton, the vermont failed to capitalize on the answers. take a look and see for yourself. >> secretary clinton, the question was about the transcripts of the speeches to goldman sachs. >> i've said, look, there are certain -- there are certain expectations when you run for president. this is a new one. and i've said, if everybody agrees to do it, because there are speeches for money on the other side, i know that. >> do you regret your advocacy for the crime bill? >> well, look, i supported the crime bill. my his has apologized. he was the run who actually signed it. senator sanders -- >> what about you, senator? >> i'm sorry for the consequences that were unintended and that have had a very unfortunate impact on people's lives. >> are you prepared to lift the cap on taxable income which currently stands at $118,500,

yes or no? would you lift the cap? >> i have said repeatedly, wolf, i am going to make the wealthy pay into social security extend the social security trust fund. that is one way. if that is the way that we pursue, i will follow that. >> interesting comment, but you didn't answer the question. >> i did, that's the way -- >> no you didn't. >> yes, i did. >> can i -- may i please. >> don't put words into my mouth and say something that's not accurate. >> senator -- >> all right. >> so mark, my question for you, either in the -- so my question for you, either in the democratic race, or did the debate change anything? if so, what? >> it eliminated bernie sanders' last chance by failing to change the contours in his last chance. two, it gave i think the clinton people confidence that he has no tricks up his sleeve.

if he had any tricks up his sleeve, would he have done it. three, it gave republicans a lot of confidence that hillary clinton, as strong as she is as a debater in some ways, gave evasive answers. he had a failure, the moments we showed, a skilled debater donald trump and ted cruz is skilled in some ways, they'll take advantage of that. >> given the level of ranker on stage, hillary clinton will not i think agree to another debate. there has been discussion. after last night, i don't think anybody certainly on the clinton side will want to see it happen again. the second thing i think is that it is clear. an open debate how easy it will be to knit the party back together. last night made harder. not impossible, but harder. bernie sanders, though he was not great last night, the things that he is doing, the things that he is saying are taking a

toll on her. she is 66%. three in one democrats saying they dislike her. she had 85, 90% approval rating. that's a problem for her. she has to have enthusiasm. >> if those numbers stand, they have problems with her trustworthiness, she has a moment like that in a general election, the republican steps in and gives a zinger, recreate ace moment, it could be a big thing in the election. >> agreed. here is another example of bernie sanders pulling his punches. two new tv ads coming days. one for new york, focuses on wall street contributions and paid speeches to politicians. another is running in california, and it touts sanders' ability to raise money not from fat cat. neither spot mentions anyone by name. both are pretty clearly aimed, though, at hillary clinton. so john, the sanders campaign

finally puts on, some are describing as tough, but why he is holding back? if he is going negative, why not go negative and name her? >> an actual answer, the candidate is insisting on drawing this line. people around him would happily like to attack hillary clinton by name. he has drawn a line personally and said it's fine to characterize, but i'm not going to name her in the ads. i think its he's distinction without a difference. i think it is a ridiculous that gains him nothing. but that is what the candidate has told his people. this is a line he wants to stick to for whatever reason. >> throughout his career, they should say to him, if that's the way you want it, we should donate the money to charity. they're giving it to television stations to no effect. >> we should go back to doing issues, name her or do whatever. >> simon and garfunkel ad. >> if you're going to do a

negative ad saying hillary clinton but not saying her name, you might as well say her name. you're not getting any points for virtue by going down this path. we know candidates that get this. they get a fix, and why it's meaningful, and they will not budge. you know sanders is stubborn. >> bernie sanders will probably not be the nominee. he might be, but he probably won't be. he has been a great candidate. building crowds, inspiring people. his ability to oversee an ad campaign, with his exception of the positive ads, his ability to debate, you can't beat a clinton as an under dog pulling your punches. >> to be clear, the kre creative is good, they're not going as far as they could go for maximum effect. all right, we have a quick correction. on the show yesterday, we were talking about controversy surrounding bernie sanders' surrogates. i said susan surandan would vote

for donald trump. that wasn't correct. he would usher in a revolution. she likes the idea of a revolution. she would never vote for trump. that's on me. coming up, our interview with ted cruz, but first, donald trump, like you've never read him before. demuir, epithet free and without an exclamation point in sight, after this.

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have we gotten to the point where politicians rigged process with more passion than they ever have defended america's borders. the republican's party national committee, released a memo owe early this morning delegate processes and the chairman, reince priebus offered this. >> every 60,000 people a month ago in colorado voted at their precinct level, county level, congressional district level. all the while, by the way, willie, all the candidates competed with surrogates in the system. without complaining by the way. the whole way through for a month. so i think it's a little too late to complain after the fact that a particular state's process isn't something you

like. >> so we know why donald trump is driving this line of rhetoric about the system being unfair. what is reince priebus and the rnc, what do they get out of having this fight with donald trump? >> well, in the end, if reince priebus ends up having to take over the convention, and it row dueses a nominee who is not donald trump or a nominee without a majority or without a plurality, the integrity will be the crucial to the long-term task ahead for the republican ahead, as the democrats will have to do in a din way. he is laying down a predicate by attacking the system. he is now defending the system. >> that's part of it. i think reince priebus want to stay running the rnc. they want to throw history out. it is a matter of practice, not law or policy, that the rnc basically and the dnc hand over the rooens to the nominee. four years ago, mitt romney was taking over the rnc at this

point. priebus wants to stay. i think they're basically, if trump fires at them, they want to prove they're tough guys and gals, and can fire back and say our system is great. leave it alone. >> look, there is now two factions broadly in the republican party. the trump fans and then there is the never trump coalition, people at various levels. but if you are priebus and what to do, you don't want to be the spokesman for the never trump cause, but you want to convince them that you are as you say a tough guy, you're player. you're significant. and that you're going to defend the system by which they will win if they are going to win. that's the system by which they're going to win. >> the likeliest nominee is basically saying the party whose nominee i want to be has rules that are corrupt. the rnc has to defend their

brand. >> no stranger, the previous runner attacking. we have seen that before. that was the substance on that trump op ed. now we'll talk about the style. the most interesting thing that he wrote was how little it resem belled in style or substance the written form that we're most familiar with when it comes to trump, his patented iconic twitter outbursts. we were treat today a workman like, basically levelheaded, the kind of thing any old presidential candidate would publish under his name. completed with sentences like the following, quote, my campaign will battle for every last delegate, work within the system that exists now while fighting to have it reform in the future. we'll do it the right way. maximum transparency, maximum voter participation. we'll run a campaign based on empowering voters not sidelining

them, end quote. mark, who is this rather conventional pro stylist, and what has he done with the donald? more importantly, what is the meaning of this new polished donald trump? >> as op ed as by candidates go, this was relatively good. >> it was. >> it had some interesting writing in it. i think that this is the influence of the new guard. maybe influence of his family. it is a recognition that he can make powerful arguments with a different for matt on a platform which is quite her husband, like barack obama, has the potential to be the candidate of a lot of big business, some small business. trump wants to reach out and basically argue, style listicly, i can be an adult, serious person, can make an argument that doesn't end with the word sad, exclamation point. >> interesting, the context of

analysis of what's going on in murdock world, like, if you this i about the megyn kelly, you think about the endorsement of the new york post, and then you think the "wall street journal" op e open up and suggestions that something is going on, greater murdock landia and whether they want to make peace with him, because he may be the nominee and they don't want to be at war. >> it might be a short-term thing. i have no insight, but i will say -- >> it is not a coincidence. >> it would not be unusual for them to make the following judgment. trump will probably be the nominee. he could get elected. why not in the short-term do some nice stuff. >> that's the kind of stuff murdock does all the time. he has done it for years and years. coming up, our interview with senator ted cruz. we'll be right back with. so i asked about adding

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fight heartburn fast. with tums chewy delights. the mouthwatering soft chew that goes to work in seconds to conquer heartburn fast. tum tum tum tum. chewy delights. only from tums. today, we followed ted cruz up here in cicero, new york, not far from syracuse, in between campaign stops, he sat down here at driver's village, a giant automotive mall and we talked a little politics, starting with his discussion of his empire state strategy. >> new york is donald's home state. you would expect donald to do well in his home state. the numbers suggest he will. you know, i think if donald does anything other than win it with substantially more than 50%, it

will be perceived as a real loss for him. we're competing here. we're trying to earn delegates. we're getting some support. but you know, our campaign is very much a national campaign. you look at the last three weeks, we've had an amazing three weeks. we won 11 elections in a row in four different states. that momentum is continuing nationwide. >> that's concession basically you don't expect to win the state, you're competing here for delegates. what would be a success for you? >> listen, we welcome every delegate we can earn. i will note, when donald came to the state of texas, we wolluped him in texas. i i am encouraged by the support. the new york sun endorsed our campaign, the strongest constitutionalist in the state, i can defend the bill of rights and also the strongest commander in chief that understands we have to be active by standing by

our friends and allies, the nation of israel and standing up to islamic terrorists. >> finishing with the second most delegates before cleveland. at that point, donald trump and his supporters are going to be disappointed. you will have had the most delegates. what do you -- what would you need for him in that scenario? what would you expect from him to unify the party if you get your way, come in with the second most, lead as the nominee. >> it's unclear what will happen. it is getting more and more likely each passing day that we're headed to a contested convention. if that happens, that means i'll come in with a ton of delegates, donald will come in with a ton. >> but with more. >> we'll see how it place out. we'll see what the voters decide. regardless, what that means is that in claeveland, who has the most delegates that were elected by the people. we'll have the significant

advantage of being able to unite the republican party. that's my focus right now. if we are divided. if we're splintered, that's why i'm so encouraged we're winning election after election, we're seeing the full range of republicans. >> i want to take you to the next step, i understand the scenario, but at that point you would have donald trump would be disappointed, and he sort of sent signals he would say the system was rigged against him and his supporters, the hundreds of thousands, millions of people who either voted him or support him, how do you bring donald trump and his supporters in at that point? >> well, listen, i'm not going to predict how donald would react. the test to winning the nomination is the same it has been since 1860. the only way to win is to earn the delegates elected by the people. whoever the nominee is, that's what they're going to have to do. i will say if it ends up, as i

think probably will happen, a contested convention, we aren't a majority, it will be critically important then to keep the donald trump supporters energized an engaged. it's one of the reasons i'm the last man standing against donald, because if you look at the supporters, the heart of his campaign has been blue collar workers, reagan democrats, the only one who has competed effectively has been me. in some states he has won the blue collar voters, and in other states, i've won. we tend to be first and second, back and forth. the issues that energize, securing the border, keeping the country safe, bringing back jobs. those issues are right at the heart of our campaign. i believe if i earn a majority of the delegates in cleveland, that we are going to be able to continue to energize and unite those trump supporters and get them to come out and vote. >> the short question, short

answer. so you think you can reach his supporters and energize them without necessarily his full support for you in cleveland? >> listen, i certainly hope so. there is no doubt in a contested convention, that's something you naturally worry about, having divisions in the party. we're going to have to work hart at continuing to unite the party. one sign that is encouraging, you look at the 17 republican candidates who started this race, five of them are in -- are supporting my campaign now. we've been endorsed by rick perry, lindsey graham, jeb bush, scott walker, carly fiorina. that is indicative of the republican party uniting, and each of those, you know, was fighting vigorously against me. and yet part of the reason we were able to unite the party is in the course of those battles, you know, our campaign never got personal, never got nasty, never attacked them directly. so policy disagreements, healthy primary, but it makes it easier to unite when you do that.

i hope and believe the same will be true with donald's supporters, if and when we win the nomination. >> we'll be right back with more of our interview with ted cruz right after these words from our sponsors. i asked my dentist if an electric toothbrush was going to clean better than a manual. he said sure...but don't get just any one. get one inspired by dentists, with a round brush head. go pro with oral-b. oral-b's rounded brush head cups your teeth to break up plaque and rotates to sweep it away. and oral-b delivers a clinically proven superior clean versus sonicare diamondclean. my mouth feels super clean! oral-b. know you're getting a superior clean. i'm never going back to a manual brush.

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interview with senator ted cruz at driver's village. in cicero, new york, outside of syracuse. >> it has gotten nasty between you two, and a lot emanating from mr. trump. he calls you lyin' ted. he tweeted a picture of your wife that was clearly meant to insult you. have you talked to him. >> i certainly would have talked

to him. he was gone when i came down. >> is this political theater or on some level, like normal human beings, not running for president, if somebody treated me like that, there is no way we would be allies ever again. i would be offended the rest of my life. can this be fixed? >> from my side, i try not to take it personally. people behave, the frog and scorpion. the frog and and scorpion stings him, he asks why, why did you sting me, now we both shall die. he said because it is my nature. people behave according to their nature. donald lashes out. he attacks when he loses. when we beat him in an election, that's when he gets particularly nasty. ri e i recognize that. we all have natural human emotio emotions. the focus at the end of the day, it is not on donald, it is not

on me. it is solving the problems in this country. my focus is jobs and economic growth. i think that's the focus of people in new york. they want to see high paying jobs back in america. >> but again, just as two guys, right, could you be allies again? would he need to ask your forgiveness? i would not be friends with someone -- >> lying john. >> listen, i do think wives and children or spouses and family should be off-limits. that has no place am politics, and i was grateful that donald said it was a mistake to do that. i hope it's a mistake that doesn't occur again. that would be a good improvement. my focus, this should not be personal. it's not about him. it's not about me. it's about the country. it's about who has real solutions. millions of americans are hurting. wages of stagnated over a decade. so what i'm focused on everyday, how do we bring manufacturing jobs back to new york. how do we see wages rise, how do

we see young people coming out of school with job offers. lifting the burden off of small businesses, passing a simple flat tax. stopping amnesty. those are the solutions we need to the real problems, and it's why we're getting so much support across the country. >> flat taxes, are they done? have you signed them yet? >> i'm sending in an extension, which i confess we do every year. >> your tax plan, is that the centerpiece what you've done but i don't find you talk about it, say you were explaining it to a college junior, freshman, how would you explain it? >> a simple flat tax. first $36,000, you pay nothing. zero. no income tax, no payroll tax. above $36,000, for each additional dollar, everyone pays the same 10%.

a gazilinoare pays the same thing. we abolish the obama care, payroll taxes, most working men and women pay. we abolish the death tax, which is cruel and unfair to farmers and ranchers and small businesses. we we place it with a 16% business flat tax that's fair and uniform, no longer to giant corporations, tons of accountants, paying nothing, while small businesses get hammered. under the simple flat tax, you can see the postcard on the website, ted cruz.org, fill out your taxes on a smartphone, and we abolish the irs. particularly today, today is tax day, we got an extension until monday this year, but people are thinking about the burdens of washington and especially with the obama irs, which has been politicized, corrupt, targeted

citizens based on their first amendment rights. it is time to end the corrupt agency that is the irs, and my simple flat tax will produce 4.9 million new jobs, raise wages for americans across the country. the average family, over ten years, will have additional $7,600 in take-home pay. >> lots of people according to your calculation would pay less. would any individual or business pay more under your plan. >> it's certainly possible. the projections show every single income level sees an increase in after taxing income of at least double digits. 14% is the lowest increase. that's when we were designing it. i worked very closely with with the economic advisor so ronald reagan. it had to help everyone and had to produce growth. the key to every problem we've got, unemployment, deficit,

strengthening and preserving social security and medicare. >> faster growth. >> growth. so this tax plan is designed to turbocharge growth so small businesses take off, and in particular, manufacturing jobs come back to america, back from china, back from mexico. >> you're going to say no is my guess, but how much would the cruz family pay under your plan. >> i have not run those numbers. >> i believe you're country music fan. >> i am but not terribly expert. >> i still like classic rock. >> bruce springsteen fan. >> i enjoy spring stesteen. >> you don't travel around, but you like him. so the other day they announced they weren't going to play in north carolina because of the bathroom law there. so when you hear that an artist doing something like that do you think that's legitimate? do you think it's disrespectful? what do you make you think about

bruce springsteen. >> he has a free speech. he has a right not to travel there. i think a lot of hollywood and entertainment latches on to whatever is politically correct at the given moment. my view on the constitutionalist, and states have rights to pass laws consistent with the values of their citizens, and it may be the citizens in north carolina will make different judgments than new york. >> you don't feel sympathy or you don't feel disgust? when you hear -- not what they have the right to do. >> springsteen, he is entitled to -- >> thumbs up or thumbs down. >> he is entitled to be a liberal and most rock and rollers are liberals. that's their culture. it's the easy thing to be a liberal. everyone in the entertainment field, it's the you don't see them addressing the fact that under the obama economy, income

inequality has grown. you do not often see hollywood addressing the fact that we've ab b -- abandoned israel and hillary clinton doesn't even acknowledge it. >> we're about to make some news. your careful lawyer. you're about to start vetting potential running mates? >> anyone would. we're less than 100 days away. you've got to do it. we're in the process of assessing. i will say it is really a nice situation on the republican side, because there is an abundance of good choices. you start with 17 candidate wos ran. >> you have to vet them. >> i'm right, you're about to start the process. >> we are in the process of examining potential

vice-president den sha vice-preside vice-president nominees. our focus is earning the votes from the people to earn delegates to go to cleveland. >> you have to be ready if you win the nomination, they've got to be vetted by then. >> this is going to go on a fast and accelerated time frame. our thanks to senator ted cruz. that interview is not all we did. after our talk, we got the chance to fuzu with cruz. fooz ball. you can check it out on monday. can't tip you to the results, but you'll want to see it. nitty-gritty politics in new york, couple of folks in the syracuse area, right after this. e*trade is all about seizing opportunity. so i'm going to take this opportunity to go off script. so if i wanna go to jersey and check out shotsy tuccerelli's portfolio, what's it to you? or i'm a scottish mason

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we have pulled up two chairs to talk to two chairs from up state new york. the co-chair of the donald trump leadership team, and i have a terrible time pronouncing it, onandaga, county republican party, tom. the co-chair of hillary clinton's team in syracuse mayor, stephanie meyer. it is so much easier.

>> it is. >> all right, i can't do the county and i can't do your name. donald trump is going to win the state, right? >> he is. >> tell me, we understand donald trump is a new york city phenomenon. >> right. >> what is the donald trump upstate new york phenomenon? >> he was considering running for governor a couple of years back and i was part of a group recruiting that. the mayor can attest to this, upstate has struggled for decades, population loss, high taxes, that's gravitating and giving donald trump a lot of support here in upstate new york. >> talk about hillary clinton, she obviously famously won the senate the first time when she first came around. has there been any kind of significant -- she had to r reintroduce herself? >> no, i don't think so p. she was here two weeks ago, right before the final four, when we made our run, both the men and women's team. had a great day, lots of

positive feedback. people were anxious and hopeful and grateful that she had the opportunity to come back. because we knew her as a senator and she started her listening tour here and that was the exposure that we all started with her. she was a very hands on senator. a workhorse. not a show horse. the people up here had first hand experience with that. >> you two talk amongst yourselves on this topic. we've had years now in both parties trying to revitalize in this part of the state. >> education is. we've gone into global marketplace. we have to not just compete against the north and south, but you have to compete against china and mexico. you have to have innovation, high skilled engineers, people smart and can problem solve. too many politicians have been thinking about doing it, with just quick, one shot answers. just cut taxes or just give a development break. you need to have a more

sustainable approach to economic development. >> i think that's why donald trump is called wildfire. he is a strong leader. he has built a tremendous company. job and taxes are two big issues here in upstate new york, for decades it has been going in the wrong direction. >> do you any republicans that will support hillary clinton. >> i don't. >> do you any democrats withat will support -- >> i don't. republicans are saying they're going to support hillary clinton in november, obviously. >> i think we're going to have a lot of crossover support. you talked to the common person on the street, whether they are a rank and file union person, or somebody who is, you know, a former reagan democratic. they are frustrated with what has gone on. the reason trump is doing so well is for decades, we've been sending the same old people to washington and nothing is getting done. when they see donald trump come to town or they see the organization that he has built, they know that he can get

results. that's what they expect to happen when he goes to washington, d.c. >> i agree with tom. i know, i know lots of people who are supporting donald trump in their primary emotion is frustration. you almost can't talk to them beyond that frustration there. frustrated folks in just leadership across the board. and so when you try to say to them what about the solutions, they don't want to hear that. they want somebody who goes in there and blows it up. >> people are frustrated. that's you're seeing bernie sanders do so well in hillary clinton's adopted home state. >> you guys have easy jobs politically right now. you have the candidates you're representing are the favorites in the state, they're going to probably win the state. in a general election, let's assume they're the nominees. >> it will be fun to watch. >> talk amongst yourselves, because presume, over hillary clinton, not over the other republicans. >> donald trump was born and

raised here in new york. he was born in queens he will do well in new york. he is going to do very well on long island. do well in the suburbs and have a lot of support in upstate new york, because there have been a lot of issues in the last couple of years, there is a lot of reason there is a voter frus tation. he is going to put new york in play in a general election in it is donald versus hillary. >> why he is wrong? >> substance. when you first voting for president of the united states, that's a very personal vote. people are putting livelihoods and children's livelihoods, somebody who is steady, knows substance, works hard, has already talked about policy and implemented those policies. >> well, and donald trump has a successful record of building a company and creating jobs. that's what we need here in up state new york. that's why he'll do well in upstate new york. >> are you both proud that two of the leading presidential candidates are new yorkers? are you both proud of that?

>> i'm proud to be supporting hillary clinton. >> the leading candidates? >> wasn't hillary from arkansas or illinois. >> no state pride in that? >> i have to tell you, seeing the things that donald trump has said, the way he said it, has not made me feel proud at all. >> real quick, yes or no. >> very happy that he is. >> are you proud that hillary clinton and other new yorkers -- >> she is is not really a new yorker. >> say your last name again. >> tom dadye. >> mayor miner, thank you. >> thank you. >> when we come back, the blow by below, what happened in the ring at that brouhaha in brooklyn.

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pujism. that's why candidates sparred at a debate or suffered a beat down, with everyone calling the prize foot the brooklyn brawl. we thought we would send our man, griffin hammond and matt to the fable church street boxes to see the debate through their eyes. >> i think they're evenly matched. >> both of them had punches. who won is a different story. >> bernie kept coming back. he didn't answer the questions. >> bernie took it by a little bit. >> the brooklyn brawl. >> brooklyn brawl. >> it was sort of a brooklyn brawl. >> bear knuck-- bare knuckled b >> it looked like a sparring session. just right there, the person hitting you, you have no other option than to rock back. you saw hillary just sticking him and then he would try to come through, and then she bam,

bam, bam, again. >> when asked, he could not explain how that would be done. >> just don't let her dominate you. don't let her jump all over your words when you're trying to respond. and that's that she is doing. she is just like trying to pound him, pound him, pound him. but then he comes back with a qualified response. >> i am sure a lot of people are very surprised to learn that you supported raising the minimum wage to $15 an hour. >> it's like one big solid right. >> i was watching it and thinking this is just politics, boxing without gloves. throwing punches back and forth. >> secretary clinton was busy giving speeches to goldman sachs for $225,000. >> senator sanders did call me unqualified. >> you're going to hit me and i'm going to hit you back. there was a lot of raised voices. a lot of yelling. >> los angeles, new york, seattle, let's do it. >> that's what it is in boxing. who will dominate the time and get the right hit in before the

round is over. >> they were going low blows a little bit. it wasn't as friendly as in the past. >> this is a phony attack that is designed to raise question when there is no evidence or support. >> some of those jabs that hillary was doing was just little pats, you know. trying to make points, but not really doing any damage. >> maybe the next one they might do a little muhammad ali. thanks to griffin and matt. we'll be right back with some late night comedy styling, after this.

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talked about earlier in the show, op ed, his rivals are taking sometimes a goofer route to get the nomination. both ted cruz and john kasich appeared on late night tv. kasich was on with seth myers, cruz on the tonight show. here are the comedy stylings. >> are you watching the democratic debate? >> nope. i'm watching the princess bride. >> inconceivable. >> i am a blue collar guy. i'm like a person that is frustrated about things in fe. i mean, my father carried mail on his back. his father was a coal miner. >> was he a mailman. >> yeah. because it's illegal if you take somebody else's mail. >> that's a good point. i never asked him if he actually did that. >> that's a problem. that's a felony. all right, both those guys have done late night before. how do you think they're developing? >> well, look, everyone expects for john kasich to be pretty good at this, because he is a

goofy guy. everyone is surprised. we know ted cruz has a sense of humor, and he did pretty well last night. >> they're both not nervous on those shows. >> that's the key. you've got to be game to do it. both of them are pretty game. the cruz thing where fallon played trump was pretty funny. >> it's hard not to be nervous, but they have it down. monday, competition when we show our foosball faceoff. you won't want to miss it. head to bloomberg politics right now, the narsacism, we won't tell anybody how things went, but it was tough. >> spirited. >> it was spirited. >> we came up with a lot of good nicknames for ted cruz. a lot of them rhyme with lyin'.

>> not a lot of banter. focused on the competition. >> watch monday's episode. time to say sayonara. coming up, "hardball" with chris matthews. bernie's roman holiday. let's play "hardball." good evening, i'm chris matthews in washington, just four days of the new york primary, bernie sanders has taken his message overseas to the vatican. speaking today at a conference, hosted by the pontiffcal associates. using familiar themes, he slammed wall street, big bangs and citizens united, but reframed his message to restore the soul of this country. >> but as both p