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this is an msnbc exclusive town hall with governor john kasich from the milleridge inn. here now is chris matthews. >> good evening and welcome to an msnbc exclusive town hall. please welcome tonight for the full hour ohio governor and republican presidential candidate john kasich. [ cheers and applause ] >> thank you. >> thank you, governor. two days ago in new york with the republican women's club, you talked about fear and anger out there and how certain candidates opposing you have been exploiting it for their own fame and to gain attention.

what were you talking about and who were you talking about? >> well, i was talking about trump and cruz primarily. >> you didn't say that then. now you're saying it. >> well, look, here is some of the menu that they've offered. we're going to have surveillance over some neighborhoods. we're going to ban people based on religious tests. we're going to use nuclear weapons in europe. and we're going to get rid of nato. we're going to let russia kind of run europe. i mean -- and here is the problem, chris. this is what bothers me. do we have problems? yeah, of course we do. people worried about their jobs, worried they don't have good wages. they put their money in the bank, they get no interest and what they're really worried about is their kid went to school and is still living with them, can't find a job. >> yeah. >> seriously, can't find a job. [ applause ] and now are those as serious a problem as the depression, as

the second world war, as the attacks on 9/11? i don't think so. they're serious, but you can either get people and drive them into a ditch and feed on their anxiety, gnashing of teeth. you know, this person did this to me. or you can walk into a room and you can acknowledge the problems and you can try to give people an answer. have a little hope. tell them they can be solved because these things can be fixed an they're not even that difficult to fix. it's just that people have to remember they're americans before they're republicans and democrats and we got to fix the country. that's all. [ applause ] >> so the fear is real, the anger is real. why are they all voting, 15 million people if you count up all the votes in the primaries, voting for trump and cruz, the guys you say are exploiting it? why are they getting the votes? >> i grew up in a blue collar neighborhood, as you know.

i understand these fears and frankly people think if a politician's lips are moving, they're lying. people say why does he keep talking about his record? i talk about my record because i think if you can show you did it a couple times, you actually fixed things, then you have credibility for doing it the third time. and -- but i think people have just kind of had it. here is another thing they say. i hate political correctness, okay? i get that. but we don't want to like get rude. you know, that's not where the country should head and i tell you they have all the publicity, too. trump, are you kidding me? he's like up there all the time, and he just caught a wave, and i think it was the first debate i said don't dismiss what this guy says. it's serious. >> yeah. >> but, but, i think now that people are beginning to hear a little bit of a message that we have, we continue to do better, and they still -- here is the way it kind of looks right now in the three-wan mace. there's coke, there's pepsi, and

there's kasich. >> what's selling? [ applause ] >> you're not supposed to clap for that. you're supposed to cry when i say that. and then three the other part of it. now there's kind of like coke, pepsi, kasich, and you're shopping with your spouse and you're looking at what you're going to buy and people are beginning to realize there's this uncola called kasich but they still don't know enough about me, and so i've been playing from behind the whole time. but, you know, what's amazing? i'm still standing and there were 17 of us and now we're down to 3. [ applause ] >> let's talk about -- we're not going to get rid of fear or anger because its justified. how does john kasich, that third brand, deal with -- let's talk about a couple things. is illegal immigration, mainly from latin america, is that a real problem or not? >> i think it is.

>> what are you going to do about it? >> we need to make sure -- in '86 reagan had a plan. >> i know, it was never enforced. >> we have to enforce it. we have to say you can't just walk into this country willy-nilly. we lock our doors at night so people don't walk into our homes, they shouldn't be able to just walk into our country. so it is an issue -- [ applause ] >> it's an issue of laws but it's also becoming more and more a national security issue. let's control a border and then we can have a guest worker program. people come in and work and go back and for the 11.5 that are here, we're not going to yarng them out of their home and deport them. >> let's talk about tomorrow night who are coming here illegally. we're probably not going to deport 12 million people or 11 million people but there's probably a fellow in mexico or el salvador. there's a job open. his cousin calls him and says there's a job in a kitchen in chicago. it's off the books. as long as people hire people

illegally, people are going to come to this country illegally no matter how many walls there are. you'd get here and i'd get here. what are we going to do about the businessman who hires -- >> we'll hold him accountable? >> how do we do that? >> you fine them. >> that would stop them? >> let me tell you something, small businesses whether it's construction industry or whether it's a service industry, there's not big margins. i mean, they work on small margins, and we just have to have a system that says -- >> do like e verify. you like e verify. >> from what i know about it. we pay our tacks. we're going to pay our tacks. i already paid mine last week. we pay our tacks. why do people pay their taxes because they have a sense if they don't, they might get caught. >> also they're honest. >> i'm saying what we're driving is why would you have compliance? well, because there is a certain sense like i don't want the irs coming after me. >> i understand. >> and that's not -- people feel

they have to pay their taxes. most employers don't want to hire illegals, but if you put a consequence -- >> they don't want to hire illegals? they get the most work out of them and the cheapest money. >> most don't, come on. >> they don't? >> msnbc, do you hire illegals? >> no i'm talking about -- >> i'm talking to you. >> is that a charge? is that a charge? >> no. >> i'm just saying is that a charge? >> yes, it's a charge. >> what's your basis for making a charge. >> because i talk to people and they tell me that's what's going on. what i'm saying -- >> let's get back to serious -- >> i'm saying, one, employers wouldn't want to do that, some do. and compliance where they know there's a fine -- >> why is your party not passed a comprehensive immigration reform bill which had e verify and good stuff and 12 republican senators backed it and the house speaker wouldn't bring it up. boehner wouldn't even let it come to a vote. why don't you bring things to a vote? >> can i give you an answer.

i'm serious. because i'm not president. because i'm not president. if i was president that he would bring it up. >> if you were speaker would you have brought it up? >> would i have brought it up? >> would you have brought up votes if most people wanted to vote for it. >> i'm not speaker but i was budget chairman. do you want to talk -- >> i want to know why we can't get stuff done? >> because everybody is polarized. we know that. >> including your party. >> look, i have said there's two things that have been happening lately. one is so the president does these executive orders, bypasses congress, bad idea. secondly -- >> maybe because he can't get a vote -- >> can i just finish this train of thought. >> it's all part of this argument you're in. plame t blame the other party -- >> you didn't let me finish. >> go ahead. i think i did but go ahead. >> no, you didn't. here what i was saying, the president did these things but then we had a republican who went to the state of the union and when the president of the united states was talking, he shouted you lie! >> i know. >> okay. it's a pox on both houses.

you know, first of all, i said we're americans before republicans and democrats. you know what my 16-year-old daughter said the other night, she said we live in the united states of america not the divided states of america. it's leadership, chris. it's leadership. >> let's get the sequence right. i'm not here to defend obama on this because i don't like the executive orders but he did it after the republican speaker wouldn't bring up a comprehensive immigration bill so we get this thing behind us. >> chris, look, i have just got to tell you for a long time now, they have not been able to communicate. >> i agree with that. >> okay. what happened? why did it stop? >> i will tell you a really good story never been told before. i was -- i got a call from boehner. he said i want you to come play golf with the president and the vice president. so we go out and we get there, biden has been out there for two hours practicing, and he's all lathered up and everything. boehner takes obama, i take biden. after the first hole i never saw joe. he's in the woods the whole

time, but -- >> see what you're doing here. >> i love biden, okay? he's a good guy, okay? i don't agree with him but i like him and say this about him, that guy has been through some hell with the loss of his son, with the accident where he lost his wife and i think a child. i mean -- and he's been a great public servant. i don't agree with him but i like him. now -- so we get done playing and we're supposedly having a soft drink but we were drinking beer. let's be clear about it. and i looked at john boehner and i said, boehner, can you believe it, that you're the speaker of the house. your dad owned a bar. you had i don't know how many brothers and sisters and you're the speaker. i said give me a break. i said, joe, you, vice president. are you kidding me? then i looked at -- i said and me, i'm the governor of ohio. me? the governor? and you, you, mr. president, you? come on. i said clearly the lord wanted us to be here so we better do

something while we're here. and the president looked at boehner and he said, you come down to the white house and we'll start talking about the budget, and right after that they started talking. now, the thing fell apart. i don't know why it fell apart, but there was a moment there where there was a connection, and you know what, chris? you know this from the experience you had. where there's a will, there's a way, and we have to get people to rise their performance to a level where they want to help america. they want to fix social security. they want to create economic growth. that's what you do. >> you've been very clear in the last two days, especially with the republican women's group the other day about there are two paths your party could take and one is the dark path and one is your path. but it reminded me of robert frost, two roads diverge to the yellow wood. we all learned that in school but the problem is you're taking the road less traveled. that's the problem. a road of openness and agreement and negotiation and most of the voters out there in your party,

15 million, 3 million voted for you so far, how do come out ahead in this at the convention? how do you get out and become the nominee between now and july? how does it work? >> i'm studying how lincoln got there. he was foured or whatev eth or e got picked. >> i knew lincoln. >> i got you. i almost pulled that on ted but i stopped. i knew reagan. but, chris, look we keep talking about the primary. now, you win a primary, you lose a general, what's the point? do you hang a certificate on your wall? i'm the only one that consistently beats hillary and then yesterday, did you see that little thing they did, 40,000 people they surveyed and they did the electoral college. hillary decisively beat cruz and trump and i decisively beat her. and you know the reason. what the reason is, you know, look the reason is i can appeal to the blue collar workers and i

can appeal to the independents or my team can and we have a proven record of success of solving problems. i don't want to operate in the negative. >> look, you go into cleveland. it's in your state and everybody knows republicans don't win presidential elections without ohio. it's never happened. it's the one state your party needs. but you get to the convention. suppose trump doesn't get even 1100. he doesn't get the gym mimme. >> that doesn't happen. >> you get there and all of a sudden trump starts making speeches which he's already begun to make. if i don't get this thing, it's been fixed and i'm walking or running third party. we don't know what he's going to do but he's going to blow his stock. he says one word, democracy. he got the most votes. shouldn't he be the nominee over somebody who got one-fifth the number of votes? >> great point. >> how do you fight democracy? >> there's only one problem with that. we know that to get an "a," you

need to make a 90. so somebody makes an 83 and says, you know what? i did better than everybody else, i should get an "a." no, no, no, you didn't get a 90. >> why do you apply that rule when in every sport we fight in this country the team that gets the most points in basketball wins. the baseball team that gets the most runs wins. >> once you finish the fourth quarter and once you finish nine innings. we're not done yet. >> how do you explain -- >> because because -- [ applause ] >> because -- >> every election that's ever been held in this country they don't say you didn't get 33 million. all you have to do is get one more vaet than the other guy. that's -- >> no, not true. have you heard of this thing called the electoral college. i can throw that argument right back on you. >> you think you can beat the word democracy. >> this is al gore's argument. he wasn't president. >> somehow i think the democrats were more docile than the people for trufer. i don't see the people for trump

saying i guess we lost, we're going home. i don't think they're going to be like that. >> let me tell you something, there are people who are for trump who are really not for trump. >> okay. >> you know that. here in new york -- >> i don't know that. >> yeah, you do. >> what is this big conversion. you get to cleveland and all the delegates that got there because of trump or got there because of cruz are going to say something has just come over me. kasich, kasich. i'm going to vote for kasich. how is that going to happen? >> i'm going to tell you how it's going to happen. first of all, the trump voters are comfortable with me and the more they know me, the more they like me. you know why? because i grew up more like them than trump did. number one. >> that's an argument. but you haven't convinced them. >> they don't know me yet, chris. >> when are -- >> when you keep putting me on tv. >> it's april. we're getting close. >> but here is the thing, remember the coke, pepsi, and kasich. now it's people are beginning to say, lady come up to me in new york last saturday. she said i need to take a picture with you. i said why is that?

she says, well, because i was for kasich before it was cool to be for kasich and that's starting to turn. now, let me tell you what happens up there. when people become delegates, they assume -- there's a gravity that sets in. they realize they're picking somebody who can be president and somebody who has to win. and i think at the end of the day when they're there, they take on a different role, and who are the delegates going to be? a lot of them are going to be people who worked in the party vineyards for 40 years. so i think it's very possible. now it will be up to me to convince the delegations -- >> to overrule the voters. >> we're not overruling anybody. you've got to get the magic number. what are you kidding me? >> i have pushed this -- i have made my point and you answered the question. >> you didn't make a very good point. i made a better point. [ cheers and applause ] >> you know i'm letting you do this. i'm letting you do this. let's go to the first question. let's go. from the audience, the people

here. >> i'm steve young and welcome. i am a legal resident and it's a pleasure to have the opportunity to talk to you. chris matthews has -- i don't want to say trump but he has trumped by what i was going to ask because you're talking a lot about the number of votes -- >> the process and all this. >> and you will of that and i hate to say it, but a lot of us coke drinkers are not going to switch to the uncola and that's why coke is so popular. don't you feel at some point that you have a responsibility to voters to be -- to recognize the fact that they're not voting for you? i know you keep saying and i'm listening to you say people are jumping on your bandwagon. but what if they don't? are you going to be comfortable going into a convention, it looks like it's going to be chaotic and really a problem and you're going -- >> who told you that? ed media? they haven't been right about one thingle thing they've said

since this election has been going. [ applause ] let me answer the question. i'm watching primary results and i will tell you, i was very interested in your campaign from day one. you're not new to this, and it just hasn't resonated, and at some point, i mean, who told you, you know, that you're all that popular now when the vote -- we're looking at the new york polls, and your vote is really not where it needs to be and at some point are you going to recognize that because i do think that there is some responsibility to democracy -- >> let me tell you what the responsibility is. the responsibility is to run for an office and give people solutions and lift them. the responsibility is not to talk about dividing people, gnashing teeth, turning them against one another. i will not participate in that, okay, sir? now, now, now let me tell you this. if i don't win, i'll be a

gentleman. i'm not going to say that my people are going to walk out. i'm not going to say -- i'm not going to say any of the things i have heard said either by him or by other people. you see, it's important that people hear the message that they matter, that they ve a god-given purpose, that they need to solve problems in their neighborhoods. you know, come to the town halls and see what happens there. you know, it's important. it is important for people to hear a different message than a message of negativity. i want to give them a message of hope, and you know what? we're in new york and there was this guy, he once said one time, it ain't over till it's over and his name happened to be yogi berra, but thank you. >> thank you. i think you made your point. >> i just want to tell you, i really appreciate the way you're approaching this. however, we also need to look at the vote. so thank you. >> god bless you, appreciate

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we're back here from jericho, new york, on long island with governor john kasich. he has a lot of fans here. i don't know where to start but i want to ask a question before this lady has a chance and the rest of the audience but i have to do a couple of these things. first of all, i'm trying to think about your party and you're talking about your path and the other path being a dark path and you have the right path. two years ago your party had this autopsy, it sounds pretty grim, but the idea wation how do we bring in more people who aren't usually republicans? who do we bring in people hispanic and gay people and african-americans, and how is that going? gay people, how is that going honestly? is that working?

>> well, it's working in ohio. >> yeah, but this nation -- national debate. >> it's part of why i'm running. i have a right to define what it means to be a conservative and to be a republican. so, you know, and in my re-election i received 60% of women, 51% of union households. pretty amazing and 26% of the african-american -- >> despite the opposition from the democrats. >> well, and the thing is that when you bring people together and you can lift them -- i was in baltimore yesterday, and i'm very worried about baltimore from the standpoint of those riots we saw. so we were talking about it and some guy says, you know how you solve a lot of these problems? create jobs. >> i agree. >> and it's exactly right. and that's what we've tried to do in the state and we have, and everybody gets lifted. i got one other thing i'll tell you. for 30 years i worked on balancing the budget, and i always had problems trying to explain to people exactly why it mattered. now i can tell you. i figured it out. we have a $19 trillion debt. when the debt goes up, your job opportunities go down. and when the debt comes down,

your job opportunities -- >> explain the connection. how does it work that way? >> what you do is make job creators very nervous. when they think the debt is out of control, they just don't invest and they don't create jobs and it's particularly through small business. so it is debt. it's also higher taxes. look at connecticut. and it's also regulations. so there are three things you need to do to create jobs and these precisely what we did in the state, what i did in washington, what i will do again. but when you have jobs, then you have a chance to reach out to people who often feel neglected, the mentally ill. they shouldn't be living under a bridge or in prison. the drug addicted. you can then have the resources to treat them, to get them on their feet. so that is a republican party that i believe in. one that is all about opportunity but, chris, as my mother used to say about the poor, it's a sin not to help somebody who needs help but it's equally a sin to continue to help somebody who needs to learn how to help themselves. that's a good philosophy. [ cheers and applause ]

>> men just love talking politics. women more so every year but there are more women voters than there are men and 75% of american women voters right now say they will not vote -- they do not trust, do not like donald trump. >> right. that's pretty unbelievable. >> well what do you -- >> you've got to work to get that unpopular. >> well, he has. >> he has. >> these fights with carly fiorina and megyn kelly. >> why would i not be in the race? this is a guy with a 75% negative among married women. are you kidding me? when are we going to get the menu. think of the menu he would present. nobody is going to order anything off the menu, okay? we're not only going to lose the white house, the court is gone, and then the courthouse to the state house. we'll just take a drubbing but that's why he's not going to win. why he's not going to get picked. >> but a lot of women may be fiscally conservative about you, may be worried about tacxes lik you and they are conservative.

they're pro-choice in many case approximates. >> that's divided. >> it's divided but a lot of republican women are pro-choice in this state. and there are a lot of women saying i'm straight, i'm married to my husband, but the fact that two guys or two women get married doesn't affect me any. what's your view on those subjects? >> i support traditional marriage -- >> what does that mean? >> between a man and woman. >> i know that. >> let me finish. >> exclusively to them? >> i said the court has ruled and we're not going to pass any laws now. see, there's an issue here though that i keep wading into. people ask me, look, chris, there is a conflict to some degree between people practicing their deeply held religious beliefs which they have a right to do and the issue of discrimination against somebody that they think is doing something inappropriate. that has to be balanced, and what i have tried to argue is everybody just take a breath. and let's just try to understand one another a little bit better and be more tolerant because once you write a law, then they

keep -- you keep rewriting the laws because you never get this right. >> do you tolerate same-sex marriage? >> yes. i went to one. >> i know you did. >> i don't think it's right and the wedding i went do, they know i don't agree with them. >> what should gay people do who love each other? >> what should they do? >> they should love one another. that's the end of it. >> but not get married. >> i have given you the answer. i believe in traditional marriage. i have accepted the court ruling. so the here is the thing. there could be an effort to pass a constitutional amendment. i'm not for doing it. i'm for moving on. and you know what? i'm also a believer that if i don't like what somebody is doing, i got a couple things i can do. i can tolerate it, i can say something, or another thing i can do, i can pray for a person. that's another thing i can do. okay? so you're not driving me into some ditch here, chris. i'm not trying to. >> you're not going to. >> let me ask you about ditches

is usually selected by the candidates. >> yes, it is, it is. >> because i think it was interesting that you would go to a gay -- this is in my special field of interest but the fact you would go to a gay wedding and you would help celebrate it with people and you would say i believe in traditional marriage. i still don't get your exact position. would you like to change the law? >> look, i'm exactly where it is now i'm fine with it. i just don't want anybody kind of on either end trying to drive controversy because it -- >> i know. >> it has to do with respecting people's deeply held religious beliefs versus, you know, something that could be discriminatory and it has to be -- >> it just sounds very different to a person here what you're saying than what ted cruz says. >> but i'm running. i'm a candidate of hope, okay? >> i'm trying to bring out the differences in what the candidates stand for. cruz is, you know, evangelical and he runs on this kind of thing. you don't. >> no. >> let's get a question. >> governor kasich, thank you

and welcome to beautiful long island. >> strong island some of us call it. >> yes. yes. [ applause ] >> that is true. >> i have eaten my way across the entire state of new york, and i have had the best time, and you know they talk about new york values, i bring my -- i have twin daughters, you know, and a wife and my wife and i come here and i i take one of them each to new york and you know what? there's not a greater place in the world than new york. [ cheers and applause ] >> and that's not pandering. i really love it. i think it's -- look, you're alive, you're young -- >> would you want to live here? >> i have been in and out of here for ten years. no, no. here is why i don't want to live here. first of all, i love where i live and i love ohio but the thing that would be a challenge for me, traffic and things like that. but that's why i don't want to live here, but i love coming here, okay? but i want to invite you all to come to ohio.

it's great. i'm telling you. >> so governor -- >> your question? >> allow me to introduce myself. i'm dr. cynthia polles. i am a proud veteran. i have served this country. i have scholarship through medical school and i work with the native americans in oklahoma and afterward i segued down to texas. i have had a unique experience. for almost 20 years i worked the border towns in texas. i worked brownsville, laredo. i worked all those towns that we affectionately refer to as the knife and gun club. i worked the night shift there. you talk about building bridges. i literally got to see what that wall was like, which is like swiss cheese or it doesn't exist. the question is have you done your homework? i'm going to go into that voting booth next week. you're one of the few candidates -- well, the only person that's really gone down to see the border was donald trump. he gets it. he talked to the border patrol. he talked to the people.

>> what policy would you push? >> i feel that those borders need to be secured, and i do. and i'll tell you why. i'll tell you why. because the crime is rampant. i mean, it's one thing you're talking the talk and i do like you, but i'm concerned that why have you not gone down to the border? why have you not talked to the people there and see what these people are experiencing? >> let me get an answer. >> i have talked to people but i haven't actually been there to look at the wall. >> why not? >> there's only so many hours in a day. there are a lot of places i would like to go all over the country but there's only so much time. but i absolutely believe we have to secure the border. i know we have to secure the border. we were just talking about in '86 reagan and the republicans and democrats passed a plan on immigration, but we just talked about it, we didn't enforce it, and we need to enforce it, and we have to protect our border. and i'll tell you, it's not just because of that.

i worry about isis or people who are part of that coming into our country. so it's a given. it's a given we do that, but we shouldn't just do that and then wait -- do it all at one time. if somebody comes across that border, we have to send them back now. no more coming in. and you have to do it legally. >> thank you. thank you very much for that description. stay with us. much more of our msnbc town hall with ohio governor john kasich still ahead. we'll be right back. (laughing) there's nothing like making their day. except making sure their tomorrow is taken care of too. financial guidance

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we're back with governor john kasich. let's go to the next question. sir? >> i'm nathan jackson. i'm a publicist and i want to thank you, governor, for coming to one of our long island landmarks, the milleridge inn, and a quick question. what are your plans for national health care? i know everybody is talking about repealing obamacare, but most of the country wants it. >> well, look, the problem with obamacare is three things. the first problem is that health care costs continue to rise. they haven't dealt with that problem. secondly, insurance costs have skyrocketed, and thirdly small businesses don't want to expand because they don't want to get caught in it. so is there an alternative? there better be.

first of all, i would take some of the federal resources, combine it with medicaid which i would send back to the states. let the states create their own way of covering the working poor so millions of americans don't lose health insurance but that's first step. the longer step would be we are driving in our state which can be taken nationally towards total transparency. we want to know the quality of the hospital. we want to know the costs of the hospital. we want to know the quality of a physician. we want to know the costs of a physician, and we are creating a system working with the insurance industry and the hospital and the physicians to reward people who reward high quality below the average. if you are providing high quality and your costs are low, we're going to give you a financial reward. this will work in driving down, putting downward pressure on health care costs because we keep going the way we're going, look at our deductibles. we might as well have catastrophic policies now. so i believe -- look, we're actually doing this in our state.

not just the government, but also the private sector and we want to take this nationally. so -- >> but you would repeal obamacare? first before you got something new? >> i'd switch it all out, yeah. >> next question. sir? >> hello, governor. i'm joseph deanglo. i'm an educator. my question involves an incident yesterday where a warship in the baltic, an american warship, was buzzed by two russian fighters and a helicopter, and this is part -- i'm assuming an attempt to incite an incident. this is part of a continuing problem that's occurred in china and also, for instance, the events in iran with the taking of one of our patrol boats. i was curious what you might do about such an international affair. >> well, look, i mean i served on the armed services committee for 18 years, and i saw everything from the build up of

our military to the collapse of the berlin wall to pushing saddam out of kuwait, and i was in the pentagon after 9/11 at the request of secretary rumsfeld. the one thing you have to do is you have to be strong, sir. you can't say one thing and do another, and you also have to stay cool. we don't need to have an international incident or a war but we need to make it clear to people we're not going to tolerate this kind of behavior. for example, i would tell putin we are going to arm the ukrainians so they can fight for their freedom, and by the way if you try -- [ applause ] -- if you think you can invade nato and not be attacking us, you're wrong, okay? with the chinese, you don't own the south china sea, and the fact is if you cyber attack us, we're not only going to ge fend ourselves but we're going to take your systems out. see, a lot of it is saying what you mean and meaning what you say. but we don't want to get all worked up about something that can take us down the path where we may not be able to get back. now, this world needs to unify.

we have to destroy isis. the same coalition we used in the first gulf war. we have to go and get them with the arab, muslim nations along with europe and ourtsds. when we beat them, we settle it, let them redraw the map because they will redraw the map of the middle east and finally and honestly, the civilized world has to beat the barbarians, and so we've got to take lemons and turn it into lemonade and we've got to bring the whole civilized world together, not only on the military issues, but also intelligence and policing so that we can all be aware of where these people are so we can destroy them before they destroy any of the people that we love. okay? >> can i -- [ applause ] i want to follow up on how hawkish to dovish you are, where you are in that spectrum. i think hillary clinton is much more hawkish than people think. bernie is not. >> she is.

she screwed up libya. >> i want to talk about your policies. you talk about having a significant component of ground troops and going after isis. you also supported the iraq war in 2002. you voted for it like hillary did. >> in 2002 i wasn't a congressman than. >> you supported it. >> we should go to war with iraq is a direct quote. you said that. >> can i explain why? >> sure. >> we had intelligence that indicated saddam had weapons of mass destruction. if he did not, i wouldn't have wanted to go. >> who told you he did? >> colin powell, the world, the united nations. >> do you think he was telling the truth? >> well, i don't think somebody was lying from what i know, chris. >> i taukds to the top briefer from the cia in may of 2015 last year, who said saddam hussein, no one ever said to the administration meaning cheney or "w" that saddam hussein had nuclear weapons.

>> a all this talk was not true. >> what did powell say. >> do you just believe people like that? >> colin powell? >> yeah. >> did -- >> did he actually say nuclear weapons or use the phrase weapons of mass destruction and confuse it a little bit? >> here is what i would tell you. when reagan had troops in lebanon, i voted against having them there. i said you don't get in civil wars. i now believe we need to get out of afghanistan. if i was president i wouldn't be announcing the time line but i would give the aircraft that the afghans need and i'd get out of there, and if we saw, you know, people acting up in there, we'd use special forces to take them out. let me go on. i have never been for being in the middle of civil wars. i'm not in favor of using u.s. forces on the ground against -- >> why were we in iraq? >> because we thought he posed a danger to us and the world. >> what was the danger exactly? >> nuclear weapons. >> who told you he had nuclear

weapons? >> i just wonder who told you -- >> yeah, i did answer that but i heard colin powell, i heard cheney, i heard the president of the united states, and so did tony blair, and now he's being castigated for bad intelligence. it is critical that we have good intelligence. if i'm president, let me tell you the way you do it. you sit in a room with your traditional intelligence person and you have your nontraditional intelligence person. you have your traditional military adviser and you have your nontraditional military adviser because you need -- you cannot have group think. if we'd have had group think, kennedy would have bombed cuba. you have to have a diversity of opinion -- >> you believe "w" had that in the white house? >> i'm not going into what "w" -- >> why would you trust "w" and cheney on an issue of war and peace when they were hawks in their core. they wanted that war and you knew it? >> first of all, i didn't know they wanted that war -- >> they sure as hell did. >> that's your opinion. you should write a book on it. >> it's on the record. [ cheers and applause ]

>> look, chris, i'm just going to tell you clearly, i'm going to tell you clearly now, if saddam had not had that -- if that intelligence information that got tony blair even to go and then they called him bush's poodle, if they didn't have that, i would never have gone. >> i just have one question -- the cia didn't believe they had nuclear weapons, why did everybody else in the administration? >> i think you're now recreating history. >> no, no. >> yes, i think you are. i think you are. [ cheers and applause ] >> i think you are. i think you're now -- look, what you're doing is you're monday morning quarterbacking and saying this and this and this and this wasn't true and -- >> that's how we learn. we learn when we make mistakes. >> that's right and i wouldn't do them again. i would make sure that the intelligence was accurate and if it wasn't accurate, i wouldn't go. >> just for the record, just for the record, i asked all those questions to the top cia briefer to find out what the actual objective truth was, not the political bs and the arguments back and forth and the ideology involved in going into that war and the top briefer who briefed

the administration, mike morell told me on my show, we have the tape, we'll show it, where he said they never had any testimony, they never gave testimony to the administration that saddam hussein had nuclear weapons. however they spun this to get us into that war, it was spin. >> let me say this -- >> it was spin. >> let me say this, first of all, just because one guy says something -- >> he's the chief briefer, the guy that briefed the white house. >> i'll give you my opinion. just because one guy says something and gets a nice headline doesn't make it so. wait a minute, folks. if i thought they manipulated this to get us in a war like that, i would be -- you think i would defend them? are you kidding me? f the republican party is my vehicle. it has never been my mastered. i have never shied away from cite sizing my own party. >> you take dick cheney on good faith. >> i took colin powell and his presentation -- >> who was told what to say by cheney. >> do you know colin powell? >> yes, i know him.

>> how many people -- we found out it wasn't true. you're not implying that he was some sort of a fool or got manipulated -- >> i think he was used. >> okay. and if he was, shame on all of them. >> because people like you and me trust him. that's why they used him because we would believe him. we wouldn't believe cheney. >> we're not going to just go willy-nilly into war anywhere. >> that's what surprised me. why do you want to bring ground troops to fight isis when we've been through the experience of ground troops in the middle east and it hasn't worked. >> it worked great. the first gulf war was a united world. >> because we didn't occupy a country. >> exactly. do you know why? because push the father -- >> knew when to stop. >> but we achieved our objective. >> why do you want to put ground troops -- >> because we have to destroy them. wait a minute, chris. do you actually think that you can destroy them without people on the ground?

are you kidding me? >> what happens when one of our guys gets picked unand they're going to behead him in two days? doesn't that escalate it further? >> no. >> i would think -- >> i'm going to say to you this. isis is spreading. it needs to be destroyed. the caliphate needs to be destr destroyed. it will take a lot of the air out of the radicals. number two, if you're not on the ground, it won't work. you can't just do it from the air. how many wars did we learn that in? but let me tell you this, once they're gone, once they're gone, i'm for getting out of there. i am not for the united states being an occupier. >> look, we went into afghanistan. we went into iraq twice. we went into libya. we're in there now against syria. when are we going to stop this regime change? when are we going to stop this business. it's not working. >> this is perfect because none of these other people can talk about this because they have no experience in this, so it gives me a chance to talk about it. let's talk about libya.

hillary clinton went and put the pressure on the administration to get rid of gadhafi. we should never have done that. gadhafi was working with us. it was a terrible, terrible mistake. >> did you say that at the time? >> yes, yes. we'll check it out. >> check it out. let me talk about afghanistan. i would have never added the extra troops. i would have used special forces and when we see al qaeda somewhere, take them out with drones. take them out with special forces. i want to get out of there. >> but you want to put troops into fighting isis. >> yeah, because isis is different. >> how is it getting out of there? >> chris, i am not for using troops to get rid of assad, but i'm for troops for destroying isis because the longer we wait, the more complicated it will become and the more at risk welling be and we need to defend america. [ applause ] >> we'll have more questions from the voters here when we come back. if you misplace your discover card,

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we're back here in jericho, new york, the center of all support for john kasich. our msnbc town hall continues. next question. >> good afternoon, governor. i want to know what is your position about the north carolina bathroom law. >> well, i think the governor now is trying to go and somehow improve that or fix that, and i wish him the best on that. >> so you have not made a decision. >> we're not passing anything like that in my state. >> okay. >> next question, please. come on. >> i'm a democrat, a liberal democrat actually, but you seem like a really authentic -- >> but you can't cross over so you have to vote for me in the fall. >> you seem like an authentic -- like you have depply held

religious beliefs. i always wanted to ask the question to somebody who wasn't pro-choice. i don't understand the exception choice. if abortion is deemed murder, why you would make any exceptions at all. >> because i think they're appropriate. i just think they make sense to me and that's why i'm for it. by the way, you know, you just brought up the issue of faith. a lot of people say, okay, if you have faith, how does that affect the way you do things? you know, i don't like consult the bible when i try to decide what to do. i would say that the single biggest thing that faith has done for me is to slow me down and make sure that we do pay attention to people who traditionally get run over, and those are -- whether they're the disabled, whether they're the poor. i mean it just forces me -- it doesn't force me, it just makes me more aware and so that's how it's really served me well. >> we'll come right back. we'll be right back with more questions with john kasich. (vo) on the trane test range, you learn what makes our heating

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thanks, by the way to ohio governor john kasich. by the way, governor, i have to wave the new york daily news in your face. you have been endorsed by the daily news. >> i got endorsed by just about everybody. >> and -- >> and i appreciate it. >> and i believe some day will come you will join colin powell in agreeing you made a mistake in iraq. anyway -- >> i want to -- i want to say one last thing. >> to get the record straight, everybody here is for you.

this is not an objective focus group. this is not a focus group. >> when you do shows like this, you're only as good as the person asking questions and i tell you everybody time chris and i get together, i think it's really cool and there's some magic in it and i love doing stuff with him. >> governor, stay with msnbc tonight for continuing coverage of this presidential race. all across this country people are waking up and help is on the way. >> ted cruz is riding high. >> the democrats, we've got a wild-eyed socialist and bernie sanders. >> but now he's on his rival's home turf. >> and i have this guy looking at me talking about new york values with hatred of new york. >> if you want to know what liberal democratic values are, follow donald trump's checkbook. >> can cruz win over new york voters and cut into trump's big lead in the empire state. >> we will not give up on our coun