motivate a percentage of the gop base to get out there and get the vote out and we'll see how ted cruz does in indiana. >> he cleared 50% in his home state last week. we'll see if he clears 50 tomorrow night. he has a chance to. thanks for joining us. chuck will be back tomorrow with "mtp daily." stay tuned for a doubleheader that will start at 8:00 and a special edition of "hardball" with chris matthews starts right now. bad news buddies, let's play "hardball." >> good evening. i'm chris matthews in washington and welcome to the special two-hour edition of "hardball." ted cruz and john kasich are trying to do together right now what neither has been able to do on his own, stop donald trump. cruz and kasich have joined forces trying to coordinate their campaigns against trump in the primary states after tomorrow's five states.

trump calls the arrangement collusion and may well play directly into his argument that republican nomination process itself is rigged. nbc's kelly o'donnell is rhode island where trump had a rally today and national political reporter for the national post and nbc political analyst and the former chair of the committee and msnbc analyst. kelly, tell us about the rally today and how -- first of all, i got to go through this. cruz and kasich use similar language today explaining their plan to work together. here is how they are talking somewhat differently. let's watch. >> we had conversations and both campaigns agreed to focus on energies, we're focussing our energy on the state of indiana and governor kasich is focussing energies elsewhere. i think that is a decision, an allocation of resources that makes sense and devoted to the principle of beating hillary clinton in november and turning this country around. >> this is a matter of resources

and, you know, we run in the national campaign and we want to apply our resources where we think they can be used most effectively and it's all designed to stop hillary clinton from becoming president. >> they got the talking point there at the end. trump responded to the news saying it made him happy. let's watch him. >> they made a deal, right? that cruz was going to take indiana. how weak is it? how pathetic? how weak does this make them look? i said that's great it will make them look weak and pathetic, which they are as politicians. >> i don't know, some of this seems thelma and luiz. would you answer this question, they keep saying cruz kasich. how do we know it's not kasich cruz? who is on top of the fight? who is the leader and who is the follower? >> i think it's interesting to see which way that should go because there were certainly times earlier in the election season when the kasich team

wanted to have this kind of an arrangement where they could direct their energies in different ways to better go after trump and prevent him than to battle each other but as sources have been telling me, it was the cruz team reaching out to kasich over the weekend. if we only look waback over the last couple days, cruz was the moe motivator because he reached that point looking at the numbers and time left and see they cannot get to the 1237 on their own for a long time they believed they could and that's when kasich was trying to get this deal to go along. so i think as we sit right now, it is a cruz kasich deal motivated more from the cruz side but there is benefit to both. i was in that tent behind us here, chris, when donald trump was on stage today and he was just lapping up the opportunities to smack both of the candidates not just once or twice but repeatedly in the sort of bigger than life terms that

he does in a mocking way, in a way to under cut their strategy and of course, negotiating is such a part of trump's theme to his campaign for him to be able to attack a political negotiation, he seemed to really savor that today. >> here is donald trump. as kelly said, some energetic attacks on kasich and cruz today. let's watch him. >> now you look at kasich, i don't think he -- did you see him? he has a news conference all the time when he's eating. i have never seen a human being eat in such a disgusting fashion. i'm always selling my young son baron and i'm always with my kids, all of them. i'd say children, small, little bites. small. this guy takes a pancake and shoving it in his mouth. [ laughter ] >> it's disgusting. he's just a stubborn guy, that's all. like you have a child, i want it, mommy, i don't care mommy.

he's like a basket case. anything about the economy, he was it. all he is is the guy that will go down and stand and filibuster for a day or two and the other senators and jim, guy is a pain in the [ bleep ]. when is he getting off the floor. >> we clean that up a bit by removing the pain in whatever. robert costa thank you. this was cruz -- i mean, trump at his finest or worse. here is the game i'm interested in figuring out and i know they don't want to have this question. as i said, ask kelly. is it kasich cruz or cruz kasich. who will be the top dog in cleveland? who is the guy they will run for president when this little duet gets together here?

>> they have movement activist and ideal logs that never drifted to trump. when it comes time at a convention, those people, that block is going to be the power center and when you ask them how they figure that, they say look at the state conventions where cruz has been accumulating delegates is because of the activists base and they think kasich if he's not going to join cruz on the ticket, if he could be an ally, that's quite a coalition. >> he is deputy dog? does he accept that role? after all these months of running for president s he willing to be deputy dog for cruz? >> i don't think deputy dog is the word i would use but i think the deal says a lot. significant moment. kasich who is stubborn, who wants to be his figure doesn't like to have a bond or relationship with other candidates on the field. he's actually cutting a deal publicly and that's maybe not joining the ticket at this moment, but that's working with them. >> okay. let me ask, michael, you're an expert of the internal doings of the republican party events.

why would these two guys do this late last night and publicly? why would the two campaign spokes people or leaders come out and say john weaver and the other guy, why would they say we are cutting this deal? if they don't tell the voters how to vote which they don't seem to want to do because they both want voters to vote for them after they both lose five races tomorrow, that's what we're really talking about after they take five more collisions with destiny tomorrow, they then say we're going to try to win this one state of indiana but they can't decide who supported to win it, who the voters are supported to vote for. why did they announce it last night? >> this is part of the -- >> aren't back room deals supposed to be back room deals. >> it's a back room deal with transparen transparency. they knew this would get out there. there is much more damage if this was done in the quiet and dead of night and they try to do it without disclosing exactly what their efforts were. much more damage to cruz from that. this is part of the argument of

transparency that look, people have been saying that we should come together to stop donald trump. now we have. and here is the benefit of that. you're going to have both of us, the conservative and moderate republican teaming up and going after trump to stop him. the problem, chris, is it's too little too late. you said they will take another shellacking of five states tomorrow that momentum is ever building and the idea that you think that if one of them drops off at some point, that their vote then accrues 100% to the other, is that believable? trump gets about one-fifth of each vote so the reality of it is, this i think is one of those show me efforts that doesn't get that far down the road. >> let me get back -- is kelly -- i want to get back to kelly first. are you still with us? >> yes. >> the message is clear they want to go after hillary clinton. that's the automatic -- that's cabinet for the republican audience to say we're going

after hillary but they didn't seem to figure out whom should vote for whom. kasich -- listen to this, his supporters in indiana should still vote for him and trump mocked cruz and kasich over the deal. let's watch this and back to you. >> they made a deal but like every politician they don't know how to make deals and cruz is all thinking that kasich doesn't want any votes from indiana. kasich this morning said what are you talking about? i want people in indiana to vote for me. in other words, you broke the deal. >> how do we figure this out? they didn't agree on the first state, indiana. they both want republican voters to vote for them. each of them. >> this is delicate balance. part of the timing is john kasich was supposed to spend tomorrow night in indiana, the state to come next. so by changing his schedule, if he doesn't show up, you might get the whiff of is he dropping

out? part of announcing the deal so try to blunt anything like that. -on the other issue, each candidate believes they will be the nominee. that's the mind of a candidate. you can never pull back from your belief so they don't want to alienate voters. they don't want to tell voters that your vote, which is a precious right and you may be driven by ideology or politics or some kind of emotion, they don't want to cheapen the vote by saying just follow our strategy. what they are hoping is voters passionate, energetic and understand what has been happening in this wild election season may ultimately choose to vote strategically. the other big clue sources are telling me is they wanted to signal to donors and those desperate anti trump groups money is needed to fight trump and a focus to reach 1237. there are different audiences for the deal and one that might matter most, each candidate

wanted to be careful to not offend them while at the same time engaged in this really complicated tactical strategy to try to save their candidacies. >> i want to -- robert to follow. here is the problem. if you're a moderate republican, old school republican and you're probably for kasich or a real, real -- i want michael to followup. a real staunch across the board conservative. why would a moderate jump across, jump over trump to go for the hard right guy because they have a deal or why would a hard right deal jump for the moderate? seems like you're asking voters to vote against the philosophy not to be strategic but the believes for this deal. >> it's also trying to find some consensus with both sides. i just got back from the rnc meeting and if cruz and kasich can get together with a strategy on a ticket, whatever it is, that could be the strongest possible anti trump force if

there is a second ballot at the convention in cleveland. i think kelly was also right that this was also a signal to the super pac. want to make sure money is allocated where they would like to see it allocated. >> michael, let me ask you about the question. how does a republican of the northeastern persuasion from the burbs, a woman, moderate republican woman told to vote for ted cruz? i don't see how that works even in -- i don't see how it works in the suburbs of indiana. >> i don't think it does work and that's the problem. again, that's why trump is harping on the narrative about process right now and how it resonates with a lot of voters. kasich voters not necessarily going to jump over the fence for cruz voter and vice versa. they may like want to stop trump but they just won't vote, which of course supports trump, helps trump in that type of scenario. there are a lot of different

dynamics at play and whether they are packed or this coalition of talent running for the presidency and cruz and kasich try to find that sweet spot. they can't right now. if this were the beginning of the process or heck, the middle of it. you may be talking something because you have a long runway to build it up. but with indiana staring you in the face right before you go into the five states that will be merciless tomorrow, i don't see how this changes much of anything. >> matthew wrote today the kasich cruz deal was sen nickel. yes, it's politics and yes, i get the attraction to the end goal of the ugly example of political conclusion but it provides us with yet another reminder why so many people are sick of politics as it is so often played and why donald trump and his political circus

he calls the campaign appealed to so many people this year. i don't know, maybe i'm just grumpy because john kasich was the only rational candidate left in the republican field and over the weekend he decided to turn his back on indiana. i want to run through everybody starting with kelly here. what do you think -- is there any feeling you're getting about is this the latest political manipulation? do voters feel they are being played? what are they thinking? >> voters were uncomfortable and just as the piece really laid it out, there is one thing you know that politics can be deal making, this is so bare, and so i think there may be some real challenge for voters to accept this. those who were never going to vote for either cruz or trump might be even more turned off and it really would take those who can almost, you know, hold their nose and follow a strategy is asking a lot of voters. we've seen other kinds of campaigns, not just at the national level but in local communities where deals are

struck among political but not asking the voters to participate. we've seen before where someone steps out of a race to let somebody else go forward but this is one where you're trying to engage the voters in a political maneuver and many of them may not want to go along. at the same time, we're talking about survival for kasich and cruz. reince priebus made it clear they will not bend the rules and so that says to them, if trump gets close but not all the way, there is that open convention they are looking for. so i think you're getting to the point where there is very limited time left in the road. they know they have to from their point of view prevent him from getting to the number if there is anyway to do it. it's such a tall order. they are going to this sort of extreme, chris? >> you just said kelly is the best thing i've heard in awhile. the idea people who are professional politicians don't mind making back room deals but don't ask the people, the regular civilians, the innocence out there to play your games. anyway, thank you so much.

kelly, robert, migchael, as always. >> much more to come in this special two-hour edition of "hardball" the latest twist and turn of the election. we expect to hear from ted cruz, by the way, within this hour and at the top of the hour, donald trump is set to take the stage in pennsylvania. what a great city. plus, the latest from the democrats and what's the plan for bernie sanders if he drops four or even five of the states tomorrow night. what's he going to do? this is "hardball" the place for politics. poor mouth breather.

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we have now won the primaries and caucuses in 16 states throughout -- [ cheers ] >> and with your help, we're going to win here in connecticut tomorrow. [ cheers ] >> that was of course, senator bernie sanders revving up troops in connecticut, which is one of the five voting tomorrow. he could win in connecticut. she's also up nine points in rhode island according to a poll

in brown university out today. secretary clinton up by 15 in pennsylvania and 25 the margin in maryland. well, yesterday on "meet the press" senator sanders acknowledged he has a narrow path to winning the nomination. >> obviously, our goal, we have a narrow path to victory and will fight through the path we hope to win but i think the fact that we have shown that there is massive dissatisfaction in this country. people are showing in this campaign the desire to stand up and fight back. >> wow. if senator sanders suffers a big loss tomorrow night, will it be time for him to have a heart to heart with supporters. a democrat from pennsylvania, he has so far stayed neutral and irving randolph endorsed senator sanders. gentlemen, thank you for joining us. let me talk to congressman boyle. do you have an announcement to

make tonight? >> chris, hello from your hometown of philadelphia. i wanted to let friends of mine and also folks of my district know that after a careful consideration, i've decided i'm going to endorse hillary clinton and will be voting accordingly tomorrow and i -- when i go to the polls, i mostly have been focussing my time on my brother kevin's state senate race. i've been more focused on that. i said i'd make up my mind before i voted tomorrow and that's my decision. >> let me ask you about your decision. is it based on the fact hillary clinton is a lifelong democrat and bernie sanders is a lifelong independent? do you like the fact she's a regular party member? does that influence your thinking? >> i mean, you're -- >> one -- isn't that the way people think in philly, you got to think with the organization with city committee? >> that really wasn't one of my considerations. i decided to go with hillary clinton for three reasons. first, and shoe's gotten no

credit for this. she has the best student loan reform plan out there and i read every word and i'm excited about it. the second, she's by far the best prepared to be president when it comes to foreign policy and third, finally, i believe electability is also a vital issue. the idea of a donald trump or ted cruz becoming president is frightening and i do believe hillary clinton would be our best candidate for a general. >> let me go to mr. irving for that. by the way, great to have you on and a great newspaper. i followed it for years. how old is the tribune? how old is the tribune? >> 130 years old. >> i thought so. great history. >> started in 1884. let me ask you about your support of your paper for senator sanders, what's that about? give us your thinking. >> well, it was a tough decisions but decided senator

sanders presents a bolder and more inspiring vision and not kind of an increate mental plan that secretary clinton is presenting and time in america to think big again. we haven't had big bold ideas really since the '60s and the time requires it when you look at the frustration level on both sides, on the democratic side and republican side and one reason why donald trump is doing so well, and why senator sanders is doing so well, there's a great deal of frustration. many americans see themselves falling further and further behind. >> i know. >> getting fed up with politics. you need something big and bold right now. >> what do you make -- >> so -- >> what do you make of his philosophy? is there a belief among your readers we really have gotten out of whack in terms of wealth in this country, not just as people are struggling but people are making billions of dollars, the money is almost unimaginable

what people have. these people have money like trump and you hear about that, in the community you serve, do you think people are overwhelmed and think there is something wrong with the economic system when people who don't seem to build anything or do anything are billionaires? i'm asking about your thinking because the socialist, i'm not knocking it at all. socialism doesn't sound as bad as it used to. your thinking. >> he's running as a democrat and not socialist part, he's running as a democrat so i think that says something in terms of where his alignment is, he's a democratic socialist but beyond the labels, we got to look at where we are in this country now. we're looking at both black and white that are so many americans are suffering and being left behind and one of the plans that senator sanders proposes on the free college tuition for public and very important to say public and not all colleges, i think it

gets lost in the debate not for every college but public university, the university is something i do think is needed right now when you look at that force to remain competitive and on the global scale, and for americans to be able to fill the jobs that are going wanting because the education is not there, the skill level is not there, we can't -- the regular approach and giving a little more toward student loans, that is not going to be enough. you need -- you have -- right now you have people going into debt and dropping out of college because they cannot pay the tuition. >> let me go back to that very point to congressman boyle. it's hard to argue if somebody says i'll pay your college if you go to penn state or berkeley or wisconsin or university of new hampshire. that's a hell of an offer. they charge $50,000 a year. where is that money coming from, by the way? where does it come from and how

does hillary match that offer? >> first, as the first of my family to go to college and someone with a lot of student loans and thinks this is a major issue facing not just my generation but our entire economy, i'm glad this has become such an important issue in the presidential campaign and i give bernie sanders credit for raising it. i also give both candidates a tremendous amount of credit for putting this issue front and center but it's not enough to raise the issue. you do have to have an actionable plan where the math adds up and for me, coming to it where i looked -- i genuinely looked at both candidates and plans with an open mind and saw hillary's added up and unfortunately on bernie's, i found it lacking. i do think this campaign is a tremendous positive for the democratic party and for the process because without him, i'm not sure the issues of income inequality really would have gotten the amount of attention that they have so i think his campaign overall has been a

positive but now that we're coming to the conclusion of this process to focus not just raising the issues. >> gentlemen, thank you. come back. managing editor of the philadelphia tribune. reminder, we got town halls with bernie sanders and hillary clinton coming up tonight. coming up at 8:00, chris hayes sits down for a full hour and at 9:00 eastern, riachel maddow interviews hillary clinton. this is "hardball" the place for politics.

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back to "hardball." any moment ted cruz will hold a rally, his fourth event in the state today. while donald trump ripped into cruz at one of his rallies, we'll see if cruz responds in kind. joining me is johnson phillips of the tea party nation and tina, former ben carson campaign advisor. let me go threaten straight, who is on top of this new coalition? who is going to be the presidential nominee under this deal with cruz and kasich? is it kasich? am i teasing? you guys do think it's cruz on top. that's why you're laughing. >> absolutely. >> of course, cruz is on top. did anyone tell kasich he's the under dog? >> i don't think so.

>> you're job is to maybe come in second. >> they have an alliance in their interest. cruz has his pathway to victory. >> i figure trump can win five tomorrow. i think he will. come indiana next week it's a stand alone race. who would the indiana republicans watching right now, who are they supported to vote for, cruz or kasich? tell them now because i hear different voices here. >> i try not to hear voices but ted cruz. >> kasich says they should vote for me. >> exactly. i think this alliance is ill advised. it's ill advised because it only feeds donald trump. it gives him an opportunity to be on stage again doing what he does best rail against ted cruz and rail against kasich. and even today as they have made the alliance, they are not clear on who to vote, who is going to get the vote in indiana. kasich says if you want to vote for him in indiana vote for him. it's not clear at all. i think that -- i understand their fear, but it was -- it was ill advised.

>> whose idea was it to double team trump as we say in basketball? who made the call. >> that, i do not know. >> your guy? >> i do not know. >> our reporter said it was. >> i wasn't involved so i won't tell you it was. here is the thing that's important as they taught us in the first day of law school. define your terms. here is what is happening. this is an agreement kasich will not put his resources into indiana. cruz is not going to put his resources into new mexico or oregon. that's the totality. >> the voters only have one resource, their vote. kelly o'donnell said very interesting a moment ago and she's a reporter and said here is the challenge this whole proposal by trump and cruz and trump and kasich and cruz people. you cut back the deal making public transparent, fine. you're telling voters here is the deal. if you live in indiana and vote republican, vote for cruz, don't forget. you're telling people who are

f f for kasich. they tend to go for the person they are for. i'm just asking. >> a back room deal is a back room deal and they brought it to the light and i guess that can be to their credit. the bottom line is this gives donald trump another opportunity to say i'm an outsider. i don't play these beltway political games. all of this politics that really disturbs the people who are enthusiastic about donald trump. they do not like this. it will only serve to give donald trump for air time, more time against ted cruz and whenever he does that. >> what happens if it does become a ticket? is the problem. this always happens, kasich is sort of like what i would call a traditional republican, relatively conservative but not by the standards of today. he expanded medicare, as governor under obamacare. he says with this bathroom dispute, it's not his issue, he's basically for some exceptional abortion.

cruz is a strong conservative. how did they get together? >> again, i doesn't think they are together. they have an agreement -- >> what effect? >> maximizing resources. >> tell the voter what they are supposed to do. >> to stop donald trump. they rejected donald trump. >> to what effect? >> to keep trump from getting the delegates. >> what? >> does kasich know in the is the deal? this is what is wrong with your deal. the deal is cruz wins and you know that's the deal that's why you're for the deal. has anybody told kasich the deal is you lose? he wants to win. >> and that is very clear because he's telling people to vote for him in indiana. >> he still wants to win but doesn't have a pathway to victory but here is the thing, he agrees his only prayer is to stop trump. cruz has -- >> the pathway is to make john kasich one of the koecobbleston on the path. do you think kasich knows this? >> you know, i don't know what

goes on in kasich's mind. >> would you ever vote for kasich? >> no. >> you would never vote for the guy? you know what is funny, your new coalition. >> i'm voting for senator, i live in tennessee so i did vote for senator cruz and looking forward to voting for him in november. >> had you had the opportunity -- if this alliance had been made for tennessee, would you have voted for senator -- for kasich in tennessee or would you have kept your vote with cruz in tennessee if cruz told you to vote for -- >> great question. you said vote for kasich, would you have done it? >> that would be hard to do. >> that's a tough one. >> that's why this alliance is ill advised. not only is it ill advised because it's going to feed trump. it's ill advised because people passionate about ted cruz won't be passionate about someone as moderate as kasich. >> is carson going to be on the ticket? >> you tell me. >> i'm asking. you're the insider on the trump ticket. >> you know as much as i do --

>> you're smiling. i like smiles. smiles tell me truth. just sort of teasing but i find out things this way. thank you for coming on. >> thank you, dena. >> thank you. the shot you see by the way there on your left, there is the big room waiting for him on the right side of your screen, donald trump up in pennsylvania. at the top of hour, be there. >> could the alliance, thelma and luis. you're watching "hardball" the place for politics.

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welcome back to "hardball." the news ted cruz and kasich agreed to work together to stop donald trump has given trump more ammunition to criticize, mock whatever the nomination process as rigged against him. here is trump earlier today. >> if you collude in business or the stock market you go to jail. in politics because it's a rigged system and corrupt enterprise, in politics you're allowed to collude so they colluded and actually, i was happy because it shows how weak they are. it shows how pathetic they are. >> well, joining me now by our wild round table, amazing round table. political analyst as if we needed more, of course, as if we needed more april ryan white house correspondent and michael, if we needed more from "the

daily beast." >> is this passover? >> i don't think this is the fcc, a rounded round table. for sheer mockery ammunition, this is thelma and luis a duo that doesn't like each other and nothing in common and will do anything to please stop trump. >> yeah, and they aren't going to stop trump. >> five victories tomorrow. >> five victories tomorrow and, you know, i guess this may work in the near term and in the short term goal of preventing trump from indiana it may work -- >> but get you through the night. >> right. >> it will get you through the night. i don't think it will. that's a phrase you may not be familiar with. >> i know frank sinatra. you may think they have a thelma and luis moment where they will go off the cliff together. i don't think so. i don't think it's collusion but strategy. >> you think of this when you hear what i say, don't you. my brother. he's for the yankees, i'm for cleveland. you're for the navy, i'm for the army.

>> i listen to you. you want me to answer your question, don't you, my goodness? >> you're entitled, go ahead. >> i think it's strategy and you' they are hoping to cause a ruckus and if he does not go down the line getting all these wins, they have a chance and maryland is still tricky. >> are they looking at a marriage here? >> no. it will be a quick divorce. it will be a quick divorce. >> going to the convention as a duo. >> no way, i don't think kasich -- >> you don't think it's a marriage. >> no. >> one night. >> this is -- >> or something -- >> two or three nights. maybe a week or a mexican divorce. this is a pea shooter. way too late in the game. no way donald trump is going to come in first by hundreds of delegates over ted cruz. >> i think -- >> millions of votes. >> i think -- >> this isn't going to stop that. >> i think it confuses the opposition. if you're a person who supports

kasich in indiana and the guy comes up to you, some big boss puts out the horn and says vote for cruz because that's the strategy. wait a minute, i'm not going to vote over trump. i'm a moderate republican. why would i vote for cruz? >> that's why kasich, if they go to the convention all three of these people go to the convention. >> i'm talking about indiana next week. >> i understand. if there is not a one, two, three seven for donald trump, there is a chance kasich can wind up in the second ballot. you keep saying that -- >> oh, no way, no way. >> next tuesday after this. nbc news calculates in the first two rallies today trump used the word collusion or a variation of the word a total of 15 times. let's watch some examples of the new word on the block. >> cruz and kasich have just joined forces. i said oh, really? they did, huh? that's called collusion. collusion. >> where they ban together and

where they collude. it's collusion. >> how pathetic is it when they use collusion. >> the establishment guys whether you like it or not have to collude and get together. >> it said that two grown politicians have to collude against one person. >> you're allowed to collude so they colluded. >> okay. my argument is they lose the sharp focus of their appeal. cruz becomes kasich and kasich becomes cruz. it gets weird like conjoined people. not that there is anything wrong with that but the fact is they lose something of their individuality when they play games. so important cruz win, why is he endorsing kasich in oregon and new mexico. if it's so important for kasich to be the nominee as you said he might well be, why is he pushing the most hard right winger in the group? >> i agree. it's very strange. >> confuses voters and angers them. >> kasich says today i wouldn't discourage people from voting for me and muddies the water more and all for wt? it's not for enough delegates i

don't think to get trump off track and i don't understand really why kasich is still in this race -- >> i do. because -- >> because they think what you said. >> kasich -- it might happen. >> there are plenty of people downtown, republicans and you talk to them and they say over and over again kasich. if we can get to the fifth ballot. i know. it's a -- >> but -- >> know him. >> for the general election, kasich is more of the person -- >> kasich can beat hillary on a good night. >> kasich has a lot of liberal leaning ideas in some areas, particularly criminal justice. wait a minute. he is. doubles the man paufacturers an close one eye and turn your head, he used to be a democrat. >> was he a democrat? >> he came from a democratic family and came from congress as a republican. >> used to be a democrat. >> but two guys that got combined 70% of the votes.

>> let's talk about the state of the -- 40 states. forget the iowa. i love the way trump says the states in the islands. he adds them up. 40 states in the union have voted. it's done. we're talking about the home stretch, ten states then the way he will dib bee it up is one state goes to indiana, the most important state of the union and the more liberal i guess the more diverse, new mexico to kasich and oregon is iconic interesting state. it's an interesting state. i'm not sure what the politics are but not right wing. that gets them. of the last ten they are dup. >> new mexico are proportional states. you won't gain a lot of delegates against. may prevent from getting a few but he'll get however many delegates he's going to get, he'll get them regardless of this deal, three or four difference. >> so what are we gaining? the delegates, this is a last

gasp effect effort psychologically. >> trump might be in indiana now. trump will win indiana and blow this combined. >> this is reality. the numbers match, yes, it does. when you go to the convention and don't have the numbers, there will be a fight no matter what you say. you can say it's about what is in the mind. it's about momentum. trump has the momentum possibly tomorrow all the states he'll get. what happens in some other places? happens if the numbers don't add up to one, two, three, seven if he's one or two short. >> kasich. >> okay. let's say it's cruz. >> support in indiana. that's what i want to know. [ laughter ] >> i don't know does he vote there? a great move. anyway, the round table is sticking with us and up next, will sanders supporters support hillary clinton this fall? everybody is talking about that. might as well get to it tonight, this evening and we continue to wait for ted cruz and donald trump at their campaign rallies. there they are. people getting ready and this is

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i think there is a lot that unites us. there is a lot that divides us but on the other hand what divides us is the understanding on the part of millions of people that it really is too late for establishment politics and establishment economics.

>> we're back with the round table. david, april and mike, i want you to start with this. bernie has been raising some tough personal charges against hillary clinton. how does he relength on the issue of releasing transcripts with goldman sachs. >> i asked myself this question a lot of times. i'm not sure. he has used the one line that he can come back on, which is on her worst day she's 100 times better than the republicans and that's -- >> is that a winning endorsement? >> no, he probably needs to do more than that so this is the big question of the next six weeks, eight weeks, how enthusiastic is he going to be? >> who will -- not the free college tuition, the building up of the benefits of social security, the lifetime guarantee of health care. where will she not say okay? >> you know -- >> i think she'll say yes to a lot of it. >> she may have to. she may have to because right now bernie sanders has leverage and the clinton campaign really

does not know bernie sanders politics and they are really fearful of them. >> explain that. >> he was not a democrat. he came into congress as an independent and changed his -- he changed his party and they don't know his -- i heard from a very, very high ranking almost as high as you can get in that campaign who said we don't know and very fearful. >> you can't talk to the young and the old and the 60s people basically. >> right. but he's got these -- he's got this crowd that's coming out for him and he's actually,, they are saying he brought 80,000 new voters to -- >> i agree. do you buy that? she needs a translator, almost. >> i think if donald trump is the nominee, that will be a lot of motivation that will take the democrats. >> even the young people of the harder left, tougher left. >> the harder left people, where are they? in new york and california she wins without them. you have to look geographically in what states.

in virginia, ohio, florida? a lot of this stuff can be broken down. a lot of policy issues. >> how about your magazine? >> we don't endorse. >> how about nation? people like that? >> i think some -- the nation where i used to work always straddled the line between people that wanted to work within the democratic party and people that thought the democratic party was indeed corrupt and no point in that and those people wouldn't be for her anyway so the question is whether the other people, progressives that like bernie -- >> can you get enough -- >> i think in the end of the day if bernie wants to help hillary, he's not vengeful he can and how does he stop? he stops talking about it. >> i'm thinking about the last election where hillary clinton was running against barack obama and she talked about 3:00 a.m. would you be ready for the call at 3:00 a.m. and look where she is now. they had to come together. they did but i don't think there is as much as animosity in this

debate. >> there is not. let me tell you something, hillary clinton after california got out of that race and endorsed obama enthusiasmly and made no demands. she asked will you help retire our debt. she made no demands. >> you know what will help? trump will put bernie on her shoulders and throw bernie at her again and again and unite them. >> bernie guy. >> yeah. >> he will. he'll help her. david, thank you. april ryan. love this group. we got another hour on "hardball" coming up including live events with donald trump and ted cruz. cruz is late. a lot more reaction. the bombshell news of the day. the deal, this collusion for cruz and kasich. i love to say kasich and cruz because it drives the people crazy. you're watching "hardball" the place for politics. (war drums beating)

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good evening. i'm chris matthews in washington where the big news in the republican race is the new john kasich, ted cruz alliance to deny trump the nomination but questions whether it can last. in pack to pack strepress relea it was said the goal is to have an open convention according to row, our campaign will focus time and resources in indiana and in turn, clear the path for governor kasich to compete in oregon and new mexico. well, a few minutes later weaver wrote we're comfortable with our delegate position in indiana already and given the dynamics, we'll shift resources west and give cruz, the cruz campaign a clear path in inldiana. cruz insisted he wasn't telling supporter to vote for cruz, only that he would not campaign in indiana. so the voters have to figure this out. trump labeled t