despite losing five primaries, ted cruz stunned everybody by announcing his vice presidential candidate is carly fiorina. he loses five primaries and then announces, hey, fiorina is my vice president. this means fiorina is now just a

heartbeat away from never being president. of. of. of. of. >> welcome to "morning joe." on board with us this morning washington anchor for bbc world news america katty kay. council on foreign relations richard haass. good morning, richard. >> good morning. >> former campaign communications worker, msnbc -- i know you knew it. i know you knew it was carly and 4:00, rick tyler is with us. i guessed it. i could see it in his eyes. he flinched when i said is it carly. in washington managing editor of bloomberg politics and host of all do respect mark halperin. willie -- >> we've got the host of the spectacular, stup endous

sunday -- >> it's willie -- >> sexy sunday. >> steamy sunday mornings with willie geist. >> we'll be there again sunday morning bright and early, 9:00 in new york, 8:00 elsewhere. >> powerful. >> profiles of the parker guys. met in high school, had an idea why glasses cost as much. turns out they don't have to watch as much. you're wearing them? >> i was customer number three. passed out downtown, right? i look up my glasses are broken. some guys pull me in, right? >> that was your a ha moment. >> aha. >> willie stole all my cash.

i didn't have that much. >> that was a rough night. i'm sorry about that. >> that was rough. escalated very quickly. a happy ending. >> tell us a story, when you passed out in the street and something great happened. is that when you got your job at bbc. >> never happened. >> i have never got so drunk i've passed out in the street. >> all right, guys. we have three big stories. donald trump's foreign policy speech, bobby knight. >> that's a good one. >> carly fiorina. i can say candidate hillary clinton, bill clinton, they should be in their movie room eating popcorn and watching the show. she was off the trail. i would watch this and go what the hell is going on.

>> i want quick reactions first. poof. >> of course you do. you want to back into it. you want everybody to talk about it. >> you released a tweet i agreed with, after the speech you said, it's obvious if donald trump wins the nomination, we're going to have to be dealing basically with media that's just unhinged about donald trump on both the left and the right. the reaction of the speech yesterday, i was trying to get some sound, foreign policy reaction. i couldn't. it was hyperbole on both sides. tell us about your reaction. >> foreign policy unsettled. both parties, there's lots of debate. was this the most specific speech ever? there was not. flaws and contradictions?

yes. the reaction, left and right, lindsey graham, dan pfeiffer, former obama administration official both attacking it for the same reason. it shows trump will face something if he's the nominee that i don't remember any general candidate taking, fire from both sides and supposedly reporters who mocked it and didn't try to break it down in any serious way and basically just reflectively says if trump says it, it can't be with a serious thing. a problem for trump. >> the same story over and over again. they have done this from day one. they get a foreign policy speech. the first reaction is mocking and ridicule. richard haass, there was, though, a very definite foreign policy strand of thinking there that represents -- it's the jacksonian strain most closely

resembles jacksonian stream of how americans in the deep south felt about foreign policy for quite sometime. >> quite consistent with nationalist position, economic nationalist above all. consistent with views on trade, opposition to quote, unquote, free trade, opposition to immigration. very transactional approach with allies. essentially you pay up your fair share or we're not going to consider you an ally. again, as you would say, jacksonian. i thought intellectually the most interesting thing rejection of what you might call transformational going after 43 and barack obama and literally echoing the words of john quincy adams. america goes not abroad in search of monsters to destroy and donald trump had a riff off of that. united states is not going to run around the world trying to make the world our enemy. >> had he, in effect, if

everybody hadn't been mocking him so much, they would figure him out politically. this is how they missed the rise of donald trump. he positioned himself to the left. she's the neo-con and he's the one preaching restraint. >> it's ironic. 1992. 1992 george herbert walker bush is president. bill clinton runs for president. what does bill clinton do, he positions himself not to the left, not george mcgovern, michael dukakis but to the right of george bush on the use of force in serbia and bosnia, a bit of political jujitsu no one saw coming. what was inning about the speech in this case clint about to get out flying to the left. what donald trump was saying in some ways had echos of bernie sanders. what you have is a much more narrow vision of what the use of american force is abroad and

more broadly the balance between guns -- put aside world war ii and unfortunate echos there. essentially what you're saying a narrow use in the world, restrained use of military force. whereas one clinton flying establishment to the right, you have another clinton being outflanked to the left. this is an interesting political move. >> jacksonian. where you're isolationist, anti-interventionist at the very least. you're challenged by an enemy abroad. you go over, you destroy them, you wipe them out, you come back home. >> isn't that where the contradictions or the lack of policy specifics in the speech fell down? it's one thing to say we're going to go abroad and wipe out isis quickly. but if you don't have a plan for doing that, and he was pushed on the plan for doing that and doesn't come up with, what

you're saying doesn't mean very much. it's great to say we will go out and wipe out isis, it's a very hard thing to do. >> of course it is. a lot of paradoxes, a lot of conflicts. remember, ronald reagan elected 1980 on strength. he was asked what is your strategy toward the soviet union, an issue that had been vexing american politician since 1947. he said we win, they lose. that was it. it was in 1980 as hostages were being captured and held for 444 days, that's what americans -- >> as political messaging. >> that's what i'm talking about. i don't think anybody here would suggest we want to go back to jacksonian foreign policy. i'm just saying not like again donald trump came out of left field with this. he's once again with this speech tapped into the angst.

>> and barack obama for not sounding tough enough. >> let's take a look at what he said. donald trump focused on global affairs in this major speech in washington reading from a teleprompter he vowed to, quote, shake the rust off america's foreign policy, pledging to pursue what he called america first strategy as president. >> my foreign policy will always put the interests of the american people and american security above all else. has to be first. has to be. americans must know we are putting the american people first again. on trade. so true. on trade, on immigration, on foreign policy, the jobs, incomes and security of the american worker will always be my first priority. both our friends and our enemies put their countries above ours.

and we, while being fair to them, must start doing the same. i challenge anyone to explain the strategic foreign policy vision of obama/clinton. it has been a complete and total disaster. after secretary clinton's failed intervention in libya, islamic terrorist in benghazi took down or consulate and killed our ambassador and three brave americans. then instead of taking charge that night, hillary clinton decided to go home and sleep. incredible. >> there were some typical detractors to donald trump's foreign policy speech. republican senator lindsey graham tweeted his questions for trump, are we sure the guy running the teleprompter has the pages in the right order? question number two, did the teleprompter write the speech. #not making any sense.

there were also voices who saw clear substance in trump's remark. conservative grover norquist called the speech sober, thought through, written down. this speech, and the impression it gives, changed the tenor of the race. before the republicans, now drawing a contrast with hillary. former ambassador to united nations john bolton said the speech put trump in the mainstream of american foreign policy. >> that's surprise. three heads of the table turned that john bolton said that. former speaker newt gingrich and bob corker had more praise. >> to be honest, after the kind of campaign we've had over the last ump teen months that has been pretty painful to watch, i was very pleased with what i heard. i thought it was a great step in the right direction. i thought it was full of substance. i thought it laid out a vision

for america. i will say somewhat rhetorical myself this week, i saw a headline one of the major publications that you and i both read. the headlines were foreign leaders were afraid of donald trump. i have to tell you, rhetorically, it was kind of a pleasant surprise. if you think back during the reagan era, many of the people around the world that are friends are really scared of what he might do. >> he looked presidential. he looked serious. he looked controlled. overall i thought it was a good presentation. the speech itself is a very serious speech. you're going to find it ridiculed by washington establishment in part because it challenges so many of their assumptions. >> that was newt gingrich live from a bank elevator in washington, d.c.. >> strange. >> but interesting coming from newt. >> good to hear from him. >> bob corker also, chairman foreign affairs committee, willie. >> not to be taken lightly.

bob corker is a pretty serious guy. bob corker, you could say this is the party rallying around donald trump, see what's coming down the road and positioning for a position. but bob corker started saying message to the republican party, stop making fun of donald trump, stop trying to stop donald trump and listen to the people voting for him and supporting him. he's been out there earlier than most, i would say, on donald trump. that was a pretty strong endorsement of the chair of senate foreign relations. >> someone we respect. >> former politician from the deep south, what donald trump said yesterday is what you hear at town hall meetings all the time. i understand you're saying that. it sounds great but -- and then you explain. we need to be more engaged on this issue, on that issue. politicians like me have been saying that to people for 20, 25 years. at this point, no, don't tell us about why we have to do this for

china or that for saudi arabia. america first and that's the response he's getting. that's what bob corker is certainly hearing in his town hall meetings in tennessee. >> i think the speech yesterday from trump was a microcosm of his campaign. a great slogan about american strength. there weren't particulars but people who love and support him weren't looking for particulars. they want to be reminded he would put america first. if you're in the middle and don't like him, it was ridiculous. >> just like if you did not like ronald reagan in 1980 and you believed ronald reagan would start world war iii, which a lot believed, yes. >> i'm curious, not just frustration that barack obama has not sounded tough enough. oddly when you say this is a rejection of obama policies, obama has also been a president who has pulled america back from foreign engagement. this is quantifiably different

from george bush. over the last eight years we've seen america -- he's stepped up again a little bit in iraq and syria. it would be interesting to see what donald trump would advocate. >> he already said let's let the russians take care of syria. that's pulling back in a disturbing way. >> beat them fast, you're not going to beat them fast without doing something. >> trump was effective pointing out contradictions with the policy and historical weaknesses. the biggest in the eyes of most people not making good on the red line threat to syria and trump basically hammered away on the lack of reliability there and the iran agreement. basically saying we were too anxious for the agreement. you have to be willing to walk away if you're negotiating an agreement. there's a lot of people who think just that. >> he also said we have to be unpredictable. >> one of the areas of the speech -- a lot of this conversation reflects there were such tests here. there's a difference between foreign policy and political reaction. foreign policy people focusing

on inconsistencies. what you're also hearing are political reactions which are positive for the most part. >> did he say exactly on any level exactly what he would do? did he go deep into policy? was it a bit primitive, basic, to the gut? yes. i guess what i take away is what i see is republicans like corker, and you even heard paul ryan on our show say i can work with him. i think what some might have seen yesterday, this is just me watching the reaction, well, i could work with that. which is better than, whoa, that is frightening, wrong and that is not where we want to go. >> specific language to reaping out and working with china and russia. that's the kind of thing for people who work in the foreign policy world, there was enough language there that they would have the reaction they said. there was other language that would push them the other way.

>> i think donald trump, remarkable for a guy about to win the nomination is a work in progress. he's not tethered -- >> right before our eyes. >> willie, it's not like ron paul, if you are bob corker. >> you know what you're going to get. >> more frightened of paul's policy of the united states than donald trump because you feel like, hey, i can talk to this guy, i can explain. he's flexible. >> they probably think they can shape him a little bit when he gets to washington, you can't shape ron paul. as close as you get to the speech. the last line is a serious contradictory speech. >> no moment south korea should think of developing nukes, japan should think of developing

nukes. there were no red alarms in the speech. it was constrained. >> hillary clinton strong on this. >> i will go back to strong thinking here and richard can double down on this. there are a growing number of people, and i said it for 20 years. every time barney frank comes on the air we both agree wit, which is germany and china -- germany and japan, they can take care of their own foreign policy. it's not 1945 anymore. why are we carrying two of the most powerful economies in the world on our backs. we're sick and tired of it. taxpayers here shouldn't do it. let them tart worrying. >> two things. one, if both of them provide a lot of host nation support -- two, the reason we do what we do not for germany and japan, it's for the united states. this works for us. >> i'm explaining again when donald trump starts talking that way, there are a lot of people

across the nation nodding. that's when when everybody is so busy mocking the speech, without figuring out how it's being received in america, which we saw yesterday, then same reason why they couldn't figure out why all the people showed up. but bobby knight, willie geist, bobby knight showed up yesterday. he showed up yesterday in a red sweater. how did that go? >> you'll find out in the next block. >> what? now. it's horrible. >> if carly fiorina and ted cruz and donald trump with ted knight. >> singing. >> singing was great. >> still on "morning joe." second half of ted cruz presidential ticket, his running mate carly fiorina joins the conversation. plus jane sanders on the decision to lay off hundreds of campaign staffers across the country. senator tom cotton who is being blasted by the white house for trying to block part of the

nuclear deal with iran. >> keep fighting, tom. not at some point, tom. never. never. >> nbc's hallie jackson joins us from the campaign trail on indiana. a live report from that battleground state is straight ahead. tonight joe is playing his band, prohibition, 8:30. if you're in the area, come on by. she can join you. you're watching "morning joe." be right back. what brand of makeup is better for your skin than wearing no makeup at all? neutrogena® cosmetics. with vitamins and antioxidants. now with foundations in shades for more skin tones.

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i am not here to represent the republican party, and i'm not here to represent any organization that deals with politics. i think the most important thing in the world that we vote for the best man there is for this job and you've already met him. they said harry truman wasn't presidential. damn, he went on to be one of the three best presidents in

united states history. and he will at some point be one of those also. >> lyin' ted. right, lyin'. the guy has gone one after another after another. of course last night he called the rim a ring, so he doesn't know too much about the basketball world. i can't watch him for long periods. we will this. the flourish. ay yi yi, i get such a headache watching this guy. >> bobby knight. >> we were saying it looked like an oil painting. beautiful lighting. >> the hair. >> still frightening. he's still a tough man. >> on an emotional level we all have great respect for carly fiori fiorina, on emotional level you put bobby knight up on the podium in that state, it's a win. >> that's your secretary of

defense. >> right there, exactly. you say quickly then bobby knight you are saying trump speech politically astute even if it wasn't consistent, very astute politically. >> there's a mood in this country after iraq and afghanistan, several million americans served at one time or another. there's fatigue, intervention fatigue. what the speech does is tap into intervention fatigue. the sense united states has been overextended in the world. we try to do too much. we've got to pay more attention to the home front. he's capturing that mood. >> how do you square that with did he troy isis, that will require intervention. >> isis or groups like it will be with us for some time to come because it reflects this sort of disease or virus in this part of the world. i see that as receipt hetoricale you can't come up to do that.

>> can you explain to people who are casual viewers just how big bobby knight is in indiana? >> it's he or larry byrd the biggest in indiana. he's a larger than life figure. throwing the chair, we saw that. he was a father figure to all the kids that played there. he was a god. your basketball in indiana is church and he was the pastor of the church for 20 years. >> i love that headline, trump calls bob knight endorsement greatest ever in indiana. >> huge. >> if he does say so himself. all right. so after taking a big hit in the delegate race tuesday ted cruz looked to change-up his campaign by throwing what "usa today"s is

calling hail carly. campaign putting up a new sign on the podium in between their remarks yesterday and fiorina stepped right into the role taking aim at donald trump. >> this is the fight for the soul of our party and the future of our nation. people all across this nation know that donald trump and hillary clinton both will be disastrous for this nation. donald trump and hillary clinton are two sides of the same coin. they are both liberal, we know that. hillary clinton has made her millions selling access and influence from inside the system. and donald trump has made his billions buying people like hillary clinton. they are not going to challenge the system that's sold us down the river. they are not going to challenge the elites. they are not going to challenge the system.

they are the system. >> today i'm in the plane and i see on television they have a new relationship has started, cruz and carly. he's mathematically eliminated. he has set a record, though. he is the first presidential candidate in the history of this country whose mathematically eliminated from becoming president who chose a vice presidential candidate, okay. >> an historic choice mark halperin. let's talk strategy and then get rick tyler who knows a thing or two about the cruz campaign. what was the idea here behind choosing carly fiorina, a, and doing it at this point in the campaign. >> looking to get momentum in this critical stage. cruz with a chance on second or third ballot he's got to win indiana. this creates aura of forward

process, it highlights trump's problems with women and it gives cruz a chance to cover more ground. he can campaign with her some of the time. they can split up other times. this is the side show. this is not the main event. the main event, can cruz win indiana. to the tent this helps with that is correct it's a good step. it's not going to really change fundamental dynamic of the race. >> the cruz campaign, mark, knew they were going to have a brutal few days after tuesday's results. tuesday's results were disastrous. was this as much about blunting of what in the past, recent past as it was looking forward to indiana, just changing the subject the fact that ted cruz got completely wiped out on tuesday night, came in third place in a lot of states and didn't win a single county in several states. >> it's certainly part of the timing of this. i think the bigger thing is the forward-looking attempt to create the optics of saying this

is the anti-trump wing of the party. fiorina has become as loud and vibrant a voice the anti-trump wing of the party as anyone he picked. would he rather have had marco rubio? maybe. this is someone who can get on television, can campaign pretty effectively and be part of trying to hold together what is starting to fall apart, which is anti-trump, stop trump movement. rick scott governor of florida came out yesterday and said every dollar spent on anti-trump movement is a dollar for hillary clinton. fiorina is part of trying to hold together the balance of power in the party that says we've still got to stop trump where rick spot is saying we've got to coalesce around trump. >> let's bring in rick tyler. did your head fall into your hands when he made this choice or can you finish the sentence, this is a great move because -- without lying.

>> that's a great start. >> it's 6:30 in the morning. that was hard. >> there's a reason i'm asking. >> she has a reason for this insulting question. >> no, i truly want an honest answer. >> of course a lot of speculation why this was done, the timing of it. campaigns try to replace dominant stories that don't work in their favor. tuesday night was a dominant story not working in cruz's favor. i think picking carly fiorina replaced that. some people talk about it as being desperate. doing nothing is done, doing something is smart. >> that's not an answer. >> i thought that was a brilliant answer. thank you so much. >> did your head fall into your hands and you start shaking your head and say why or did you think this was a great move because -- and fill in the blank. >> i think it's a great move

because carly fiorina is a great communicator. she can speak on the level of business that donald trump was to control. she's also done something that cruz and trump and kasich have not done, and that is to win a california primary. she can win over evangelicals, a large amount in indiana. also we found out yesterday she can sing and ted cruz cannot. >> i like her a lot. we've gotten to know her. i'm not sure about this. i'm doing to ask her coming up of she's on today. >> yes. i thought rick's answer was great. >> he jumped an -- >> mika was a little tough. >> wasn't very honest. let's bring in -- >> you're still mad about yesterday. you think he did know before. >> >> he did not. >> no, he didn't. look at that face. >> a high level position in the campaign and has no friends there -- >> time to bring in news correspondent hallie jackson,

live in indianapolis. you spoke with carly fiorina last night. what did she tell you about joining the ticket. >> we talked about a couple of things, guys. is this a move of desperation? was this born out of timing because of the walloping ted cruz got tuesday night, now looking to change the subject. why so early? her response is this is an unprecedented campaign. the fact it was early shouldn't be that much of a surprise. ted cruz himself said during the speech they are doing what he has to do. he wants to put fiorina out there. you heard him when he introduced her, every at tribute he said about fiorina was a double edged sword, a way to hit donald trump, a way to push stop trump ticket mark and rick are talking about. she has won a california primary. she dropped out of her own race in the republican primary earlier this year. ted cruz still trails in the delegate count. i pose the question to her. how is it one person that has been unable to beat donald trump

added to another person who hasn't been able to beat donald trump yet -- does one plus one equal three basically. she said, listen, we are working to try to keep donald trump below 1237. she said he cannot get there was her response. you look at this ticket, the timing of it, how long it's been in the works. i'm told by a campaign aide a couple weeks ago they were getting very serious about rolling her out. originally the campaign started looking at a vice presidential pick back after iowa. they were looking at 42 people. that was narrowed down to 17 folks that were vetted on the sort of short list and five people that were deep vetted i'm told. the campaign tight-lipped about names, saying usual suspects. this is somebody they have been thinking about for a while. the timing of it yesterday, clearly seemed to be a way to change the subject after that tuesday night loss. >> nbc's hallie jackson. thank you very much.

rick tyler, thank you as well. >> rick, you were awesome, man. you're best. >> i didn't know. hallie vouched for me. i talked to her all day. she was trying to find out, i was trying to find out. >> a straight shooter. >> this is not that much -- okay. it hasn't happened since whatever it is, '76 with reagan, but there are five days left for ted cruz. he has to get as much media attention as he can. >> it was a good move. >> donald trump has come out of those primaries where he's won. donald trump giving a major foreign policy speech. what are we all doing right now at 20 past whatever it is? 6:36. >> look. >> talking about carly fiorina. >> america's newspaper, "usa today." a graphic, 75% of the people who read this makes up like three-fourths of the people who

read it. a great pie chart. this is america's newspaper and it's on the very top. guess what, media cycle one. >> guess what, yesterday ted cruz in introducing carly fiorina as all the networks took the speech gave a 30-minute stump speech. he took that, gobbled up yesterday. the question is specifically if this is about indiana, what does carly fiorina do for him in indiana? what does she do for him there? >> i think the question is different. does carly fiorina not do something for him. otherwise, is there any negative to this in i'm not sure there is. between now and indiana? >> i don't think there's any negative whatsoever. >> why not do it. >> also got him on front pages in indiana when bobby knight was there. he can sit back and keep taking punches in the face or you can move and try to shape your full. he moved and tried to shape his

future. again, instead of bobby knight here and stories of him getting absolutely slaughtered tuesday night, that's two people smiling with american flags behind him. >> same thing. >> same thing with the "washington post." >> okay. carly fiorina will join us at the top of the next hour. we have a lot of questions for her. look forward to talking to her again. "morning joe" back in a moment. how about that right now ♪ i know two girls i just adore i'm so happy i can see them more ♪ ♪ because we travel on the bus all day we get to play we get to play ♪ i won't bore you with any more of the song but they have four verses.

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. still ahead on "morning joe," what's the reaction overseas to foreign policy speech. >> it is clear what the intent of his amendment is. senator cotton is no expert when it comes to heavy water. i'm confident he couldn't differentiate heavy water from sparkling water. his focus on undermining this agreement that prevents iran from obtaining a nuclear weapon. >> ouch. i think that was maybe stinging. >> and at the wrong guy. >> senator tom cotton holding up

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that's just how we roll. neutrogena®. see what's possible. and then there's isis. i have a simple message for them. their days are numbered. i won't tell them where, and i won't tell them how. we must, as a nation, be more unpredictable. we're totally predictable. we tell everything. we're sending troops, we tell them. we're sending something else, we have a news conference. we have to be unpredictable and we have to be unpredictable starting now. >> donald trump and his foreign policy speech yesterday. joining us now nbc news chief global correspondent bill nealy on the set with us. >> let's start with you, bill, on the trump speech.

do you hear echoes of what donald trump is saying as nationalism? do you hear echoes of that not only britain but across america right now. >> politics, they are sweeping elections in western europe. i think across europe, across the world, they will be reading this speech because they have to. you might have taken trump's candidacy with amusement six months ago, now they have to take him seriously. no government has come out and made an official reaction but one commentator in the ua said it was an ominous combination of ignorance and arrogance. in russia, putin will see that as an opportunity, surely, a trump presidency. what does putin want to do? he wants to divide europe. he wants to destroy nato. there are many elements of trump's speech they will be rubbing their hands in moscow with glee. some things that struck in

europe, we should be fair to donald trump when he talked about obama's red line on chemical weapons in syria, when he talked about european partners not paying their fair share to be members of nato, yeah, a lot would say he has a point. but the rest of it was a strategic speech or rag bag of slogans and wishful thinking. a lot of people in london, paris, berlin would say -- >> see it that way. >> i remember covering obama's speech when he was candidate in berlin, when hundreds of thousands of europeans were there listening with open minds. what a difference. >> how did that work out for him? >> well, no. >> some would say he could have stayed in germany for the betterment of u.s. policy. >> stop. it was a very good speech. >> but that phrase america first

must have had ominous tones to people in europe, the idea of american withdrawal from the world. >> the western world desperately wants america to be engaged, to show leadership. we want certainty from america. donald trump promised exactly the opposite. he promised unpredictability. people are worried. you could dismiss the trump candidacy six months ago as they did in whitehall and other places with nose in the air and amusement. they are not doing it any more. >> let's bring in republican senator tom cotton of arkansas. tom, always great to talk to you. what was your reaction to this speech by trump yesterday. >> to be honest the work in the senate trying to stop administration from subsidizing awn's nuclear program i didn't have a chance to read or watch mr. trump's speech. he can clearly speak for himself but right now he can't stop

administration from subsidizing iran's program. that's what i'm trying to do. >> kind of had your hands full. how was the first birthday importantly? >> it was great. my wife made homemade cake and we served it to him. not fond of it as we thought he might be. he's not used to eating sweets yet. >> always a messy first birthday. you may not have watched donald trump's speech, the white house -- >> they said you don't know the difference between seltzer and tap. >> heavy water and sparkling. >> i think that might have been an insult. >> respond to the white house's criticisms of you. >> the white house may think it's a laughing matter to subsidize iran's nuclear program but i don't. heavy water is not radioactive, not dangerous in normal quantities but it is an essential part of any nuclear program like iran's. iran is required to reduce its heavy water stocks under nuclear deal that president obama signed with them last year.

however, we are not obligated to take that heavy water. we certainly aren't obligated to provide taxpayer dollars for iran's program for that heavy water. i offered a simple amendment to the budget that said u.s. taxpayer would not subsidize any more bills like this. unfortunately democrats blocked that amendment and bill from going forward, even though we have a large majority in favor of my proposal. >> why have they? >> i don't think many of them want to go on the record as opposing support -- opposing their president on this policy but on the record of having u.s. taxpayer dollars subsidizing iran's nuclear program. again, i offered 60 vote threshold even though i'm entitled to majority vote. i think i have a veto proof majority. that's why they don't want to have a vote on the amendment because they know the policy is indefensible and would rather plok the bill. >> senator, it's willie geist. is there another way to go about this. this is a poison pill, a bill

that would clear easily and this came up at the last second. do you see any other avenue you can do this without holding up appropriations process. >> we're talking to democrat. they suggest a stand alone bill, something i would consider. willie, this is not a poison pill. on capitol hill, a poison pill is a term people use when they say this is a popular policy i oppose and i don't have the votes to stop. i didn't do this at the last minute. administration at the last minute on friday night dropped the news they were giving $9 million to iran's nuclear program. i filed the amendment on monday, the very first day back in session after the administration's last-minute news dump saturday night. >> tom cotton, thank you very much for being with us. congratulations on gabriel's first birthday. >> thanks, joe. thanks, mika. the iran deal still is causing republicans and great deal of democrats consternation. what do you think about the back and forth between the white

house and senator cotton? >> actually i think it's a side show. you're talking about less than $10 million to potential sales of heavy water. we want iranians to get rid of it anyhow. there's issues with iran beyond the agreement. let me suggest. one is obviously what it is they are doing outside the agreement in the area of ballistic missile development, which gives us real heartburn. then over the next 15 years, how are we going to prevent countries in the region -- >> richard haass, let me ask you something. >> do you have a phone? >> is your wife calling you? do you have at&t. >> i don't see anything on my phone. i know it sounds bad but you can't blame me. >> bill neely. >> do you use at&t? >> no, i don't, joe. >> at&t does that. >> i'm going to talk to bill neely while you put your microphone back on. bill, obviously it's not just

the united states, people in britain looking at the united states, united states, especially barack obama very concerned about the direction of where the united kingdom is going right now. give us an update. >> europe is in a bad place for all sorts of reasons. if britain should vote to leave the european union, it will have a ripple effect. the dutch, danes, swedes do look to britain as leader of northern europe. so there will be a ripple effect. you've got migrants, rise of extreme right wing politics. you've got greek debt crisis. europe is in a mess. what britain decides in june won't be important for britain on an important step but important for europe. i think the stay campaign is gaining back some of the grind. i think that worries six weeks ago that the leave campaign was really gaining ground, led by the mayor of london boris

johnson, very charismatic. he said some things that people aren't too happy about. i think they are losing ground. >> what was the reaction to barack obama saying the brit would go to the back of the queue if you left. >> barack obama came and said, hey, i'm not going to intervene in the british debate and he did just that. we all knew he was going to do it and knew exactly what he was going to say. did he exaggerate saying to the back of the queue, behind montenegro in the setting with the u.s., no. but he made a significant intervention. you got all the political parties in britain all major business leaders, president of the united states saying, for goodness sakes, stay. i think it's having an effect. >> bill thank you so much. richard haass, thank you for being with us. would you like to finish your sentence. >> glad the president weighed in, that was the right thing to do. iran, much bigger fish to fry than heavy water.

we want to see iran stop ballistic missile development and want to make sure neighbors don't get into nuclear business themselves. that's going to be a real challenge for the next president. >> richard, thank you. steve, stay with us. we'll be right back. very intuitive. i can draw lightly, just like i would with a real pencil. i've been a forensic artist for over 30 years. i do the composite sketches which are the bad guy sketches. you need good resolution, powerful processor because the computer has to start thinking as fast as my brain does. i do this because i want my artwork to help people. (neighbor) yeah, so we're just bringing your son home. (dad) ah! greetings, neighbor. neighbor boy. he really loves our wireless directv receiver. (dad) he should know better. we're settlers. we settle for cable. but let us repay you for your troubles. fresh milk for the journey home?

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uh, no thanks. i have x1 from xfinity so... don't fall for directv. xfinity lets you download your shows from anywhere. i used to like that song. i think ted cruz's tactics were wrong. there's no honor in charging a

hill you can't take, although ted cruz got name recognition and money along the way. >> i would say ted cruz is just like any other politician, he says one thing in manhattan, he says another in iowa, he says whatever he needs to say to get elected and then he's going to do what he pleases. i think american people are tired of the political class that promises much and delivers much of the same. >> i find it odd that senator ted cruz did not renounce his dual canadian citizenship until 2014 when it became clear he was running for president. there are both legal scholars and others who think this is perhaps a legitimate issue. i think both donald trump and ted cruz are far too divisive as candidates to ever beat hillary clinton. i also don't think you can win when you have someone like senator cruz who says one thing in the drawing rooms of manhattan and another thing in the living rooms of iowa. >> were you wrong in january

when you were that critical of senator cruz? >> yeah. that's why i voted for him in the voting booth before i ever had a conversation with him about endorsing him. >> you see, that's why i don't say things that can be videotap videotaped. what have i told you. if it's up here, if you see a red light on, that's right, don't say it. >> rein it in. >> what did i say, willie, less is more. right? right? >> talk less, smile more. >> god gave you two ears and one mouth for a reason. listen more. >> welcome back to "morning joe." it's thursday april 28th. >> that was uncomfortable. >> with us we have former mccain senior strategist steve schmidt. >> how are you, steve. >> great. how are you? >> good. you're a political guru.

i was just saying, i thought this selection of carly was pretty genius yesterday. ted cruz had a horrible night wednesday night. he changes the narrative for the next two, three days by making this decision. look at that. you have two smiling faces, american flags leading the news. >> steve pointed out we were talking about this earlier in the greenroom. his back is to the goal line. he doesn't have a lot of options left. you can say all day long on television trump isn't on track to get to 1237 to be nominated on first ballot. he is. that will become more clear if he wins in indiana. ted cruz is running out of runway. he needs to shake it up. he needs to i think do some things to get the last bit of attention and focus on him, get reconsideration from republican voters who are breaking clearly in donald trump's direction all over the country and every region of the country. it's not a bad set of strategy,

tactics. >> i think it's good tactic. >> steve ratner with us washington anchor for bbc world news america katty kay. bloomberg politics mark halperin, former governor of vermont and chairman of the national committee howard dean. let's get started. a big win of donald trump, pennsylvania's unbound republican delegates identified their choices yesterday. nbc news found that of the 54, 35 are going for trump on the first convention ballot. two for ted cruz. eight uncommitmented. this puts trump nine votes short of 1,000 delegates and ted cruz more than 400 votes behind. trump has won 51% of the delegates awarded so far. the billionaire went into tuesday needing 57% of the remaining delegates. he now needs 49%. cruz is adamant he will not get there. >> nobody is getting to 1237

delegates. the hoosier state is going to have a powerful voice in making that clear. >> mark halperin, most people could disagree, at least over the last two days with ted cruz's assessment that there's no way donald trump is getting to 1237. what has to happen, though? what does cruz have to do in indiana and states beyond that to stop donald trump from getting the nomination and throwing open the convention process. >> he's got to get inner play between momentum and delegate going his direction. if he wins indiana he's all in there, on television, radio, bobby knight, if he can beat there, he's got to beat the remaining contests this month and then we go to california. trump can't get over the top

until the final day of voting in california and new jersey, the othertates that vote that day. cruz has to have the race be fundamentally different by then. the odds are totally stacked against him. not just because of how well trump did in pennsylvania and other states on tuesday but because he's still, even with the collection of feern ark, he's still not change the dynamics of the race. trump's momentum and broad support in the electorate. >> if you look at california, 172, 173 delegates, let's just give trump 150. a 20-point lead in the state right now. you look at winner take all new jersey, that would put trump at 1200 before we factor in the results of indiana or any of the other states left to go. so the margin to stop trump from getting 1237 is becoming extremely thin bordering on the implausible. >> jersey is winner take all. how many delegates? >> it's around 50. >> the point is indiana comes before jersey.

if trump wins indiana next tuesday, the math becomes almost impossible. >> okay. all right. with us now from indianapolis, former republican presidential candidate and now running mate to senator ted cruz, carly fiorina. carly, always great to talk to you. tell us how this all -- >> good morning. >> tell us how this all came abo about. >> i voted for ted, i don't know, about nine weeks ago when the virginia primary occurred, before i had a conversation with him about endorsing him, then we spent the last seven weeks together. not every day but certainly a lot. i've gotten to know him and his family and we stood together side by side and fought for what we think is important for this country and frankly for our party. obviously his team has been going through a vetting process and we began to have serious conversations about this over the past week or so. i think ted cruz wants to be sure that the people of indiana

and the people of this nation understand the choice in front of them. on the one hand you have cruz and fiorina. on the other hand you have trump and hillary clinton. i put them in the same category was they are the same category, two sides of the same coin. i think this is a fight for the soul of our party and the future of our nation. i'm not afraid of tough fights, i've been in them most of my life. but i do think for some of us principles matter and convictions matter and policies and principles matter. >> right. so carly is this support for ted cruz, i'm not talking about what happened yesterday but your decision to vote for him nine weeks ago, was that more about what you saw in ted cruz as a leader or what you feared a trump presidency would look like. >> i ran for president because, as you guys know, you had me on the show many times, i think we actually need a real conservative in the white house. it's only a conservative who understands the problem is too

much power concentrated in the hands of too few people, some of whom sadly are republicans. i also thought we needed a fighter, someone who has and will fight that system. when i looked at the long list of names, ted cruz is the only guy who is a conservative and who is a fighter. yes, i happen to believe donald trump is terrible for our party and terrible for our nation. and he would lose in a landslide in november. as i said, the week he announced his candidacy, way back in june of 2015, he doesn't represent me and he doesn't represent my party. i've got a lot of heart for this fight. >> so i was looking at your speech, really trying to think about this throughout the evening yesterday and figure out why i'm not completely sold on this particular, carly, and i like you very much. you just mentioned ted cruz as a fighter. i think some would say that the national sentiment is that the middle class has been screwed and that nothing gets done in washington.

when you talk about nothing getting done in washington, a lot of people look at ted cruz, shutting down the government, creating enemies everywhere in washington. a large chunk of your speech, which i have here, is about fighting and about the value of making enemies. you even say that you make enemies. it's the price of leadership, the price that one too many people aren't willing to pay, so they don't lead. ted cruz has maidde enemies takg on political class. i'm wondering since there's so much negativity in the speech, is that a talent you want to boast for yourself and your candidate? >> you know, mika, there was a lot of positive in that speech, too, about what's at stake and how this must be a nation once again where every american, regardless of their circumstances, feels the possibilities that come from their god-given gifts and their

potential. listen, i'm a conservative, so i actually think getting things done in washington is not always the point. you know, obama care got done. it's a disaster. there are some things that go on in washington that need to be fought, need to be repealed, need to get undone of that's why i'm a conservative. that's why i think ted cruz -- >> that's what we've had, a lot of people fighting and a lot of enemies being made and a lot of things getting fought instead of getting done. isn't that what we've had? >> yeah, well, you know, you and i don't have the same political views, mika, i think that's fair to say, although i really like you, too, and frank says hello. legislative accomplishment is part of the problem actually. the federal government shouldn't be running health care. so here is the thing. 80% of americans, 80% now know

the federal government is incompetent and corrupt. and 80% of americans also think we have a professional political class of both parties who cares more about position and power and privilege than getting anything done. what i want to make sure people understand is donald trump didn't going to fight that system, he is that system. he's made his billions buying people like hillary clinton off. he freely admits it. he has spent his life taking advantage of that system and so has hillary clinton. so if you think that system isn't working for you, and it isn't working for the vast majority of americans as you point out, don't vote for donald trump and don't vote for hillary clinton as well. now you have a clear choice. can you vote cruz/fiorina or donald trump and hillary clinton. they are two sides of the same coin. >> great to have you back on the show. welcome back to the game. let me ask you about something ted cruz said yesterday, which is nobody is going to get to

1237, although it does look like donald trump has a way to get there. let's take that premise that he doesn't get there but arrives at the convention with something close to that, 1150, 1200, something like that. what could you reasonably say to the millions and millions of votes in all the states donald trump won over this primary season to convince him he should not be the nominee but ted cruz who had many fewer votes should be? >> well, first of all i'll remind you the number 1237 exists because it represents the majority of the delegates in the republican party. secondly, as in many games, football being one of them, you know, the 5 yard line isn't a touchdown, it's just close. so 1150 or 1200 is close but it's not a touchdown. so i think what you talk about that in that contested convention. by the way, there's nothing untoward or unsavory about a contested convention, we just haven't had one in a long time.

maybe donald trump has just figured it out, but, wow, this system has been in place for a really long time. we're a republic, actually, not a democracy. what i would say to people is, it's republicans job -- with all respect he wins in open primaries and loses in closed primaries. i think what we need in november is a very clear choice. donald trump is way too similar to hillary clinton for me and for a whole bunch of republicans. and here is something else. what's clearly been demonstrated over the course of this election is actually the majority of republicans don't want donald trump as their nominee. so it's also clear from the polling data that donald trump gets shellacked by hillary clinton. if you want hillary clinton as a president, donald trump is the guy to vote for. >> in fairness he won 60% in a few states. >> carly fiorina, say hi to frank. thank you. >> carly fiorina, thank you for being with us. congratulations. good luck out there.

>> have a great day. >> all right. let's talk about trump's foreign policy right now. mika, a day after claiming flexibility on foreign missouri policy, donald trump focused in on global affairs. >> yesterday, he did. he used a teleprompter. reading from the prompter he vowed to shake the rust off america's foreign policy pledging to pursue what he called an america first strategy as president. >> my foreign policy will always put the interests of american people and american security above all else. has to be first. has to be. americans must know that we're putting the american people first again. on trade -- so true. on trade, on immigration, on foreign policy, the jobs, incomes and security of the american worker will always be

my first priority. both our friends and our enemies put their countries above ours. and we, while being fair to them, must start doing the same. >> there were some typical detractors to donald trump's foreign policy speech. republican senator lindsey graham tweeted his questions for trump are, are we sure the guy running the teleprompter has the pages in the right order. question number two, did the teleprompter guy actually write the speech? #not making any sense. there were also voices that saw clear substance in trump's remarks. conservative grover norquist called it sober, thought through, written down. the speech and the imimpression it gives changed the tenor of the race. before he was beating other republicans, now he's drawing a contrast with hillary. former u.s. ambassador to the u.n. john bolton said the speech put trump in the mainstream of republican foreign policy. that's what he needed to accomplish, and that's what he

did. newt gingrich tweeted washington mock trump for mispronouncing tanzania. they don't get it. he said the most important word correctly, america. he gets it. listen to senator bob corker, chair of senate relations committee. >> to be honest after the kind of campaign we've had over the last ump teen months that has been painful to watch. i was pleased with what i heard. i thought it was a great step in the right direction. i thought it was full of substance. i thought it laid out a vision for america. i will say, somewhat rhetorical myself this week, i saw a headline in one of the major publications that you and i both read. the headlines were foreign leaders were afraid of donald trump. i have to tell you rhetorically, it was kind of a pleasant surprise. if you think back during the reagan era, many of the people around the world that are friends were really scared of

what he might do. >> steve schmidt, you could not go online, couldn't go on twitter without seeing donald trump ripped to shreds from every direction, the left, the right, the center. obviously richard haass, bob corker, newt gingrich, several others actually saw something in that speech they said showed a beginning of development of a foreign policy. what did you think of it politically? >> politically it's a challenge to the status quo. one thing that's clear, when lou at america's national security and our foreign policy, it's lack of global strategy. the disaster, as donald trump called it, over the last eight years and the eight years before that in the eyes of many, many americans, donald trump is promising to shake up that status quo. politically that doesn't put him in a bad position. he's beginning to outline some coherence around the sound bites with regard to the policies, for

example, he talks about nato, talks about the american taxpayer subsidizing most of the nato countries, only four out of the 28, meeting the 2% of gdp minimum spending on defense, raising these things as an issue, which are not inappropriate issues and certainly not extreme issues to be raising. so i think politically donald trump is showing that he has the ability ep to be a more traditional candidate. he can be sober, reflective, coherent and beginning to articulate significant policy. >> a win. mark halperin yesterday seemed to be a microcosm of the entire campaign. just had richard haass as he was leaving, it's impossible to have a conversation about anything donald trump does because trying to have a thoughtful discussion about his speech yesterday, now being savaged in e-mails and twitter is a sell out to donald

trump. that's again how donald trump's critics have responded, underestimated him and got blind-sided. seems like happening again in his speech. >> he's going to have to win people over. he accomplished three things, one is helping to unify the republican party. not lindsey graham but john bolton saying he put himself in the mainstream. that's helpful for him. he needs republicans to have that. two, started to lay out a critique, not his own plan but critique of foreign policy. that's going to not only unify republicans but independents and democrats that don't believe foreign policy run as good as it could have over the last seven years. finally, to some extent trump's election if he's going to be the nominee come down to can he keep from being eliminated. can he do what reagan did towards the end of the campaign

in '80 and be acceptable as commander in chief. i thought the tone and presentation yesterday for all the flaws in the speech, again, put something of a down payment down on that, which is going to be a battle for him the entire way through the election if he's the nominee. >> richard haass said he tried to place himself to the left of hillary clinton. what's your take? >> i don't want to be terribly unkind but i think he read a teleprompter speech he couldn't understand. if you could get him in an interview about this and have richard and others who actually know foreign policy pretty damn well ask him questions, i doubt very much he could answer very many questions. i do agree this is an attempt -- >> what part specifically because a lot of that echoed what he's been saying on the campaign trail? what part of the speech did you

think donald trump was too ignorant to understand? >> look, you can't gunl that from the speech. based on what he said in the past, build a wall in mexico, that has a hell of a lot bigger effect than a speech written by people who knew something about foreign policy for teleprompter. >> every politician does that. we've been slamming donald trump for not reading from a teleprompter. >> i agree. >> slammed him for months for not reaching out to policy advisers who could help him build out foreign policy. now it seems when he does that, i'm not just talking about you, but apec as well. people that mocked him for rambling on then mock him for reading from a teleprompter. >> i'm not mocking him for reading from a teleprompter. i just don't think he understands the substance he's reading. how can sit and alienate the country on our border who we

need to be a stable country, what difference does it make what you read on a teleprompter if that's what your position on immigration is. >> i agree with steve. i think as a political matter it will work for him. his tone is very consistent with what the american people are thinking at the moment. they want us to pull back. they want us to spend less. secondly, i think in terms of the fear of becoming reagan-like or being perceived as hawkish, a neo-isolationist speech. >> it was. >> the idea he's got his finger on the button is not what came across. >> steve, that's interesting. a lot of people, a lot of good, e earnest people say, trump, there are a lot of things i like about him but do we really want this guy with his finger on the button. i say to them, i say actually your bigger concern should be he's a neo-isolationist who wants to turn syria over to russia. it's not that he's going to be a madman with nuclear weapons. >> right. but my third point is that i

think as people drill into the specifics, as he has to explain some of them, things like turning syria over to russia, some might say what about all those rebels, are they going to get massacred, a good point about syria, howard makes a good point about mexico. politically popular but economically not well advised. as you dig into specifics it's going to get more complicated but i think he did do a good job laying out fairly benign policy. >> katty kay, if donald trump made the speech a couple months ago you would see more giggling and eye rolling but the fact he's closing in on becoming nominee has people like bob corker, john bolton, serious people in the republican party in the country coming out and rallying behind him and say, look, he's going to be our nominee. let's figure out how to work with him. >> one of the interesting thing at this phase, at what point

that republicans previously criticized donald trump actually get on board with him. we saw that yesterday. we're seeing the shift, republicans say this is the guy that's going to be the nominee. we're going to rally around him. in terms of the speech, there were no red alert sentences that could be picked up where people can look at it a bit like david sanger in "new york times," oh, my god he's saying japan and south korea should have access to nuclear weapons. no clangors on foreign policy. what there wasn't, what's important are implementation. it's very easy to say we're going to go and defeat isis quickly, unless you lay out the policy for doing that, it's a fairly hollow policy recommendation. that's a very difficult, complicated issue that would take american intervention on the scale of 10 to 15,000 troops. there was none of that. not the second level of what that policy means. >> he said on "morning joe," he did not say it yesterday, that he would put at least 10,000

troops in to fight isis. it is, following up on what katty said, lou at the republican establishment figures that didn't come out, grover norquist, who has been at the center of the republican fight over the past quarter century, newt gingrich, john bolton, corker, that is politically the step in the direction the trump people have wanted to go for a month. >> i think that's right. >> i think that's right. from a political point of view, this speech was a good idea. what it does is what we would call in the psychology trade reduction of cognitive dissidence. i think katty is exactly right this. allows republicans who see the handwriting on the wall to find a reason to support donald trump. that is absolutely true. from that point i agree with steve, it was very politically astute. >> i guess we have to remember

the speech was not for us and it wasn't for his critics and foreign policy thinkers, it was for votes. i think he did -- >> he did what he needed to do, the average front voter. >> howard dean, stay with us if you can. still ahead on "morning joe," bernie sanders set to lay off 200 campaign staff but says he's still fighting for nomination and still taking not so subtle digs at his primary opponent. >> my good friend donald tru trump -- just kidding, not my good friend. i, myself and my wife, didn't get invited to his wedding. can you believe that? some people did, but we didn't. all right. >> it's getting so bad, not only do they lay off workers, the light bill. >> the lights. >> they did not pay the light

bill. sort of dark shadows. >> campaign adviser jane sanders joins us live. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. ♪jake reese, "day to feel alive"♪ ♪jake reese, "day to feel alive"♪ ♪jake reese, "day to feel alive"♪ a branch catches me here.our. you think that stopped me? i was about to be the first 3rd grader to jump the cook county creek. jump 50 feet over the rapids and i crash land. mom patched me up.

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you know, the amazing thing is that basketball ring here in indiana is the same height as it is in new york city and every other place in new york city. >> throw a basketball into. >> what now? >> what do you throw a basketball into. >> a hoop. >> what do you throw a basketball into? >> a hoop. >> what do you throw a basketball ball into. >> a hoop. >> what do you throw a basketball ball into. >> what do you throw a basketball ball into? a hoop. >> hoop. >> basketball hoop. >> a hoop. >> a hoop. >> what do you throw a basketball into? >> a basket. >> a hoop. >> what do you throw a basketball into? >> a hoop. >> what would you call this? >> a hoop. >> would you ever call that a ring? >> no. >> thanks.

>> that's it? >> i like her. no. no, i wouldn't. >> joining us now -- >> nobody would do that, especially if you're trying to suck up to voters. >> if you're speaking -- might call it a ring of fire. >> no gene hackman. >> former award winning journalist, grew up in bloomington, indiana, former home of legendary bobby knight also with us. washington, national correspondent from bloom percent business week, the one, the only josh green. josh, i hope you told your mother you're on. >> shoot, i forgot. >> pick up the mother and call her. >> his mother mean tweets him. >> they are overseas. they are in england. do they have "morning joe" in england. >> oh, my god, we're huge in england. >> massive. massive. we can't even get through

picadilly, straight out of an austin powers movie. explain the impact of the bobby knight endorsement for anybody or anything. >> all right. so bobby knight in indiana is a god. outside the state people look at him as this sort of grumpy, intimidating, chair throwing, crazy, berserk guy. in indiana he's known for national championships, undefeated seasons, using intimidation to make sure the program is a good one. also making sure his kids go to class and graduate. they love bobby knight in a way people outside the state can't appreciate. >> this is big. >> when you combine bobby knight and his sense of discipline and law and order, which reflects very well with republicans in indiana, you combine that endorsement with the differences trump articulate with cruz over trade, nafta trade deals have hollowed out a lot of indiana jobs, you can say in the last 24

hours, i don't think indiana will be close. >> less take a look at bobby knight endorsing donald trump. >> let me say another thing about mr. trump. i think we're a little alike in that regard. if we're involved in something where we want to win, particularly something that's necessary, if there's something out there where we need to win, we're going to try and beat your ass every time we can. >> you know, there's another element of bob knight that makes it a perfect fight, not surprising he would support donald trump in that state, he harkens back to the make america great era where there was no political correctness, you could say what's on your mind, discipline a kid the way you want to discipline, sometimes it gets you fired in bob knight's case. that's why i think that match of the 2011 them, the absolute absence of political correctness is appealing to make people in indiana. >> it's especially appealing across the midwest when you think who are the big role

models for people in the midwest, particularly when it comes to sports, bo knight, people in indiana crude in some ways, very forceful but a lot of men particularly look back and thi think, their discipline, success overshadows politically incorrect things they would say. >> bill bryant, an endorsement there, it would end the campaign right there. -of- feeling, again, you can't overstate the importance of bobby knight's norm. >> josh green, how does indiana look then? does this make a huge difference? >> i think it makes a difference on the margin. you've already got donald trump leading most public polls, from what i hear internal polls. there isn't a lot of evidence that this cruz, kasich alliance is paying dividends for ted cruz. the fiorina announcement was made out of desperation and looks that way.

there's no real reason to believe she brings a constituency that will help cruz in indiana. sure, having a beloved favorite son like bobby knight endorse you publicly in the state you're running i think is a big help. >> yeah. steve schmidt, if trump wins indiana -- >> is it over? >> it is over. it becomes impossible to see how he doesn't reach 1237 delegates necessary to be nominated on the first ballot. you look ahead to california, new jersey, where he has commanding leads, not to mention the other states in between, but this is the last chance for ted cruz to do well, to stop him, have any momentum in the race or his argument falls completely apart. importantly if he doesn't win indiana, it will show his early pick of carly fiorina was a one-difficult publicity stunt and had no down range value. >> mark halperin, same thing. if he wins indiana, is it over? >> yeah.

i suspect we'll see lots of additional map up dates that will show just how hard it would be to stop him from majority. i also think after indiana, because the cruz campaign is building it up, you're going to see a lot of people endorse trump. he's not had very many. a lot of people argue it's time to coalesce around trump and not continue to hurt him. >> are you saying this before or after. >> after. >> after. >> i don't think you'll see much before. i think you'll see a lot of people at the republican national committee and around the committee start to get impatient and say, hey, hillary clinton starting to raise money for the democratic election, democratic party we need joint fundraising operations. we need trump to start thinking about a general. it won't ab seismic shift but in terms of the delegate numbers and political support after indiana if trump wins will be major significant change in direction. >> howard dean, i never was a big believer of endorsement. i always told people who wanted my endorsement, that's great, i'll shake your hand, smile,

it's not going to help. 75, 80% approval rating among republicans, but they usually don't help. i think bobby knight might be a one off on that category. >> i agree. it is the the same as bear brian endorsing somebody, he did more for indiana than anybody so far. most don't make a difference, this one does. i was madly trying top google the word "hoop" in canadian, maybe it's ring. jersey sho josh green, if you're going to quote "hoosiers" do it right. >> talking to the former economic adviser who used to play basketball with cruz at princeton. the idea cruz can't say basketball hoop is just strange. >> that is strange. >> okay. >> david shuster, final thoughts on indiana and donald trump. >> big news, bobby knight gives

the donald trump endorsement and ted cruz with carly fiorina, the trump campaign made it abundantly clear that carly fiorina is associated with outsourcing. again, by making sure in the same news cycle people hearing a beloved favorite coach is endorsing donald trump. by the way, ted cruz is picking up an endorsement as somebody known in her business acumen for outsourcing jobs. fair or notah lot of jobs have been lost in indiana and people have too many concerns in indiana. the economy and basketball. donald trump went 2-0 yesterday. >> david shuster, good to see you. >> come back, david. >> like a big fight once in a bar. >> we never had a bar fight. >> 15 years ago. >> was it like in a bar or coffee shop? >> what are you talking about? >> i thought chairs were turning over. >> that was bobby knight throwing chairs. >> i remember it. >> i remember a lot of hugs. >> a lot of hugs. >> maybe someone else. josh green, mark halperin and

howard dean, thank you very much. >> thank you, guys. we greatly appreciate it. >> coming up jane sanders joins us with their campaign, need big wins, we'll talk about that. president obama said debt decreased 2/3 since taking office and wonders why he doesn't get more credit. the conversation with the president. >> billions. discover card. customer service! ma'am. this isn't a computer... wait. you're real?

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. >> there was one. up next after a string of tough election losses on tuesday, bernie sanders is still having fun on the campaign trail. >> look at that. >> this is nbc's chris jansing. >> a lot of motion, a little action. bernie going to the. >> the hoop. >> look at chris, aggressive. i like it. all right. his wife and campaign adviser jane sanders joins us on "morning joe." with hyaluronic acid it plumps skin cells with intense hydration and locks it in. for supple, hydrated skin. hydro boost. from neutrogena

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has dozens of optional researchers. they don't need my speeches to talk about hillary clinton. things like the clinton foundation or things like the e-mail situation, i don't talk about that. i have never talked about it one word on this campaign. i suspect very much that donald trump and the republican party will go after her in many, many ways we have not. >> all right. so that was senator bernie sanders speaking with nbc's chris jansing. yesterday brought a bit of a grim headline, the campaign would be letting go dozens of staffers. the campaign says they will get rid of 225 people while keeping about 300 on, particularly in california, indiana, and kentucky. and they say it's because they no longer need many of their national and state level staff, particularly in primaries already completed. >> burlington, vermont, wife of democratic candidate bernie sanders, president of burlington college in vermont. jane, we love talking to you. your husband's campaign has been

an inspiring campaign from the start. what can you tell bernie sanders supporters about this news and also about the campaign. are you guys still in it to win it or are you just in it to make a point? >> no, absolutely in it to win it. you remember in mid march after a string of losses, the media wrote his political obituary and we came back to win eight in a row. so we're expecting to do the same here. it was a difficult time. we knew that new york had 3 million independents that couldn't vote in the closed primary and they would have had to change their party registration back in october last year. four out of the five contests that were just done last tuesday were closed primaries again. the open primary, rhode island, we won. connecticut we came very close. if it had been an open primary,

we have no doubt we would have won. pennsylvania, we would have come close or won. so we're feeling good. most of the primaries going forward are open, which i think is much more democratic. it's also a smarter move for the democratic party because if you close the primary and only have people that have been in the democratic party for years, what you are doing is effectively shutting the door on the millions of people that bernie has brought into the political process during this election. so we're going to go forward. >> so there is a lot of discussion about whether or not bernie sanders, candidate sanders, should be talking at all about hillary clinton. that at this point he ought to stick to issues without naming her name. any type of pointed attack is damaging to the party as a whole. donald trump even saying that he might use some of sanders material against hillary clinton. to that what do you say? >> well, as bernie said, they

have good opposition researchers and they have a lot more that they will use than a simple statement that bernie will have said. he's in an election. he's in a contest. he has to draw contrasts between them. so he will say i'm for $15 minimum wage, secretary clinton is for $12 minimum wage. i'm very firmly against fracking and concerned about climate change, secretary clinton has really supported fracking. as secretary of state very effectively. there are a lot of differences between them. it's not saying -- it's not an attack, it's not personal. we're talking about different views. that's what we need to do in a democracy. we need to offer a clear choice. these two candidates offer very different visions for the future. we need to make them clear.

support for minority voters, latino, where hillary clinton has dominated. how do you change that narrative and trend in a place like california where he'll certainly need that? how do you explain that? >> i think if he was running against anybody but hillary clinton, who was the noibted one most well-known person in the world, she has a good relationship with the african-american community that goes back decades. that hurts us, helps her. we are making inroads especially

among those under 45. we're winning across race racs.s we've been picking up all along. we're going to keep on doing that. it's basically getting out in front of them, talking with ab that affect them. and that his general fold vision for the future actually affects them disproportionately because, as you say, a lot of them have lower incomes, they are concerned about the cost of higher education, and a number of the issues that bernie puts out there. >> jane sanders, thank you very much for being on this show. we are see you again soon, we hope. >> thanks so much, jane. greatly appreciate it. let me ask you, steve rattner, as a supporter of hillary clinton, are you concerned about

the bernie attacks or is this sort of business as usual in a campaign and lit be -- >> she made a really good point. this being a democracy, they are different. >> i agree, actually. i think the attacks have been mostly on substance, fracking, on issues where they disagree. i think sanders has a point of view to express. >> a lot of democrats agree with. >> obviously minority of democrats but a lot of democrats agree with that i think is a responsible point of view and should be part of the dialogue. he has said on her worst day hillary clinton would be one thousand times better than any of the republicans. i do think he will be supportive of her when the time comes. we can deeight -- you see the party coming together. >> i see the party coming together. there's not going to be a huge chism. i think the millennials will come out to vote. >> that's tough. back in a moment with much more "morning joe." by the way, tonight, joe and his band are playing here in new york city. >> oh, my god, willie, this will

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history of indiana. hoosiers legend bobby knight. >> he was right about this one. >> it might be true. plus, the republican front-runners american first foreign policy plan? richard haass from the council on foreign relations breaks it all down. and can ted cruz and karly fir written that do together what they could not do separately? stop donald trump. we'll play for you part of our interview with cruz's new running mate, ahead on "morning joe."

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♪ good morning. it is thursday, april 28th. we have a lot going on today. welcome to "morning joe." onboard with us this morning washington anchor for bbc world news america katty kay. the president of the council on foreign relations richard haass. hello, richard. >> good morning. >> former ted cruz calm xan communications director and now msnbc political -- you know i knew you knew it. i knew you knew it and it was 4:00. rick tyler is with us. i guessed it. i could see it in his eyes. he flirchled. and in washington managing editor of bloomberg politics and co-host and with all due respect that airs at 6:00 p.m. on msnbc, mark halperin. we have three big stories. donald trump's foreign policy speech, bobby knight. >> that's a good one. >> carly fiorina. i can just say that candidate hillary clinton and bill clinton, former president -- they should be in their movie

room just eating popcorn, watching this show. >> this will be great. >> i think she was sort of off the trail yesterday. i would just watch all this going down. what the hell is going on? >> so i want you to get us into all of this. i want quick reactions though first. >> of course you do. >> poof. >> you want back into it. >> poof. >> you want everybody to talk about it before they know exactly what happened. >> mark halperin, yesterday you had an interesting tweet which, of course, i agreed with, where after the speech yesterday you said it is obvious that if donald trump wins the nomination we are going to have to be dealing with basically media that's just unhinged about donald trump when both the left and on the right. and reaction to the speech yesterday, i was trying to get some sound, foreign policy reax to it. i couldn't. it was all high per wholy on both sides. that's why we brought in richard haass to tell us the way it is. but tell me about your reaction. >> i mean, look, foreign policy

is very unsettled. with any -- both parties there's lots of debate. was this the most specific speech ever? it was not. were there flaws in it and contradictions? yes. but the reaction to it shows the left and the right, lindsey graham and dan pfeiffer, former obama administration official, both attacks it for largely the same reasons. it shows that trump is going to face something if he's the nominee that i don't remember any general election candidate taking, which ask fire from both sides and fire from supposedly objective reporters who mocked it and didn't try to break it down in any serious way. basically just reflectively says if trump says it it can't be a serious thing. a problem for trump. >> are we telling the same story over and over again. and they've done this from day one. and they get a foreign policy speech and the first reaction is mocking and ridicule. richard haass, there was though a very definite foreign policy strand of thinking there that

represents -- it's the jacks jacksonian strain most -- closely resembles the jacksonian strain of how americans, especially in the deep south, from felt about foreign policy for a long time. >> it's quite consistent with the nationalist position, economic nationalism above all. he was very consistent with his views on trade, his opposition to quote, unquote, free trade, opposition to immigration. very transactional approach with allies. essentially you pay off your fair share or we're not going to consider you an ally. again,ed a you would say, jacksonian. i thought sbek elect actuintell most interesting thing was going after george w. bush 43 as well as barack obama and essentially saying, echoing, literally echoing the words of john quincy adams. america goes not abroad in search of monsters to destroy

and donald trump has a riff off of that that the united states is not going to run around the world trying to make the world in our image. >> h e, in effect yesterday, an if everybody hadn't been mocking him so much they would have figured this out politically, of course, this is how they missed the entire rise of donald trump. he effectively positioned himself to the left of hillary clinton. she is going to be the neocon in this race. and he is going to be the one preaching restraint in foreign policy entanglements. >> let's look at what he said the donald trump to us canned on global affairs in this major speech in washington. reading from a tell promptered, pledging to pursue what he called america first strategy as president. >> my foreign policy will always put the interests of the american people and american security above all else. has to be first. has to be.

americans must know that we are putting the american people first again on trade. so true. on trade, on immigration, on foreign policy, the jobs, incomes, and security of the american worker will always be my first priority. both our friends and our enemies put their countries above ours. and we, while being fair to them, must start doing the same. i challenge anyone to explain the strategic foreign policy vision of obama/clinton. it has been a complete and total disaster. after secretary clinton's failed intervention in libya, islamic terrorists in benghazi took down our consulate and killed our ambassador and three brave americans. then, instead of taking charge

that night, hillary clinton decided to go home and sleep. incredible. >> there were some typical detractors to donald trump's foreign policy speech. republican senator lindsey graham tweeted his questions for trump. are we sure the guy running the tell prompter has the pages in the right order question number two. did the teleprompter guy actually write the speech in #not #notmakinganysense. conservative groifer norquist called the speech sober, thought through, written down. this speech and the impression it gives changed the tenor of the race. before he was beating other republicans, now he is drawing a contrast with hillary. former u.s. ambassador to the united nations john bolton said this speech put trump in the mainstream of republican foreign policy. >> okay, that is a surprise. let's keep going. three heads at the table turned. when we saw john bolton said

that. okay. >> former house speaker newt gingrich and senator bob corker had more praise. >> to be honest, after the kind of campaign we've had over the last umpteen months that have been pretty painful to watch, i was very pleased with what i heard. i thought it was a great step in the right direction. i thought it was full of substance. i thought it laid out a vision for america. i will say, somewhat rhetorical myself, this week i saw a headline of one of the major publications that you and i both read. the headlines were, foreign leaders were afraid of donald trump. i have to tell you, a rhetorically, it was kind of a pleasant surprise. and aif you think back in the reagan era many of the people around the world that our friends were really scared of what he might do. >> he'll looked presidential. he looked serious. he looked controlled. and overall, i thought it was a good presentation.

the speech itself was a very serious speech. i think you're going to find it ridicule kuled by some of the washington establishment in part because it challenges so many of their assumptions. >> that was of course newt gingrich live from a bank elevator in washington, d.c. >> strange. >> but interesting, coming from newt. >> good to hear from him. >> bob corker, also. chairman foreign affairs committee, willie. >> he's not to be taken lightly. bob corker is a serious guy. bob corker you could say this is the party rallying around donald trump and seeing what's coming down the road and accepting what's ahead and maybe positions for a position. but bob corker a couple months ago started saying, message to the republican party, stop making fun of donald trump. stop trying to stop donald trump and listen to the people who are voting for him and supporting him. he's been out there earlier than most, i would say on donald trump. that was a pretty strong endorsement from the chair of the senate foreign relations. >> someone we respect a great

deal. >> former politician from the deep south. what donald trump said yesterday is what you hear in town hall meetings all the time. and a lot of -- i understand you're saying that. it sounds great. but, and then you explain well, maybe we need to be more engaged on this issue or we need to be more engaged on that issue. and politicians like me have been saying that to people for 20, 25 years. and at this point, no, no, don't tell us about why we have to do this for china or that for saudi arabia. america first. and that's the response he's getting. that's what bob corker certainly is hearing in his town hall meetings in tennessee. still ahead in "morning joe," there is bear bryant in alabama, john wooden in california, and bobby knight in indiana. yesterday the legendary hoosiers basketball coach endorsed donald trump. and how democrats might go after karly fiorina in the general election if she and ted

cruz get that far. but first, here's bill karins. >> bill karins before he was bill karins. >> no. i'm not sure about that. >> remember that weird phase, willie, where he demanded that we call him -- mika, maybe you remember? the meteorologist formerly known as bill karins? i remember that as a tribute this week. >> there was a time he wanted to call us instead of bill karins, kerry, i didn't get it. he's back. >> i remember that one. >> he had this weird symbol, i don't know what it was. >> a man or a woman. >> dressed in purple and it was just sort of like, i don't know, is it rain, shine. >> that must have been a key west trip. >> oh, you guys. truce is over i see. let's talk about what happened yesterday. and let's show you the pictures. we thought there was a chance of a few tornadoes. we ended up with 19 rorpts of tornadoes. one of the big ones was in iowa. it was in a wide open field. that's where we like them. didn't really do much in the way

of damage but it was significant and you can see how large it was. thankfully this one was a miss. and that's what we want. in all,ed a we go throughout the day, 19 reports of tornadoes yesterday. also had some flooding. indianapolis had a lot of storms that trained over the region. the soil has been saturated. we have seen the reports of flash flooding in driving through that stuff. also not the best either. so let's take you into the weather maps. rain this morning through indianapolis. dried it out a little bit. a gloomy day across the nation's capital. washington, d.c. will see on and off rain throughout the day today. highs in the 50s. compare that to the warm weather lately. down right chilly. as we go through the afternoon, watch out the areas of north carolinand as we go into texas. this severe weather threat is for this afternoon, this evening near raleigh. this area near dallas, texas, oklahoma city, late tonight through the overnight hours. that will be a threat of large hail. not too many tornadoes today. the southeast, you're warm and scattered storms. northern half of the country raw as we end april. that's going to stay that way.

our poor friends in denver, you're going to be in the 40s with on and off snow over the next couple of days. april can sometimes be the cruelest month. new york city, rain coming your way tonight and a little bit more on sunday. a nice saturday over the weekend. more of "morning joe" when we come back. i am benedict arnold, the infamous traitor. and i know a thing or two about trading. so i trade with e*trade, where true traders trade on a trademarked trade platform that has all the... get off the computer traitor! i won't. (cannon sound)

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i am not here to represent the republican party and i am not here to represent any organization that deals with politics. i think the most important thing in the world is that we vote for the best man there is for this job. and you've already met him. they said harry truman wasn't presidential, and, damn, he went on to to be one of the three

best presidents in united states history. and he will at some point be one of those, also. >> bobby knight, man. robert montgomery knight. >> we were saying it looked like an oil painting, the lighting in there. >> beautiful lighting. >> the hair. >> still frightening. >> still a toughman. >> on on emotional level we have a great deal of respect for karly fiorina but on an emotional level you put bobby knight on that podium in the state of indiana, that's a win. >> that's a win. >> that's your secretary of defense. >> yeah, right there. exactly. you said, really quickly, and then we're going to go to bobby knight, you said that trump's speech politicallys a stult even if it wasn't consistent. very astute politically. >> well, again, i think there's a mood in this country after iraq and afghanistan, several million americans served at one time or another. there's fatigue, intervention

fatigue in this country. i think what trump's speech yesterday does is tap into this sort of intervention fatigue. the sense the united states has been over extended in the world, tried too much. got to pay more attention to the home front. and i think he is capturing that mood. >> how do you scaquare that wit i'm going to destroy isis? >> it would require intervention. you can talk about the strained isis. isis or groups like it will be with us for some time to come because it reflects the sort of disease or virus in the part of the world. so that that's rhetorical because you can't come up with a policy that in any way would do that, particularly not on the cheap. >> bobby knight, how big -- can you explain to people that are casual viewers just how big bobby knight is in indiana? >> he or larry bird is probably the biggest figure in the state of indiana. he hasn't been there for a while. he went and coached texas tech. hasn't lived there for a while. historically won a couple of

national championships as a head coach at indiana university but more than that he was a larger l than life figure, throwing the chair, but a father figure in the state of indiana. he was a god. your basketball in indiana is church. and he was the pastor of the church church for how many years, to years. >> i love that headline. trump calls bob knight endorsement greatest ever in indiana. >> yes. yes. >> huge. >> if he does say so himself. >> all right. so after taking a big hit in the delegate rate on an tuesday ted cruz throwing what "usa today" is calling a hale carly in indianapolis. carly fiorina as his chosen vice presidential candidate. putting up a new sign on the podium in between their remarks yesterday and fiorina stepped right into the role taking aim at donald trump. >> this is a fight for the soul of our party and the future of our nation. people all across this nation

know that donald trump and hillary clinton both will be disastrous for this nation. donald trump and hillary clinton, they are two sides of the same coin. they're both liberal. we know that. hillary clinton has made her millions selling access and influence from inside the system. and donald trump has made his billions buying people like hillary clinton. they are not going to challenge the system that has sold us all down the river. they're not going to challenge the elites. they're not going to challenge the system. they are the system. >> today i'm in the plane and i see on television they have a new relationship has started, cruz and carly. >> he's matt maltmathematically

eliminated me set a record though. he is the first presidential candidate in the history of this country whose mathematically eliminated from becoming president, who chose a vice presidential candidate. okay? >> historic choice. mark, let's talk strategy and then we'll get rick tyler on this. what was the idea here behind choosing carly fiorina, a, and doing it at this point in the campaign, b. >> well, looking to get some momentum in this critical final days before indiana. cruz has to go one step at a time if he has a chance to be a nominee. he's got to win indiana. this creates the aura of forward progress, someone to go out and help campaign, highlights trump's problems with women, and it gives cruz a chance to cover more ground. he can campaign with her some of the time, they can split up other times. this is a sideshow. this is not the main event. the main event is can cruz win indiana. to this extent it helps with

that, it's a good step but it's not going to really change the fundamental dynamics of the race in any way. >> the cruz campaign knew they were going to have a brutal few days after tuesday's results, tuesday's results were disastrous. is this as much about blunting what was in the past, recent past, as it was looking forward to indiana, just changing the subject to the fact that ted cruz got completely wiped out on tuesday night. came in third place in a lot of states. and didn't win a single county in several states. >> it's certainly part of the timing of this but i think the bigger thing is the forward looking attempt to create the optics of saying this ask the anti-trump wing of the party. fiorina has become as loud and vibrant a voice, the anti-trump wing of the party, as anybody who cruz could have picked. would he rather have had marco rubio, maybe. but this is someone who can get on television, can campaign prettyt effectively and can try

to hold together that what is starting to fall aspart whichpa. every dollar spent on the anti-trump m movement is a dollar for hillary clinton. fiorina is trying to hold together the balance of the party of the power, where scott is saying let's coalesce around trump. >> let's bring in rick tyler. so did your head fall into your hands when you made this choice or can you finish the sentence. this is a great move because -- without lying. >> wow. >> that's a great start. >> there's a reason i'm asking. >> okay. she has a reason for this insulting question. >> i'm very, very -- no, i truly want an honest answer. >> here we go. >> a lot of speculation of why this is done and the timing of it. campaigns try to replace dominant stories that don't work

in their favor. tuesday night was a dominant story not working in cruz's favor. i think picking carly fiorina replaced that. some people say they talk about this being desperate but, look, doing nothing is dumb. and so doing something is smart. >> that's not an answer. >> good answer. >> to this choice -- >> brilliant answer, rick. >> did your head fall into yourds hands and did you start shaking your head saying, why, or did you say to yourself, this is a great move, dot, dot, dot, and can you fill in the blank? >> i think it's a good move because carly fiorina is a competent person shp he's a brat communicator. she can speak on a level of business that donald trump seems to want to dominate and control. she's also done something that cruz and trump and kasich have not done, and that is to win a california primary. >> right. >> she can win over evangelicals large amount in indiana, and we found out yesterday she can sing

and ted cruz cannot. >> and earlier we spoke to carly fiorina right here on "morning joe." >> a large chunk of your speech, which i have here is about fighting and about the value of making enemies. you even say that you make enemies. it's the price of leadership. the price that one too many people aren't willing to pay. and so they don't lead. ted cruz has maiden mys by taking on the political class. i'm just wondering, just because there's so much negativity in this speech, is that really a talent that you want to boast for yourself and your candidate? >> well, you know, mika, there was a lot of positive in that speech, too, about what's at stake and how this must be a nation once again where every american, regardless of their circumstances, feels the possibilities that come from their god-given gifts and their potenti potential. listen, i'm a conservative.

so i actually think getting things done in washington is not always the point. you know, obamacare got done. it's a disaster. there are some things that go on in washington that need to be fought, need to be repealed, need to get undone. and that's why i'm a conservative. >> that's what we've had. >> that's why i think ted cruz -- i'm sorry? >> that's what we've had, a lot of people fighting and a lot of enemies being made and a lot of things getting fought instead of getting done. isn't that what we've had? >> yeah, well, well, you know, you and i don't have the same political views, mika. i think that's fair to say although i really like you, too, and frank says hello. legislative accomplishment is part of the problem actually. the federal government shouldn't be running health care. so here's the thing. 80% of americans, 80% now know the federal government is incompetent and corrupt.

and 80% of americans also think we have a professional political class of both parties who cares more about their position and power and privilege than on getting anything done. what i want to make sure people understand is that donald trump isn't going to fight that system. he is that system. he's made his billions buying people like hillary clinton off. he freely admits it. he has spent his life taking advantage of that system. and so has hillary clinton. so, if you think that system isn't working for you and it isn't working, for the vast majority of americans as you point out, then don't vote for donald trump and don't vote for hillary clinton as well. >> coming up on "morning joe," as we go into the general election president obama would like you to ask yourself, are you better off now than you were eight years ago? just ahead, the president expresses his frustration to cnbc's andrew ross sorkin how

people perceive -- >> he's misunderstood. if the rest of america was just as smart as the president. he's so misunderstood. wrely on the us postal service? because when they ship with us, their business becomes our business. that's why we make more e-commerce deliveries to homes than anyone else in the country.

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at red nose day and global citizen. making it our most rewarding day ever... hands down. welcome back to "morning joe." join the conversation, author and "new york times" columnist, author and columnist of the daily news and msnbc contributor, political

strategist steve schmidt and on capitol hill "new york times" reporter jeremy peters. good to have you all onboard. >> the important thing, hair wars. >> what? >> hair wars. you win again. >> i don't know. i don't know. >> you win again. >> i don't know. >> i don't know how you do that but i'm jealous. >> you and i were the subject of a gossip column. >> i heard that. >> about that. >> i heard this. >> i chose to ignore it. >> was it mean? >> no, it was fun. >> if hair is a good thing, it was positive. >> all right. so -- >> foreign policy speech, you've written a lot about trump. you haven't been condescending. you've been throughout the year or so, just had a sort of a cold calculated eye on the impact of his policies. tell me, what was your take on the foreign policy speech yesterday? >> i think there was an inbuilt disdense in it that he wants to make america great but i don't think he understands how much of that greatness has been purchased through an intense engagement in the world,

patrolling sea lanes, doing trade deals, building -- >> so who does he reflect perfectly? the american people who want to make america great again but don't want -- >> try to build a hotel. >> but they don't -- i'm saying as far as foreign policy goes, they want to make america great again. that it don't want to invest though in foreign aid, they don't want to invest in foreign wars. they don't want to do any more of what they've seen over the past 10, 15 years. >> attempted leader he owes them an explanation of whether the greatness he promises is actually possible in a world in which america doesn't underwrite the global commons in the way it has since world war ii. >> you know, mike lupica, i have learned posts since 2010 that we can't just come home. like iraq has taught me barack obama's speedy withdrawal from iraq and the rise of isis, his inaction in syriaing actually, has actually moved me a great deal towards understanding that,

yes, sometimes you have to put 30,000 troops in south korea. sometimes that's the price of peace and it sucks being the indispensable power in the world. but dpguess what, that's what w are and that's what we need to be. >> i'm watching the speech yesterday. m thinking if you're a democrat and watching this speech in all ways now, the threat level is now orange. okay? and they have to identify the fact no candidate in history has ever spent more time talking to us than donald trump has. nobody has been more available than he has, but he's not talking to us. he wasn't talking to us yesterday. he wasn't talking to political elites. he was talking to people who scream at his rallies. that's who -- and you know what? they love that speech. >> they love the speech. mika, somebody tagged in archie bunker billionaire. >> yeah. >> some time back. he was a guy in queens last night that was channeling what people in queens say, what people in el mira, new york,

say, what participate in pensacola, florida, say, what people in meridian, mississippi, say. >> can you get elected president, can you get elected president speaking to that audience? >> he's saying yes, yes, he can. right, steve schmidt? >> sure, he can. look, we talk about the liberal order in the world created by the united states and the post-world war ii era. where this country lost 400,000 killed in action. that generation is dying off. we lose more of them every day. so that moment in time where democrats and republicans in the congress who serve together in combat in that war understood each other's political opponent, not each other's enemies, that they had faced a common enemy, they had looked into if darkness, they had seen the evil of fascism. it was by no means a certainty that we would have won that war. and so that common experience, that threat, the notion that the

default position of the world isn't one where we are at peace, that what's been an aberration is the post-war era where we have largely been at peace. we've had wars in vietnam and korea and in the middle east but nothing like the global conflict we saw in the '40s. as that slips from living memory we forget what has made this world what it is today and it is the united states garn or of the liberal order and fades from the argument, it becomes -- it becomes incumbent on politicians to be able to explain that to the american people. >> rise in america first philosophy. >> if you go to other country, our debate about our foreign action is we invade things all the time the. the united states does thousands of little things around the world all the time. training farmers on pesticide, subsidizing roads in africa. the pet farm aids program.

nothing which goes into debates but creates a world in which we actually want to live. >> he's not saying he wants to blow that up. >> well, i think if he wants to question nato, question alliances, pull back from the world, i think it was an honest conversation about not just invasions we're talking about. we're talking about an entire set of tent acles into the word >> jeremy peter, let's look at this politically. you've been following the story of the unbound delegates in pennsylvania. which some have gone trump's way. >> yes, some have. we did an analysis of the unbound delegates who, of course, by law are not bound to follow anybody, vote for anybody at the convention, found that 40 of them in pennsylvania, 40 of the 54 are aligned with trump either fully or marginally. only three for ted cruz in the whole state of pennsylvania. so far. now of course the trick is, if trump doesn't get to 1237, and i think that, you know, if 4th he

blows it out in indian narks it's over. but if you -- it's a real possibility. you get to a scenario where you have cruz and trump with trump getting maybe 1200 delegates or something and then in that case he's going to have to go and woo a lot of unbound and a lot of them are saying, you know, no way, because these are old republican party stallworths, everything from the ladies who answer the phone at republican party county headquarters to your state ledge lagislators an county commissioners. >> and then ted cruz choosing carly fiorina. >> what are you laughing about, mike lupica? that seems awfully rude. >> somebody that is never going to be president now steps up and is never going to be vice president. it's just one more weird -- this alliance is like the game's over and you're saying here's what play i want to run when i get the ball back and you want to say, but you're not going to get the ball back, you're not going to be vice president of the

united states any more than you were going to be president of the united states. >> carly was mitt before mitt was mitt? >> that is something that mark mailman, barbara boxer po erbox center said. carly f carly fiorina was mitt romney before mitt romney was mitt romney with you know who made the ads, jim margolis, the same guy doing hillary clinton's ads this year. if they were to make it to a general election, i mean, it's a hart case to make. as one republican strategist said to me very senior guy, he said, you know what, ted cruz and carly fiorina do is they have the unique ability to make hillary clinton seem likable. >> do you do this in the beginning of the campaign? do we see people trying this four years from now at the beginning of the campaign? why wouldn't you? >> trying to pick their vice presidential candidate? >> here's the deal. i want to be your president.

i'm going to tell you right now as i start my campaign, this is who i want my vice president to be. and we're going to campaign across the country. >> traditional models of how you run for president, i can raise the most pac money, super pac, it's all out the window. it's all over. the most important skill is how's the candidate going to perform in the debates. what are their communication skills, what are their ability to command the media's attention, to say provocative things, to operate in the post-television advertising digital age and that's what's going to matter. so all the old rules, all the old conventions are out the door. >> jeremy peters, thank you. mike lupica and annan stay with us. still ahead on "morning joe." >> my legacy is finally beginning to take shape. economy is getting better. today thanks to obamacare you no longer have to worry about losing your insurance if you lose your job. you're welcome, senate democrats.

>> ahead of his final white house correspondence dinner, president obama is bristling over the perception of his economic legacy. he sat down with krb's andrew ross sorkin and he joins us next. the pursuit of healthier. it begins from the second we're born. because, healthier doesn't happen all by itself. it needs to be earned every day. using wellness to keep away illness. and believing a single life can be made better by millions of others. as a health services and innovation company optum powers modern healthcare by connecting every part of it. so while the world keeps searching for healthier we're here to make healthier happen. they sato make a sunscreenle... you can apply to wet skin. a wrinkle cream that works in one week. and a shampoo that washes away the residue hair care products caleave behind.

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nnlt people would never take a hit like that. >> dwrond participate -- >> you got me, rose. 1.9 billion. it's going to hurt. not a shark bite. more like a, what, bee sting. >> bee sting? no, that hurts. >> more like a horse fly. one of those little agree horse flows? >> yeah. nasty nip. >> more like a green ant. >> stings for minute but doesn't

ruin the picnic. >> stings for a minute but doesn't -- >> andrew ross sorkin, coanchor of "squawk box," financial columnist for the "new york times." >> i'm here to talk about obama. >> he's gotten old. he used to come here. go with the flow. >> i'm here to talk about obama. >> a minute. >> interview with obama. >> he's tight. i am sorry, nobody told me that we're going to talk about billions. we talking about it on the show all the time. >> i know you do. i heard you talk about it all the times. and you're friends with the cocreator and show runners who are responsible for the magic that you love. >> cop myment in levine, sounds like a personal injury law firm. >> it does. >> they're awesome. >> it's great. and we have lots -- we have -- joe and i have questions. xwl we do have questions. >> it want to hear about obama. >> don't worry, we're going to talk about your president. >> he's your president, too. >> presidential interview, mr. hot shot. you can't even talk about one of the best shows on tv. >> happy to.

happy to. >> next time. >> so the president obviously a little thin skinned when it comes to the economy. >> this is your piece in the "new york times." >> a piece coming out in the sunday "new york times." it comes out, i think it just hit the internet today. >> not as big as billions. >> great job. >> lengthy piece that tries to get inside his head about how he has seen the economy over the past eight years. >> what do you think the biggest misperception about his economy is? >> so right now given -- look, we all talk about the election and how angry everybody is and how everybody -- how angry everybody is about the economy. how angry they are about wall street. i think to me the most -- two things. one is, clearly, having been on your show back in 2008 people don't think in relative terms. they don't say to themselves, you know, this is what the other side of the cliff looked like and here we are now. nobody does that. frankly, if you're really looking at this on a historical basis you need to and you have

to. the other side of the piece is we talk about wall street all the time. really the financial crisis, and this is what he spoke to, unmasked a much larger structural problem in this country. when you think about wages in america and why they've stagnated so much and manufacturing, that what really happened, he talked about this idea that there was a time when the in the early ots even if you were in manufacturing you got laid off. you didn't feel it. you know who why? you went off to get a construction job because the debt bubble was building this entire world and make you feel so much better and so again, it's this whole idea of relativity in terms of how he is ultimately perceived and what he was able to do. >> so let's look at it in perspective because we did see the other side of the cliff. and everyone sort of forgotten it. i think that the middle class, they remember, because they're still sort of there. >> right. >> does that make sense? does the president bear any responsibility for that? >> i think he does to some

degree but i think when you -- look. the question is, what in this era of globalization could a president meaningfully do to change that? and i would argue to you that you get unemployment from 10% from 5%, again, it's all relative. >> that's not -- >> i know, there's a great line in the piece from barney frank who talk about this bumper sticker that was made for him in 2010 that said, without me, it would have sucked more. right? or something like that. and it's not a very sellable message. that's what we talked about. >> i get that. i get that. >> you've reported on this for a very long time. average wages in america have been going down for 30, 40 years. globalization in ms. 78. the rise of china in '78. technology. there are a lot of different outside forces that washington seems incapable of answering, oath 30 side of the aisle. >> joe, what's fascinating about the whole rise of trump -- we talked about this before.

i really believe in campaign is going to be, if it plays out the way we think it's going to be, as much about trump versus obama as it is trump versus hillary clinton. but when you look at what's happened in this country, trump in an odd way has become the same sort of change candidate that barack obama was. >> how angry does it make barack obama? do you get into this, when people blame trump's rise on his failures? >> we didn't get directly into that. yes, in particular over the middle class issue and in particular the other piece is can you go back -- one of the things he speaks to is this idea of the bygone era. we all think and all of these politicians talk about going back to an era -- >> look at this. pulled in off the school tour. >> leave him alone. >> still in florida. this is obviously back in washington. >> can we still maybe prep school jokes?

>> where was that in an ikea? >> we went down to -- no, no. part of the story is we went -- it was interesting. we went down to a factory in florida that was paid for in part by the recovery act. he was sort of doing a belated victory tour down there. so we were sitting in -- >> looks like a bed, bath, and beyond. >> there's a lot of rationalization of his legacy that seems valid here. i think where there's a little bit of a blind spot in his rationalization is he's done nothing about the collusion of power and the perception of that collusion of money and power that has fueled the sanders and trump movements. yesterday his foundation doeners list came out. this capital partners, this capital partners. he is a deeply wall street figure and very anti-wall street age. i'm curious what -- >> what do you think about that is all of these wall street guy, at the same time they're giving him money, they're also talking smack. there's this constant -- he has a great line where he talks about how some hedge fund manager came up to him and asked

him why or said that his -- the hedge fund manager's son came up and said is my daddy a fat cat? because the president used to sort of say some of these things. so there is a little bit of this dynamic. >> this is fascinating. >> what's remarkable is a majority of republicans think wall street hurts america than helps america. >> sunday's "new york times" magazine. >> he's back. he's back. >> andrew ross sorkin. >> i would love to come back but i'm across the street doing "squawk." >> is our show over? >> no, not yet. (gasp) shark diving!

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all right. >> the show is not over. >> the economy is slow. breaking news to .0 a 5. the brakes slowed in two years. what did you learn today? >> i learned today that when you said that donald trump sounded jacksonian, i worried at first that you meant reggie jackson. >> no, andrew. >> i learned that ted cruz chose to double down on all his worst personal traits in picking someone as a running mate. >> wow. ouch. >> tough. tough way to end. >> catch joe and his band tonight at prohibition on the upper west side. 8:30 p.m. if you're in the area. come watch the band. they're asmazing. that does it for us this morning. steve kornacki picks up coverage after a short break."day feel"♪

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wrely on the us postal service? because when they ship with us, their business becomes our business. that's why we make more e-commerce deliveries to homes than anyone else in the country. here, there, everywhere. united states postal service priority: you and good morning from new york. i'm steve kornacki. topping our agenda right now, desperate times, desperate measures. ted cruz teams up with carly fiorina. is it going to get him anything, though, in do or die indian