talk about the general population, which let's be honest the republican base -- >> that's the question. how much damage outside the republican party was done. beth, tamera, kerry, thanks. tomorrow there will be msnbc live coverage of the primary and with all due respect starts right now. after tomorrow your candidacy might require something a little bit more like this. ♪ ♪ >> happy "game of thrones" belated spoiler alert. the attacks get petty and gender wars get ready and in studio,

debbie. first -- [ laughter ] >> really funny. all eyes on teddy. tomorrow indiana republican primary and let's just say team cruz needs to win it as much as john snow needs a fresh pair of pants. that's also funny. [ laughter ] >> our script writers. [ laughter ] >> are you crying? >> funny lines. today, ted cruz unleashed an army of surrogates in indiana and his wife chris crossed with carly. the republicans, donald trump leads the hoosiers state primary with 49%, ted cruz at 34 and john kasich at 13. the texas seasnator as an ad calling trump a phony. despite the odds, he earned more

free media with hacklers holding trump signs and later in marian, indiana. >> i am in for the distance, as long as we have a viable path to victory, i am competing to the end. i'm running to be everyone's president. those who vote for me -- >> we don't want you. >> you're entitled to your view, sir. >> do the math! kasich should drop out and it's your turn. >> i'm curious, sir, when he doesn't get to 1237. >> donald will definitely get 1237. he'll get more than 1237. >> politicians -- >> you are the problem. >> let me ask you something. >> you are the problem. >> you're the politician. you're the problem. >> where is your goldman sachs jacket? we know your wife works there. >> i was supported -- [ inaudible ] >> all over the country, average contribution is $60. on immigration, do you know donald trump? had a $1 million judgment for hiring illegal immigrations and

brings in hundreds of foreign workers instead of hiring americans. sir, with all respect, donald trump is deceiving. he is playing you for a chump. >> indiana don't want you. >> well, sir, you are entitled to your right but i'll tell you -- [ cheers ] >> sir, america is a better country without you. >> thank you for the kind sentiments. i've treated you respectfully the entire time and a question that everyone here should ask. >> are you canadian? >> nicole, ted cruz right now looks to everybody's eyes like he's going to lose in indiana. what happens globally if that happens? >> the political fallout is obvious. donald trump hasn't had a bad tuesday since wisconsin and donald trump keeps rumbling on but i have been inside a campaign in their final days and i think that there are things you know and things you say and i got the distinctive impression

from watching ted cruz there, which was sort of a bizarre interaction with someone on the rope line but did a couple strained interviews with mike pence who gave the most half hearted indivorendorsement. when you clean up half hardness, it is not good. it's hard to think of ted cruz as a human being in the same week when boehner called him lucifer. >> in the flesh. >> in the flesh. campaigns in their final days when you see the writing on the wall and cruz is a savvy political analyst is difficult. he knows exactly what will happen. >> no question, the cruz campaign and kasich campaign understand what is going on. i would not be totally surprised to see if it's a shellacking tomorrow, if trump wins by 15 points as the "wall street journal" poll suggestions for more. it's not outside their own possibility cruz will quit, i think. not outside the realm of possibility. it becomes very hard, the mat

becomes very, very hard for ted cruz to become, to stop donald trump from getting to 1237, let alone become the nominee. trump is on a real guide path if he wins all of indiana's delegates tomorrow, which could happen. he may go on. the whole race on wednesday will look different, i mean, wildly different because trump will get endorsements that people don't expect. the race will look very much like it's over if this happens. it looks like it's going to happen. >> i think cruz and kasich will have an impossible argument to make if trump looks like he'll get to 1237. they were never going to win enough delegates. it doesn't look like they will be successful. >> you have trump being able to make the geographical argument. this was the last stand -- >> right, the last region. >> you won in the northeast and south but we can stop him here in the midwest. we'll put our money here like wisconsin. we lost by 15. never mind. >> never mind. >> so lots of cards to play in politics. there is a race card. electability card, the card at

the end of the deck that tells you the rules and of course, there's the woman card. that card has received a lot of attention in the past week thanks mostly to donald trump stepping up his attacks on hillary clinton. here is a very, very fast brief refresher to get you caught up. >> trump, hillary, the woman card. here is what happened. trump sweeps tuesday's primary. he says the only thing hillary has going for her is the woman's card. hillary says if fighting for equal pay is playing the women card. >> then deal me in. >> the next morning trump ups the ante and says hillary shouts and repeats she wouldn't be doing as well if she was a dude. trump adds it's not sexist but it's true. >> what is wrong with being sexy? >> everyone is talking about the woman card. >> the woman card. >> the woman card. >> the woman card. >> on friday hillary says she's used to dealing with men that get off the reservation. trump tweets actually she's done poorly and says hillary's comment was very nasty.

some native americans are upset. >> wow. so john, the clinton campaign says it raised $2.4 million after trump's woman card comment. what exactly is donald trump up to in your view? >> it's interesting. you know, there is this sense that there are people in the republican int republican world -- >> that have much influence. >> trump is trying to do jujitsu and hillary's strength as a woman, historic first female nominee. he'll turn her strength against her. i actually think it's not that strategic. i'm interest in whether you think this is effective and whether it does anything to solve his woman problem that he clearly has. >> well, so to me this is in the same vein as his crazy megyn kelly attack. what is interesting is you're going to spend a lot of time talking about the woman's vote and huge crowds of voters.

most are totally unavailable to any republican, especially donald trump. what he actually needs to improve upon is standing among married women and i think that he has to be very careful in saying that the only reason she's in this is because she's a woman. no woman in the workplace feels like their gender is giving them a boost up. most women feel like it is a hurdle, pregnancy, maternity leave. difficult. i think he has to be very careful. >> she is going to win with women voters, most democrats will. the question is how does he keep the margin from being disastrous. >> you can't win unless you shrink it. >> there are security moms that want to be kept safe and worried about the world melting down. those are available votes. it continues to strike me he is not taking seriously this problem enough because for a lot of those women that would like a strong man candidate, if they hear demeaning about gender, it is going to shut them down to him completely. >> i completely agree. >> as trump closes in on 1237

delegates, swirling around is all but unavoidable and if trump might prefer to name himself as his own running mate, many are speculating over who that person might be as trump tries to mend relationship party leaders. there was a new york times story when great mentioners offered a few great mentions but suggested a number of candidates, john kasich, jeb bush, scott walker would in fact decline the position if offered. ni nicole, let's put aside the mindless guessing game. >> who would say yes and no. >> what do you think is a matter of political strategy, should be the criteria trump uses to select a running mate? >> i think he has been a stute in filling and he would pick somebody in government. he shoots from the hip plenty if he had someone stable and steady

by his sides, that would be 100% asset. what i think the question will be is you just talked about the security vote. the security mom vote. whether he looks to the military to a former general, whether he, you know, i can't think of a sitting governor whose a woman who would be available to him and who would be a good running mate but i think there are a lot of people that served in the military who would sure up the most glaring vulnerability. >> first and foremost, pick someone who the voters see and the media filters sees as ready to be president from day one. that's the first think. second thing, although he does have an advantage over clinton in someways over strength, he does not in terms of qualifications to be commander in chief. to me, that's the biggest problem. if you could get that qualifications sured up a bit with his strength, you've got a potent hand to play. you could really fall down. >> by saying he gets military information. >> from the shows. from the shows. >> he watches them all. he can tune in one sunday and

pick them. >> i've been on the sunday show. you should not be getting national security advice from us. >> i'm with you. >> so when we come back, the democratic race in indiana and bernie sanders delegate sales pitch. after these words from our sponsors. differently. flonase is the first and only nasal spray approved to relieve both itchy, watery eyes and congestion. no other nasal allergy spray can say that. when we breathe in allergens our bodies react by over producing six key inflammato substances that no other nasal allergy spray can say that. cause our symptoms. most allergy pills only control one substance. flonase controls six. and x is greater than one. more complete allergy relief. flonase. 6>1 changes everything. innovative sonicare technology with up to 27% more brush movements versus oral b. get healthier gums in 2 weeks guaranteed. innovation and you. philips sonicare. save when you buy the most loved rechargeable toothbrush brand in america.

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back in the hoosiers state today holding three rallies as polls suggest maybe, just maybe he's starting to close the gap with hillary clinton in indiana down the final stretch. that new nbc wall street journal poll shows sanders trailing clinton by only four points. 50% to 46% which is within the polls margin of error. meanwhile, clinton has moved on to other states. today she's campaign income kentucky, west virginia this that vote on may 10th and she'll be in the general election battle ground state of ohio.

nicole, i asked what would happen if ted cruz loses tomorrow in indiana. what happens if hillary clinton loses in indiana? >> i mean, i know we'll get into this later but because of the way democrats pick their nominee because this is superdelegates, he's still out of it. it's over. if i could reach this table with my head, i would bang it on it. >> i can push it closer. >> actually, i did it last tuesday and it hurt. you know, i mean, he is now mathematically eliminated. a mystery to me is why democrats treat him so gently. i remember hillary clinton getting pressure in 2008 to get out of ocbamaobama's way. maybe you can explain that. >> first of all, i think that it is the case that this did happen in 2008, right? hillary clinton kept fighting long after -- >> winning. she won -- >> yes, this is what happened. not just texas. >> huge state. >> west virginia with big margins, indiana. she fought on even though the math was -- made it impossible.

he has a right to go on like that. i think the main reason he handled with gloves is because of the fact he's connected with a set of voters she absolutely needs in a general election. young voters, the future of the party. one thing sanders says is true is young democrats have been drawn to him much more than they should have been drawn to her. she needs them eventually. the democratic party knows they need them. no one wants to be too mean to bernie sanders for fear of turning off the voters. >> the problem is trump is echoing and telegraphing all of sanders attacks on her and that is not helpful. >> could be dangerous down the line. >> bernie sanders knows he's fighting an uphill battle for the democratic nomination but not letting that get in his way with the superdelegates he says should back him in the convention regardless of who wo walks in there with more votes. here he is in indiana.

>> the point we'll make to the superdelegates, all of whom share that same understanding is that poll after poll, virtually every single national poll, every single poll in a battle ground state like indiana, you know what those polls show? they show that by far bernie sanders is the strongest candidate to defeat donald trump. [ cheers ] >> so, my mental image now is that bernie and jane and melania and donald sitting in the tv room slipping through the polls. check out this one. >> look, here is the thing, i don't know if bernie sanders believes a word of this but insane if he does for two reasons. one, superdelegates who will look at the end of this and have clinton winning in the pledged delegates and popular vote -- by. >> by millions. >> will not overturn the will. they will not do it. second thing is these polls are thoroughly bogus in every way.

hillary clinton is subjected to 30 years of attacks from republicans. of course. >> because we know he'll win. >> he does better in the hypothetical general election polls which are dubious to begin with. when down think of the information between what voters know about sanders versus what they know about hillary clinton. >> right. >> do you find this pervasive? >> no. >> if you were a superdelegate what would you say to bernie sanders? >> pound sand. locked up. they are not reliable. here is the serious point. he could actually be helpful to her, but i think he's sort of paralyzed the whole system. the white house is being cautious not to offend voters, very much obama voters and locked this up. as a republican, really, i shouldn't care, but just watching this, i can't help but feel there is a gender piece to him getting treated with a lot of tenderness and worried about feelings when she was really harped on to get out. >> yeah. i'm -- i don't fully disagree with that.

>> wow. >> talk about it more later on. >> up next, we go on the ground to indiana to preview trump's rally tonight. nbc's katy tur joins us from south bend after this quick break. one coat, yes! ♪ there is a day, for every number. ♪ ♪ there is a time, for all my slumbers. ♪ ♪ and i can see, that i can't run and hide. ♪ one coat guaranteed marquee interior. behr's most advanced paint. come find our top rated paints, only at the home depot. for those who've missgone to extremespe. to escape their unlenting nasal allergy symptoms... houston: news alert... new from the makers of claritin, clarispray. ♪ welcome back. clarispray is a nasal allergy spray that contains the #1 prescribed, clinically proven ingredient.

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or any symptoms of an allergic reaction, stop taking cialis and get medical help right away. ask your doctor about cialis and a $200 savings card. this clean was like pow! can a toothpaste do everything well? it added this other level of clean to it. it just kinda like...wiped everything clean. 6x cleaning my teeth are glowing. they are so white. 6x whitening i actually really like the 2 steps. step 1, cleans step 2, whitens. every time i use this togethererit felt like... ...leaving the dentist office. crest hd. 6x cleaning, 6x whitening i would switch to crest hd over what i was using before. she had her fame, joining us now from the home of the fighting irish is katy tur covering donald trump's victory.

i don't know why they made me do the notre dame fight song in that script. i'm happy to do it because you're there. donald trump doing a little less. the cruz campaign, the trump campaign is watching the cruz campaign i'm sure carefully. what do they think right now what they are seeing from ted cruz in the last 24 hours before the vote starts in indiana? >> reporter: they believe it's an act of desperation from a trump supporter today and arguing with them is evidence of that according to the campaign. you heard donald trump on the stage just a few minutes ago in caramel, indiana talking about the confrontation and thanking that guy and asking me if that man was in his crowd at that rally. the campaign feels extraordinary confident about indiana and last week. they feel even more confident now they are up 15 points in the nbc news poll that is just out on yesterday and they are already starting to look ahead towards the general election. they say they will be running a

general election campaign from now, especially, regardless of whether or not ted cruz or john kasich are still in this race and you're seeing that, john, you're seeing that because donald trump is already trying to bring in some bernie sanders supporters and talking about how the system is unfair to sanders trying to say they are both outsiders, not clear how much support he'll get from the bernie sanders camp. there is evidence that seemed to like them both. i don't think it's a wide spread thing. you're also seeing him attack hillary clinton even more than he already has. today he had lunch with ed kline, the infamous anti clinton author down in indiana. regardless of whether or not they win in indiana and believe they will do it. they are starting to form late general election campaign and starting to talk about vice presidential picks. talking about donald trump will

sit down and try and see who is out there and who would be the best fit for his campaign. >> katy, it's nicole and i'm wondering if trump feels satisfaction from pence. pence went ahead and endorsed cruz but so half hearted i think trump ended up getting the better end and i wonder if he thinks this is a model, if he wants to go into states to get endorsement or just if he sees the benefit of working with the gop establishment in the outcome in indiana. >> reporter: i was so happy to hear your voice, nicole. i don't know if you saw my giant smile when i heard it. as to what you were saying, i think we're seeing this, even though he enendorsement, he did speak about donald trump and spoke very glowingly about donald trump. that's partially because pence is fading in his own reelection

and realizing the state is going more towards donald trump than ted cruz so he's trying to walk the line there by the more evangelical supporters and potentially the rest of the state. i think they would see that a as model for success going forward. they haven't necessarily needed endorsements this entire campaign, though, nick coole. they haven't gone after them. initially, they weren't expecting many endorsements but now that he's won so much, now that momentum is on his side and seems much more like inevidencebiliinevitabl ininevitabinevidenctable inevitability. they will get bigger endorsements. boehner saying he would vote for him is certainly is something they are happy to hear as well as senator bob corker coming out and saying he may endorse, that was taken by the campaign and taken by a lot to sound like he potentially could endorse donald trump. going forward, i think they like

to have more endorsements but i don't think they necessarily need them. i think the popular pop culture endorsements serve them better in a lot of ways. look at indiana. gene katy of the purdue. you have lou holtz of notre dame and bobby night. those three sports legends served him better than the governor has. >> katy, you mentioned endorsements and i know the campaign spent some time trying to line up big endorsements for after tuesday. wednesday will be a very big day in trump world. do you have a sense of how they are orchestrating that day and the rest of this week on the premise they will win tuesday night, what they think the rest of the week will be for them to send the signal loud and clear as strong as possible to everyone that the race is over and it's time to rally around donald trump. >> i think you have a little better information than i do, john. i don't know who exactly they will bring out. we can see that they have often

came with a big announcement and came later in the day so the news cycle can dominate during the day and then dominate the next day's news cycle, but in terms of who those endorsements will be, i think you have maybe a slightly better inside track than i do at the moment. >> i think it's going to be a big week. nicole, you got a quick one for katy? >> what's the plan for tomorrow night. is he going to go west wing presidential style with plays behind him or mix it up? what's the plan for tomorrow, what we expect to be victory? >> it's whatever he feels like tomorrow is going to be a big night for him and he's feeling confident, then i think you're going to see the usual donald trump, which is the anti establishment donald trump who will come out and attack hillary clinton. if he does win by a big margin against ted cruz, we have seen him be gracious in winning speeches. this could be the nail in the coffin for ted cruz. if it is, i think donald trump

will come out and congratulate crui cruz on a campaign well done. >> kate, you're splendid in purple in indiana. say hello to the fighting irish for us, katy. up next, can ted cruz sink a buzzer beater in the hoosiers state? we'll find out right after this. ♪ what backache? what sore wrist?

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there are hundreds of different allergens that come from pets, pollen and dust. just one claritin provides 24-hour relief of symptoms that can be triggered by over 200 allergens. yeah, over 200 allergens! with claritin, she's not focused on her allergy symptoms. she's focused on winning. with powerful, 24-hour, non-drowsy claritin, my allergies don't come between me and victory. live claritin clear. ♪ no, you're not ♪ yogonna watch it! ♪tch it! ♪

♪ we can't let you download on the goooooo! ♪ ♪ you'll just have to miss it! ♪ yeah, you'll just have to miss it! ♪ ♪ we can't let you download... uh, no thanks. i have x1 from xfinity so... don't fall for directv. xfinity lets you download your shows from anywhere. i used to like that song. the next guest is former attorney general from virginia joining us from washington d.c. in one second. nicole, if you're ken, the guy who is the director of delegate operations. >> one of the most successful -- >> of the campaign. how much are you looking at what's about to happen conceivably tomorrow in indiana

thinking all of this work that we just put in going around wrangling these delegates for the second ballot could be blown away in the trump hurricane? >> i'm pretty sure this isn't what he's going to say but crushing. once you worked on campaigns and arguably been one of the most successful aspects of the campaign. unfortunately for the cruz effort, it became part of the trump message, right? when they found out cruz was doing well at winning delegates and setting up for a victory, trump turned it into part of his message about a rigged system. >> it's funny. usually, you know, the ideal politician, great outside game and inside game. >> obama, bush. >> bush, right. both, right? in this cycle, almost uniquely in my -- in fact, uniquely in my professional experience is a cycle in which the inside game is a liability in someways because you can't have a good inside game without it somewhat compromising your outside game. >> absolutely. >> cruz has problems but that is

a huge issue. >> he ran a near perfect campaign. they are not successful tomorrow, they can say they did everything in their power and sort of like the wizard of oz, right? one candidate represented the heart. another one the brain. you know, if you go with that analogy, i would give cruz the brain and trump the heart. >> one thing powerful about cruz and trump's argument is we acknowledged the system is actually rigged. a rigged system doesn't mean there is something wrong. in a weird way you can say it's rigged without saying there is something bad about it. >> it's not corrupt. >> the rules are laid out for all to see. the democratic system and republican system have been waited towards allowing the establishment to control the system and putting thumbs on the scales in various ways. here is the question as someone whose been a republican her whole life. do you think that system can survive, no matter what wins, no matter who the nominee is, is that a way of electing, nominating republicans that can

survive after trump in 2020 and 2024? >> my instinct would be to say that trump sort of burns the votes but once you win you don't have as many problems. if trump prevails, it's hard to say now we change everything. the people with grievances with the system usually aren't in a position to change it and the people that thrive despite a rigged system don't have the appetite to go through the work to change it. >> it seems to me, an interesting thing, if trump becomes the republican nominee and wins the general election, then trump will have control over the system in the next cycle. if trump were to win and to lose, it would be an interesting question to me what will then, who will then be ascending? will the forces of populism that have been unleashed by trump, will they be the dominant forces going forward in 2020 and therefore insist that this system be changed in some profound way or will the establishment regain the whip hand and say trump had his fun,

we unleashed the force of populism and look where it got us and republican establishment can retake control and there by keep the system in tact despite the criticism that it's received in the cycle? i don't know the answer. >> the republican establishment is dead, dead, dead. i don't think it can be revived. what the trump movement will birth, if you will, is sort of a new republican party rooted in the base, more rooted in not the grass roots. when you talk about republican grass roots, you're usually talking about social conservative issues and nra lobby. i think that the republican base will be expanded to include econom econom econom econom economic populist. let's bring in ken. we were talking about your job while we were waiting for you to get miked up. the part of your campaign, the cruz campaign admired by certainly for political

professionals is the part you've been working on, right? yet, it does not at this moment seem like it's going to be enough to stop the kind of gail force of donald trump. how are you feeling about how things are setting up for-off guys at this moment? >> well, we are a grass roots based campaign and that works on two sides. one the elections and caucuses that take place and also the convention process that i work a lot in is built on the backs of people who believe in ted's vision for more freedom from government and i heard about the comment of economic populism. that is crushing the regulatory state and apparatus as best we can. ted laid out a plan to do that. people get excited as well as a plan for economic growth. it's those issues that conservative activism is built on and that are grass roots success has been built on and that's ted's vision. >> can you help explain where this sort of gulf is between his hand to hand combat with voters.

winning delegates and getting them to agree to vote for you on a second ballot is really hard and making that sale has a lot to do with personal charisma and character, yet, boehner calling him lucifer. the public persona in a volume business is terrible. the one on one ability to connect is unrivalled. can you explain the difference? >> it's interesting. i was at the virginia convention saturday for ten hours and in my three minutes of remarks for senator cruz, i actually focused on what boehner said and commented have you ever seen john boehner have this kind of passion fighting barack obama? and cruz and trump people resoundingly know it was thunderous. have you ever seen him have this passion protecting our border? no. it was cruz and trump people. there is a very universal just loathing for current washington leadership of both parties and ted has fought it day in and day

out for -- as he said -- >> if i could interrupt. let me challenge you because it's not just people disagree with him but they dislike him personally. grass roots are not immune to lack of charisma. why do they see it and nobody does when they watch him on tv? is the thing the tv camera doesn't pick up or people in the senate don't pick up? are we missing? >> certainly, certainly i think a lot of people in the senate and in the house, they are part of the problem. i mean, the majority of members of that republican senate and the republican house caucuses are part of the problem. they are not part of the solution, and ted cruz has challenged those people day in and day out and they don't like being challenged and they don't like having a measuring stick held up to them that suggestions in fact they are not conservatives they say they are when they go back to home districts and they are very slow to embrace a ted cruz because he

has been part of the problem. they count on the mushroom treatment i call it to keep their people in the dark and feed them crap and ted cruz doesn't let them do that. he doesn't let them do that and a lot of people appreciate it is a big part of the base of support. the irony is that so many people who wanted ted to go and fight and appreciate him doing it, then do are some of the people that say well, not everybody likes him. well, that's true. but if the john boehner's of the world are the ones that don't like him, should be a sign he's doing something right. >> you don't despite the fact they have gone all over indiana. >> it's the only state up tomorrow. we certainly have put more resources than any state now. people in nebraska, people in

california campaigning at the same time. >> so if ted cruz loses tomorrow decisively to donald trump in indiana, what's the argument -- we only have 30 seconds but what's the argument going forward with ted cruz by the margins the polls suggest today he will? >> well, well look, we have only had one state that was a must win and it was texas and he won there. until donald trump actually crosses 1237, this competition goes on and it is a competition of ideas and more than that. you talked about charisma, there are other elements that go into this and people change their view of those as the days go on. >> all right. >> and we count on that some and we continue to build at the grass roots level on ted's vision. we'll try to bring it over the top in indiana tomorrow and whether we do or not, we'll go to california or cleveland. >> as the millennials say, ttyl. >> i don't know what that means.

>> neither do i. talk to you later. up next, the dl, i think that means the down low from nancy, dws, brb. >> i know that. you live life your way. we can help you retire your way, too. financial guidance while you're mastering life. from chase. so you can. people are taking charge of their type 2 diabetes with non-insulin victoza®. for a while, i took a pill to lower my blood sugar. but it didn't get me to my goal. so i asked my doctor about victoza®. he said victoza® works differently than pills. and comes in a pen. victoza® is proven to lower blood sugar and a1c. it's taken once a day, any time.

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and call your doctor right away if you have signs of pancreatitis such as severe pain that will not go away in your abdomen or from your abdomen to your back, with or without vomiting. tell your doctor about all the medicines you take and if you have any medical conditions. taking victoza® with a sulfonylurea or insulin may cause low blood sugar. the most common side effects are headache, nausea, diarrhea, and vomiting. side effects can lead to dehydration, which may cause kidney problems. if your pill isn't giving you the control you need ask your doctor about non-insulin victoza®. it's covered by most health plans. when we talk about a rigged system, it's also important to understand how the democratic convention works.

with e ha we have won 45% of pledged delegates but only earned 7% of superdelegates. >> boo! >> so in other words, the way this system works is you have establishment candidates who win virtually all of the superdelegates. it makes it hard for insurgence candidates like us to win. >> reeling against the process. joining us to talk about this race at that process, debbie schultz. ms. chairwoman, nice to see you. >> thank you. >> why is bernie sanders wrong? >> bernie sanders is wrong because we have had these rules in place since 1984 and we have two types of delegates. the delegates that are pledged that are elected by voters or that represent voters based on the outcome and then we have

party leaders and other elected officials who have been in the trenches a long time and have a role, appropriately so in choosing our party's nominee and important to note that the unpledged delegates or superdelegates have never played a role in actually selecting our party's nominee. >> can you explain why he's wrong? i understand the history of the system and why -- the system exists and he should be played by the rules. >> what do you mean wrong? >> the critique -- >> because -- >> it's stacked so establishment politicians benefit and so insurgent candidates benefits. >> it's never occurred the party's nominee has been selected by superdelegates. i mean, we have had a nominee -- >> why do you have them. we'll take them if you decide to get rid of them. we'll use them. >> you could use them. >> why do you have them? you give him an excuse for staying in. he's clearly doing her harm. i thought he does a better job

than rhim. why don't you guys, you know, why can't you control his desire to stay in past the point? >> this election will be decided by voters who are going to vote because they care about who is the one that will ultimately have their back help them reach the middle class. the general election will be decide that way. i won't handicap how the primary plays out. it is appropriate and our democratic national committee members decided it's appropriate for us to have elected officials and party leader haves a role at our convention and the pledge delegates who are selected by voters. i mean, they are both important and this is also important to note, which i've said repeatedly throughout the election cycle. if you did -- it was decided a long time ago in part to have super delegates because otherwise, you would have at the district level with activists,

you would end up with the only way to become adele get is for everyone to run at the district level, then you'd -- how is an activist going to compete against an elected official much better known -- >> in this scenario -- can you play a little fantasy game with me? i'm an establishment republican. these are grim days. if she loses by a smij to trump, is it fair to look back if trump didn't do damage by questioning ethics and qualifications all spring it might have turned out different? >> no, because hillary clinton earned 10 million votes. she has more than 1 million votes more than donald trump. coming out of the last five or seven of our primaries, our voters have consistently said they are enthusiastic about supporting either candidate. 58% of the pennsylvania republicans coming out said they thought their party had actually been harmed. >> trump wins no fault to bernie. >> i don't think donald trump is

going to win. >> fantasy game. >> right. well. yeah, that's a nightmare, not a fantasy. so i don't want to go there and i think voters will make a decision based on who they hope will move us forward and build on the progress we've made. >> let me ask you about two other critiques. the first is about same-day registration. is there an argue -- >> by the way, can i point out there is irony in him criticizing a process that now he wants to use to become the party's nominee. just saying. >> the irony alert. is there an argument against same-day regular station for democratic primaries? what's the argument against that? >> i support same-day regular station. i support automatic registration, same-day registration. any reform. we're the party that believes we should maximize people's opportunity to vote and republicans believe we should shrink the electret because the only way they can win elections consistently is by having fewer people vote. >> let me get to the second one. open primaries versus closed.

the close red a disaster and we should have all open primaries to reach out to independents. how do you feel about open primaries versus close snd. >> how a primary is structured is decided by state law. >> how do you feel about open primaries? >> i absolutely believe a party's nominee should be chosen by someone registered with the party. we should not have independents or republicans playing games and -- >> crossover appeal. >> just to be clear, you're against the open primaries currently in the system and would like to get rid of them and only democratic closed democratic proor mimaries. >> this is debbie schultz' opinion, the party's nominee should be chosen by members of the party and frankly, i wouldn't suggestion we start trying to change that in the states where it exists now but we certainly shouldn't have more than already exists. ultimately, it's up to the states. >> i want you to come back at some point and talk about whether you think it's a problem bernie sanders wasn't even a democrat for most of his career.

>> we decided he should run and we welcomed him with open arms. >> thank you for stopping by. >> sure. >> up next, the golden state prize, a big preview with sun who knows what it takes to win in that state and remember, if you're watching us in washington d.c., you can listen to us on the radio at bloomberg 98.1 fm. we'll be right back.

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show me "previously watched." what's recommended for me. x1 makes it easy to find what you love. call or go online and switch to x1. only with xfinity. on june the 7th, californians will be the final voters in both parties. here to talk how the golden state works on the democratic side is the former governor of that state, gray davis who endorsed hillary clinton and joins us from the global conference in los angeles. let me ask you for the moment to take off your proclinton hat. the sanders campaign is right. how do you think sanders has a chance of winning your home

state? >> i think bernie sanders will run a very competitive race in california. i think it will be close. i think hillary will win in the mid single digits in part of years because of service and california with the clintons, the four best years in my lifetime were the final four years of clinton's term and we had record surpluses and 22 million new jobs. so i think he's the beneficiary of that and admiration as secretary of state and two-term united states senator. >> it's been a long time since california's vote hazm has matt. would you say it will be a difference and people register and go through the motion of voting, do you think there will be a difference in november because of the primary mattered? >> yes, because when people vote

primary, if they win, it's like giving someone $5 you're invested in them. so i'm looking for a big turnout on both sides. i think trump is likely to win on the republican side and i think, as i said, the turnout but really important to get people out and understand how important this election is. the supreme court hangs in the balance and president hangs in the balance. it's hard to say when that happened before. >> governor, it's interesting to me. i'm a native californian myself and used to be republican and got elected in california. it's been a long time since that happened. governor schwarzenegger was kind of more of an independent than straight down the line republican. why do you think it is in today's california republican party, why does donald trump look so much like the favorite to everyone who looks at your state from a far?

>> because he's speaking to a group of americans that -- for whom the american dream is not working. i believe in my heart and i always campaign on john kennedy's remark that a rising title of sailboats and i used to say mine doesn't have to go up as much as your yacht but everyone has to feel they are experiencing upward mobility. there are a lot not experiencing that and i think that is the over riding reason why trump is being successful. he says i'm a businessman, i'm not taking contributions for anyone. i'm my own person and going to fight for the people who have been overlooked by the american political establishment. >> can you imagine a scenario will trump puts california in play? you seem to have your political analyst hat on today. >> i think it's very difficult, nicole.

as you know, john certainly knows, 44% of this state is hispanic and 26% of the current vote is hispanic. we have more immigrants than any other state. he's offended a lot of people and i'm sure the words he used in the primary will come back to hunt him in the general election. not impossible but i just think the reservoir of goodwill that california had for hillary, recognition of public service, remembering how good the last four years have built clinton's economy, those are strong currents running in hillary's favor. >> gray davis, good to have you and we'll see you out there for the primary real soon and we'll be right back here even sooner. and you work hard to keep it that way. ♪ sometimes, maybe too hard. get claimrateguard® from allstate. it helps keep your homeowners' rate from going up just because of a claim. call an allstate agent first. 888-429-5722.

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so unless you want a life of skimming wifi off the neighbors, you'll harness the hardworking power of the peanut. (cheering) check out your 2016 news. nicole, thank you for coming in. when you come back. >> i made you cry, of course. >> still thinking about it.

join us tomorrow for the hoosiers state election day coverage. until then, i'm not going to cry anymore but i will say sigh narcotbye. "hardball" with chris matthews is next. the hoosiers bring closure. let's play hardball. good evening. i'm chris matthews in washington. the stop trump movement is on the verge of collapse. ted cruz and john kasich formed an alliance and hoped to set up a roadblock in indiana tomorrow. polls show the new york businessmen to sweep the state. the latest nbc news wall street journal poll of likely republican voters shows trump with a 15-point lead over cruz in indiana. that's tomorrow. cruz is increasingly desperate, of course. last week we rushed out the running mate selection and yesterday warned indiana voters to quote not give into evil.