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i'm peter alexander. up first, trump taps chris christie. even as the party erupt, the presumptive nominee is looking beyond the convention, looking beyond november. trump's campaign announcing a big role today for his rival turned ally, chris christie now going to lead donald trump's white house leadership team should donald trump lead the presidency. this comes days before trump's thursday meeting with house speaker, paul ryan. trump didn't rule out removing ryan as the convention chair this summer, should ryan continue to hold his endorsement. >> if he can't endorse you, do you think the hold be chair of the convention? >> i don't want to mention now. i'll see after. i will give you a very solid answer, if that happens, about one minute after that happens. okay? no reason to give it right now. >> fair. it sounds like i know what -- >> something that could further complicate that thursday

meeting, trump's jaw dropping shift on taxes, the begillionai said he's open to raising taxes on the rich, first trump's comments yesterday on "meet the press." >> which is it? are you willing to raise taxes on the .1% or not? >> let me explain how the world works, okay? i came up with the biggest tax break by far of any candidate and i put it in. that doesn't mean that's what we will get. we have to negotiate. the thing i will do is make sure the middle class gets good tax breaks. they have been absolutely shunned. the other thing i will fight very hard for business. for the wealthy, i think frankly it's going to go up. you know what, it really should go up. >> in an interview today, trump insisted his comments about tax rates for the wealthy have been misunderstood. >> it really is a proposal but it's a very steep proposal. i said i may have to increase the section -- by the way,

everybody across the board, businesses, everybody's getting a tax cut, especially the middle class. and i said, i may have to increase it on the wealthy. i'm not going to allow it to be increased on the middle class. if i increase on the wealthy, that means they're still paying less than they pay now. >> let's begin now with my colleague, nbc's katy tur in new york, she's had a ringside seat from the beginning. clump picking chris christie for this role establishing what a trump administration might look like if he is in fact to be president. is this in some way designed to help him heal the rift with speaker ryan or others within the party? no audio. >> we're not hearing katkaty. i thought we might be and it was all me. apparently we're all missing out on what she's saying now.

i want to move on to congressman chris collins, the republican from new york, the first member of congress to endorse donald trump. congressman, nice to see you. thanks for being with us. >> peter, it's nice to be with you today. >> you were an early supporter for donald trump who bears more responsibility in terms of trying to bridge the gap here is the first question out of the ga gates. is the responsibility for bri e bridging this gap donald trump or is it speaker ryan? >> i was proud to endorse donald going on now about 11 weeks ago and he exceeded any and all of our predictions. we knew he'd get to 1237, never thought it would be on may 4th. now, we have 10 weeks to unite as a party before the convention, not just at the convention, to bring the fight to hillary clinton. we know she'll be their nominee. we do need to unite. >> you're talking about the need to unite. is the responsibility paul ryan's or donald trump's to help unite this party? when you heard paul ryan say he wasn't ready yet, was that a satisfactory answer to you?

>> certainly, we need to come together sooner than later. reince priebus, the chairman of the rnc and donald have come together thursday. mr. trump and speaker ryan are getting together. i am confident at the end of this, we're going to be -- have that united. meanwhile, more and more members of congress, chairman of committ committees, my phone is ringing off the hook, they're coming on board. hillary is the great uniter. i do expect by the end of this week you will have mr. ryan there as well. i think it's a very positive step that they're having the meeting. we have our little differences but we've all said, include plg ryan, we are going to support the republican nominee to defeat hillary clinton, the future of our country -- >> that's not entirely true. both of the bushes, 41 and 43 say they're not going to participate in the convention this summer. unclear who they'll vote for. mitt romney the 202012 nominee y says he won't vote.

you're describing it as a small disagreement but you have major players saying they won't support the nominee. what is your message to mitt romney and the bush family? >> as i said about mitt romney he lost a race he should have won. if he had done what he should have done four years ago the country wouldn't be in the mess it is. it's sour grapes, call it what you will, it es irrelevant. you will see other members of the establish disappointed in the bushes. beyond disappointed, they're y saying what they're saying. donald trump's allure is the fact he is anti-establish and he will do what it takes as the ceo to secure our borders and get our jobs back and keep us safe. yeah. i'm very disappointed in some establish figures. it's not surprising. they lost to mr. trump, he closed them out on may 4th, something they said was totally impossible. to use the words, he embarrassed them because he accomplished something no one thought possible. i'm disappointed.

it has no impact what will happen in november. >> is the bush family irrelevant, too? yes or no? >> with the answer they've given they have just become irrelevant, along with mr. romney? >> the bush family is irrelevant as well. let me ask you specific to this issue of taxes. donald trump has come under fire, scrutiny, pick your language, changing his tone in effect if not his positions on taxes in the last several days, specifically on raising taxes on the wealthy. i want you to listen to some of what he's said in recent intervi interviews. >> do you believe in raising taxes on the wealthy? >> i do. i do. including myself, i do. >> in an interview earlier this week, you seemed to say, my tax plan, it's not set in stone and maybe i will raise tax, maybe i will actually raise taxes on the rich. i guess which is it? are you willing to raise taxes on the .1%? >> let me explain how the world works, okay? i come up with the biggest tax cut by far of any candidate,

anybody, i put it in. that doesn't mean that's what we're going to get. we have to negotiate. >> i said i may have to increase the section -- by the way, everybody across the board, business, everybody's getting a tax cut, especially the middle class. and i said that i may have to increase it on the wealthy. >> congressman collins, what do you say to the republicans right now who say donald trump can't be trusted to stick to his own propos proposals, specifically on this one, on taxes? >> well, i think, peter, it comes down to the massive cut, we're the highest taxed nation in the world, certainly our corporate taxes are what's caused all these inversions into ireland and other countries. so if you come out with a plan that was going to be a flat rate i don't know of 20% or 24 or 25 and he's now nuancing it saying we have to have the math balance -- >> you're satisfied -- it's a cut across the board still, correct? >> oh, yeah. he has said these are cuts across the board. today -- >> you said the opposite, right? today he said for the wealthy on

the "today" show when asked point-blank about the wealthy he said it will go up on the wealthy. it hasn't been consistent. >> compared to his proposal. he did say compared to his proposal. i don't know the nuance, if his proposal was 20 and now says the wealthy may have to pay 23. i pay 43.4. for someone like me -- >> i guess that's 25%, yeah. >> so 25. let's just say then peter, 25 became 26 1/2 or 27, it's 43.2 right now with the obamacare tax on top of 39.6. i can tell you, speaking as someone who pays at the highest rates i would welcome paying 26 or 27 versus 43.2. these are the nuances we're getting into. donald trump understands we're the highest taxed nation in the world. when we get the jobs back and get investment here in this country, we have to get real when it comes to marginal tax rates on businesses and individu individuals. >> congressman collins, nice to visit with you, thanks for your time.

appreciate it. >> peter, always good to be with you. >> a research fellow with the hoover institution and director of domestic policy studies at stanford university, also the former policy director for the romney/ryan 2012 campaign. i feel like you and i were ch e chasing across the globe this time four years ago as i was chasing your boss, the former governor of massachusetts. if i can, out of the gate, you just heard congressman chris collins say mitt romney and the bush family are now effectively irrelevant. what's your response to that? >> peter, look, that's just somebody spouting off their mouth. clearly, governor romney, president bush, both president bush s, governor bush have both served our party ably and done it in a way a lot of people respect. one man's opinion, i don't share that opinion. thick what governor romney and what the bushes have to say is entirely rerlt to this contest because it speaks to donald trump's inability that's

conservative. >> past presidential nominees including mitt romney have shunned donald trump. trump isn't going to let them hear the end of this right now. here is some of what he said about mitt romney. take a listen. >> i helped mitt a lot. i raised a lot of money for him. i ruined the carpet of my apartments we had so many people come. we actually had to have two fund raisers. i helped mitt romney a lot. >> you feel like he was ungrateful? >> i believe i helped him win five states he was going to lose. >> sounds like you think he was ungrateful? >> he was. he was ungrateful. it's okay, a lot of people are ungrateful. >> the paul ryans and his former presidential running mate, do they need to bow to the will of the people, as sarah palin describes it? >> i think it's important for what speaker ryan did and governor romney trying to do say, look, we need a nominee of the republican party who will stand for conservative market-based policies, have forward-looking solutions and

want to build and include more people in the party. they're expressin inging a poin view i think donald trump is not espousing those values, they're trying the best they can to make that point and make that case. >> as donald trump announced today, chris christie will head up this new construction of the architecture of a trump administration would look like. there's been a lot of attention focused on gop policy veterans saying they're not interest in serving in a trump administration. how challenging, you know these folks well, will it be for trump to attract that experienced talent? >> i think it's going to be incredibly challenging, peter. the difficulty, we don't know what donald trump stands for. one minute he's talking about tax relief and next minute, tax increases. he's not saying, look, we will cut taxes a little bit less, he's talking about tax increases. that's conservative and republican policies@th athema.

>> would you at this point serve in a trump administration? >> at this point i don't see myself doing that. >> formerly with the romney/ryan campaign. hope to see you on the campaign. >> every so often we get it right. the mike is back working again. let's go back to this conversation, this decision to pick chris christie for a new role to oversee a trump administration for a trump presidency. is this designed to heal the rift with speaker ryan and other conservatives in the wing of the republican party? >> i'm told this was always supposed to be chris christie's role and known they had an issue with washington and the establish and chris christie has deep ties to washington and a relatively good reputation down there and they believe chris christie would be able to help smooth things over. that being said, since chris

christie joined the donald trump campaign officially, maybe not officially until today, but endorsed him, those ties in washington, i'm told, have wobbled a little bit. there's been some frustration chris christie would sign on with donald trump. that being said there is still a long way to go until we get to july and the convention and potentially get to november and the white house. chris citihristie is in a good position to help donald trump build relationships he hasn't had before and in a good position to explain to him how exactly legislation works and how washington works. he also has jeff sessions in his back pocket for that. the announcement of chris christie's role is certainly good timing, especially when you look at politico today, an article came out and said a number of the a level people who would normally get cabinet positions or other executive office jobs in a white house or

any's administration have said that they will not sign on for donald trump period. so they need somebody who will go in and be able to not only locate the top people but convince them to come over to donald trump. >> katy tur, nice to visit with you right now. in today's microsoft pulse question, we're ask whether you think donald trump's muddled positions will hurt him in the general election. take a look. these are the results this hour. the pulse stays live. 60% say yes. those sort of muddled positions will hurt him in the general election, 40% say no. we hope you will stay a part of this conversation. vote at pulse.msnbc.com and we will have more results later in this hour. next, we will return to our breaking news on this day. the justice department expected to hold a news conference within the next hour, act 3:30 eastern time, this comes after north carolina's governor escalated this feud over the state's

controversial bathroom law just announcing he is suing the federal government. >> right now, the o administration is bypassing congress by attempting to rewrite the law and set basic restroom policies, locker room policies and even shower policies for public and private employers across the country. not just north carolina. i'm still asking the north carolina legislature to reinstate the ability to sue for wrongful termination for discrimination in state court. it how i try to live... how i stay active. so i need nutrition... that won't weigh me down. for the nutrition you want without the calories you don't... try boost® 100 calories. each delicious snack size drink gives you... 25 vitamins and minerals and 10 grams of protein. and it's available in two new flavors, vanilla caramel and double chocolate fudge. i'm not about to swim in the slow lane.

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we're live right now from msnbc, more breaking news from north carolina where the governor doubled down on the

state's controversial bathroom law announcing in the last hour he is suing the federal government. >> the court, rather than a federal agency, should tell our state, our nation and employers across the country what the law requires. let me say something. our nation is one nation, especially when it comes to fighting discrimination, which i support wholeheartedly. ultima ultimately, i think it's time for the u.s. congress to bring clarity to our national anti-discrimination provisions under title 7 and title 9. >> joining me now is our justice correspondent, pete williams. pete, the attorney general, loretta lynch, is going to be speaking in about an hour from now to respond to this lawsuit. give us a better understanding how we got to this place and what we expect to hear from the attorney general within the next hour. >> right. she's going to say she thinks the state is wrong about the law. it started with the law was

passed in march and says that transgender people have to use the bathrooms they were of the sex they were born with, they can't use the bathroom of the gender they identify with. it also cut back on the ability of lbgt people in north carolina to see for discrimination. last week, the justice department sent the governor and the state universities a letter saying you're violating civil rights law. if you insist on enforcing this law you could lose your federal education support and basically made it pretty clear the government had the option of e suing north carolina. well, it gave the governor until today to respond. his response is, see you in court. so the question here is what does civil rights law require? what the governor says that civil rights law provides no protection whatsoever for transgendered people. the civil rights law says you can't discriminate on the basis of sex, you can't engage in sex discriminati discrimination. the government's position is when you make distinctions of

transgender people and others in terms of their bathroom choices you're making a distinction based on sex and you can't do that. the state says the law doesn't have any such provision. interestingly in the news conference, let's get nerdy, the governor mentioned both title 7 of the civil rights act the general you can't discriminate part and title 9, that's the part that says schools cannot discriminate on the bis of sex, if you have a football program for boys, you have to have one for girls. the lawsuit filed today by the governor makes no mention at all of title 9. the government has made a fairly big point of this, pointing out that just a couple weeks ago, a federal appeals court that has jurisdiction over north carolina said it approved of a position of the education department that when schools make a distinction against transgender people, they're violating title 9. that's part of this whole mix. it's not in the lawsuit but it's going to undoubtedly be part of the federal government's response. >> we expect to hear from loretta lynch, the attorney general of the u.s., responding

to this new lawsuit from pat mccrory, the governor of north carolina. that should happen in about an hour. thanks for guiding our way. next former strategist and advisor to bill clinton. in the last hour we heard from the white house press secretary, josh earnest, with the obama administration, he offered their response to this lawsuit. take a listen. >> the position that north carolina government has not changed, they're asserting that this mean spirited law is somehow consistent with the civil rights act and with our values. the president spoke pretty powerfully to the idea that what the state of north carolina passed in a one day special session is inconsistent with the values of fairness and equality and justice, that we hold dear in this country. >> simply put, how should the

justice department respond? >> i think that the justice department has responded up to this point and the obama administration generally up to this point has responded very aggressi aggressively, as they should to try to tell north carolina they have to change the law or suffer the consequences. in my mind, there is no question but that this law is unconstitutional for several reasons. as pete alluded to, pete williams alluded to just now, there are several aspects of this law that clearly violate supreme court rulings or stat e statutes, so the justice department was putting a lot of pressure on north carolina already. i think that the governor in this action today, this offensive action probably felt the best defense, he was under a lot of pressure the best defense was some kind of offensive play. the other thing that north carolina ians and the state legislature and the governor of north carolina who signed this bill have to deal with, their entire rationale for this part

of the law is laughable. the governor says that they passed this law to prevent sexual violence in restrooms but there is not a single reported incident in the entire history of north carolina where a transgender person, proceeding under the guise of anti-discrimination bill committed any kind of act in any bathroom. this is a solution in search of a problem. >> where do you draw the line on this? should all public places be forced to have a third bathroom for transgendered individuals? >> i don't think that's what this is about at all. nothing in the federal government's position suggests that. all the government is saying, that in keeping with title 7 and 9 and supreme court precedent in a case called roemer versus evans, you can't single out a particular group of people for unequal treatment. that this law is a de facto denial of access to restrooms

for transgender people and it is also singing out a class of people for differential treatment based upon their gender. >> richard sock rid des, democratic strategist, former advisor to bill clinton, we appreciate your thoughts on this. thank you. >> thank you. coming up, donald trump and hillary clinton, you will probably hear those two names side by side for a while. things get ugly even if it's not technically yet. trump calling clinton as 18 a e abler of her husband's infidelity. how will this play out with female voters? we will ask that question next. >> nobody in this country and maybe in the history of the country politically was worse than bill clinton with women. he was a disaster. and she was a total enabler. she would go after these women and destroy their lives.

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in your feet or hands, don't suffer in silence! step on up and ask your doctor abt diabetic nerve pain. tell 'em cedric sent you. back now live on msnbc, i'm peter alexander, hillary clinton is beginning this week looking to the general election even as she battles the nomination and heads to kentucky a state bernie sanders is expected to win but clinton is shifting to winning women voters in republican states. she's still taking shots from ther democratic opponent. >> we need to raise the minimum wage not as hillary clinton wants, to 12 bucks an hour, we need to raise it to $15 an hour! we need a president not who voted for the war in iraq, as

secretary clinton did, but one who led the opposition to that i do sass straws war in iraq. that disastrous war in iraq. >> covering the clinton campaign, outside live where hillary clinton is speaking today in virginia. they're going after each other and last hour trump tweeted crooked hillary clinton she got more primary votes than donald trump but i had 17 people to beat, he writes, she had one. how does the clinton campaign fight on these two fronts for the next couple of months? >> reporter: hey, peter, good to talk to you. i think you're seeing this two front strategy play out this week, the fact she's in kentucky tomorrow, that has everything to do fighting the primary battle she's still locked in. you can hear there are some clinton supporters standing on the other side of that camera. you just heard them start sho shouting. today, she is here in virginia. this has to do with the general

election taking on donald trump. that is really her primary focus right now, pushing back against some of the flip-flops he had on on for policy and tax policy in recent days and her tax advisors just had a phone call saying under donald trump taxes would go up on the wealthy, the clinton campaign previewing they will do to donald trump what president obama did to mitt romney, paint him as someone who would be good for the upper class but not necessarily about the middle class. today is about winning over the swing women voters you mentioned so many of them here in this swing county. >> the point is they don't want donald trump to evolve on this issue of taxes. his initial proposal saying it's cuts for everybody including this rich, even as he evolves, they want to pin him down to this original people, correct? >> that is such an important part of the clinton strategy,

exactly what you just mapped out. what you've seen from donald trump is shifting on these policy polisitions and the clinn campaign says they will try to remind voters for his initial statements and make him account for those initial statements. we heard that today on the phone call with some top advisors. that is a strategy you can expect to see in coming weeks and coming months as the general election battle comes into sharper focus. as you started off saying, she is still locked in this primary battle. she has to win more states. top democrats say it's important for her to head into the convention on a strong footing. that means giving up a few more states like kentucky and possibly california. i think you will see her fight for those two states. >> we always share notes privately what we will hear from the two campaigns and now doing it in front of an audience. nice to be with you. >> reporter: nice to be with

you. >> the amount of cash to be spent is expected to hit serious levels here. donald trump campaigned on being self-funded. not so much nominee. bernie sanders persistent attacks on hillary clinton and fund-raising practices are fu funding his unprecedented cash machine. how will the candidates rally support and generate this enormous cash they need for what is already an historical campaign. how much has been spent so far and where this money is coming from. chris. >> to answer your first question is more than ever before. when you think about the numbers we're talking about now into the billi billions. this is unprecedented. when you think about bernie sanders getting all of his money without outside help, with small don donors, nothing ever before like that. we saw barack obama, as you well know, peter, back in 2008, people said he changed the way the internet and social media

could affect a campaign. bernie sanders takes that next step. that doesn't mean everybody is rejecting the tried and trues. we decided to follow the money. >> how good am i? >> the most unpredictable campaign ever is about to become the most expensive campaign ever. piles of money, astonishing 1$12 billion raised so far. where's it all coming from? depends on the candidate. exhibit 1, small donations from lots of people. >> averaging. >> $27! >> this is bernie sanders digital edge war room where 21-year-old pennington built a donor list other candidates lsu after. >> reporter: how many donors and how much money so far? >> we have more than 2$2.2 million and more than 2$210 million as of our last report. >> reporter: a big chunk of sanders money goes here, to the award packed offices of ed garu and ted divine.

>> no one before came into this and said he or she will try to raise money almost exclusively from low dollar donors and do it from such a massive scale. that's incredible. >> reporter: could it be replicated quickly say by a donald trump? >> i think trump will try to replicate it, i don't know if he will succeed. >> reporter: and number two, party on. with george clooney at exclusive parties. >> it is an obscene amount of money. >> reporter: and the done nar pack. >> money buys you the opportunity to make your case. doesn't guarantee the case will work. >> reporter: which bregs us to exhibit 4, donald trump, king of free media, $36 million came out of his own pocket, a loan to himself. most of his airtime was free. with the general election exp t expected to cost 3 to $4 billion overall, what does trump do now? >> do i want to sell a couple of

buildings and self-fund? i don't know i want to do that necessa necessarily. >> reporter: the likely answer, trump may do some of all of the above. so likely would hillary clinton. she of course had a head start on him with her fund-raising. he is getting organized now with the help of a good friend of his who has a hedge fund. peter. >> so the money pours in once again. chris jansing. thank you very much. >> it does indeed. coming up, we return to donald trump's changing position for taxes for the wealthy. a shift in position and shift in tone? we will break it all down as he tries to extend an olive branch for the establish. grover norquist, president of americans for tax reform will join us next after this break. . she said "jen, go pro with crest pro-health advanced." advance to healthier gums... ...and stronger teeth from day one. using crest toothpaste and mouthwash makes my...

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back in september, donald trump then a candidate among the crowded republican field unveiled his huge tax plan and called for an overhaul of the tax code that would eliminate

income taxes for millions of americans while lowering them for the highest income owners and businesses. during an interview with chuck todd on "meet the press" this weekend, trump opened the door for a potential increase for the wealthy. let's head out west where we find msnbc jake walking in always regal beverly hills, california. good morning. what are the people telling you there? >> reporter: what's up, peter? i like to keep it regal in beverly hills. most of the people here i think would like to have their taxes low, at least the wealthy ones on the republican side of the aisle. donald trump's comments on "meet the press" with chuck raised eyebrows here, none more, i guess you could say or maybe not so much, larry king, i ran into him, the tv legend out here on the streets of beverly hills. here's what he told me what donald trump said to chuck. larry, you've known donald a lodge time.

yesterday, he told chuck on "meet the press," sounds like he would be open to raising taxes on the wealthy. >> hasn't he said that before? >> his original tax plan was give a massive tax break to the top .1% and said it might go up a little bit. >> i thought he said earlier he would raise taxes. he never talked about it before? >> he talks about it as negotiating point and now in the negotiations he might go up a little bit on the rich. how do you think that will sit with people in beverly hills? >> first of all, they should pay more. let's be honest, the rich don't have it bad. you know, everybody says the rich, we have to care about the ri rich, republicans. they're wrong in this case. we have unequal pay in america. the middle class gets screwed. that's why bernie sanders tou touched a lot of nerves. >> your fellow brooklynite. >> you know something interesting, jacob, most jewish guys from brooklyn went to miami

beach, bernie went to vermont. i think donald, he's running as a populist. not really running as a true republican, he's running against the establish. it wouldn't be surprising if he said, maybe the rich should pay a little more. the rich don't win elections. >> reporter: what a guy to run into on the streets of beverly hills, peter. he said, the rich don't have it bad, larry king said and donald trump essentially echoed that message. that's what i think the majority of americans think as well. whether or not donald trump meant what he said to chuck todd -- audio difficulty -- >> from beverly hills, jacob, thank you very much. we want to take your view others to loudoun county, virginia, hillary clinton speaking about the campaign. >> i'm very interested in

hearing what all of you might have to say. i have a couple of people with me who worked with me a long time and thankfully are still helping me. ann o'leary standing right there. ann is an expert in children's and women's issues. she's worked with me ever since the white house in the '90s and worked with me in the senate. she's a mom with two of her own kids and lives all of this stress and challenge. then, jan klein, who's there, also started working for me, i confess to child labor, started working for me at the white house back in the '90s and been part of my extended team for a long time on a lot of these issues as well. she's a mom with three kids, one of whom is now 19. so she's facing new challenges with older kids. [ laughter ] >> so i -- marsha is here somewhere a great friend of mine also worked with me on these

issues. they all live in d.c. and why they're here. >> we've been listening to hillary clinton in loudoun county, virginia, the focus today on independents and republicans that hillary clinton thinks she can pick off in a swing portion of the state of virginia which could be another purple battleground coming up. i want to invite grover norquist, the president and founder of americans for tax reform joining us live. thanks for your time. >> sure. >> you say you've endorsed trump's promise to endorse across the board tax cuts but your own organization americans for tax reform asks for republican candidates to sign a no new taxes pledge. trump say, for the wealthy, fra frankly, it's going to go up and it really should go up. on cnn, trump clarified a bit. take a listen. >> i said that i may have to increase the section -- by the way, everybody across the board, businesses, everybody's getting a tax cut, especially the middle

class. and i said i may have to increase it on the wealthy. i'm not going to allow it to be increased on the middle class. now, if i increase it on the wealthy, that means they're still going to be paying less than they're paying now. i'm not talking about increasing from this point, increasing from my tax proposal. >> there's definitely been a shift in tone if not an actual position. what do you do about that? are you satisfied donald trump is calling for tax cuts across the board right now? >> well, yes. if you read donald trump's tax plan, taking the business taxes to make us internationally competitive, which we're not now at 35, with the european average of 25, he brings that down to 11. he takes the individual rates to 10, 15 and 25. significant cuts across the board. i saw both the interview with ste stephanopoulos and chuck todd. he was very clear. he said he might have to negotiate some changes in his tax plan. of course he will, he's the

president, not congress. he will be negotiating with paul ryan and mitch mcconnell, neither of whom will be advoc e advocating tax increases. >> understood. as the republican standard bearer, at best he's being flexible, at worse, being contradictory. on the "today" show he was asked in real terms last month will you raise taxes on the wealthy. he said, yes, we should raise taxes on the wealthy, including me. can you live with trump being this way? is he trying to be cute? trying to signal a huge policy shift? what's going on here. >> no. look. stephanopoulos and todd were both trying to get him to say something he wasn't saying and they kept asking the same question different ways. he made it very clear he was talking about negotiating from his dramatic tax cut. the challenge that hillary clinton has and why she think s this is interesting to focus on she's endorsed taxes on the lowest income americans. she endorsed taxing soda pop on poor people in pittsburgh, philadelphia, rather. she said she would sign a tax on

everybody, a wage tax, if it got to her, which is a position she said she wouldn't at the beginning of the administration. she originally said she was only going to tax rich people and now she's willing to tax everybody including people with soda pop. >> to be very clear, hillary clinton, they put out some folks that support her campaign, gene sperling the former head of the national economic council a short time ago, they want to make it very clear to the audien audiences, this is exactly what donald trump wants to do, don't allow him to evolve on this position he will slash taxes for the ultra rich, correct? >> and hillary clinton wants people to forget that she said she would raise taxes on everyone through wage tax, which originally in the campaign she said she wouldn't, but under pressure from the left, bernie sanders, she said she would sign it. she came out for a 25% tax on guns. she's now going to be running in west virginia and pennsylvania and kentucky. this is not a position that she likes to highlight but she has been public about it. it's in her senate testimony.

and now soda pop. this is a woman who will tax any and everyone. she always wants to talk about something other than the fact that she hasn't met a tax she doesn't like. >> let me focus on donald trump for a moment. >> i know. that's what hillary wants. yeah. >> i want to focus because you obviously this is important to your organization. >> so is hillary's position. >> has he signed a taxes pledge? >> his campaign says they have. we don't have it yet. until it's up -- he has stated a position which is the pledge itself. but until we actually have it, we don't count it as a pledge. that goes up for everyone to see. the pledge isn't to americans for tax reform, it tease the american people. >> understood. donald trump also appears to be signaling he would default on the national debt, renegotiate it. his language has sort of changed in he way he casts this. are you comfortable with that, which economists say in effect imperil the financial system around the world? >> of course, what the democrats have done over the years going

back to jimmy carter and others is to repudiate much of the national debt through inflation. that's not a good idea, what we ought not to do. we need to have pro growth policies. we've been growing at 2% a year since the bottom of this recession. during the reagan years, same time period, from the bottom of that recession, 4% a year. if we'd have grown at reagan levels. >> i'd be the guy that prints the bills, right? isn't he calling for the same position? >> president of the united states is not the guy that prints the bills. that is done by the fed. the congress has to pass the spending bills that would get you in that trouble. if you had a republican president with a house and senate, this is what ryan and he are going to be talking about, how do you get control of spe spending, which we haven't been able to do with the present president, with obama. >> grover norquist, nice to visit with you, thanks for your time. we appreciate it. >> absolutely. >> an update on microsoft's p l polls question, will donald trump's muddle positions hurt

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