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how is he responding for calls for him to drop out. >> and showering trump with cold hard cash. >> and it's a $10 billion defines. what's at stake in texas' bathroom decree battle with the white house? >> this does not add any additional requirements to any school district or state under the applicable law. >> we will not be blackmailed by the president's 30 pieces of silver, we will not sell out our children to the government. >> it good to be with you. i'm frances rivera in for alex witt. ted cruz may be out of the race but he's still very much in the fray. he appeared on a popular texas radio show to offer a warning for donald trump supporters.

>> everyone who is responsible for the rise of donald trump, they will bear that responsibility going forward, but there were more than a few players who played a disproportionate role in that rise. and i'm going to focus instead of looking backwards, i'm going to focus on looking forwards. >> the former candidate's father, raphael, was confirmed as one of 155 delegates. and i believe that we can unite around a belief that it can't be business as usual. it can't be status quo. and that's more than anything what donald trump represents. he represents that he's coming here to -- yeah, to be a disrupter. and that's where i believe that

a lot of our members also agree that it can't be business as usual. >> the washington congresswoman has invited trump to address the entire gop but the two haven't yet agreed on a date. >> and the presumptive nominee has won the coveted endorsement of sheldon ad delson. >> bernie sanders is campaigning in kentucky today, even as more democrats are calling on him to drop out of the race. chris jansing is covering sanders. i know that sanders has a rally later on in kentucky tonight. what can we expect to hear from him? can we expect those large crowds once again to follow? >> reporter: he's going to be in bowling green. thousands of people coming out, for examples as they did last night, 2,200 people in grand forks, despite the fact that the

temperatures were in the 40s and, yes, it was an outdoor event and bernie sanders actually put on a coat, something we don't normally see. but there are, his argument will be, eight states still in the district of columbia. yes, he's done the math. some would say it's like mount everest for him to get to the number of pledged delegates he says he needs to go into the convention and really make a play for super delegates. he believes he can draw a clean delineation between him and hillary clinton still, things that he believes are important to progressives. so we put together kind of a mash up from north dakota last night that lays out some of the differences between these two democratic candidates. take a listen. >> it's not only good enough to talk the talk, you got to walk the walk. secretary clinton thinks we should raise the minimum wage,

she does, to 12 bucks an hour. that ain't good enough! we have got to raise the minimum wage to $15 an hour. i voted against the war in iraq. secretary clinton supported that war. i believe we have got to ban fracking. [ cheers ] secretary clinton when she was secretary of state actually pushed the fracking technology on countries around the world. >> reporter: so to the key question, bernie sanders staying in the race, going after hillary clinton, is it hurting democrats' chances against drumm? he will make the argument he came in with no money, no name recognition, he started to bring out very quickly thousands of

people, raised record amounts of money from small donors. it's no doubt it's been a distraction for hillary clinton when she wants to pivot to the general election. she's coming here to kentucky with events on sunday and among, something she almost really would not have done if bernie sanders was not still in the race. having said that, we have seen the pivot, her starting to build up her campaign in key states like michigan and there's a new ad she put out against donald trump. >> new suggestions from the reporter in the 1991 audio interview by someone who claims to be donald trump's publicist. some claim he posed at his own

publicist. now some are speculating trump may be behind the leak. jacob, what more can you tell us, especially the belief that it was trump himself to leaked that audio to "the washington post." >> reporter: this is what she says -- first, "the washington post" says they got the tape from a source who got the tape from a reporter, sue causewell. the roarer said she never gave the tape to anybody. she said she lost she speculates the only place it could have come from was trump. >> i think trump is behind letting this go. >> why? >> why does donald trump do anything that he does? >> why is this important? >> well, it's one thing to punk me about his love life but to punk the nation is another thing. >> the tape itself is a man

named john miller who says he's donald trump's publicist talking to this reporter about trump's love life and other things. it came after a barrage of negative media coverage about his divorce. this in 1991. a reporter says that later trump admitted he and john miller are the same person and he even apologized to her and tried to make it up to her. now he says he's lying when he denied it to the "today" show. we should move on and talk about other support -- many in the gop establishment have gotten behind him. others, like speaker paul ryan, are still deciding. frances? >> i want to bring in congressional reporter for the hill molly hooper and betsy

woodruff. i appreciate you being with me. molly, what do you make of this whole audiotape story, especially knowing there were some positive parts of him coming out of the gop meeting with the other gop leaders as well, and then you have this, a and. >> personally, i think it's kind of funny. i think a lot of lawmakers on capitol hill were wishing they were their own spokesman under a different name. i think it adds to the perception of donald trump as unpredictable. lawmakers don't know him professionally. he's not a professional politician. it just sort of adds to that narrative. it's one of the reasons you'll see lawmakers coming out in support of donald trump but not necessarily officially and wholeheartedly endorsing him. i think that the meeting he had on capitol hill this past week showed a very different side of

trump, the one that people talk about in the press is always so different behind closed doors. well, a source who is close to individuals in that meeting with with the house leader said, man, that seemed absolutely true to me. trump was engaging, he was interested and he listened. that's huge. it went a long way. >> you also have concerns coming out of this meeting of not only policy but tone but also skeletons in the closet, more things that may come out, just like this audiotape from '91. will there be more coming out do you think sp. >> without a doubt. trump's been a public figure for decades. there's a mass amount of information to be dug up about him. more and more reporters are single mindedly focused on

finding little nuggets like this. look, this story about the audio, which forensic investigators say is in fact his voice, it's really funny and it undergirds a central democratic point in this election, which is the argument they make that trump is a buffoon. it's a really big challenge for trump, for reince and it's a challenge for house republicans and senate republicans who don't want him to damage their down ballot. >> some of the headlines may be shared, especially with this "new york times" article coming out, how donald trump behaved with women in private and you count the numerous women who accounted appropriate behavior from donald trump way back in the 90s. but let's talk about now. when it comes to the vice president and who donald trump will share this ticket is and how crucial that is, in bridging gaps where maybe the gop and establishment see he's lacking,

betsy, talk a little bit about that. and you were saying when it comes to an article you wrote that some of the gop will learn to love him whether they're comfortable with him or not. >> they're making peace with him pretty quickly. for the most part, the fact in a kathy mcmorris rogers says she'll support him, that's a huge deal. the fact that she as a womans that sends a signal there's not going to be a third party candidate. i thought paul ryan's tone on thursday was really striking. he was overwhelmingly optimis c optimistic. even though ryan isn't ready to formally endorse trump, he sounded quite different than he did about two weeks ago when he said, no, he wasn't endorsing him. establish republicans and d.c. leaders are saying if we can't

beat him, we might as well join him. >> molly, you spoke with some republican lawmakers who are now backing trump about that meeting. we what exactly was exchanged based on some of the republican leaders you've spoken with? >> this is actually kind of funny. one leader told me this first meeting is like the first meeting of an arranged marriage. the meeting went well, it went better than anybody hoped but nobody's in love with anybody yet. again, these laughs don't know trump on a professional basis. they doesn't know how serious he is about his politics. they haven't worked with him on that level. and keep in mind each one of these lawmakers is fighting to keep their own seat in the house. and paul ryan's main mission is to mack sure he retains control of the house of representatives.

going into this, the fact that trump sat back and really listened, and that's the key word that's been in almost every article i've seen about these meetings, the ones that even his early supporters who met with him several months ago said the one striking thing was donald trump, the bombastic guy on the trail, he actually sat back and listened and was quiet. that was huge for them. the tone he set was the tone that's going to be set going forward. and one lawmaker pointed out this was going to happen no matter what happened. if the republicans came out of a contested convention, tempers were going to it's sorts of a blessing in disguise because now they have a few weeks before the convention, they don't want to, quote, fake unity as paul ryan has said and they can learn to live with each other for better

or for worse. >> you said it struck you how he sat back and listened, according to your source in this meeting. certainly there's a little bit of a bulls eye with elizabeth warren, with the goofy goofus, calling her a fraud. and she's fighting back as well. and she's being floated as a potential running mate for hillary clinton. is that something we can see? >> it's interesting she's inserted herself into this presidential racial. thus far she's kept an extreme wi will. >> now that trump's the nominee, i think we're getti a preview. that's a change for her. speaking of tone, she's gone on the offense and sending a signal to other democrats as far as how she thinks they ought to be going after trump, focusing on the way he's treated rim in the

past, focusing on the argument that they make that bigotry is a sen central -- if you look at the way democrats criticize trump, there's two schools of thought. one school of thought is this guy's a goofball, he's a buffoon, he's a joke, let's send out e-mails with subject lines making fun of the fact his name is donald. the other school of thought is this man is extremely dangerous, an incredible candidate and we have to be worried about him. hillary had an e-mail when she said trump could actually beat us. the fact that elizabeth warren is in that second school of thought i of course his

republican primary contenders found out the perils of underestimating this guy. i think elizabeth warren is leading the democratic pushback, setting the tone for what the next general months of the general election are going to look like. >> thank you to both of you. thank you for the interesting conversation. good to have your perspective on it this afternoon. >> this afternoon alex witt will be talking to ben carson. >> a young transgender child just wants to be who he wants to be. his mom will join us to share jacob's story. up next, a former civil rights attorney for the department of justice explains why he opposes the objectives and what states rights have to defy it. ♪

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backlash today against the obama administration's guidance that calls for schools to allow transgenders students to use the bathroom associated with how they identify their gender. >> the president is getting involved how he should not get involved, in the middle of the night, in secret, without congress, without input from the education community. he's forcing this divisive and harmful policy. >> there is a strong desire on the part of some politicians to try and score some cheap political points. >> joining me now to talk about this is roger severino, the

director of the center for religion and civil society at the heritage foundation. i appreciate you being with me, roger. and the obama administration is basically saying critics of this are playing politics. are you playing politics? >> this is a great abuse of power by the obama administration. when congress banned sex discrimination in 1962, they were acting to protect girls and women. this new law is trying to turn its law on its head by saying men should have unfettered access to girls and women's bathrooms. the administration is pulling out the pen and the phone to unilaterally rewrite the law when you do not have support of the american public. this is an abuse of power. >> for those pushing for lgbt

rights say it's not men, because in their mind, in their hearts they do not believe they're the sex that they were born with. >> if they want to amend federal laws, you should try to amend federal laws. you convince people of your views and pass a law. if you want to protect gender identity, you pass a law. we live and you constitution, not under a monarchy. the president is trying to reassert unilateral power. the states are pushing back against this federal overreach. >> let me clarify this with you. would you say that your opposition is just based on the fact that the administration didn't consult with congress or with educators as well, or would you say that there's something behind it as far as morally or

religious beliefs or even privacy issues is fueling your opposition? >> it's multiple levels. we have a policy now that has worked for decades. school districts have provided unisex facilities. they're saying boys must be allowed unfettered access to girls' bathroom. >> many will say, new yoo, it's boys. these are transgender people who, again, do not identify with the gender given them at birth. i want to ask you when i spoke earlier today with a principal from kentucky, talking about how his school and district handled this and having their own policy. >> have sought our help in assuring that they were being served properly in the school or have transitioned while they're at school have come to us so

that we're making sure that they're getting the right help both in the classroom and outside of the classroom. >> the principal said even before this director from the obama administration that they basically put his policy in place similar to that, supporting that. didn't seem to be an issue there for that principal, for that school. >> we shouldn't have a one size fits all federal policy imposed on the entire nation. the policy is entirely subjective, it's gender identity based on self-identification. there are now 60 different gender identities. it's hard to judge where some laws are going to be drawn. they should be free to address it at the local level, however, we don't need a federal rule saying boys must be allowed in the girls' locker room -- >> sir, i keep referring to it as boy. >> if they're biologically boys, they're going to be allowed in

girls rest rooms. >> there are many who would beg to argue with at ththat. >> i want to ask you your take on this one, a family we've been following here. this is mimi lemay, featured on "nightly news" last night. her son is transgender. >> reporter: for kids like jacob, the guidance that students should use the bathroom of their gender identity isn't some abstract policy, his mom says it's protection for him at school and validation his rights matter. >> when i send jacob off to school, i want to make sure he's treated like any other student, that he can use the facilities he's comfortable with. >> what do you say to the lemays, who only want a safe and inclusive environment for these kids. >> the north carolina law allows

for options as well. what the obama administration is saying that they must allow people the access to the bathroom of their choice and in this example the people who disagree with it, they're the ones who are going to be punished. for example, adf has sued 50 students outside of chicago who do not feel safe -- there are many victims of sexual assault who will feel uncomfortable having a biological male changing in front of them. >> it can also reversed, roger. for those who are transgender, say i am a transgender boy and then they're having to go to a girls' bathroom, he may not feel safe. >> right. people who don't feel safe shouldn't be made to feel unsafe. that's the issue here. we have 22,000 registered sex

offenders in north carolina. north carolina acted out of interest of safety to make sure their women and girls are not abused. this is a real issue. this is not an an issue dealing with transcendtransgender issue about men who will abuse any law -- >> it is also when it comes to civil rights, it is also for those who identify with a certain sex being able and feeling safe going into the bathroom that they feel is appropriate for them. thank you very much, roger severino. thank you for your perspective. i appreciate it. >> still to come, we'll hear from the mother of the transgender boy you saw about why the issue is so important. that's coming up in about 20 minutes.

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of the public's business? we'll get reaction to that from libertarian presidential candidate gary johnson and talk to him about his third party hopes.

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there's nothing like making their day. except making sure their tomorrow is taken care of too. financial guidance while you're mastering life. om chase. so you can. welcome back. i'm frances rivera in for alex witt here at msnbc headquarters here in new york. as donald trump runs for president, he continues to face questions. >> it's none of your business. i fight very hard to pay as little tax as possible. >> do you believe voters have a right to see your tax returns before they make a decision? >> no, i don't. when the audit ends, i'm going to present them. it should be before the election. i hope it's before the election.

>> our legal correspondent ari melber discussed why he would want to keep those returns private. >> the audit excuse is something that donald trump has put forward but isn't really relevant in terms of running for president because obviously you put out all kinds of stuff that normally other people, private citizens, would not. we also ask presidential candidates by tradition to put out medical information, which is known for most people to be private and no one's business, but when you run for office, the expectation is you give some of that up. i've spoken to some lawyers who have said not to put out a lot during an audit because the numbers you put out there could be incorrect. that's for normal tax clients. donald trump is not a normal client. he's running for the most

important job in the world and every other candidate in the modern era in both parties when they're the nominee have put these out there. he's doing something politically that he's done throughout the campaign, which is test the system, test the standards and say i don't care if you do it that way and test whether that will give voters pause. >> and he went on to say if he does release those taxes, it will be a fact check like he really hasn't experienced as of yet. >> joining me is governor gary johnson. i appreciate you being here with me. we look ahead to dronald trump, he has admitted to paying very little taxes, do you think his

taxes really matter to the majority of voters and if so why? >> i just agree with everything that i heard prior to coming on. you are running for the president of the united states so release those returns. i have a suspicion that because his wealth is tied up in real estate that he probably makes -- he's probably taxed at zero. that's just a guess because of the write-offs that exist with regard to real estate investments and, you know, that's one of those inequities that are out there. it's a really big break when it comes to real estate and there's a really big lobby out there to perpetuate that and donald trump takes advantage of that. that's not to be negative on donald trump. investing in real estate from a tax standpoint is a good investment. >> how did you go about it. you ran for president after being governor of new mexico. what were your feelings as far as why it was important to do so and was there any hesitation on

your part releasing them? >> well, no. like i said, i think that it should be transparent. that is something i think that needs to exist. it isn't just tax returns. it's campaign finance reform. just make it 100% transparent. these super pacs, they're completely nontransparent. i don't think there should be limits on campaign contributions, but let's just know who's contributing money. >> when you hear donald trump say in that interview it's none of your business as far as knowing the taxes and the people, the public don't have a right to know. >> well, don't have a right to know if you're a private citizens but running for president of the united states, you kind of got to open the book up and just let people be the judge of that. but that's my opinion. yeah, he's pushing the limits on everything. but he's not a private citizen anymore really. he's running for president of the united states. >> i want to talk about this and your third party run here.

it's your second team running at libertarian. we're looking here at the favorability of donald trump and hillary clinton in a moment. an election here, even with bernie sanders in a mix, looking ahead to the johnsgeneral elect what is it at this point that you can offer that may get the attention of some of the voters out there who really aren't leaning one way or the other with trump or clinton? >> well, i think i'm the best -- i'm a unique package that i think really contains the best of what democrats are supposed to be about and contains what republicans are supposed to be the best about. and i'm talking now about small government, being fiscally responsible and socially liberal. look, government tries to do too much. in that process it taxes too much, it takes money away from me that i could be spending on my own life, enjoying my own

freedom and liberty. and then on the social side, look, i think that individuals should be able to make decisions in their own lives that only affect their own lives, as long as those decisions don't put others in harm's way. i think that that's a unique package that really doesn't exist with arguably the two most polarizing figures in american politics today. >> when it comes to the favorability as we just were looking at it, shows the hillary clinton at 49%, donald trump at 41%. if we go out there and ask some of these voters, hey, what's your thought about this guy, libertarian candidate gary johnson, people say who? what? what would you say to that? >> that's the reality. that's what's happening. i would not be doing this, frances, if there weren't the opportunity to win but the only opportunity i have of winning is to be in the presidential

debates. i think it's important to point out that the libertarian party is going to be the only party on the ballot in all 50 states. i hope to be the libertarian nominee. if that is the case, i'm going to be the only presidential third-party candidate on the ballot in all 50 states. >> for those who argue it may be too late, you're saying it's time for a debate at this point, we're seeing people and their opinions being molded by donald trump, bernie sanders, hillary clinton out there and wouldn't that be too late for you? >> no, not to be in the general election presidential debates, no. >> i mean overall, to get the traction, to get the moment testimo -- momentum to win. >> for me to be in the presidential debates, i have to be polled right now. i was in a national poll one month ago and polled at 11% against hillary and trump.

i'll readily admit, if donald duck would have been the third name in that poll, donald probably would have polled at 30% but donald duck is not on the ballot in all 50 states, i am. >> what are the chances you are going to be in those polls and what will it take? >> i think what it takes is people do want a cheer chos. where's that reputation? i happen to think it's libertarian, it's just that people don't know it. it's an issue of being in the polls, an issue of polling at 15%, which is what the presidential debate commission says you need to be to be in the general election presidential debates. what do the two parties have to fear about another voice talking about issues in a way that i think is reflective of most people's views, fiscally responsible, socially liberal

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a pushback today against president obama's sweeping changes to accommodate transgender students. here's a report from "nightly news." >> in texas, he can keep his 30 pieces of silver. we will not yield to blackmail. >> and outside chicago 51 families are suing a school district for allowing a transgender student to use the girl's bathroom. >> these parent and students feel intimidated by their school districts. >> joining me is mimi lemay.

she's the mom of a 6-year-old boy, jacob. have you had a chance to see me interview from roger severino from the heritage foundation. he had some choice words i'm really interested to hear your take. for now let's listen to what he said. >> you convince the people of your views and get congress to pass a law. the laws passed in 1964 and '72 when they banned sex discrimination, they meant sex based on biology. if you want to protect gender identity, pass a law. we live under a constitution, not a monarchy. the president is trying to reassert unilateral power when the constitution does not allow him. >> you heard him say it also boys down to safety of people, of victims of sexual assault. in some sense some may say why are you likening transgender

people to even predators. when you heard that conversation, the spirited discussion, what were your thoughts knowing if you were having this conversation with roger, he would be referring to your son jacob as she. >> so roger needs to learn what being transgender is about. there's a lot of resources out there for him and anyone else who wants to learn. being transgender is not a mental disease. it's a disconnect between the brain gender and the anatomical sex. frequently what happens is something called gender dysphoria, which is a state of distress, but that can be mitigated by a transition. so those students who have transitions bravely and authentically, coming back to school in their authentic identity, are now doing what is best for their mental health and arguably best for the society around them. >> but then you have this directive that i'm sure you're

praising as well, you know, for these public schools across the country in high schools for now, people like jacob will be able to use boys' pushback. especially we're hearing from sum superintendents and the lieutenant governor in texas and some are saying it's our job to protect these students. when you say protect, does that imply there's a threat there? and would that threat in their minds they see that threat is somebody like your son jacob, your response? >> my response is that there are 18 states, for example, that have already passed public accommodations laws that refer to, you know, that allow transgender people to use the bathrooms that they want, adults and children and many states have already passed these including massachusetts in education systems so that my son can use the bathroom of his gender identity and there have been no incidents. the incidents have occurred bullying against transgender students. those are the people that have most to be worried about.

i came here today prepared to speak very excitedly and happily about the directive. but i opened my facebook page this morning, and i saw something which broke my heart. and i want to share it with you. >> please do. >> it was a post from another mom in a parent group of transgender children. and the post read and give me a minute here because it's pretty distressing. it read my daughter took her life today. my heart will never be the same. there are real world consequences to the bullying and harassment that is going on in schools against transgender students. when you tell a transgender girl who is a girl in her heart, in her soul and every fabric of her being that she has to be segregated from the students either to use a different bathroom entirely or has to be forced to be humiliated by going into the boys room and possibly harassed and bullied by it, you

are telling her that she is not valued and she's not seen. what the obama administration did this week is tell transgender people and students across the country that they are seen, that they are valued, that they will be protected. and i can't tell you how thankful families like me are. i hope that no other child ever takes their life for this reason. >> i have to ask you given that and you have the states that are resisting. you have texas, arkansas, mississippi, and even some strong words saying, you know, this directive belongs in the shredder. and then you even have some language like blackmail when it comes to president obama holding back federal funding. when you hear that coming out of these states, especially when there is some progress coming out of your own state, massachusetts, just recently as yesterday. is there a sense of, yes, there is progress moving forward, but then it's not coming as easily -- or as smoothly as you would hope? >> i think there's definitely progress. and i think we're going to

continue making progress, and i'm in general very, very hopeful about this. i think the pushback is coming from fear. fear that a reactionary way of life and morays and thoughts about people who are gay or transgender or somehow don't fit into the box people are comfortable with, i think it's the social change that's creating this reaction. and i believe that the justice will prevail and that we will begin to expand our idea of humanity and civil rights and include all people. >> i have to ask you, we followed your story along with jacob. jacob is in kindergarten about to wrap up his first year of kindergarten. i know this is a school where everybody identifies him as just jacob. how's he doing very quickly? >> he's doing wonderfully. he's one of the top students in the class. happy kid. he has friends. he's delightful. >> all right. >> except when he's not that's a normal kid. >> i was going to say as classic

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