works better or feels better. clinically proven helioplex® ovides unbeatable uva/uvb protection to help prevent early skin aging and skin cancer all with a clean light feel. for unbeatable protection. it's the one. the best for your skin. ultra sheer®. neutrogena®. see what's possible. excuse me, bartender, do you mind if i just have one more drink with my old, very old, kind of dangerously old friend, bernie. >> sure, mrs. clinton.

what should i get for you two? >> i'll have a beer. a new brand people are flocking to. something refreshing and revolutionary. something that draws huge crowds. >> and i'll have whatever beer no one likes but gets the job done. oh, bernie, you should be proud, you know? you ran a damned good campaign. >> i'm running a good campaign. >> but don't worry, i promise, i'm going to have a very special role for you in my administration. how would you like to be -- wait for it -- the senator from vermont? >> oh, hillary, i'll miss that lack of charm. >> and good morning. >> and he wouldn't leave the bar. like, last call. he said -- >> he won't leave the bar. he's that guy. >> he is that guy. >> good morning. your alarm's going off. it's monday. >> a sports alert awfully early. >> may 23rd. >> with us on set, managing editor of "bloomberg politics"

and "with all due respect" that airs at 6:00 on msnbc. >> mark, how are you doing? >> very good. thank you for asking. like america, i'm in a dead heat. >> and then jon meacham. >> i think an apology might be an order. do you think? >> i think so. >> the entire "b" block will be an apology. >> i owe him one. >> i think america is waiting. >> it might be me. it just might be. i'll let you do it. >> you always brings up shade's rebellion and we make fun of you nonstop. >> because it's so boring. >> and this weekend, i had no choice, when i was writing an op-ed in "the washington post," alexander's warning to 2016 voters. and i'll be damned if -- >> it didn't all turn on shay's rebellion. >> history's not boring, it's important. >> it's vindication. >> i think you should lead the apology. >> there's a lot of value in the

history that you bring to the table. it's just sometimes you weave it in -- >> we don't need it. >> it's just, you know, get to the point. also with us, msnbc political analyst and professor at the university of michigan school of public policy, former democratic congressman, harold -- >> never have that problem with me weaving in important -- >> no, no, no. that's your strength. >> the post-revolution fervor was broken by -- fever was broken by -- >> i could read this dramatically. >> so a lot going on. let's just say one thing off the top, though. >> i thought we just did. >> donald trump, people said that donald trump couldn't win the nomination and then they said, he couldn't grow. said he couldn't rise above, like twitter wars, right? >> mm-hmm. >> and i think he proved everybody wrong this weekend. he delivered what i think is akin to the second gettysburg address -- i mean, lincoln's second inaugural.

>> i see, this is sarcasm. >> "cnn is so negative, getting even worse as i get closer. just had two anti-trump losers with zero rebuttal from my team. turning off!" >> mark halperin, i would have laughed two months ago. has anybody notified this guy he's about to lock down the nomination and going into a general election mode -- why is he doing these mindless twitter feuds on saturday afternoon? >> why won't let you let trump be trump, joe? >> because that trump loses in a general election. i've said it. maybe i'm dead wrong. what works in a republican primary and gains votes in a republican primary often loses votes in the general election. and sort of this, this battling. who wants a president that's going to be entering tweet wars with everybody, repeatedly? like, "the washington post" on friday wrote some column saying, oh, the "morning joe" trump feud

is over. i'm like, there's a feud? he's just like shooting all-around, nonstop. tell me. are there people around him and in washington that are concerned that he continues to engage in twitter wars? >> no, i mean, look, going after the press has served him well, so, i agree with you that there are some things that probably he's done that won't help him. but going after the press has served him well. it has. >> you think it's okay for him going into -- you think americans will want to elect a president who is engaging in twitter wars on a saturday afternoon? >> the two polls over the weekend suggest that this is going to be an election about who the country doesn't want. >> right. and so -- so jon meacham, if, perhaps, you released a policy position and started showing consistency on your policy positions, instead of trading them out like we used to trade

baseball cards, wouldn't that be a better way to spend a saturday afternoon? >> well, i mean, i think that a lot of -- >> maybe i'm dead wrong here. >> i think you're right, that it's a -- it's not what you would think of as a conventional presidential temperament, but everything about the last ten months suggests that conventional presidential temperament may not work well, as you say, at least, in the primary. as mark says, 29% of a favorable review of him in one of the polls over the weekend, with 35 for hillary, something like that. so that's a bright flashing light for him. >> a lot of times -- >> i'm sorry, the question is, the much-vaunted pivot. when does that happen? >> i haven't seen it. and i think that's the problem. i mean, harold ford, festering resentments play very well in primaries, especially on the right and on the left.

but when you get to the general election, this is like politics 101, at some point you have to be seen as growing and at least moderating temperamentally, don't you? >> you do. but he won't stop doing this until he's punished in the polls. and if the weekend polling, this snapshot is to be believed, it hasn't begun to affect him in a punishing way. so i would join with john and halperin aren't that far apart, but this is unconventional, he's an unconventional candidate, people didn't think he would be there, so if you're him, you continue to do this until you're hit. and if you're mrs. clinton, you say, we can tempt this guy. we can bring him to a point where we can demonstrate to the country forcefully and convincingly that he does not have the temperament to be president. but until he's punished, he'll continue to do this. >> and saturday tweets will be overrun by a selection of his running mate and the convention and the debates. >> does he keep tweeting after that? >> i don't think it matters. if he gets those things right, i

think the dog whistles are targeted for audiences. >> and they're really excited about newt gingrich? do you think that's a great selection? >> i still do not believe that's going to happen. >> let's actually look at the numbers. maybe he knows what he's doing. with 5 1/2 months to go before the presidential election, new polls the this weekend show the race is neck and neck with donald trump narrowing hillary clinton's national lead. the new nbc/"wall street journal" poll shows clinton's 11-point lead in april is now just 3 points, 46 to 43%, within the margin of error, this as "the washington post"/abc poll puts trump slightly ahead of clinton with the race effectively tied, 46-44%, an 11-point shift in trump's favor. plus, the cbs news ugov. poll shows clinton and trump in a dead heat in critical must-win states. in florida, 43% for clinton and 42%. and in ohio, clinton has a

five-point lead. >> my campaign is not going to let donald trump try to normalize himself in this period. if we don't respond to donald trump, which i am doing, as you have seen. i said he is unqualified to be president. i believe that deeply, i'm going to keep focused on donald trump, because i will be the nominee. i will be running against donald trump in the fall. and i do not want americans and, you know, good-thinking republicans, as well as democrats and independents, to start to believe that this is a normal candidacy. it isn't. >> meanwhile, donald trump and hillary clinton are already making history, as the nbc/"wall street journal" poll's most unpopular likely presidential nominees ever. only 34% of registered voters have a positive opinion of clinton. 54% have a negative opinion. a new rating of minus 20 points.

trump is down even lower. 29 percent have a positive opinion on him and 58% have a negative rating and that. >> jon meacham, those are mind-boggling numbers in may. and hillary clinton is going to spend and donald trump has said he's going to spend the rest of the campaign attacking hillary clinton and bill clinton and suggesting that hillary clinton sat by idly or enable d. these numbers will not go lower. >> this is not a shining city on a hill campaign. even by our very low standards of president for politics. to me, the most interesting

thing over the weekend was senator clinton using the word "normalized." that's coming out of a lot of strategic sessions where they've learned, i think, the lesson, it was '04, when the bush campaign did so well at attacking john kerry and the independent expenditure groups did. so there's no phony war here, no pause, it's just going to go, go, go. and the battle really is here. does trump keep doing what he's done? insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. in his view, doing the same thing over and over again may achieve the same result. >> and insanity for him would not be doing the same thing over and over again. because everybody said, this doesn't make sense in the future. he's ignored them, he's done it, he's prevailed, looking pretty great in a lot of these polls, but what do those negatives show you, mark halperin? >> three things.

one is that it's going to be possible for one of these candidates to win, being very unliked by the country. statistically. >> and being unable to govern for four years. >> that's going to be very tough to do. second, there's room for another candidate to get into this race. and the last thing is, the clinton people, she doesn't want to be normalized. trump says, he can't possibly win because he's so unpopular. she's unpopular, too. >> that's unbelievable. >> there are very few democrats left around hillary clinton who say he can't win. they still think she'll win, but there are very few who say it's an impossibility. and that's why she's going for this thing, don't normalize it. it would be much better for her if they said, as flawed as she is, trump is unimaginable as president. >> this paves the way for the next number from the polls. about half of voters would consider a third party in the presidential election. 47% tell the nbc/"wall street journal" poll they would be open to voting for a third option

this november. while a majority, 51% say they want a third party candidate to run. according to the "washington post"/abc poll. >> that is -- >> and that goes to what you were saying, your second point, which was, when you have people this unpopular, it paves the way. we hear bob gates and everyone else say, it's just too late. >> it would be too late -- it wouldn't be too late if the right person existed. that's the key. a human being who was popular with the country and who had an issue of positions that kind of split the difference between the two, would have a good chance to be a factor in the race and get on the debate stage. but that person, so far, doesn't exist. >> jon meacham, you've been talking for years about a 150-year duopoly that's going to be broken up. this would be the ideal year, it seems, with these two candidates, to break that duopoly. >> yeah. >> parties die or change significantly when they can't get majority consensus on the key issue of the day, right? so the wigs fall apart in the

1850s, the 1960s, the parties flip on civil rights. today, it seems to me there's not majority consensus really in either party, given sanders' continued success, about globalization and its implications. >> yeah. >> so if you look at it from sort of a high view, then, yeah, there should be a shift here. this is also, sure as heck feels like a year to me, like '68, like '92, where it feels like there's going to be a minority president out of this, somehow. the idea that one of these folks is going to get above 50% will be very unlikely. >> you point out in your column the differences with '68. >> yeah, this is so radical. this is such a radical year, '68, we think about '68 as sort of a revolutionary year. what's, i guess what's so shocking is, harold, in 1968, the revolution was out in the streets. the party structures were still in tact, and in fact, two of the

most establishment figures imaginable, hubert humphrey and richard nixon, won their party's nominations. this year, the revolution is not out in the street. it's inside -- it's left the street. it's now inside the parties. it's donald trump. donald trump is the disrupter who's going to win the republican nomination. and on the democratic side, bernie sanders is the disrupter, and that revolution is happening inside the democratic party right now. i mean, these parties don't know that they're breaking apart, but the revolution has come inside. >> look, both the parties can have, there's enough accountability and blame in each party to explain why this has happened. republicans the last 20 years pushing messages around, trade and messages around the tea party and government, and it got a group of people who want a certain amount of change. democrats pushed a message against business and about against banks and bernie sanders in a lot of ways represents that. and there's no doubt trade and globalization have had the

impact they had. i don't know, though, to mark's point, which i think is probably the right answer, i don't know if there's a right person. you may have regional people. tom brady could run in the northeast or new england. peyton manning could run out in the rocky mountains. but do you have one person who can unite and be that vessel that could be the third party? i'm not convinced that there is, as much as i may find it appealing and some others may want to be supportive of it. i think over time, these numbers will change. and in addition, i don't think we'll find another time when the nominees of the respective parties will emerge from their party primary process more popular than they are unpopular. largely because we focus on this thing for so long. furthermore, everybody's imperfect, and you can find something that someone has said or voted on that puts them out of the mainstream or puts them out of the mainstream with the mainstream feeling in that particular party. i think these numbers will come up a bit. and i don't think there's any doubt, mrs. clinton recognizes that the way to go after trump is to make him look so outside of the ordinary that she looks

ordinary. >> neither one of these candidates are going to win. and they know this. and their political strategists are telling them, you're not going to win. you have to make the other person lose. >> okay, but there's still bernie sanders. and we have to cover what happened in california over the weekend. so coming up on "morning joe," if it wasn't already clear, bernie sanders making it very obvious that he's not happy with the chair of the dnc. also ahead, president obama's 2012 campaign manager, jim messina, "the washington post's" robert costa, and journalist soledad o'brien with a new project about the struggle for so many american veterans when the war comes home. and a live update from cairo on the search for what or who brought down that passenger jet late last week. but first, bill karins with a check on the forecast. >> you guys ready for some summer heat? >> we're still waiting. >> i know, it's coming. this upcoming week will get much warmer. a big pattern flip for areas of the east. we're still watching the tornado

threat. just the light threatening weather we dealt with yesterday and more out there today. let's take you into texas. that's a pretty good decent-sized tornado in the background there. we had other tornadoes, too. another one as far north as south dakota we also watched. storm chasers had good visibility on these storms yesterday. in rural areas of the west, over farmer's fields, nice and safe and that's where we wanted to keep them. you can see, it's black like that, because that's the soil it's picking up from the ground. let's take you into this morning, worst weather in the country, north texas, the dallas-ft. worth area. if you're headed up 35 around sherman, that's where we have some thunderstorms, that's it. the only bad weather. virginia, more rain for you this morning. what a miserable may. straight from early spring to summer heat this week in the mid-atlantic. about time. so today's risk, 14 million people at risk. minneapolis all the way down through areas of kansas, nebraska, oklahoma, and texas. we'll see a few tornadoes again today. they'll be mostly in rural areas of western texas. hopefully they'll miss and not hit any of those small towns. and tomorrow, 13 million more

people at risk. here's the best news. we've had this change in the weather pattern, wave been advertising it, it's coming. we've been wet and cool. wet and cool in the west, too. that's changing, folks. we're going to warm it up across the country as we head towards memorial day weekend. right in time for the holiday weekend, going to feel like summer. new york city, we have 80s headed your way, maybe even upper 80s by the end of this week. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. you both have a perfect driving record. perfect. no tickets. no accidents. that is until one of you clips a food truck, ruining your pfect record. yeah. now you would think your insurance company would cut you some slack, right? no. your insurance rates go through the roof... your perfect record doesn't get you anything. anything. perfect. for drivers with accident forgiveness, liberty mutual won't raise your rates due to your first accident. see car insurance in a whole new light. liberty mutual insurance. it's more than a nit's reliable uptime.

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both hillary clinton and bernie sanders are setting their sights on california's june 7th primary, where 548 delegates are in play. right now clinton needs 85 more delegates to secure the democratic nomination. over the weekend, the former first lady suggested that she is better prepared for the general election than sanders. >> it's also fair to say that i have been vetted and tested and i think that puts me in a very strong position. >> you don't think bernie sanders has been vetted? you don't think this one long year of campaign, your campaign against him, has vetted him? >> let me say, i don't think

he's had a single negative ad ever run against him. and that's fine. but we know what we're going into and we understand what it's going to take to win in the fall. and finally, i would say that, you know, polls this far out mean nothing. they certainly mean nothing to me. and i think if people go back and look, they really mean nothing in terms of analyzing what's going to happen in the fall. >> meanwhile, a new nbc news/"wall street journal" poll shows in a hypothetical matchup, bernie sanders leads donald trump by 15 points. 54% to 39%. >> wow -- >> meacham, you look completely surprised. >> yeah. >> but bernie outperforms hillary in about every single poll. >> it shows -- >> not that that matters, in the end. kasich outperformed trump in every general election poll. >> i don't know. sh shay's rebellion moment. where you have henry

wallace,strom thurmondthurmond. i think it was a wild here. these numbers now in may suggest this tremendous unrest and unhappiness in the country. and so, we were just chatting. the idea that this will be in any way a conventional campaign, and that the conventional rules of the campaign -- >> so do you think a third party candidate still jumps in? >> i think that bloomberg was the one -- mike bloomberg was the one guy who had the means and the intellectual disposition to do it. i think the mayors made it very clear that he doesn't want to spend $1 billion to change the conversation. >> right. >> billionaires don't become billionaires by spending $1 billion. and so, it's hard for me to imagine who the other person is. >> right. >> but i think a third party would certainly be in the 15 to 20-point range pretty quickly. >> her two-front war now is really a problem. a few weeks ago, people were

discounting and saying she could pivot. he's going to california and beyond. and the degree to which she now -- you saw in that interview, she really wants to stamp him out, but she's not able to. and he is clearly agitated, sanders is. clearly agitated. >> all right, so speaking of, sanders spent the weekend campaigning around southern california, where he argued he's the best candidate to take on trump in the fall. >> i say to every democrat in this country, and those delegates who are going to the convention in philadelphia, if you want the strongest candidate to make sure that trump does not become president, we are that campaign. >> another crowd of 7,000 people. >> 7,000 or so. >> relations have been tense between bernie sanders and the dnc. over the weekend, sanders announced his support for tim canova, the primary challenger of dnc chair and primary

challenger of debbie wasserman schultz. >> in florida, are you with wasserman schultz or are you with her opponent? >> well, clearly, i favor her opponent. his views are much closer to me than is wasserman schultz's. and with all due respect to the current chairman, if elected president, she would not be reappointed to be chair of the dnc. >> that wasn't a reach, was it, harold? nobody was shocked when he said that. >> no, but that's antagonistic, though, to jump in supporting her opponent. that's not just, you know, having a position -- >> and fund-raising, as well. >> antagonistic move to prove a point. >> two things first. mrs. clinton was right in her interview about him not being vetted. i think there's a lot to be said for that. and as much as mr. sanders has raised all these important issues, i think that point is right. with regard to chairwoman wasserman schultz, i think she's bungled this from the outset.

i said on the show, there should have been more debates. she has every right to declare her support for mrs. clinton, but as party chairman, you have a set of responsibilities. and a strong case can be made that there's no reason to have antagonized sanders' campaign. i think a lot of this could have been resolved earlier on. >> but it's not resolved, because they don't feel like she's even getting closer to where he stands on some of these issues and these -- >> no, we're talking about two different things. i'm talking about the relationship between the dnc and mr. sanders. with regard to what you're saying, mr. sanders is now -- his opponent is now or less delegates away from securing the nomination, so he didn't win. there's a venerable position in politics when you don't win the party, that you sit and talk. and party has a big responsibility in trying to reconcile that. in '88 when jesse jackson was running, a late ron brown came to help and negotiate and reconcile some of the

differences between the two candidates. >> why don't they do that? >> i don't think the party has done their part here. >> why? what's wrong? >> there's an ancient historical test about you can tell how much party a primary is in internally by house house parties they get involved. in 1978, ronald reagan endorsed george w. bush's primary opponent in the midland congressional race, how the right was right to take out the old man. and the fact that sanders is getting involved in a house primary, suggests two things. one is the deep ideological -- >> because bush was the party chairman. >> no, but he was about to run against reagan for president. and who, you've got the sense that sanders, at some level, i think people want sanders to be this upton sinclair figure, sort of above politics. he's getting involved in a house primary in florida, so he's pushing. >> he wants to go to the convention now. and at the convention, there will be corporate interests that the clintons are going to be going to their events and

hobnobbing, business as usual. he does not want the convention to be business as usual. and he's got the leverage now to do that. it's a much bigger problem than i thought it would be. in these polls, he's not consolidating democrats. >> is that why trump's doing so well? because the democrats haven't come home yet? >> and independents. >> he's doing better with independents. >> do we expect if bernie does turn around and start supporting hillary, for those democrats to come home and line up behind hillary. are they going to be wandering in the wilderness, looking for another candidate. >> i think in the end, he will want to stop donald trump. >> he said that. >> and will bring some people around. >> but it gives her a smaller margin of error now between now and july. >> all right. coming up, we're going to dig into joe's new "washington post" piece for the must-read opinion pages and jon meacham is awaiting his royalties check. keep it right here on "morning joe."

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♪ no, you're not ♪ yogonna watch it! ♪tch it! ♪ ♪ we can't let you download on the goooooo! ♪ ♪ you'll just have to miss it! ♪ yeah, you'll just have to miss it! ♪ ♪ we can't let you download... uh, no thanks. i have x1 from xfinity so... don't fall for directv. xfinity lets you download your shows from anywhere. i used to like that song. 33 past the hour. the search continues this morning for the wreckage of the egypt air flight that crashed into the mediterranean last week. egypt has brought in additional resources for help to hunt for the plane's black boxes. the egyptian military has also released photos of the debris recovered on friday. joining us now from cairo, msnbc

foreign correspondent, ayman mohyeldin. ayman, what's the latest on the search for the flight data recorders? >> reporter: as you mentioned, the egyptian government is deployi ining more resources. among those that have joined the search for the flight data recorder and cockpit voice recorder is an egyptian submarine that belongs to the ministry of petroleum here, ministry of oil. they say that it can survey the sea bottom, with the hopes of trying to identify where that wreckage site might be. the announcement came in president al sisi's first public announcements. nonetheless, the egyptian military releasing the first images of debris that it has recovered at sea. and it's very visible, that some of the things they've recovered a have the logo of egyptair on it. it's a very definitive sign by the military that they have, in fact, at least identified some of that wreckage.

but for a lot of the family members, the hope of waiting to find answers have shifted to mourning. over the weekend, we've seen a lot of memorial services and learning a little bit more about some of these passengers, including the heartbreaking story of this young couple. she was diagnosed with cancer. they had traveled to france to try to find a cure or treatment for her. and upon their return, as they were scheduled to return, that flight crashed. it was a heartbreaking story. they have left three children behind that are now going to be taken care of by other relatives. we're expecting more memorial services to be held today, including an official one that is being held by egyptair for its pilots and flight attendants. >> ayman mohyeldin, thank you very much. and still ahead, you might have to go back to '87 to see such populist rays threatening the establishment political region. 1787, that is. joe turns back the clock in his

latest column. and actually, joe doesn't make it boring. >> it's just a good monday morning. >> okay. >> it's a victory for the founding fathers. >> also -- >> we have a historian -- >> and a frock coat he can wear. >> we're also going to be reading maureen dowd's latest column, the clinton campaign and the death march. must-read opinion pages, next. fallujah argonne khe sanh midway dak to normandy medina ridge the chosin reservoir these are places history will never forget but more important are the faces we will always remember. ♪

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very impressive. whoo, it's got a little kick to it. sorry, i can't hear you?? nice shirt craig. at jet.com, we always find innovative ways to save. get 15 percent off your first order. all right. it's time for the must-read opinion pages. yours is so good. >> so what are we reading right here, meacham? >> we're reading "the new york times," which shows a piece about a madmen prop auction. and you can get a global -- >> he's -- yeah. >> a global drinks caddie. >> that's a little close, but okay. >> you can get pete's drink caddie, which we can would fit in with the global brand. >> i think we'll put them in right over here. >> i'll go further back in history and read from "the

washington post," entitled alexander hamilton's warning to voters. believe it or not, shea's rebellion is in this piece. but the concept of it is this. conservative thought leaders who have always identified themselves as the intellectual descen descendants of thomas jefferson and james madison need to reread hamilton's contributions to the federalist papers. like today's established elites who fear donald trump and bernie sanders, hamilton believed populism unchecked was a path to anarchy. in 2016, the two parties that have dominated u.s. politics for 150 years have been commandeered by pirates from outside the establishment. too often, the captains navigating those ships have found their passengers cheering for those same pirates. hamilton, madison, and washington regained control of their ship of state. today's leaders seem less capable of controlling the mutiny rising in their midsts.

>> ron chernow wrote, men of property would be held hostage by armies of the indebted and the unemployed. and talking about the populism that the state legislatures, state by state by state, were engaging in. and, which led to shay's rebellion and george washington's response, good god, which was a wake-up call when after shay's rebellion, washington finally said, okay, we will have to have a constitution that unites these states. >> well, washington was -- again, all politics is personal. washington was very reluctant to go to the convention in philadelphia, because he didn't want to invest his personal prestige in a project might fail. and shay's rebellion, various work by madison, convinced washington to come. and washington's arrival there leading the convention really did it. the great fear was democracy. the great fear was the kind of rough and tumble democratic

politics that we know now. what they put in place was a republican, lower case "r," structure, that tried to control the battle of interests in a peaceable way. and it's the oldest functioning democracy in the world, and we're testing it as much as we can, at this point. but the wisdom of those guys and the practical political impulses of those folks makes them far more relevant and resonant to us. they're not some distant statutes. these are men who were working politics. >> and you go back and read the federalist papers or whether you read, you know, ron chernow's book on alexander hamilton, what's remarkable, mark, is that there were warnings. it sounds like they were talking about donald trump and bernie sanders. again, today's establishment could look at the words of washington, hammilton and jefferson -- or not jefferson so much, and madison. and it lines up with what a lot of the fears are today with the establishment. >> look, the system that was

conceived was supposed to keep any individual powerful interests from dominating by diffusing power. what the sanders and trump supporters both believe is that powerful money and special interests now dominate our politics and the politicians just do what they want them to do. and that is where the threat is coming from more than anything else. >> and both parties really miss -- they underestimated the feeling within the populous. look at maureen dowd's -- you're saying, you think? "weekend at bernie's" in "the new york times". it must be hard for hillary clinton to look at all the pictures of young women swooning over bernie, as though he were bieber. she assumed that the fix was in. that she and the dnc had arranged from the coronation that she felt she was robbed of in the tulip craze of 2008, but bernie became the surprise ballot on his side's of the revolutionary ball. now he has gotten a taste of it and he likes it and he won't let

go. he bedevilling the daylight out of hillary. i've talked to several former clinton and obama white house aides who don't enjoy checking in with the joyless clinton campaign in brooklyn. it's the baa tab death march, one says. hillary can't generate excitement on her own, so she's relying on fear of trump to get her into the white house. and trump is relying on fear of everything to get him in the white house. so voters are stuck in the muck of the negative. what are you most afraid of? >> i have to say, i don't think hillary clinton thought, you know, this is a coronation, i'm going to get it. i don't. she doesn't seem like that kind of person, when you talk to her. but i do think the dnc assumed that the others would just go away and that they could just kind of get to work on hillary. and i know they're supposed to be objective, but they're not. they are not. >> you back a year and a half, everybody knew it was going to be hillary clinton versus jeb bush. >> really? >> that was a widely accepted -- >> all the party structures -- >> the party structures -- >> thought that jeb was going to get it. the democratic party thought hillary was going to get it.

all the money interests thought these two were going to get it. and it didn't work out that way. >> no, it clearly, at least on one side, it didn't work out that way. look, these things happen, as john knows, and mark, because all of us know, every cycle, there's somebody that comes in and creates a kind of populist hysteria on both sides, on one side or the other. this time it's happened on both sides, and it seems is to be sustaining itself, especially on the republican side. you have to give trump a lot of credit. he beat one heck of a republican field, with a very deep, experienced field of republicans he beat. mrs. clinton, on the other side, i think there have been some miscalculations along the way in what voters were expecting and wanting. and i don't think there's been a coherent, yet, economic message, because that's the number one -- >> that's the question i asked for the past -- >> and to sanders, i don't agree with his answers, but he has prescribed a problem pretty well. >> and excuse me, joe, i don't

think you can cast him off every year as one of these come-along. this is different. 7,000 people in california, harold. >> but dean had a lot of big problems. we forget these things very quickly. >> but not this -- >> but not this late into the process. >> hillary had great crowds in 2008 and was winning -- >> did she have 11,000 people in an arena? out of nowhere? >> but as i've said before, i would rather win with a lack of enthusiastic voters than lose with a warm of enthusiastic voters. so i'm not dismissing or belittling what he's accomplished. i'm only saying, history shows that we've had moments like this in these primaries -- >> i don't know, i don't know that we've ever had a moment like bernie sanders, where you get a guy, little known, that is -- sustains a campaign, as long as he sustained a campaign, can raise a type of money. this guy has raised close to $180 million. >> and who is he?

>> bernie sanders, a vermont socialist, without taking wall street money, has out-raised hillary clinton -- >> with no celebrity platform. >> and he's also raised $180 million. average donation, $27 a piece. if you want to know what the revolution has been in 2016, it has not been donald trump. donald trump is a one-off. he is a celebrity who has been around for 40 years. bernie sanders is the revolution that will forever change the way american politics is done. this is the revolution, friends, in 2016. this is the change. this is the break in time. his name is bernie sanders and he has proven, mark halperin, that you don't need a political party, you don't need a political structure. you know what you need? you need a website, you need the ability to collect money, $27 a pop. and you need a message that you believe in and that you've fought for your entire life. build it, and they will come. >> but you also need a message you've talked about and believe in that resonates with millions

of americans. the reason i don't think it's changed everything for everybody is that not everybody has that. every politician would love to do, ted cruz would have loved to have raised bernie sanders money on the web. he did all right, but nothing like that. so would marco rubio and jeb bush. you need a message that really resonates. >> that really resonates, that cuts. and i'm telling you on this set over the past two years, or since hillary clinton's candidacy was even a topic, i remember asking everybody who came on this set, what was her message? and what i got in return was word salad. and we can pull all the bites and play a montage. the opportunity was there. she has a great message. she is, i think she's a great candidate. i think she's the most prepared. every time i asked the question to any hillary clinton supporter close to her or on the outside -- >> but here's the -- >> -- word salad. >> here's the frustration. remember jeb bush? you interviewed jeb bush and you said, i don't think i've ever talked to a republican that was

as well versed in policy as jeb bush. >> prepared. >> it was amazing. >> he could not -- >> amazing. >> -- he could not boil it down to a stupid sound bite that could excite people. go to hillary clinton's website, and you will read policy position after policy position after policy position. it's not that she doesn't have an economic policy, it's just that she doesn't boil it down and hasn't boiled it down to a stupid sound bite. she is policy driven. i promise you, you want to go to sleep tonight, i promise you, you want to go to sleep tonight, go to hillary clinton's website and start reading policy positions. i do not criticize her for this. i salute her for this. she has thought it out. and guess what, it's not an easy one. it's not like, you know, make america great again -- >> think like a man. they don't say much, but they just say it strongly. >> this is the problem with jeb bush. right now, the candidates, the candidates that cannot get

through editorial board meetings without embarrassing themselves are the ones drawing massive crowds. >> right. >> it's just the reality. >> it's true. >> the only thing i would add is we say "stupid sound bite," that's not actually true, right? >> that's not what we're asking. >> ask what your country can do is not a stupid sound bite. the sermon on the mound had a lot of messages. >> we'll make a upmontage of th questions ai've asked. >> that was the genius of ronald reagan that would always frustrate the people that thought they were so much smarter than reagan. reagan could take a complex issue and boil it down to a sound bite and sell it to america. and perhaps it's a challenge for hillary. >> and the emphasis she's chosen in the campaign at times, at least up to this point, i think has been a little misplaced. i think the emphasis should be on the economic message as

opposed to, i'm a believer of what she says around guns, but that should not be the lead in this campaign. the lead should be what bernie sanders and donald trump -- well, not only that, what is worrying -- what is the source of the anxiety? it's economic insecurity. and she has the best set of ideas, to your point. and i think you may be right. you would probably fall asleep reading some of this stuff. but she's got to figure out, how do you synthesize -- >> and for me, she doesn't have the best set of ideas, but she is a thought-through platform. it will work for you and millions of -- >> i didn't put that in your mouth. >> i'm not saying she has the best set of economic plans, but it's thought out. she's serious, she's prepared. >> best candidate. best candidate. >> right now that puts her in a distinct minority. >> we're back in just a moment. it's more than a network and the cloud.

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it's on. >> no, no, no, it's just a very rigorous academic schedule. >> well. >> okay, coming up, what the new polling this morning says about the state of the race. >> what's that? >> that's just not true. i'm glad she doesn't have a tv in her apartment right now. up and down the presidential ballot, "the washington post's" robert costa and msnbc's steve kornacki and kasie hunt join the conversation. plus, donald trump told us on friday that he had been invited by british prime minister david cameron for a visit. >> that's good. smashing. >> this morning, 10 downing street gives us a little fact

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but they're daughters heart was set on going to the zoo. so guess what, i met them at the zoo. service that fits your schedule. that's another safelite advantage. ♪ safelite repair, safelite replace. ♪ well, i've done it! i've won the nomination! well, no, i haven't, i keep losing states. but mathematically, i've done it! to math! all right, i think i'm going to head home. don't you work too late, now. >> oh, i won't, mrs. clinton.

i'm closing up the bar, so everybody's got to go. that means you, too, sir! >> no, freaking way! i'm not going anywhere! i can stay here as long as i want. >> senator sanders, i'm sorry, but the night is over. >> no! no, it's not over! it's not over until i say it's over! >> oh, hello, bernie. i didn't see you sitting behind me, so far behind me you could never catch up. >> welcome back to "morning joe." it's funny. that's a funny spoof on "snl." monday, may 23rd. gosh, it's late may, but it feels like, i don't know, october here in new york city. >> it is cold and rainy. >> very cold. so still with us, we have managing editor of bloomberg politics, mark halperin, pulitzer prize-winning historian, jon meacham, former democratic congressman, harold ford jr. and joining the conversation, political reporter for "the washington post," msnbc political analyst, robert costa.

>> so let's start. we're going to be showing a lot of polls that show a tightening race. we have the "new york post," obviously, coming out, talking about this poll vault. donald trump doing well in some polls. >> it's very early. >> mark halperin, it is very, very, very early. but mark, a lot of reporting this morning that the clinton campaign, in a bit of -- i wouldn't say panic, but certainly, feeling under siege. >> they have a challenge, and they know they have to solve it, that they are not currently on a trajectory to have the kind of margin of error they would like. they're looking around to see, what do we need to do? >> how nervous were they, when these polls came out? >> not nervous, but they know this changes the narrative in a way that's not helpful to them, because for hillary clinton to go around saying, you can't be normalized, you can't be treated like a normal candidate. it's a lot harder to do. >> i'll go from you to harold ford. will you admit on the air when these polls came out, the clintons were very nervous?

>> i don't think it provided a lot of comfort. >> okay. guy, we've all had a conversation off the air, these polls came out and it was like, oh, my god, what in the world is going on out there? bill clinton shocked by what's going on out there. the clinton campaign shocked by what's going on out there. they did not expect this. >> i did, and i've said it -- >> yeah, you have. >> they did. they told me three weeks ago that they were going to be behind in the polls. >> then why are they shocked by these polls? >> they're not shocked by them, but they're deeply troubled because they know -- >> but it's so early! >> it is so early, but why are they deeply troubled, harold? >> i think there's concern. i think mark nailed it. if part of the strategy is to show that donald trump is unsteady and perhaps unhinged and is not prepared to be president, i think the words used by mrs. clinton, he's unqualified, you have 43 to 44% of the country saying that they are for him. that creates a different dynamic, which is one that can

be overcome, but i think it can cause some re-thinking about the strategy right now. >> they are actually, they are thinking what jeb bush's team thought, like, are you kidding me? are you kidding me? this guy? we've done everything the way you're supposed to do it, we've done it right, worked hard, built an operation. >> real work. >> this guy is acting like a clown, he's tweeting, he's insulting people left and right, and he's head of us in some polls. they are -- vertigo has set in over there, like it did with jeb. >> it's through the looking glass. and part of the issue here is also, once you get even, you know, you can't really make a lot of progress by telling half the electorate that they're wrong, because people just don't like being told they're wrong. now, you can make the case, and she's started to make the case this weekend. >> that i'm better. >> that's different. but basically, when they get to

the, trump is not a plausible president, then you're telling 34, 35, 44% of the people that they're intellectually assenting to a proposition that's not plausible and that puts the voter back on the defensive. it's a very tough argument to make. that's why i think she's saying, i think the word normalization is probably not the most felicitous one. but that argument that somehow or another, you have to get trump out of the mainstream, gets ever harder. >> yeah, he's in the mainstream. >> that's what they're arguing. the functional argument from the clinton, he's not a normal candidate. >> that's not going to work. >> they want to argue what the obama people argued last time, mathematically, as she said on that "saturday night live" sketch, she can't lose. mathematically, the electoral college and the demographics means that she can't lose.

but this shows that it's up for grabs. >> now an nbc news/"wall street journal" poll shows that margin h is only three points. and an 11-point shift in trump's favor. meanwhile, the cbs news/you.gov poll shows them in a dead heat. 43 for clinton, 42 for trump. and in ohio, clinton holds a five-point lead, 44% to trump's 39%. i've got to tell you, you know how we always made these arguments, or especially i heard from people like you, that the primary is one thing, but when you get to the general, it will be different. i mean -- okay. >> well, no -- hold on. >> well? >> do you want me to respond? >> yes, what do you think? >> i think we need to wait.

i think mitt romney was ahead of barack obama at several points in 2012. i think you also have -- you had john mccain ahead of barack obama in 2008. and i think right now, there is a civil war raging within the democratic party. >> right. >> let's wait and see. i'm not saying that trump won't be close in all these states. let's see what happens when the democratic civil war comes to an end and you have the kind of consolidation on the democratic side that you now are seeing on the republican side. >> and that's where i think we feel as if things will change here. >> i think the party has got to fix this. >> this is a snapshot in time. but mark halperin, it is a snapshot that is taken at a point where the republicans are getting behind a candidate that a lot of them don't like, but 88% are behind him, with hillary clinton. we're still in the middle of a civil war on democratic side. where six out of ten democrats are behind hillary. when it's eight out of ten democrats, nine out of ten democrats, which it will be, if

they figure out how to do it correctly, those numbers are going to look far different. mark my word, put it down, today is may the 23rd, just mark it down. >> the math is still her friend. she can lose independents and win this raise as long as he turns the right people out and unifies the party. the problem, again, she is not, as she herself has said, she is not the political athlete that barack obama or her husband is, and she's got some complex tasks ahead of her, picking a running mate, launching that well, having a great convention, giving a great acceptance speech and giving great debates. if she statutes on those things, the math is with her again. >> i don't think it's hillary clinton's candidacy. i'm concerned that it's the party that has put the democrats in this position. does anyone disagree? how could this be, at this point, right now? >> the party has mishandled it -- >> how could they not get bernie sanders to work with them. >> because you've got a guy who's 74 years old.

he's not a democrat in the first place. he's an independent socialist from vermont. he's not been a part of the democratic establishment -- >> but he's not going to win, so -- >> he's not going to win, but -- he's not going to save himself for -- when he's 78 or 82. so this is bernie's last ride. so it's going to be a lot harder bringing this in for a landing, is it not? >> it also makes the general election entirely unpredictable. consultants i'm talking to are looking at a whole new paradigm. they look at sanders supporters and see trump's populism on trade and immigration and other issues, and they wonder if the democratic party is divided in the coming months into the summer, could trump pluck some of those voters into the republican coalition. >> are they worried about the unfavorables. a new poll are showing both candidates are the most unpopular likely presidential nominees ever. >> only 34% registered voters

have a positive position of clinton. 54% have a negative opinion. a new rating of minus 20 points. trump is down even lower. 29 percent have a positive opinion of him. 58% have a negative opinion. a net negative rating of 29 points. >> so you have there, bob, donald trump with a 29% positive rating, but his net is a negative 29. what are republican strategists and people inside the trump campaign tell you about that? do they try to turn that around, or do they just try to bring hillary clinton lower? >> it's more of the latter. there's a sense they can battle clinton in a relentless way. and talking to my democratic sources, there is a concern that trump's saturation of the air waves, his ability every day to go on twitter and change the national political conversation and just be bombastic and relentless in a way that most clinton people were not prepared for in a general election, that's concerning to some democrats. there's a sense that trump is not going to even try to repair

his image in many ways, in traditional ways. it's going to be an all-out brawl, day in, day out. >> this all paves the way for these next numbers from the polls. about half of voters would consider a third party in the presidential election. 47% tell the nbc/"wall street journal" poll, they would be open streeting for a third option this november, while a majority, 51% say they want a third party candidate to run. according to the abc/"washington post" poll. isn't it too late? is it too late for a third party candidate? >> a fusian ticket of one democrat and one republican were popular, likable and well-funded wouldn't be -- >> how? how? what could they do? just in terms of the numbers and states? how could they get in at this late date? >> they announce and say that the two major party candidates, whichever one wins, couldn't get anything done in washington, announce a convincing electoral college and fund-raising strategy and be fun. look like they're having fun doing what they're doing.

generally, the candidates that look like they're having fun wins. >> but you know it takes so much more than just saying, "i'm running for president." >> you would knee a fund-raising plan and a valid access plan. >> and by the way -- >> it's not happening. >> by the way, the process is rigged to a point that they've even rigged the calendar. where you get the party nominees at the point where by the time you get the nominees, the filing deadlines are coming up. so, again, the two parties have rigged it so you never have the independent choice that you would want. i mean, jon meacham, i want to follow up on what mark said. the biggest argument against these two candidates is, that when they both get to washington, d.c., whoever wins, neither will be able to get anything done. barack obama has a 50% approval rating. he can't get anything done. donald trump wouldn't be able to get anything done with a

republican congress, that he's insulted. i mean, you can say nine things positive about donald trump. say one negative thing about him and you're a dummy. >> from his standpoint. >> yeah, from his standpoint. he'll call you a dummy and say, you know, cnn, they've been kissing up to him for months and months and months and months. they've given him extraordinary access. they have a couple of people on that say negative things on a saturday afternoon and he says, cnn is so negative, getting even worse as i get closer. too many trump losers! with zero rebuttal from my team. turning off! after cnn -- i mean, seriously, after cnn has given him just incredible welcome unprecedented, extraordinary access -- >> some would argue -- >> and that guy right there on a saturday afternoon, attacks them because there's one panel that he doesn't like.

that guy is not going to know how to work with congress anymore than barack obama knew how to work with congress. and then you have hillary clinton. are the republicans going to do anything with hillary clinton? no. we can already say, these two candidates will be a nightmare if they get elected in their relations with congress. >> well, politics is a manufacturing of consensus and there are no political -- there are very few political incentives right now for any lawmaker to vote outside the direct interest of their base. whether it's redistricting or the states. and i think that no matter what happens, trump or hillary, trump or clinton are going to be polarizing figures. that's only going to exacerbate. >> i'm not so sure. if you look at secretary clinton, she's not an ideologue. and with trump, you also don't have an ideologue. you have someone who's a dealmaker. >> in addition to that -- but at

least hillary clinton has a public policy record also, where she's worked across the aisle. and found common ground. you've had republicans that served in the obama administration, and the bush administration -- >> that is true. >> and in the senate, there's a record -- with donald trump, donald trump has been a democrat a lot longer than he's been a republican. one could assume he can work with democrats. >> schumer and ryan will be the top people and they'll be big dealmaker dealmakers. i believe the voter's perception is that they are not people who can get things done. that they are too particularizing. the people don't have a sense they would go to washington with a lot of forward momentum. >> and the direct answer to your question, i think someone could run, but who would that person be? because if the two people were strong enough, they might be able to force and create another unprecedented thing, which is people writing them in in states. i don't know if there are two individuals who can do that. >> polls where people say they

want a third party candidate is like answering, should you exercise more? yeah, we're all kind of -- >> but would they all agree on that third-party candidate? no. >> >> totally agree with that. >> and romney got 22% in that "washington post" poll. >> and the third party chatter out there is not really in fa r favor, i would say, on the right for a business. the appetite is for a ben sasse or some other conservative to step in and protect what the conservative movement considers itself to be. >> let's look at that romney poll again. this is a very interesting poll. mitt romney 22%, hillary, 37%, trump, 35%. that seems to -- a lot of people have been saying, if there's a third party republican running, that that would hurt donald trump. no, it wouldn't. i think it takes from both people. i think this is just -- >> no. >> it's a total wild card. >> all the rules are out. >> i think if you had a

conservative, it would give republicans someone to go to. while democrats, depending on hillary clinton, who she picks as a running mate, i think they would be fine with hillary clinton. i think a lot of republicans are very uncomfortable with donald trump. and -- look at ari fleischer on our show on friday, who is a trump supporter, and could not give one reason why he supports trump, except that he's not hillary clinton. ari fleischer, who worked in the -- this is a guy who understands policy, who helps message policy, who has clearly looked at the candidate. could not tell me why he likes trump -- because he doesn't -- but he supports trump, because he's not hillary. that's crazy! >> you dig into a lot of these polls -- >> and i love ari fleischer, i just feel bad for him. >> you dig into a lot of these polls, 44 to 45% of the people who say they're voting for trump are doing it as a vote against hillary and not a vote for trump, and you can say the same

thing on the democratic side, where about half of hillary's support also came from people who say, it wasn't a vote for hillary, it was a vote against trump. >> right. >> i want to say, go back to this question about -- >> here are the trump voters. 44% say they're doing it to support trump, 53% say they're doing it to oppose clinton. and on the other side, it is 48% supporting clinton, 48% are saying that she would get their vote just to oppose trump. >> ones the congressional question tor deal making, yes, senator clinton and trump are dealmakers, but you're going to have a republican caucus that's going to be trying to delegitimatize a president clinton, the same way they did 25 years ago, and there are going to be democrats who are never going to accept the idea that donald trump is president. and i think you're going to have a politics where consensus is incredibly difficult. >> all right. so, just on this final note, british prime minister david camer cameron, he said yesterday --

>> we're going to cover this meeting. trump said he had been invited over to 10 downing street. i've never actually been at 10 downing street. i've peered through the gates and looked, wow, is that 10 downing street down there. so i want to go, because trump -- >> it's in "love, actually." >> and you saw him -- hugh grant dancing down -- i would kind of like to see those stairs. >> so, yesterday -- >> but, anyway, i think trump, maybe we can get on the plane. >> british prime minister david cameron yesterday said he would be happy to meet president if he becomes the republican presidential candidate, but he still defended his criticism of trump's proposal for a temporary ban on muslims -- >> wait, do they not have a set date? i thought they had a set date? >> you were applauded by many people when you described donald trump's policy on -- or saying that you would not let muslims into america, you described that as "stupid," but he may well end

up as president of the united states. are you going to take steps to try and build bridges with him, mend fences? >> i'm a great believer in the special relationship -- >> are you going to see him before the election? >> i don't know. >> would you like to? >> american presidential candidates have made a habit of coming through europe and through the uk. and so if that happens, i would be very happy to. i don't withdrawal in any way what i said about the policy of not letting muslims into america. i do think that is wrong and divisive, as i said. >> that is -- >> 10 downing street -- >> -- divisive. >> 10 downing street replied to trump's assertion on our show friday that he had received an invitation. >> that's why -- we're going to go to that. >> but apparently, while he's staying there's a long-standing tradition of prime ministers meeting u.s. presidential candidate ifs they visit the uk, there is actually no formal invitation and nothing on the calendar. >> but he said he got an invitation. i want to go! >> robert costa, thank you! >> wait.

wait. >> still ahead on "morning joe". >> are you saying he didn't get an invitation? >> it appears there is a mincing. >> but -- >> a special misunderstanding. >> but he said he got an invitation. >> maybe he did, i don't know. they're conflicting on this. >> you mean i'm going to have to look through the gate again? hello, lad! i want to go! >> you were not invited at all. >> we are separated by a common language. >> don't worry. you received no invitation. msnbc's steve kornacki joins the table. >> oh, he's good. i bet he got invited. >> he'll come in here and just start screaming. that's what he does every time. >> i'm going to talk about -- by the way, i got an invitation to the taj mahal. >> no, you didn't. the man who led president obama's reelection victory, his 2012 campaign manager, jim messina, and his thoughts on the presidential race. >> nobody wants you there. >> shay's rebellion. the invitation, right there. it's more than a network and the cloud.

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all right. we've got some more numbers from the nbc poll. >> hold on. do you want your camera? come here. >> that is quite a camera.

>> how you guys doing? it's good to see you back. >> the camera the size of a buick. >> don draper's old buick. >> everyone listen to me, please. hillary clinton's biggest advantages come from non-white voters with a 79-point lead among african-americans and with a 48-point lead with latinos, with women, clinton has a 13-point lead. and a 23-point lead with young voters. donald trump's edge comes among white voters who leads clinton by 16 points. a 9-point lead among men. and a 5-point edge with independent voters. >> can we go back to the -- >> with trump's numbers -- >> hold on one second. so latinos, 68-20. obviously, mitt romney had 27% back -- according to exit polls, in 2012. that's the reason they thought he lost the election. how is trump sitting at 20% and tied in a lot of these polls? >> well, what's interesting --

>> steve kornacki. >> if you look at all those numbers you just showed, both of those screens, it is similar how striking that is to obama/romney 2012. if you extrapolated it a little bit, you're basically where romney was. it's a 16-point margin there. independents, that's basically where romney was. men, that's basically where romney was. he's a little bit off, a little bit off when it comes to latino voters, but overall, for all the talk that donald trump, of the never-trump crowd on the republican side, saying, my god, we might as well not have the election if this guy is the nominee, i think his starting point is mitt romney's finishing point. >> pretty incredible. >> with trump's numbers with hispanics the backdrop of this next story, donald trump did not attend this week's national hispanic christian leadership conference, sending a video instead. and here's how it played in the room. >> so great to be with the national hispanic christian leadership conference. we're going to do a lot of things if i get elected

president. we're going to strengthen our borders. people are going to come into our country, but they're going to come into a process. we're going to stop the drugs. national hispanic christian. three great words. we're going to take care of you, we're going to work with you. you'll be very happy. you're going to like president trump. [ laughter ] >> let's pray. >> i guarantee it, mark halperin? >> you know, steve laid it out perfectly, which is, if you look at where trump is now in that poll, the nbc/"wall street journal" poll, he's got a base line. the question is, is he going to move up or down? and trump has just begun to fight. on the other hand, the clinton folks have superior infrastructure, more money right now, a better general election plan. these national polls don't tell you where he is in the general election. but, i continue to believe that trump is going to make a play for male hispanics, male african-americans in a way that

might get him close enough to romney's numbers, and he will do better with men and with white voters than mitt romney did. >> and probably older voters. >> yeah, yeah. and with working class voters. so he's got some areas where he could move up, compared to romney, as long as he moves up a little bit with hillary clinton's coalition, there's the match there. but the clinton people are counting on this being not trump's starting point from which he'll move up, but a point from which he'll move down, because they'll try to destroy him with these other groups. >> steve, i'm with you. i look at these numbers. he is start wrg mitt romney ended. if you listen to press coverage over the past nine months, you would think donald trump would be well below where mitt romney ended with hispanics in 2012. so if i were in trump's campaign organization right now, i wouldn't be discouraged.

i would say, we have room to grow. >> and you can take any of those groups and lay out a targeted strategy, if you drive up one or two of those groups, you can erase your three-point gap. at the end of the 2012 campaign, one of the reasons that the conventional wisdom after 2012 is that republicans are doomed electorally in the future unless they do immigration reform, unless they radically increase their support among latinos, nobody thought a republican could do better among white voters than mitt romney did in 2012. and the context of that election. 59%. i don't think that's an automatic assumption. >> no. >> if donald trump bumps that up to 61 to 62%, and white voters are still making up more than 3/4 of the electorate, that's a significant jump. i don't think we can sit here in may and say, he's not going to do that. >> put the trump groups back up, guys. >> that includes white voters. all right. so, he's at 52 now. i think that can go up. joe, you said seniors. i think seniors can go up. men, i think that number can go

up. independent independents probably can go up. >> but he's at 52% with whites, 42% with men. yes, i think all three of those numbers can and likely will go up. and this is why the bernie sanders challenge is such a problem the democratic convention might look like a socialist festival. it's going to hurt her, in theory, with white voters, with male voters, and older voters. >> steve kornacki, stay with us, if you can. you still haven't let that rage out, so we want to -- >> once a day. like ownerm eoesh owner with an. coming up, my opponent, secretary clinton, thinks 12 bucks an hour is enough. no way! no way! >> bernie sanders claims hillary clinton was late for the fight for '15, but it's clinton who

today will be addressing the group behind that minimum wage battle. msnbc's kasie hunt joins us with her latest reporting, ahead. ♪jake reese, "day to feel alive"♪ ♪ke reese, "day to feel alive"♪ ♪jake reese, "day to feel alive"♪ "i'm tired." or, "i'm hungry." what if your body said something else might be wrong? gynecologic cancers - cervical, ovarian and uterine cancers - have symptoms. so pay attention. if your body says something may be wrong....

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. is there anything donald trump's done you think should be praised? >> i think he needs to release his tax returns. the only ones we have shows that he hasn't paid a penny in taxes. he goes around talking about making america great. that means paying for our military, means paying for our roads, means paying for the v.a. that means a lot of things. and if you have somebody running for president that's afraid to release his tax returns, i think that's a big problem. >> but my question was, there's nothing about his background that is praiseworthy? >> we'll find out. because we have to get below the hype and find what the reality is. >> she liked him at the wedding.

>> that's not such a good attack. everyone went to the wedding. >> bill kristol tweets out that wedding picture every three minutes. >> how many weddings have you gone to that maybe -- >> actually, nobody invites me to weddings, but if they did, i'd go. >> they all have the wrong e-mail address. >> that's what my mom keeps saying. they have the wrong address, joey. they're just jealous of you. >> hillary clinton on "meet the press," questioning just how successful donald trump really is, joining us from detroit, msnbc political correspondent, kasie hunt. kasie, what can we expect from clinton north dakota in michigan? >> reporter: good morning, guys. michigan an interesting choice. last time i was here was when bernie sanders had that surprise come from behind victory in michigan. and i think that there's a sense of potential foreshadowing right with this new nbc poll showing them so close. and i wanted to hit on, you were

talking earlier about that normalized comment, that she made. she doesn't want donald trump to become a normal type of candidate. somebody that seems acceptable. i think that's a real window into the clinton's strategy here. and aides i've talked to underscore that. and that's part of why bernie sanders staying in this race is such a challenge for them. a poll that puts them so close together makes donald trump seem like a normal candidate, compared to hillary clinton. and the clinton officials i've talked to over the course of the past 24 hours, they acknowledge that they think they're going to grow some after this primary is over. and that really does admit to a certain extent that bernie sanders staying in is really damaging her. and i think this has developed into a problem, and you were talking about this a little bit earlier, too, in some ways, it's unexpected that it has dragged out this long. and having covered bernie sanders, it's pretty closely, it's clear to me this is stemming directly from his

feelings of anger and frustration you saw, where he talked about debbie wasserman schultz over the weekend. i think one thing republicans taught us, there were all of these guys that wouldn't put their greater ambitions to rest for the greater good. republicans ended up with trump. it's possible that could happen as well here. >> kasie hunt, appreciate it. let's bring in the campaign manager for president obama's former re-election campaign, jeff messina. so many questions we want to ask you. i want to start by comparing what's happening right now in the democratic fight in 2016 to what happened in 2008. do you draw parallels between hillary clinton honging on through the convention to bernie sanders doing the same thing now, or do you think it's a bit more intense in 2016? >> i think it's pretty parallel. i think the question isn't what's going to happen now, it's going to be, what's going to happen the day after the primary. people forget that clinton flew to new hampshire, endorsed obama, and started campaigning

for him very quickly. the question is how quickly bernie will do that. and i think primaries are always difficult and everyone always freaks out, but this is going to be okay. >> do you see bernie doing that? >> i do. i think it's the right thing to do for the party and i think his supporters will look at donald trump and say, there's no way we'll allow this guy to become president of the united states. >> i found it interesting while republicans, two, three months back were heaping scorn on donald trump, it seems that most of the people that ran barack obama's campaigns in 2008, whether it was david plouffe or david axelrod or others, they weren't heaping scorn on donald trump's abilities. they were all saying, be concerned, be very concerned. this guy is unorthodox. do you share your former colleagues', not fear, but concern about donald trump's ability to shape shift and possibly win the election? >> i think every presidential election in america is always

close and this is always going to be close. donald trump is the single boast social media campaigner in the history of politics. that's true and this thing will be a difficult struggle. that said, i think trump has historic challenges to make it really difficult for him. but this is going to be a close election. it's the united states. it's going to be close. >> jim, what about bernie sanders? do you think, is it possible that the party could have done better in sort of helping a coalescing around hillary clinton happening some time before now? >> no, look, this thing was always going to go a very long time. three or four months ago, people said, when's he going to get out he's going to go all the way, past the last primary, exactly as hillary clinton did in 2008. i think the party did, you know, what the party had to do. people are very focused going into the general election. the single most persuasive and

motiving thing right now is beating donald trump. and you're going to see democrats come behind that. and you'll have a united democratic party in a way that republicans -- >> well, hillary clinton says that he should -- she expects him to coalesce and get behind him, and that -- in the past, she did this. >> that's right. that's exactly right. >> and it seems like he keeps going and getting these huge crowds that are really showing a schism within the party. can party, can the dnc do something to maybe make this more of a cohesive effort? >> no, look, i think, you know, bernie's movement has been outside the party, outside the dnc. i don't think there's anything the dnc can do. bernie sanders has to do this. and he needs to, after the last primary, do what hillary did in '08. wrap his arms around hillary and say, we're off to the general election. and i think he'll do that. >> jon meacham? >> jim, to what extent do you think this campaign is going to be about the personality of the two nominees or the future

itself? you know, bill clinton has always said that the election's about the future, not the past. in your experience, are these two personalities now so dominant that it's about them or can they make a coherent case about what they're going to do for the country? >> john, it's a great question. every ten days or two weeks during the 2012 campaign, mostly in the middle of the night, bill clinton would call me and say, all presidential elections are always a referendum on the future. and that turned out to be very true. these swing voters will ask one question and one question only. what are you going to do to make my family's lives better? so this will be a referendum on the future. you know, the personalities are, of course, going to drive the media coverage, but people, when they're sitting out there in missoula, montana, the most important place in the world, they want to know what people are going to do to make their lives better. and that's what they're going to be looking at this race to do. >> steve kornacki. >> yeah, jim, that parallel

between 2016 and 2008, you said bernie sanders and his supporters are outside the party. i guess that's the key question here. with hillary clinton and her voters bringing them into the democratic fold in '08, you're talking about regular democrats here. they wanted to rally around the party ultimately. are sanders' voters different, though, in that way? >> i don't think so. look, i think these big rallies that mika was talking about earlier are really good for the party. i think bringing more people into the process is really good for the party. and in the end, people are going to look at this election, and be very clear about the historic difference between the two campaigns and i think it's going to help hillary with turnout in the general election. >> i'm sorry. i don't get that. how is that going to help hillary clinton with turnout in the general election? >> because we need more people voting. we need measure -- bernie's registering new voters -- >> but i don't know if they're going to vote for hillary. it sounds like -- >> are they transferring -- >> they could go to trump. >> oh, come on! there's not a chance someone who is going to vote for bernie

sanders in a primary is then going to go to donald trump in a general election. i promise you, that's not going to happen. >> mark -- >> jim, what are hillary clinton's two best original ideas on the economy? >> look, infrastructure investment that makes sense going forward that can create jobs. and two, you know, putting people together, like she's done in the senate. mark, as you know, i worked in the senate for over 15 years before i went to the white house. clinton had a reputation and a record of bringing people together to get things done. and that's exactly what she's going to do -- >> is either of those an original idea on the economy? >> oh, come on. she has laid out a very clear vision of where she wants to take this country. and that's the vision she'll run on in the fall. she'll be great. >> jim messina, thank you so much. we greatly appreciate it. steve kornacki, thank you. two words, anger management. >> is that a problem for me. >> you've go to bring -- >> i'm doing my best. >> go put the sweater on. >> it does help. >> it's really a thing that

holds him. >> it holds him together. it's like captain america's suit. you know? >> i just got "oh, come on'd". >> i did too. >> still ahead on "morning joe," this. >> it's like being in a burning building. the only way to get out is to jump out the window. you don't want to die, but you don't want to burn, either. i told my wife, i was like, i'm done. i don't want to burn anymore. i'm ready to jump out that window. >> it's a powerful new film that highlights the scourge of suicide that's haunting too, too many americans who are veterans. journalist soledad o'brien will be here with her must-see movie. that's straight ahead on "morning joe." ♪ the all-new audi a4, with available virtual cockpit. ♪ what are you doing? sara, i love you, and... [phone rings]

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if this program doesn't work, he's going to kill himself. so i am literally on borrowed time right now. >> it's like being in a burning building. the only way to get out is to jump out the window. you don't want to die, but you don't want to burn either. i told my wife, like, i'm done. i don't want to burn anymore. i'm ready to jump out that window. >> that was a look at "the war comes home" highlighting the deep struggles faced by so many american veterans. it is in select theaters tomorrow for a special one-day

event. joining us now, the executive producer of the film, ceo of starfish media group, soledad o'brien. i think a lot of people don't understand how pervasive the mental health disorders and ptsd that veterans bring home with them and it pervades their families. >> it was interesting to have an opportunity to embed with two young men. one who served in iraq and one in afghanistan as they come back and are really grappling with post-traumatic stress, trying to figure out how to get better. how to get to normal. that was delon and having him describe the feelings. they go to this program. it's a 5 1/2-day program where they go through different things. equine therapy. interesting to see what works for them, what doesn't. 5 1/2 days, you think it's not very much time but both men are

very changed. we wanted to explore these two young men and what they were able to do to try to get past their terrible traumatic stress. >> not just them but also their families. >> often we forget about the families. you saw his wife. she has two children. delon tells us in the film he started getting concerned because he had these visions of smashing his daughter's head with his hammer and it scared him. it got to the point before he went off to this program where he said i don't want to do something horrible, but i don't know what to do. he's a big drinker as well. >> often veterans look to self-medicate in the face of ptsd. let's take a look at how the film portrays that. >> the alcohol helps suppress my feeli feelings. and the video game takes me out

of this world. it removes me from reality. i've got a good family, good kids, good job. it doesn't mean anything to me. there's no attachment to it for me. i look at all this stuff around me. it's just empty. >> and it's so hard to -- i mean as you deal with people who struggle with abuse issues, it's so hard to figure out where it comes from. with ptsd there is a direct link. they're trying to get away from their thoughts. >> how do you best help someone who maybe went into the military with some challenges and now after -- >> everyone does. >> he was -- exactly. he never left the base but they were shelled constantly. he's having panic attacks all the time. after 5 1/2 days, big changes for him, and we follow these two guys. sleeping on their couches so we can see -- we really wanted to

see what it's like to live with post-traumatic stress and then come out on the other side. the second half of the documentary is a conversation with some of the leading experts and advocates. rubicon, bush institute, the dole institute. conversation about so how do you take this story and really relate it to all veterans as they are returning home. what do we do for them? >> has destigmatization taking place in terms of since vietnam? world war ii, no one talked about it. vietnam, they begin to. now it feels as though that we are a bit more honest about -- >> that's the case. more and yet both guys and everyone who actually attended that particular cohort that we shot would say that they were so embarrassed about telling anyone their problem. one just for personal shame and, two, really concerned there would be a backlash. that it would affect their career in some ways. i don't think fully stigma has

been really removed. >> the film "the war comes home" is in select theaters nationwide for a one-day special event tomorrow. soledad o'brien, thank you. congratulations on this great, grat work. >> thank you. still ahead -- is there a website? >> if you want to buy a ticket, fathomevents.com. >> thank you. the race to the bottom. donald trump and hillary clinton are already the most disliked presidential candidates ever. and that's before the onslaught of negative ads we're expecting this summer and fall. how low can their popularity go? "morning joe" is back in a minute. soon. i like the bride more than the groom. turquois dresses... so excited. did all her exes get invited? no one's got moves like uncle joe. ♪ should i stay or should i go? ♪

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excuse me, bartender. do you mind if i have one more drink with my old, very old, kind of dangerously old friend mr. bernie. >> sure. what do you want. >> i'll have a beer. a new brand something people are flocking to. something revolutionary and refreshing. something that draws huge crowds. >> and i'll have whatever beer no one likes but gets the job done. now, bernie, you should be proud, you know? you ran a damn good campaign. >> i'm running a good campaign. >> but don't worry. i promise i'll have a very special role for you in my administration. how would you like to be -- wait for it -- the senator from vermont. >> oh, hillary, i'll miss that

lack of charm. >> and good morning. >> and he wouldn't leave the bar. >> no. >> like last call. he said i don't want to leave. >> he's that guy. >> good morning. >> your alarm is going off. >> may 23rd. we have managing editor of bloomberg politics and co-host of "with all due respect" that airs at 6:00 on msnbc, mark halperin. >> how are you doing? >> excellent. like america, i'm in a dead heat. >> and then pulitzer prize winning historian jon meacham. >> i think an apology may be in order. >> the entire "d" block will be an apology. >> we owe him one. >> america is waiting. >> it might be me. i'll let you do it. >> you always bring up rebellion and we make fun of you nonstop. >> it's so boring. >> this weekend i had no choice when i was riding the -- writing an op ed in "the washington

post." alexander's warning to 2016 voters. and i'll be damned if -- >> rebellion. >> extraordinary. >> and hamilton and washington -- well, actually washington -- >> history is not boring. >> it's vindication. >> there's a lot of value in the history that you bring to the table. it's just sometimes you weave it in. it's just, you know, let's get to the point. also with us msnbc political analyst and professor at the university of michigan school of public policy, former democratic congressman harold -- >> never have that problem with me weaving in important facts. >> that's your strength. >> post revolution was broken by -- fever was broken by -- >> i can read this dramatically if you want. a lot going on. let's say one thing off the top, though. donald trump -- >> thought we just did. >> people said that donald trump couldn't win the nomination. and then they said he couldn't

grow. said he couldn't rise above like twitter wars, right? >> uh-huh. >> and i think he proved everybody wrong this weekend. he delivered what i think is a second gettysburg address -- lincoln's second inaugural on saturday. >> sarcasm, got it. >> snen is so negative, getting even worse as i get closer. just had two anti-trump losers with zero rebuttal from my team. turning off. i would have laughed two months ago. has anybody notified this guy he's about to lock down the republican nomination and he's going into a general election mode where he has to pick up -- why is he doing his mindless twitter feuds on saturday afternoon? >> why won't you let trump be trump, joe? >> because that trump loses. in a general election. we've seaid it. i've said it at least. maybe i'm dead wrong. what works in a republican primary and gains votes in a

republican primary often loses votes in the general election. and sort of this battling -- who wants a president that's going to be entering tweet wars with everybody repeatedly. "the washington post" on friday wrote some column saying, oh, the "morning joe" trump feud is over. i was like, there's a feud? he's just like shooting all around nonstop. tell me, are there people around him and in washington that are concerned that he continues to engage in twitter wars? >> no, i mean, look. going after the press has served him well. so i agree with you there's some things that probably he's done that won't help him. going after the press has served him well. >> you think it's okay for -- you think americans are going to want to elect a president who is engaging in twitter wars on a saturday afternoon? >> the two polls over the weekend suggest that this is going to be an election about

who the country doesn't want. >> right. >> and so jon meacham, if perhaps you released a policy position and started showing consistency on your policy positions instead of trading them out like we used to trade baseball cards, wouldn't that be a better way to spend a saturday afternoon? >> i think a lot of -- >> maybe i'm dead wrong here. >> i think you're right that it's not what you would think of as a conventional presidential temperament. but everything about the last ten months suggests that conventional presidential temperament may not work well. as you say at least in the primary. as mark says, 29% of a favorable review of him in one of the polls over the weekend. 35 for hillary, something like that. so that's a bright flashing light for him. >> a lot of time -- >> sorry, the question is, the

much vaunted pivot. when does that happen? >> i haven't seen it. i think that's the problem. harold ford festering resentments played very well in primaries, especially with one-third of primary voters on the right and on the left. as you get to the general election, this is like politics 101. at some point you have to be seen as growing and at least moderating temperamentally, don't you? >> he won't stop doing this follow he's punished in the polls. if the weekend polling, this snapshot is to be believed, it hasn't begun to affect him in a negative, in a punishing way yet. i'd agree with another thing. this is unconventional. people didn't think he would be here. if you are him you say you continue to do this until you are hit. if you are mrs. clinton you watch thus and say we can tempt this guy. we can bring him to a point where we can demonstrate to the

country forcefully and convincingly that he does not have the temperament to be president. until he's punished, he continues to do this. >> the saturday tweets will be overwhelmed by his selection of the running mate, the convention and the debates. >> does he keep tweeting after that? >> if he gets those three big things right, the tweets are dog whistles for targeted audiences. >> and they're really excited about newt gingrich. >> i still do not believe that's going to happen. >> so let's look at the numbers. maybe he knows what he's doing. 5 1/2 months to go before the presidential election, new polls this weekend show the race is neck and neck with donald trump narrowing hillary clinton's national lead. the new nbc/"wall street journal" poll shows clinton's 11-point lead in april is now just 3 points. 46% to 43%, within the margin of error. this as "the washington post"/abc poll puts trump slightly ahead of clinton with the race effectively tied, 46% to 44%.

an 11-point shift in trump's favor. the cbs news/yougov poll shows clinton and trump in a dead heat for critical must-win states. in florida, 43% to 42% for trump. and in ohio, clinton holds a five-point lead, 44% to trump's 39%. as she looks past her primary opponent and focuses on defining trump. >> my campaign is not going to let donald trump try to normalize himself in this period. if we don't respond to donald trump, which i am doing, as you have seen. i've said he is unqualified to be president. i believe that deeply. i'm going to keep focused on donald trump because i will be the nominee. i will be running against donald trump in the fall. and i do not want americans and, you know, good thinking republicans as well as democrats and independents to start to believe that this is a normal

candidacy. it isn't. >> meanwhile, donald trump and hillary clinton are already making history as the nbc/"wall street journal" poll's most unpopular likely presidential nominees ever. only 34% of registered voters have a positive opinion of clinton. 54% have a negative opinion. a new rating of minus 20 points. trump is down even lower. 29% have a positive opinion of him and 58% have a negative opinion. a negative rating of 29 points. >> those are mind-boggling numbers for may. n then you consider that hillary clinton is going to spend hundreds of millions of dollars attacking donald trump. and his character over the next several months, and donald trump has already said he's going to spend the rest of the campaign attacking hillary clinton and bill clinton and suggesting that hillary clinton sat by idly or enabled a man to sexually abuse

women. it's already out there saying it in may. those numbers are going to only go lower. >> this is not a shining city on a hill campaign by any means. even by our very low standards of presidential politics. to me, the most interesting thing over the weekend was senator clinton using the word normalize. clearly that's coming straight out of a lot of strategic sessions where they've learned, i think, the lesson, it was '04 when the bush campaign did so well attacking john kerry and the independent expenditure groups did it. so there's no phony war here. there's no pause. it's just going to go, go, go. and the battle, you know, really is here. whether trump -- does trump keep doing what he's done, which has gotten him this far? remember the old saying. insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. in his view, doing the same thing over and over may achieve

the same result. >> and sanity for him would be not doing the same thing over and over again because everybody said like i'm saying this morning, this doesn't make sense in the future. he's ignored them. he's done it, prevailed. he's looking great in a lot of these polls. what do those negatives show you, mark halperin? >> three things. one is that it's going to be possible for one of these candidates to win being very unliked by the country. statistically. >> and then being unable to govern for four years. >> that's going to be tough for either of them. there's room for another candidate to get into this race if it's someone well funded and can get on the ballot. the last thing is the clinton people, she doesn't want it to be normalized. trump can't possibly win because he's so unpopular. she's unpopular, too. >> it's unbelievable. >> very few democrats left around hillary clinton who say he can't win. they still think she'll win but there's very few who think it's just an um possibility. that's why she's going for this thing about don't normalize her. it would be better if people

just said, as flawed as she is, trump is unimaginable as president. and that's not where we are right now. >> this all paves the way for the next number. about half of voters would consider a third party in the presidential election. 47% tell the nbc/"wall street journal" poll they would be open to voting for a third option this november. while a majority, 51%, say they want a third party candidate to run. according to "the washington post"/abc poll. >> and that goes to what you were saying, your second point, which was when you have people this unpopular, it paves the way. we hear bob gates and everybody else say it's just too late. >> it could be too late -- it wouldn't be too late if the right person existed. that's the key. a human being who was popular with the country and who had issue positions that split the difference between the two would have a good chance to be a factor in the race and be tthen on the debate stage.

that person doesn't exist so far. >> you are talking about a duopoly that's going to be broken up. this would be the ideal year with these two candidates to break that duopoly. >> parties die or change significantly when they can't get majority consensus on the key issue of the day. the whigs fall apart over slaves. the 1960s, the parties flip on civil rights. today, seems to be there's not majority consensus in either party given sanders' continued success about globalization and its implications. and so if you look at it from sort of a high view, there should be a shift here. this is also as sure as heck feels like a year to me like '68, like '92 where it feels as though, doesn't it, that we'll get a minority president out of this. the idea that one of these folks is going to get above 50% feels very unlikely. still ahead, we know bernie sanders doesn't think much of

how the dnc has treated this campaign. >> not much at all. >> they've been a little unfair when you think about it. but now he's taken to the party chair's hometown and he's getting personal. we'll explain that ahead on "morning joe." what do doctors from

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donald trump cannot and will not ever become president of the united states. it's not just that trump, a billionaire -- or at least he tells us he's a billionaire. probably as broke as everybody else is, but -- >> both hillary clinton and bernie sanders are setting their sights on california's june 7th primary.

we' where 548 delegates are in play. clinton needs 85 more dell gots to secure the democratic nomination. over the weekend she suggested she's better prepared for the general election than sanders. >> it's also fair to say that i have been vetted and tested and i think that that puts me in a very strong position. >> you don't think bernie sanders has been vetted? you dont think this campaign against him has vetted him? >> let me say i don't think he's ever had a single negative ad ever run against him. and that's fine. but we know what we're going into and we know what it's going to take to win in the fall. and finally, i would say that polls this far out mean nothing. they certainly mean nothing to me, and i think if people go back n look, they really mean nothing in terms of analyzing what's going to happen. >> meanwhile, a new nbc news/"wall street journal" poll shows in a hypothetical matchup, bernie sanders leads donald

trump by 15 points. 54% to 39%. >> wow. >> meacham, you look completely physical. >> well, yeah. >> bernie outperforms hillary in just about every single poll. >> but it shows, in the end -- kasich outperformed trump in every election poll. >> little 1948 where you have henry wallace, harry truman, strom thurmond. the conventional democrat won but it was a wild year. i just think these numbers now in may suggest this -- i mean to state the obvious, this tremendous unrest and unhappiness in the country. and so we're just chatting. the idea that this will be in any way a conventional campaign and the conventional rules -- >> do you think a third party candidate still jumps in? >> i think mike bloomberg was the one guy who had the means

and the intellectual disposition to do it. i think the mayors made it very clear he doesn't want to spend a billion dollars to change the conversation. billionaires don't become billionaires by spending a billion. it's hard to imagine who the other person is. but i think a third party would be in -- certainly be in the 15 to 20-point range pretty quickly. >> her two-front war now is really a problem. a few weeks ago people were discounting it and saying she could pivot. he's going to california and beyond and the degree to which she now -- she really wants to stamp him out but she's not able to and he's clearly agitated, sanders is. >> speaking of, sanders spent the weekend campaigning around southern california where he argued he's the best candidate to take on trump in the fall. >> i say to every democrat in this country and those delegates who are going to the convention in philadelphia, if you want the

strongest candidate to make sure that trump does not become president, we are that campaign. >> another crowd of 7,000 people. >> 7,000 or so. >> relations have been tense between bernie sanders and the dnc. over the weekend, sanders announced his support for tim canova, the primary challenger of dnc chair and florida congresswoman debbie wasserman schultz. >> in florida, are you with wasserman schultz or her opponent? >> well, clearly i favor her opponent. his views are much closer to mine than is wasserman schultz's. and let me also say this, in all due respect to the current chairperson. if elected president, she would not be reappointed to be chair of the dnc. >> that wasn't a reach, was it? nobody was shocked when he said that. >> but that's antagonistic,

though, to jump in supporting her opponent. that's not just, you know, having a position. antagonistic point to prove a point. >> mrs. clinton was right in her interview about him not being vetted. there's a lot to be said for that. as much as mr. sanders has raised all these important issues, that point is right. with regard to chairwoman wasserman schultz. she bumbled this from the outset. i thought there should have been more debates. it looked obvious at times. she has a right to declare her support but as party chairman you have a set of responsibilities, and a strong case can be made that there's no reason to have antagonized sanders' campaign as it looks as if he has been, or the campaign has been from the outside. a lot of this could have been resolved earlier on. >> it's not resolved because they don't feel like she's even getting closer to where he stands on some of these issues. >> i'm talking about the relationship between the dnc and

mr. sanders. >> right. >> with regard to what you're saying. mr. sanders is now -- his opponent is 90 or less delegates away from securing a nom thags. he didn't win. there's a tradition when you doi don't win the nomination, you should at least sit and talk. i remember when jesse jackson was running. a late ron brown came to reconcile some of the differences between the two candidates. >> why don't they do that? >> the party has not done their part here. >> what's wrong with that? >> there's an ancient historical test. we can tell how much trouble a party is in by how many house primaries people get involved in. 1978, ronald reagan endorsed george w. bush's primary opponent in the midland congressional race and decided how the right was trying to take out the old man. and the fact that sanders is getting involved in a house primary suggests two things. one is the deep ideological --

>> which is the party chairman? >> he was about to run against reagan for president. >> and, two, you just got this sense that sanders is -- i think at some level, people want sanders to be this upton sinclair person, above politics. he's getting involved in a house primary in florida. coming up -- it could be another first for donald trump. as in the first republican nominee in decades to be heavily outspent by the democrat. >> that's going to happen. "the new york times" alex burns follows the money trail coming up on "morning joe." it's more than a network and the cloud. it's reliable uptime. and multi-layered security. it's how you stay connected to each other and to your customers. with centurylink you get advanced technology solutions, including an industry leading broadband network, and cloud and hosting services -

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hillary knows nothing about it. she has absolutely no idea, and she's taken care of by all the people putting up her money anyway. so even if she did, she wouldn't know what to do because she would say, i can't do that. i can't hurt these people. they gave me millions of dollars. >> donald trump is saying hillary clinton is in the pocket of her donors. >> he'll likely need his own big spending supporters to compete in the general election. as "the new york times" points out, the support -- >> by the way, alex burns is "the new york times." >> deep pocketed republicans are few and far between. joining us now, the co-author of that piece, "new york times" political reporter alex burns. also with us, former adviser to

senator rand paul, now a contributor to "time" magazine and msnbc political analyst. >> alex, there's been this narrative that's taken on a life of its own that the republican party, the republican establishment and everything is lining up behind donald trump and he's off to the races. i read your article this weekend, and sort of like a big stop sign there. a lot of the men and women that fund republican campaigns, the republicans have to have, there's still a never trump camp. >> they are. this is a big distinction when you talk about the republican establishment as this monolithsic group. the folks like paul ryan and members of his conference who have to run on a ticket with donald trump. it's not an option for them to sit out this campaign. the folks that write the checks and fund this party, and we found a dozen who have contributed more than $90 million -- >> i mean the big names, the ricketts, paul sr.

>> it totally is an option for them to say we'll take a pass on this one. that's what a lot of them are doing. this is really -- trump, obviously, scored big in the primaries playing to the gallery, going after the donors. in those debates he'd get booed and say those are the lobbyists and money men out there. >> they're kind of mad now. >> also the koch brothers who aren't as reliably republican when comes to giving to presidential candidates. they are also backing way off. >> right. people close to the kochs say they're not never trump. they're not this man must be defeated but they do sort of feel like we invest where we feel like we have ideological compatriots and this guy is not one of ours. >> you reached out to 50 key republican donors for your article. and while some had no comment, others had plenty to say. you wrote this. michael k.vlock, a connecticut investor who has given nearly $5 million to republicans at the federal level since 2014

considers mr. trump a dangerous person. he's an ignorant, amoral, dishonest and manipulative misogynist, phil apderring, hyperlitigeuous isolationist. >> basically being attacked like that. i'll mark you down as undecided. >> definitely. >> well, donald trump will have him set for re-education camp making comments like that. >> so what is your sense about the republican establishment? is it meekly going to line up behind donald trump some are we going to see more of this? >> we're seeing the political class really line up around donald trump. >> are they scared of the voters? >> it's expediency. more people are choosing power over principles. with the donor class, they have an option. one quote i found telling was one big donor said donald trump's worth so much money. why am i going to give him so much money? he's worth $10 billion. >> they are using that now against him.

if he's worth 10 billion he can just pay for it himself. >> the holdouts will exist. as long as trump looks like he can win, he is going to bring some people, more people on board. that's going to be for a lot of people the big differentiator. if they build a financial organization, which they are still trying to do that's a safe place to give money, i think they will get more of these people. >> that's a big if, though. you need to create some kind of platform where donors feel comfortable writing these giant checks. t. boone pickens was to host a big event for one of the trump super pacs. this is where -- this is one of the places where trump just operationally lags behind a more conventional campaign. >> pennsylvania has voted democrat in every presidential election since 1992. but this year donald trump could change all that. the latest poll from the keystone state shows the race there is essentially tied.

hillary clinton's one-point lead right inside the margin of error. >> you know what i've called pennsylvania since 1992? fool's gold. every four years they go in and say they're going to win. and every four years around october 15th they pull up the stakes and kind of sneak out at night when nobody is looking after they've wasted a lot of money. >> if there were a governors race between donald trump and hillary clinton, who would you bid on in a governors race. >> maybe trump. i don't know. but in the presidential race, good luck being a republican that's not down 400,000 when you get out of philadelphia. you tell me that donald trump is going to be down 400,000? i don't think there will be enough votes in western and central pennsylvania to make up for all the people that are going to go out around philadelphia to stop him, right? and does trump get the fabled philadelphia suburbs? >> how did pat toomey get elected to the senate? >> you look at the philadelphia suburbs that are supposed to be

the swing areas. trump is getting absolutely slaughtered with suburban women and nonworking women, working women. all the people that decide in effect who wins bucks county, montgomery county and all those other counties, right? >> to find out what's going to in pennsylvania -- >> i wish we had somebody there. >> let's go to los angeles where our msnbc correspondent jacob soboroff is. >> show us your hands. >> los angeles is where you always go to find out what's happening in pennsylvania, guys. >> keep your hands to yourself. you took a look at why this reliably blue state could possibly go red. what did you find? >> joe, you mentioned western pennsylvania. how red does western pennsylvania ultimately get? check this map out. it's been traditionally very, very blue since 1992. mika, you said it. democratic presidents all the way but shifting redder and redder and redder every presidential election since.

so that little highlighted county, beaver county. i went there in western pennsylvania. aliquippa to be specific. steel town. former home of j & l steel to see what's going on. a big transformation. you'd be surprised. take a look. these trains and this town were once reliably delivering steel across america and boast democratic politicians. but this blue state could possibly turn red. where are we? what is this place? >> downtown aliquippa. >> who are your constituents? >> staunch democrats. aliquippa is a staunch democratic town. always blue collar. blue steel. >> i heard beaver county for the first time ever has two republican county commissioners? and one democrat. what happened. >> they don't believe in the politics anymore. they don't believe in the candidates anymore. >> this is downtown aliquippa. one time a bustling place. >> it looks pretty dead. >> well, it's just the way it is. it's gone.

everything is gone. these were all bars, restaurants, shops, markets. everything was here. >> and now what's going on downtown? >> now you can see what's going on downtown. not a lot. >> not a lot. >> this is the tunnel that, what, 11,000 people would come through every day? >> yep, right here. >> aliquippa industrial park. >> everything out here was steel. >> the whole valley. >> this is a big old empty lot. this is where you used to work? >> over here, yeah. >> when you look at this now and it looks like we're walking on the surface of the moon, what goes through your head? >> a lot of people got financially destroyed when the mills were gone. >> how many people worked out here? >> i think at one time like 13,000, i believe, worked in the mill. >> 13,000 people. if you polled those 13,000 people in its heyday, what would the politics be at that time? democrats? >> a lot of democrats, right. >> you are a hillary clinton guy? >> i likehillary, but things

may change when it comes to the election. >> you could go trump? >> i don't know. pennsylvania is normally a blue state. >> normally. maybe not this time. >> he said i'm going to do this, do this, build jobs. >> and then look at this. >> pretty unheard of stuff. i talked to some lifelong union members, too. we'll have those guys later today on msnbc who are considering going over to donald trump. check out these numbers. between 2013 n 2015, 1,170 democrats switched over to republicans over that two-year period. in the first three months of this year alone, 1,135. to joe's point, that's not 400,000 coming out of philadelphia, but it is sizable numbers. way bigger than we've seen before. how fast is this all going to go down? how many are going to make that switch? >> jacob, great piece. thank you. the story -- >> that was a story. >> the story of beaver county is the story of too many across

america. drive across the northeast especially and one town after another looking like that. and the question is for republicans, you know, and for hillary clinton, what do you say to reach these voters? >> it's one of the striking -- we've all focused on trump's appeal to these communities in the primaries, the towns where he did best were often these former industrial towns that had fallen on hard times. these used to be backbone democratic communities. it is striking that just even at this early stage in the campaign, we're not even really looking at hillary clinton as super competitive with those voters. it speaks to the difficulty she's had articulating an economic message. >> when there were all the jobs there it was a reliably democratic area. now the jobs have left. looks like a ghost town, and you have a lot of people in towns like this actually supporting either donald trump or bernie sanders. that "new york times" piece i talked about all the time where

they said look at the towns where trade deals devastated the local economies and they are voting in large part for trump or sanders. >> it's come down to so much. this is a free trade election on so many levels. i really thought it was going to be an election about immigration and the wall. while it is, free trade is really going to be the issue that this fall comes into hot focus. especially states like michigan and you look at what happened there and could donald trump really make a play in michigan. >> and even when you talk about immigration, you know, why are there a lot of people. why does "the wall street journal," why do a lot of conservatives, why do a lot of people on wall street, why do free trade democrats want very liberal immigration policies? cheap labor. what does cheap labor do? it drives down wages for working class americans which really goes into the calculation of people in these communities being against immigration.

>> and that's where i think the republican party catered too much to the donor class and ignored these concerns of our working class voters. that's part of the reason we're stuck in a civil war right now. be it too disconnected from the people actually shoeting f levo. >> shea's rebellion. >> a republican party that's had been economic policy that's been so disconnected from working class americans for the past 20, 25 years. >> we may have a democratic party that's got the same problems. alex burns and elise jordan, thanks. president obama confirms the killing of taliban's top leader. plus, expectations are growing over a june interest rate hike. and it's already affecting the markets. we're back in a moment. w i am. red head fred. ultra rare. i collect these too. nah, these are for my dog because he can never decide which one he wants until he gets home, so... presenting the american express blue cash everyday card with cash back on purchases and no annual fee. my only concern is that this is where we put food.

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there is only one place where real and amazing live. seaworld. real. amazing i'm one of the students at vanderbilt. time now for business before the bell with sara eisen. what your watching this morning, interest rate hike? >> watching an interest rate hike.

also potential megamerger. we're talking about behayer approaching monsanto for a takeover. if this happens it could be a $62 billion deal. one of the biggest foreign takeovers ever, creating the number one seed and crop company in the world. it's been tough out there for seed companies. we've been talking about the decline in oil and other commodities like grains. that's slashed farmers' increase. they're spending less on seeds. it's been a vicious cycle that's hurt this industry and led to a lot of mergers and acquisitions. we'll see if monsanto responds. if they join, 36% of u.s. corn seeds would be controlled. we'll see if regulators bless that deal. and the federal reserve, that is topic du jour on wall street. coming off four down weeks for the dow on this idea that the fed may ruin the party this summer by raise interesting rates. the cheap money can't go on

forever. as the economy gets healthier, they're talking more and more about higher interest rates. but that has spooked the market. janet yellen will be speaking at harvard on friday. and ahead of that today, we have for instance three different fed speakers. some of those regional fed presidents, all their words will be parsed. new home sales out on tuesday. the fed has dominated this activity. we'll see if investors are going to be okay with more talk of coming interest rates. >> sara eisen, thank you very much. big news from overseas as president obama continues his pivot to asia visiting vietnam this morning. that's next on "morning joe."

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president obama's traveling overseas this morning. it's his tenth trip to asia, but his first in vietnam. here's nbc's ron allen. he's traveling with the president. >> ron? >> good morning. the president was very blunt in his comments about taking out that taliban leader saying it didn't reflect any change in strategy. going after and trying to send a message to those who would put american lives at risk. this particular individual was an obstacle to peace. that he didn't want to be involved in the peace talks going on in afghanistan to solve that longrunning conflict. the other big news in vietnam, the lifting of this arms embargo. the lifting of the ability of the vietnamese to buy weapons, military lethal weapons on the market. something that would have been unthinkable not that long ago.

the president saying it's an indication of how far the relationship has come between vietnam and america. this is a relationship that's not about the war anymore. it's all about trade. it's about business. in addition to the lethal arms sale announcement, there are also big deals announced with boeing and other american companies, billions of dollars. that's what the relationship is about now, business. it's not about the war so much. mika? >> with us now, former executive director of the graham talent wmd commission, dr. evelyn farcas. from the atlantic council. they don't really like her. they say you can be with us, but you've got to be a nonresident. stay away. >> he's not a resident but he has an office. >> don't have an office? >> i don't have an office. >> mika can get you an office. >> i'll work on that. >> let's talk about the belated

pivot to asia. >> what about belated? >> it's not belated. they've been working on this for some time. >> y they have. >> they've ignored asia and you know it. >> this is really good. building our partnerships, building our alliances. building trade relations. strengthening security. >> cuba, iran and vietnam, this, boy, this is what we dreamed of. >> this is what it's all about. i think the president sees opportunities. he's created opportunities for himself with iran, with cuba and with vietnam. right on. but the thing i have to say here is it's not just about the immediate or long game. the long game is building these partnerships. if you're running a company and you are building these long-term agreements with other companies to build your market share, blah, blah, blah in asia and you're not paying attention to what's happening in the home office which is, let's say there's a mass epidemic of middle management suicides, then you're in trouble. where is the mass epidemic of

middle management suicide? syria. so i think that we need to deal -- >> explain that. >> it's great the president is doing the long game, and he has to do it. it's a g-7 meeting, but i really think those asian leaders are looking for u.s. leadership. >> the meltdown of syria continues. >> meltdown continues. and it's getting worse. the opposition just said in 48 hours we're done with the truce and the russians and syria have been ignoring the truce anyway. bosnia, circa 1994, you know, where you had actually safe areas and -- >> actually, it's -- >> a lot of talk. >> it's much worse. jon meacham, when he were going into the balkans to prevente en is genocide, there weren't 200,000 murdered. what we all rose to fight against in the early 1990s. >> double the number of refugees. >> double the number of

refugees. >> so as a differing definition of our national interest. a humanitarian and security interest in kosovo. how do you think the president should be defining the national interest in syria? >> so as you said, there are multiple dimension. right now i'm talking about the humanitarian crisis. this isn't funny. this is like bosnia, lycike like rwanda. we also have to deal with the dynamic political lie. what we're doing with russia at the negotiating table. we don't have enough leverlever. we're doing some work there on the ground but it's not enough. obviously not motivating the russians and syrians to be serious about compromise. they're pushing full steam ahead with their military plan which is to get as much of the territory and maintain control for assad in syria. >> what is saudi arabia doing today that's inconsistent with american interests around the world? >> well, that's sort of a trick question. >> more specific -- >> it seems they're not doing

very much to help. i'm wondering if you think they're doing anything to help. >> what are some things they are doing? >> they are part of the coalition. but i'd argue they're paying more attention to yemen. they have their reasons for doing that, but they need to do more in syria. i think, honestly, it's not just about military force and putting pressure on syria and russia militarily but we need to threaten this part of the plan and economic sanction and one that goes beyond what we do with the russians in the context of ukraine. something with the middle eastern allies saying you guys are supporting assad. we already have sanctions on the u.s. books. they can join us. we can sanction russia for what they're doing there. >> short term, long term. in the short term, saudi arabia, egypt, the uae. they fill the trade by barack obama and this administration. they've not been treated the way they expect to be treated. if you look at "the new york times" article yesterday about how kosovo has been turned into a hot bed of jihadism.

>> i think that's a little overstated. >> because of saudi arabia expenditures to promote that sort of ideology. it's something they just have to stop. >> dr. evelyn, you need to come back. >> i'd love to come back. >> they may not like you at the atlantic council but you can always be a resident fellow here. >> a chair and a mug. >> not the mug, but the chair. >> we're calling you. and ian is going to -- >> what do we say about ian? >> you know what we say about ian. he's such a neocon. you give him three takes to invade canada. it's more than a network and the cloud.

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were you a pettycoat junction guy? >> more of a beverly hillbillies. >> i feel so sorry for your students, meacham. how do they not glaze over the minute you start talking? >> if you -- >> if you read "the washington post," you'll learn all about shea's rebellion. >> who wrote that piece? >> so who needs your class? >> that's what we learned today. >> yeah, welcome back to "morning joe." time to talk about what we learned today. >> i need a new history professor. >> i learned that if you talk about shea's rebellion enough, even congressman scarborough will some day put it in "the washington post."

>> just keep talking about it. >> jon meacham is an egg head who has crammed his head full of meaningless facts and should know more about pettycoat junction. >> sounds like a lot of people we know. >> billy joe? >> bobby joe. >> we're going to go now to the rage. steve kornacki. he's known in the building as the rage. kicks desks. says he's going to torch this place. steve kornacki right now. >> all right. good morning. i'm steve kornacki. we are now 169 days until the election. topping our agenda right now, a dead heat. hillary clinton's double-digit lead over donald trump gone. republican voters rallying around trump now that he's going to be their candidate. some of the party's top donors are still refusing to sign up. >> i don't care at all. these are people that won't have access to the white house, and they understanat