ney chatting at the baggage claim all day. geico®. fifteen minutes could save you fifteen percent or more on car insurance. all right, good afternoon to you, i'm steve kornacki here in new york. right now, president obama is doing what some might call an attempt at a victory lap on the economy. he is speaking right now in indiana. he's trying to counter republican attacks on his administration's economic policies and other policies in general, from immigration to unemployment. now elkhart is a particularly significant location for the president. he was there seven years ago to tout his economic stimulus package in 2009, just three weeks into his presidency. you remember that was the height of the fall-out from the crash in 2008. things a little bit different in elkhart today as he's been

touting this afternoon, unemployment has fallen from 19%, back in february of 2009, all the way down to just over 4% right now. the economy has been the point of emphasis in president obama's speech today, but also he did bring up donald trump. >> the pundits, they say one of the reasons the republican party has picked the candidate that it has -- don't boo him. you know, we're voting, not booing. >> so that's president obama weighing in on donald trump. katy tur is out in california. she has been covering the trump campaign. katy, obviously donald trump in california ahead of that primary there next week, an uncontested primary for him. but really, right now, the question for donald trump, it's the general election. it's dealing with hillary clinton, his likely opponent and president obama playing some role in this campaign as well. >> reporter: and steve, for the first time on the campaign trail, hillary clinton called

donald trump a fraud. and that's relating to the unsealed documents with trump university, that have been coming out in the past couple days. hundreds of playbook documents from trump university, outlining how his salespeople aggressively up-sold potential students to buy his seminars. seminars that started out as free and were upsold to $1500 and eventually $35,000. a class action lawsuit right now, alleging fraud from donald trump, for that university, saying that it didn't deliver what donald trump had promised. in the ads, he says he hand-picked a number of the teachers, the lecturers, the speakers, as part of these seminars, but in his own sworn test -- deposition, relating to this case, he admits he had nothing to do with who was chosen for leadership roles in this university. a number of students and teachers coming out, saying that

they were dissatisfied with it, saying that it was essentially a shakedown, more involved in taking money away from the uneducated and the elderly, rather than actually educating people how to take advantage of the real estate market. remember, this is coming in 2009, 2010, at the bottom of the recession, during the housing crisis, when many were looking for a way to earn an extra buck during this downturn. in the lawsuit, in the playbooks, donald trump encourages people to take advantage of foreclosures. he also encourages people to pay for the seminars using credit cards, someone else's money is how it's described in those playbooks. now on the campaign trail, as this is one of the only things that you have out there, pointing to donald trump's record, because he wasn't a former politician, he isn't a former civil servant, hillary clinton and the democrats are aggressively using this to paint

donald trump as a fraud himself, a huxster who is trying to shake down the american public like they say he shook down his students at trump university. steve? >> katy tur in california, shades of the obama campaign against mitt romney in 2012 in how the democrats are framing this. talking with elise jordan. this debate over trump university, here's an issue where the democrats think they have trump, an opportunity here. katy tur sharing the details. there's also this, from the 2012 lawsuits, just coming to light right now. a former sales manager for trump university testified that it was a fraudulent scheme and it preyed on the elderly to separate them from their money. here's how hillary clinton is now talking about this on the campaign trail. let's take a listen.

>> trump and his employees took advantage of vulnerable americans, encouraging them to max out their credit cards, empty their retirement savings, destroy their financial futures, all while making promises they knew were false from the beginning. this is just more evidence that donald trump himself is a fraud. he is trying to scam america the way he scammed all those people at trump u. >> that's hillary clinton in just the last hour going on the offensive on this issue, and we should say, donald trump is responding now. he's putting out his own side of the story. here's a video trump's putting out today, saying, hey, most of the customers at trump university, he says, they were satisfied. >> i must tell you that the courses that i took were

outstanding. >> it was an amazing learning experience. for me, the teachers were very positive with me. they were very patient with me in the class, and they were very helpful. >> we never felt pressured to do anything we didn't want to do. we never felt pressured to go in a direction we didn't want to go, sign anything we didn't want to sign, pay for anything we didn't want to pay for. it was truly just offered and an opportunity that we took. >> elise jordan, a little taste of what both sides are saying there. the democrats think this is a powerful weapon. do they have a point? >> i think it's the smartest line of attack if it's donald trump. i think republicans should have used it earlier in the primary season, republican opponents for the nomination. this is, i think, the weakest part of his bio, the fraud with trump university. he also had a vitamin line, a line of vitamins -- >> what makes this so different? >> i think it cuts into the core of the narrative of who donald trump is. it challenges that he's a

successful real estate billionaire and instead he's just a con artist fraud. i think definitely the clinton camp has the resources to do what a lot of republican candidates and campaigns couldn't do during the primaries because they didn't have the money. clinton is going to be able to afford the best forensic accountants to go in and to really investigate, is donald trump as wealthy as he says he is, what are his business deals, is it all above board. so he has to be prepared for that scrutiny. >> shades of mitt romney, the obama campaign in 2012, what they did in 2012, they took his business background, venture capitalist, they pushed this idea of vulture capitalist, saying he made money on the backs of working everyday people. >> they were successful with that narrative. this is about just trump university, kind of shady, doesn't look like they got much credentials, overpriced, for the

price of ivy league tuition. >> when you look at donald trump versus mitt romney, the image of mitt romney, the way he carried himself, he would casually mention the sports owners that he liked. he said things, he did things that maybe made it easy to attach that charge to him. trump's appeal has been a lot more sort of blue collar in this campaign than romney's was. and i think that's why he's winning too. he's able to talk to everyone and talk at their level, not talking down to people. the number one rule in politics is, you can't make people think that you think they're smarter than they are. so any candidate that's lecturing down, it's just a lose-lose proposition. i think what trump has been so good at, he speaks to everyone, and he doesn't exclude anyone. well, except for -- you know, latinos, women, anyone. >> there's always asterisks to

the exceptions. also we got a new quinnipiac poll out today, it shows what we've seen in a lot of other polls. this is a tight general election race. hillary clinton probably a few points ahead. but i keep thinking a month ago, you had democrats saying donald trump is the dream opponent, this is the best opponent hillary clinton could have possibly drawn. you had the never trump crowd saying this guy has no prayer in a general election, why are we even bothering to hold the election. we got a real race here. >> i think it's definitely going to be a real race and you probably have more insight than i do on how you think hillary clinton's poll numbers will change once she's really the only democrat and bernie sanders is out. but i think it's a huge mistake for people to take donald trump casually and not to treat this as if it's going to be a genuinely tough and hard-fought race. >> elise, thanks for the time. you're looking live right now at pictures of bernie sanders, where is he? in palo alto, california, making the case to a community panel that this democratic race is not over yet.

that's what he's saying, and this is the first of two events sanders is going to be having in california today. a rally kicking off about 90 minutes from now. nbc's chris jansing is out there for us. so chris, we got a new poll out in california in the last day, has hillary clinton up by 13 points. we know the clinton people badly want to avoid getting a loss there. we know bernie sanders would really like to get the win. if bernie sanders can't win california next week, does that maybe change his calculation for how he plays those summer months leading up to the convention? >> reporter: yeah, it absolutely does. i just talked to jeff weaver, and he told me they're really just starting to have those conversations. they've been so focused on this campaign and on california. but they have started to talk about that, and he said whatever scenario they discuss, it is dependent on how things go on tuesday night. and that's, in part, why you see hillary clinton deciding not to do some things she planned to do in new jersey, but she's going to be coming back here to california.

why today not only does he have two events in palo alto, but four overall. he's absolutely tireless. and he's making the case that he believes that even after tuesday night, hillary clinton will not be the nominee. faced with the actuality of the numbers that you've talked about, steve, that i've talked about, jane sanders, his wife and obviously one of his closest advisers was pushed on that point by andrea mitchell earlier today. here's what she said. >> the way to win the democratic nomination, during the primary season is to get 2,026 pledged delegates. and bernie's right, it doesn't look like either one of them will be able to reach that threshold after all the primaries are taken. then it goes to the convention, and then at the convention, the super delegates weigh in. our concern is that -- i've heard chris matthews and others

say, we're going to call it at 5:00. well, that's not okay, especially when montana, north dakota, south dakota, and california are all still voting and it is not factually correct. that's all we're saying. >> and the problem obviously for the sanders campaign is they don't want people to stay home. they don't want people to think there's no chance. that's why bernie sanders' message is, i am going to the convention no matter what. but at the top, you hit on the key point. what does he do between tuesday and the convention? besides obviously there's still voting that will be done in the district of columbia, and that is tbd. will he do more rallies like this, if you take a look, still getting big crowds out here, in spite of everything. it's a hot day out here. lots of hats and even umbrellas. some people are hiding in trees behind me. but this is not ending here. it's going to continue. the question is, as you say, how and what happens here in

california, will to a large extent dictate that, steve. >> chris jansing at that bernie sanders event in palo alto, california. thanks for that. so, california going to be crucial to how this particularic ra -- democratic race goes. a poll yesterday put the gap at 13. where is it really? 5:00 we'll unveil brand-new nbc news/maris poll numbers on the democratic race in california. that's less than an hour from now. brand-new numbers and give you a real good sense of exactly where the democratic race stands. we'll take a quick break. and after that, the latest on today's deadly shooting at ucla. we'll head out to the campus right after this. ♪ headache? motrin helps you be an unstoppable kind of mom.

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two people are dead on the campus of the university of california los angeles. the lapd says the shooting at the university's engineering building was an apparent murder-suicide. officers are continuing to search buildings out of an abundance of caution and classes have been canceled for the remainder of the day. steve patterson is on the scene. what are the details we know right now? >> reporter: well, steve, there was this moment about two hours ago, where the whole tenor and mood of the situation seemed to change. we were in the staging area, where there were tactical teams on the ground, helicopters in the skies, sirens whizzing by and then all of a sudden that stopped. we got word from the lapd police chief that this was a confirmed murder-suicide, or at least an apparent one. we were on campus and we got the information that basically this happened self-contained in an engineering building, engineering building number four, where they found two male

victims with gunshot wounds. three bullets between them. one gun recovered on campus. again, police, out of an abundance of caution scoured campus. there were teams swarming all over the place, sirens, helicopters in the sky, boots on the ground, going in and out of rooms, in between buildings, doing door checks, just, again, to make sure that campus was safe. so now lapd, with this investigation, we are again told nbc has multiple sources, saying that there was a suicide note. although what the relation between the shooter and the suspect, what the relation between the two victims is, is not known at this time. it's not known if these were two students, if these were two faculty members. we do know that this was a small office building, again, in that engineering building, but the good news here is that this was all self-contained. we got reports earlier that this may have spread out all over campus. when something like this happens, there are multiple reports, but the lapd now

confirming this was just one building, one incident and two people unfortunately dead. steve? >> all right, steve patterson on campus at ucla. thanks for that. straight ahead, he'll bring you the most important number of the day. you want to see a third-party candidate on the stage this fall? you're gonna want to pay attention to this number. it's next. owen! hey kevin. hey, fancy seeing you here. uh, i live right over there actually. you've been to my place. no, i wasn't...oh look, you dropped something. it's your resume with a 20 dollar bill taped to it. that's weird. you want to work for ge too. hahaha, what? well we're always looking for developers who are up for big world changing challenges like making planes, trains and hospitals run better. why don't you check your new watch and tell me what time i should be there. oh, i don't hire people. i'm a developer. i'm gonna need monday off. again, not my call. try duo fusion!ing antacids? new, two in one heartburn relief. the antacid goes to work in seconds... and the acid reducer lasts up to 12 hours in one chewable tablet.

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gary johnson got 1% of the vote last time. i watched that whole situation, it was really pretty disgraceful. i think it's a total fringe deal. i think he's a fringe candidate, if you want to know the truth. >> i think trump had it nailed today. i think we've been fringe candidates our whole life. republicans winning in heavily democrat states, being fiscally conservative, socially liberal, he nailed it today. thanks, donald. >> well, donald trump going after gary johnson there. who?

well, he's the libertarian nominee for president. you saw him there responding. next to him, william weld. this is the most incredible libertarian party ticket in history. these are two former governors, johnson from new mexico, weld from massachusetts, two former, two-term governors with an opportunity maybe to make more noise than we've ever seen a libertarian ticket make before. donald trump saying they'll be fringe candidates, which is what they've been in the past. but we've never seen an election when the two major likely party candidates have the kind of negatives that donald trump and hillary clinton have. so there's an opportunity for the libertarians and it brings us to our most important number of the day. and that number is 15. why is 15 so important for libertarians? 15 is the percent you need to be getting if you're a third-party candidate in the polls, if you want to make the debate stage this fall. think about it. it's september, october, there's a hundred million people watching. you got clinton on stage, you got trump on stage.

if you're the third-party candidate and you want to have any prayer of being a factor on election day, you gotta be on that stage. so can the libertarians hit 15%? there's good news and bad news. here's the good news. maybe this is surprising, but check this out. two pollsters have included gary johnson in the last couple weeks. he's running at 10%, hitting double-digits in two polls already. you got to get to 15 this fall, but that's a pretty good start for gary johnson and the libertarians. what's the bad news? one, these two pollsters have put them in the polls. a lot of other pollsters, nbc included right now, are not including gary johnson. so you're not going to hit 15% if you can't get into the polls in the first place. that's the first challenge for the libertarians, can they get included in the polls. check this out, quinnipiac, brand-new national poll today, they did include gary johnson and went a step further, also including this woman, jill stein is her name. she's going to be the candidate

of the green party on the left. what do you see here? a tight race, clinton and trump, you see johnson getting some. you see stein getting some. the reality is, a lot of people use the third-party candidates to really say, none of the above. i don't like the democratic candidate, i don't like the republican candidate. i just want to vote for somebody else. if you give them more than one option, they'll start to spread their votes out. so if you're the libertarians, if you're gary johnson, you want to hit 15%, that's the other key. pollsters, you want them to include you, but you don't want them to include anybody else. starts diluting the vote, gets tough to get to 15%. for historical context, you know george bush sr, bill clinton, remember this guy, ross perot, 1992, the only third-party candidate in modern times to actually make it onto that debate stage in the fall with the two major party nominees. that's what gary johnson and the libertarians are trying to achieve. you all remember this photo,

ronald reagan. who the heck is this? i'll give you a prize if you can tell me. any guesses? that's john anderson, congressman from illinois. he ran as an independent in 1980. he's the only other independent to get onto a big debate stage. jimmy carter, the incumbent president, he refused to appear on the same stage with anderson. reagan got one debate with anderson. those are the only two who have ever made the big debate stage in the fall. if ever there were a year when another third-party candidate could find their way there, you gotta think, this is it in 2016, when all the impossible starts happening. it's our most important number of the day. 15. if a third-party candidate will be there this fall, they gotta get to 15%. watch that in the months ahead. up next, the trump campaign national co-chair is going to join us, amid all the new

attacks from the clinton campaign over trump university. stay tuned.

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well, we played it for you earlier in the show. hillary clinton in newark, new jersey, going hard after donald trump and calling him a fraud. over the controversy surrounding trump university. let's go right to it. we got new unsealed court documents from the legal actions surrounding trump university. hillary clinton seeing a real opportunity here. >> yeah, and steve, i actually look back at the 2012 democratic attacks on mitt romney being instructive. in 2012, it wasn't that the obama campaign was saying that mitt romney was a wealthy guy, but they were saying he was a wealthy guy who built his wealth at the expense of others and that his policies would pretty much do the exact same thing if he became president.

what you're seeing from hillary clinton today and her campaign jumping all over this trump university thing, basically they're arguing that donald trump ended up making a whole lot of money at the expense of average people who ended up having to go into credit card debt, and others to be able to get these classes and this kind of real estate instruction. so you're seeing what could end up being a replay of 2012 where the clinton campaign is saying donald trump not only was wealthy, but ended up building his wealth at the expense of other people. >> we'll see if that 2012 strategy works in 2016 against another rich republican candidate. some people say the appeal might be a little different for donald trump. we'll see. mark murray, thank you for that. i want to turn now to msnbc chief legal correspondent ari melber. you've been going through all the unsealed documents we're talking about. we should point out, testimony from this case involves trump university students who say they were defrauded. and also we're hearing from donald trump today as well. what can you tell us? >> that's right, steve. a lot of what we're seeing are declarations which you get

duelling in these type of lawsuits where some people say i was defrauded, this is why i was tricked. then you have other customers who say this was fine, this was positive, this was how it worked. what we are seeing on the trump side is a new video basically trying to showcase people who were happy with it. let's play that. >> i must tell you that the courses that i took were outstanding. >> we made a goal to do a deal and get our money back. within 60 days we hit our goal, bought a property at auction. we sold the property and made approximately the same money we spent on trump university back. >> they told us, if you feel you're over your head or you feel you're not going to use these techniques and leave your books on the shelf, check out of the class now and we'll refund you. >> there you see, according to the trump organization, those are real people. trump university did end, but these are past recollections of what people liked about it.

jason nicholas, a former trump university employee says, look, they told consumers trump would actively be involved in trump u. this was not true. he was not in the university as far as i can tell. i saw him one time for five to ten minutes. here's another former trump employee. from the very beginning, trump university speakers told students to raise their credit card limits so that they could purchase real estate and also the next level of trump university seminar. i think, at the end of the day, nobody begrudges a company trying to aggressively recruit customers and make money. that's sort of the american way. the real question in the case is whether this was done fraudulently, deceptively, and you obviously have a difference of opinion among people there. the case will be settled after the election in november, when they have a real trial. trump said, you know, in his big combative press conference, that

he didn't want to settle it, pay it out early to make it go away. that's why it will go to trial. long before then, voters will have to look at this, look at duelling testimony, duelling story lines and see whether there's something here they want to advance and promote. hey, donald trump runs aggressive businesses, maybe we need that for our economy and country, or whether this type of business model gives them pause. >> that's interesting, ari. it will be in the air during this campaign as it plays out this summer and fall. ari melber, thank you for that. you heard earlier hillary clinton bringing up trump university in newark, new jersey. she also incorporated it into a broader attack on donald trump. take a listen. or maybe we won't be taking a listen. i guess we don't have that one. but trust me, she did. and on that note, let's bring in sam clovis, the national co-chair for the donald trump campaign. thanks for taking a few minutes. let me just ask you, we heard

from ari, some of the things in the unsealed documents, the same sales manager is quoting another document. he says he thinks trump university was a fraudulent scheme, that preyed on the elderly and the uneducated. you're looking at the same stuff we're looking at right now. does any of this smell fishy to you? >> well, it depends. we're in litigation. i think that this is a little premature to make comments or analysis of this. certainly i'm going to be cautious because i've not seen the documents. just what you've reported here. and based on that, i'm going to reserve judgment on where we are. i will tell you, having been an administrator, the dean of a college of business that had an adult program very similar to this, there were often times we had students who were dissatisfied with these issues, but still we ran about a 95% approval rating through that

institution. we struggled with a lot of discontent because a lot of times what happens is, people have an expectation to just show up and not have to do any work, or to -- or whatever they expect something to be handed to them and in fact, they have to put out effort or do some things. so sometimes what it delivered does not meet the expectations of some students. in those cases, they want their money back. and i'm not saying that, because i don't know the circumstances and i don't care to speculate, but i will say, this is not uncommon in this kind of situation. >> and i take your point, look, it's ongoing, it's playing out. we stand to learn more about this as the weeks and months progress. but let me just ask you, in broader terms here, the things that are being alleged in these documents, about the idea of donald trump overseeing a program that, according to the allegations here, went after people specifically trying to get their retirement money, specifically going after people to use their credit cards.

again, the accusation here, they preyed on the elderly and uneducated. it wasn't an accredited institution. if these things bear out in what we learn, will that change your opinion of donald trump? >> my opinion of donald trump will not likely change, because i see this as really an anom louse thing, ba united states this is not consistent with the donald trump that i know. so i'll just leave it at that. because i'm a strong supporter. i work for him. i believe in this cause, and i think that, again, bring up the issue that often times we run into campaigns where 160 days out, steve, that's another number i heard. the other number i heard was 15. 160 is a good number too. we have to pay attention when we start to go to class warfare and some of the other tactics that campaigns use in a typical presidential election year. so i think we need to calm down,

take a deep breath, step back and let's see how things play out. we haven't even gotten to the conventions. i do want to bring up the fact that the trump campaign has caught up to the clinton campaign in rather dramatic fashion in very short order. and i did not anticipate this. i thought we might be able to catch up at the end of our convention. we would pull up even. this has been a surprising development for me, that we've been able to catch up to the clinton campaign, as quickly as we have, and long before our conventions even come up. so i think that's really an interesting, and there's a story there, and i don't hear much reporting on it, and i think that's really an important point. >> sure, and certainly we've covered that extensively and i say, the race right now, if you look at the numbers, i think it probably looks about like the romn romney/obama race did eight years ago.

we've heard the comparison that the clinton campaign sees this trump university issue the same way the obama campaign saw bain capital. it was an opportunity to take a candidate, a wealthy opponent and to take working-class voters and say, this guy made money on your backs. you watched what happened four years ago, was that a risk for donald trump? >> i think it's probably a legitimate examination. i'm not sure it's totally accurate. i think that we're really talking two different issues here. and i also think we have two different temperaments, two different appeals, two different personalities. i think if you look at the people that are attracted to donald trump and his candidacy, it is such a broad and diverse group of people. and i think that this really goes to the heart of this campaign. and steve, we talked about this before. i've talked about this often in the last several months. this is not a typical campaign.

you can't put this into a particular template or classic example of a campaign, because we are attracting people to this campaign that have frankly never been participants, never voted. and i think what we're seeing here is, for the first time, we're seeing the preamble of the constitution being played out, and the fact that we're talking about we the people. i think it's a story line that i think will be a story line and will be developed over the next several months as we head into the general election. >> all right, sam clovis, national co-chair of the trump campaign, thanks as always for the time. >> steve, thank you. appreciate it. >> for more now, let's turn to joan wolf and philip bump with "the washington post." what sam was saying there, look, not a typical candidate we're talking about here with donald trump, not typical appeal. when you look at the analogy, the mitt romney/donald trump analogy, i wonder if there was

something to that. romney was easy to caricature as the villainous rich guy who profited off the working-class backs. and donald trump already has more appeal than mitt romney did. >> he does. but for clinton sattacking, hey i hope there's a housing crisis, because i'll get rich. he said, i'm a businessman. this attack is even a deeper wound. they're talking about preying on older people, single moms. it's a real psychological appeal. they're talking about preying on people's weaknesses. they up-sell them, they don't get what they want. they say trump is going to hand-pick the teachers, but he doesn't. we have jewelry salesmen teaching real estate with no real estate experience. so it gets to the heart of whether he's made his money as a scam artist. i was kind of shocked, i thought that was a remarkably tepid

defense of co-chair. donald trump doesn't say, this is under litigation. he said they're losers. i was surprised that mr. clovis sat back and said, we'll see. >> it's not going to be resolved legally during this campaign. is this an issue, somebody out there yeah, i'm probably for donald trump right now, does somebody turn on him because of this? >> i'm sure there will be someone who does. the past eight months are littered with guesses about how things would affect donald trump. but the distinction is that romney seemed pluto kratic in a way that trump doesn't. i think people appreciate the slyness that trump has. i think there's an edge to him that people think is good. in the same way that everyone assumes they'll be rich someday, so they don't necessarily want to lash out at rich people, people see the people who may

have been teaj advantage of, if that's the ultimate determination as being suckers and they'd be smarter than them. i think there's psychology that comes to play which comes to donald trump's benefit and has come to his benefit for the past few months. >> some of the smartest people in politics over the last six months or a year have said, this is the way to go after donald trump. i haven't seen one that's worked now, in terms of knocking hip o -- him out of this race. do you have a sense of what would work on him? >> this goes to the point that the clovis official was making about the polling. in 2008, there were two times john mccain caught up with barack obama after he consolidated the republican vote and right after the convention. while it may have surprised mr. clovis that donald trump caught up in the polls, i think it was less surprising to other folks. the broad dynamic of this race is that hillary clinton is still trying to fend off bernie sanders and will do so successfully eventually. that's why trump has caught up.

the demographics, the electoral college map, the growth in new voter registration all benefit hillary clinton in the long run. >> what about hillary clinton as a candidate in this kind of a fight with donald trump? he's going to be calling her crooked hillary every day from now until the election, berating her with stuff from their personal lives, personal history. she's going to be trying to attack him on issues like this. is she naturally suited for a fight like this? is she a politician who gravitates towards this kind of thing? >> i don't think she gravitates toward it, but i think he's well suited to it. she'll stick to policy and issues. she's not exactly teflon, but stuff does bounce off her. she keeps standing, she keeps running, she keeps talking. and as philip says, it's about demography too. each of us has been wrong at some point about what was going to doom him. but we were dealing with a republican base that was very angry and wanted somebody just

like this. the american people i don't think are that angry or want somebody just like this. so i think her case is to stay calm. she's giving a foreign policy speech tomorrow. she's going to paint him as a big risk and just keep making those cases and don't get sucked into the insults and the stupid nicknames. >> we put the negative numbers up earlier for the two candidates. most recent polling, 57 negative for hillary clinton, 59 for donald trump. is this a race where whoever has the highest negative score in the end loses? >> possibly. >> we'll see. i think the comments you made with the third-party is very smart, people may be looking for an alternative. but both parties have come home to their candidates. there will be people who are afraid of both candidates and that may be less of a factor than we might expect. >> thank you both for the time. still to come, just released the 911 calls from the cincinnati zoo where a child

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>> a new development to tell you about in the cincinnati zoo story, the country's been talking about this week being the 911 call whthat was placed the mother of the child who fell into the gorilla enclosure. it's been released. take a listen. >> cincinnati 911. what is the address? >> my son fell in the zoo

exhibit at the gorilla. the cincinnati zoo, my son fell in the gorilla. there's a male gorilla standing over him. i need somebody to contact the zoo. >> we already have help started there. okay? >> be calm, be calm! be calm! he's grabbing my son. i can't watch this. i can't. >> the name of the child was edited out there, trying to protect that family's identity. joe fryer is at the cincinnati zoo. joe, what do we know? >> reporter: we know hearing those dramatic moments from the mother, obviously having a big impact on people. before the 911 calls were released today, the family actually did put out another statement today updating us on the child's condition. they say that our child has had a check-up by his doctor and is still doing well. the family goes on to say some have offered money to the family, which we do not want and will not accept. so if anyone wishes to make a gift, we recommend a donation to

the cincinnati zoo in the gorilla's name, who was shot and killed by zoo officials. of course this all dates back to saturday. somehow this 3-year-old boy was able to get over a three-foot barrier, through bushes and then falling down 15 feet into the moat below, where tense moments were captured on video. the woman who recorded the video, kim o'connor, told us a bit more about those moments. take a listen. >> just like he's a little rag doll. boom, boom. at one point i honestly thought he was going to throw that kid. we're talking seconds. seconds. 60 seconds, 30 seconds. there was nothing to prevent it, really. it was a freak accident. >> the cincinnati police department does confirm that it is looking into what led up to this incident, which involves taking a look at the family and the parents. it's too early to say if any charges will be pressed in this

situation. the police department also says that it will not be investigating any safety procedures or operations here at the zoo. steve? >> all right, joe fryer at the cincinnati zoo, thank you for that. now courtney reagan with the cnbc market wrap. >> stocks closing low, with slight gains on the first trading day of june thanks to a lift from oil prices. the dow adding 2.5 points, the s&p 500 gaining about the same, a hair under the key 2,100 level, the nasdaq closing up four points. that's it from cnbc, we're first in business worldwide. you can worry about them. you can even choose a car for them. (mom) honey, are you ok? (child) i'm ok.

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well, donald trump recently said that world leaders being rattled might be a good thing. my colleague chris hayes just wrapped up an exclusive interview with secretary of state john kerry. and he asked about those rattled -- or potentially rattled world leaders and here's what kerry had to say. >> the president used the word rattled when he talked about world leaders with respect to donald trump. trump responded by saying good, it's good they're rattled. >> well, we're not doing a trump hotel business deal. these are dealings between nations based on precedent, based on understandings, based on trust from one administration to another. this is an ongoing relationship. when you're dealing with nuclear weapons and when you're dealing with war, and you're dealing with the life and death choices that the president of the united states have to make every day, seeking to rattle people is not objective number one most of the time. >> and you can watch that full interview with secretary of

state john kerry. it's going to be on "all in with chris hayes" tonight at 8:00 eastern right here on msnbc. social media has been playing a key role, donald trump sparring with his rivals on twitter. trump, hillary clinton, bernie sanders all using social media to spread their message quickly and on their own terms. behind all the retweets and likes is a dirty secret. an estimated 1/3 of the followers of all these presidential candidates are fake. they're not real. they're paid supporters or computer bots. so what does this mean for the candidates who tout their number of followers? cal perry has the details. we talk about this one's got a million, this one has five million. a lot of them are phony. >> we know donald trump has eight million followers. these are paid supporters or bots. let's go to the next screen. we have four different tweets.

you'll notice the same tweets. live, state department on chinese economic talks, right? nobody would do this the same verbatim language. this is usually a sign that these are fake tweets. >> these look like a bunch of different real people, tweeting the same message? >> yes. trump details 5.6, it's the same language. let's go to the next one and i will isolate for you, sort of a bit of track down. we looked up what this is. this is the caicos islands in the indian ocean, a sign that something is awry. let's go to the next one. we found this phone number here. follow me through this, steve. one more slide, guys. when we called this number, which is what we got, privacy guardian. this is a company designed to allow you to create fake twitter followers. so if you want to create 10,000 followers for your steve kornacki account, this is where you go. >> what does that cost me? >> i have no idea. >> so the campaigns are out there doing this, though? >> we don't know if the

campaigns are doing this, but it's possible that they could do it if they want. we've reached out to the campaigns for comment. this is coming from twitter audit.com. so 70% of donald trump's followers are real people. so roughly 30% are fake, are bots. and again, this is probably not his doing. this is probably computer-generated followers. hillary clinton, 79%, real followers, 21% are fake. bernie sanders has the best twitter audit.com score, only 11% fake. but he's got about 2.5 million followers. he's got 8 million. so that gives you an idea of the ratio. >> soon as this segment's over, i'm doing my own audit. i don't want any fake followers. cal, thanks for the details on that. that's going to do it for this hour. i'm steve kornacki. don't go anywhere. chuck todd is coming up right up. brand-new poll numbers, clinton versus sanders, who's ahead,

who's behind, what's the margin, straight ahead on "mtp daily," and it starts right now. if it's wednesday, it's donald trump giving it the old college try, playing unprecedented offense against a federal judge. and defying defense against a new assault from hillary clinton. this is "mtp daily," and it starts right now. ♪ ♪ good evening, i'm chuck todd here in new york. welcome to "mtp daily." less than a week to go before the golden state primary. could bernie sanders california dreamin pay off? we have brand-new poll numbers right now. 5:00 p.m. eastern. the new poll has a tight race in california. hillary clinton in a margin of error lead, 49-47. this is among likely democratic primary voters, it includes what