i'm a superdelegate and i don't believe in superdelegates. i don't think that superdelegates aren't to sway the election. >> sound familiar?

well, good morning and welcome to "a.m. joy." that was senator elizabeth warren yesterday sounding a lot like someone else we know. >> the whole concept of superdelegates is problematic. >> there's no question that senator warren singing bernie sanders' tune would be music to supporters ears but could it be enough to bring harmony to the democratic convention in july. maybe because high-ranking sources are telling us elizabeth warren would be a great vp choice for hillary clinton. hillary clinton herself fueled speculation as to whether a retweet is in fact an endorsement when this tweet from elizabeth warren appeared on her timeline. there it is. and this is what democrats united to meet real donald trump looks like. get ready, donald, we're coming. but who exactly do clinton and warren mean by we? joining me now, reverend al

sharpton, maria teresa kumar and jonathan capehart. let's talk about a clinton-warren ticket. it's something that seemed relatively unlikely but could this be the way that democrats actually unite? >> it could be. we've never seen it before, but we've never seen an election like this before. >> true. >> and i think that when you have the ideological pose that are clear in this election, it would be in many ways bringing these two polls together to unite and defeat donald trump. i think others can do it but none has the visibility and the name recognition of elizabeth warren. the other thing the senate is saying, are they floating this out there to kind of bring down bernie sanders momentum a remember there is another progressive leader, elizabeth warren, who did not endorse

bernie sanders, by the way. so they may be doing it where we're going to raise her profile. she's not with him, and then do another candidate later on who elizabeth warren may embrace. but i think it was always interesting to me that elizabeth warren never did endorse bernie sanders. >> she caught a lot of flak from bernie sanders supporters. look at her on the issues and the things that she believes that bernie sanders also believes. on wall street accountability she's very similar to him, on simplifying regulation action clean renewable energy, on public funding for elections, so they actually have a lot in common. could elizabeth warren replace the sanders brand on a clinton ticket in a way that would excite sanders supporters, younger people, the folks that have been voting for bernie over hillary? >> if you look at some of sanders positions and the way he speaks to it, it's reminiscent of elizabeth warren when she was talking to the stephen colbert's of the world on "the daily show." very similar language. but i think what she really does

is neutralizes the space of folks that befeel disaffected b hillary clinton. she goes toe to toe with folks against wall street, against big business, recognizes the mortgage crisis as link ed and she makes it comfortable for folks to come into that. i think that the challenge is going to be that she is a senator from massachusetts. are they going to be able to guarantee a democratic senator, because it's so toe to toe right now. >> when we spoke with senator harry reid, that was one of his big concerns about bigging a sherrod brown or elizabeth warren or any democrat. he would fight like hell for democrats not to do that. we are hearing some signals that there is an openness, even from that echelon of the democratic party, to it being elizabeth warren in particular and that must mean they're confident that they could win that seat in a special election. >> sure. but look, on paper, i completely agree. a clinton-warren ticket would be

incredible. elizabeth warren on a ticket with hillary clinton i think would be attractive to bernie sanders supporters, would be something that would make them say, okay, i will vote for her. short term politically, it's brilliant. long term i think it is a huge problem. a clinton-warren white house i think in the long term will be like washington's version of "empire." >> why do you think that? >> lots of competing factions. imagine you've got elizabeth warren, who has a defined ideas who as a senator can fight like hell to push her ideas. but once she becomes vice president, she is subordinate to the president of the united states. >> there's another part to this, though. i think jonathan may be right but i don't know if it would be as bad as "empire." i don't know who would be cookie in that one. the question you've also got to deal with is the downside.

i agree that it would certainly solidify a lot of bernie sanders supporters, but it would also solidify a lot of people on the right that have been very tepid about donald trump saying, oh, no, we're not going all the way over there. and it might be a very serious help, asset to donald trump to unite the republicans on the right. you have to remember, after both conventions they have to play for the middle and there's a lot of the middle that are not with sanders and a lot of the middle that is saying maybe i can go with hillary, she's not as bad, trump is too extreme that, would go all the way the other way if they felt that that kind the fervor was going to take the white house. i happen to be on that side of the fervor, but the reality is and the general election where the sanders voters are not as important in terms of the percentage. it's certainly very important to the base of the democratic party, those of us who believe

what they believe. but in a general election that's a whole different matter. >> i think that the only person that's been able to demonstrate that she's formidable in taking down donald trump has been elizabeth warren. if you watch the tweet storms, she has no fear. >> she's a first class troll. >> and hillary clinton cannot stoop to his level but elizabeth warren actually has the gloves on and it softens the fight between them. >> let's take a listen to elizabeth warren attacking donald trump. in the part of the vice presidential picks role is attacking the other candidate in a way that the candidate can't. this is elizabeth warren going after donald trump. take a listen. >> what kind of man roots for people to get thrown out of their jobs, to root for people to lose their pensions? what kind of a man does that? i'll tell you exactly what kind of a man does that. it is a man who cares about no one but himself. a small -- a small, insecure

money grubber who doesn't care who gets hurt so long as he makes a profit off it. what kind of a man does that? a man who will never be president of the united states. >> and, rev, that's incredibly effective obviously when she does that. but the question is to the point that i think you guys are making, are democrats in danger of presuming that all the energy is on the left and then forgetting that there could be incredible energy from the center that they're missing out on by going with elizabeth warren. >> let's not forget that donald trump got more votes than any republican ever has gotten in running for this nomination. so let's not underestimate in our looking at him that he will not galvanize the vote. and anything clinton does, since

she will be the nominee, she's got to look at am i playing against the interest of winning. i think that no one is more effective than elizabeth warren and what she just did. but she can do that whether she's on the ticket or not. elizabeth warren is a national figure with a national power, whether she's on the ticket or not. >> yeah. at the same time, one of the issues democrats have actually had, even in winning five of the last six popular votes, they do have this deficit with women. if you look at mitt romney, mitt romney had an r plus 14 advantage with white women. john kerry managed to only get 44 to 55 to george w. bush. john mccain, 53% of white women versus 46%. if only to reverse that gender gap among white women in favor of the democrats, isn't that a way of mitigating against what you were talking about. maybe you lose some folks in the middle but those would be mainly white men who aren't going to

vote for the democrat anyway. >> and men actually like women. if you look at how misogynistic the donald trump platform is, it's so anti-women that you actually hear republican women for the first time bristle and say this is not my value. but to that point, we have been on the ground in so many states and we hear so many voters saying that they would either vote for bernie sanders or donald trump. so i think that the connection there is that they are looking for a populist leader. in many ways, elizabeth warren absolutely absorbs that. >> in a way that might subsume the bernie barrier. stay right there. we'll take a moment to remember the extraordinary life and legacy of muhammad ali, next. allergies with nasal congestion?

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one of the great american heroes in modern american

history was muhammad ali, a very proud muslim. and don't tell us how much you love muhammad ali and yet you're going to be prejudiced against muslim in this country. >> on a day that we are mourning muhammad ali, it's worth remembering that we live in a country where people can break down barriers, where they can worship their own god, where they can choose their own name, and where they can lead and follow their dreams as far as their hard work and talent will take them. >> both bernie sanders and hillary clinton invoked the late great muhammad ali during their critiques of donald trump this week, proof that the boxing legend had an impact far beyond the ring. public funeral services will be held on friday in his hometown of louisville, kentucky, and will include eulogies by former president bill clinton, bryant gumbel and comedian billy crystal. back with me is reverend al sharpton. obviously ali's legacy is looming large over this weekend,

but what do you make of the direct association that democrats are making with him and really the way that people have crowded donald trump out of being able to try to join in that commemoration? >> well, i think that it would be the height of being inappropriate that you would have a candidate that openly talks about banning muslims and then try to have him attach himself to probably the most famous muslim in america, american muslim. who stood up and was convicted and was on his way to jail had it not been for the supreme court for practicing his islamic faith. so how do you connect donald trump to that? i think that donald trump should be questioned by the media on how do you feel, because he's tried to say him and ali were friends. how do you feel about banning muslims when ali himself in december said that he disagreed with trump. so i think that trump was in a

very awkward position, to put it mildly. >> he had to say, something but of course he was opening himself up. muhammad ali was very vocal, even though he lost his ability to verbalize, he was very vocal not only talking about iran needing to release the iranian american journalist who was not long ago freed but talking about donald trump's attacks on muslims. is it important that we keep muhammad ali's faith in the forefront as we mourn him just as a reminder to those who are going along with donald trump. >> i think that you keep his faith in the forefront not only for political reasons but because he kept his faith in the forefront. this man redefined what celebrity was in america. i grew up looking up to him. later in life got to know him and he supported a lot of my work in civil rights. and he never let you forget that he risked and really put up everything because of his faith.

i mean here's a man who was heavyweight champion of the world, endorsements and everything, walked away from all of that because he said a muslim, i'm not going to serve in this war. how do you not put that up and keep that up front because that's how he lived. now, the politics of it notwithstanding, i think out of respect for his legacy and his wishes, you must keep his faith up front. >> last night msnbc replayed "when we were kings" a great documentary about the rumble in the jungle. we don't have global figures like ali anymore, do we? what is that about? >> i think part of it is that people have to deal with things that have universal impact, and ali did. ali was dealing with a war, international war. ali was dealing with questions of the poverty, questions of race. it's a big difference when you have celebrities/people, icons like ali. spike lee and i was talking

about this yesterday, who we both are like the generation behind him, that we grew up looking up to, and now our kids are growing up in a generation where you flash $100 bills as a celebrity. it's much difference in quality and substance. and i think that how do you get global when your claim to fame is that you flash a bundle of money. that currency doesn't even make sense globally because it's different currency all over the world. i think that you've got to be -- mrs. coretta scott king used to say if you want to be big, you have to be bigger as a person. i think the reason we don't have a lot of global celebrities is because we don't have a lot of global celebrities. >> how much do you expect the celebrity element to matter? barack obama had all these

validators coming out but there are not a lot of people thinking globally the way that ali did. do we have folks that can make that kind of an impact because of donald trump putting race in the forefront, putting ethnicity in the forefront. >> you raise a very interesting question. the two problems that you have is, one, race is out front and center, so whenever selects gce get involved, and they should, but they're going to have to take on now. and this is different than '08 because you're going to take on somebody who's going to come back after you, trump. a lot of them that talk their bad talk in their raps or whatever have never really been in a real fight in a political sense. they have got to decide that and their management team doesn't want them to do it. the other thing is that donald trump in many ways going back to what we talked about with ali represents what a lot of them have also used as their calling

card, opulence, money, big house, nice cars, so they would almost be challenging the same kind of values that they would be associated with. so it's a very interesting twist because how do you say that trump is wrong, this gold-plated penthouse guy that's running around saying all these things but all over your instagram you've been playing the same role. so it gives a lot of them an interesting kind of dilemma. i've been talking to them trying to work through a lot of it, and i can tell you we haven't come up with a lot of answers because a lot of them are going to have to check themselves. and i think a lot of them will. >> you know why i like having my favorite rev on on sunday mornings? because i get church. >> i promised to bring the tambourine. i didn't bring it this time but it's coming. >> come back next week with the tambourine. reverend al sharpton, always great to have you. up next, trump's 15-state

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what i'm going to do is i want to focus on 15 or so states. because we have to win. and i want my energy to be put into states where it could go either way. >> that's donald trump talking about his 15 or so state strategy to try to win the white house. let's talk about whether or not that strategy makes any sense, shall we? it's predicated on the fact that republicans typically do well in states like these down in the middle of the country that have not a lot of population, so not a lot of electoral college votes. while democrats tend to do well in the coasts, the states that have lots and lots and lots of electoral college votes. so republicans typically go into an election with 160 or so electoral college votes in the bag, democrats have north of 200. you've got to get to 270. so what donald trump would have to do in his 15-state strategy,

he's got to flip some states that typically go democratic, which means he's got to concentrate right in here in the rust belt but also flip some big delegate states. this is the ole big delegate state he's going to have in the bag. let's look at some of the states he might try for. let's start with wisconsin, home of sad paul ryan, the house speaker who recently endorsed donald trump. ten electoral college votes, but not a history of voting republican. the last time wisconsin went for the gop, 1984. ronald wilson reagan. however, it's a rust belt state, it's gone republican big-time in the last two midterm elections. can they flip it? you've got a matchup of the 2010 united states showdown between russ feingold and ron johnson. but look at how this matchup is shaping up right now. at the moment russ feingold is dominating senator ron johnson and usually as these senate

races go, so goes the state. it doesn't look too good for donald trump. let's move on to new york. donald trump has made rumblings that he thinks he could flip his state. this also has not gone republican since 1984. this is a very diverse state, lots of african-americans, lots of latinos, the kind of population that doesn't typically go republican. right now hillary clinton is crushing donald trump in the polls by more than ten points in his home state. so this is not looking too likely for donald trump. let's go over to california. now, if donald trump wanted to flip a state, this would be the one ha he'd want. this used to be a republican strong hold. it's a state that gave us nixon and reagan. however, it's also a state that is now not majority white. 39% of this population is hispanic, 11% of this population is asian american. 6% of this population african-american. so not a state that has enough white voters to really be plausible for donald trump.

hillary clinton dominating him by well more than 10 points, even more than 12, 13 points in the polls of the really not looking likely for donald trump again. now we go to ohio. ohio is the ultimate swing state. this is a state that since 1944, the number of times it's been wrong, one. this is a state that went for george w. bush in 2004 and probably was the state that won him the nomination. however, at the moment hillary clinton is edging donald trump by about four points in the polls in ohio. if that holds and she's able to hold on and bring this state into her column, this is a state that hillary clinton could win and could carry her over the top but it's probably the most plausible of donald trump's scenarios. len we go to the state that -- wait a minute, it reminds me of something. a sound. there we go, it's a whale. a white whale. pennsylvania is the white whale of the gop. every single election cycle we hear republicans and republican strategists and even some beltway journalists say this is the state that republicans are going to flip. why do they think they can get

it? the state -- let's go back to the state again. the state is older. it's one of the oldest states in the union. the state is pretty white and it's got what we used to call over here, western pennsylvania, this is what james carville has called alabama without the black people. it's a state that's got a huge rust belt population. it's a former coal state and it's a state that has been in decline. but the problem is no matter how well republicans do in the western part of pennsylvania, this is where the votes are. the votes are in philadelphia and they're in the philadelphia suburbs. democrats just have to perform here well to win. let's just give you some context for that. in 2012, of the 67 counties in pennsylvania, barack obama lost, lost 55 of them and still won the state, so this state probably not going to be in the republican column as much as they would like it to be. now we go to florida. it's the ultimate swing state. it's truly a purple state as we've colored it here. if donald trump is going to pull a state, he needs a state like

this with 29 electoral votes. who is winning the state in the polls? large hispanic population, large puerto rican population and barack obama won here in 2012. could he flip a state? if it's going to be one, this would be the one he'd want. when we come back, we'll talk to my panel about whether this little strategy can actually be done. we'll do that after the break. with flonase allergy relief, they wont. when we breathe in allergens, our bodies react by over producing six key inflammatory substances that cause our symptoms. most allergy pills only control one substance. flonase controls six. and six is greater than one. flonase outperforms the #1 non-drowsy allergy pill. so you can seize those moments, wherever you find them. flonase. six is greater than one changes everything.

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alfonso aguilar and benjamin wallace wells. i'm tempted to go to the monitor but i can't resist the presence of michael steele. he is a force of nature. donald trump says he's different. >> we know that. >> obviously california is a state that gave us nixon, gave us reagan. can donald trump win california? >> i think donald trump can make it competitive. i don't know if he can win it outright but he can make it competitive. he can make a number of states competitive because of some of the underlying arguments that he's made. let's take the crazy off the table right now with the judge and all of that. >> what does that leave behind? >> well, it leaves behind the fact that he's in national polls polling very close to hillary clinton. >> but in california, in california he's polling 56 for hillary clinton to 30 for trump, 39% latino. >> i understand, and it is june. we haven't had conventions and haven't had a head-to-head with hillary and donald trump. i think you miss an opportunity

to respond to his semi foreign policy speech this week. it was an effective speech. but he did not respond to it and that was a missed opportunity. he can't afford many more of those if he wants to be competitive in rust belt states and states like california. >> alfonso aguilar, this is the week where donald trump doubled down on going after a federal judge and calling him mexican, even though this is a man who is an american, he is from indiana, but he doubled down on that in his interview with jake tapper w those kind of optics, how would donald trump turn things around in a state like california or in a state like florida? >> very difficult, especially in california. you have to think in california the latino electorate is composed of multi h-generationa latinos who are more liberal, so it's very difficult with comments like that about the judge to be able to win them over. in florida it's different.

the background of hispanics is very diverse in florida, puerto rican, cuban, venezuelan, colombian, so i think he's got a shot in florida. i think trying to win over latinos in places like new york and california is just very difficult for him. with this type of comments, it just really doesn't help connect with those voters. >> jonathan capehart. >> he isn't winning california. you put the point, was it 39%? >> yes, 39% hispanic, 11% asian american, 6% african-american, only 39% white. >> here's the problem. no matter who the republican nominee would be in 2016, latino decisions did a survey last year that showed at a minimum, depending on the conditions, the republican nominee would need to win 42% of the latino vote nationwide in order to be elected president of the united states. mitt romney got 27%.

>> but that assumes a static vote among white voters. mitt romney lost 3 million white voters in that election as well, so it's not like -- it's not -- >> and white voters -- >> i think some white folks go for democrats too. >> and no democrat has won the white vote since 1964 and the white vote is a shrinking part of the electorate. >> let's get benjamin wallace wells in here. benjamin, part of this idea about the white vote is predicated on donald trump being able to go into places like ohio, places like indiana, wisconsin and pennsylvania and make a case to nonvoting white voters, voters who have been loosely attached to the electorate, to come into the process. do you see evidence that there are enough of these missing white voters that can come into the process and get donald trump to push it to a 72% white electorate, for instance? >> amazing. well, there's a little bit of evidence at least.

we see the real turnout boost that trump got during the primaries. but i think when you dig down a little bit into the poll numbers that focus specifically on the midwest, it doesn't look so good for him. bloomberg did an interesting poll that looked only at voters in the midwest whose family income is between 30 and $70,000 a year. so exactly what we're talking about when we talk about the trump voter. and they found that trump not only lost hillary clinton by seven points among that group but he also trailed mitt romney. the comments that those voters gave to pollsters emphasized feelings like fear about this election, that suggests that they're not as comfortable with donald trump as we think. so, you know, i don't know, i think there is some evidence from the early primary turnout that says maybe those white voters -- and by the way, the missing white voters are people who voted in 2008 so they're not totally out of the electorate.

maybe there's some evidence those people are coming back to the polls but i think a little further into the election there may not be quite as many as we sometimes like to think. >> michael, i think fox is the one that did this analysis of the trump voters. he did get an historic turnout in the primary, but unfortunately for him they were mostly voters converted from general election voters to primary voters, they weren't new voters. so where are these missing white voters? >> well, that's the question that the campaign and the party are going to be digging down, because of the of the point that jonathan made about hispanic and african-american and other minority voters out there. look, i'm just saying that the landscape today is not the one we're going to see in september and it's not the one we're going to see two weeks out from the election. no one thought we would be in this space now, did we. donald trump was at 1% of the polls. 76, 86 of the republicans said

ooit never vote for him and now 82% are behind the man. so he has the capacity to change the dynamic of this race, that's my central argument. states like california, pennsylvania, wisconsin, become in play for republicans in a way that they haven't been in the past because of issues on trade, for example, and the problem that a lot of white voters have with hillary clinton, for example. he can make that maybe not a call that gets a lot of white folks to turn out but it can have an impact on the election. >> mitt romney won 59% of the white vote in 2012, the highest percentage in a very -- of any republican challenging an incumbent president in the history of exit polling, according to a republican pollster for marco rubio. he still lost to president obama, who lost the white vote by 5 million votes. and this year and last year said that the next republican nominee has to win 65% of the white vote

and that's not going to pps got word. >> ain't never going to happen. >> jonathan capehart and michael steele will be back later in the show. thank you to alfonso al laur and beng gin wallace-wells. not every republican has accepted the inevitability of donald trump. that's true. stay with us. developed our most revolutionary feature yet. a car that can see trouble and stop itself to avoid it. when the insurance institute for highway safety tested front crash prevention nobody beat subaru models with eyesight. not toyota. not ford or any other brand. subaru eyesight. an extra set of eyes, every time you drive.

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paul ryan may have joined trump team this week, but the gop still has some heavy hitting holdouts, like former new jersey governor christine todd whitman. she has said she will not back the republican presumptive nominee, in fact she'd rather

vote for clinton. >> joining me now is former new jersey governor christine todd whitman. governor whitman, thanks for being here. >> it's a pleasure. >> you have made a splash this week by essentially saying that if it's down to hillary clinton or donald trump, you, though a republican in good standing in the party, will not vote for donald trump. does that mean that you would vote for hillary clinton? >> first of all, i'm not so sure i'm in good standing with the current republican party, but i will not vote for donald trump. i'll still waiting with my options. i can write in. i will vote because i think the worst thing you can do is not send a mess annuage one way or other. maybe send a message that you don't like the choices that you are given so maybe they'll react to what's going on. >> you said you're maybe not in good standing with the republican party as it is. what do you think has changed about the republican party since you were governor? >> well, a wrote a book back in 2005 called "it's my party too."

i'm not sure i would use the same party today. the party has been moving to a litmus test group of people with positions on every issue that now makes everything partisan. there are no policy. we moved away from trying to solve the issues and it's more about what gets me another vote in caucus and what gets me another percentage on my re-elect. we have hard and fast rules about what defines a good republican versus a bad republican or nonrepublican and unfortunately i see the democrats starting to do the same thing. that's really dangerous for your country and for our choices as a democracy. >> and what about donald trump troubles you to the point where you would not vote for him? >> a lot. i've got six grandsons and a granddaughter on the way, finally. and i want them to grow up in a world that is stable and is secure and has a strong and prosperous united states. and i don't see donald trump bringing us that. someone who says we want to keep everybody unsure of where we are in the international world,

that's not how you deal with your allies in as unstable a world as we have today. for somebody who thinks putin has done a good job and kim jong-un is fine even though he's eliminated a lot of people to get where he is and he doesn't mind them having nuclear weapons, that makes for a very destabilized country and world and it i think brings real problems here on our shores. and then the fact that he is a demagogue. that he demeans women, certainly hispanics, he's demeaned veterans, he has demeaned the handicapped. we don't want, i don't believe, and i'm not comfortable with a bully whose path to power is about diminishing people, about demeaning them, about trying to scare people. that's just not what we wanting and it doesn't bode well, i don't think, for bringing the country to where we want to be. >> and you're also, in addition

to being a former kbovr,governo former epa administrator, donald trump believes climate change is a myth. i presume you believe climate change is real. what would it mean for the country and for the world to be led by a president that does not believe climate change is real? >> frankly, i think it could be a disaster for the world long term. you know, in 2013, the year for which we have the most recent statistics, there were over 91,000 people in this country who died from bad air-related problems, emphysema, heart attacks, things like that. almost three times as many people who were killed on our roads in that year. this is a real problem. we want clean air. whether you believe in climate change or not, you want clean air. that's what the epa is about. that's what actually when you start to clean up and address climate change, you're cleaning up the air. that gives us a better quality of life. i don't want to see us turn that back. 97% of scientists, the argument is over as to whether the climate is changing. it always has, i give you that, there's no question about it.

but to think that man doesn't have some impact on that is being extraordinarily naive and there really is no more question within the scientific community about whether or not man has an impact. the question now and the argument is can we address that in a way that keeps our economy growing and history proves we can. we've done it over and over and over again. >> so given all that you've just said, all of the problems that you ve wdonald trump, what do you make of the fcurrent gov of new jersey, chris christie, has not only thrown his support behind donald trump, even after that contentious primary, but essentially has become one of his chief surrogates? >> i was disappointed by the governor's decision obviously. i thought much of what he said about donald trump during the primary, when he was still a candidate, was right on. when he questioned his ability to serve as the president and to make that pivot so quickly was disappointing to me. i understand it, i guess, because you want to be part of whom you perceive to be the

winning candidate and certainly he has created a place for himself he's going to have a lot of influence. should trump win and should chris christie want a position in the administration, ike he clearly has that ability, but that's not where i am and i don't think it's where the majority of new jersey ans are. >> and the entire leadership of the washington-based republican party have thrown their support behind trump. at ryan's case at the same time that donald trump is going after a federal judge, questioning his ability to make impartial decisions based on his ethnic y ethnicity, that you've seen violent protests against donald trump in california. all that taking place as paul ryan is supporting him. what do you make of the republican leadership? why do you think they're all deciding to get behind donald trump? >> somebody like paul ryan really doesn't have a choice. he's the leader of the republican party in the house. he's got a very contentious caucus to begin with. he really cares about policy. if he wants to stay in that position and try to bring people

together at all, he is going to have to support the republican chosen flag bearer, whether he wants to or not. now, he could do the same thing that mitch mcdonnell did earlier, which is to endorse donald trump but say to his members, if you want to run away from him, go ahead, i'm not going to penalize you for that. i think what they're doing is responding to their role as loaders of what they perceive it to be. my point is that, you know, you can stand up and if you are clear with the public as to why you take the position you do, i think we give too much credence to some of the extremes. and the democrats are starting to get that way on the left, there's no question about it. they're moving too far that way as far as i'm concerned. then if you would just stand up and say this is what i really believe, here's who i am, you may not win by quite as much but you can still win and you should put the country ahead of partisan politics. >> i am going to put you on the spot in that same vein, governor

whitman, because republicans enjoy in each of the last several elections an advantage, particularly with white women, particularly white married women. a 14-point advantage for mitt romney, an 8-point advantage for john mccain. you could in theory be a voice against donald trump who could have some resonance with hose very voters, with women in particular. do you plan to campaign against donald trump and to try to make the case to republican women that they should not vote for him? >> as long as i have the opportunity to speak to people like you, i think i'm doing that. you know, people have to vote their conscience. at the end of the day it's going to be their decision, do i really in good conscience support this person. i don't see how women frankly get there because he clearly has shown that he is a misogynist. of course he'll say he loves women but i think it's a literal sense and not the overall policy sense. you know, it's -- i'm not going to tell people how they should vote. what i do plan to do is to continue to speak out on where i

am and people can dismiss that or not. that's going to be up to them. but i hope to lay out a cogent case about issues that they should be concerned and how they ought to think about it. women are concerned about every issue. we're concerned about safety for our children, we're concerned about the economic future of the country for ourselves and we're concerned about international relations. we don't want to go to war. you know, there are a lot of things, the issues i've never believed in so-called women's issues as being exclusively women's issues. i've never found any issue that is exclusively a woman's issue so women care about everything. i just urge people to take a good, hard look. you see so many people who say i want a businessperson with good business experience. donald trump has taken four businesses to a bankruptcy, got his money out but a lot of people lost their jobs and lost everything. he's had a number of failed businesses, whether it's his airline or his liquor franchise that he had. i mean he's had a lot of

failures and he's being sued at trump university, which is what this judge is caught in the cross-hairs of. >> sure. >> so the business side doesn't impress me. when he says he's going to bring jobs back to the united states and then, first of all, he denigrates immigrants. he's been sued and had to pay a fine for hiring illegal immigrants. that's not someone who's bringing american jobs to america, to americans. so if you start peeling away that onion, there's just not a lot of there there. >> governor christine todd whitman, we thank you very much for peeling back some of that. thank you for joining us. >> my pleasure. coming up next, the fraud allegations against trump university, and donald's defense. plus, it's puerto rico's big day at the polls. "a.m. joy" continues at the top of the hour. olay luminous illuminates skin with pearl optics science. your concert style might show your age, your skin never will.

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>> trump and his employees took advantage of vulnerable americans, encouraging them to max out their credit cards, empty their retirement savings, destroy their financial futures, all while making promises they knew were false from the beginning. >> i'll win the trump university case. i could settle that case. i could have settled it. i just choose not to. in fact when i ran they said why didn't you settle that case? i n't want to settle the case. pause you know what? because i'm a man of principle. and most of the people that took those courses have letters saying they thought it was great, essentially. >> did trump university really provide an education in the art of the deal? donald trump is very much on the defensive, as newly unsealed court documents reveal the hard sell tactics used by salesman for his now defunct university. students paid up to $35,000 for

courses in private mentoring from supposed experts. here is how trump himself promoted it. >> at trump university, we teach success. that's what it's all about, success. it's going to happen to you. honestly, if you don't learn from them, if you don't learn from me, if you don't learn from the people that we're going to be putting forward, and these are all people that are hand picked by me, then you're just not going to make it in terms of the world of success. >> some students have clamtd they were defrauded. several lawsuits have been filed, including one by new york attorney general. schneiderman was on "morning joe" on thursday where he explained the allegations and trump's alleged role. >> it's not a university. trump's role was really as the pitchman. we've got his videotapes and sworn testimony which undercuts every statement in the videotapes. he said my hand picked experts will teach you my personal

secrets. he and the president of the university have testified under oath he never met the instructors, they weren't hand picked, they weren't experts. some of them came out of fast food and retail and he had nothing to do with the supposed secrets. he had nothing to do with the curriculum. >> accusations are also being made by some former trump university employees. a former sales manager testified i believe that trump university was a fraudulent scheme, and that is preyed upon the elderly and uneducated to separate them from their money. schnackenberg has claimed he was reprimanded for not pushing harder to get a couple to sign up for a class that they determined they could not afford. in a sales playbook staff members are urged to gather personalized information from prospective students to help with the hard sell. one example, are they a single parent ofhree children that may need money for food? trump points to surveys that say that he says 98% of approval. 98% of the people who took the

courses approved at trump university. on wednesday, trump's campaign released a video from some of them. >> i must tell you that the courses that i took were outstanding. >> i went into the florida markets and did about 40 business deals there, real estate deals in south carolina and the returns on those deals were incalculable. >> joining me, jonathan capehart, michael steele and joseph berelli. joseph, you're new to the family so i'm going to go to you first. i'm going to start by putting you right into the hot seat. >> welcome. >> trial by fire. >> one of the plaintiffs in the case, he is one of the people who's filing a lawsuit against trump. i want you to take a listen to what he has had to say. >> absolutely nothing, and i spent pretty close to $36,000, including my son's expenses, so

basically they -- these loose-leaf binders contained powerpoint presentations that are totally worthless. like go around town and look for signs that say "for sale by owner." the first acceseminar or workshr retreat, whatever they decided to call it, i knew right away that i had been scammed because they tried to upsell me to take another program for $9,000, $4,000, $20,000, you name it. >> that was an interview on my friend lawrence o'donnell's show here on msnbc. we've had a lot of different kinds of people run for president. we've never had anybody who was accused of running what really just sounds like a scam on people in the words of one of his own former sales reps to separate people from their money. how do you support a candidate like that? >> we've also never had a candidate who's under criminal investigation by the fbi.

>> that was a pivot. we're talking about trump unersity and these things are not equivalent because the e-mail scandal -- >> one is worse, the criminal investigation. >> the e-mail scandal is, a, irrelevant and, b, not about scamming people out of their money. i need to answer the question i asked you. >> if you think the e-mail is irrelevant but trump university is relevant -- >> i need to bring you back to my topic. >> i'm going to answer your question. >> i need to bring you back to my topic. how do you have a person who separates people from their money -- >> no one course cost $36,000. >> a lot of them did. >> why did this person go back and buy more programs, buy more courses. >> what information do you have -- >> i don't think any one course cost $36,000. >> because these people were believing in the donald trump brand and they were hoping to be able to make a living in real estate investing and they were believing the sales pitch by donald trump. >> no one thinks that donald trump was out there not trying to pitch things that he has branded over the years,

including trump university. i don't think any of trump's supporters actually are out there thinking that he wasn't trying to make money in various ways. this is one of them. that said, these folks signed up for a real estate seminar. not everyone who signs up for a real estate seminar gets to be a millionaire later on down the road. not everyone who signs up for a s.a.t. class goes on to get a 1600 or whatever the new scores are today. not everyone is going to be a success at all the programs they get involved in. this is one -- it seems like people are unhappy with the service they provided. that's their right to be unhappy. if people wanting to bring actions, that's their right. i think -- i just can't get over the fact that you said that the e-mail -- >> you're trying to pivot back again. i need to keep you on topic. >> to say the e-mail scandal is irrelevant and this is relevant, i think a majority of the country -- if you don't believe me, go to the polls. >> we're going to go to somebody who will answer my question. let's talk about the fact, jonathan, that you have had two attorneys general, in addition

to the new york attorney general, who is pursuing a case against trump university for defrauding people. texas and florida also considered doing the same thing. there's a headline in a couple of different newspapers that at least two states attorneys general dropped trump university fraud inquiries and then subsequently received donations from donald trump, and that's the attorney generals in texas and florida. your take on that. >> well, it looks bad. it smells bad. it doesn't -- it doesn't look good at all. here you have -- people bring lawsuits. i mean donald trump brings lawsuits all the time. but people, class action lawsuits, happen when a lot of people feel like that they have been defrauded and they have been harmed. when you showed the clip of trump university saying if you do not succeed, then you're not made for success. you are supposed to take his courses and you are supposed to

succeed. and if peach ople take the cour and then realize that not only am i not going to succeed, but i can't succeed because they're draining money from me and upselling me and i'm hoping that eventually i'll get to the point where i can be as successful as donald trump and it doesn't happen, people who get -- people who are in that situation understandably get angry and understandably file suit against the person. it just so happens that the person who is being -- who is being suited is the presumptive republican nominee for president of the united states. and this is of issue, as is the lawsuits, tax returns, everything. we are getting a view into the character of this person who could be sitting in the oval office and, quite frankly, it's unsettling and it should be unsettling to not just the country but to republicans. >> michael, one of the things that i think is troubling is that donald trump is not even making joe borelli's against of

him, pivoting to hillary or something else. what he's done in attempting to defend himself is go after the ethnicity of the judge. so it just adds to his problem racially profiled the judge. >> this is a story line that has been in the news in new york for season years and -- six years, goes back to 2010 when a lot of the information and litigation and inquiry into trump university was formed. trump himself has said i could settle this but i won't. trump should have settled it, because the reality of politics is everything comes to the table. and in this instance, donald trump has brought it to the table by talking about the case in a manner that put the judge in a position where the judge had to respond to his own integrity and say, all right, fine, release the documents so you can see i'm not trying to be biased or put my fingers on the

scale of justice. so i think what you're going to see now is the trump team back off of that, because this has not been a good week. this is not a good narrative for donald trump. not because it's taking votes away from him and all of that, but because it's clouding up the opportunity for him to move into a different conversation with the american people. >> but you say trump team, but isn't the problem not the trump team, it's donald trump? >> he needs to listen to his team. he needs to listen to his lawyers. you know his lawyers are not happy -- >> he's tweeting about it. >> his lawyers are not happy about this thing turning out the way it has because it puts them in a very difficult position with the judge. they have to go back before this judge and argue this man's case and the judge is going to go really? >> joe, i want to come back to you on the question of the kinds of attacks that hurt in campaigns are ones that go to what should be the person's fundamental sort of selling proposition. and for donald trump, the selling proposition has

essentially been to blue collar white americans. i'm going to get back for you the america you think you've lost. but if the victims in this trump university case are just those very people and if the narrative starts to build that the people he was separating from his money are these blue collar white americans primarily, how does trump recover from that kind of a narrative? >> look, these are folks that kind up for a real estate seminar of their own free will. you see these kinds of advertisements on late night infomercials not just from trump university but from a dozen other organizations that have for-profit schools. you know, that said, any time you're involved in a lawsuit as a presidential candidate it's certainly not going to help. the better strategy for donald trump would be simply say i'm in litigati litigation, i'm not going to talk about it, this is a civil case, and leave it at that. >> but it's also an investigation by the attorney general of new york. >> but not a criminal investigation, unlike hillary's, again. >> but it's still under investigation by the attorney

general of new york. >> and that's the other point too. donald trump could have criticized the case or the merits of the case on very valid case. the attorney general of new york is a hillary clinton supporter, a named leadership member of her team. >> and he didn't get a donation like the attorney generals in texas and florida who closed their inquiries. >> he did a point -- there are fair things that he could have criticized the trial for. >> you don't think the substance of the charges, when that guy who we just played is then running a commercial where he says i lost $35,000 of my life savings to this man. you don't think that that's a narrative problem in and of itself? >> you also heard some people who succeeded? >> they were paid -- >> i would never take a real estate seminar. the premise is buy low, sell high. they took the class, they learned a little bit and some of them made money, some of them didn't. not everybody who signs up for an lsat class gets into law

school. we don't pay lsat classes by the person's performance on the test later on. >> they're also not $35,000. >> if you asked me to pay $35,000 to learn to buy low and sell high, i wouldn't pay it. some would. >> it's kind of a sorry suckers, right? it's an argument these people are suckers. and that doesn't help donald trump either if the defense from people like you are going out to defend him are going to make the argument -- >> i just don't think this is going to have the level of resonance that a lot of folks think it's going to have. i really don't think it's a narrative that's going to continue throughout the course of the summer and be a death nell for his campaign in the fall. i know that may shock a lot of people. >> i'll give jonathan capehart the final word. >> again? he gets the final word again? he got it last time. >> it will not be the death nell

of the donald trump candidacy in the general election. >> a lot of folks are hoping it is. >> hope springs eternal. but what it will do is if he keeps running his mouth the way he's running his mouth about this, then he keeps the story alive. >> i agree with you on that. >> and the trump team can try as they like to shut it down, but unless donald trump stops talking, it's not going to happen. >> final word actually to michael steele very quickly. >> i agree with that. >> all right. thank you for putting up with me, joseph borelli, appreciate it. up next, the democrats. hillary clinton may be looking ahead to the general election but first she has to get past bernie sanders. could this weekend be the key? more when we come back. ♪ staying in rhythm... it's how i try to live... how i stay active. so i need nutrition... that won't weigh me down. for the nutrition you want without the calories you don't... try boost® 100 calories.

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i don't want to speculate about who will end up having more pledged delegates. she is ahead of us right now, no question. but california is coming up, they have 475 pledged delegates here. you don't know what the world is going to be like four weeks from now, five weeks. let's not forget, democratic convention is the end of july. that's a long time from today. >> bernie sanders still has his eyes on the prize, as clinton edges closer to the democratic nomination. back with me is my panel, jonathan and michael and joining me is maria teresa kumar of voter latino. let's play another little bite from bernie sanders this morning. this is bernie sanders on cnn talking about the state of the race and what would happen if he were not the nominee. take a listen. >> if i am not the nominee and we're going to fight to become the nominee, it is secretary clinton's job to explain to those people why she should be -- why she should get their support.

and that means she's going to have to address their needs. secretary clinton will have to make the convincing argument to them how could it be she is getting huge amounts of money from wall street and other powerful interests and she is going to stand up and fight for them. >> are you going to work hard to make sure that donald trump loses and the democratic candidate, whether it's you or her -- >> yes. >> wins. >> yes. >> so you have a dual message there. you have bernie sanders saying he will do everything he can to make sure donald trump doesn't win. this is what you want is michael steele doing the dance. bernie sanders is giving a dual message. he'll do everything he can to defeat your candidate, donald trump, but he isn't conceding the nomination. what i am getting, the back channeling i'm getting is he wants to fight all the way to the convention floor. is that what you're hearing, jonathan? meanwhile democrats on capitol hill are signaling they want him to make a deal to ease out beforehand. what are you hearing? >> it's not what i'm hearing, it's what he's saying. it's what his wife, jane

sanders, is saying. they're going to be in it until july. and the idea -- it's not that, you know, he's doing this balancing act of saying i'm going to defeat trump if i'm not the nominee. no, she's got to make the case, she's got to do this, she's got to do that. but will you defeat donald trump? yes. it's like jesus take the wheel. eight years ago when we had this situation with senator obama and senator clinton, when we were into june and we didn't know who the nominee was going to be, barack obama becomes the nominee. what did hillary clinton do? she gave that speech -- wait, wait, wait, i'm not finished. i'm not finished. but unlike bernie sanders, who puts the onus on her, the challenger, to make the case, hillary clinton eight years ago was the one who said i'm out of the race and i urge my supporters to support the democratic nominee and this in

that clip right there demonstrates why bernie sanders is not a democrat and that's why he's going to go all the way to the convention, the party be damned. >> unlike what hillary was doing, he's giving fodder to the republican nominee, which is why we have michael steele here dancing. this is exactly what i want. instead of saying, look, i want to give the opportunity for everybody to cast their vote and then we'll actually decide it at the convention, that would say that, yes, i am conceding, but he's trying to play two flips of the same coin and it's not going to work very well when it comes to consolidating the democratic party. >> let me throw out an alternate theory before michael steele does his happy dance. the alternate theory bernie sanders, yes, primarily he is an independent but he's also a cause guy. this is a cause for him, it's not just a campaign. he's not primarily interested in democrats winning votes. he's not primarily interested in the incrementalism of consolidating washington power. if he had been, he'd have made

more deals when he was actually there. what he's trying to do is bring a movement to a conclusion in a successful way. if he stays in and keeps fighting all the way to the convention floor, is there a case to be made that he keeps his supporters energized so that once he makes a deal he can say to them i got you something rather than i just conceded and walked away? >> i think that he's trying -- i think he's right in trying to create a platform. he has forced hillary clinton to be much more progressive in ways that she hasn't been in ways that she hasn't been in 30 years. that said, though, his tone and the rhetoric that he's saying is going to make it very difficult to bring in the bernie bros to support hillary clinton and that's where the danger does. >> go ahead and do your dance. >> i like my weekend at bernie's. this has been -- this has been -- >> are you feeling the bern. >> this has been the longest weekend in history. it's been great. no, here's the reality. you touched on the most important thing at the end of your tirade and that was bernie sanders is not a democrat. the democrats have allowed a

socialist democrat to come in and hijack their process. they had other democrats on the stage. martin o'malley and of course hillary clinton. they went past all that and said bernie. so now by sitting and stewing in this soup going, well, you need to embrace hillary. why? there's no incentive for him to embrace hillary. to your point, he's got a movement that he has generated within the rank and file of the democrat party that is not supportive of hillary clinton, that is concerned about the e-mails. we don't talk about that. and a whole lot of other things. >> first of all, let's take a look -- that's not what is motivating bernie sanders. >> i know that. i'm just saying that there are issues out there that do motivate them. i just wanted to go back to the last segment. but i think a lot of folks need to just, you know, realize that he is an asymmetrical player on the left just as we have our

asymmetrical player on the right. he's not going to come to hillary the way you want him to and the way the party wants him to. this is his reality. >> at the rate he's going, he might as well be donald trump's speechwriter because he says it at 2:00 in the afternoon, donald trump will repeat it as a knock on hillary clinton at 4:00. and so, you know, if bernie sanders -- >> and i think a lot of the republicans are actually wanting bernie sanders to go into the race because all of a sudden it's very much this independent voters, republican women that may not feel okay to vote for donald trump, saying we don't want a socialist in the white house. that motivates them for donald trump. >> i'm in my role of contrarian today.pporters on my twitter feed are completely confused right now. bernie sanders has been an independent this whole time but he's also caucused with democrats and voted with them 90% of the time. even though, yes, probably half of bernie sanders voters and supporters are independents, but another good chunk of them are

democrats. they're big time liberal long-time democrats. i know some bernie sanders supporters, they are not independents, they are democrats. what they're looking for is a sale to be made by hillary clinton as to why they should get on board with her campaign. isn't it possible since bernie sanders is the only salesman who can do it or elizabeth warren, at the end of the day what should democrats be offering bernie sanders to get him to come and make that sale to his supporters? what should they be offering him? >> i don't know. i don't know what they'll accept. >> i do. >> i think it's hitting a lot of thesis issues of wage eqty, show that there is reform within wall street. there's areas that hillary has not wanted to espouse but because he's elevated it, she can actually come in and talk about it. >> it may not be the e-mails, but it is wall street, it is -- >> are folks drinking right now? >> i'm trying to get your sunday started, folks. those of you about to go to mimosa, every time, e-mails. it is wall street, it is her

coziness with wall street, so they want -- they want to see that separation. they want to feel comfort that she's not going to be playing footsie with them if she gets the nomination and goes on to become president. there are issues like that for a lot of those democrats and a lot of those progressives in the party that she has not given them comfort on and that's what they're waiting for. >> guess what, we're at the ending of the segment and you got the last word. don't say i don't love you. all of my guests will be back later in the hour. up next, bill clinton's nemesis from the '90s now facing a scandal of his own. that story when we come back.

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>> if you're old enough to remember president clinton's infamous answer from 1988, then you're familiar with the prosecutor who led the investigation into the monica lewinsky scandal. well, now ken starr is embroiled in a scandal of his own. on wednesday he resigned as chancellor of baylor university a week after being ousted as the school's president. baylor is investigating allegations that starr and other school officials mishandled allegations of sexual assault by football players. starr told espn that he did not know about the allegations until media reports surfaced last year. in an interview on wednesday with cbs stations kwtx in waco, texas, starr was asked whether he had seen a former student's e-mail alleging that she had been raped. >> what about the victim that came forward saying that she had personally sent you an e-mail and art briles an e-mail saying in the subject line that she was raped at baylor. did you ever see that e-mail? >> i honestly may have. i'm not denying that i saw it.

>> this is the point where things got weird. according to the reporter, at that moment a woman, who turns out to be a prominent public relations operative, named mary spaith, interrupted the interview and ask that that portion be excluded. when the station refused, the reporter, julie hayes, says that spaith demanded to talk to starr privately and previously pulled starr out of the room. when he returned to the interview, the reporter asked the question again. >> we asked starr again but he answers and turns to spaith for coaching. >> all i've got to say is i honestly have no recollection of that. >> of seeing any e-mail. >> is that okay? >> and then starr answers again. >> i honestly have no recollection of seeing such an e-mail and i believe that i would remember seeing such an e-mail. the president of the university gets lots of e-mails. i don't even see a lot of the

e-mails that come into the office of the president. >> don't look at me, look at her. >> in a statement to "a.m. joy" starr says his answer matches the response he's given in a previous interview. he said there is no discrepancy in my answers. to the contrary, the answers are entirely consistent and they are truthful. starr goes on to add that a subsequent search of his e-mail archives revealed that an e-mail was received on november 3rd of 2015. and he says that his office promptly forwarded it to the appropriate school personnel. up next, trump's terrible, horrible, no good, very bad week. was it a blip or the beginning of something new? you don't let anything keep you sidelined.

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>> donald trump has been fending off attacks from all sides this week. one of them you just heard, hillary clinton giving what some analysts are calling the best speech of her political career, ridiculing donald trump as dangerously uninformed, temperamentally unsuited and unfit to be president. clinton targeted trump the same day paul ryan said he would vote for trump in november. he gave hi endorsement with the caveat that when i feel the need, to i'll continue to speak my mind. well, the need arose on the very next day when ryan found himself joining the chore us of critics who spoke out against trump's racialized attack on a federal judge. >> look, the comment about the judge the other day was just out of left field from my mind. it's reasoning i don't relate to. i completely disagree with the thinking behind that. and so he clearly says and does things i don't agree w i've had

to speak up from time to time when that has occurred and i'll continue to do that if it's necessary. >> after trump wrapped up this week to this shoutout at a friday rally in california. >> we had a case where we had an african-american guy who was a fan of mine, great fan, great guy. in fact i want to find out what's going on with him. you know -- look at my african-american over here. look at him. >> after primary season of teflon trump, could this be the week something finally starts to stick? back with me, maria teresa kumar and michael steele. trump then tries to fix the african-american thing by tweeting out a picture of -- he must have googled, he retweeted some guy who googled black family and it was a completely random black family that had nothing to do with donald trump. they have come out and said what are you talking about, we're not voting for donald trump. >> at a family reunion in cincinnati. >> and suddenly they wound up in

a donald trump retweet. donald trump on race, the tone deafness, the taco tweet, and going after this federal judge, this is not going to stop. i know republicans are saying at some point trump is going to pivot and behave differently but i want you to listen to trump today. today. this is him on "face the nation" being asked about his attacks on judge curiel in his trump university case. take a listen. >> he's a member of a club or society, very strongly pro-mexican, which is all fine. but i say he's got bias. i want to build a wall. i'm going to build a wall. this judge has treated me very unfairly. he's treated me in a hostile manner. and there's something going on. >> if it were a muslim judge, would you also feel like they wouldn't be able to treat you fairly because of that policy of yours? >> it's possible, yeah, yeah, that would be possible absolutely. >> are you, a, glad you're not the rnc chair anymore? >> you do not believe. >> how does trump fix this? >> oh, former, it works, it works. look, a couple of things.

one, this is not the space he needs to be in right now. not so much from the presidential campaign, set that aside for a moment, but from the fact that he's entangled in serious litigation that will cost him a lot of money potentially. number two, he needs to -- he needs to pivot away from that. i think the conversation is not resonating, even with a lot of his supporters. they want him to move off of that, largely because people don't look at the world through that lens. they don't look at -- >> but some people do. >> some people do. >> and the fact that this case is not going to be decided until after november, there is no need for him to act -- after the election, there's no need for him to talk about the judge's ethnicity unless it's a dog whistle to white individuals that are feeling uncomfortable with the changing demographics. it's like, you know, man, i kind of feel that way too, trump does too. so i think he's overcalculating to ensure that he has a constant drum beat -- >> he actually is one of those

people. isn't it possible that the reason that donald trump can't pivot off of this is that he's actually speaking for himself? >> i think it's a little bit different than that. i think it actually may be setting himself up for an appeal. when the decision is finally made on the case, that he's got this record now, this six, seven-month record of concerns about this judge. again, you make the point about how he's looking at this case. he's not looking at it as a presidential candidate or through the lens of politics, he's looking through the lens that he's involved in litigation just like he's been involved in other litigations. >> not everybody who's involved in litigation goes to race and ethnicity. he does. >> if it had been a female judge, he would have done the same thing. also i think it's this idea of america is changing they quickly. a lot of people don't see themselves in this new america and he knows exactly how to press those buttons so he can continue garnering support. >> if that is the case, because this is the most racialized

campaign. it's been described as the most ethno national campaign since wallace and pat buchanan. he's appealing to a lot of those same voters but the problem is there aren't as many of those voters as there were when ronald reagan ran or pat buchanan. the projection is a 69% white electorate. can you win an election. michael steele -- >> no, you can't. >> you were talking about having to diversify and get black voters back. >> no, you cannot. both parties, and especially the republican party, has to be all about addition, not subtraction. and so you cannot put your party nor your presidential campaign in a space where you have latinos, you have african-americans and others looking at you cross-eyed. the reality of it is he's got to get off of this conversation. he's got to focus -- >> but is it too late? >> i don't think it's too late because the convention and a whole lot of stuff hasn't happened. >> i want to go to mitch mcconnell. he was asked about this very

thing on thursda take a listen to what he said. >> do you worry at all that your nominee now, donald trump, will do to latino voters what barry goldwater did to african-american voters? >> i do, i do. and i think that the attacks that he's routinely engaged in, for example, going after susana martinez, the republican governor of new mexico, the chairman of the republican governors association i think was a big mistake. >> agreed. >> every time he says mexican, he's trying to use it as a slur, as a dirty word, and that is a dog whistle to latinos and people who care about them all over the place. we've been here before. it's almost impossible to hear anybody's platform if at the end of the day they are actually not respecting you in a fundamental way. >> michael, you know as well as anyone else that back in the 1960s before the goldwater campaign, 35% of african-americans upwards were republican. 35% or more.

you had dwight eisenhower getting north of 30%. getting about 36%. you had richard nixon even got north of 30%. can republicans going forward, even itch they're able to -- they're going to stick with donald trump, we know that's what's going to happen. but are they risking by consolidating and marrying their brands to his brand -- >> unfortunately that's the nature of the political process. you'll see the same thing with bernie sanders and elizabeth warren supporters relative to the establishment types in terms of how that brand marries up different. >> but it's not a racial demographic relationship. >> it's ideological on the democratic side. but it is a problem for the brand, there's no doubt about it. it makes it harder down the road. >> i'm sorry, we're out of time. you guys will be back later. up next, the potential third-party candidate who first made news right here on "a.m. joy." llergies get between you and life's beautiful moments. with flonase allergy relief, they wont.

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i know for a fact an awful lot of republicans are throwing in for donald trump right now because they feel like they have no other option. you hear all the time a vote if you're not voting for donald trump, you're voting for hillary clinton. >> right. >> false. what if you're not voting for donald trump, you're voting for someone you actually believe in, you actually respect and will actually do the right things for this country? >> that was conservative lawyer and national review writer david french, who just last week on "a.m. joy" was touting his former boss, mitt romney, as the last best hope for the thus far ineffective never trump movement. but now with a romney spoiler ruled out, it was suggested earlier in the week that french himself might run as the next last hope for a third-party win. a development teased up by french supporter bill kristol who last week tweeted just a heads up over this holiday weekend, there will be an independent candidate, an impressive one, with a strong

team and a real chance. while french's credentials the response has been fair at best. reince priebus on thursday. >> look, i don't want to say anything disparaging against the guy because i don't know him and i'm sure he's a good person, but i think it's also just a sort of suicide mission and a huge distraction. i think it's sort of silly, to tell you the truth. >> suicide mission? silly? that was the polite assessment. without naming french directly, trump himself had some choice words for kristol this week. >> bill kristol is a loser. his magazine is failing, as you know. he's trying to drive you guys a little bit nuts. if they do an indie, assuming it's decent, which i don't think anybody with a reputation would do it because they'd look like fools. but what you're going to do is you lose the election for the republicans.

>> guess we'll just have to wait and see if a magazine writer will succeed where nine governors, five senators, a businesswoman and a neurosurgeon have failed. up next, what will be the big stories that we'll be talking about this week? my panel weighs in when we come back. you can worry about them. you can even choose a car for them. (mom) honey, are you ok? (child) i'm ok. (announcer vo) love. (mom) we're ok. (announcer vo) it's what makes a subaru, a subaru. working on my feet all day gave min my knees. but now, i step on this machine and get my number which matches my dr. scholl's custom fit orthotic inserts. now i get immediate relief from my foot pain. my knee pain. find a machine at drscholls.com

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all right. what are going to be the big stories next week? >> i actually think that hillary is going to beat out california. but that doesn't mean that bernie sanders is going to drop out. i think he's going to go all the way to contested. >> long, hot summer. >> i'm going to go on the republican side and say that the headline is going to be about the continued failure of the long-awaited donald trump pivot to being presidential, which will become more pronounced come tuesday, once we have two

presumptive nominees. it will be hillary clinton and donald trump. and the craziness we saw last week i think will be even more pronounced next week. >> they can't rein him in. >> it's a good team. he should listen to them. >> paul manafort has experience. maybe he'll be as successful with donald trump. >> i think -- here's one for you, a headline, flash. >> what? [ laughter ]. >> what does that even mean? >> bernie sanders ekes out a win in california. >> the reason he can't, i think, because in order to vote as an independent you have to ask for a non-party preference ballot.

>> i'm just going back to bernie has -- >> it's a dream, not a headline. >> there you go. >> this is new york all over again. remember, people were like why is she spending so much time in new york. she blew him out in new york. part of the reason is because bernie sanders and his team did not spend the time to educate their supporters on what they needed to do to actually vote for their candidate. >> right. >> california is a semi open primary. >> i get all of that. i stick with my headline. >> a polling company said 40% of the people wanted to vote for a democrat but only 15% of them had actually asked for a ballot. for the second time in a week michael steel is proproosed as

running mate for donald trump. are you going to run? >> i have gotten no phone calls. >> she's all tenses. >> if asked, will you serve? >> i have to talk to my wife. >> it's up to your wife? >> we know how that conversation is going to go. >> you have a brand michael steele which is trying to diversify in terms of bringing it out into african-american communities. you have been all about the addition for the republican par party. would you marry your brand to someone like donald trump? >> i'm all about help. ing anybody who needs help. i think donald trump needs help in this area. there's no doubt about it. i think he understands that but doesn't understand how to make that turn. one of my frustrations in the

party with the never trump and all that, let's stop the internal fight and focus on how we help him better position for a real fight against hillary. >> why do we not have that same sort of sense on the democratic side where the conversation is about how to bring hillary clinton and sanders supporters together? it does feel like more of a fight on the democratic side than on the republican side. >> you have republicans talking to republicans about their presumptive republican nominee. on the democrat side you have democrats trying to convince a nondemocrat who's running as a democrat but who's really a socialist -- >> last word. >> the republican party is actually saying they were going to do a contested convention. in california, when ala te lati

into that voting booth, they may love bernie sanders but -- >> thank you very much. that's our show for this hour. i'll be back at 3:00 p.m. eastern for coverage of today's democratic primary in puerto rico and the whopping 60 delegates at stake there. more news at the top of the hour. ♪

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homeowners insurance life insurance automobile insurance i spent 20 years active duty they still refer to me as "gunnery sergeant" when i call being a usaa member because of my service in the military to pass that on to my kids something that makes me happy my name is roger zapata and i'm a usaa member for life. usaa. we know what it means to serve. get an insurance quote and see why 92% of our members plan to stay for life. good day, everyone. i'm alex witt here in new york at msnbc world headquarters. today could turn out to be a critical one in the democratic race for president while the republican nominee keeps getting entangles in controversy. to the political headlines and new reaction from donald trump on whether attacks against the federal judge handling one of his trump university lawsuits are racist. >>