welcome back. i'm chris matthews up in new york. it's been four hours sinced the polls closed in puerto rico. they closed at 3:00 eastern. the vote still characterized as too early to call. hillary clinton has -- excuse me kwshs has been leading ever since we started putting a characterization to it. there are 67 delegates at stake out there on the island, including seven superdelegates. the democratic race, of course, is heading for a potential climax tuesday night when six states including new jersey and california hold their primaries. according to nbc's count, connect clinton is fewer than 60 delegates away from winning the nomination. while clinton calls for the party to unite, now senator bernie sanders is defiant, threatening to bring his fight all the way to the convention. nbc's kelly o'donnell is in san diego with the sanders campaign. give us the sense that we can't see on tv, my favorite question, and i'm going to give it to you, because it's my favorite question, what can can't we see on television about the attitude

persisten persistence, whatever, passion of the sanders campaign about whether they're going to throw in the towel after tuesday or fight it to the convention? >> the first thing you can't see on tv is all of us wanting to say bless you, chris, after that sneeze on camera, a rare moment. so, gesundheit. the thing you don't see is that there is a real sense of dedication that is typical with campaigns that allows them to be a little bit separate from the public math. and you can understand why. if you're working for a candidate, if you believe in a candidate, if you're one of the supporters coming here to see bernie sanders, and you really believe he's the candidate, until the voting is over, there is a willingness to not see the outside facts. facts like hillary clinton is ahead in the popular vote, ahead in the pledged delegates, ahead in the superdelegates. and until that tipping point happens they believe it is worth the fight. you also find in talking with a

lot of the voters who are supporting bernie sanders, there is a mix. i tend to find there are older voters among his crowds and audiences. a greater willingness to say that come the fall election they do not want to see a donald trump elected. therefore they would support hillary clinton if she were the nominee. but for many of the younger voters, and not just first time, but perhaps into their 20s or so, believe in bernie sanders in a way that they will say they don't quite know. so one of the concerns will be if, in fact, clinton is the nominee, and sanders does not prevail, will some of his supporters simply stay home? now he has vowed to do a couple of things. to fight against donald trump. to fight to change the nominating process for the democratic party. if he does not succeed. but between now and the results on tuesday for california this final push, sanders believes there's a narrow hold to get him there and he believes there's a momentum argument that he's

brought a lot of energy to the process and that superdelegates should give that some thought. that would be asking superdelegates to kind of go against all the convention of times past, but until that happens, he is willing to say that he is not pleeped to simply fold and go to the unity. >> i think -- >> this is a different year. >> thank you so much kelly owe done who is down here in san diego following the sanders campaign. let's bring in my panel joy reed, host of a.m. joy, weekend mornings. i love when we come up with titles for these shows, and nicolas, political reporter for "the new york times," let me just try to deal with this. i know a lot of people watch this show are progressives, some on the left, some on the center left, some people in the middle, and a few stray dogs over there. i'm trying to figure this thing out. >> stray dogs. >> you're new today here. you haven't been on nick.

doing this totally objectively i don't see a good case for bernie to throw in the towel until he has gotten right at the convention in philly, he has stormed into that convention with all his bernie or bust crowd behind him. with all the leverage in the world. because at that point he can say i may not be with hillary clinton. you want to be like that. you want to have all that leverage. you don't want to give any of it away by saying i'll eventually be with her. i think although he'll grudgingly say i don't want trump to be president i think that's all he will give at this point. >> the second he folds he loses all the leverage even with the delegates he has. if he wants to pursue some substantive changes to the platform, to the process, i'm not sure he has much choice but to stay in the race. the question is what arguments is he employing to stay in the race. the more he talks about a rigged process, the harder it is to change tacks and become a fellow democrat after the convention. >> you mean as long as he -- you think he's suggesting now that it's crooked?

a few days ago he started backing away from the idea. now he's making arguments that he hasn't made through the whole primary, about the clinton foundation -- >> capital punishment. i heard a new one. i think you were the one who reported that. >> right. >> the democratic party i don't think has ever taken a position against capital punishment per se because they always throw in the terrorism stuff and hate claims and other aspects that have a political tang to them. i think you should be -- apparently there's a new kind of thing where hillary clinton says i'm for it in certain cases. >> putting that on the table, particularly for african-american is a big issue because we have a disproportionate number of people on death row. and who goes to death row versus others. but she's very strong. she's still strong on the issue of death penalty and they are trying to bring her down on that. also back on the try that you ask i think hillary clinton and bernie sanders are walking a

very tight rope. especially while donald trump is out there and he's getting people to come on particularly like paul ryan. one of the things bernie sanders has the leverage, a key piece. the independents that support him ho are against hillary on trade. >> who are these people. >> are they working class people? >> these young people who love bernie sanders, who worship -- >> why would a kid in his 20s, why would a millennial care about trade as an issue. >> i think it's working class white voters have not been as affixed to the democratic party in recent years and are not as thrilled by hillary clinton. >> on the trade issue. >> let's talk about the trade issue. hillary clinton was for the trade deal until she ran for president. >> right. >> i was in tokyo when bill clinton said it was a fabulous deal a year ago with caroline kennedy. so he obviously is not to be believed on this. so wait a minute, is she really

against the trade deal or would she support it in a lame duck and get it over with? >> right now running for president there's so many -- the urban vote, the black vote is, the black woman's vote is for her. black women are running families and black women are hurt when the economy is bad. >> trade is an issue? >> urban cities like baltimore, like philadelphia, who've been hurt when manufacturing is pulled away, and put in other country. so that is a problem for many people, so -- >> so the guy on the street corner to use -- the guy or woman on the street corner that pays some attention to politics thinks in terms of trade as the cause of the -- >> no he thinks the term is i don't have money in my pocket. it's not working for me. >> they think it's the trade issue. >> if they're looking for a job and there used to be a manufacturing company not far from their home, wow what happened here? it doesn't feel good to them, it doesn't work for them, it's personal. it's your pocketbook. >> where bernie sanders and

donald trump align is in wisconsin, illinois, the deindustrialized part of the country, pennsylvania. they're saying that the cause of your problem is the outsourcing of jobs to mexico and also donald trump throws in china abusing our system and our economics. i think bernie sanders and -- >> also the party elite is basically fully in favor of -- >> both parties? >> this is a real issue in which the party leader is often at odds -- >> major -- >> they're all free trade -- >> because we were all taught in grad school and college in the end all countries benefit from free trade. we were all taught that. let me ask you about a fight. i have such a memory of politics in my head. i remember richard nixon running against kennedy in a close race. he had to cut a deal with another republican to sell out on fifth avenue or whatever it was called with rockefeller. he had to make himself much more liberal than he wanted to. if hillary clinton is seen cutting a big deal with sanders

on health care, student loans, social security, if she's seen as buckling over to the left because bernie squeezed her does that hurt her against trump? >> i'm not sure it does. a couple of those issues that he would squeeze her on are bringing her closer to where some of those swing trump voters might be. so that could help her -- >> more of a populist. >> i just think, look, if she flip-flops completely on an issue because of bernie sanders, that would hurt her. but i think if he nudges her over, if he gets some promises to be firmer on student loan forgiveness, i'm not sure it hurts her because on paper she supports a lot of those goals in the broadest sense. >> i can tell you that right now just on a little bit of a reporting sense you are starting to see democrats on capitol hill coalescing around an end game strategy for bernie sanders in which they have changed the mind apparently of senator harry reid who's been dead set against any senator, any sitting senator from a state with a republican governor being on the ticket. he's now warming to the idea of elizabeth warren on the ticket as an end game -- >> you mean my guy might be the

running mate? >> no i think sherrod brown might be. i think harry reid would fight him being on that ticket because he doesn't want kasich picking his replacement. >> he just said -- >> he would be open to warren because in elizabeth warren's case massachusetts has a thing called a special election which democrats could fight that. you'd have a temporary replacement in there. but in ohio the replacement would be until the end of the term. i'm telling you the democrats are starting to warm to the idea of bringing bernie sanders into the tent through elizabeth warren. >> wait a minute, they just had their caucus meeting in massachusetts yesterday, and they are like trying to figure out how to unify. >> i don't know. >> a lot of democrats are skeptical about it -- >> you think that -- >> i think if your goal is to bring over bernie sanders -- >> do you think it makes sense -- >> if you want people who -- the sanders supporters it does. >> hillary and elizabeth warren? >> no it doesn't make sense.

just like bernie sanders and hillary clinton, they're at odds. hillary clinton and elizabeth warren are -- >> she is -- >> she is our -- >> would you want her -- >> powerful -- >> would you want her two doors down in the west wing if you're president? >> she has the people for her but the problem is the chemistry, those two working together, that is a big -- >> but she knows how to -- >> president al gore -- but in fact it was kind of a comparison or rather a doubling down -- >> gore played ball the whole time. >> doubling down of the qualities that made him attractive as a ticket. and i think an election that's going to polarize gender, doubling down -- >> elizabeth warren said -- >> i'll tell you three quick statistics. republicans have had a white woman voting advantage of r-plus 14 with romney. r-plus 7 with mccain. r-plus 11 with george w. bush. if elizabeth warren flips white women voters, particularly suburban voters that eats away at that republican advantage with white women. -- >> she's not going to do it.

-- >> she's a great attack dog -- >> elizabeth warren is cut from a different cloth. >> appears we have a diversity of opinion here. i don't agree with this. thank you. respectfully i think elizabeth warren is not a number two. >> i agree with you. >> by her nature she's not a number two. i'm not knocking her bshs >> but neither is kick cheney. >> she's an alpha female. >> i don't think you want her two doors down taking orders. you go to the funeral next week, i don't think she's going to do this. i don't think that's her nature -- >> i'm just saying -- >> warming to it. >> chris and i are right here. >> i think we're all here in diversity of opinion is the nature of -- i'm not playing like i'm smarter i'm just saying i'm different. >> you are really different. >> we'll be right back. coming up, we'll continue to follow all the political news tonight. you're going to see bill clinton and hillary clinton at two separate events in california.

they're fighting hard. obviously they really want to win california. the big dog's been out there for a couple of days now. bill clinton is very popular in california and he may do the trick. the big story this weekend is the death of muhammad ali. when we return we'll talk to former heavyweight champ evander holy feed. field. show me movies with romance.

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what's recommended for me. x1 makes it easy to find what you love. call or go online and switch to x1. only with xfinity. we're back and we're going to get back to politics in just a minute but the big news this weekend is the death of woxing great muhammad ali. and lit today ali's body was taken to a funeral home in louisville, kentucky, where a funeral will be held this friday. nbc's ron mott is in louisville tonight. >> chris, good evening to you. you know it's been fairly busy here today outside the muhammad ali center in downtown louisville. we're expecting it will get a lot busier as we head toward the funeral on friday. people have been coming by all day even after the sun goes down to take pictures, lay flowers, write tributes to him. i just went in to the center for the first time this afternoon.

it's a beautiful collection of artifacts and a wonderful way to preserve his legacy for generations going forward. you guys have been talking a lot on this show about politics and how divisive our politics around the country have become. muhammad ali obviously became a divisive figure himself back in the '60s for those hard-line stands he took. but there is no division here. this is a rainbow of people from all walks of life. young people who have never seen him fight in the ring all the way to the older folks who were a part of his generation. of all faiths, as well. tonight, because faith was such an important part of muhammad ali's life, they're holding an interfaith service welcoming people of all walks of faith to come together to celebrate and honor his accomplishments, and his commitment to faith. and his spreading the word of love and peace around the world that wuns won him hundreds of millions of fans, and as we have been reporting, one of the most recognized figures in all of the world right up there, and perhaps even surpassing people like the pope and the

presidents, whoever the sitting president happened to be of the united states. >> do you know who's coming this friday to the services? i have not heard whether president obama will be here. woo do know that president clinton will be one of the yule gists, as well as our former colleague bryant gumbel, and billy crystal who did a great impression of muhammad ali. they were close and shared memories together. there will be other celebrities coming to town. the day starts with a 19-mile funeral procession and it will wind through parts of louisville that have institutions and landmarks that were important to muhammad ali in his life coming up we do anticipate that there will be people who will walk out of their businesses, to line the streets, if that procession happens to go by their place of business. so it's going to be a powerful day, an emotional day friday. >> too bad we don't have howard cosell among those because he was part of the story in a very strange way. i think we can agree. >> yes. >> thank you so much ron for that serious reporting.

muhammad ali was one of the very few men to earn the right to be called heavyweight champion of the world. i'm joined by another member of that elite fraternity, evander holyfield. thank you so much for coming on. i was watching the rumble in the jungle the other night, i know you want to talk about social issues but i still don't understand how a guy can get pummeled by someone as strong and passionate a boxer as george foreman for three rounds, pounded, pounded, pounded, as hard as the guy could hit with fury, and then all of a sudden, magically come alive and knock the guy out. i don't get that. is it something in the shock absorbers of the ring ropes? how does this work, this engineering? your thoughts? >> well, it's a will, you have to have a will to win. and people who have confidence and who have faith tend to take chances. you know, it didn't seem like a good chance because everybody know if you stay on that rope

george foreman would break you down. and he did the right thing. he made the adjustment, and came back and caught him with a couple punches that allowed him to win that fight. >> i was in cairo on my way home from two years in africa in the peace corps, and a guy walking around, white guy with long hair and safari jacket and old clothes and he said these cairo kids, egyptian kids, this is 1971 in the midst of the conflict over the draft and everything, and these kids came up to me, just american, said you know john wayne? i said no. you know muhammad ali? and i said -- i don't know him but i know who he is. they said, you don't say anything wednesday muhammad ali. the international recognition and support for him i don't think there's ever been anything like it. how these kids about 6, 7 years old, they knew who this guy was and he was their hero over in egypt. >> well, yeah, it's amazing that, you know, what people gravitate towards.

>> let me ask you about the social mission of this guy because he was a muslim gentleman, he was a convert to the religion. he was also probably the most well-known popular, if you will, even though it was a generational and political thing, well-known american figure of his time. >> well, he was ali. he was, when i was a kid at 8 years old i told -- i was told i could be like ali. kind of changed my life. because, ali's the first person somebody say i could be like. >> yeah. >> and my mom said listen, you can be that. and here i am today, was able to do the things that he does. >> watching here knock that guy out. like a total offense. he just -- it's just, i guess we got the highlight films here. these are the knockout films. it's just unbelievable how boxing can be boring at times. i grew up with the gillette fights on friday night and the schmidt fights on wednesday nights as a kid in philly.

every fight he was in he was punching like mad. he just kept punching. and it was so exciting to watch. >> well, you know, ali -- ali had the pizzazz. he had everything that was necessary, quick reflex, and you know, charming, and he looked beatable, but couldn't nobody beat him. >> i know he fought liston. liston was frightening. he had been in prison, was a really nasty looking guy. he goes in and beats calls big ugly bear and taunting stuff and then he goes after foreman. these are a couple occasions where sheer, physical guts to just walk in the ring. tell me what that feels like. what's it like to walk in the ring when you know the other guy is bigger, stronger, scarier than you are physically? >> well, that's where it take -- that really takes confidence and that's what you talk about faith, you know. it was amazing for a guy to be breathing on you and you breathing on him, and you tell

him i'm going to be back. and when he come back he's stronger and you stronger and you call got -- it take a lot of confidence. and the person who take the chance to take the chance to win, is one that usually win. >> was he the greatest? >> well, no doubt he was the greatest in his era. >> what do you make of these -- when they figure you're an expert on this, they try to figure out who you fought, who you beat, figure out whether he was better than marciano. marciano was a puncher but i'm not sure he's a great fighter. he just kept punching. he wasn't as skilled as this guy. is anybody in his field, was frazier close? was frazier close to this guy? >> well you know, the thing is, styles make fights, styles make fights and the person who tend to take a chance and it's something that ali used to say. i'm greater than anybody was before me. >> yeah. >> and he's right.

because, you get to learn from the people before you. you know, it's just like your parent, teacher or something you become better than them. you're supposed to. >> how come archie moore came back and fight muhammad? why did patterson come back? they were the greatest of their times. they all came back and tried to beat him. what was it, the purse? >> the thing is that as athlete, you know, we have faith. faith is taking a chance and losing. that what faith is all about. it wouldn't be faith if you knew you could beat the guy. so you know, this is -- that's the confidence that we have as fighters to want to be the very best. >> okay let's talk about the comebacks. because he came back and beat frazier twice, ken norton. he had to win, like you. winning that title back. what's that like? once you've lost it? >> well for one thing people have to realize when you lose your first fight, your

confidence can just drop. >> yeah. >> and you know, so it's -- you know, you got to think, it ain't been that many people did it, patterson the first guy to ever do it, too. of course ali the first person to do it three. the thing about all the years nobody could come back. you know, you know, somehow, if you lose, it's almost like you don't your confidence just fall. >> i'm thinking like patterson losing to ingmar johannson, but he had one good right-hand punch and he won that fight but he lost to frazier he said afterwards the guy beat me. i mean he really did beat him in that first fight and when he came back from being you know disallowed to go -- championship taken away by the government basically and how do you go back against the guy who actually does beat you? >> yeah just like me getting

beat, i have to go back. but you know, i realized that you know what? i have to make some adjustment, life's about adjustments. you know. >> you guys are great. there's nothing like boxing. there's nothing like boxing. you know, it isn't like it was. but you made it great, too. thank you evander holyfield for coming on the show tonight to talk about the greatest. >> thank you, too. >> great spirit from you, sir. up next, back to politics. hillary clinton ratcheting up her attacks on --

you see all these guys. you know the thing that bothers me about this is? they say everybody that disagrees with them is a part of some nefarious establishment. a pretty big establishment. i didn't want to pick a fight. if i was them i'd be screaming too. because if you figure this out -- >> bill clinton responding tonight responding to a crowd chanting bernie. welcome back to this special

edition of "hardball." tuesday night, the big prize is california. let's check in with steve kornacki at the big board for the big state of california. >> let's take a look. bernie sanders thinks he can win here and there have been some polls coming out that show he's got a real shot at it. take a look at ours here. the nbc/"wall street journal"/marist poll, 49-47. they're both democrats in case you're wondering. but a two-point lead in our poll. here's the interesting thing though. you're always hearing what from bernie sanders? the higher the turnout, the more people that show up, the more we can expand this electorate, and really the more independents who turn out to vote, the better a chance he's going to have of winning. that's something that our polls show. take a look at this. this is among what we generally think of as the most likely people to turn out and vote. but, if you expand that a little bit. instead of having likely voters you have potential voters in california, you go from hillary clinton up to 49-47 to what?

to bernie sanders, winning the state narrowly a small shift but that would be a decisive shift. it would take bernie sanders from a two-point gap, move him to a one-point lead. if you drill down a little bit more, we know that older people vote more than younger people. check out the divide in california when you look at age. voters over 45, hillary clinton trouncing bernie sanders by 30 points. under 45, sanders up even more by 36. you can see by the way the fact he's winning more among this group than she is among that group and yet she's leading statewide. that tells you, less turnout here. but here's the chance for sanders. in california one of the states that's basically an open primary state. basically any independent who wants to turn out and vote in the democratic primary can. so in this case if sanders can get those independents, can get those young people to turn out in larger numbers he does have a shot here in california. >> remember denzel washington in the movie philadelphia.

>> sure. >> remember the lawyer said explain this to my grandmother. okay. explain to my grandmother why the age difference here. >> bernie sanders has -- the only interesting thing, too, it took a 74-year-old guy to get it looks like college students really excited about this. bernie sanders is offering a message of revolution here. of radical change. of fast change. hillary clinton is arguing something more incremental. something more about understanding the battles of the past 20 years. and having more of a sort of pragmatic strategy as a result of that. sort of pragmatism versus idealism. isn't that the ultimate older person versus younger person dispute? >> yeah. like your grandparents will give you the candy and your parents won't. that's true! i'm sorry. i'm not knocking senator sanders but there is a parallel here. thank you, steve. i am going to bring that to the panel. hillary clinton last week turned up the heat on trump and he responded with a barrage of personal attacks on clinton. here's what the fight looked

like. >> he is not just unprepared, he is temperamentally unfit to hold an office that requires knowledge, stability, and immense responsibility. >> when you watched her today, she does not look presidential. that i can tell you. she doesn't. this is not a president. >> it's not hard to imagine donald trump leading us into a war just because somebody got under his very thin skin. >> the fact that they even allow her to participate in this race is a disgrace to the united states, it's a disgrace to our nation. >> he says he has foreign policy experience because he ran the miss universe pageant in russia. >> after what she said about me today in her phony speech, that was a phony speech, that was a donald trump hit job, i will say this, hillary clinton has to go

to jail, okay? she has to go to jail. >> she has to go to jail. there's some third world politics. have to go to jail. the election's fixed. msnbc's joy reed, and april ryan's here and nick from "the new york times." i did make that off the top thing grandparents have a way with kids. because they're not -- they don't give the kids the bad news. >> yeah. >> they gave them the good news, want to go to the candy store? and the parents have to say it's time to go to bed. >> they're not responsible for them anymore. my husband's grandmother, she was the toughest person in the world, he was raised by her, but now that she's grandma to my kids, they can get away with anything they want. >> who is that person? >> who are you? >> yeah. >> i'm serious about this, if you're in college, you're about to leave college and you're carrying $50,000 in debt, $100,000 in debt, capitalism, as a principle doesn't seem to attract him because you're a debtor. >> also i think that issue is the most important one here. if you talk to younger people overwhelmingly the issue that their financial lives and

business lives revolve around is student debt. it is actually a really big problem. and man he came out of the gate early on and he promised a big, big solution to that problem. if i was 22, and carrying a lot of college debt i'd be pretty excited, too. >> how did he know this? he was a democratic socialist. he had the philosophy of bigger government and social inequality well above this came along. when he went to college and i went to college it was about $2,000 a year. >> or it was free. and there were high quality universities. >> out in california it was free. >> i look at this whole bernie sanders phenomenon in a very different way. bernie sanders, he's not a democrat. he wasn't a democrat at the beginning. he was an independent. >> by choice. >> that's right. and that's a very good point. he became a democratic but he likes to shake it up. he walks to a different beat. and young people today, are very, i don't know, they like to shake it up. he's shaken the system up -- >> did you vote yet this year? >> yes, i did and don't ask. >> do not ask. >> who did you vote for her or

him? >> how did you even know it was her or him? why couldn't it have been him, him, him, him. okay so moving on -- i like the fact that bernie sanders -- >> see i don't know the answer. that's why i asked. >> thank you. >> i like the fact that bernie sanders is 74 years old and you don't hear a lot of young people talking about going out for this man because they think about oh, grand dad let's put him away, you know he's talking about -- >> oh -- >> a large -- >> but for him to do this the nutty professor kind of thing, grand dad who is the cool guy, that's -- >> i think it's people closer to his age that would question his age. >> hillary clinton is also a grandma. >> an old -- >> to dump hillary -- >> and the only time i've ever heard people question bernie sanders' age is older people themselves. i was in kansas or south

carolina the only people who had a problem with his age were people who are also old. >> he was the same age as jesse jackson, muhammad ali, they're all exactly the same age, 74. i think the reason that bernie sanders -- >> and joe biden as well. >> bernie sanders has been saying this exact same thing for 30, 40 years. no one was listening to it before. what he's saying doesn't sound rehearsed. because he's been, look, to be quite frank with you, to be very friendly toward the sandinistas in nicaragua. it's what he believed -- >> his wife advocated in harlem. >> his wife ran a college for better or worse. >> and he marched in the civil rights movement. >> people who are younger today have grown up in a cultural cult of authenticity everywhere in commerce and art -- >> they know this wasn't a dance learned for the occasion. >> the fact that he's like -- >> you like that phrase? >> well done. >> this is a guy who is who he

is in every way. >> he is who he was. >> goldwater was popular in the old days. different story. this guy, i think from the time he went to chicago, coming out of brooklyn, he was probably of that social democratic lning well before he went to college and he hasn't changed. that's what's interesting about it. it's like his accent has stayed the same. he stayed more politically where he began, politically. and these other issues have arisen. like the student loan debt >> but if you want to know why he doesn't want to get out because for the first time in 30 something years he's got an immense amount of crowds and people listening to him. >> can you imagine? you're so 1345r9. this human nature. >> absolutely. >> if you're a guy pushing 75 and you can go before a crowd of 10,000 young people who are screaming that you're their savior -- >> absolutely. >> who would want to walk away from that? >> the equivalent of martin luther king jr. saying you're more important than john lewis who wouldn't be caught up in that. >> he's not more authentic than john lewis. >> really past.

i think we are a nation who want something to shake somebody to shake it up and i think it really started with barack obama because he was not part of the establishment and we're seeing it with bernie sanders and donald trump for better or for worse. >> that's why i think hillary should pick sherrod brown. we're starting to see president obama get off the sidelines and get into this campaign. i think he's the october surprise. not a surprise actually but i think he's going to be mr. october as he said about reggie jackson. remember? we're going to talk about trump, too. you're watching "hardball." the place for politics.

welcome back to hard ball over the course of the 2016 campaign, president obama has not shied away from standing up and taking that fight to donald trump. and here he is delivering the commencement speech address at rutgers last month. >> the world is more interconnected than ever before. and it's becoming more connected

every day. building walls won't change that. isolating or disparaging muslims, suggesting that they should be treated differently when it comes to entering this country. it would alienate the very communities at home and abroad who are our most important partners in the fight against violent extremism. if you were listening to today's political debate, you might wonder where this strain of anti-intellectualism came from. in politics and in life, ignorance is not a virtue. it's not cool to not know what you're talking about. that's not challenging political correctness. that is not knowing what you're talking about. >> jonathan alter is an msnbc police cal analyst, jamil smith is correspondent for nbc news. joan the president of the united states is not up for re-election. >> right.

>> he is a democrat he has a legacy to uphold and certain bills he's made into law. things he cares about. it looks to me like he is going to be maybe not the surprise of october, but as i said a few moments ago, mr. october in mr. october. >> his entire legacy is at stake. if god forbid donald trump got re-elected, you know my feelings -- >> i was talking about mr. president's feelings. >> his feelings are the same as mine. he feels very strongly that they will dismantle everything he's done starting with obamacare. including executive orders. we are going to see him campaign like -- just like he did in 2012 i truly believe -- >> he might try to have him deported jamil because of the arguments he is not a naturalized citizen nor a natural born citizen. he's neither. >> right. >> so he has grounds if you listen to trump, to deport him. >> right. i think it actually helps hillary clinton in that regard, too because here it reintroduces the birther story line into the election.

i mean, frankly we've been talking a lot about trump's racism with regards to what he says about mexicans, muslims, but we have not yet talked about the birther issue as much as we -- >> talk about it. why don't we talk about it? >> because obama frankly has not put himself in to the conversation yet. once he's out on the campaign trail, once he's being quoted every single day and talking with hillary clinton i think that issue is -- >> do you think it bothers the president of the united states, the first african-american president with an interesting background, mother from kansas and a father from kenya who he never really met, do you think it bothers him when he's asked for his papers as president of the united states? >> oh, extraordinarily so. >> like if a cop stopped you and said let's see your papers, bud. it's an incredible indignity. >> it speaks a lot to the commensurate response we get to black advancement in this society. once we lose a little bit of advancement there's a huge pushback. >> by one guy. let's not generalize it. >> but it's not -- what i'm speaking to is the fact that when you have advancement by

african-americans in this country there is a back lash. and trump is that back lash put in to flesh. >> he found about 20% of the country agreed with him. that was his first 20%. then he picked up the more votes up to 40% on illegal immigration and the muslims which got him a little more. he incrementally developed groups of people that people didn't like. his people didn't like. >> barack obama does not despise very many people but he's not a hater himself. he despises company >> tell me how you figured that out. >> from some reporting when i was working on my books about obama. he truly loathes donald trump. obama is a serious person. he doesn't think trump is a serious person. but he's also very good at ridiculing trump. remember from the white house correspondents' dinner, gary busey, trump's big decisions were whether gary busey would be off the apprentice, ridicule is going to be very important. >> can he keep that up without getting entangled with him? >> he will go there.

>> can he float like a butterfly and sting like a bee? >> after later today he's going to do that. and believe in places like philadelphia where they have to drive african-american turnout cleveland in swing states, if trump is making it close, barack obama will be there all day -- -- >> i know the crime stops. i've been there with him. >> michelle obama will be there, too. they will both be out on the trail for hillary clinton in the fall. i truly believe that. i wonder if endorsement doesn't come faster if bernie doesn't get out of the way. i know you guys are of the opinion that bernie nothing to lose and he'll keep on until philadelphia. he does have some things to lose. >> what about the president. does he have to wait bernny? >> i don't think so. >> he may endorse hillary as soon as next week. >> yeah, i agree. >> next week is now. >> we're here. >> this week. >> let d.c. vote -- >> oh, i see you have to go through that -- >> yeah. that all the votes --

>> it's a democratic state. democratic area as well. >> right,ing right. she will win d.c. when all the votes are counted bernie is still saying, still not conceded i could see him coming out -- >> -- always great parallels in the past. nixon almost knocked off kennedy in '60 because eisenhower is one of those things once we knew he was lame duck all the arguments about eisenhower disappeared and people just liked him. >> beloved. >> when he barnstormed places, he used to be able to get a million votes in new york, a half million in lunch time in philly on wednesday. you weren't there. the rally numbers in the days of newspapers were unbelievable. people would show up -- >> torch light parade. >> but the thing obama is in the american grain. muhammad ali is in the american grain. >> that's true. >> essentially donald trump is saying that they're not. >> right. >> he wants to turn back a clock, the clock to a time when they were considered somehow untrustworthy because they were foreigners, and -- >> okay. >> who was here first, the white people or the black people?

i mean people keep forgetting -- >> neither of us. >> native americans. relatively speaking. 250 years of slavery, 150 years of jim crow and 50 years of this and you say you're not part of our nationalistic spirit. thank you. more on the fight in the democratic party still going on. it all comes down to tuesday night, we think. that's tuesday night in california, in fact. this is a special edition of "hardball," the place for politics.

welcome back to "hardball" and a special edition. we are waiting for results in puerto rico where the numbers haven't budged in a long time. looking ahead to tuesday, what can we expect? what might win california?

joining us is david corn and heidi presbola and margie abella. i will start with you, margie. i will let all three of you play with this. if you are bernie, what are the stakes for you? >> polls show the race is narrowing. i haven't seen a poll that shows sanders up. i think that no matter really what happens, the race is going to be unchanged on wednesday. i know that sounds kind of crazy to say when you have such a big state and a big primary. i think ultimately, she's going to have the same advantages she has on monday on wednesday. >> what does it do to bernie subjectively? if he comes in with a big headline -- i think like

newspapers. you said top of the fold, sanders pulls upset in california. can he withdraw after that? >> i don't think -- i think from what you hear from the sanders campaign, they will keep going as long as there are people who are voting and as long as people are excited to hear his message on his key core issues. so i think no matter what happens in california, they're going to continue to do that. certainly, there's less pressure on him to do that. >> does he fight on with more? i think it's full throttle ahead if he wins california. your thinking? >> absolutely if he wins california it's not only full throttle ahead, he feels his hand is strengthened in terms of bargaining on the platform. in terms of actually making a closing argument to super delegates. i agree with margie, probably the polls are suggesting right now that hillary clinton does have a slight advantage with likely voters. she's probably going to pull it

out, in which case the yquestio is not does sanders fight on but what kind of a message does he fight on with? does he continue to attack her or does he pivot to more attacking donald trump, which he has made pretty clear that regardless of how full his endorsement of hillary, he will go hard on donald trump. >> if you stretch his arm back, he will say i want to beat trump. it sounds like a guy, he is going for it, going for the roses. i don't think the guy will quit either way. i think if bernie wins california, he stays in it. >> chris, there's another state tuesday. new jersey, the polls close before california polls. hillary clinton wins as expected, she will go over the magic number, including super delegates. she will be celebrating her presumptive nomineeship, if that's a word, before there are any results in california. go back to your newspaper days. the headline the next day is,

bernie wins california, hillary clinton clinch es nomination. sglt la . >> the last game of the doubleheader is the headline. >> not if you make the playoffs by winning the first game. i think bernie has a really hard question to face. >> are you fighting with me with m metaphors? the night cap gets the headline. if he wins california, that's the headline. you know i'm right. >> we will see wednesday morning. >> we can check the big papers. >> twitter is where it will be. >> we will check the papers. thank you. we are coming back with another hour of the special edition of "hardball" including reaction from the sanders campaign as hillary clinton continues to hold her lead in puerto rico. you are watching "hardball" a place for politics.

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