. and that's going to do it for tonight's edition of "mtp daily." chuck todd will kick off primary coverage beginning at 5:00 p.m. eastern tomorrow. with all due respect to donald trump's judicial commentary. >> you're out of order. >> you're out of order. >> you're out of order. >> no you're out of order. >> you're out of order. >> you're out of order! >> you're out of order! the whole trial is out of order! you're out of order! ♪ >> all rise. this show is now in session.

donald trump is hearing objections from all quarters. the presumptive republican nominee is dealing with more reactions pretty much all negative to his comments about the mexican heritage of u.s. federal judge who is overseeing that class action lawsuit against trump university in california. we're going to go through who has said what lately on this. but first, some breaking news here from our colleagues at bloomberg politics. the first report on a red hot conference call that trump held today with some of his top surrogates during which the republican presumptive nominee had harsh words about his own campaign's media strategy in dealing with this incoming criticism. joining us now to talk more about that conference call and the dynamics within trump world is our colleague from washington, jennifer jacobs. this is a call that trump got on himself. tell us the nature of the call and then tell us the things that trump said on it. >> well, he convened an emergency call to talk to his

surrogates, the people who go out there and speak for them. he wanted to instruct them on some talking points on what he thinks they should be saying. and in this entire phone call, according to the people who told us about it, there was no discussion of back ago way from this or apologizing. it was all about counter punching and figuring out how to attack. so it was trump saying, listen, i need you guys to speak for me. let's go hard at. this we've got a strong case here. i think we can use this, this situation to take it to the next level he was saying he said he thinks this can even help him in the polls. >> so jennifer, just to clair fight ki -- clarify, what people were on the call? >> top level people like scott brown the former senator from massachusetts, jan brewer from arizona as well as people like, you know, there was a former apprentice contestant would was on the call and his pastor mark burns, various people like. that. >> so unusual for the candidate

himself to be briefing surrogates on message. but leaving that aside a moment, tell us some specific things. people that want to read the story in full can go to bloombergpolitics.com. what did he say in terms of fighting back? >> jan brewer interrupted and said, listen, your campaign just sent us a memo last night instructing us not to talk about trump university. anything that is connected to trump organization this memo said you guys are not authorized to talk b and trump fought back and said, wait a second, who sent this memo? i'm going to tear that up and throw that in the waste basket. you're fully authorized to talk about this and fight back hard. so he was telling the surrogates we will overcome. he said i've always won and i will continue to win. that's the way it's going to be. he said, you know, you are the reason why i'm having these calls. and sometime you get information that's not very smart. he said you are getting sometimes stupid information from people that are not very

smart. sow promised to have more of these calls with the surrogates in the future. he was clearly irritated with reporters, that's not necessarily surprising. but he said the people asking these questions, those are the racists. he said i would go at them. sow was just, you know, doubling down, tripling down saying go hard on. this. >> to be clear about a couple things. the first is the last point you raised which is not only is trump saying that we shouldn't -- we slu not avoid talking about this, but we should amp up the rhetoric and try to do some kind of jiu-jitsu move whereby he's telling his surrogates to claim that reporters and others who are criticizing him for this are in fact the racists in this story, correct? >> correct. and he also said i've got a hostile judge. he was criticizing the judge, again, questioning the judge's credibility. and one of the surrogates said, you know what? we should go after the lawyers on this case. and they brought up examples.

so it was, you know, talking points on how to really go harder after people. >> another thing that you -- you mentioned in one of the quotes. i want to amplify it a little bit. when he says this thing about, he says this is a stupid memo sent to them telling them not to talk about it and he says people that aren't so smart, he's referring to the people that work for him when he says people that rrnlt so smart, right? he's attacking his own staff with his surrogates, right? >> right. he was saying i need my surrogates out there defending me and talking for me so disregard this memo that was sent you to just yesterday. sometimes you guys hear some information from people that are not so smart. yes, he is talking about his own aides who instructed the surrogates that they are not authorized to talk about trump university and the lawsuit. >> so put that in the context of the state of the trump campaign right now. trump attacking his own staff for being stupid. there are a lot of questions about whether this campaign is geared up to really be a general lection campaign. how does that mesh with the other reporting on where they

are in professionalizing the trump operation? >> well, we know that they are trying hard to professionalize it. and this phone call was, you know, one case of trump trying to get everyone on the same page, of trying to get everyone, you know, coordinated on a message and instructing people what he once said. people talked about he doesn't really have a rapid response team. he doesn't have people going out there and defending him. but he's essentially a one man person, rapid response team. he was trying to, you know, on his own, usually the nominee is isn't on the phone calls or the candidates are not on the phone calls with the surrogates instructing them what to say. but he was on this one. he said i want to do these again in the future to make sure everyone knows what you're supposed to be out there saying for mechlt he said, listen, i don't have a voice without you. sow was saying really needs them out there helping him on this. >> jennifer, j toust clarify some things before we let you go, how did this -- how did our sources characterize the tone of the call? >> the sources said that it was a little bit chaotic.

people were interrupting each other. it was a conference call. mr. trump was very irritated to hear about this memo telling people they shouldn't be talking about this. so from the description it sounds like it was chaotic, irritated. he was trying to, you know, act as moderator on this call and trying to get everyone going on the same page. it sounded like it was a very interesting phone call. >> beyond what is published in the story on bloombergpolitics.com, there are additional quotes you have that i'd love for you to read to folks from the call from trump. >> sure. there was a lot of discussion about the judge. he was saying he's just not a good judge. he is very fast tookt if it's against me. he was akugz the judge of make something errors in unsealing some documents. and said he made some very bad errors. he talked about there's a website that's dedicated to defending trump on this trump university lawsuit in 98% approval.com. he is urging them to fight back against interviewers who ask about this lawsuit and ask their

media interviewer if they actually read these 19,000 pages of comments, positive feedback about trump university and one surrogate said, listen, grill those reporters. if they haven't read the comments on this website, ask them why. you know, he just was saying we have a much better case -- we have a good case on this stuff. i think we have a much better case on everything. he talked a little bit about going after hillary clinton. that's the next thing we need to do is really step it up and attack hillary clin on the clinton foundation topic. >> all right. jennifer jacobs, great story. again, it's on the website now. jennifer, thank you. john and i are going to talk more about this call as well as the vast right and left wing denunciations trump over those controversial comments he's made about judge jurial. what's it li to be in good nds? like finding new

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blockbuster scoop, the presumptive republican nominee had been besieged with criticism for his race freighted comments about federal judge. after reproach from senior republicans such as mitch mcconnell and senate foreign relations committee bob corker, he saw a fresh wave of krit sichl from his side of the aisle today. they all spoke ought against him in the past 24 hours. we want to highlight the reaction of one republican in particular, someone that knows a thing or two about controversial rhetoric and that is newt gingrich. here is what the former speaker of the house said on fox news sunday. >> this swuven the worst mistakes that trump made. i think it's inexcusable. trump has got to, i think, move to a new level. this is no longer the primaries. he's no longer an interesting contender. he is now the potential leader of the united states.

>> this morning trump reacted to gingrich who said could be one of trump's potential running mates. again, trump showed no signs of backing down. >> as far as newt is concerned, i saw newt. i was surprised at newt. i thought it was inappropriate what he said. >> does anything like that get through to you and make you reform your tactics when someone who has been supporter of yours comes out and says this is huge mistake? >> all i'm trying to do is figure out why i'm treat sod unfairly by a judge. a lot of people agree it with. all i want to do is find out why am i being treated so unfairly? >> we reached out this morning to all 26 members of congress who have endorsed trump to come on this show and defend his nominee on the issue. they didn't respond or said they were not available. so, mark, there is a big topic and question. donald trump, his comments on this defense of this, conference call today, how much damage he is doing to his own cause? >> a ton as well as to the

republican party from his donors to his congressional supporters and to the congressional leadership to conservatives who were on the fence about him. his remarks have been correctly attacked by everyone. they're -- they don't like the politics. they don't like what he said. they feel they're putting nem a bad position. you have editorial boards from local papers writing stories, wanting to know where the local officials stand. this saz newt gingrich said about, the worst thing he's done politically, substantively and based on what he said on this call today, base ond whd on wha said on fox, he didn't do what i thought he would do which is try town ring the bell a little. the damage has been done to a large extent. >> he lit a fire in a house. he stoked the fire in the house. then he poured gasoline all over himself and walked into the house. and now is standing on top of the house trying to get ahold of more gasoline to make the fire bigger. i was at a event this weekend in

nashville, tennessee, with a huge bunch of lawyers. republicans and democrats alike. lawyers one and all. not a political group. some are democrats and some republicans. all horrified, horrified, outraged normal people, professionals in the south, horrified by this display, not just in the notion of it's racist and racially charged context, but just the attack on the independent judiciary. if you are losing your own party leadership, people who are luktantly in many cases came to endorse who you are now feeling forced to criticize you with the strongest terms possible and people like that, the people i was talking to this weekend, all mortified. there is a big -- i mean you can't overstate how big a huge mistake this is and he just making it worse, zwroust day he intenldz to keep doing it. >> the democrats are taking full advantage of it. in this case, as is their right. the reality of what he said is so outrageous for so many people's sensibilities that

unlike when, for instance, he came out for a temporary ban on muslim immigration, a lot of republican sported that. this hasn't been pulled yet. i don't us is snekt is going to have very much support. and one reason of many that people in the republican party are outraged is they say this is about business. this is about donald trump protecting a law, a private lawsuit. you're now the de facto presumptive nominee of the party. you're using the platform to win a legal case that has nothing to do can the one tribut only your personal business and reputation. >> all of the work that we noted that trum health care plan done from the time that he became a de facto nominee to prior to last week in terms of trying to unify the party, he had done, we said, over and over again directly that, surprisingly so much of the resistance to him and at least superficially faded away. all of that work it seems to me has been undone by this. it's exposed the extent to which people were just superficially for him. it made people who are more the superficially for him doubt

their endorsements of him. they're looking at him and saying does this guy actually want to be president? i mean these are the kinds of commentary you're starting to see. does he really want to be president? he is trying to blow this thing up? will he actually get nominated in cleveland? i think all of those things are probably, probably overstated. but that is the nature of the discussion right now. and when you have that kind of discussion going on, it is bad for you. >> i would add to that, there are people who are saying, maybe we can unendorse him. >> right. >> david french of national review said he wasn't going to launch an independent bid. does it not look like there will be anybody with the exception of gaury johnson on ballots that can conservatives can vote for. but this is something that trump did unbidden. he keeps doing it. and the reproach that he's getting will continue and should continue. because it is an affront to what people think about an independent judiciary, what they think about what a person should say about an american.

it's a big problem for him. and the conference call, the tone on the conference call and the attitude on the conference call is not of a guy who is looking for a way to solve the problem by finesse or apology or explanation. and people like paul ryan who said i may criticize him from time to time. the hope was that once he became the presumptive nominee, he would go to the center. this is amongsts the worst things he said as an afrant to people across the country. >> and again that, last point bears repeating. it the case that all of them hoped, no the that trump would become a boring presidential campaign. they knew what they were doing. but they thought that some of the rough edge wobz sanded down. instead, the rough edges are getting rougher at this point. to say that someone by ancestry of any kind is somehow incapable of doing their job is -- >> is being loyal to another country. >> is afrant to basic -- the most basic american values. and for trum top say that people

would point that out are the real racists, nuts. >> and when, of course, he added religion with the muslims. >> yes. >> i mean, it is -- we don't know. let's wait until the polls come out. i guarantee you it is doing damage to his relationship of the upper levels of the republican party in a way that he may not recover from. >> totally nuts. >> all right. donald trump wasn't only asked about the judge on the sunday shows n that interview with jon dickerson on "face the nation," he was presented with statements he made five years ago supporting the u.s. of military american force to attack kadavy in libya despite the claims that he's always been over that intervention. here is a sense wlaf he said about this topic over the years. >> he said i was in favor of libya? i was -- i never discussed that subject. >> kadavy in libya is killing thousands of people. >> you say i supported, i supported qulab? yeah, you supported intervention

in lib yachlt. >> i did? where do you see that? we should go in and stop this gichlt that would be very easy and very quick w he could do it surgically. >> even before intervention, just to clear up that. >> i'm for doing something. i don't have for what you're doing right now. >> we were better off if the politicians took a day off instead of going into war. we should do on a humanitarian basis immediately go into libya, knock this guy out very quickly, very surgically, very infe effectively. you said you were for intervention in libya. >> i didn't mind surgical. do you a surgical shot. you take him out. but i wasn't for what happened. i could have seen surgical where you take out ka gaff kadavy and group. >> we would be so much better off if kadavy were in charge right now. >> that 2011 footage of trump supporting intervention in libya was reported back in february. but no one asked him about it until now. what does the fact that this libya thing is getting attention

currently although overshadowed by the judge controversy. what does that say about the scrutiny trump is facing and will face? >> not surprisingly, he's getting more scrutiny as happens with every person that becomes the presumptive nominee. the scrutiny level goes up. it goes up in a way that most politicians do. they get a different level of xrut nichlt it also is the case, i believe that, across our professional, people have looked back on the now republican nomination fight and concluded that not that somehow there was a -- that press enabled trump and allowed him to become the republican nominee, but they said, you know, we didn't get this quite exactly right. we got to get better at. this we have to figure out how to question better, how to hold him to account with things he said in the past. this thing that dickerson did and others started to do of playing video for him, i think you're going to see that a lot. we're trying to learn lessons. >> you're going to see people from the bush campaign, the rubio campaign, the cruz

campaign, others say oh, why didn't the press do a better job? part of the answer is, yes, the press should have done a better job. but 17 candidates, you have to investigate everybody and do due diligence. part is they didn't have the research operation and the kind of consistency and discipline to go after trump on these things. i think that you're going to see more stuff about hillary clinton. we'll talk about that. >> for sure. >> you'll see more stuff about trump. and as is always the case, always the case, it's how you handle it. much more than the underlying videotape. much more than the underlying interconsistencies. this is how he handles things. deny the truth. >> and that is a problem. a big problem. coming up, bernie sanders' post california primary calculations. will he cash in his chips or go all the way until the convention? we'll try to read his not totally poker face after this quick break. why do so many businesses rely on the us postal service? because when they ship with us,

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bernie sanders and what he does after the announcement tomorrow is the story. today they called for sanders to drop out of the race to post haste. >> senator sanders said he wants to do everything possible to make sure donald trump doesn't become president. that's going to entail supporting democratic nominee, the party in doing it as early as can you and helping to energize and unify the party as early as we can.

that should happen as soon as it's clear that hillary clinton is the nominee of the party and that will happen tomorrow night. >> that was live television. he didn't mean to go that far. that's as far as any clinton staffer i said tomorrow night he should get out. "the new york times" reported that president obama may endorse hillary clinton this week. so where do you think bernie sanders' head is at? he is going to get out? or is he going to fight on? >> i don't note answer to that question. i think it's more that people underestimate the possibility that sanders will within a few days of california and these other states that voting tomorrow drop out. people forget what it was like in 2008 when hillary clinton and a lot of people around hillary clinton including mark penn, her chief strategist said we'll fight on to denver. we're going try to flip the super delegates. she came to new york on the last night of the primary. the crowd chanted saying go on to denver. she woke up the next day and went to washington, d.c. gave a speech. she went to the campaign

headquarters and dropped out. the psychology of the candidate sun predictable. and the moment when it finally comes and look at it cold hard light of day, things can be really different than they've been for months. >> because it's unpredictable and the guy earned the right to do what he has in space. >> of course he has. let's wait and see what happens. let's not force him out. there is a conference coming up of supporters in chicago in a couple weeks. there is still another primary after tomorrow in d.c. there is a lot of issues he cares about. my hunch is that he's going to go with a middle ground. he's going to say let's go to the convention and see what happens. he wants to see what the super delegates do. you know, the number one book on amazon is a book by a former secret service officer about the clintons. i think bernie sanders between the fbi investigation and the book and the moral authority he thinks he has because of his platform, because of the polls where he is better against trump, i think he wants to see what happens. and not just free up his delegates. >> here's where i do not think is going to happen. i don't think bernie sanders will spend a month from now

between now and philadelphia beating her up, trying some aggressive harsh way to flip super delegates. i think he'll keep it alive aina tass i had way or go back to burlington as he's planning tomorrow night and sit with his family and say, you no what he? i lost. >> the big question is i meant to look today on google maps. clinton and obama went to unity new hampshire. i wanted to see if there is a unity in another battleground state. up next, the lessons we can learn from the donald trump and the media landscape. we'll talk about that when we come back. you focus on making great burgers, or building the best houses in town. or becoming the next highly-unlikely dotcom superstar. and us, we'll be right there with you, helping with the questions you need answered to get your brand new business started. we're legalzoom and we've already partnered

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ruden. his piece today rebrands the donald trump campaign as trump productions inc. thank you for being here. rudy, here's my question for you. the basic thesis of the column is trump floods the zone. it's all about volume not about quality, particularly whether he says. he talks, talks, talks. that worked for him. seems like maybe the evidence in the past few days could give the lie to that thesis. please respond. >> i think that was the argument at the top of the column. and then the column twisted around to the bottom to say here comes the general election. will it continue? >> i think i got a little bored half way through. >> come on. >> so you think it's going to change why. is this an example of what you're saying that the difference -- the different environment is going to make it harder to continue with that strategy? >> today was new trumpian content via bloomberg news. i don't know if that's the content he wanted out. there is a lot more scrutiny now. the stakes are higher. someone told me, you know, now he can be a president?

or, you know, this not to some compelling personality? that said, i will cop the -- plead the fifth. i don't know whether this will continue to work because we're talking about him still z that hurt hillary clinton? maybe not whether this is the kind of content you're talking about. so quality may matter a lot more now. >> alex, rarely i have seen someone come out of a losing campaign and learn a big lesson so quickly. two of your former colleagues from the campaign, i think they learned one of the huge lessons which is from the trump campaign which you need to be present. you can't be out of the discussion. my question is, doesn't quality matter, too? trump's content has a the love appeal. it's not just a lochlt it's stuff that immediate yaen at public is generally interested in. >> right. i mean, so you're right. terry sullivan and i all three senior staffers on marco rubio's campaign, we're starting a new firm called firehouse strategies and on the premise that the way people receive information now is really different than it was just four, five years ago. i worked in every presidential campaign for the last decade. this one was totally different

because of how people received information. that means that candidates campaigns, organizations need to deliver information differently. and mostly they need to deliver more information. and you're right, it has to be high quality information. otherwise, people won't share it. but trump, to his credit, produced a ton of content during the campaign. i shared with jim during his reporting of the story, we measured on a daily basis the information clowe coming from the campaigns to our targeted universe. there wasn't a sing dale where he wasn't lapping the field in term of providing information to our targeted universe. >> by a factor of what on the best days? >> on his best day, he would get twice as much as the rev of the field combined. sometimes, you know, sometimes when he was really making news be it after major news he haven't or something, he was, you know, the only one that anyone was hearing from. but i'm not -- on average, he was getting twice as much attention as the rest of the field combined. >> alex, i want to ask you this

question. we were just talking a little while ago about the fact that trump seems to be getting different kind of coverage now than he got during the nomination fight. you know, being called on inconsistencies on the libya issue, for example. do you think that media failed in term of how he covered trump in the context of the nomination contest? >> well, yeah. i mean, obviously the media failed to bet him in a serious way last summer and the same way that they vetted my boss, for instance. "the new york times" last summer, some of his columns -- colleagues there did a big story about marco and how he spent his personal money. we have never seen that reporting on donald trump until recently. i will say in the media's defense, nobody took him seriously last summer. he had 16 or 17 competitors in the republican race. and none of us took him seriously. i don't think voters took him seriously. we treated him as a businessman and celebrity. now, however, the media, his

competitors and voters are starting to look at him as a potential president that has a different environment of him. it's reflected in the coverage and how voters are treating him in the last week or two. >> do you see a equally take theive difference in terms of how the press is covering trump? if you see that difference, what do you think explains the change? >> i do see that difference. obviously, we've had a lot of really tough coverage of him over the last few days. and i'd say it's general election time and it's lessons learned. i think that collectively the news media, my colleagues out there think we should have probably treated him the same way we treated marco rubio or for that matter people complain in the republican side that hillary hasn't been better. she had her share of tougher stories. and there was a time whether we were writing about e-mail servers and we were treating trump more like, you know, celebrity reality kind of candidate. that said, things have been very tough. now the quandary is it looks like a war between trump and the press. that's a whole new problem for i don't know how reporters are

going to handle that because of being drawn into a fight. >> trump has a good sense of poetry. he wanted to comment for your story. what is his view of your thesis? he said he is winning. he denies. that he said he'll take all the good publicity in the world. he doesn't want any bad. therefore, you know, on the veterans donation story last week where he was criticized about how much did he really give them. he said that should be 100% good press. he said he doesn't want controversial stories. i don't know if he'll share the theory of the case. >> alex, let me probe your business model a little bit. following on what i asked you before which is it's all well and good if i'm running for senate in oklahoma and i hire you and i say i want to dominate the media the way trump does. and i'm not that interesting. can you as a consultants get somebody the kind of volume of coverage that trump gets or it is really more based on trump as a one man band than anybody he can hire? >> i think trump is u neeblg in

h -- unique. i think if you want to get your message out, you need to provide a lot of content in hopes of reaching people in part because what people are talking about today is not what they're talking about 48 hours from now. if you have a problem, you need to aggressively tackle the problem. you can't hope it goes away on its own. in the information vacuum, if you don't fill it, opponents and critics well. zl what do you think about what they said about the judge? >> i think there is no place for that in modern political discourse. i think every republican should condemn it. >> should marco rubio withdraw his endorsement of trump over it? >> i'm not going to get between -- i fno longer advice marco rubio. he was critical of trump's statements on. that i hope trump refeud yats the statements. it is bad for his canned da

sichlt it is bad for his party and bad for the country for a major nominee of a party to say things like that. >> all right. alex koenen and jim rootenberg, thank you for joining us. both of you are great. next up, remembering the greatest, muhammed ali. if you're watching us from washington, d.c., you can also listen to us on the radio 99.1 fm. we'll be right back. it'sed lobster's new lobster and shrimp summerfest! with the lobster and shrimp... ...you love in so many new dishes, you're gonna wanna try... ...every last one. like the new coastal lobster & shrimp. ...summer ale bbq sauce. or try the new lobster & shrimp overboard, ...because when a dish can w you like ts, ...overboard's the only way to describe it. but hurry, this ends soon. defianour citracal bones. easily absorbed calcium plus vitamin d.

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there are legends and then there are those in a class by themselves. the heavyweight champion died late friday night at the age of 74. here to talk us to about the greatest of all time this guy is pretty good himself, the esteemed sports journal whoist wrote the obituaries about ali in "the new york times" and a special kmemtive edition of "time" magazine. thank you for joining us. >> my pleasure. >> twint start with the story you start your piece with which is one of great moments in your career looking back at least which is the day you were there when the beatles met muhammed ali. >> i wish i had been more attune to history or could look ahead and have appreciated it more. i just remember that these guys were kind of in the way. and i had to interview this fighter. i had been sat down. i got the assignment to cover the first fight in miami.

in 1964 because the real reporter didn't think it was worth his time. clay was going to get knocked out in the first round. listed was unbeatable. i was told as soon as i get to miami, rent a car, drive back and forth between the arena and the closest hospital so that i would waste no deadline time following clay into intensive care. so that was kind of what was in my mind. i went to the gym where he was working out. he had not arrived yet. and right behind me were these four funny little guys with british accents and messy hair. like around my age. they were wearing matching white cabana jackets. and we were all pushed into a dressing room to wait. what had happened, which i didn't know right away, was they were on their first american visit. they had gone for a photo op and

they took one look at them and said i'm not posing with them sissies. and so they were stuffed back in a limo, i guess the last time you stuffed the beatles anywhere. and they drove to clay's camp for a second photo op. >> whether they finally meet him, what happens? >> the five of us gasp. we had never seen such a beautiful creature in our lives. and he said, come on, beatles, let's make some money. he went into the ring and this on youtube now and as if they had choreographed it. the beatles stood in a row. he tapped the first one. they went down like dominos. and they formed a pyramid. then to try to hit him. and pretty much it was over. >> so they put on a show. the beatles leave and what does ali say to you? he says, who were those little sissies? so i don't feel so bad about not knowing who the beat lgz were

either. >> incredible. >> i want to ask you a question about politics. this is basically a political show. ali was a huge political figure. you think about him joining the nation of islam, chachginging h name and then refusing to good into the arms forces. just in the context of that time, how much of a political earthquake did those series of things cause? >> they were enormously important politically. and socially and religiously. and i think that what gets forgotten so quickly was here is this emotionally stunted, insecure, you know, 22-year-old kid but younger, out of an abusive home, who goes to the nation of islam for some sort of security and father figure. and suddenly, you know, he's caught in the turbulence of one of the most politically charged times in my life and he's

against civil rights. he's turned his back on the main religion of america. he's cast off his slave name before, you know, roots came out and we really knew what that meant. and he is suddenly representing millions of people. and is a polarizing figure. i don't think that he entirely knew what he was talking about at that time. >> how much do you think that it had an infeeffect on -- it was important moment for sports but suddenly you had athletes who saw themselves as needing to or wanting to or being legitimate for them to take these kinds of important stands on important political and social issues. >> very few came even close. later on jim brown, the football player, kareem abdul-jabbar, tommy smyth and john carlos at the '68 olympics. partially in protest to ali

losing his title. >> billie jean king. >> billie jean king, excellent, yes. but not to the extent that he seems to have done. that my feeling is that he became a political symbol because he was -- there was an innocence about him. so it was easy for toerve put their banner, their bumper sticker, their magnet on muhammad ali. he was really in the -- process of changing. i don't believe he fully understood what he was talking about until he was forced to stop boxing and going 3 1/2 years going to college campuses which is the only way he could make any money and he began to figure out where -- he had to set an example.

in 1966, the senate hearing on the war, you know, maxwell taylor calls a senator a traitor because he's not behind him. the same day, ali finds out he's been reclassified 1-a. right? the first thing he said, the moment he heard this from an ap reporter, he said, why me? i'm the heavyweight champion of the world. i pay all these taxes. i buy all these bombs and airplanes and helmets for soldiers. why don't they -- why do they draft poor boys from louisville? at the end of that day, harassed and crazy, he was say because somebody, you know, the 100th person says how do you feel about going to vietnam next week? i got nothing against them. whoa. but, you know, in the arc of that day, he put a white paper

out. i don't think so. >> right. bob, thank you. incredible. incredible story and incredible man. coming up, we'll talk more about donald trump and whether the size of the campaign matters right after this. [ guitar playing ] ugh. heartburn. sorry ma'am. no burning here. try new alka-seltzer heartburn relief gummies. they work fast and don't taste chalky. mmmm. incredible. looks tasty. you don't have heartburn. new alka-seltzer heartburn relief gummies. enjoy the relief.

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so they're pushing back but not saying exactly what they believe s is inaccurate about bloomberg's sizable report. >> yeah. doesn't seem like there is not a lot of -- that push back doesn't seem like there is any particular thing they're pushing back on with any real counter evidence there. it seems more like a generic we don't really like this story push back. it was a generalized you don't know what you're talking about because you don't have access. we don't give you access. that is the problem with the campaign and in one tweet. the campaign doesn't see giving reporters access to what is going on behind the scenes and so in light of that, there is communications and they're

robust. they have two people working on communications. and then the director of some of the responses to the reporters he chooses to respond to. and that is problematic. because they're not getting their message out unless donald trump is tweeting about something. and it's problematic, you guys, as we've been talking about, donald trump doesn't have the ability to get -- to spin things to his advantage the way that the hillary clinton machine does. when donald trump come out with a foreign policy speech or a tweet or controversial statement or says something on the trail or on one of the shows, hillary clinton comes in and says look what donald trump said. here's why it's wrong or here's why it's outrageous. they can do this with all of donald trump's past statements as well. donald trump does not have the ability to counter that with the same full-court press that she does. because they do not have the team in place. the rnc is trying this. they're working with the campaign and they're pushing out

their own rapid response talking points. but the reality is, and i've spoke ton a number of sources, the rnc's priorities and the trump campaign's priorities are very different. so while they may respond pretty quickly to hillary clinton's foreign policy speech, they're not going to respond to the trump university case which was a big story last week, quite controversial. and the story that keeps on going with trump continuing to call out this judge and add manipulately saying that he does not believe kocalling his mexic heritage into question even though he is born nind ind and is a american citizen, he is refusing to acknowledge that is racist even though he's accused by that by a number of people now. >> i was struck by two pieces of data along the way here in this narrative. first, that over the weekend from hillary clinton's thursday attack through the weekend and contrary to donald trump's judge comments, no one has come to his defense. and trump on this call that our

bloom colleagues reported on today sounding just like the clintons do when they're being attacked by the press and the opposition saying where are my people? who is defending me? i never known trum top really feel like he needed people to defend him. this seems to me to be a new phenomenon. i need surrogates. >> i never heard him say this either. it's interesting to see if these surrogates actually come out and do defend him in that way and do come out and say we believe that donald trump is right to call out this judge for his mexican heritage, somehow not being able to be unbiassed towards donald trump. and if they do take it a step further and actually call the reporters who are questioning it racist themselves if, that happens, then donald trump has his surrogate operation that will go out and deliver his message. so far we haven't seen that. and nbc news is trying over and over again to get anybody to come on the record to defend these comments and so far we have run out of luck. >> i'll by an egg nog on the corn tler from that cart for

every surrogate who come out and follows trump's orders. every one. egg nogs all around. >> where is there egg nog? what you are talking about? >> mark is hallucinating. tkaty -- katy tur yushgs awesome. >> they have a pros poeal to turn over dodd frank. we'll tell you about this after this. with probiotics to support the 70% ofour immune system that's found in your digestive tract. new one a day with probiotics. your multi with more. but i've managed.e crohn disease is tough except that managi my symptoms was all i was dog. and when i finally told my doctor, he said humira is for adults like me who have tried other mications

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now an interview with the chairman of the house financial services committee. he unveiled a new proposal to overturn dodd frank today. here is some of what he said when he is asked whether he is talked to donald trump about the overhaul. >> there are a lot of things donald trump has said and done that i don't agree with. we need to promote economic growth. he is interested in doing. that my crystal ball is fuzzy.

you actually see dodd frank replaced and replaced with the financial choice act. >> thanks for watching. we'll see you tomorrow. >> will bernie quit? let's play "hardball." >> good evening. i'm chris matthews in washington. tonight hillary clinton is on the cusp of winning the democratic nomination and president obama is ready to join letter in the fight against trump. after beating bernie sanders in puerto rico, clin dmou needs 19 delegates to reach the magic number which she's expected to. when they report the results early tuesday evening. that is tomorrow. clinton's latest fund-rag