hands pac and not authorized by any candidate or candidates' committee. >> not just for your liberal aunt's facebook page anymore. i've got to tell you, this ad is airing on tv! in a very select market, i will admit, but americans against insecure billionaires with tiny hands pac did scrounge up enough money to apparently start running this in the d.c. market on cable and, you know, i'm not saying that donald trump has baby hands. i do not want to propagate that vicious and well-contested rumor. as far as i can tell, he has very normal, adult human-sized hands and fingers. but -- very gentle. very gentle. that does it for us tonight. we'll see you again on monday. now it's time for "hardball with chris matthews." have a good weekend. conscience of a conservative. let's play "hardball."

good evening. i'm chris matthews in washington. donald trump ends the week down in the polls, outmatched in fund-raisering and coming under intense criticism from a number of republican leaders for comments he has made since the shooting in orlando. speaker paul ryan told my colleague, chuck todd, republicans should vote their conscience, and he called the 2016 matchup a very strange situation. well, still, the republican nominee to be isn't changing his tune. today he tweeted, "people very unhappy with crooked hillary and obama on jobs and safety. biggest trade deficit in many years. more attacks will follow orlando." well, last night, trump stuck by his controversy called to ban muslim immigration. >> we're allowing thousands and thousands of people to come into our country from countries that

are terrorist countries. and what's happening is a percentage of the people coming in, and i've been pretty good at this stuff. i've been a good prognosticator. i've said keep the oil. i've been pretty good at this stuff, okay? >> for the past five days, trump has made tough insinuations against the president, defended a blanket ban on muslims, and suggest that muslim americans know about terrorists in their community but won't or aren't turning them in. >> we're led by a man that either is -- is -- is not tough, not smart, or he's got something else in mind. and the something else in mind, you know, people can't believe it. >> muslims are the ones that see what's going on. the muslims are the ones that have to report them. and if they don't report them, then they have to be consequences to them. >> we are taking in thousands of people into our country. we have no idea where they come from. we have no idea who the hell they are. >> i'm getting thousands of

letters and tweets that i was right about the whole situation. i mean, i've been right about a lot of things, frankly. >> well, trump's talk has alienated many republicans. the former governor of oklahoma, frank keating, told "the new york times" today, frequently, mr. trump's tone is hysterical and there's simply no reason for that. leaders, whether they're governor s oor presidents need make sure they don't create a bloodlust his terrifyya. hallie jackson is recovering the republican campaign and john feehery is a republican strategist. hallie, i want to ask you about trump. he seems to be going back to what worked for him in the beginning. talk about the muslim ban. it's almost like going back to square one. does that mean they don't have a plan for a larger effort to win 65 million votes this november after winning the 13 million in the primaries? >> reporter: so i think he never let square one. he's always had this plan and

worked for him in the primaries. the thinking for trump seems to be, why change it now? the question seems to be, do they have a plan to go after hillary clinton in a more focused way, a way that a number of republican operatives would like them to see. the campaign has a clear way they plan to go after hillary clinton, that they plan to make the turn to the general election. but what you hear again and again, it's donald trump's show. he is the one who ultimately will decide what to do. you are keying him, for example, get more comfortable, i'm told, reading from a teleprompter, figuring out how to make those speeches happen in a way that is comfortable for him, when they are scripted. the rallies, however, like the one here tonight, it's a different story. >> let me try something by you. you're a student of all of this. trump came into this race with a good hunch. he knew the country was upset about all kinds of things, especially trade. he knew the average working family felt they were getting hurt by foreign trade, by china, especially, because everything's coming from china, and we're not sending anything anywhere else in the world. he had a lot of good hunches.

they may be ugly in some cases, but he did make sense politically. but that life experience, he hasn't been having a life experience the last year. his experience the last year is as a candidate. he's living the life experience of a politician, which is isolated, hermetic, it's inside. you don't grasp on to those hunches, those life experiences, which give you a reason for running in the first place. in other words, he came in with a lot of gas in his tank, he hasn't been able to refuel for a year because he's surrounded by us. he's not surrounded by regular people. he's not learning things about life attitudes, about immigration, about trade, about all kinds of things, about the wars we get stuck into. he seemed to have hunches. is he not getting any hunches off the trail, because he's in this hermetically sealed nonreal world of politics? >> reporter: and he's literally actually in a bubble, as well. not literally, of course, but he's in that -- >> that's what i'm talking about. >> you know what i'm saying, even when he comes to these rallies, he's not necessarily

interacting with people the way you would during the primary season. he didn't even get the chance to do it, because he got secret service protection so early. he does shake hands on the rope line, but that's a very different experience from what he's living. but that said, what you see from donald trump is him drawing on the life experiences from prior to his time in politics. it's an interesting. it's a good thought experiment to have. it's a good way to think about it. the idea he is in this bubble for the last year. >> i think this has nothing to do with left/right/middle politics. it's like all those great books about the rise. and then went on television as a commentator and stopped writing anything interesting, because his experience was talking about past experiences. if trump is not living the life of a builder, sitting in a back room, bs'ing with other builders, doing all this stuff, his life experience lately is just talking about donald trump. >> i think he's in an echo chamber. >> yes. >> he had 13 to 14 million people respond positively, but he can't get out of that echo

chamber, so he's sticking to it. and there's one organizing principle about donald trump. and that's donald trump. look at what happened with orlando. literally the first words out of his mouth were, it's about me. everybody's sending me letters. i'm great. >> i predicted more terrorism, therefore there's more terrorism, therefore it's about me. >> i hate to be crass about this horrific tragedy that we've been talking about all week. but here was a chance, an opportunity to demonstrate some degree of leadership that might go beyond his usual bullying and arrogance and say, it's a sad day for america. and here's what i would do to try to prevent this. instead, he attacked hillary and he said i'm great. >> there's one thing here, there's a wrinkle, where he seems to be something a little bit inordinate, which is always a good sign for him. this week donald trump seemed to break from party republican orthodoxy on the gun issue. he tweeted, i will be meeting with the nra, who has endorsed me, habit not allowing people on the terrorist watch list or the no fly list to buy guns.

john fieri, at some point you have to decide on priorities. you triage politically and go, this week, and i think this month, people are going to be talking about orlando, and they're more angry about terrorism than they are about gun rights. generally speaking. and they may be more concerned about terrorism than the usual prejudices about sexuality, in fact. i think that's smart politics. trump seems to be glimmering here to know that the people are more worried about terrorism than they are worried about absolutism on the second amendment. do you think he's showing signs of life there or not? >> i do. let's face it. keeping guns out of the hands of terrorists is very political popular and probably smart for trump to talk about that. if he can cut a deal with the nra, i think that's smart politics for him to do that. the problem is, when he's going into a convention, if he alienates the nra, he will be isolated and that could be very dangerous for him politically. i mean, the other fact is, you're talking about him being in a bubble. his biggest problem is he's isolated. he doesn't have any support amongst any other republicans.

if he gets out there and talks himself, and no support from any kind of an echo chamber whatsoever, no support from the other republican leaders in the country, and that's his fault, because he just kind of ad lib.s all the time. and that can be very tough for any kind of politician. >> anyway, if an interview that will air this sunday on "meet the press," speaker paul ryan said republicans should feel free to vote their conscience when it comes to trump. let's watch. >> do you think it is that members in the house republican conference, follow your conscience? if you don't want to support him, don't do it? >> absolutely. the last thing i would do is to tell anybody to do something that's contrary to their conscience. of course i wouldn't do that. believe me, chuck, i get this is a very strange situation. this is a very unique nominee. but i feel, as a responsibility, institutionally, as speaker of the house, that i would not be leading some chasm in the middle of our party. because that will definitely knock us out of the white house. >> i'm interested in the use of his vocabulary, guys, chasm.

you don't lead a chasm. a chasm is a big ravine or something. up in new england, david, what's he trying to do politically there? >> he's on a tightrope without a net. i mean -- >> i think he's a flagpole sitter. he's up there and he has to -- >> take a step back. this is the highest ranking member of the republican party can't say in good faith, you should support this guy. we should support our nominee. if you don't want to support him, i realize you might think he's crazy or a bigot or an extremist, so i'm okay with that. i don't think in modern american politics have you ever had an occasion where leaders of one's nominee's own party calls him a racist and a bigot. >> usually when he said there's a conscience vote on the hill, it's like the leadership is not going to nail you down and force you to vote with the party. but there's a strong thing for the leader of a portarty to say about a presidential nominee.

what kind of a statement that? >> in many ways, people have to vote their conscience, no matter what. it's not like paul ryan's going to browbeat these people to vote for donald trump. it's not like they're the closest of friends. but there is a thing here where the republican party does have to unify. otherwise, it's going to be a complete disaster. and either they unify with trump or find somebody else at the convention and stick them in there. the problem with the party is, if they don't unify behind trump, it's going to be a bloodbath for republicans all over the place. >> and just to see how bad things are, george w. bush now sees himself as a kingmaker. apparently he was so far -- has so far declined to endorse donald trump, but nbc news has confirmed now that the former president, who got us into the iraq war, is getting involved in several senate races. imagine being so bad off with the voters, you need george w. to come in to help you. "the new york times" first reported the effort as aimed at supporting vulnerable republican senators. quote, in the weeks since mr.

trump emerged as the party's presumptive presidential nominee, mr. bush has headlined several fund-raisers and has plans to do several more. friends say the former president is deeply bothered by mr. trump's campaign message, especially his derogatory remarks about muslims and immigrants. howie, this is so strange. one of the reasons barack obama was elected president was george w. bush. the people thought the iraq war was a disaster. we were led into by ideologues and led in by bad information, personally bad, fed to the american people, especially by dick cheney. and here we have w. back, who is sort of the guy who was -- what would you call him? the doofus of the whole thing. the brains of the whole thing, they said he was dragged in it himself by cheney. this guy is now seen as a lifesaver. let me ask. i'll get to john who knows more about this in a minute. but imagine w. can you see w. out on the campaign trail, or is he only good in the back room with the fat cats? >> i think he's getting out in the back rooms. i'm not sure how effective he'll bon the campaign trail.

he may be with some republicans. look at where he went out at the end of his presidency, his favorablety ratings. that amount of time is truly a political eternity. and how much it illustrates, and in other words, how much has changed since then, that you've got former president bush, helping people like rob portman and kelly ayotte. and look at donald trump's response to this. his message to gop leaders is literally, chris, sit down and be quiet. i will do this alone. he's not moderating his message. >> you're responsible for him, aren't you, hallie? didn't you make this guy who he is today? you're not laughing. >> reporter: donald trump? yeah, no, i don't know how to respond to that. >> you can write this book. you have had to deal with him in close range. we have not. >> reporter: i take notes. >> you are always with this guy. and i think lately, he has ran out of hunch. and that for him is trouble, because i think he is a brilliant stand-up guy in terms

of synapses, they come to him. nothing new has been coming to this guy for many weeks now. it's old stuff. anyway, david corn, thank you. hallie jackson, thank you. go ahead, your thought. quickly. go ahead, hallie. >> reporter: but here's what breaks through. we're talking about this, chris, and i think there is something that breaks through what you're calling that bubble, this is when it reaches a critical mass, like it did after the judge curiel comments, when you people like newt gingrich, people that are his allies that are speaking out, that is what gets through to donald trump. and that's where you saw a shift in his message. he said, i'm not going to talk about it anymore. there is a point that things get through to him, that he geds outside of that echo chamber, but it has to build and build and build. >> yeah, to penetrate. >> there's a guy waving from that line behind you there. hallie jackson, have nice weekend. coming up, nearly one week after the deadliest mass shooting the in u.s. history, that was orlando, and one year after the deadly massacre at a church in charleston, south carolina, a year ago, will lawmakers on capitol hill finally get tough

or get at least interested in gun safety laws. democrats have forced votes, but republicans are still not willing to act. and with trump at record high unfavorability and clinton not far behind, could 2016 be the year an independent third party candidate makes a mark on the presidential election? plus, three things you might not know about the general election campaign. the "hardball" roundtable will be here tonight to tell me something i don't know. finally, the incredible documentary series "o.j.: made in america" is shining a bright light on the simpson murder case. the filmmaker behind the series is with us tonight. and this is "hardball," the place for politics. shoots and burns its way into your day, i hear you. to everyone with this pain that makes ordinary tasks extrrdinarily painful, i hear you. make sure your doctor hears you too! i hear you because i was there when my dad suffered with diabetic nerve pain. if you have diabetes and burning, shooting pain in your feet or hands, don't suffer in silence! step on up anask your doctor about diabetic nerve pain.

tell 'em cedric sent you. well, it looks like the path is clearing for senator marco rubio to run for re-election. today, u.s. congressman david jolley of florida dropped his bid for the senate, opening space for rubio to get in the race. rubio wasn't planning to run for re-election because he ran for president instead, but after being bounced from the white house race after losing florida back in march, rubio has been

reconsidering his political future. we'll be right back. [burke] hot dog.seen it.covered it. we know a thing or two because we've seen a thing or two. ♪ we are farmers. bum-pa-dum, bum-bum-bum-bum ♪

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welcome back to "hardball." the 15-hour filibuster waged by senate democrats prompted republicans to schedule votes on four gun control or gun safety measures this coming monday. meanwhile, the presumptive republican nominee, donald trump, says hillary clinton will abolish the second amendment. >> her plan is to disarm law-abiding americans, polishing the second amendment, and leaving only the bad guys and terrorists with guns. she wants to take away americans' guns and then admit the very people who want to slaughter us. let them come into the country, we don't have guns, let them come in and have all the fun they want. >> senator bob casey of pennsylvania joins us now. senator casey, is this the time we're finally going to get a safety measure on guns, something that protects us from terrorists?

>> chris, i sure hope so. we'll have an opportunity this week to, as you mentioned, vote on four measures, but it will really be two issues for those four measures. one, a background check bill that will finally close all the loopholes on the background check issue. i hope that will be the subject of consensus. i hope republicans will join us in that. and the second will be a rather new approach, which speaks more to the orlando problem, where you had the fbi engaging with this individual, but they didn't have enough evidence that rose to the level that they could use for an arrest. it gives the justice department more authority than they do under law now, to be able to prevent an individual who's a known or suspected terrorist, and that they believe or has a reason to believe that will use a firearm in connection with terrorism. if it meets that two-part test, you can deny them the firearm. i think that's the right thing to do, not only to prevent an

orlando-type circumstance, but others as well. >> let me ask you the usual attitude about pennsylvania, which is pro second amendment rights. at what point does that second amendment right help terrorists? in other words, people that are not even in most cases on this watch list, this terrorist no-fly list aren't even americans. why would a gun owner want to protect the rights -- it's questionable whether they even are rights of someone who's not here as a citizen, who is poised and perceived as a threat to this country. why would you want to protect their rights to buy a gun? i wonder about that. >> it makes no sense. i mean, it's as simple as can be, if you're too dangerous to get on an airplane, you should be too dangerous to have a firearm. and i hope this is the week that we can finally make progress on that issue as well. chris, i think, ultimately, we have to take a series of votes. we should be taking a series of votes. certainly not all this coming

week, but over the next couple of weeks and months, to at least put people on record and show the american people we have a sense of urgency about this problem that leads to 33,000 people being killed every year, and have the same sense of urgency that we did after 9/11, where the country said, we are no longer going to allow a terrorist to get on an airplane and fly a plane into a building and kill thousands of americans. we did that. now, we haven't eliminated all terrorism, but we've taken that problem off the table. we need the same sense of urgency on gun violence, which is killing 33,000 americans and in between these major events that get all the coverage, kids in big cities across the country are being slaughtered every day of the week. >> yeah. well said. thank you so much, senator robert casey, bob casey of pennsylvania. well, today marks the one-year anniversary when a gunman opened fire at an historic black church in charleston, killing nine people. the daughter of one of the victims spoke on capitol hill this week along with senate

members urging action on gun violence prevention. let's watch. >> i struggle to answer why. why my loved ones and so many other people have been killed. along with so many americans, i was baffled at how the shooter was able to get his hands on a gun and how we lived in a country filled with so much hatred. >> wow. president obama delivered the eulogy for reverend clemente pinky. the president broke out and save "amazing grace." here he is. ♪ amazing grace ♪ how sweet the sound ♪ that saved a wretch like me

>> well, he hit the notes, didn't he? representative todd rutherford is a south carolina state legislature and joshua dubois is former spiritual adviser to president obama and head of the white house office of faith-based and neighborhood partnerships. first of all, i've got to start with joshua, because i read your book every day, every morning i start with your book. because it's a great bay to start the day. it gives you a spiritual reading every day. let me ask you about this. there's so much going on, hell is just all over our country right now. it's about race, it's about sexuality, it's about islamic versus islamism, i should say, radical islamism, or it's alluded to, at least, against christianity and against judaism and against gay people. there's so much hatred flying around right now. in addition to the old racial stuff we've grown up with. >> there is, chris.

>> your thoughts? >> there is. we've got both policy problems but we've we also have heart problems right now in this country, my friend. we have become callous. we have forgotten what it's like for our hearts to break for other people who are mourning across the country, from different groups that are not like us. and we've got to remember what it means to empathize, my friend. you know, if we can't wrap our minds around the pain of a mother or a father who lost their son or daughter in a nightclub in orlando or a black family who is still mourning a year later after what happened in charleston, then we're never going to fix this. we've got to learn how to have our hearts break again, and connect with the pain of other people. that's got to be the first thing, and no amount of tinkering around the edges of policy is going to fix this, until we fix our human hearts. >> yeah, that's a good point. representative rutherford, thank you, sir. this whole thing, you know, when that gay club, a nightclub, where a lot of people from different traditional cultures would have a negative attitude

towards a place like that even existing, find themselves sympathizing with other fellow human beings, they think, that's us getti ting hit. there's such a swirling question about what is "us"? what is "they." a black church gets hit, black men get shot by police. this is a very bad time in terms of trying to find the "us." your thoughts, sir? >> it is a bad time and it seems to continue to get worse. i can tell you in south carolina and around the world as we watch the charleston massacre last year, most people looked at that situation and said, where was god that these nine people -- 12 people, actually -- sat in a church and prayed with this young man and then he opened fire on them and slaughtered them. and they asked, where was god? but it almost seemed like he was a martyr. that god sent him here to do more. and in doing more, south carolina took down the confederate flag, which for many years, all of my life, acted as this death star, this gravity

field drawing crazies and bigots to the statehouse to protest and saw their confederate flags. that is now gone in south carolina. we have made steps here. we have many more to go. but around the world, we have got to figure out why people are so mad and why they want to take so many lives. >> it seems like we're only getting cured by fire? you know what i mean? let me get hit, and we get a terrorist. we're not even sure what kind of a hybrid motive there is behind this fellow. you know, how much hybridism can we handle sometimes? is it his psychological condition? was he, you know, of a certain sexuality he didn't like or didn't like other people with it? or if it had something to do with islam or a little bit to do with him kbm people who were white killing black, that's unfortunately something we're not shocked by. we know it happens. it's been in our past, and we keep thinking, only by burning it do we think, wait a minute, does it take this, as the

representati representative said, to get the flag down. does it take this for people to show sympathy to gay people? you know what i mean. >> i would hope not. here's the thing, chris. there are a lot of good, decent people in this country. the problem is, they happen to be the quietest people out there. there are a lot of folks who operate with civility and they love their neighbor. but those aren't the ones we see on twitter and those aren't the ones we see in our political debates. we need an active, aggressive civility. we need people of goodwill to have moral courage and speak out against these divisive voices, wherever they see them. whether they see them online or in their community. somebody knew dylan roof before he went into mother emanuel. someone could have pulled that kid to the side and confronted him about his white supremacist ideology, but they didn't do it. we need people who are willing to take that moral step, whether it's with a possible terrorist in florida or a possible terrorist in south carolina. when you see racism, when you see homophobia, good people have got to start speaking out, from capitol hill to communities around the country. >> yeah, we've awe're all god's

children. >> that's right. >> thank you for joining us. joshua, thank you for the book. every morning. >> thank you, chris. >> anyway, trump's at war with his party. bernie's not conceding or endorsing hillary. could 2016 be ripe for a third party presidential campaign? we've had them before. they've been disruptive, but one may well be on its way. the "hardball" roundtable is coming here next. and this is "hardball," the place for politics. this is humira. this is humira helping to relieve my pain and protect my joints from further damage. this is humira helping me go further. humira works for many adults. it targets and helps to block a specific source of inflammation that contributes to ra sptoms. doctors have been prescribing humira for over 13 years. humira can lower your ability to fht infections, including tuberculosis. serious, sometimes fatal infections and cancers, including lymphoma, have happened, as have blood,

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i'm milissa rehberger. here's what's happening. donald trump held a rally at the woodlands marriott outside of houston. it was his second campaign rally of the week in texas. there were a few protesters outside, holding signs as people waited to enter. one even took to the skies to display a barn that read "big tex says go home little donny." it was a vastly different scene in san antonio. hundreds of protesters and supporters lined the streets as he headed to a private

fund-raising event. back to "hardball." welcome back to "hardball." at the tail end of another topsy-turvy week for donald trump, many republicans have made no secret of their quest for someone, anyone different to vote for, but is that someone libertarian candidate gary johnson. there he is, tin a hypothetical matchup, johnson is getting 9% of support from the public. 9%. here are the two numbers that really matter. 15 and 50. johnson needs to get 50% of public support in order to participate in the fall debates and 50 is the number of state ballots where his name will have to appear. with this affected concern searching for a trump conservative, the libertarian party has a built-in advantage. he told "usa today" that, quote, i understand that any third name because of the disconduct or the polarization of clinton and rump, any third name would be registering. but anybody's not on the ballot in all 50 states. johnson is a former two-term republican governor of mexico, and in the 2012 presidential election, he pulled in more than

1 million votes or 0.99% of the popular vote. this year, he enlisted the help of former republican governor, massachusetts, bill weld, who he selected as his vp nominee. joining me now for tonight's roundtable, ken fogle, chief investigative reporter for politico. jay newton small with "time" magazine, and paul singer, washington correspondent for "usa today." a great group to talk about. let's talk about the weight of this. what is the significance of gary johnson in this election to the ultimate outcome in the electoral college? >> he has an advantage in a race where you have two candidates that are deeply unpopular and have very high negatives, there are going to be people who are going to be looking for a third option, regardless of who that person is. that said, i don't think for a lot of these republicans, for who donald trump is not an option, that gary johnson is necessarily one they're going to look to favorably. he has neither the temperament, which is the thing all the republicans say is the problem

with donald trump or the ideological consistency with the republican party as which they see donald trump as diverging. >> he said he's not going to use weed for seven weeks. i think that's an odd thing for a presidential candidate. not that i'm an ultimate enemy of that drug. but he said, i've been off booze and now i'm going to quit weed. sounds like a minimal thing to say. he's going to be the commander in chief of u.s. forces around the world and promises not to be high. i just think that was strange. >> i went to his presidential announcement when he ran for president in 2011, was on the steps of the capitol in concord, new hampshire, and he did it at 4:20 on 4/20, because that's the call sign for marijuana possession for police officers across the nation. >> what do you mean the call sign for -- >> so if you get called up on a 420 as a police officer, that means you're arresting somebody for possession of marijuana. so -- >> so he's into the culture. >> no, and it is a central part

of his base. that libertarians believe there should not be drug regulation in the united states. that we should be all adults about it. this is what makes him so appealing to young voters. millennials who don't love hillary clinton, don't love donald trump, they might actually turn out to vote for gary johnson, because of things like this. they love the idea of 420 and smoking pot. >> he would be out doing old bernie sanders on the let's go european number, too. that sounds more european than us. >> you expect the libertarians to draw from the republicans. but some of gary johnson's positions are going to be an anathema to the republicans. he's very open on gay marriage, he's opposed to deporting immigrants. and the fact of the matter is -- >> but mainly, we can all agree, the main off-ramp, this is for republicans. they don't want to vote for trump, because they don't think he's even enough. >> but all that really matters, of course, is can he swing a state? one or two states might be enough. does he get five percentage points in new mexico, where he's from? does he get five -- >> in the end, policewomanberg was talking about running, i kept thinking, what states does

he affect? which is not a popular vote. it comes down to, which states can you turn? like the most innagamous example was ralph nader. it gave it to bush, because of people on the center left or left, probably left who voted for ralph nader, votes that would have gone to al gore. >> let's take the scenario and look at states where gary johnson could have appeal that could be swing states. >> florida. >> new mexico, maybe. arizona, maybe. colorado, certainly. where marijuana is a big deal. so those are like real possibilities. that said, you look at the polls. 9%. that's not going to do it. he needs to get on the debate stage and crack 50 -- >> what are his chances of getting up on that debate stage? >> i don't imagine he's got a chance, because i think there will be other people entering this race. there are other people -- >> who's the fourth party candidate, probably? >> bill stein on the left. >> the green party. >> that's correct.

>> but there's also still a never-trump movement that's trying to get on the ballot to save a space for some white horse candidate who they think is going to ride in. i'm not telling you who it is, because i don't know, neither they do -- >> we don't have a poor loser nationally. you can have lost the republican fight and still run in the general. as a fourth party candidate. anyway, the roundtable is sticking with us. up next, these people will tell me something i don't know. they're already doing that. you're watching "hardball," the place for politics. it's a big one. too bad. we are double booked: diarrhea and abdominal pain. why don't you start without me? oh. yeah. if you're living with frequent, unpredictable diarrhea and abdominal pain, you may have irritable bowel syndrome with diarrhea, or ibs-d. a condition that can be really frustrating. talk to your doctor about viberzi, a different way to treat ibs-d. viberzi is a prescription medication you take every day that helps proactively manage both diarrhea and abdominal pain at the same time. so you stay ahead of your symptoms. viberzi can cause new or worsening abdominal pain.

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we're back this friday night with the "hardball" roundtable. ken, tell me something i don't know. >> koch brothers have come out -- >> oh, it's friday night. >> said that donald trump is an an anathema to their values of fiscal strength, fiscal conservatism, and they're not going to support him. however, my sources told me a top koch operative met with trump, cory lewandowski, who met with the trump network to have a conversation about issues. that said, it was a short

conversation, it may have just been perfunctory. nonetheless, it's another example that shows that donald trump, if he could just sort of give these republicans, or these conservatives, so -- >> but only one are lower taxes and less regulation on gas and oil. it's all self-interest for the koch brothers. >> well, i don't know necessarily about that. >> one of the grander ideals of the koch brothers. >> you know, the criminal justice reform. they have, in fact, funded drug reform efforts. it's a traditional sort of libertarian thing. >> so they're good guys? >> many are saying -- i'm not saying they're good guys or bad guys, but that their interests don't necessarily -- >> how about sheldon adelson? >> sheldon adelson to the best of my knowledge, has not backed donald trump. but donald trump is going out to nevada. >> that's embarrassing for everybody. >> mine has to do with the charleston anniversary. i spent two months in charleston, reporting, writing our cover story on it. and i want to say that the two survivors, holly shepard and phylicia sanders, as todd rutherford was saying earlier on the show, they want to do something good with their lives

after this. >> they were praying in the church at the time? >> they were, they were there at bible study. >> holly says that god saved her because she's going to save dulin roof's soul. she wants to help bring him back to god. and phylicia, who lost her son and aunt in the shootin ining s attending a bible study at white church every wednesday and has for the last nine months because she wants to mend the rift between the races and do exactly the opposite of what the shooter intended. they're doing really amazing things a year later. >> the congressional prayer caucus has lost its profit. the nonprofit organization that runs out of the capitol building with taxpayer dollars, randy forbes, the congressman from virginia who lost a primary, we'll need somebody else to run the congressional prayer caucus. >> yeah. you say that sarcastically. >> i don't. >> yes, you do. >> not in the least. >> jane newton small, paul singer. i have mixed views on all that stuff. coming up, it's an american

saga about sports, american race, of course, violence and crime. the filmmaker behind the incredible documentary series "o.j.: made in america" is joining me next. and this is "hardball," the place for politics. (avo) after 50 years of designing cars for crash survival, subaru has developed our most revolutionary feature yet. a car that can see trouble and stop itself to avoid it. when the insurance institute for highway safety tested front crash prevention nobody beat subaru models with eyesight. not toyota. not ford or any other brand. subaru eyesight. an extra set of eyes, every time you drive. try duo fusion!ing antacids? new, two in one heartburn relief. the antacid goes to work in seconds... and the acid reducer lasts up to 12 hours in one chewable tablet. try new duo fusion. from the makers of zantac.

donald trump can finally start getting ready for the republican convention. that's because lebron james and the cleveland cavaliers played their last game of the year last night at quicken loans arena, where the republican convention will take place. the cavs won forcing a game

seven in the nba finals, and will head to oakland sunday, for the deciding matchup against the defending champion, golden state warriors. and that means trump and the rnc can start getting the arena all ready for the republican convention, which begins july 18th. and we'll be right back. ns ns its way into your day, i hear you. to everyone with this pain that makes ordinary tasks extraordinarily painful, i hear you. make sure your doctor hears you too! i hear you because i was there when my dad suffered with diabetic nerve pain. if you have diabetes and burning, shooting pain in your feet or hands, don't suffer in silence! step on up and ask your doctor about diabetic nerve pain. tell 'em cedric sent you.

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o.j. went to usc in 1967. so he's plucked out of the black community, out of black consciousness, and he's submerged in an all-white university. and i say this and i don't say it facetiously, but, he is seduced by white society. >> wow. we're back. that was a scene from the new espn documentary series on o.j. simpson entitled "o.j.: made in america." it's an in-depth picture of this

country deals with race and justice. as o.j.'s quick rise to fame allowed him to transcend cultural boundaries. even as the fight for civil rights was well underway. the ultimate irony of the story, as we all know, as depicted in the film, while simpson wanted little to do with the african-american community during his rise, his eventual acquittal in 1995 hinged on his racial identity. here's a clip that shows how simpson's defense team built sympathy for him in a scene that takes place just before the jury was shown the interior of simpson's mansion. let's take a look. >> when you would walk up the grand staircase, there was a large wall with pictures of the family, pictures of friends, pictures of o.j.'s career. the problem was, this

overwhelming majority of pictures were of caucasian friends and colleagues of his. we had an african-american jury and we wanted to make sure that the home setting would reflect the themes that we wanted to reflect. >> we took all of his white friends down, put all of his black people up, pictures he probably had never seen before. because that's what we were told the jury would identify with. >> we made him blacker. there was a norman rockwell lithograph that we took from johnny's office and we put that picture at the very top of the stairs. >> unbelievable. well, in episode four of the

five-part series premieres tonight. i'm joined by the director of this film. ezra edelman. thank you so much for this. this manipulation of the jury reminds me of what happened in the old jimmy hoffa case, when they brought joe lewis in to shake hands with him. everybody knew, we thought the life of o.j. simpson, we thought, we all figured it all out. we got into that courtroom and didn't know anything was going to happen. i was covering it, that whole year. i covered it every night for two hours. and when that jury came back, i thought they would come back fast. and i said, conviction, for sure. i was blown away, as so many people were. tell us about how you went into this and what you were able to do here, to each us, what we should have learned what had happened? >> what's interesting about everything you're saying, thus far, in terms of the irony of the case, it seems to have been forgotten, as far as what we're really dealing with as far as who o.j. was, as a man before that trial in 1994, i think we in the last 20 years, especially, have, you know, as a culture, dismissed him as a

monster. and i think one of the goals of this story is to show him in all his human glory and his celebrity. and have you be seduced by him once again to understand why people were so shocked in 1994, when we heard that he was accused of these murders. but also, when you take, you know, a chance to look at everything that was out there, even at the time, to realize why we shouldn't have been shocked. because all these things were right in front of us the whole time and people ignored it. whether it's his history of abuse with nicole, his friends around him, the lapd. and these are things that still to this day get overlooked. on the other hand, for me, this was really a chance to delve into the history of a city, of a police department, of a community that moved black community, the migration to l.a., looking for a better life, and a arriving in a city where they realize that conditions were not equal, as they hoped $28 it would be. that was one of the things i

got. that's what i was interested in. >> we all know, even white people know, i think we've begun to learn how black people are treated by police, in some cases, not always, but some cases. and what we found out in the case thanks to covering it every night is that o.j. was a favorite of the l.a. police. he wasn't treated like an african-american guy, he was treated like a celebrity. they would go over and hang around his swimming pool and suck up to him. and in the course of the trial, he was made a victim of the los angeles police, like other african-americans. but he wasn't treated like other african-americans. he was treated like a big shot. someone they wanted to suck up to. treated like a big guy. >> in many ways, o.j. saw it from the get-go, from his time as usc, if you want to say he wanted to transcend his race, distance himself from his race, what have you, but what he wanted to be more than anything else from the time he was a kid was famous. and he achieved that. and once he gained that level of fame, he did exist in rarefied air. and that meant he got special

treatment. and you know -- so, that's just a fact. >> let me ask you about something that maybe you can't even get to as a filmmaker. and i love the way you're doing this on so many levels like "citizen kane," you're looking at it from so many prisons. by the way, i think it may be on that level. let me ask you about him. you hear about people that commit a crime once in their life, a horrible crime, and never do it again and never would do it again. if he did do it, what drove him to do this butchering of his wife and that guy, and goldman. this horrific -- he never did this to anybody else in his life. he never did anything like it to anybody else? what happened? do we know? >> i mean, that's the million-dollar question. and i don't know if i'm the person in this forum to you ever a an explanation. i really think if you watch the first three hours of this film, there's three hours of the film before we even get to the murders in 1994. and what we're trying to do with that is to really show an evolution of a character, of what happens when you go through, you know, the world and you have that many gifts.

you know, a gift for running the football. he's that charming, he's that talented. he's that beautiful. and he seduced people to the point where once you go through the world like that and you are given everything that you want, at every minute, of every day, i think what you see, there's a sense of entitlement that set in, a need for control that set in. even if you want to explain the -- if you try to parse the relationship of him and nicole, you know, he met nicole when she was 18 years old, just out of high school. >> and he said, she's mine. i own her. i own her. >> more or less. but i really don't want to offer any psychological evaluations beyond what we try to do in the film. >> where was arnold palmer? for years we watched him in those hertz commercials, they were like best buddis. >> o.j. was best buddies with everybody. >> but where was arnold palmer in the courtroom? he never showed up as a character witness. never. never even talked to. >> but you're asking about arnold palmer, you can ask about

100 or 200 people that oracle was chummy with over the years. be it in the broadcast booth or commercial sets. there are plenty of people in theory that would have been there to testify for him. having said that, you find a lot of people like arnold palmer, they weren't exactly going to show up in the middle of the trial of the century to testify for o.j.. >> i thought he was funny in "naked gun 2 1/2." and then there was something bizarre going on with him. he's not a great actor or something. you always see this in retrospect, but something's bugging this guy. he wasn't quite there. people are talking about this at "citizen kane" levels. that's something. >> thanks for having me. >> ezra edelman. be sure to catch episodes 4 and 5 tonight and tomorrow on espn. "hardball" back after this. lcer, the possibility of a flare was almost always on my mind. thinking about what to avoid, where to go... and how to deal with my uc. to me, that was normal. until i talked to my doctor.

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"all in with chris hayes" starts right now. tonight on "all in." >> it's divided and i'm not going to tell somebody to go against their conscience. >> new life for the republican rebellion against their leader donald trump. >> and now it's time for somebody else. >> tonight trump rallies in houston. my exclusive interview with the rnc delegate leading the new anybody but trump resistance. plus what we know about elizabeth warren's surprise visit to clinton head quarrels. >> this is fabulous! then, the latest from orlando. and the immigrant family risking it all to mourn their loved one. move over, the bar for insane donald trump ads haju