. this sunday, brexit. trump and clinton. the brits are getting out and immigration was the main cause. what might it mean for the u.s. presidential election this november? >> great similarities between what happened here and my campaign. people want to take their country back. >> the consequences for britain, europe, and the united states. plus, one by one, prominent republicans are abandoning trump. is it still possible the dump trump movement could succeed? his campaign chairman paul manafort is with me this morning. also, our brand-new nbc news/"wall street journal" poll on the state of the race. >> and the veep steaks. who's on trump's short list for vice presidents and what about clinton's? i'll talk to the senator everyone assumes is at the very top of the clinton list, tim

kaine of virginia. >> are you qualified to be commander in chief? >> joining me for insight and analysis are doris kearns goodwin. helene cooper of the "new york times," chris cillizza of the washington post, and kimberley strassel of the "wall street journal." welcome to sunday. it's "meet the press." good sunday morning. when it became clear that the brexit vote would succeed, that the united kingdom would get out of the eu, one of the leaders of the leave movement spoke of the fight against big banks, against big parties, against big corporations, against elites, about belief in nation, and always, there was opposition to immigration. does this sound familiar? echoes of the brexit movement can be heard here in this presidential race, and both the trump and clinton campaigns truly believe that the leave vote will eventually be good for their own politics.

we shall see, of course. this morning, we have brand-new nbc news/"wall street journal" poll numbers to release. this shows hillary clinton's lead over donald trump is five points now. that is up two from a month ago when she led 46/43, but note, her number didn't change. it's trump's number that actually went down. the poll, of course, was taken before british voters turned the world upside down. leading people on both sides of the atlantic to ask, what now? >> i love to see people take their country back. >> donald trump promoting his new luxury golf course in scotland. >> inside the lighthouse right now is incredible suites. >> and declaring victory after the brexit vote, for both his campaign and his business. >> when the pound goes down, more people are coming to turnberry, frankly. >> hillary clinton also tried to turn britain's vote to her advantage. saying in a statement, this time of uncertainty only underscores the need for calm, steady, experienced leadership in the

white house. >> the backdrop for britain's exit from the 28-nation european union, a populist backlash, an angry working class channeling its distrust in government, feeling left behind by globalization and searching for a scapegoat. >> there's also been a fair amount of immigration from the eu. and i think that coupled with the refugee crisis really afforded the leave campaign a very powerful narrative. >> the leave campaign preyed on anxieties about increased competition for resources and jobs.fought against the multinationals, the big mergeern banks, against big politics. >> and it stoked immigration fears. one campaign poster even using pictures of syrian refugees crossing over into slovenia. >> open up the door, unconditionally, without security check anybody. >> the words have a familiar echo. >> people want to see borders.

they don't necessarily want people pouring into their country. that they don't know who they are and where they come from. >> so, could a uk style retrenchment happen here? at a focus group this week in pittsburgh, working-class voters found reasons to like trump. >> we have been lied to for so long, you know, somebody doesn't want muslims per se that are terrorists in the country, then i'm glad he is saying it, because i don't want them in there either. >> democrats believe what happened in britain won't happen here. just remember, there's a lot more immigrants, people of color, et cetera, in the u.s. >> the vast majority of the american people do not agree with donald trump's xenophobia. look, we have gone through these periods before, but we always come out the other side. >> and joining me now is david miliband. the former british foreign secretary and he currently is president and ceo of the international rescue committee which does work on behalf of refugees. in fact, the last time you were on the show, we were talking about the refugee crisis.

i want to talk about that later in this interview, but let me begin with obviously the brexit. why should americans care about what happened in the uk last week? >> i think there are two reasons why this matters. first of all, obviously, the economic links between the u.s. and the uk are significant because foreign investors and very significant partnership. but the second and more important reason probably is that for the last 70 years, the uk and u.s. have been real partners in building international stability and security. and the great danger now after this brexit vote is that while the friendship will remain between the uk and the u.s., the partnership doesn't have the same kind of influence or drive, and that's what wories many of us. >> is there any upside for the uk in leaving the eu in your opinion? you were an advocate of staying. do you see any upside of leaving? >> from my point of view, the economics short term and medium term are very dangerous. this was branded project fear by

the leave campaign. but actually, it was project fact that investment in the uk is significantly driven by our access to the european single market. i think secondly, there's obviously a major danger for the integrity of the united kingdom, the scottish devolved parliament has signaled they want a further referendum on scotland's place in the eu, and when putin is cheering, you know you have a problem in the international system. any division in europe, especially at a time of major international challenge, is obviously a real danger. >> you don't see any upside? there is no one upside at all about this in your opinion? >> all of us who are patriotic brits will want the new government when it comes in. obviously, the prime minister has resigned. we will want the new government to negotiate as well as possible to negotiate the best possible deal. but the current british foreign secretary has said over the last couple days that the leave campaign we're arguing both for

access to the european single market and for massive reductions in migration within the european union, you can't have both. i think he's right to say that. so that's why while we're patriotic and we want the new government to negotiate the best deal, we have deep fears about what this means. >> there's been some calls for parliament to ignore -- this is not a binding referendum yet. you could argue it doesn't ever have to be binding. obviously, that would be -- could be politically risky for parliament to do that, but do you advocate that? >> the people have spoken, so i think it's very hard to go down that line. i think that for americans, it's worth understanding that this referendum was really an up or down vote on the european institutions which are at best unloved and undervalued, and in some ways, derided. there's been 20 years of very poisonous attacks on the european union. the current issue was immigration from other european countries into the uk. and so in an up or down vote on an institution that is unloved, in a way, it's not surprising

you would get a down vote. the trouble is you have to live with the consequences. i always say to people, populism is popular until it gets elected and then it has to make decisions and that's when the trouble starts. >> the last time you were on the show, we were talking about the syrian migrant crisis. you were advocating for america to do more, to take more of these refugees in. obviously, the pictures of migrants flooding into parts of europe were used in the leave successfully, it appears, in the leave campaign. is there a direct line between instability in syria and the brexit, in your view? >> i think that the failure of the european union to construct an adequate response to the european -- to the middle eastern refugee crisis alongside the continuing tavails of the euro meant that there was a really difficult backdrop. the european institutions were seen to be struggling to master the challenges that were being presented to them. that presented a very difficult backdrop.

as i said earlier, the major immigration issue was about pols and bulgarians coming to the uk, contributor to the unemployment rate. it's lower than among the unemployment rate of brits which is 5% on the american level. but the backdrop of the refugee crisis colored this situation. obviously, for the kroous, you're in a very different situation because the blessings of geography means you can pick and choose which refugees you want, unlike in europe where over three quarters of a million people have arrived across the aegean sea in smuggled rafts and boats. >> let me ask you this. there is already now a petition, over 3 million have signed it, for a revote, for a new referendum. this passed only 52%/48%. we have seen the stories about the number one googled question among brits is what is the eu, post-brexit vote, which is obviously a little alarming probably for you and some others. would you support a new

referendum? >> i think it's premature to be talking about that at this stage. it is terrifying that people have voted to leave an institution and there are suffering buyer's remorse within 48 hours. one has to respect the process and the result, however misguided the way in which it was launched. i think the challenge now is for britain to show that the common sense, the practicality, the sense of purpose that has traditionally been associated with us is continued and carried through. >> did president obama make a mistake by getting involved in the campaign? >> i don't think so. i think he did his responsibility really. for the leader of the western world to come and say, look, you're an important partner of ours. the friendship is always there, but the partnership is magnified and multiplied by your membership with the european union, i think he spoke the truth. and my sense is that while in the end, his voice was drowned out by the clamor around immigration in the last week or two of the campaign, i don't

think the would be right to blame him for coming, because i think that he did the responsible thing. >> and very quickly, politics is in turmoil in the uk right now. both major political parties in upheaval. nobody knows frankly who the heck is in charge. let me ask you this. are you open to being drafted back as a party leader? going back into parliament and leading the labour party? >> that's very flattering of you, but our system doesn't work like that, and i'm leaving it to my parliamentary colleagues. >> you have no interest? >> big decisions on the labour side on how to do this. obviously, there's a conservative leadership election without any declared candidates yet. i think we'll have to leave it to those who are elected representatives. >> david miliband, thanks for coming on the show, sharing your perspective. well, let's get to had panel, helene cooper for the "new york times," kimberley strassel, and author of the new book "the intimidation game." we're going to let her speak

freely on it here. historian and author doris kearns goodwin. if we were plugging books for you, we would be here all hour. and chris cillizza of the "washington post." you're the historian. put this in perspective for us. >> i think cameron made a foustian bargain when he decided he needed the far right vote to win the election. he won it big anyway and promised to bring up this referendum. now he's lost his prime ministership, his legacy. britain may fall apart and not become the great britain. churchill must be dying in his grave right now. he did it to himself. the leaders of both parties were not able to reach the people, which shows that something is wrong with the leadership. maybe in the countries in general. they didn't argue passionately enough. they didn't emotionally connect to the people who felt that something was wrong in their mired unemployment. when you have that inability to see other people's point of view, when you have lack of empathy, lack of sides seeing each other, something goes wrong in a country. i think it's a pretty scary

phenomena. >> helene, the administration's response, the obama administration, has been quite muted. they don't know thou to react. i know john kerry is headed to brussels, i think, tomorrow. what does america do now? >> i think they were shocked, and so you saw that on friday in president obama's remarks afterwards. you heard a lot -- i mean, the tweets and press releases started coming in slowly on friday morning. and basically, all that the administration said is britain is going to be continuing to be our number one ally. and the european union will be our ally as well, and the relationship, the historic relationship will continue. but nobody really expected that this vote was going to end up with the leave camp. so you know, you hear this phrase of uncharted territory, and i think you really are seeing that. >> but you have to ask if the president didn't overplay his hand here. i heard miliband say he did his duty. in fact, if you look at what

happened in england, this started out as a kind of liberty freedom thing. by the end, it had become something very different. it was the public rebuking a political class that told them, no, you cannot leave. you cannot do this. look at the numbers. i think there was only about a quarter of conservative party numbers who supported leaving. only about a tenth of the labour party. this was the entire establishment coming together saying you can't go, and foreign leaders saying you can't go. they said, oh, really. watch us. >> that just struck me about doris, i thought, you're describing america. >> what's fascinating is you see not only the conservative prime minister step down, now the labour leader is in trouble. >> both parties are in turmoil. >> you have a tendency to assume, one party up, other party down. but this is a both parties down, which in truth, we have seen. we have the two least popular presidential nominees in modern history, right? large numbers of people don't want to vote for either of these

people. and there is -- to kimberly's point, an antielite, anti-party structure that is the one weird bipartisan agreement we have in this country. people don't like the people who represent them. >> and yet our democracy is a republic that depends on leadership. we weren't builts a direct democracy. the founders wanted a filter between the people's general feelings and some people who supposedly have wisdom to shape choices for us. we don't believe in those people anymore. that's a real problem for our republic right now. >> can i endorse this. i was struck by this, trump is in scotland, and they ask him about the brexit vote. he says, well, cameron has to go because he didn't channel the will of the public right. and boris johnson got it right, which is a fascinating conception of what leadership and politicians -- >> what is the definition of leadership, right. >> i would caution about drawing too many parallels between what happened in britain and what is going on in the united states because these are at the end of the day at similar as we are to the brits, more similar to the

brits than we are to anybody else in europe, these are two fundamentally different electorates and two fundamentally different countries. and the united states looks a lot more like london than it does like little england or anywhere else that voted to leave. >> in fact, london already felt itself as a multiculture place as a future, this is our life, and that's what we feel in our country as a whole. >> even if you listen to a lot of leaders in favor of brexit, those who were actively campaigning for it. they weren't doing so in an isolationist way. they want britain to again have the freedom to build their own trade deals. i think that is different than what you have heard donald trump talking about in terms of his own idea, making america great again. >> both campaigns think this helps them. are they right? very quickly. >> i think there is an aspect where trump is going to try to take the issues that were important in england and transfer them back here and say the same thing is happening. >> clinton, though, has to learn a lesson here.

>> absolutely, which is -- if she hasn't yet, i would be somewhat surprised. 16 people learned that lesson in the republican primary. the rules that dictated what people wanted in their presidential nominees would have made jeb bush the republican nominee. we look at the opposite of jeb bush, it's donald trump. i would be stunned if they haven't, but they should. distrust of beliefs, distrust of institutions. the one thing she can't get away from is 1991 until today, she's been at the forefront of the leadership. and she is the status quo. >> all right. we'll pause it there. as we have seen donald trump celebrated the brexit vote as good for the uk, good for the u.s., and good for him at the same time. though one by one, prominent republicans continue to abandon the trump ship. when we come back, we'll talk to trump's campaign chairman paul manafort and ask about brexit and all sorts of issues there. >> later, the veep steaks, everybody has a theory on the

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. welcome back. time for a little pop news quiz. what do these three people. brent scowcroft, former treasurely secretary hank paulson and columnist george will have in common. they're all republicans and they all have rejected donald trump this week. scrow croft and paulson endorsed

hillary clinton, and will says he's no longer a republican and is advocating for trump to lose. it's a reminder while trump is the presumptive republican nominee, he is presumptive because he's not yet the nominee. there is still strong resiance in the party and anything could happen in cleveland. as we saw with the cavaliers, cleveland is already full of a few surprises. joining me now from new york is the chairman of the trump campaign, the head coach, if you will, paul manafort. welcome back to the show, sir. >> thank you, chuck. >> let me start with brexit. what i want to know is whether donald trump believes what happened in the uk is in the best interests of the united states. he said it was good for the uk, and i understand that. but does he believe what happened is in the best interests of thenited states? >> well, you have to understand what happened there. at happened with brexit was people taking ck control. i mean, the faceless bureaucrats in brussels and strasburg who have ruled and told the brits how to live, making promises to them that their lives would get better, and talking about a

future based on globalism versus family and individual and local community. that's what brexit was all about. and the reality is those are the same issues that have caused the angst in america today. this election in 2016, where donald trump is the only change agent, is set up perfectly on those same themes because hillary inton is the epitome of the establishment. she's been in power for 25 years. and the issues, the promises that gbalism is the solution, the promise that government is going to make your life better if you just give up your freedoms, the promises that we know better than you on how to make your lives better have been rejected. that's what donald trump has identied. that's what brexit identified. that's what's going to be the basis for the election in 2016. >> i understand that, but you didn't get at the core part of the question i asked. doese believe what happened with brexit and what could lead was in the best interest of=)ñ the united states? >> obviously, people feeling that their government is responsive to them is in the best interest of the united states. it's in the best interest of the

uk. it's in the best interest of countries all over the world. as far as the ability of the united states toork with the uk, i was interested to hear mr. miliband. he's part of the establishment. he's the hillary clinton of britain. he was just rejected in the results of the brexit vote. so for him to say with total arrogance that we know better even though we lost than the people of britain, that's exactly the arrogance donald trump is talking about and that hillary clinton represents and is going to be the basis for the campaign this fall. >> i want to get you to react. the clinton campaign is out this morning with a brex lt-related tv ad that hits mr. trump. here it is. i want you to react on the other side. >> every president is tested by world events. but donald trump thinks about how his golf resort can profit from them. >> when the pound goes down, more people are coming to turnberry. >> in a volatile world, the last thing we need is a volatile president. >> obviously, it picks up on what was a head-scratching event earlier this week, mr. manafort, which is on the day of the

biggest news event in the world, he is in the country at the heart of this, and he's promoting a golf course. >> this is an example again of the tone deafness of the clinton campaign. first of all, when you look what was happening in the clinton campaign over the last month, they have spent $60 million againsdonald trump on ads like this, talking about things that are totally distractive and unconnected to what's going on in the american litical system. the american people care about what is going to happen to their lives, about change. and the issues of brexit, this kind of phony ad doesn't address those things. and hillary clinton is ignoring the reality because she's part of the establishment. she can't get away from the fact that she is part of the problem that's being rejected. so when she tries to distract with commercials like this, she's once again showing she is absolutely afraid of the consequences of what brexit represented and what the trump

phenomenon in the primaries represented, which is historic numbers of people voting for change against the establishment. >> why was it appropriate for mr. trump to be promoting a golf course on the day of frankly what could be the most impactful decision that a country has made, that impacts, you know, the global community in a way that we are not fully comprehending yet, and he's promoting a golf course in the middle of his campaign? >> first of all, mr. trump is an international businessman. his success as an international businessman and a person who gets things done ione of the attractions of his candidacy. when he says he's going to bri real change to t country, voters believe him. unlike mrs. clinton who has been saying that for 25 years and in those 25 years, the only changes that have happened have made people's lives worse. >> donald trump said something else yesterday during his tour of scotland. he said he still hasn't begun his campaign. well, the clinton campaign has begun. what is the status of your campaign? i say this, obviously, corey

lewandowski was fired earlier this week. i guess there's more command and control for you, but explain. has this camign started yet or not for the trump campaign? >> first of all, corey lewandowski was part of an historic victory, and donald trump recognized that. but the campaign has now trantions to a new phase. we're now in the general election mode ofhe campaign. in that mode, last week, mr. trump laid out in his speech and prepared remarks the stakes of the election. what he sees at what is at stake between hillary clinton and the establishment and his change agenda. our campaign, frankly, is getting organized. it's all in words, i guess, but we are fully now integrated with the republican national committee. this week, we'll be making major announcemes of people taking over in major positions in our national campaign as well as our state campaigns. we're organized in all 16 states we're targeting as battleground states. we'll be making those announcements this week. the campaign is a process. and a lot of what we have been

doing over the last several weeks has not been different -- >> i'morry? >> do you acknowledge you're behind both organizationally and in t polls? >> no, because what you're trying to do is comparing an organization in brooyn of mrs. clintons with an integrated system of the rnc and trump campaign, which doesn't appear on an fec report. we have,000 of people in the battleound states, political organizers who are now in place, state organizations that are in place, our campaign plans in place, our budgets in place, and the good thing is we have a candidate who doesn't ed to figure out what's going on in order to say what he wants to do. so our campaign is organized. we're ready, going to have a good convention, and we're confident we're not behind the clinton campaign. they'rmuscle-bound. we're not. >> very quickly, dr. james dobson, a longtime evangelical leader has said that recently, donald trump accepted a

relationship with christ, and at he is now a baby christian, that within the last few weeks, he became a rn-again christian. what can you tell me about that? is that a fair way to describe it. is he now an evangelical christian? is that the way to describe donald trump's faith? >> i'm not going to speak to donald trump and his embrace of religion. you talk to him about that. i will say, however, that the evangelical leaders that have been a part of the christian movement in the united states came together last week and showed overwhelming support for mr. trump. and frankly, in my 40 years in politicsuric have never seen a broad base of support within that community for one candidate. never been this united. >> is dr. james dobson right or wrong, is donald trump converted to born-again christianity? >> again, you have to speak to donald trump about that. what i can speak to is christians across the country

and the leadership of the christian movement and the evangelical movement are broadly united for mr. trump in the campaign. >> all right, paul manafort joining us this morning from long island. thank you very much. >> when we come back, how the trump campaign has been very go for business. donald trump's business, that is. later, what if some u.s. states decided to make their own run for the brexit?

. welcome back to this week's data download. donald trump's campaign may have all rts of problems, but one thing we know, it's been good for business -- his business. trump's campaign spends liberally, at trump-owned propertiesesnd businesses. according to the fec, so let's take a look at where the money keep in mind, all of this is perfectly legal. wel start with eric trump's businesses. the trump campaign pd nearly $5,000 to eric trump wine manufacturing. it spent over $91,000 to rent out three different trump golf cluck clubs in florida. $136 to trump restaurants including trump grille and trump cafe and trump tower. over $420,000 to rent trump's mar-a-lago club in florida. that also doubles as his vacation home.

there's been more than $430,000 of trump campaign money spent on rent at the trump tower. of course, it's his fifth avenue skyscraper that does double as trump's campaign headquarters. and the biggest expebs of all has been $4.6 million the campaign has paid to tag air, which is the name of trump's private airline. all told, the campaign has spent over $6 million at trump-owned businesses out of about $63 million spent through the end of may. so 10% of all campaign spending has gone back to trump or trump affiliated businesses. again, none of what trump is doing is illegal. trump said he wished he didn't have to pay to use his own properties but he's required to by law. as the a.p. noted, steve forbes and michael bloomberg walled off their campaigns from their own companies, and of course, he was in scotland this week, not to talk brexit but to open a new ♪

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. next vice president of the united states. >> next president, the next vice

president of the united states of america. >> the next president of the united states, paul ryan. >> welcome back. as you can see, perhaps the most important decision a presidential candidate makes before taking office is the choice of a running meat, but maybe some othem need to reb they're picking a vice president, not a president. anyway, right now, at or near the top of everyone's list of possible running mates for hillary clinton is tim kaine. the current senator and former governor of virginia. i asked for him to respond to what donald trump had saidint the brexit. >> they want to take their country back, they want to have unless in a sense. you see it all over europe. yore going to have more than just, in my opinion, more than just what happened last night. you're going to have, i think, many other cases where they want to thak their borders back. they want to take their monetary back. they want to take a lot of things back. they want to be able to have a country again. so i think you're going to have this happen more and more. i really believe that. i think it's happening in the united states. it's happening by the fact that

i have done so well in the polls. >> do you think he's right, that there's a parallel? >> well, trump finishes with the real punch line, why i have done so well. it always has to be about him. you saw the other thing, hey, the british pound is taking a beating now, that could help my hotel out. your loss, britain, is my gain. this is a guy who will always put himself first. he's going to interpret it, here's how i have done well. >> what's your take? >> there's a couple things you have to understand, young voters, those under 50 overwhelmingly voted to stay, and it was older voters who voted to leave. certnly, immigration issues are important and a concern about some of the european regulation, et cetera. it's a huge deal, it really is. the important thing for us is because the relationship with britain has been so strong, and we're so close to european nationals, we have to help them find a path over the next couple years to do this in a way that can keep ties rather than tear ties apart. >> are you in favor of an assault-weapons ban?

>> i have voted for it. but i think there's a better way to go at the problem. that is limitations on the size of magazines and ammunition clips. here's the challenge -- >> you think an ar-15 should be sold? >> here's -- >> no limitations? >> i have voted for it. i would likely vote for it again. here's a practical problem i think you're aware of. as soon as you define what an assault weapon is, you can't sell a weapon and here's how we describe it, gun manufacturers make an adjustment and say see, this isn't subject to the limitation. whereas if you say you can't sell an ammunition clip or a magazine with more than 10 or 12 rounds -- >> ammunition is the way to go? >> i think that's probably the way to tackle the problem more effectely. >> are you qualified to be commander in chief? >> you know what, nobody should say they're ready for th responsibility because it is so, so huge. >> what does that mean when you hear that question? what do you think that means? what should go into being qualified? >> abraham lincoln wouldn't have said yes to that question, harry truman wouldn't have said yes.

those are my two favorite presidents. i'm doing my best to be a good senator. i replaced jim webb, and i sd, i can't replace jim webb. i'm going to try to be a good successor and taking on the armed services and foreign relations responsibilities. i'm trying to be a good successor. >> you're somebody who speaks out and not afraid to criticize his president. you have criticized him when it comes to declaring war, what he has done with isil. >> criticized congress more. >> would you be comfortable having to sell somebody else's position if they don't agree with you on, for instance, the definition of war powers? >> like a lot of people, i have been a leader in some things and a follower in some things. i was a lieutenant governor to mark warner. i was democratic national committee chair to president obama. so when i have been mayor or governor, senator, i have been the main guy, but whether it's in my church with the parish council or in other areas, i know how to be -- i know how to work on a team. most of life, frankly, to get things done, you have to get

done, you have to work as a team. >> when you go through this process, you went through it eight years ag i know you don't want to talk about what you're going through now, but is it a two-way interview? don't you have questions? >> don't use the word process. people will speculate, but i have one job and one job only right now. that is to work hard for hillary clinton so she can win and especially in virginia. that's the area where i have been helping her and the area where i'm going to help her. >> if she asks you to help her in some form or another, whatever the position is, what's your question to her before you accept? >> look, the reason i'm helping hillary, i encouraged hr to run in may of 20 because i could telescope forward and see the of the challenges that this nation would be fac i decided that by reason of character, by reason of background, and experience, but also especially by reason of results, she would be the most qualified person to be president in january of 2017. and so i have answered the questions that i need answered. >> no other assurance you would need before you would accept

doing anything for her? >> i have done my homework. i have done my homework. >> you vetted her? >> i have done my homework about what i think the country needs right now. and you know, everybody -- w have a nation of 300 plus million people, and i'm absolutely confident she's the right person to tackle the huge challenges ahead of us. >> when you first ran as lieutenant governor, you were classified as a pro-life democrat. you're not described as that now. how would you descbe your abortion position? >> people use labels all the time. i'm kind of a traditional catholic. personally, i'm opposed to abortion, and perjuriy, i'm opposed to the death penalty. >> are there regulations that should be on abortion? >> let me continue. i deeply believe, and not just as a matter of politics, but even as a matter of morality, that matters about reproduction and intimacy and relationships and contraception are in the personal realm. they're moral decisions for individuals to make for

themselves. and the last thing we need is government intruding into those personal decisions. so i have taken the position which is quite common among catholics. i have a personal feeling about abortion, but the right rule for government is to let women make their own decisions. so for example, monday, the supreme court's likely to decide a really importa case about abortion rights. which is many states including virginia have tried to basically take out the constitutional right that gives women the ability to choose by putting these onerous regulations on clinics, health clinics where abortions are provided. we fought those off in virginia when i was governor because you have to let people make their own moral judgments. >> a lot of people are writing about you right now in american politics. and it seems to be -- >> don't believe the hype. don't believe the hype. >> kaine is as boring as he is safe. kaine is also considered kind of well boring. he has a deep resume, well tested political sil skill, but

he's not anyone's idea of exploding volcanic charisma. you lack an exploding volcano of charisma. are these critiques or compliments to you? >> they are true. i am boring. >> okay. >> but you know, boring is the fastest growing demographic in this country. >> so there you go. well, tim kaine, you have a sense of humor as well. thanks for coming. appreciate it. >> there you go. we like to think we're never boring here, and tim kaine is just one of the names thrown around for the possible veep spot. when we come back, we'll look at the leading contenders right now in bh campgns. then this question. what if some states decided to make their own run for the brexit from the united states.

. welcome back. panel is back. all right. doris, tim kaine, is that a future vice president? what did you think? >> this is when we who know nothing say something and the meme who know things say nothing. >> there you go. good-bye, turn it off. there it is. we're done. we just told everyone. >> well, if she wants to double down on experience and her strengths, then he's got it in a certain sense. mayor, senator, governor, dnc chairman. and somebody who can govern if something happens to her and he could clearly be president. the question is, if she wants to be a change agent when we're talking about post-brexit, perhaps you put a latino in. then you have the first woman

ever and the first latino ever and you're making history. if you want to appeal to the ideology, you look to sherrod or elizabeth warren. you nt to win the white house, you want to be in the oval aump >> so says the lbj biographer over here. >> i don't even know if 2 should come down to a minority question or a demographic. this, i think for hillary clinton, what was her biggest problem in the primary? bernie voters. they didn't like her because they didn't feel she was to the left enough. i don't know how you then go and choose tim kaine as your running mate. look, there are polls out there showing there are about 25% of people who voted for bernie sanders saying they would rather vote for donald trump than her. >> you know, helene, there's something else here that both of them just got at. your paper today got at this. there's something about brexit th should have hillary nervous. because she's not a change agent. she is campaigning for status quo. and in some ways what you just described with tim kaine, doris,

is also status quo. this is a challenge for her, isn't it? >> it absolutely is. but you can't forget that ti kaine brings virginia with him. that's huge, and that's a state that's in play. >> about winning. >> also about winning. i kind of agree with kim. i always liked the ideof hillary and elizabeth warren because i like the idea of doubling down on the female vote and going for it because you do brg in the bernie voters that way. tim kaine does seem safe. so you know, it's like -- i don't know about the castro thing. >> elizabeth warren, by the way, elizabeth warren, i think the "new york times" eviscerated her transparent person with the press. she runs away from the press actively. >> the administration doesn't like her. >> hillary clinton gets criticized for being inaccessible. elizabeth warren would make her look like the most accessible president since andrew jackson. >> you know, chuck, i also think that if the republicans need a way to unify, and they quite clearly do, and donald trump is

struggling with it, hillary clinton is helpful in that regard to donald trump. elizabeth warren on the ticket is even more helpful because those are the two people that republicans hate the most. you put them on the ticket, the other thing i would say, where is a problem donald trump had raising money. wall street major donors. who hates elizabeth warren more than -- i mean, you talk to any wall street type and you mention a name, eye roll, groan. much more so than hillary, even more so than bernie. et's talk trump running mates because this is a more difficult -- we know what he needs, but what he needs -- >> what he needs and what he wants. >> softening. and nikki haley or condi ric he doesn't want th either. he's afraid of looking like he's he doesn't want to pick. the short list is four white guys. kimberly? >> right, because what he needs, just to verbalize this, he needs

experience. you can bet, take it to the bank, that is what donald trump, his campaign advisers have anything to say, will choose as a vice presidential pick because he needs the country. look, what is hillary clinton going to hit him on every day from now until the election? he's not stable. he can't be trusted. so the basis of his campaign needs to be providing that balance to himself. >> doris, he needs one other thing he has to be careful of here. he can't upset conservatives right before this convention, which already looks like it could -- it doesn't take much to light a fire at this convention against him. >> no question. there is still a worry that maybe something will happeor a desire on the part of some republicans that something will happen. it has to be conservative. the interesting thing is he at once floated the idea of a military leader as his partner. he said it doesn't matter because i'm going to be so good at national security, i won't need that guy. >> george will's resignation from the republican party, i lot of our viewers have been reading george will for years. it's probably shocking them this

morning. does it matter? >> no, because the intellectual elite of the republican party, of which george will is a card carrying member. >> darn "wall street journal" editorial page. he'll lead us there. >> breaking news, the intellectual piece of the with donald trump.sn't thrilled for the average trump voter, even someone who is moderately interested in donald trump, frankly, the idea that george will is not for him will make them even more convinced. the problem is how big is that group? big enough to win the republican primary? big enough to win general election, not yet? >> the echo chamber effect. >> well, look. the whole problem that donald trp has at the moment is a vast division within the republican party. ok, he barely won -- he did get 50% in the end. but there are significant numbers of average voters, too, who also are very skeptical of donald trump. >> a majority of republicans in our poll would prefer another nominee. they know they're not going to get it, but a majority would get

it. >> that's why this convention is still going to be very interesting. >> let's take a quick pause. i have a fascinating poll question to share with you on the other side. we're back in 45 seconds with "end game" and a little fun we're having here. if your state decideto make its own brexit, what would you call it? we'll be right back. coming up, "meet the press" be the you who doesn't cover your moderate to severe plaque psoriasis. be the you who shows up in that dress. who hugs a friend. who is done with treatments that don't give you clearer skin. be the you who controls your psoriasis with stelara® just 4 doses a year after 2 starter doses. stelara® may lower your ability to fight infections

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building the furture one century at a time welcome ck. end game time. one of the other big stories domestically was this house sit-in on gun legislation. i know -- i saus you loo like oh, my god, did that happen this week, too? >> 2:30 in the morning on that one. >> that was only wednesday, i believe, if i can keep track of my days. look at this gun question here, and the nbc/"wall street journal" poll. it's a question we asked 20 years ago and today. restricting gun rights, will the government go too far or not far enough. 50% believes the government right now will go too far. 47% not far enough. this is a trend question we have done for years. in june of '95, the first debate about the assault-weaponed ban took place. 58% back then were worried we wouldn't go far enough. we had fewer gun laws since then, kimberly, yet the public's perception has changed. >> there are more gun owners out there and less trust in government. less trust -- >> combine the two, there you

go. >> the right way. and i think that's why this debate was a little silly this week, too, just because, you know, you have democrats doing the sit-in, saying we have to put this no-fly list thing, for example, but the truth is what body wants to talk about is the country needs to do everything it can to make sure that weapons of any sort don't get into the hands of terrorists, as long as we can protect due process right. the reality is there are millions and millions of rifles out there already, and a hardened terrorist is going to get one. unless some democrat says we need to collect them all and rounds them up, which no one wants to do, this is not the answer to it. >> doris, what did you make of this week's events by mocrats? >> i think the sit-in made us talk about it today, which we might not have been doing. th's what it probably was devised for. i think the sit-in is also a reminder the only way anything is going to happen on guns probably is if there's a real social movement outside the

social structure that forces and mobilized the politicians to do somethg, or unless you get a super majority inside the congress. >> but there isn't. and by the way -- >> the problem is the intensity is on the side of the gun owners. and the people who care about gun laws being strengthened, they care about it and still care about it, but there's other things on their numbers where. >> the trend line on the numbers is fascinating. 1995 to now, i don't know more mass shootings, no more public publicity of mass shootings. every time one of these happens, the thinking is we move closer to gun control. the truth of the matter is, and i said this since newtown, if if the deaths of 20 first graders didn't change the gun debate, then the truth is they never got a vote on anything other than process in the senate, it went down, almost nothing, barring what doris is talking about, a large-scale

change in how we perceive these things. >> all right. now we're going to go to the favorite segment here. been very excited about this today. we've heard a lot of jokes playing on the word brexit. it's brex-iting right now to be british, at least at a pub. but the independent journal came out with 50 brexit inspired names, one for every state, that might decide they'd like to invoke their own only 50 and make it the 49 states of america. number i've oh,byeo. number four, texit. my producer believes a more appropriate name is just texas. number three, tenancy-ya later. number two flo-riddance. and our favorite of them right now isva, is for leavers. >> come on. >> you don't like it? you know what? >> that's the worst of the lot. >> that's all for today.

we're back next week because if it's sunday, it's "meet the press." it's monday, june 27th. right now on "first look" over 240 people evacuated while an airliner is engulfed in flames after landing with an engine warning. the brexit vote, wipes out $2 trillion in stocks, as the presidential candidates jockey for the upper hand with u.s. voters. protesters and white supremacists in a violent clash leaving ten injured. multiple stabbings, and a handful in critical condition in california. plus dozens killed in west virginia, flooding, with more rain on the way today. propose francis says gay people deserve an apology. but that's not all. and much more as we kick off a busy week. "first look" starts right now. good monday morning to you i'm betty nguyen. thanks for watching. frightening mom f