very basic level if you're donald trump, the red states he has up there on the target list, he has to defend them all. that's his first task. defend all of them and start making inroads. you can see why he is the underdog in a general election. it's our most important number of the day. 17 target states for the trump campaign. that does it for us at this hour. "mtp daily" with chuck todd starts right now. it's thursday. it's a five-hour grilling for the fbi director. did republicans make a mistake by even holding this hearing? did they inadvertently help hillary clinton? this is "mtp daily" and it starts right now. ♪ good evening from new york. i'm chuck todd. welcome to minute daily. another busy day on the campaign

trail. capitol hill the center of the campaign universe. what else is completely disturbing, the latest shocking shooting of a black driver, motorist, by a police officer. house republicans. i want to start with president politics. house republicans spent all day today doing their best to what they believe would be to capitalize on what some believe donald trump squandered this week. that is a focus on what fbi director james comey handed the republicans. you could argue they handed him enough fodder against hillary clinton to create attack ads that would last until november with what was a scathing rebuke of what he called on tuesday careless email practices. but of course, instead donald trump seemed to only turn it into a one-day story and instead divided his focus on other personal controversies. we'll of course, focus on that later in the show. sticking with comey. he testified before the house

oversight committee for what was a grueling five-hour session. on his decision not to recommend charges against clinton. you could argue, by going this extra mile to highlight the worst of clinton's carelessness, house republicans gambled on exposing a stronger defense by comey of his own decision and a stronger defense of some of clinton's practices on email. the question comes down to whether comey was a greater asset or liability politically as far as the republican party is concerned. take a look. >> did hillary clinton break the law? >> in connection with her use of the email server? my ju. dgment is she did. >> did she lie. >> to the fbi? we have no basis to conclude she lied to the fbi. if she worked for me. it would be fair to have a robust disciplinary hearing. i want them to know that's not

true. >> it's possible his words on tuesday, if left alone, would have made for a stronger condemnation of clinton's judgment. instead republicans put a spotlight on a series of what turned out to have comey myth-busting, various theories surrounding her private server that may have not been overturn overturned. he ended up comparing clinton and former director david petraeus. >> you had vast quantities of highly classified information, not only shared with someone without authority to have it, but we found it in a search warrant hidden under the insulation in his attic, and then he lied to us about it during the investigation. so you have obstruction of justice, you have intentional misconduct, and a vast quantity of information. he admitted he knew that was the wrong thing to do. >> and then comey publicly shut down another myth that's been out there, the assertion from a hacker who, of course goes by

the name of gooseifer, that he somehow gained access to clinton's server while she was secretary of state. >> can you confirm that gooseifer never gained access to her server? >> he did not. he admitted that was a lie. >> house republicans wrestled with the email probe, and the rnc did what some argue should have happened all along. simply used comey's words to go after clinton. here is a portion they sectioned off from the hearing and ended up blasting out to press via email. >> what the statute does say is knowing you removed such materials without authority, is it fair that she knew that she didn't have the authority to have this server in her basement? >> yes, that's true. >> politically republicans may feel they made some headway in the hearing. and that's -- for this one reason, they got another investigation in motion by the fbi. this time over whether clinton lied under oath. >> did the fbi investigate her statements under oath on this

topic? >> not to my knowledge. i don't think there has been a referral from caongress. >> do you need a referral from congress to investigate her statements under oath? >> sure do. >> you'll have one. you'll have one in the next few hours. >> so there you go. now they can say throughout the fall that clinton is still under an fbi investigation. chaifetz did submit that referral, by the way, moments ago. but they have to walk this line that the clintons have successfully been able to navigate before, and that is this. do house republicans go too far in going after clinton? republicans previously lauded james comey. chaifetz went out of his way to call him a man of integrity with his finger on the pulse of this matter. this time around it was the democrats who embraced comey. republicans hammered him on whether or not his decision held up. what did hold up was his unflappable defense of the decision. comey had to come back firmer than ever against the republicans on this oversight

republicans, and they ended up forcing him to do it. let me turn first to republican congressman jim jordan of ohio, a member of the house oversight committee. let me start with this, congressman. politically here, what did you get out of this hearing that you think advances the ball and tells you more about this investigation? >> that -- that wasn't the focus, chuck. the focus was to get to the -- some questions and concerns the american people have. right now a lot of americans feel there are two systems. one standard for we the people, another standard for the politically connected. >> do you believe that? >> mr. comey himself said -- yes, i do. lois lerner, the architect of targeting conservatives, getting the full pension. no implication for what she did. destroying 422 backups under subpoena, two subpoenas, what's happened to him? nothing. the american people, rightly, think that -- when you -- 80%, 80% of americans feel like this town is rigged against them and

the decision tuesday, and then this decision yesterday by the attorney general, i think lends support to the concerns americans have. today's hearing was to try to address those concerns. mr. comey himself said he welcomed being there and being as transparent as possible to answer our questions. >> what could he say to make you say, you know what, there were not two systems at work here? >> i think one of the things we'll look at -- and you brought this up in your opening remarks -- is the fact that i do believe secretary clinton gave false testimony to us in the benghazi committee last october. and you don't take my word for it. take from director comey said. mrs. clinton said under oath that she had only one server. director comey said, no, she had more than one. she said she returned all emails that were related. director comey said in the investigation, you did not do that. she said every single email was reviewed by her legal team. mr. comey said that was not the case. those are three statements she made directly proven false by

director comey's investigation. we think it's something that should be looked into. no other american could get away with that. >> that's what we keep going back and forth on here. is it possible she is being -- would you ever sit here and say she is being over-targeted? because of who she is. would anybody else have had a second congressional hearing, what you guys did? what other person who have had after the fbi director made the decision he made, you guys say we're going to call another hearing. we can make a case. who else goes under that? >> what other person gets to make false statements to congress and not be investigated. who else gets to set up an email server that nobody else had and keep classified information on the server and, when she is caught, house her legal team decide which one she keeps and which ones she gives to us. the ones they kept she deleted and her legal team scrubbed

every device so that no forensic recovery could take place. sounds like they were trying to hide something. no one else gets away with it in this country. >> you seemed to short-hand some of comey's explanations. he seemed to explain away the differences -- he was -- he accepted the clinton legal team's version of searching all the emails, saying they did a search in separating them out. they didn't go one by one. he accepted that as one and the same. why don't you? just curious. >> but it's different than what she testified to. and he also said today that thousands of those emails were destroyed. thousands of emails destroyed that we never get to see. remember what took place. they set up their own system, get caught. they sort it on the front end and then the ones they keep they say, just to be sure, we're going to delete all those and they go to the even additional step of scrubbing the devices the lawyers had so that no forensic -- this is not jim jordan's words.

this is director comey's words, so no forensic recovery could take place. you don't tell me a logical person, a regular american, could infer intent to do harm there, intent to maybe hide evidence there? >> what do you believe she was hiding? is there a point where there is too much innuendo? this is sort of like he -- at what point do we get to -- nobody -- everything is politically motivated here, right? you're saying what she did is politically motivated, what the clinton campaign is saying is that you guys are politically motivated. what does the public see? >> do innocent people wipe clean their devices? do innocent people decide up front what to keep. do people say i'm going to set up the server. it was set up so the information could never get public. she kept everything there. do innocent people get to do that? it's a logical inference. >> why do you think you believe

she is guilty and director comey believes she is innocent? >> i didn't say she is guilty. i said a logical person could infer that. people i represent in ohio think there are two standards at work. one for regular folks and one for the politically connected. here is the secretary of state, former senator, former first lady, nominee of a major party running for president. and oh, by the way, her husband just met with the attorney general five days ago on a tarmac in arizona. you don't people will look at it and say, what's going on hear? >> here. >> i hear from the same people and you're right. the perception is what i think the public is seeing. the question is, at what point do you feel like you're satisfied that even if it looks bad, boy, the fbi did their job? >> if mr. comey would have looked at those statements that she made that are now proven to be false, if he -- but he didn't look at that. so you have to look at that.

because that would be what would happen to any other american who comes in front of congress and makes false statements, false testimony to congress. >> i'll leave it there. congressman of ohio. appreciate you coming on, sir. i know it was a long, grueling day. turning to the democratic side. congressman ted lu. also sits on the committee. he was also there. thanks for coming on, congressman. >> thank you, chuck. >> let me start with sort of pick up on the conversation there. look, the fact of the matter is, we live in an era of distrust. and the assumption is all of you guys are guilty until proven innocent, whether it's congressman lu, congressman jordan, secretary clinton. the political world is that way. can you guarantee that hillary clinton didn't get special treatment? and do you understand why people do think she did? >> i thank you, chuck, for that question. i can't guarantee it but the fbi director can. and today's hearing showed that the committee had no credibility

because jim jordan, my colleague has opposed hillary clinton for president. i have endorsed hillary clinton for president. every member on the committee is a politicaltatiian with a bias. that's why we have mr. comey making the decision. he gave a clear, forceful defense of why secretary clinton did not intentionally violate any laws whatsoever. >> do you think it is fair that the fbi investigate whether her statements to congress were truthful and whether they're -- whether she lied under oath? do you think that's a fair referral to the fbi? >> a congress can make referrals to the fbi, how they want to conduct the investigation. today's hearing showed the american public that there is another example of republican overreach and a waste of taxpayer resources. just like the benghazi committee this hearing back-fired big-time. there was nothing knew that anyone learned today other than

that secretary clinton committed no crimes whatsoever and the fbi director was eloquent in his explanation of what happened. >> are you at all troubled by how she handled this? >> how secretary clinton handled this? >> yes. >> she has admitted that she made a mistake. >> but are you troubled? >> that she will not do this in the future. i am not troubled because there is a mass amount of hypocrisy going on among my republican colleagues. guess what. members of congress, we get security clearances because we are members. we get to have multiple private email servers, multiple private email accounts. we get to carry our devices overseas. the american people saw that you have hypocrisy going on that members of congress reviewing this evidence making statements. we have no business casting doubts on the fbi's judgment. >> one of the last comments congressman jordan made. i hear from viewers who say the

same thing. secretary clinton is a lawyer. she was first lady. senator, secretary of state. that if anybody understood the risks when it comes to classified information it's somebody with all the experience that she has. why shouldn't she be held to a higher standard? >> the fbi director gave a very good explanation today about what happened in this case. of the over 30,000 emails they found only three that had any classified markings, and it was shown today that those were improperly marked. it was a "c" with parentheses around it. a busy person sending and receiving thousands of emails could have easily missed that little character. to prosecute hillary clinton would have set her up for a higher standard that no one else would have been held to. the fbi director did the right thing and applied the same standard regardless of who it was. >> do you think we're inn an er that no matter the conclusion

the fbi comes to half the people won't believe it? >> we're buysiased politicians the fbi director is a career public servant. he serves the country with honor. he came to a conclusion after a year-long investigation that secretary clinton did not commit any crimes whatsoever with any intent. >> i appreciate the candor but i have to say it's a little disconcerting at at least one member of congress is saying what a lot of people believe that the situation is hopelessly divided and let's let politics divide things. is that the way it works? on this issue it is because the only reason the committee held the hearing is because secretary clinton is running for president. a lot of other issues we came together with bipartisan support but not on this one. >> congressman thank you for sharing your views. we played a sound bite earlier of fbi director james comey saying petraeus had

notebooks in his attic. what it's worth. comey later in the hearing said he misspoke and that the notebooks were found in petraeus' desk not hidden in the attic. coming up, more tense meetings on capitol hill. this one behind closed doors and involved the presidential nominee from the republican party. did donald trump mend fences with republican members of congress finally, or have things gotten worse with a couple of them? and later, another deadly police-involved shooting. i'll talk with reverend al sharpton about what's happening in louisiana and minnesota in the last 72 hours. stay tuned. three-quarters of what it takes to replace it. what are you supposed to do? drive three-quarters of a car? now if you had liberty mutual new car replacement™, you'd get your whole car back. i guess they don't want you driving around on three wheels. smart. with liberty mutual new car replacement™,

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donald trump's shadow looms large for republican senators up for reaction this november. the shadow was cast on capitol hill today as trump met with senate republicans. check out the daily map. 22 states with republican senators running for re-election in november. eight are in races we consider

pretty close with their democratic challengers this november. four of them, by the way, of the incumbent republican senators did not attend today's meeting with trump on the hill. they are senators mccain, rubio, kirk, and ayotte. all opting out of the trump meeting. three of the four pretty diverse states. just the tip of the iceberg of the intrigue from trump today on the hill. more on that in a minute including the man who kicked things off for trump today in a minute. guess who the incumbent senators were who were at the meeting? toomey, fortman and johnson of wisconsin. tells you something about trump. we'll be right back.

senators were who were at th . 11 days to the republican convention. donald trump stormed capitol hill today. in an attempt to win over some of his critics and unify a fractured party on capitol hill. the results appear mixed.

today some members go got the full trump. in a closed door meeting he seemed to be comfortable ripping into two of his critics. he characterized senator mark kirk as a loser. sources sold nbc news jeff flake confronted his attacks on john mccain's war record, introducing himself saying i'm the other congressman from minnesota, the one who didn't get captured. here is more on the confrontation in an interview after the fact with my colleague, hallie jackson. >> what an awful, awful thing to say about a war hero, a true war hero. i don't think that we can be dismissive of that kind of statement. it's just wrong. and so i thought that he needed to hear it from maybe the other senator from arizona. >> trump also apparently told flake he wouldn't win re-election. flake reminded trump he is not up for re-election this year.

he also singled out ben sass of nebraska, one of his fiercest republican critics in an apparent attempt to woo him over. the office saying they were less than convinced. mr. sass continues to believe that our country is in a bad place and with these two candidates the election remains a dumpster fire. nothing has changed. he met with 215 members of the house republican conference. a lot better than the senate side. reince priebus was in attendance. by most accounts that meeting was very policy-focused as opposed to the senate meeting which apparently was a little more personality focused. some republicans on the hill remain skittish in large part due to trump's inability to stay on message. at a time when republicans are trying to focus the fire power on clinton''s email woes he went into a rant last night. touched on saddam hussein. star of david. teleprompters. plenty of us in the media. i have a trump style shout out.

>> i wake up, turn on the television. donald trump loves saddam hussein. he loves saddam hussein. it's the star of david. you know, they took the star down. i said too bad. you should have left it up. teleprompters. let somebody come up and do what i do. kristi cnn is terrible to me. chuck todd is terrible to me. jack nicklaus. bag pipes, ribbon cutting, with other the bernie sanders stuff and everything you hear and all this -- >> joined by cnbc contributor larry kudlow who introduced mr. trump today. good to see you. >> appreciate it. >> our description of the house and senate meetings. i have to ask you about the senate meeting. what happened? the description i got one policy-focused. one more personality focused. fair description? >> yes and no. look, the house republican side

was policy driven. maybe it's because that's the way i introduced the session. i have moderated things. i walked through. here are the issues we face. looks like there is very little day light between mr. trump and the republican conference. i think most agree with that. i had a guy stand up, not naming names, but said he was totally against trump in the primaries and now he's totally in favor of trump. it really was a unity meeting. paul ryan, i think, speaker ryan, echoed the same thing. it was quite good. senate side. look, i am not going to name names. i am not going through it. i was in the meeting. i saw tremendous unanimity. there is also some dissent with senators because they're senators. that's what they do. >> in fairness. when they are up for re-election there is more personality focus. their face is on the ballot. >> i agree. >> mr. sasse has been against trump from day one.

he was not at the meeting today as far as i know. there was a discussion that you mentioned. i don't want to name names, but there was a discussion about that. so be it. on the other hand, after the thing -- a lot of the senators came up to talk to me. they're very much in trump's corner. what you got out of today, two weeks before the convention, whenever it is, you are really moving now from a late start. you're moving towards a united party. that's the way i look at it. everybody was in these meetings today is going to be a delegate. all but just a couple will wind up being for trump. look, chuck, i am not a political guy. i am a tax cut guy. i want better economy, better wages. mr. trump has been a very good job on that. i want lower spending. i actually want some free trade as long as we police it properly sm . >> he is not known for a light touch. i could argue, in a meeting like that, that's what was necessary. where was the light touch? jeff flake needed a light touch today. you know. why doesn't he have that gene?

i think it went both ways. i agree with your reporting on senate flake. i think senator flake was extremely hostile and aggressive in his question. it wasn't a question. it was an attack on donald trump. you want to get donald trump annoyed, that's the way to do it. trump has laid off flake, not added one single word against him even though flake has been a constant and difficult and impolite critic. what mr. trump said today was, i have not done anything, but if you keep coming after me, i am going to have to respond to that. on the other hand, everybody else talking to him asking constructive questions, particularly about policies where, as i said, there is a growing agreement. i mean, the thing about mr. trump -- i just want to say this. i am not part of the inner circle but i'm an informal advisor on some of the economics. his positions on issues are, in

my opinion, mainstream republican. mainstream supply side, tax cuts. >> except on trade. >> wait a second. a lot of free traders, including myself, nothing wrong with asking china and others to play by the rules. trump said clearly today in the house, he said it. he said, look, i am for free trade. i do see the benefits of trade, but we have to work through, if you're continually violating it, china and so forth, we have to do something about it. i don't think there is any dissent on that in the gop. to me that's another one of these overrated issues. >> larry kudlow. you set up a pretty good house meeting for him. let me guess you didn't introduce him to the senate meeting, did you? >> i didn't. >> uh oh. all right. calling the trump tower. >> wished i had. >> there you go. >> always a pleasure. thank you. still ahead. save the dates. fall debate schedule is now official. so is the format. will the candidates be able to keep conversations focused on

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♪ tonight it's all about ted cruz's busy week. he has a new chief of staff. cruz moved a former presidential campaign advisor into the position. he has deep ties in political circles but no experience on capitol hill.

a private meeting between donald trump and reince priebus. cruz noticeably quiet and has not endorsed. here is what mike pence had to say about that. >> it's important for him and his supporters to get on board for donald trump? >> i think it's important for every republican to get on board with donald trump. i haven't spoken to senator cruz since the indiana primary but appreciate my relationship with him. >> cruz says he'll speak at the convention. john kasich tells us he is not speaking in cleveland. the home state republican governor, not speaking in cleveland. to 2020. ted cruz laying the groundwork for what could be another national run. he has his re-election in 2018. starting new groups that could throw muscle behind his legislative agenda. wants to deep the donor database coming. the first major candidate to

jump into the race in 2016. early adapter to data driven appeals to voters and first to announce a vp pick. now cruz looks like he is aiming for another start for a race. he is not focused on the senate. his new chief of staff has more experience in iowa than in washington. how he'll cooperate with trump's campaign heading into november. much more to come on "mtp daily." here is kate rogers with the market wrap. >> stocks closed mixed ahead of friday's employment report. dow slips 22 points. s&p shedding one. nasdaq adds 17. added jobs in june. more than economists expected. another report showed employers planned 38,000 layoffs in june. a 28% increase over may's level. june jobs report due out tomorrow. it's expected to show 175,000

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we have a great opportunity coming out of some great conflict and tragedy to really transform how we think about community law enforcement relations so that everybody feels safer and our law enforcement officers feel, rather than being embattled, feel fully supported. we need to seize that opportunity. >> that was president obama, 16 months ago. after meeting with his presidential task force on policing. this followed the deaths of michael brown and eric garner. today the country is focusing on two police-involved shootings, both caught on tape. philando castile in minnesota and alton sterling in louisiana.

last night an officer shot and killed castile in falcon heights, minnesota, during a traffic stop. he apparently had a broken taillight. his girlfriend began live streaming the aftermath on facebook. the video appears to show an officer pointing the gun through the window while castile is slumped over in the driver's seat his shirt bloody. what happened bfr the video began is not known. she says he fired four shots while he was reaching for his license in his wallet. she says he was carrying a licensed firearm which she says he told the officer. protesters have been gathering outside the governor's mansion in st. paul since last night calling for justice. mark dayton called for an immediate investigation by the department of justice. he held a press conference a short time ago saying the police response was way in excess of what was needed. >> would this have happened if those passengers, the driver or passengers were white? i don't think it would have. so i am forced to confront and i

think all of us in minnesota are forced to confront this kind of racism exists. >> pretty blunt talk there from the governor. meantime. last night in baton rouge, a vigil for alton sterling, shot during what police called an altercation outside a convenience store. the justice department opened a civil rights investigation into the case. the naacp called the cellphone video of the incident hard to watch but, quote, for harder to ignore. it isn't impossible to ignore a year and a half since the president's task force meeting we're a still having the same conversations and vigils and political rhetoric. according to the "washington post" in the past 16-month over a thousand people have been shot and killed. bringing reverend al sharpton. he was with president obama at the meeting. welcome to the show, sir. >> thank you. >> the minnesota situation in --

incredibly hard. we are hearing more and more details about the girlfriend, separated from her son. i want to go to the larger issue. before the last 72 hours i thought there was momentum here. bipartisan agreement that something is wrong with the system. we need better this, better that. we're deeti we're debating what the better is. body cameras and those things. is this is setback or the system still needs to be cleaned up and we are making process. >> the system still needs to be cleaned up and we may make progress and we may not. two things that are disturbing to me. and i am on my way to minnesota because some people there have asked me to come. what's disturbing to me is that we are talking about changing the culture and changing the training before we first correct the fact that, when there are bad cops that do criminal acts, they need to be penalized in a criminal manner.

that does not mean all cops are bad or even most cops are bad. but i think the only way, chuck, that we are going to see a sobering of the police brass in locales is when we start seeing policemen actually go to jail for breaking the law. and the reason i say that is when we had a case in new york many years ago and the federal government came in. we couldn't deal with the local authorities. we didn't trust them, just as we're doing in baton rouge. and those policemen ended up going to jail for many years. we didn't have problems for a long time because people said, wait a minute. i've got to think before i shoot because i can go to jail. i think the first thing we need to deal with is that we have not seen anyone really punished in all of these months. once you see that, i think the community starts saying, well, the system is really working, and i think police start saying, we really have to think and deal with these guidelines because they're going to be enforced.

>> where would we be on this issue without cellphone video? >> i think we would be somewhere still saying that people like me were just making these things up, and i think that most people would be in denial. it's understandable. see, i don't even say that it's all racism when people deny it. a lot of it is. but some people, it's not their reality. and they're just like -- >> you don't want to believe it. >> you don't want to believe it. >> we had a conversation -- i said i wouldn't bring this up. we had a conversation during the break about oj. >> right. >> about the difference between the white america's reaction in 1995 versus black america's reaction in 1995. an incredulousness. people not wanting to believe the police would act that way. 2016. white america has seen the video. do you think that's what's going to change -- change how we respond? >> i think it will change as long as we are persistent and as long as we continue to raise the

issue. because now people are seeing -- i have people stop me in the streets, airports, everywhere saying, i thought you were crazy, but now at least i see the problem that has you so animated. may not agree with me, but they see it. now they don't feel it is a fabrication. i think, in that climate, real change can happen if we are disciplined and constructive. >> i just got word president obama will actually address this on camera but not for another six or seven hours. he's at a nato meeting. he's in warsaw. it will be afternoon midnight our time when we hear from him. somebody may have reached out and said what would you like to hear him say but i'll ask you. >> i would like to hear him say that the commission that he established that you showed the video that day, should be adhered to. he's hearing the governor of minnesota say some of the things that when he said it he was attacked. the governor called this racist.

and that we need to now have laws and enforcement, which is something that his commission had recommended. i hope that he will say that, because we're not hearing those that want to succeed him say specifically those things. trump hasn't addressed it. and hillary has made a good statement, but not been specific enough. i think the president can set the tone tonight. >>sharpton. we'll be watching. >> thank you, chuck. >> a lot of people will tune into what you have this sunday. when we come back. back to 2016 politics. just hayed ahead in the lid, alt debate. stay tuned. i don't think so! [ sighs ] it's okay, big fella. we're gonna get through this together. [ baseball bat cracks ] nice rip, robbie. ♪ raaah! when you bundle home and auto insurance through progressive, you get more than just a big discount. i'm gonna need you to leave. you get relentless protection. [ baseball bat cracks ]

we are still 124 days until election day. we want to share a new national poll of significance that's out today from pew research. might have insight on how the vote to split. shows hillary clinton with a nine-point lead over donald trump. could it hold? history of the pew poll. june 2012 president obama up four points over mitt romney. that november obama won by four points. 51-47. guess what. june 2008. senator obama held an eight-point lead over then senator john mccain. while obama performed better, percentage-wise in november, let's say he won by just over seven points. so, as results roll in this november, mind the gap there, what pew has shown in june. i have told you this before in general. don't overlook where the race stands in june. it's an important marker. races can change just as michael

dukakis, but june matters. we'll be right back.

i have a policy question for you, sir. >> let's see if he answers it. >> i it. >> i will. don't worry about it. don't worry about it. don't worry about it, little marco. i will. >> let's hear, big don. >> don't worry about it, little marco. >> let's just say it had a lot of theater. according to some folks, it didn't have a lot of substance. actually, according to me and others. a lot of us didn't think they were substantive. in the general election the commission on presidential debates is trying to do whatever they can to tailor the rules so we can actually get substance. they have announced the formats today. the first and third presidential debates will have six segments at 15 ints each with topics decided by the moderator and the two candidates will go at it. the second will be a town hall format. they get two minutes to respond with a one minute discussion to

follow. mix of both town hall people and moderator get to ask questions. we will talk more about this with the two co-chairs on the commission for presidential debates. welcome to both of you. mike, let me start with you. the format looks pretty much exactly the same as four years ago. am i wrong here? i feel like the formats are -- what are the big differences? what changes do you feel were made? >> the big difference is we have these blocks of time where candidates can actually talk about the future of this country in a reasonable way, engage each other, get away from these very highly structured formats than sometimes we have seen and by the way, little bit of difference from the primary debate clip you just had. in a setting where we don't expect the audience to be part of the discussion. this is really about the two candidates with strong moderators who will bring the candidates into a place where they can really talk intelligently about the future of the country.

i think that's what this debate ought to be about. it's a very very important election, very important for the future of the country and we want to hear from the candidates. >> what about the republican primary debates -- what part of it would you want a little bit of into this and obviously, we know a lot of it you guys don't. but what part from the primary season would you like to see make it to the general? >> i would be very candid with you, i find very little that we want to see transferred in. >> that was a softball for you. >> it sure was. another change that is significant i think is what we are doing with the town hall meeting. for years, we have had about 100 people in a bleacher-like setting who would ask the questions and we will sort of divide that up. we will have a smaller group of citizens, it's in st. louis at washington university, who will ask questions for half the time, then the moderator will have received already from twitter, facebook, all the social media platforms that we have been working with for the last couple

years, subjects that the american people want to hear about. so it's going to be a little mixed bag in the town hall meeting. >> let me ask you this, frank. why not a fourth presidential debate? there was some chatter about it. i ask it this way. i notice the first debate is not until late september. lot of early voting. there's been a lot of talk about should there be a debate in late august? i know we got jewish holidays in september. we got football, we got baseball. i know all of your challenges. how seriously did you consider an august debate? >> we took a look at whether or not we should have more than one because as you said, both of the conventions have moved up into late july. normally they are in late august. we also did move up the first debate because normally they don't start until october. we did make that move. but remember, i have often thought that jim baker, who was of course the grand dame of debates for ronald reagan, said

debates have a way of freezing the campaign for a week. for a couple days prior to the debate, the candidates are working their books, doing their studying. then you have the debate. for two or three days afterwards, everyone analyzes the debate so you take them off the campaign trail. we felt the system that we had for so long now, at least since we have been doing it since 1988, of three and one, one vice presidential debate was the better way to go. >> let me ask about the third party issue. you have a threshold of 15%. but we will have a bit of a conundrum this year. i think there will be a collective 15% in the polling for minor party candidates. the two, green party and libertarian. one may not be at 15%. gary johnson is at 11%. combined, third party candidates will make up 15%. are you at all considering about altering that threshold that it still has to be an individual it's 15% rather than if two candidates combine? >> well, we have laid out the

criteria and it is 15% and that would apply to an individual candidate who is otherwise constitutionally eligible. i think that will hold. but i think you are correct, we have seen very strong interest, particularly governor johnson, also jill stein, the green party candidate. and they are building support. if they get to 15%, the commission made it very clear they will pass the criteria point and we would extend an invitation to them. but i don't think you can kind of add up a variety of other players and different parties to get to that 15% number. >> i guess more on that, at when point, when do they have to prove their 15% threshold? >> we take a look usually about a week before the first debate. it's the first time we look at it and whoever passes 15%, their vice president is automatically in the vice presidential debate which is number two in the order of the four. then again, we will look at it again before the second presidential debate. >> you are not guaranteeing all

three. what you are saying is it is only a guarantee for one of each? >> that's correct. we have to look at it each time. >> okay. you guys, good luck. trying to get everybody together on that debate stage, that's your next challenge. appreciate it. we'll be right back. ♪ ♪ take on any road with intuitive all-wheel drive. the nissan rogue, murano and pathfinder. now get 0% apr for up to 72 months, plus $500 bonus cash.

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a time zone clarification here. a few minutes ago we told you the president is going to address the officer-involved shootings in louisiana and

minnesota at 12:35 when he arrives in warsaw. that is technically true if you live in warsaw. it will be 12:35 warsaw time which in this case will be 6:35 eastern time. which means you will hear from the president in the next hour. that does it for us tonight. we'll be back tomorrow with more "mtp daily." stay with us. "with all due respect" starts now and we will be covering the president. i'm john heilemann. >> i'm mark halperin. with all due respect to donald trump there's no wall that can keep this out. >> there was a mosquito. i don't want mosquitos around me. i don't like mosquitos. >> lots to cover tonight. we will start with a dramatic day on capitol hill where james comey, director of the fbi, was grilled over several hours by the republicans on the house oversight and government reform committee about comey's recommendation this week not to charge hillary clinton