[ chanting ] 100 people were arrested saturday night against protest against police brutality in st. paul and in baton rouge, louisiana, 30 arrested,

including ray mckesson who has become a voice for the "black lives matter" movement. they returned to the streets following an emotionally and distressed video after back to back killings in the hands of police and following a lone gunman that left five dead. good morning. i'm joy reid and this is "am joy." >> we are following the guidelines among policing, politics and race. >> the worst attack on law enforcement in our history and in our country since 9/11. >> we echo the words of president obama yesterday when he stated that because black lives matter, it does not mean blue lives do not matter. >> this was a non-violent, peaceful protest, intended to bring about a better world. >> i do blame former "black lives matter" protest, last night was peaceful but others

have not been. >> members of "black lives matter" are refusing to be drawn into the blame game. they will hold two marched today in d.c. to protest the police shooting death of alton sterling, philando castile and others. and a separate prayer vigil are planned. the vigil at african-american war memorial in our capital. and joining me is our guests. thank you all for being here. alicia, i will start with you. the idea that members of black lives matter are not backing down from these protests, we did see after two police officers were gunned down in new york the protests wain amid national calls to not do it out of respect for the death of the police officers. why are these marches, in your view, going forward today. >> i think they are going forward because i think the movement owe moves on and

carries on. it is impossible to grieve the loss of life and to also fight for the system and the society that we deserve to see. and i think you've been seeing that over the last couple of days. >> and we do have some new on air to play for our viewers and our panel. we received from kare, the affiliate in nbc, and this is the scanner audio of the police stop from philando castile and his girlfriend pulled over resulting in his shooting death. i want to play the first part of the scanner audio that talks about why police officers in their view were stopping the two. please listen. >> [ inaudible ]. >> the two occupants just looked like people that were involved in a robbery. the driver looks more like one of our suspects, because of the live -- [ inaudible ]. >> tamika, i don't know how well

you could hear the audio and the officer said they look like a couple of robbery suspects saying the driver looks like one of our suspects, just because of the wide-set nose. yesterday we talked about falcon height where's this stop took place, it is a predominantly white area and a suburb of st. paul, what do you make of that. >> it sounds like trayvon martin all over again. we are looking at people and deciding that just because of your make-up and the fact that your skin is black, which is ultimately the discussion that needs to be had, that you somehow are a criminal and our police officers have that mentality at times as well as citizens, just people like george zimmerman. so we're in a society where the black life is in danger at all times because people have preconceived ideas which stem from systemic racism that exists and puts our lives in jeopardy and in danger all of the time.

>> and matt, when we heard about the fill ando kist he'lcastillo pulling them over it was said to be because of a broken taillight and the photos -- casting doubt, quite frankly, on whether or not there was a broken taillight but that is what they were being told they are being stopped for. and what do we make that they were being false identified as robbery suspects and that might have been the reason for the -- >> it doesn't change one iota the lousy conduct of the police men at the scene. if you watch the video and watch the aftermath, a man bleeding to death and people consoling the police and not the family that has been brutalized. so i see some people using this as an excuse. saying there is more justification. it is not just that. the conduct in the moment. one of the great tragedies of in week is that the dallas police department was the target of

executio execution-style murder. dallas is leading the country in these type of reforms about deescalating use of force moments and not have the itchy trigger finger. so this does nothing to the fact that the conduct of the police at the moment was just abysmal. >> and i want to put one more piece of the scanner on the air, this is the first time we are playing it on our air but the next set of audio that you will hear is the officers calling in the fact that this shooting had taken place. take a listen. >> shots fired. [ inaudible ]. >> you just heard it? you just heard the shots fired? >> [ inaudible ]. >> copy, shots fired. do you need medics? >> [ inaudible ]. >> copy -- >> one female taken into custody, driver -- at

gunpoint -- >> and you could hear the level of adrenalin you could hear in the call and in just watching the video that was live streamed on facebook by the girlfriend of philando castile, you saw how terrified the police officers seems. and when we thought this was a stop about a broken taillight, it was out of balance because the idea is all of these contacts are coming with people -- i mean this gentleman himself, castille, had been stopped 56 times for violations and wracked up $6,000 in hawk to the state when you talked about, matt, this overcontact with people as a way to sort of use citizens as a piggy bank and he was subjected to that. so what does this tell you, the number one and the level of fear that officers are exhibiting toward an african-american man and woman and number two, the number of times that philando castile had been stopped and now them being branded a suspect just because essentially they were two black people in a

majority white neighborhood. >> we had this conversation two years ago with ferguson and one of the things that we learned there or those paying close attention to this, in too many communities, especially poor communities, but the locals are being used as a cash cow for police departments who have power to seize your stuff and take it and pocket it themselves even if you haven't committed a crime. the incentives in the power structure -- take race out tv and just talk about the power that local police have, it is a great way for people who are actually racist to advance themselves. but more importantly it is about how people can abuse power at the hands of the least vulnerable in society and those are the reformers we need to go after and sadly i think this week has killed federal criminal justice reform which had looked so promising six months ago. >> go ahead. >> and the same thing applies here in new york city where you are dealing with broken window policies and that is why

activists are adamant in dealing with the mayor and the police commission to stop that policy from being in place and it puts police overpolicing communities like cigarettes and celling cds and not police work and building relationships rather than stopping people for small infractions which is not happening in other communities. where folks may be doing the same things, riding bicycles on street -- on sidewalks, not wearing helmets, those type of things but they are not getting the tickets. in our community, little things and we are constantly being overpoliced and that is an issue but we deal with the situation with the mayor and the police commissioner say we are crazy and we need to have decency for police officers and not look where it needs to be for us, those being oppressed. >> and there is a certain irony,

i would say, in members of the government calling upon citizens who are members of "black lives matter" or affiliated with groups that associate themselves with hashtag "black lives matter" to stand down in protesting of what is abuse by the government because the police at the end of the day are the government. >> i think that is right. an it is a huge contradiction. on the one hand, we're saying we want to stop the loss of life. but certainly it seems like we're valuing in lives over others. even in situations like this. i don't recall ever hearing, right, a call for police to stand down when on the other ends of their guns are poor black and brown people. so we have to be clear again that in order for us to value all life equally, we need to treat it equally. and that bhemeans, there are mag sure there are consequences when

police officers kill in our clients in manners that are unjustified which means sure that we are right-sizing funding for policing and making sure it is right-sized up against programs and services needed in our communities to address problems. and we also need to make sure, again, that there is some oversight by communities of policing and police officers. >> and matt, one of the other ironies of -- tragic irony of what we're seeing come out of minneapolis and baton rouge and dallas is that you've also had a lot of agreement, i think less right or libertarian or less agreement that the police are also over -- they have more equipment than they need and it is incredibly military-istic. they are tanks and armor and implements of urban warfare but also incredibly outgunned in a lot of cases by an individual like a trained military -- a

military-trained sniper who could get on a roof and cut down 12 people. so you have this sort of -- how do we answer that dichotomy. the police are over-equipped and under-equipped, i think the police are outgunned very rarely. remember the hollywood bank heist and we saw video of them holding the s.w.a.t. and land f -- and lapd for hours and that plus 9/11 which created programs of weapons transfers. it is really rare for there to be a criminal training with weaponry that outstrips the local police weaponry. i don't think that happens very often. what happens -- we've used the phrase military of police and watching the post, they have written books about this, and you hear complained about that term from the military because they say we have use of force

regulations here and we're conscious about the way that we use these things. a lot of times local police departments aren departments aren't as well-trained as the military is, which is a terrible irony. we have to get rid of the us versus them. and this exists in police and in protesters where people were hucking re bar at cops. the president said this morning and he is right before this, if you are going to demonize police you're going to lose an argument and you will be wrong so we have to be careful what we talk about and identify what we could change which is the power structures that you could talk about and what dumb laws shouldn't be used to shake-down communities. >> and i think also the president said something that is very important. it is good for police -- for there to be better police community regulations and safer for the police officers and the

community so we all have an interest in fixing this and ensuring, not saying we want police officers to die, we just want to stop black men and women from dying. >> indeed. and alicia garza, what should we look to see from the "black lives matter" movement in the coming weeks? >> i think what we'll continue to see is folks marching, protesting, and organizing for a better world. and we'll start to see more clear articulation of what we want to see and how we think we get there. and again i think it is the three points. it is the issue of right-sizing funding for policing and in particular for the weapons that they are using in our communities. it is also absolutely about accountability and transparency. we cannot continue to have people killed and have there be no consequences. and then finally, i think it is absolutely about making sure that there is oversight. that the police are not policing themselves. that there is a coming together

of those who are protecting and serving communities being accountable to the communities that they serve. i think that could get us a long way. >> thank you all on that. we'll be back on the show. thank you. we'll have you back and again if you will be so good as to come back. thank you. stay right there. we'll have the latest on the investigation out of dallas, next. ♪ take on the unexpected with a car that could stop for you. nissan safety shield technologies, available in the altima, sentra and maxima. now get 0% apr for up to 72 months, plus $500 bonus cash. ♪ and i make dog chow in denver, (vcolorado.e's nick one of my fondest memories of khloe is the day we got her. i knew right there she was gonna be a great dog. khloe's a big influence on the family. she loved lincoln from the start.

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>> do i feel there will be copycats here? >> here? i'm sorry. i don't know. i don't fear anything any more. >> let's get the latest on the investigation out of dallas with nbc's tammy lightner who is on the scene. tammy, what is going on where

you are? >> reporter: i'm about two blocks from where the actual shooting happened and this entire area is still shut down. this is the dallas area business district. it is essentially the heart of dallas. people cannot come or go. i do have good news today. another police officers has been released from the hospital. her name is misty mcbride, she is a dart officer and she's been with the department for five years. the two other injured dart officers were previously released, that is omar cannon and jesus quintana. and all three dart officers have been released from the hospital. there are still other dallas police officers hospitalized and as you could imagine, emotions are high out there and yesterday there was a moment when things were tense outside of the police headquarters. there was a report of a suspicious person and we were out there and we saw all of the officers get into a position and they were focused on the a parking garage and they searched

on foot with canine and helicopter and in the end they didn't find a suspicious person. but as you could imagine, emotions are high and things are tense and obviously there are fear among mongs people of a cop -- fear amongst people of a copycat. >> thank you for joining us. and now to jacob rascon at the community headquarters. how is the community coping with all that has occurred. >> reporter: they are really conflicted. we've seen dozens upon dozens of people come to the memorial and we know from the notes and flowers that many hundreds of people have come since the shooting started. most of them don't know the officers or the protesters. they simply feel the pain, they say, of the communities. and they are conflicted because the heart goes out to the african-american. one woman said i can't imagine what they go through on a day to day basis when they feel they are slighted by -- in some way

by officers. but then on the other hand, their heart is grieving and in tears for the law enforcement here. and they say they are really devastated and disappointed about all of the hate they are seeing. and then they come out here and see the outpouring of support and it is overwhelming for those who have come. we've seen today boy scout troops come out. we've seen others from churches come out and they pray and leave flowers and the officers who are here as well just standing outside sort of guarding this area, you could tell that they are a little overwhelmed too. you could see the pain on their faces. i talked to some of them. one of them told me, we don't hear every day that people appreciate us and this is a bit overwhelming for us to see. there is a lot going on here and a lot of people who again were

strangers and feel more connected to the community and lawmaker. >> thank you very much. jacob rascon in dallas. and coming up, hillary clinton reaction to the tragedy is part of a long pattern and we'll show you that next. before i had the shooting, burning of diabetic nerve pain, these feet learned the horn from my dad and played gigs from new york to miami. but i couldn't bear my diabetic nerve pain any longer. so i talked to my doctor and he prescribed lyrica. lyrica may cause serious allergic reactions or suicidal thoughts or actions. tell your doctor right away if you have these, new or worsening depression, or unusual changes in mood or behavior. or swelling, trouble breathing, rash, hives, blisters,

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i know that just by saying all of these things together, i may upset some people. i'm talking about criminal justice reform the day after a horrific attack on police officers. i'm talking about courageous, honorable police officers just a few days after officer-involved killings in louisiana and minnesota. i'm bringing up guns in a country where merely talking about comprehensive background checks and getting assault weapons off our streets gets you

demonized. but all of these things can be true at once. >> hillary clinton is no stranger to the complexities of supporting police or criticizing incidents of police violence. at the start of her career 16 years ago, clinton found her voice while speaking out about the most notorious cases of police brutality. >> as a mother, mostly sunny deall -- i cannot imagine the pain and grief over the loss of your son and i know that your efforts to seek justice is our effort as well. >> back in the year 2000 hillary clinton spoke out about the shooting death of an unarmed african migrant shot 41 times by police. >> things like this shouldn't be happening. >> at the time clinton was in a heating race in new york taking on the tough on crime mayor rudy

giuliani. the issue took on added significance after the fatal police shooting of patrick dors, an off-duty security guard. giuliani was set on vilifying him and ordered them to unseal his juvenile record. >> i'm trying to get the facts out to balance the situation in which there is a knee-jerk reaction to blame everything on the police. >> giuliani suggested that he was no alter boy, but that is what he was. a former alter boy. clinton went on the offensive, criticizing giuliani's response. >> [ inaudible ]. >> giuliani began dropping in the polls and eventually dropped out of the u.s. senate race altogether citing health reasons. hillary clinton beat giuliani's

replacement de blasio to become the first lady elected to public source thanks to the overwhelming support of african-american community. and as black men like sterling and castile continue to die at the hands of police, clinton could attempt to make political history one more time. >> up next, louisiana's new law that makes an attack on a police officers a hate crime. don't go away. let me show you something better. the capital one venture card. with venture, you earn unlimited double miles on every purchase... not just...(dismissively) airline purchases. every purchase. everywhere. every day. no really! double miles on all of them! what's in your wallet? searchingcan you help?used car? start with the millions for sale at the new carfax.com! show me cars with no accidents.

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>> the grief was palpable on wednesday as the family of alton sterling reacted to the death of the father of five after she was shot and killed on tuesday by baton rouge police, sterling, after he was killed by baton rouge police. this is the first officer-involved shooting in louisiana to attract national attention since the state passed the new law designating an attack on a police officers a hate crime. the legislation named the blue rights matter bill was signed by democratic governor john bell edwards in may. the law makes louisiana the first state where hate crime protection reserved for racial minorities and other groups apply to police officers and firefighters but it may not be the last because this week in the wake of the fatal shooting of police officers in dallas, one major police unit is calling on the justice department to investigate the unit as a hate crime. and joining me on that, editor of magazine, jamil lemieux and

april ryan. and i'll go to you first on this, april, you are there for us out of washington, d.c. how likely is it that the justice department would consider investigating the case of the officers as a hate crime and also do we have any updates on whether or not the alton sterling case is being investigated by the justice department? and if so, what is the progress of that is. >> joy, they are actively looking at these cases. they are very much aware. social media has played a part when it comes to the executive branch and president obama was watching them and found out and as well as the justice department, they saw the horrific videos to show what was going on and they are actively watching to see what is going on and so there is more information to come on that. but when it comes to the issue of hate crimes, and what happened at the horrific

incident in dallas to the police officers, the federal hate crime law allows for people to file federal hate crimes against those who violate the rights of people by race, gender, sexual orientation or by sex and religion, but when it comes to the police officers, what they will look at it, it cannot be done as a group of police officers, but they will look at the race -- the issue of race playing a part. they are violating the rights of the officers by the issue of race because they were white officers and the dead -- the dead suspect said he was going after the white officers. >> he said, according to what the officers are telling us, we don't -- there are a lot of things to unpack here. we have, according to the police officers, jamila, the statement from the suspect who is now dead who cannot be interviewed said he was there to kill white police officers.

it would be helpful if there is audio. you think they would need that in a hate crime investigation if this were to go that far. and you a lot of in sinuations that the dead suspect had an affinity for quote, unquote, black power and for public enemy. that is being bled into it and that is where i feel we get into a really dangerous gray area. >> absolutely. since the black power movement of the 1960s, there have been a willful explanation of what black lives matter from the media and the government and advocating for black power and for freedom and for social justice and equality for black people and doing it guided by sense of racial pride, saying being black is not a bad thing. it is beautiful. we love our blackness and our race and it is motivated by hate for any other group of people and it is hard to remove hate from the act of deciding to kill

someone because of their race, because they are a police officer but black power is not about hatred. so we are now going to introduce that, the concept of black power into prosecuting hate crimes, for me it is curious and it is dangerous and sets a resident that concern -- precedent that concerns me that there are people chanting for black power and calling for black power and we know nothing about what happened in the room other than what we've heard from police officers. there is no audio. there is no proof to be examined or to be interrogated and we've seen over and over again they are taking the word of the law enforcement officers unchecked and that has been dangerous. >> and we also have markers in this person's history that the reason he was discharged from the arm has to do with gender or sexually related violence. but there is so much to unpack. but i want to read what the

anti-defamation league has said about the law signed into law. the adl strongly believes that the list of characteristics included in hate crimes law should remain limited to characteristics and those qualities that can or should not be changed. do you see a danger in applying hate crime legislation to a profession like policing? >> one thing is that in most states, in most jurisdictions, police attack -- attacking a police officer gives you enhanced penalties. so we're trying to fix a problem that is not necessarily broken here in terms of enhanced penalties. for me, part of this illustrates the limitation of hate crimes legislation to begin with because you will get inevitably into the question of how do you belong to a class that gets extra protection and when do you not? and then the other problem which is serious is that it ends up becoming the proof -- the proof

becomes free speech on what are otherwise -- we're going to try dylan matthews twice. one as hate crimes -- >> dylann roof. >> sorry. too many dylans out there. and not only is there a double jeopardy question, but why. he will serve life in prison regardless of this. most times things in hate crimes there is an enhancer that allows you to make your case much more strongly to a jury on the existing crime levels which is murder in this case. so i think it illustrates the problems with the existing usage of hate crimes out there and you'll have all of these stupid squabbling over blue lives need extra protection on hate crimes. they don't need the extra protection. they get extra protection. including in louisiana where you get 30 days -- an officer could get 30 days extra time to be interrogated for a use of force. so it is laws like that -- >> i think that is the point,

jamilah , you have situations where police officers bill of rights that exist in places like maryland and louisiana already, you already have extra layers of protection for officers in which if they shoot and kill someone they have tremendous latitude in terms of giving a statement. you go to the state of missouri where the police officers who killed michael brown never gave a statement and bagged his own evidence. there is so much latitude given to the police officers. and they are the state -- they are the government and adding extra protection and making hate crimes on top of it, it just seems -- what do you think. >> it is mean-spirited. it is absolutely insulting and infuriating, to appropriate the language lives matter. so this is coming directly from black lives matter. this is not something that we have reason to believe there is need to add extra protection to the already protected class.

but the protester is saying we can prove -- not we feel, but we can prove that people who look like us and share the experiences have been disenfranchised and killed by police who have been protected and to now say we need to give them an extra layer of protection using the same language and we're not going to do anything to treat police crimes against citizen hate crimes, that is merely impossible to charge a police officer with a hate crime even when you have language like it is the wide nose. those guys always get away. it is the guys in the white shirt. the language that they've used when we look at -- the recordings when the body camera doesn't fall off. when we look at the video and how they talk about the young people, these people that they profile. it is just -- it is -- heartbreaking. >> they are open civil rights investigation by the federal government. hate crimes are not used but the justice department does bring some. >> very rare. >> there is almost no success

record. we were just talking about the deallo case in the break before and you look at cases like that that is ripe for federal intervention. april, i want to go back to you because npr created a chart that shows police officers killed in the line of duty from 1997 to now and when you see this shock in dallas it is easy to believe there is an ongoing threat to police officers but it has become safer in this country since the 1970s for a lot of reasons partly because overall crime has gone down and the epidemic and there are reasons that we have become safer but policing is not at the level -- let's say there are not as many police officers killed by citizens as close to as many killed by police. so in the view of the obama administration who is really sort of laboring to walk this incredibly fine line of support

for law enforcement and also wanting to have these reforms, do they feel that they are being derailed by this moment in dallas that really sort of takes people's attention away from the criminal justice reforms and makes something like this, this quote, unquote, blue lives matter, to get congress behind laws like that. >> in the last couple of years, whether the black people killed by police or police officers being killed by someone or a black person, the white house has made it very clear and they are trying to walk a very delicate line to say we, indeed, support law enforcement in this nation. and yet at the same time, there is still a problem here that there is some bad policing. the vast majority, and they've said this over and over again, the vast majority of policing is great, wonderful. we look to them. they were the first responders at 9/11. they are the ones who you call when the cat runs up the tree sometimes.

they are the ones that you call when you are in need -- something is going on and something is wrong and your car may be broken down on the side of the road. they are there to protect us but there is something also wrong on the other side when you have the large numbers of african-americans who die at the hands of police. twice that of the number than white people. so the problem is right now, our society, this country, in a lot of reports that i'm seeing, we're seeing one or the other. it is more one than the other. there are two equal problems right here and yes, you support police but with your full heart and mind and body. and not only that, many of us are related or married to or know police officers. so that is a given. but there is a peace that is here that is bad policing and that is something that the white house is trying to deal with and unequivocally saying we support policing but we also have to root out the bad elements and i.e., that is why they are

impl impleamenting the bod -- implementing the body camera. >> when they don't fall off. thank you. appreciate you. coming up, when the body cameras, when they don't fall off, are they a solution to policing. that is coming up next. take on the unexpected with a car that could stop for you. nissan safety shield technologies, available in the altima, sentra and maxima. now get 0% apr for up to 72 months, plus $500 bonus cash. ♪ 80% try to eat healthy, yet up to 90% fall short in getting key nutrients from food alone. let's do more. add one a day men's gummies. complete with key nutrients plus b vitamins to help convert food into fuel. one a day.

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oral-b. know you're getting a superior clean. i'm never going back to a manual brush. while in spain this morning, president obama spoke about the ongoing protests against police violence and had some advice for the "black lives matter" movement. >> maintaining a truthful and serious and respectful tone is going to help mobilize american society to bring about real change. and that is our ultimate objective. >> up next, are police body cameras really the answer when it comes to holding police

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we will be comprehensive in taking into account in and all evidence, including full audio and video from both officers' body cameras and dashboard cameras and any other video we have obtained. >> authorities in baton rouge, louisiana, are promising a thorough investigation of alton sterling on tuesday but they might not get answers from body cameras. officials say that both body cameras became dislodged during the altercation with sterling and that although they kept recording, the footage, may not be, quote, as good as we hoped for. body cameras were supposed to be a new and powerful tool in police accountability but the baton rouge incident have put them under scrutiny. and joining me now congressee

manuel cleaver. thank you for being here. the case of alton sterling and the claims by the officers that their body cameras became dislodged and the video isn't as useful. in the instances we've seen where there is either audio not engaged or other issues with either body cams or dash cams, does it raise any doubt in your mind that body cameras will actually solve the problem of excessive use of force by police? >> well, it is not a panacea, but i think whenever there is a problem, the first step at correcting that problem is creating awareness. and the body cameras represent, i think, one step. and that is that we are now aware that there is a -- a problem when it comes to the volatility between minority communities and police and we've got to do something about it. the body cameras, i think, will

have better and better and better technology as time goes on. but there was a cambridge study in england that shows that body cameras reduced the use of force by 50%. and of course, the d.o.j. has also done studied. there is no way that we're going to solve this problem exclusively with the use of body cameras. there are a lot of other things that will be required. but body cameras, make no mistake about it, are critically important right now. and each police department will have to decide the standards by which those body cameras will be used. but the problem, too, joy, is that we didn't realize when we started this, we were able to get $25 million in the budget last year and i want to give thanks to john boehner, because when we met with him, he said straight out, i support body cameras and we passed it on and

we were able to get it in the budget. the one thing we didn't understand at the time was that the storage of millions of volumes of footage from police cameras, which has to be retained for about 30 days at least, will cost millions and millions of dollars a year. so the hardware is not expensive. it is the storage that is keeping many of the police departments from getting it. and the police departments that are getting it, are setting their own standards. what happened in baton rouge is a little suspicious. but we give everybody the benefit of the doubt. but i think having both police officers say their body cameras were dislodged is -- is going to require some thorough investigation. >> and in the case of people who are increasingly filming interactions of other people with police and there is a big move by organized groups to have people use their cell phone to film interactions between police and civilians and you've seen some in some cases pretty aggressive moves by police to

try to dissuade the use of that video or to make that video less -- less, i guess, aggressive toward them. in the case of fill ando sterling, his girlfriend said they took her phone and threw it and didn't realize it was still regarding because it continued to record and broadcast and you have incidents where police are not open to the idea of being filmed and complained about being film and how would the federal government if they instituted a federal body camera program that came with accountability to the federal government ensured that the video from the body cameras would then be accessible by either the public or by federal investigators? >> well, the money that we were able to get, the $25 million, which is not a lot of money for the country, is being administered by the department of justice. and there are regulation that cities must agree to in order to get the funding. but for the most part, the local

communities, the local police departments, police boards will have to establish the rules. and i think one of the things maybe are going to need to look at now with in terms of what the justice department will require is that there are some things that communities will have to agree to before they could get the grant. and one of those things is, frankly, that police cannot turn off body cameras. they cannot in any way have a policy where police officers could actually take the personal property of a citizen that -- the personal property being a telephone, where they are filming what is going on. and i think it is in the best interest of police and the public if we have a full view of what is going on. now i've run into a lot of african-americans and latinos over the last few days that are saying, look, you start talking about body cameras and you have money in the budget but the body

cameras don't result in convictions. and as i said earlier, that is not the number one problem. the number one problem is the problem of race. >> yeah, indeed. and that is where we have to solve it. >> and absolutely. and it starts with prosecutors and police. i wish we weren't out of time, but congressman cleaver, always good to talk to you. thank you for being here. and in the next hour, we've one week away from the republican convention and trump has yet to pick a running mate. we'll have an update next. and us, we'll be right there with you, helping with the questions you need answered to get your brand new business started. we're legalzoom and we've already partnered with over a million new business owners to do just that. check us out today to see how you can become one of them. legalzoom. legal help is here. but can your multivitamin to be healthy. do more for your immune health? now one a day has the first multivitamin with probiotics to support the 70%

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republican convention, donald trump has been courting many different running mate contenders. so much so, there has been news almost every day. it is like he is trying to steal up a news cycle or two to cover up his tweet. so if you are using the veep-stakes, let's go to the big board. as i've been telling you, the scuttlebutt that i'm hearing and what might happen is that he might pick newton gingrich. why would he pick him. because he would love to run the country while trump is hanging out at trump tower. that is what trump has been saying since march when you started to hear the speculation it could be gingrich. but since then we started to hear that maybe not so much. so let's go to what happened in june. in june, we start with the month of judge curiel. trump started off the move by insulting the judge.

before the month of june had begun, there was talk that maybe governor martinez of new mexico might be on the short list. why would you want her? she is a woman and latino and could fix some of the donald trump demographic problem but once that came out and she backed away and said she didn't want to go to the convention and suddenly trump is insulting her. dit we with governor sandoval. and for the exact same route. the curiel news is out there and we hear about governor sandoval but he is not interested in being the trump veep either. later in the month of june, the scuttlebutt turns to gingrich and rick scott, self-funding $70 million into his own campaign, could had a help donald trump. sure and a state he needs to win. and chris christie, the best friend that donald trump could have and standing behind him for hours looking uncomfortable. maybe a side kick is what trump

wants. these look like realistic picks for trump but they might not be the most scintillating and helpful politically in the minds of republican beltway insiders who want him to pick somebody who will help his demographic. so what happens in july. you hear about tom cotton. young, up and coming, republican on the move. from the state of arkansas that might give donald trump some credibility on issues of war and peace and you want that in a month of july when donald trump is doing things like, i don't know, tweeting out pictures of hillary clinton with what looks like a tar of david -- a star of david over piles of money. distract from that and start talking about tom cotton and mike pence. a beltway insider, someone that movement conservatives would actually like. but he is also somebody, mike pence, the current sitting governor of indiana. why would he want to give up re-election to join the donald trump campaign. it doesn't make sense but it certainly helps you

out with that news cycle. later in the month of july and you start hearing about joni ernst. she is the kind of politician on the move who might be willing to take a golf with trump because it helps the party and makes the party look big. she's a woman from an important swing state and takes a lunch with trump and that is in the early month of july around the fourth. and then you go to bob corker. a team player, in a safe seat in tennessee. not a state you need to swing but somebody who might give you credibility as a beltway insider. he takes a golfing outing with donald trump. that keeps the news cycle going over the fourth of july while the crazy tweet is out and talk about him picking somebody credible like bob corker. and then joni ernst and corker by the sixth of july take themself out of contention. was that a real courtship with donald trump or were they helping the party out by getting themselves into the news cycle? and where does that leave us. right back here with our good friend newton leroy gingrich,

the guy actively lobbying for the job and the guy who makes sense for donald trump. the perfect side kick and the guy who will governor while he's at trump tower. we just had a big news cycle to keep you off of the nazi tweets and thinking about trump governing, we're find out. and we'll go to our panel on that in just a moment. before we go, let's listen to gingrich speaking for himself. >> newt has been my friend for a long time. and i'm not saying anything, and i'm not telling you anything, but i could tell you in one form or another newt gingrich is going to be involved with our government, that i can tell you. >> and as i magically reappear in another location with still high heels on because i wore them running over here, that was not gingrich, that is trump. and joining me now is jonathan capehart of the washington post and joan walsh and in nashville, david french and in baltimore

april ryan is still with us. david french, i'm go to you first on this and first to confirm that you are not going to be the running mate of donald trump nor the nominee when we get to cleveland and confirm that for me, sir. >> i would be the furthest thing from donald trump's running mate. i dislike donald trump so i briefly considered running against him as an independent. so no, that is not happening. >> what do you make of my theory that the courtship with people like corker and joni ernst was really for us, it was for the consumption of the news cycle and the people were never really considering taking the job? >> i think there is a lot to that. because both of those individuals are too smart to take that job. running with donald trump and what is looking to be -- and he is setting himself up for a historic loss right now, is a great way to kill a promising political career and i think for bob corker is a great way to find yourself getting primaried.

he is a safe senate seat and not in a safe seat versus fellow republicans who would be very disappointed to see him throw in his lot with a -- a man like donald trump. >> and jonathan, my theory of the case is that what donald trump needs and the reason i think your short list gets down to gingrich, is that you need somebody who is in the sun set of their political career, rather than on the upswing, somebody with nothing to lose. like somebody who could write you a check or newt gingrich who isn't going to run for anything else and spend the last part of his career running with you or chris christie who will be the ultimate side kick and your attack dog but won't threaten or challenge you. >> and all of those things make sense. with governor scott and chris christie you get a governor and someone who knows how powers work in government.

and with gingrich, he knows how the federal government works at the highest level of power. so in that regard, i think you are absolutely right in zeroing in on those three people. the thing about newton leroy gingrich that i find fascinating, if he is offered and he accepts, it will be fascinating because in aspen, i was at the session he did when he talked about what he happened if he got the call. he said two things. he would to have to talk to his wife about it seriously and then have a serious conversation with donald trump where he would want to know for sure that donald trump would be -- a supporters and push a reform agenda in washington. because speaker gingrich is all about reform. but then he said something else that i thought was very interesting and the word he used jumped out at me and he said, and i want to be assured that he has the discipline to follow through. one thing we know, trump does not have and has not shown is discipline. >> and i think that is probably one of the things that might

both make newt gingrich not want it but make him want it more. the more he assumes that president trump would be, the more power he would have. you are talking about dick cheney level of the presidency in theory unless trump saw himself as the main reformer and governing person. >> and trump thinks about donald trump. and with donald trump as president of the united states, with the ultimate power in his mind, i wonder if anyone in the vice president seat would actually have as much power as the last two vice presidents -- the last three vice presidents we've had. >> i want to go really quickly and i'll come to you this one joan on the question of mike pence. because he is the other one that confused me and i thought to myself this might be a new cycle play because this guy is up for re-election of governor of indiana and a very important state for republicans. it did go to barack obama in 2008. so it has the potential to swing. and why would he give that up in order to run with what a lot of

people like david french and republicans believe, but robert costa was on with me on hard ball this last week and he made a case for why pence mie may -- may want it. >> he is a rebel rouser and being part of the conservative crowd in washington and hasn't loved being governor and so being on a ticket and serving out the remainder of his term, pence friends say that is a fine option. >> so the idea that he wants the executive role but he wants it in washington. >> i just don't buy it. i really don't. i never contradict robert costa but i think it is a high-risk strategy for anyone with a political future. i think they are all going through the motions. it helps them. it would hurt them to run, joy. but it helps them to be mentioned and to be thought about at that level of stateship, that this would be considered to be vp. it flatters and helps them all.

we haven't talked about general michael flynn who robert costa has mentioned as a possibility and he is very interesting. trump apparently is -- not set on him but is really pushing himself. he fell out with president obama and let go and come out a harsh critic and very close to putin which could make him appeal -- >> to trump. >> yeah. but i think it would square the re -- scare the rest of the country. and i was going to push him hard but he came out on abc as pro-choice so that might kill him. >> and the interesting thing about flynn, he is a former member of the military. with a president like donald trump, he is looking for a side-kick, as you mentioned earlier, with a former member of the military as your vice president, i could see trump imposing himself on his vp. wait, i am the commander-in-chief. >> and hold that over him. >> april, i want to get you in

on this and one of the things that you do hear is there is a ryan-wing of the push on trump to find somebody who fixes the party fears, to talk to martinez and consider brian sandoval and consider a woman like joni ernst, to sort of do those considerations, do you have any reporting that there actually is a push on trump to push away from a newt gingrich or not sign him up right away and talk to the other demographic picks? >> well i've got a lot of good stuff for you. one, we forgot about the name former secretary of state condi rice. she sut th-- shut that down rig away. she would bring foreign policy to the table. she shut it down right away. but when it comes to donald trump, and i talked to some conservatives, i've talked to people in the rnc, what needs to happen is the unification of the party. and what needs to be strengthened is the foreign policy and the policy on foreign

policy. he is a businessman and i believe this vice president would play a stronger role in helping to advise and guide more so than playing a second fiddle to donald trump. i think this vice president will be helping. but when it comes to donald trump and trying to brings things together and trump is in dire need of minority support to be able to win the presidency. and the republican party has been making that clear to me over and over again. and i am hearing rumblings and look for this, i'm hearing about rumblings about ohio. not just focused on cleveland for the convention, there could be an eye on cincinnati. cincinnati is where the naacp convention is happening and it is happening at the same time as the rnc convention. so you might see trump appear at the naacp convection. >> that would be interesting. the cuyahoga county and the ohio

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hillary clinton is ramping up her verse for a running manhunt and held meetings at her washington home on thursday with aides involved in the selection process. the next step is face-to-face with the people on her short list. the list is open to endless speculation which i love but when is the good question. here is the possibilities. option one, do it it this week to wipe out what is left of e-mail-gate. she would roll it out on thursday when she campaigns with senator tim kaine in northern virginia. option two, try to steal from donald trump's thunder and announce during the republican convention.

the nominees lay low during the other party's convention but we know this election is anything but usual. or option three, wait headline her own convection in 15 days. my panel is back with me. jonathan, what do you think is the most likely, given the clpt campaign sort of the way they think? >> you know, each one of those options, i could see them gravitating towards each one. it is very smart. i can't zero in on any -- on any of them. i'm more focused on who is she going to pick. because i think the timing doesn't matter as much as it is who the person is going to be. >> i think the timing matters some. i think that doing it this coming week steps on what we think is going to be an endorsement from bernie sanders which isy is great -- which is great for her. do that if you thought the republican was going to be a big wow for the party but it is probably a big disaster for the parry so why do you want to step

on that news. >> right. >> and maybe she wants to wait until she sees who trump picks. >> that's the thing, david french, if you do have, my guess could be wrong and it could not be newt gingrich, it could be somebody flashy and it changes our calculation. is there a vice presidential pick on the democratic side that conservatives might be tempted by, even if they don't like hillary clinton that much, and obviously if they don't like donald trump, is there somebody that she could pick out and come out and have somebody like you say, oh, okay. >> there is nobody she could pick where somebody like me would say, oh, okay she could pick somebody moderate to lean could be interested. but she has a choice here that she's going to need to make and one is is she going full progressive with elizabeth warren which might square some of the moderates who are really skeptical of donald trump into the donald trump camp or is she going to reach out and continue this more recent effort she's

made to say i'm the adult in the room and pick somebody who matches that profile which could reassure a lot of voters and tip her over from the favorite to the prohibitive favorite. and what kind of tolerance for risk does she have in this general election. >> and the thing is, april, that calculation that you just heard from david french does play into when she does it. if she steps on the thursday speech by donald trump and you are not exciting people with the tim kaine pick but you are just saying oh. and if it is elizabeth warren and it is a big wow pick, maybe she does step on thursday. give us a tea leaf. >> from this morning, i understand the list is narrowed. they won't tell me to how many but the list has narrowed. and the last time we were on a couple of weeks ago, right after talking about this tim kaine mania, i got an e-mail from a very high-ranking congressional leader that we all know and

said, i will tell you you are right, but at the same time elizabeth warren is telling me, this is what this leader said, that she has a very, very good chance. she believes that she could be in. so at this point, we really don't know. but one thing we know is that the person will probably be a person that hillary clinton would rely upon to gravitate and pull the people that she has been having a hard time with. so hillary clinton has narrowed her list and everyone is in play at this point in a narrow list. >> david french, very quickly what, is the read on elizabeth warren on the right? >> if you want to motivate people to support donald trump on the right, pick elizabeth warren. >> wow! >> look, if she does this, she is going full progressive. she is going to take some of the waiving conservatives who would never be trump and push them into voting for trump. somebody like me won't vote for trump or vote for hillary but

there are people right now agonizing over this decision. and if she goes with elizabeth warren, it is wow factor all right, on the right and on the left. it will energize the progressive base and energize the conservative base. and does she want to take an election that right now is hers to lose and suddenly start to narrow the gap a little bit to where she goes from a prohibitive favorite to a favorite and then at that point we don't know what the future holds. anything could happen. >> and jonathan is nodding. >> david is absolutely right. look, elizabeth warren looks great on paper for hillary clinton. in the short-term, big bang. everyone would be excited. and by everyone, i mean democrats, people on the left. but in the long-term, i think it fizzles for the very reasons david french is talking about, the people on the republican side, the moderates who can't stand donald trump and are looking for something that they can -- that will make them go

and pull the lever for hillary clinton, and elizabeth warren won't do it. and the person we call not too exciting, governor kaine, would give the leading republican folks some comfort. and the other thing to keep in mind about lelizabeth warren, te big problem for her is the governor of her state is republican. if she were to become vice president of the united states, the democrats lose a seat in the senate. >> and we've talked about the fact that harry reid has gotten on board with it because they could make the system work that she would announce late and only 78 days until the election. >> the last word. >> i'm going to speak up for elizabeth warren here. i know what jonathan and david are saying, but we are the people who pay attention to the ideological details and complexity and the rest of the country hasn't paid that much attention. they are paying attention to trump generally. but when i think -- when middle america hears elizabeth warren,

they might not here the fire brand radical that some of us hear. they might hear someone talking common sense and kitchen-table sense about the way the economy is rigged and some trump people might listen to her how she saw it in her own family. she is a much more appealing speaker than a few years ago. i still think she is in the running. >> and i'll close by saying with the warren side, we learned by bernie sanders, that the left side get frayed when you are talking about the villianry of wall street and people losing job and hope in this economy. when elizabeth warren goes out there and says that the system is stacked against the little guy and wall street is stacking it, people won't want to hear that. but that is my opinion. we'll be back. thank you. but up next, we in the media have a special responsibility on weeks like this and have we lived up to the bar. stay with us.

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it was the good, the bad, and the controversial as new york tab covers and the responses proved we may look at the same images, we are not always seeing the same thing. that was the case on thursday when the new york daily news made this still image from cell phone showing the body of sterling bleeding on the ground shortly after being shot and killed by police in baton rouge. we choose to blur the images for those that might find it disturbing. but that is the point. according to many that applauded the daily news and saying that disturbed is how we should feel by the police actions that cause steri sterling's death. by friday the new york post had its own cover that left many wondering what the paper was trying to provoke. civil war was the image with

police officers lying on the ground where five officers were killed in dallas on thursday night. and a glaring contrast to newsstands on friday when the new york daily news paired their image of the slain officers with the headline saying simply madness. that cover replaced the original one the daily news previewed on thursday on twitter before the shooting in dallas. an african-american boy in the arms of his father looking straight out from the page, accompanied by this question, am i next daddy? we'll critique this week's media headlines of the tragedy when we come back. to avoid long-term injury, seek immediate medical help for an erection lasting more than four hours. stop taking viagra and call your doctor right away if you experience a sudden decrease or loss in vision or hearing. ask your doctor about viagra single packs.

♪uh oh. oh.

henry! oh my. good, you're good. back, back, back. (vo) according to kelley blue book, subaru has the highest resale value of any brand. again. you might find that comforting. love. it's what makes a subaru, a subaru. so i have a question for those that have the t-shirt on. because there are members of the group "black lives matter" that we all know that were out there protesting pigs in a blanket, fry them like bacon. what about the comments of the "black lives matter" that said pigs in a blanket, pigs in a blanket, fry them like bacon. ask them if they denounce that. >> pigs in a blanket, this group

denounces that. [ inaudible ]. i'm not hearing the pigs in a blanket. i haven't heard that. >> joining me now is eric boehlert, from media matters and david french of the national review. and so we played a very contained version of that, eric. but essentially, it was sean hannity browbeating his own reporter and demanding that he ask these "black lives matter" protesters if they are chanting vile things about police and sort of wanting the conversation to go there. while the protesters are like, i've never heard that and that is not why we're here. what is going on here? >> there is the narrative that fox news and the conservative media have been pumping for eight years and began with obama is going to take away your guns. which never happened. and it is creating this fear, almost a race war in america that has not transpired up until now. this is sean hannity who compared "black lives matter" to the klu klux klan and rush was

calling them a terrorist group. there is no fact to support that. and then we have the new york post headline talking about civil war and things. this is beyond sort of trying to score partisan points off a national tragedy, this is spanning ugly rhetoric at a time when you should not be. >> you look at new york post headline, or the drug report headline which is black lives kill. that is drudge, of the most trafficked websites in the country put on the headline and designed to stoke fear, not just of a probably deranged killer, which you should be afraid of, but of "black lives matter" that is a peaceful movement holding marchs with 40,000 people all over the country since 2013. >> absolutely. this fear mongering is decades old. the black panther party of the '60s and the civil rights movement that took a nonpublic approach to demanding civil rights, the idea that black

people are inherently dangerous and filled with a rage and hatred of white people that has to be policed and everyday citizens should be fearful of "black lives matter," it is unfounded. there is a tragedy that happened last week and an unhinged man but no evident that black people will be violent against police officers or in the public. we see the police killings but very rarely see attributeive violence. >> and people are going at the rate -- the picture that they are putting out of the alleged shooter in dallas. but there is a real history with john carlos and tommy smith that is a sacred history to black americans, people in the anti-apartheid and the global justice movement and people don't know that history and they are going right to the fear. and david rich, i want to ask you, on the right, you wright in the intellectual fear of

conservatism but there is a fever swamp wing of -- of any ideology that there is some traffic of conspiracy and it traffics in making black people something to fear. does that worry you? >> well, the black lives kill headline on drudge report, i thought was so far beyond the pale. at the moment that happened, i tweeted it out and said it was pitiful. and i began to look and i gbega to think, as i looked at twitter as the shootings were unfolding in dallas and when you do that it will destroy your faith and the goodness of humanity and i began to look at twitter and realized we are on the press pis here. there is rhetoric coming from both sides that black lives kill was way beyond the pale. and there is language like it is open season on young black men from the police which is beyond the pale. it is not open season. and the question is are we going to look at this and pull back and say it is not 1968.

we're not close to 1968 yet. but if we keep spouting this level of rhetoric, that is the direction we're going to head. and it was particularly disturbing in the next day when we saw a couple of more police ambushes which then brought the number to 11. which is not a huge number, but it is more than in the entire year of 2015. so we face a choice right now, are we going to go for the extreme rhetoric, the click, or pull back, look at this a bit more calmly and take -- go with the evidence leads and respect peaceful dissent on both sides. >> and to that point i want to get now to the question of the new york daily news cover and run of the reasons that i wanted to talk to you so badly this morning. the alton sterling cover, when it came out sean king tweeted it out and it is started to fill up my timeline. and i think in europe people get to see more reality when it comes to war and death. and americans sanity ize the

images and this is showing what happened and showing you that his hands were out at his side. on the other hand, we saw the 15-year-old boy waving for her daddy. i can't watch it in full again it is so heart-breaking. who will see that. and jamilah , i don't know where you were on that cover, but what did you make of that as a media choice. >> it is not a choice i would have made. it is not a choice that i supported. jet magazine, which is the sister magazine to ebony where i work made the decision to run the open casket shows of hill in the issue in 1955 at the request of his mother. who said, i'm a northerner, i was aware that lynchings were taking place in the south and i like many of you looked away until it was my child and i want you to see what this sort of brutality looks like. and it was the inside of the magazine, not the cover, that the mother was involved in this decision. and when this hits the media

before the next of kin have been notified, they are striped of the ability to say i want to see what happened to my loved one or this is not how i want them to be remembered. there are ways to communicate our outrage and grief without you seeing my child, my father with his brains blown out on the cover of a new york newspaper that goes nationally -- internationally. and i think that image was so incredibly graphic. and that is an image i've only seen of black male victims of police violence. we didn't see the sandy hook kids like that or the victims of the pulse nightclub like that. i don't want to see them in that way either. but i think we can communicate the way in which people are being gunned down in this country with a lot of other images from the scenes without having to go that graphic. and it makes me wonder how comfortable are we getting with the image of black male deaths? we pushing the conversation forward or are we getting used to it and becoming desensitized. is that dehumanizing him?

i can't say. >> and at the same time, that is paired with the civil war cover of the new york post which was in -- for different reasons, equally as shocking itious in the daily news, people walk by in new york city without buying the nu-- the newspaper. that is not a choice. i think the newspaper is trying to catch with social media. we've seen killings live on facebook and i think newspapers are trying to deal with that. but the new york post was completely wrong in so many different ways. there is not even a question in terms of a debate when you put in something like that. and there are announced sides who were at war with each other. and again this goes back to ugly right-wing paranoia and also encouragement of the hate. >> and that and demanding that the reporter create divisiveness in front of the protesters he's trying to review. and david french will be back later in the show. and up next, broadway's

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♪ [ applause ] broadway superstar lynmar anda took hi final bow. to the theme of the tv show west wing. the tony award winning musical about hamilton will continue but without the man who created it. the last performance was the hottest ticket in town with some as high as $20,000 on retail sites. among those lucky ticket-holders, "am joy" digital producer alexis scott. and lucky ticket-holder, tell us

what it was like to be in the room. >> it was amazing to be there. from the beginning, people were off the charts. peep were standing up to take pictures of the celebrities that came. j lo and charlie rose and people were standing up and they wouldn't even sit down and take their seats to see those who came to see the last show. >> and we were talking about the sort of following that this play has gotten, really mong very own people. >> the hamill team. tell us about the team. >> it is an internationalco hert of team -- cohort of teams that have pikes of themselves re-enacting the different performances and they stand outside of the show. when i went there last night with my mom there were probably 500 people young people flocking every corner of the block for the glimpse of the stars. and even though the musical director came out and waved -- >> so for those who are dejected and distraught, my whole twitter

time i tweeted i'll never see hamilton, and with this collective distress. what will happen with the show? can people still see it? give us what is the future for hamilton. >> hamilton has a very big future. there are already performances slated in chicago and going to london in 2017 and then a production on the west coast that will have a long life on both sides of the pond. people might be able to see a cast recording. they've recorded two different performances with lynn manuel. they don't know what they will do with the footage but it is huge. >> and then he'll have a huge future ahead of him. >> he is doing muse for the new princess disney movie and written songs for that and will be in the sequel to mary popp s poppins. >> maybe playing dick van dyke. >> we think. >> and anything he does, will be huge. >> he is working with j lo and

if you could put the picture up. >> yes. >> and you know who is branching out, our social media producer. we couldn't do the show without. thank you for being our eyes and ears in hamilton. >> thank you. >> up next, i'll bring back the tanl to talk about what will -- back the panel to talk about what will shape the coming week. stay with us. we're here for you. we're legalzoom, and for over 10 years we've helped families just like yours with wills and living trusts. so when you're ready, start with us. doing the right thing has never been easier. legalzoom. legal help is here.

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what will be the big headlines this week? jonathan capehart, joan walsh and david french back with me. david, what's going to be the big headline? >> it's all -- people will come to grief, typically, when they're trying to predict the mind of donald trump. but i'm going to predict that he's going to do an important american first, pick newt gingrich as the vice presidential candidate, and creating the first six-marriage ticket in american political history, followed within the week by jerry falwell jr. coming and taking a picture in front of all six marriage certificates and saying, look, the republican ticket loves marriage a lot more that be the democrats. >> you know why i like you, david french? i'll tell you why i like you,

because you agree with me, and that's usually the thing that makes me like a person most because i agree with your headline. jonathan capehart, what is your headline? >> i think the headline will be the endorsement from senator sanders to former secretary of state hillary clinton. but the key thing to watch is what do they do after -- how strong is the endorsement from senator sanders? and then once he's finished speaking, what are they going to do? >> yeah. >> will we be talking about the awkward hug, the lack of a hug. >> ooh. >> the little handshake? and remember, will it be the crazy, awkward "three amigos" handshake? >> how about the missed high five? >> it could that be, or it could be the creepy, weird handshake thing that the president and raul castro did in cuba. >> yes. >> so, i think that will be a headline next week. >> and it will be awkward. do you think it's too late for that endorsement to do anything? >> well, i mean, we've got polls out that show that most of bernie sanders' supporters say they will vote for hillary clinton. i think he waited too long.

his leverage is gone. everybody will be like, it's about time. >> but i think the party will be relieved. >> yes, probably. >> he stole my headline! >> that's your headline, too? >> that's not supposed to happen, but anyway, my headline is, ahead of this chaotic republican convention, as democrats come together -- and it's going to be a big deal. and i have to say, even though i criticized him weeks ago, he did get more out of the platform out of orlando. >> he got a lot. >> he got a lot to start with, got more this weekend. he's managed to have a great effect on the party and i think people are going to come together. >> and one of the things he didn't get was on tpp. you saw eight of the sanders delegates, including and also labor, organized labor, not be on the side of bernie sanders. >> it was all about not embarrassing our -- >> the president. >> -- sitting president at his last convention. >> interesting. so, what i believe the headline will be next week will be that white working class voters, and specifically in ohio, not as high on donald trump as you might think. i think the presumption has been that donald trump's strength is

going to be among the white working class. i think it might be weaker than you think, and we are actually going to go to ohio and prove that, i think. we want to talk with some of these voters, because i think one of the issues that bothers these voters about donald trump is the question of whether he really is looking out for people like them, whether or not the ideas he's putting forward would really help them, and whether the democrats, between bernie sanders and elizabeth warren, have in a sense made a stronger case for the working man and that they are not as, you know, reflexively conservative as you might think. david french, your comment on that. what do you think? do you believe donald trump could wind up having more weakness among white working class voters than he thinks? >> first, i would say what ideas is he putting forward? because i'm not really seeing any. and i think, absolutely, i think he's going to be underperforming in his core demographic as time wears on, because what i'm seeing is there's a learning curve with donald trump. a lot of people don't follow politics all that closely, and they don't really understand what he's about until the longer

they're exposed to him. and i'm seeing some of that happen in my own community. the more they see him, the less they like him. and that just brings me back to one other thing. cleveland has already been believeland once already this year. maybe it can be believeland again. there are hundreds of delegates who are ready to revolt. there was a report last -- later last week that said that if there were a secret ballot, it might even be a majority of the delegates. so, it's not a foregone conclusion that he's the nominee until he's the nominee. >> and you're hearing that -- well, i think he probably will be the nominee. i don't agree with that david french prediction. i think it's too late to replace donald trump at the convention. but one of the things i think does have resonance is you go to cleveland or even cincinnati -- we heard april ryan earlier say trump is going go to cincinnati. if he has to shore up cincinnati, hamilton county, which should be a republican stronghold, that's not a sign of strength, right? i think one of the things with white working class voters, you don't want them to feel that they're being suckered.

and if donald trump's image is one of really suckering people like them, i think that's a powerful case democrats can make. >> right. where they're being made fools, made fools of by someone who says he's representing their interests. i find it curious, if donald trump does go to cincinnati and does go to the naacp, that has, i think, might have something to do with hamilton county and trying to shore that up, but it could also have more to do with taking his campaign to a constituency that by all the polls are not feeling him. and so, you know, if people go to the naacp, republicans go to the naacp to talk not necessarily to the african-americans in the room but to middle of the road, white voters, and tell them, look, i'm not so scary. i'm talking to these folks who as a constituency do not like me. maybe that's what he's doing, but that's so fraught with danger for him in terms of the optics and what could happen.

i don't know why he would put himself in that kind of -- >> they also go -- i mean, this is how i read mitt romney in 2012 -- they also go to kind of stand up to african-americans. >> right. >> in 2012, mitt romney went there, and he attacked obama and obamacare and said he would repeal it. >> that was his point. >> that was his point, and he really wanted to show his voters that he was tough. >> stand up to them. >> he wouldn't tell the black voters -- >> and look for newt gingrich to do that kind of thing, too. because although he had positive notes on race this week, he's been known to do the switcheroo. does kasich endorse trump before the convention? >> no. >> no. >> david french? >> no. >> oh, that will be interesting. jonathan capehart, joan walsh and david french -- i would also say no. that means that's the right answer. that is the show for the day. next week we will be coming to you live from cleveland, site of the republican national convention. my colleague, alex witt, is up next. stay with msnbc for more news at the top of the hour. after a long day, dave stops working, but his aleve doesn't.

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hello, everyone. i'm alex witt here at msnbc world headquarters in new york. it is approaching noon here in the east, 9:00 a.m. out west, and here's what's happening right now. police in st. paul, minnesota, say they arrested 102 people last night during a massive protest which shut down the interstate for nearly seven hours. 21 police officers were injured when protesters threw rocks, bottles and even a molotov cocktail at them. now, this demonstration was one of at least a dozen which took place throughout the country last night, as you can see for yourselves right here, this all in reaction to the police killings of two black men earlier this week. dallas police chief david brown is revealing some disturbing, new details today about micah johnson, of course, the man who gunned down five police officers late thursday night. >> he wrote some lettering in blood on the walls, which leads us to believe he was wounded. where we detonated the device to end the standoff,