thank you for joining us as we continue to follow the latest developments out of dallas. i am ari melber and here at msnbc world headquarters in new york city. at this hour new information about the man who opened fire murdering five dallas officers in cold blood. investigators revealing what he left behind at the scene and his

potentially deadly plans for further mayhem down the line. also, for the first time today we are hearing from the family of one of the officers lost in the line of duty. >> we are just normal everyday people. patrick's just some little kid from the neighborhood. things just don't happen to people like us. >> we can also tell you overnight some officers heard hundreds hauled off in handcuffs at black lives matter protests, those were in louisiana as well as minnesota where two black men were gunned down by police last week. this hour a look at where the movement does go from here. and also, we look ahead to potential prosecutions of the officers who fired the fatal shots. but we start in dallas where today investigators have uncovered some new information about the gunman. now, this could help explain some motives behind the shooting. nbc's tammi joins me in dallas. bha are you learning at this hour? >> ari, we now know that the shooter, micah johnson, left a

cryptic message written in his own blood. he wrote the initials "rb" on a wall where he was holed up in a parking garage and got into a shootout with police. investigators are obviously trying to figure out what the initials "rb" stands for and how it might tie into the shooting. police chief has gone so far to describe micah johnson as delusional. he says during the two-hour standoff when he has team wiz negotiating with the shooter, the shooter was asking how many police officers have i killed? he was taunting and laughing and singing. and that was when at that point the chief made the decision that he didn't want any other officers to be injured. and they sent in a robot with some explosives. we have some sound from the chief. he was asked earlier if he thinks there were other people involved. let's go ahead and listen to what he had to say. >> we still haven't ruled out, jay, whether or not others were

co coml complicate. >> this is still a very active crime scene. we are in the heart of the business district in downtown. and most of the area is still closed off. fbi agents are still out here processing the scene. we're told that as many as 70 fbi agents are involved in the evidence collection. this will obviously continue for the next few days. they're hoping to possibly open up a few of the blocks tomorrow on monday back open to traffic, but that's still unclear if that will happen, ari. >> tammy, two other questions here. number one, you talk about the details that are emerging, the idea that the assailant was as you've put it quoting the authorities, delusional or laughing and singing. from your reporting because you've been through this this whole period, how clear is it whether this person was exhibiting some sort of psychotic break versus having a very clear, sort of anti-police political objective terrorist

kind of motive? and number two, before i let you go, i'm curious your thoughts on the president announcing here that the president will visit dallas on tuesday cutting short his trip? >> that's right. ari, we've had some indication that the shooter may have been planning this. he left a journal behind at his home that appeared to have some ramblin ramblings. some investigators are still trying to figure out what that meant. they also found a large amount of explosives. they actually said enough explosives to do damage to the entire dallas area. and they had some information that he had been practicing detonating explosives in the backyard of the house where he was living. so there is some premeditation there. as far as the president, the president is coming to town on tuesday, we've learned. he was invited by the dallas mayor. he will be here in the afternoon to speak at an interfaith memorial service in the afternoon. you can only imagine with the amount of emotions here in dallas, a lot of people will be showing up for that, ari. >> tammy leitner, thank you for

that reporting. now we have the latest from nbc's joe fryer at baylor university medical center. >> an emotional news conference today here at baylor university featuring shetamia taylor, she is the mother who took four of her sons to the rally in dallas thursday night. they were just starting to actually leave that rally when the shooting started to happen. one police officer, she says, who was shot then told them, run. she did run, but she was hit in the leg. still despite that covered her own son in the midst of all the chaos. and when police officers figured out that she was shot, they protected her, were able to get her out of harm's way and to the hospital for treatment. it was in a very powerful emotional news conference as she and her four sons shared their story about what happened. it got especially emotional when she talked about learning that so many police officers had lost their lives trying to protect other people. take a listen. >> i'm sorry that -- i'm sorry.

i'm so sorry that they lost their lives. but i'm thankful. i'm so thankful. i had never seen anything like that, the way they just came around us and just guarded us like that. it was awesome. >> another powerful moment in the news conference, taylor actually met another mother who had protected one of her children in the aftermath of the shooting. after all the chaos broke out, one of taylor's kids ran away to safety, was helped by a good samaritan who protected that child in the aftermath of what happened until she was able to reunite them with family. well, ms. taylor had not met that mother who helped out until the news conference today. a powerful moment when those two mothers hugged and shared that moment in front of everyone. back to you.

>> joe fryer reporting. thank you. and joining us now from houston former senator kay bailey hut hutchison. senator, i wonder if we can look at that moment there with people who did survive this, you look at people race in this country, plainly african-american individuals in your community heralding the police for the courageous great work they do even though there's all these tensions. your thoughts on what we just heard. >> i think that is the way people are thinking. and i think this community is coming together and trying to show our law enforcement people how much we appreciate them. ari, that also brought to mind another story that happened thursday night when i was watching before the national news was here. and there was an african-american man being interviewed as an eyewitness by one of the local stations.

and he said, i saw the officer on the ground and i knew her. i knew her because she was a d.a.r.t. officer, and she used to help people if they couldn't pay for their d.a.r.t. ride, she would pay for them. >> wow. >> so misty mcbride was the one who was on the ground. and he said everybody was surrounding her. and i just thought, oh, my gosh, i knew her, and she was great. >> and you think about the work and service that so many officers do. and here under fire just for being officers. on the gun side of this, and guns like race are one of the recurring fault lines here. and lord knows we have divisions. you spoke out, i think, previously about at least trying to look at regulation of semiautomatic assault rifles after previous mass shootings. we were looking at some of your comments after sandy hook. do you think that's part of this

conversation now when you see that you have someone in the criminal element carrying around an ar-15 or a semiassault weapon that in some cases is bigger and stronger than what some of the police officers were armed with? >> this is such a tough issue because i am certainly a second amendment supporter. but i also look at some of these they seem like automatics, they're called semiautomatics, but they can get so many shots off in a quick time. and you saw in this situation of course that it went on for two hours. and he was able to injure 15 people and kill five. and i know there's an argument that if law-abiding citizens don't have them, the bad people will. but i think there is some area of reason here about automatics

that are semiautomatics that have these so many capabilities that people who are just without any defense, like the people here in dallas thursday night, they have such an advantage. and we lost so many good people. so it's a tough, tough issue. >> and what do you want to see from the leaders of our country? you've served in the senate with many of them including your former colleague hillary clinton running for president, donald trump running, the president himself coming as you noted to your town there on tuesday. what do you want to see the leaders say now beyond the basics of this is terrible? is there more to be done be it on guns, on police accountability and racial healing, on community policing? or do you view this as simply still a time to heal and not talk about action yet? >> well, i think all of us are trying to think of the right thing about going forward. we are still healing.

we're in shock. there's no doubt about it. but i think for instance some of the things that our mayor and city council have been doing is trying to strengthen the southern part of our city. and there has been a huge investment in that. and i think that is a good thing that can be done to try to make sure that people are getting the services they need in all of our city, that people are getting the respect that they should have in all of our city. and our mayor has been a leader in that. and that's something that i think other leaders can see the good that comes from that. and part of it is the positives that have come out of this tragedy that all sides are saying that there was a good community, that there was a good effort by our policemen to be a part of the community and be trusted by all of the community.

and i think those are the things that we still need to work on with that as a basis. >> former texas senator kay bailey hutchison, our thoughts are with you today. >> thank you, ari. >> in louisiana governor john bell edwards just wrapped up a press conference. we showed you part of that. his point was to urge residents to try to keep all future demonstrations 100% peaceful. we can report for you that last night 101 people including a very prominent black lives matter activist were arrested overnight. protesters taking to the streets calling for justice and accountability after that shooting death of alton sterling. msnbc sarah dallof joining us live from baton rouge. let's start with the latest after that presser. >> reporter: well, hey there, ari. just a few minutes ago deray mckesson was just released, he shared his message with tv

gathers there saying he was disappointed with the police department here in baton rouge and he hopes the department of justice, which is already investigating the death of alton sterling, now gets involved and takes a look at those arrests last night. >> there's a lot of work to be done with this police department specifically. the only people that were violent last night were the baton rouge police department. the protesters remain peaceful both here and across the country. again, i remain deeply disappointed in the baton rouge police department. and i'm hopeful that the department of justice intervenes both in the death of alton and with the way that they treat protesters. thank you. you can speak to my lawyer. >> reporter: now, mckesson, as you mentioned was one of 101 people arrested last night. three journalists among that number. now, in contrast to mckesson's comments, the state's governor just came out and praised law enforcement describing their reaction to these protests as

moderate. he also praised protesters, peaceful protesters saying the majority of these demonstrations have in fact been peaceful. he says it is their right to express their opinions and let their voices be heard and that law enforcement is there to protect them as well. he says violence will not be tolerated as we move forward in this case here, ari. >> nbc's sarah dallof, thank you with the latest in baton rouge. appreciate it. also today in st. paul, children took to the streets in what many were calling a kids march this afternoon. the idea was to push for peace after that night of turmoil in their city. now, last night 21 police officers hurt, 102 people arrested there with police and protesters clashed on interstate 9 4. a lot of concern about the potential danger. governor mark dayton condemned what he called that violence, he said today the occupation of the highway was, quote, extremely

dangerous and urged minnesotans to remain calm and peaceful. nbc's blake mccoy is live for us in st. paul. i know you have some demonstrations going on, but for folks following this today, i wonder if you could give us your view of what our two different pictures the idea anything on a public road is dangerous and hostile, but protests there and elsewhere in the country saying they are trying to be violent, they're not trying to cause harm, but they want their voices heard. >> well, ari, you know, the protests had been peaceful up until this point. these are all over the killing of philando castile here in minnesota, that shooting happened on wednesday. there's been several days of protests leading up to this with very few problems. in fact, you can see a demonstration going on which has been going on since wednesday in front of the governor's mansion here in minnesota. very peaceful. in fact, officers have blocked off the road and giving protesters their space. last night, however, something changed. things became very heated when protesters went on to the highway. officers never like that because then you're obstructing traffic, becomes a public safety hazard. so officers repeatedly warned

those people to get off the highway. at least 16 warnings to get off the highway before they came in and made arrests. officers say they had items hurled at them, like glass bottles, rocks, a firework, everyone a mo-- even a molotov cocktail. we're told all the officers will be okay. the governor is condemning what happened. he's calling for peace and calm especially in light of what happened last night. we did see as you mentioned that childrens march today. a lot of adorable faces walking, black children, white children, asian children, all together. we had a chance to speak with one mother out there. >> i want my children to have a better future and not be worried about if the police will harm them or if they're going to harm my husband i don't want to worry about him going to work. i'm just here for my community and my family. >> governor mark dayton is meeting this afternoon with the head of the local naacp chapter, it's a private meeting but no

doubt they'll be discussing ways to quell these latest tensions. >> blake mccoy live for us in st. paul, minnesota. we appreciate your reporting. the kmancommander in chief calling to reform, but after so many protests and problems over the past few days, is now the time and if it is what must be done? stay with us. uh oh. oh. henry! oh my. good, you're good. back, back, back. (vo) according to kelley blue book, subaru has the highest resale value of any brand. again. you might find that comforting. love. it's what makes a subaru, a subaru. that reminds me... anyone have occasional constipation, diarrhea... ...gas, bloating? yes! one phillips' colon health probiotic cap each day

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police officers are human beings. and i mean, when you're being attacked like that, or at least you're perceived at being attacked, it does create some issues and some problems. but i think we all need to recognize that there are some changes that need to be made. i mean, we can't look at it from a defensive posture. how do we move forward? how do we create an environment where we're on the same page? there's only one issue, and that is creating safe neighborhoods. but also those neighborhoods where people in it have a sense and feeling of justice and fairness.

>> that was charles ramsey, he is co-chair for president obama's task force on 21st century policing. and he was speaking as you could see there on "meet the press" there today. discussing how law enforcement might move forward in a nondefensive way, he says, after these tragedies. after the protests in st. paul and baton rouge escalating last night with the arrests as we've reported over 200 people in total in both cities, the anger continues to grow. and the images of course are spread. joining me now is former baltimore police officer and former chief of staff to the department of justice community policing services rob weinhold. i want to ask you first your view of where we are today as americans say, gosh, here are these tragedies, are we more divided than ever? or are we simply paying attention for good reason to big events? but that doesn't tell us where we are as a national community, if you will. >> i think the appearance is that there's a lot of division. and i think there is as it's being broadcast across the world. but the truth of the matter is virtually everyone i know and

the overwhelming majority of people in this country want a safe place to live, work and raise a family. so i think there's much more that we have in common than we have that might divide us. that being said, i think community policing is extremely important. i think there's a misnomer that community policing means you're soft on crime. and i think police departments should make no apology for arresting those who hurt others or destroy property. but i often have said, and it's very, very true, policing is a relational profession, not a transactional profession. and the best way to do that is outside of the police car, in neighborhoods, making sure you're building trust on a daily basis. and officers and departments across the country, they can be very much a quality of life organization. >> let's get into a little bit because everything you just said makes sense. and i think a casual listener would say, sure, everything there we should do. but there are disagreements here. you talk about getting out of the car, the fbi director, jim comey, has suggested without

data that the fact that these videos are being made makes officers want to stay in the car. that's something that he has disagreed with the obama administration about. and so there is some real tension here of not just saying, oh, it'd be nice to patrol communities but rather there are parts of law enforcement that feel that they're getting a bum rap, these videos make them out to be more reckless or, quote/unquote, racially divisive, and virtually under attack by people supposed to protect them. >> officers are ordinary men and women thrust into extraordinary circumstances each and every day. it's a very, very difficult profession. and frankly i think being an officer today is more difficult than at any point in history. but it doesn't change -- >> why? why is it more difficult now if crime's not as high as other points in history? >> because we're in the digital age. i mean, when officers get out of their vehicles and, you know, 15 people pull out an iphone and want to record everything that's occurring, that changes the dynamic. in theory it shouldn't change how an officer conducts his or her duty, but the fact is is

they're human beings. and i think that that has changed the equation. >> can i push you on that, rob? >> of course, yeah, absolutely. >> one response to that is, well, there are a lot of other areas where people who have some public responsibility are on the record, are accountable whether that's transcripts in court or video transmission or a body camera which the government puts on. i cover these issues, and i totally understand when officers say, hey, i'm being judged by eight seconds, doesn't show you the before and after and the week before. i totally get that. but when you say the idea that any video is a threat to them, why should it be if there's enough video to tell the whole story and they're acting lawfully, won't that be good for them? won't that evidence help them? >> well, first and foremost, i'm not saying that any video is a threat to them. in fact, i'm a firm believer in transparency, proper supervision and accountability. so i think that there are cameras whether they're body cameras or anyone else recording a situation a very, very good thing and a positive step for law enforcement.

but it doesn't change the dynamic that when officers go out and they patrol these streets that one of their interactions may be up for public scrutiny immediately. and i think that does change the dynamic. but again, make no mistake about it, it's a very, very difficult profession. it's unpredictable. i think all of us are feeling a sense of fear and sadness and frustration, but the dialogue has to continue. and not just, you know, i'm not saying that, you know, a firm policy or legislation or fantastic political speech, that's not where it's going to change in the immediate sense. what can happen tonight, what can happen tomorrow? agencies need to get out in their communities and change the dynamic between communities and their police departments person by person, house by house, block by block. outside of the patrol car. and frankly, i think communities have a responsibility as well. when there's an interaction between an officer, whether it's a car stop or a field interview or some other event that occurs, the goal is to make sure that transaction so to speak occurs

and everyone arrives safely on the other side of it. so the old adage of comply and then complain if you feel there's a need to. >> right. >> i believe is very much alive here. >> and briefly, with our 20 seconds, a question i posed earlier to a senator in earlier segment, is it a problem that the texas police officers and the d.a.r.t. officers were essentially outgunned because the assailant had a bigger gun? or is that just life and police have to live with it? >> i think when you have motivated people who are intending to injure others whether it's a knife or gun or some other object, officers are always going to have to deal with that. clearly there's a gun debate in this country. it's going to continue for decades to come. but at the end of the day we have to make sure that enforcement, prevention and treatment are working in harmony to make sure that citizens reduce crime and improve the quality of life in their neighborhoods. again, everyone wants a safe place to live, work and raise a family in this country. >> former baltimore police officer, former doj director rob weinhold, appreciate your giving your expertise today. >> my pleasure. outside dallas police

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memorial to the officers killed in dallas has been growing all weekend outside police headquarters there. and this is of course as tensions remain high. we are three days out from these horrific chushootings. we go directly to texas state senator who represents dallas. thank you for joining us, what is the mood there today? >> it's a very solemn mood. obviously it's a sunday. i've been to at least two church services, going to another one. and the overwhelming theme is unity in this community. and this community needs to grieve and then recognize that it's ground zero for change in america as it relates to police and the black communities' relationship. >> we're seeing these protests around the country. and for people responding to

police-involved shootings, which are complicated, there's a feeling that this is a problem everywhere. does dallas in your view, your constituents feel this is the same problem? or do we risk simplifying the idea that every community has the exact same type of policing problem? >> i think it's ironic that this occurred here in dallas because frankly we're at a good -- we're at a good place as it relates to police and the community's relationship. when you begin to look at the statistics as it relates to the number of complaints filed against police officers, they're down considerably. i think that what happened is that the dallas police officers just represented law enforcement throughout this country and then became the victims of this assassin because of his desire to inflict damage on law enforcement throughout this country. it wasn't a dallas-specific shooting. it was a law enforcement shooting, which is needless to say reprehensible however you look at it. >> do you view it as something

like a hate crime? because in your words he was trying to act upon hate against these people simply because they were police. >> absolutely. i mean, it was a hate crime. i mean, there was no way that anyone can justify doing the damage and the carnage that this person created regardless of what the issue is. the fact is that, yes, we do have an issue between law enforcement and the african-american community, but that's probably 1% to 2% of law enforcement officers in this entire united states. there have been seven victims of crime, seven victims this week -- this past week, a couple questionable shootings in terms of police officers and then needless to say the loss of life from our law enforcement here in dallas, a city that has many best practices in place in order to make certain there's a relationship between the african-american or minority communities and this police department. >> understood. state senator west, thank you for joining us, we appreciate it. coming up, the attorney for the minnesota police officer who

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how would you tell a 2-year-old child that her father is not coming home? that is what the family of dallas police officer patrick zamarripa has been grappling with in the wake of thursday's mass shooting. this is a tough story, but nbc's chris jansing sat down for an interview with patrick's mother and sister who want to talk about what they're going through. this is from earlier today. >> my niece, she'll never know who her father was. she'll only know by what people are telling her. she'll never know him personally and what a great father he would have been for her. >> lincoln's only 2? >> correct.

so terrible to deprive a child of that. >> was she daddy's girl? >> yes, she was. he was such a proactive father. i mean, that was like the light of his life. i mean, even took her to the gym with him. >> what can you even say to a 2-year-old? >> there's nothing you can say because she's already looking for him. she's been asking for him. >> yes, asking for him. >> she sees his face and she knows that's who her dad is. there's no way to tell her that he's not coming home. >> the police union is planning a private service on monday tomorrow, that's for the five officers and their families who you just heard there. the zamarripa family said they're having their own personal service coming this week. joining me from dallas is msnbc national correspondent trymaine

lee, obviously everyone is just reeling. what have you been seeing in your reporting, i know you've been talking and interviewing people in the community about their support for the police? >> that's right, ari. here we are not very far from the shooting at dallas police headquarters. typically around this neighborhood there's a buzz, there are restaurants, bars and cafes. but as soon as you step on this ground right here, there's a stillness. kind of a silence as people come together to hug and console each other. behind me there are two police squad cars, a growing memorial with candles and balloons and one by one people are bringing bouquets of flowers. it's the kind of scene you typically see on an inner city street corner, but here in dallas it's at police headquarters. but as you mentioned i've been talking to folks who are trying to come together from all walks of life, black, white, latino, all trying to make sense of this tragedy, make sense of how this community comes together and moves forward. but let's take a listen to just what a few of them had to say.

>> this is important to me as an african-american male. you know, i kind of know what it's like to be profiled, you know, things like that. so i wanted to come out and let people know, you know, cops are good people. all african-americans are not bad people. so i'm hoping somehow we can bridge the gap. >> one of the things we definitely talked about the night of the event was that -- in fact, it was abigail who said i don't understand why somebody would hate somebody of a different color. and we talked about, well, your color doesn't make you a bad person. it might be something in your heart, and that hurting pain, or bitterness, but it's not a color of a skin. >> this moment, ari, is certainly a complicated one fraught with history, fraught with race and fraught with all kinds of tension. when you talk to folks on the south side of dallas, which is the heart of the traditional black community, there kind of

is a straddling of a line. not in acknowledging the grief and the pain of five officers losing their lives, but on the flip side what prompted the march and rally in the first place. the ongoing killing of black men across this country by police in what many believe is no accountabili accountability. yet and still almost universally everyone is kind of disgusted at the acts of what the police have described as a delusional young man that somehow became radicalized along the way. but from the vigils, the prayer vigils to community events, to here at police headquarters, there is this sense though that this community is trying to do what they can, mustering all the emotion they can in the face of such heart ache to try to come together, ari. >> trymaine lee, thank you for your reporting. louisiana governor john bell edwards wrapped up a news conference a short time ago. he vowed violence there would not be tolerated.

baton rouge sometimes the site of chaotic protests overnight, many peaceful, but ultimately as more things got out of control over 100 people arrested, that include prominent black lives matter activist and former mayoral candidate in baltimore deray mckesson, he was released from custody a short time ago. alton sterling shooting outside baton rouge was one of two police killings of black men captured on video driving so much discussion. the other was the shooting of philando castile in the suburb of st. paul, minnesota. st. paul also the site of major protests last night. and police ultimately used smoke bombs and pepper spray, which they said was necessary to disburse protesters who had shut down that highway. you see some of the video and footage there. 21 officers also hurt because some protesters threw rocks, bottles, bricks, pieces of concrete. it became a very difficult scene as we mentioned that's why it led to over 100 arrests. there was more peaceful activity this afternoon at a protest outside city hall, also in minnesota here in st. anthony this time. and it was a st. anthony police

officer, of course, who shot philando castile. so that's a lot we wanted to update you on. we now want to turn for a perspective on both these cases from someone who knows a lot about it, federal prosecutor fred thanks for being with me. >> thanks, ari, for having me. >> we talked a lot this hour about what's going on in dallas. i want to start with these two cases which have gotten so much attention with regard to someone who might be lawfully holding a firearm or hols sttered in the , just starting there before we get to race and treatment, what as prosecutor would be the right policing protocol to deal with that scenario? >> well, you know, you have to understand something, i'm 57 years old, i spent years as a federal prosecutor, when i get pulled over by a police officer, i'm frightened. the whole incident, the whole exchange is kind of like on the razor's edge of something that could become violent, it could become nonviolent. you add a firearm into that, if you have a lawful firearm back in the days when i used to carry a gun, you tell the officer

right then and there. the next thing you do you raise the tension level even more. from a prosecutorial standpoint and looking at both of these inciden incidence, question is who had a gun, did they lawfully have a gun, there's a thousands questions to be answered. >> push back a little bit, it's not the protocol whether they lawfully have a gun, when i'm asking you for folks to understand if you're in a scenario where the officer approaches someone and they have a weapon, and the idea is to deescalate, what is the right protocol for both those people? >> well, you can push back all you want, but what i'm trying to tell you is you can do everything you want. there's not going to be deescalated. you can tell the police officer you have a gun, and that will help. that will go a long way. you put your hands up where the police officer can see it. you ask permission if you could step out of the vehicle. there's a bunch of different protocols that go to doing everything you can to deescalate something which by its nature is now even more tense. >> so legally, i mean, that's what i'm getting at, i think

we're speaking similar languages here. legally for example let's say a law enforcement officer, fbi agent pulled over by local cop and he knows he has a firearm on him or in the back, protocol would be to have hands up away, inform police and go from there? >> absolutely. protocol would be to keep your hands up where the police officer can see it, indicate to the police officer to use your hypo that you're an fbi agent and that your credentials are in the glove compartment or jacket pocket or under the seat. and ask if you can reach for your credentials or step out so he can reach for them. what you want to do, and i think you and i are kind of basically saying the same thing, you want to take steps to ensure the safety of yourself and the safety of the officer. >> so help people understand then from now moving from protocol to the law, if you don't have the protocol followed that well in this castile case it seemed from what we know and we don't know everything yet, it seemed that it unfolded very quickly, that there was some

hand towards weapon area progression. and the question i think for the officers or any reviewing authority would be is the officer then lawfully responding to what he perceives as the grievest bodily harm or death, or walk us through what is the test for that? >> well, the test is, you know, as startling as this sounds did the officer ask reasonably under the circumstances in making a decision to use deadly force. and these are very tough situations. i mean, i've watched both of these videos and i can tell you when you first watch them they're very, very troubling, they're very troubling for a lot of different reasons, even putting race aside. but i also know for the reasons you and i have been talking about, these are very scary circumstances. as frightened as the person in the vehicle is, you know, these police officers are on some level frightened. some of them deal with it differently. they're human beings. >> sure. so let me say on that, what do you say to the idea that we happen to be a country right now

that has these very strong rights for people to have guns and in many states to conceal carry. i mean, the nra responded, and i think we can put it on the screen, the nra responded and talked about how the minnesota incident raises questions about basically support the right of law-abiding americans to carry firearms for the defense of themselves and others regardless of race. reports from minnesota are troubling and must be thoroughly investigated. they're bringing up race, and they're saying this individual, we don't know everything yet does have a constitutional right in their view regardless of race to be armed. what's the point of that, i suppose, is the question, if law enforcement is accused at least of having a disparate approach to who's holding the gun if you have that legal right. >> that's the whole issue, right? does law enforcement have a d dispart approach, but there's a perception in the community that that's true.

and that has to be dealt with. what i've watched over the last couple of months is that there's no room for debate, there's no room for people of differing opinions. there's name calling, on both sides. and the rhetoric has to come down. okay. everybody wants law-abiding citizens not to be shot. everybody wants police officers to be safe in what they do. and if the african-american community's perception is they're getting targeted and gunned down, that has to be dealt with. but taking strong rhetoric positions there's never any compromise. everything has to move towards and to answer your question there has to be practices and procedures in place so that all law-abiding citizens irrespective of their race who wish to exercise second amendment right can do it, the police officers can be safe and have practices and procedures so that when they approach a vehicle, you know, they don't is have to worry about getting shot. there's a lot of really hard things that need to be done. >> and as a prosecutor, if you got a case file about a potential shooting that --

potentially unlawful shooting, you do an investigation, how long would you take before you reached a working theory of what happened and whether it was justified? i ask you because you mentioned some of the problems. i'll add a problem. it seems to me we have a problem where within an hour of an incident people are saying they know what happened and who was right and wrong. and my law enforcement experience an investigation takes longer and real investigators don't start with the conclusion. i wonder what your experience is. >> you just hit the nail on the head. my experience is is you don't start with your conclusion. you don't start with what you think will happen. what you do is you look at all the evidence and all the facts. for years and years i've been flying in airplanes and involved in airplane investigations even as a prosecutor, you never start with a theory. you start to look at all the facts, all the information and where does it lead you. same thing in these cases. i'll tell you something, like i said earlier when i first looked at both of these footages, i was very put off by it, very put off by it. but that's not the right way to start the investigation.

that's not fair to anybody. as you said, you just follow the evidence and keep an open mind. don't have an agenda, and try and reach a just result. that's your job. >> fred tecce, former federal prosecutor, thanks for joining us today. >> thank you for having me. have a good weekend. >> absolutely. that is some of the law. next, we turn to the politics. there is a lot of response from politicians about this deadly week. president obama says attacking police officers actually is hurting the black lives matter movement. hillary clinton and donald trump trying to catch up with where voters are after a time where americans are spiraling and asking fundamental questions about who should lead this country. we're going to turn to that and turn to it in a serious way. that's next.

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at the end of the day, i think people recognize the importance of the office of the president and that the united states occupies a unique role in the world, and will take that decision about who sits in the oval office very seriously. >> president obama speaking there in spain today. he was discussing the presidential election and how it fits into these tragic events this week. members returning to congress, presidential candidates will be back on the campaign trail, and we're going to hear from them what they think all of this means. new york times reporter joins me now. you've been covering the presidential race as well as this issue. what do politicians do now? >> i think what politicians do is really figure out how people are feeling and figure out why people are so upset. the idea that we had that governor of minnesota really talk about the idea that if philando castile had not been -- had been -- had not been black and if he had been white, that he wouldn't have had that same

experience. so i think the idea that politicians really just need to like go into what people are feeling and the actual problems, like really confront these problems, don't kind of brush them under the rug. >> well, and as you say, speak to them bluntly. in some ways, that's an understandable comment for a governor to make because the data suggests there is disparate treatment of african-americans for the same conduct. at the same time, it's not the best thing for a leader to say during an open investigation because we don't actually know why that officer did what he did. and he may have done it for bad reasons or good reasons or misguided reasons. we don't know yet. so that's sort of an interesting question about how to be straightforward without prejudging an investigation. and as a governor he's got a responsibility there. he's senator bob corker and cory booker who were talking about the federal portion of this for police departments on "meet the press." take a listen. >> this is mostly a local issue. and individual mayors and police chiefs and others respond in an

appropriate way. >> we have 18,000 police departments in our country, and many of them are significantly underresourced. we have officers dying every single year on duty, and we should be doing a lot more as a nation to support those officers. >> you see those comments. they're not really dealing with, i would say, the core of this either. noting that something is local and not national, so what? and noting that we should fund it, sure, we should fund everything. the question right now isn't just about funding, is it? >> the question isn't only about funding. the question is whether or not we as a nation are going to say even as we support our police officers, there has been findings of bias in multiple cities and african-americans from the age of 5 on up are really sometimes petrified of the police. whether we want to confront that as a country, i think we can say that each of these cases has to have its own facts and we have to figure out how to deal with each one of these cases. but overall, we know that african-american men have been stopped, have been imprisoned,

and have been killed at much higher rates than other races. so i think it's also about the rates and not the numbers. a lot of times we focus on the fact that african-americans, even if they're a small number and they might have in total less stops, the idea is that by ratio, african-americans feel like they're being targeted and the numbers and the doj has found out they really are targeted. >> and yet officers also feel targeted, justly so, because they're killed for being officers or killed in the line of duty. >> i think dallas, that is a really -- dallas told us that people will target officers, that people's pain will turn violent, and that there is that issue too. and of course officers are targeted all over the country for all types of reasons, not only just because they're officers but also because they might have arrested somebody or might have made somebody angry. i think the idea that police officers have a job, that there job is inherently dangerous, i think is something a lot of people understand. i think whether or not people understand that african-americans, for generations, have been petrified of the police and really have issues with policing, i don't know if that issue is as

understood as it could be. >> you get the last word on what is obviously a tough day for everyone. thank you for joining us, sharing some of your reporting. that does it for this hour, i am ari melber in new york. we'll have updates on this story. up next, minnesota beg"meet thes after a short break. extraordinarily painful, i hear you. make sure your doctor hears you too! i hear you because i was there when my dad suffered with diabetic nerve pain. if you have diabetes and burning, shooting pain in your feet or hands, don't suffer in silence! step on up and ask your doctor about diabetic nerve pain. tell 'em cedric sent you.

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this sunday, a nation divided. >> oh, my god, please don't tell me he's dead. >> a week that began with the shooting of two african-american men by police officers. >> i wanted everybody in the world to see what the police do. >> ends this way. with the killing of five police officers at a black lives matter rally in dallas. >> the suspect stated he wanted to kill white people, especially white officers. >> and sparks protests across the country. >> black lives matter! black lives matter! >> from policing to politics, the country seems increasingly divided. this sunday morning, i'll talk to the head of homeland security. two top cops