on "andrea mitchell reports." craig melvin picks it up next from cleveland right here on msnbc. hi, everyone. good thursday to you. i'm craig melvin here in cleveland, ohio. we're at erie island coffee. again, the 2016 republican national convention just days away. more on that in just a moment. right now, though, we continue to look at what's happening there in washington, d.c. former secretary of state hillary clinton just laid a wreath, she laid some flowers down at the national law enforcement memorial there in washington. she is making her way to capitol hill. she is expected to be visiting with senate democrats there. we just saw a live look there outside the lbj room on capitol hill. kristen welker has been covering the clinton campaign for us. kristen, what can we expect from this meeting between hillary and

senate democrats? >> reporter: craig, this meeting is all about cementing party unity heading into the convention in the next several days. it comes after secretary clinton earned that critical endorsement from senator bernie sanders. and it comes of course ahead of the gop convention. i'm told by campaign sources she's going to be here updating her former colleagues on the state of the campaign, her plans for the general election, and she's likely going to talk about a lot of her policy priorities heading into the general, which of course include immigration reforms. she was talking about that earlier. health care reform as well as the minimum wage. and you just heard andrea talk about the fact that this week she has been really focused on how to solve the growing tensions between minority communities and police departments. and that's one of the ways she's been trying to draw sharp distinctions between herself and of course her challenger donald trump. i just interviewed one of her top surrogates, claire mccaskill, about all of this. she said that she expects secretary clinton to vigorously sort of lay out her plans ahead

of the general election. senator sanders, by the way, just walking into the lbj room as we talk, craig, just to give you a little bit of color of what's going on here. and i asked senator mccaskill about these poll numbers, the fact that she's now in a dead heat with donald trump. she said she's not concerned about that because of course poll numbers go up and they go down. and that is of course what you would expect one of secretary clinton's supporters to say. but i also asked her about perhaps if you're within the clinton campaign the more troubling number, the 67% of voters who say they don't trust her. senator mccaskill expressing confidence that she could build that trust back. craig? >> kristen welker for us on capitol hill where again hillary clinton set to walk into that room any moment now. the lbj room on capitol hill. meeting with senate democrats. she's right now visiting the national law enforcement officers memorial. we just saw vermont senator and her former rival bernie sanders go in for that meeting as well. we are keeping a very, very close eye on that. and right now the political

stratosphere also on edge awaiting word on who donald trump mr. choose to be his vice presidential candidate. trump telling the world that news will come at 11:00 a.m. eastern tomorrow. early reports, rumors, speculation swirling about who's in, who's out, all of that trickling in by the hour afghan by the minute. will it be indiana governor mike pence? will it be political powerhouse newt gingrich, perhaps new jersey governor chris christie? christie sitting down for an msnbc exclusive today, telling our own nicole wallace he doesn't know who it is. >> when you checked your blackberry, are had you heard any news? >> no. >> have you still do not know? >> no. >> do you think donald trump's made a decision? >> don't know. >> you really don't know -- >> i swear i don't know. i don't know. >> in your role as his adviser what would you tell him? >> you know, i wouldn't advise him on this because i'm biased. >> also, horses, dogs, robots,

cleveland pulling out all the stops in preparation for what could be a security nightmare as this city prepares for rallies, demonstrations, and an onslaught of political sideshows. our msnbc team on the ground covering every inch of the 2016 primary action here in cleveland. also in the nation's capital as well. let's start with kelly o, who has been closely watching the vp conversation, literally the conversation with chris christie two hours ago here on msnbc. we are somewhat, 22 hours now from trump's scheduled announcement, kelly o. what are your sources telling you about where we stand? doe do we know who it is going to be? >> we don't. and i'm afraid to put my blackberry -- my iphone down because there may be updates. here's what we do know. there are some published reports that point to the indiana governor. but our sourcing says that the

decision has not yet been made and that some of the contenders in this race have not been notified, have not been called by donald trump. so we are in a kind of in between place where there are sort of political smoke signals pointing toward mike pence. his team is saying that they are proceeding normal, nothing has changed, they have no information. so that's where we are. we do know that the trump campaign has said that 11:00 a.m. announcement tomorrow will be at the new york hilton and at this point all we can say is that the trump team has done a predictably good job at building suspense and keeping everyone guessing. so when the smoke signals point in one direction, it is possible that's where it will lead us. but at this point talking with senior positions in positions to know we do not yet have that information. so we're going to try to be patient about this and we're going to try to hold off to make sure when we tell you who it is we're confident in that.

at this point we're looking for guidance. we don't know if there are conversations happening behind the scenes to notify those in final contention. we can say that governor mike pence has been considered a favorite by many for a few basic reasons. he brings some sort of heartland conservatism, connection to evangelical christians, both legislative and executive experience, and a calm demeanor that tha would certainly be a counterweight to the brash candidate. at the same time newt gingrich has been definitely on the radar for people inside trump's circle as well, pushing him for his intellectual ability within the conservative movement, his track record on capitol hill, his ability to connect with voters who are certainly needing to be kept kind of invigorated during this cycle, not wanting voters to stay home. and chris christie spoke with our own nicole wallace a short time ago and he is described as

someone who can take the fight to hillary clinton as a second voice with donald trump, an ability to be a good counselor behind the scenes, and loyalty. so here is a bit of how chris christie described the position he's in right now. >> i'm eye competitive person. i'm not going say it won't bother me if i'm not selected. of course it bothers you a little bit. because if you're a competitive person like i am and you're used to winning like i am, again, you don't like coming in second. ever. but i don't need to go out to the batting cage and hit off the machine. i'll just go back to work. >> and part of the test for any of these top contenders is how do they perform under the increased pressure of being in the speculation game. certainly there have been more cameras following governor mike pence than he is accustomed to, even as a governor running for re-election. he has teased at some of his gup to

gubernatorial events that there were more people tagging along and that is something the trump campaign can watch, how does he respond to questions, how does he perform under pressure, is he capable of demonstrating the sort of skill set they're looking for. same thing with newt gingrich. he was appeared on television in the last 24 hours and compared himself and the candidate to two pirates in terms of their sort of outlook and their ability to take on the establishment. and he said perhaps trump will decide he doesn't need two pirates. maybe he does. and governor christie of course telling us how he would feel if the call did not come to him and did not go his way. craig? >> kelly, we also got word a short time ago that newt gingrich is planning this 2:00 facebook live chat. you've got to wonder if he was going to be the number two, whether he would be scheduling a facebook live chat or any sort of chat on social media. and possibly steal some of the thunder from the number one on the ticket. let's talk more about mike pence here. you mentioned his bona fides in

the evangelical community. what would pence being number two on the ticket, what would that also do for the relationship between donald trump and law miernthz hill, whether they be senators or congressmen? >> mike pence served 12 years on capitol hill, and he was not just a member of congress, he was a member of republican leadership. and he left only to run for governor. and he does have some long ties there, some respect. and as we have been covering over these weeks and months, there is some resistance among members of the house and the senate to get on board with trump. that has been improving over time because they've had some outreach directly week by week trying to reach out to lawmakers and get them on board. pence could speak to them, understands what their concerns are, understands the pressure on elected official to be in the same season as a controversial top of the ticket candidate and how they all have to answer for some of the things donald trump says or what he does.

so for pence he is also someone who can reach to the donor community and some of the big donors have been waiting, sitting back. so those are some of the skills he could bring. and of course gingrich and christie have their own skill sets, and it really depends on what trump wants and maybe to some extent what his family wants because they are such close trusted advisers. craig? >> kelly o, safe to say that if it is pence that would be widely considered a safe pick for trump. >> that has been probably the easiest word to boil it down. if you were going to say what does he give most, i think it is the word safe in part because he's got sort of a clean record politically if you will. not a lot of controversy. he is well liked in the party. he might not be the most dynamic or biggest personality, but someone that would not make people nervous. and really with these three top contenders they all sort of meet the could he be president test, which is critical in selecting a

vice presidenting running mate. in the next few months the vice president has different jobs to fill. the vp debate, the big speech at the convention, and the day-to-day combat of a very contentious political race. so each of them could bring something. safe is a word that has been used regarding governor pence. trump is not notably a safe figure he might want that to balance it out or he might find that does not fit as comfortably. and it really may depend on how closely he wants to work with his running mate. will they move in separate orbits or will they work closely together? craig? >> kelly o with some fresh reporting on the veepstakes. kelly, thank you. let's get to hallie jackson now. one of our reporters checking the phone, talking to sort rzs. hallie, what are you hearing about a potential running mate decision? >> it will come down soon, craig, as we've been reaching out to our sources and folks inside and outside the campaign.

as you know, nbc news is characterizing this as essentially too early to say who the vice presidential pick for donald trump will be. we have been told by a couple of sources close to trump that he is in the process still of making the decision. although as kelly o'donnell has reported and as we are reporting, pence is looking like one of the top contenders. obviously i am told by one source close to the campaign that a lot of that is coming from his family members. specifically wife melania, daughter ivanka, who believe a pick of pence would help in this person's words calm the waters a little bit surrounding the campaign. and that is reflective of what you hear in some gop circles, that it would essentially have the effect of reassuring conservatives of being the safe pick, if you will. but obviously, craig, this is sort of the peak time of a lot of speculation. you want to be really careful here. you have teams on the ground basically all over the country working on it. >> really quickly, hallie, this idea that we've been floating for the past few weeks that at the 11th hour donald trump might surprise everyone and pick someone not quite out of the blue but perhaps someone who

hasn't been top of mind for a lot of political journalists. does it seem as if that's not going to happen, that it is going to be someone we have been talking about here? >> listen, there is the possibility of course that trump as we talked about could have picked somebody, there had been a couple of names floating out there, these dark horse type candidates, if you will. that said, even just a couple of days ago trump himself was publicly saying he didn't want to pull any surprises, that's not what he was in it for. he is a former reality show star. he knows the idea of how to build suspense and how to pull off surprises. what we are hearing and what i have heard from sources inside the campaign is it is not likely that he is going to throw a wild curveball in the ninth inning, if you will, that it is likely to be one of these folks we've been talking about. >> hallie jackson for us also here in cleveland, ohio. hallie, thanks. we'll be coming back to you a fair amount over the next few hours. more on the veepstakes here. lots more on the veepstakes here on msnbc. a stunning reversal in the back and forth between donald trump

and ruth bader ginsburg. also again more on the vp frenzy. less than 24 hours away from learning who donald trump will choose to stand by his side as his running mate here in cleveland this weekend. is the vetting process over yet? and does trump even have the nomination locked down? we'll take a look at that. it also brings us to today's microsoft pulse question. does the anti-trump movement still have a chance of stopping him from securing the gop nomination? the pulse is live. you can join the conversation. pulse.msnbc.com. my name is barbara and i make dog chow natural.

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here was the scene just a few moments ago. hillary clinton, the presumptive democratic nominee, outside the lbj room on capitol hill. let's listen in. >> are you concerned that you're in a dead heat with donald trump? >> i'm very happy to be here. thank you all. >> what's your message today? >> just heard our own kristen welker there asking hillary clinton a question. we'll get back to that in just a moment. right now hillary clinton meeting with senate democrats there on capitol hill. meanwhile, just days after ruth bader ginsburg lashed out at donald trump in multiple interviews drawing fire from both republicans and democrats the supreme court justice is apologizing. nbc news justice correspondent pete williams is in washington with details on this. pete, how unprecedented is this? >> well, this is unprecedented. so were her earlier statements. so i guess it's all of a piece.

what she said is it's not really an apology. she says she regrets doing what she did. and it's a very carefully worded statement. very condensed. let me read it to you. she says, "on reflection, my recent remarks in response to press inquiries were ill-advised, and i regret making them. judges should avoid commenting on a candidate for public office. in the future i will be more circumspect." so the statement comes five days after this all got started, when the a.p. reported that she said whoever the next president is she, she said, will do a good job, she didn't want to think about the possibility of a trump presidency. she sort of amped those comments up later in an interview with the "new york times." and then further still in the interview with author joan baskupek, who was working on a book about the chief justice. the fact is that justice ginsburg has been criticized for these comments of course by republicans, notably by trump himself, but also by legal scholars who are big fans of hers and even some of her supporters were cringing at

these remarks. and i'm sure the fact that she's now trying to put an end to it comes as a relief to her supporters, and i would guess, craig, other members of the court as well. >> pete williams for us in washington. pete, thanks as wls, good sir. as we continue to monitor new new developments on donald trump's vp decision. this is what speaker paul ryan had to say yerler today. >> it is no secret i'm a big fan of mike pence's. we're very good friends. i have very high regard for him. i hope he picks a good movement conservative. clearly mike is one of those. but there are other good people he's considering as well. and i just like you don't know what he's going to do and i hope he makes a good pick, and clearly that would be a good one. >> so three names that keep coming up as possible running mates, here they are again. new jersey governor chris christie, former house speaker newt gingrich, indiana governor mike pence. the only thing we know for certain, donald trump says he will be making his choice public at 11:00 a.m. eastern tomorrow. i'm joined now to talk about the

strengths and weaknesses of those three men by pete seat, republican strategist, formerly with the kasich campaign. hugh hewitt, msnbc political analyst. also host of "the hugh hewitt show." pete, let me start with you. let's start with mike pence. friends on capitol hill from his days as a congressman. enjoys a lot of support from social conservatives. would you say he's the odds-on favorite at this point? >> it sure sounds like it. and as a proud hoosier that's something exciting for me and for people in this state. from my perspective, mike pence is the most well-rounded of the gentlemen you that just mentioned. newt gingrich brings a couple of characteristics and qualities that i think donald trump would find appealing, as does chris christie. but mike pence brings them all. he has those relationships on capitol hill. to the point that paul ryan made. he also has international relations experience, having sat on that committee. he has governing experience as the governor of our home state of indiana. and he has it all that you would

want in a vice presidential running mate and, most importantly, in a governing partner if donald trump were to win. >> but hugh, i guess the question then becomes, as hallie jackson reported, some inside his inner circle there, his family members most notably have said that a pence pick would calm the water. her language there. would he do that? would a pence pick as a number two calm the waters? >> he makes everybody happy. i think pete's right. everybody likes mike pence. i go back to when he was the chair of the house republican conference, which is the fourth senior member of the house. he chaired the retreat in baltimore, and he got into it with president obama in 2010 over president obama's so-called radical economic policy. so mike pence is no stranger to mixing it up on the national stage. but he does so from a very principled base. i like him because he's a radio talk show host. that's what he did before he went to congress. he's also a lawyer. and his district was also the easternmost district in indiana. so he's almost a buckeye, pete.

he's almost from god's country. the fact of the matter is everyone will be happy. it takes off a couple of weapons out of the arsenal, which is if you have a chris christie in there and the avalanche of issues continues toward law and order and/or terrorism, that plays to chris christie's strengths, not so much mike pence. but if you have a restive convention and the rules committee ain't going so well today for everybody, it's kind of bumpy, mike pence will calm those waters, especially in cleveland next week. >> by the way, at last check you just referenced the rules committee. at last check they were still in recess, reportedly trying to broker some sort of deal. pete, if you go with the chris christie, you've got a bulldog. we know he's a straight shooter, aggressive to say the least out there on the stump. if you were to go with a newt gingrich, you've got an ideas guy. is a mike pence, is that pick too safe? does he not do a great deal to excite the base?

>> well, in the terms of donald trump, maybe he's too safe of a pick. we've kind of gotten used to surprises and showmanship. just look at how he's chosen a vice presidential running mate. but i think you need to calm those waters. you need to reach out to the holdout social conservatives. you need to reach out to the holdout establishment types and say hey, this is how i'm going to govern if i'm president of the united states, i'm going to bring together people who i don't necessarily agree with on every issue, i'm not going to go out and find people who are just going to grandstand and say the most outlandish things on television, i want folks who actually have governing records, who have experience, who have relationships, and that's why i picked mike pence and that's how i'm going to fill out the rest of my cabinet and the rest of my administration. >> hugh, trump continues to struggle with minority voters. he continues to struggle with women voters as well.

logically, why pick another older white guy? no offense. >> well, he's perfect in terms of telegraphing to the movement conservatives that they ought to come out and vote donald trump. i hope he fills out his cabinet with the same sorts of picks if it is governor pence that communicate it will be a republican reform agenda. i'd point out the person that's struggling this morning according to the "new york times" is hillary clinton because of her lies to congress and the comey indictment, the comey conviction, not an indictment, left her in a tailspin in the media right now. so mike pence comes along, got a great reputation for integrity. he managed to get the votes of every kind of conservative and republican in the house when he was elected chair of the house conference. so it brings together everyone. he telegraphs that donald trump would indeed govern as a conservative with quefsht appoi conservative appointees. he brings 3,000 people to washington with him. his first would be a conservative governor. and mike pence is as truthful as hillary clinton has not been. so i think that's a very important thing, message for trump to send when secretary clinton's in a tailspin. >> i do want to play just

another piece of sound here. this is again chris christie speaking to our own political analyst nicole wallace. this is roughly two hours ago. this is what he said when asked whether delegates should be allowed to vote their conscience. take a listen. >> no. because the people have spoken. we had -- >> so there's not -- >> why do we have the primary? why do we have the primary, nicole? listen, there would have been plenty of people who were griping if i won. i've got enemies out there. >> but you didn't propose a muslim ban. you didn't make fun of disabled people on the stump. you didn't call women fat pigs. i disagree. >> i know you disagree. and we've had this disagreement before privately. but this is now down to a binary choice. it is a binary choice. it's either donald trump or hillary clinton. >> pete, what do you say to that? >> well, i think that's what the republican national committee wants. that's what a lot of people want. there's already going to be drama at the convention, whether it's on the stage, on the floor,

or outside the convention hall itself. i think they're trying to limit drama amongst the delegates and getting that conscience clause pushed through. i talked to the rules committee chairman, the permanent rules committee chairman, bruce ash, on my podcast a couple of weeks ago and he was saying this is not going to happen, as much as you hear all this talk and speculation and this chatter it's just not realistic that this will come through. but obviously we'll see what happens after recess at the rules committee. >> hugh hewitt, pete seat. hey, pete, really quickly, if it is mike pence, does your old boss come around? does kasich get on board? >> we'll see. he may be one of those holdouts who are able to do it. but only time will tell. >> all right. that's a very diplomatic non-answer. thank you, pete. conscience clause, minority report, unbound delegates. our msnbc delegate hunter jacob soboroff naturally here in cleveland here to explain the hail mary pass the stop trump effort has planned here next week.

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helping him win. >> sure. but i'm always biased toward myself. let's be honest, nicole. i'm not going to go in there and advise him to pick someone else. >> back here in cleveland, a meeting back under way between republican national committee officials and members of the trump campaign and disgruntled conservative republicans. some members of the republican convention rules committee trying to do what 16 republican presidential candidates could not. their goal, to make sure donald trump does not get their party's nomination. msnbc's delegate hunter jacob soboroff caught up with some of these delegates behind the last-ditch effort to stop trump. how do they plan to do it, sir? >> reporter: hey, craig. so there's two schools of thought on how to get this done. one, both involve unbinding awful these delegates. and you'll remember when i was in colorado and north dakota some delegates come to the convention unbound, but there's a movement under way, several in fact, to unbind all of the delegates. one of them is from kendall

unryu who wants to put what's called a conscience clause forward in the rules committee meeting which is going on behind the blue curtains. you can see them over there. the other is by a guy named curly hoffman who argues without an additional rule being passed delegates are already unbound. i caught up with both of them together for their first on-camera interview. take a look. >> you wrote a book called "unbound" about the fact you that think the primaries in terms of the popular vote don't matter, it's all about what the delegates end up doing. so today and tomorrow here at the rules committee meeting you think that kendall's rule is going to pass? >> you said i think they're unbound. it's what i used to think. now i know. it's not a matter of speculation. >> people are watching us right now on msnbc and they're saying how is that possible? there's a popular vote. over 20 million people voted in the republican primary. you're telling me that approximately 2,000, 2,500, almost 3,000 delegates can do whatever he this want to pick the no, ma'am nooet of the republican party?

>> well, oddly enough, that's called the rules of the republican party. we're a private association. these rules have been in existence since 1856 in one form or another. >> so you're going argue in this rules committee meeting or you tell me, but what i interpret is even if kendall's proposed rule doesn't pass you think that there's still a way of stopping donald trum frp becoming the republican nominee. >> no, it's not about stopping donald trump. it's about allowing the delegates to vote however they want to. >> well, for kendall i know it's about stopping donald trump. >> i've been honest about that from the beginning. however, we're if in agreement about ultimately it is allowing the delegates to vote their conscience, which they legitimately have. and i've been clear about that from the beginning that this rule doesn't give them the right, it just codifies their right. >> reporter: now, in a super strange twist, craig, earlier this morning the meeting got under way and then it was postponed. almost for a couple hours. because of what they said was difficulties with a printer. what we found out is certain parties involved in this rules committee meeting went into back rooms in order to make deals. reince priebus, the chairman of the rnc was here.

ken cuccinelli, who many people say is aligned with the ted cruz campaign. and kendall unrue in one of these back rooms talking about potentially we thought making a deal about unbinding these delegates. i just caught one kendall on her way back into the session. here's what she told me in a little iphone footage. >> did you guys make a deal yet? >> no. >> no deal? >> this rumor mongering among the press has to stop. >> not true, no deal? >> if i was a teacher grading you guys you'd all get a d minus. >> a d minus? all right. see you. >> reporter: so there's no deal, craig. there's no deal on this idea of a conscience clause, whether or not to have that vote, which means most likely it is going to come up in the rules committee meeting. she needs 28 votes. 1/4 of the members of the rules committee to bring this to the floor for a full vote. it could still very well happen. and we will see here at the rules committee meeting in the convention center. >> any idea when that meeting's going to restart? >> they're up and running right now, craig, and we are expecting it to go into the afternoon and

the evening. the question is are they going to vote on the conscience clause, the idea of unbinding delegates to vote for someone else than donald trump today or will it happen tomorrow? chatter is it may happen tomorrow but on the chance it does happen today we will be here and we will bring it to you live. >> all right. jacob soboroff, thanks as always. steve lon gaegan spokesman for courageous conservative pac. i know you've been following these meetings very closely. what are you hearing about what's going on inside -- >> pretty much much of what you're hearing except that also mike lee and his wife of utah are involved in the current discussions and i think more and more of these rnc members, rules committee members are coming over to our side. they believe like we believe that a full and open dynamic convention would actually benefit the republican party and be a real battle of ideas. and i think all eyes of the nation and the world would be on the republican party if we open up to a full-blown convention the way it should be. this is about giving the delegates the opportunity to vote their conscience, to choose the candidate best suited to defeat hillary clinton and uphold the republican party's conservative platform. many of us like myself and many,

many others do not believe donald trump is that candidate. >> but if you've got millions of voters who've spoken in primaries and caucuses all over the country, why try this now? >> craig, donald trump has gotten about 20% of republican voters to vote for him in the primaries. 20%. that is called a minority. the delegates to this convention represent the entire republican party. we are a representative form of government. just like the united states of america elects congressmen who then go to congress and represent. our delegates represent all of us. they represent me. they represent other people who didn't vote for trump as well as voted for trump. an open convention doesn't mean donald trump still doesn't win. it means he has to work harder. it means that ideas have to come forth in their full-blown, fully developed position and delegates will make their decisions. look, the people that have come to this convention are smart people. they didn't become delegates by being bumps on a log. they've been involved in the republican party, many of them,

for decades. they're here to do what's best for the party. and that's whathis convention should be about. is the coronation -- it's not even a coronation. this is a nomination process. >> are you not at all concerned, not at all worried that if there is this chaotic scene on the floor, that if this rules committee meeting spirals out of control and next week all of this is on full display, that you've got a weaker candidate going into november? are you not at all concerned -- >> quite the opposite. if donald trump can't battle his way through a full-blown robust republican convention where everything is aimed against him and he has to prove himself, how is he going to take on hillary clinton and her billions of dollars of advertising and spending come september and october? this is where you get prepared. and after a convention like this, if anything, this is what would pull the whole republican party together because it would show the whole world that we truly are the party of the first amendment, of individual liberty, and of an open process. we're not going to allow the system to be rigged by so-called

binding these delegates. they're not bound yet. >> at what point do you and others in your movement just resign yourself to the fact that donald trump is your guy? >> when he gets the nomination. >> after that he's your guy -- >> look, after that he's our guy and we will get behind him. and there are some people in this movement who are not like that. we're not part of that. there are people out there, and you've heard from them, who will not vote for trump. i can tell you our organization, who's fully behind unbinding the delegates, are going to back whoever the nominee who comes out of this convention process. we want a fair, open, legitimate dynamic convention process just like abe lincoln went through in 1860 when he defeated the presumptive nominee william seward, ironically also from new york state. >> pence, christie, gingrich, who dawe want to see in the end in the two spot? >> i think they're all good. i think they're all three good. >> is there one of those men that does more to help, again, using the same language, to calm the waters? >> i would say newt gingrich brings two ideas.

he's a great thinker, weighs a true leader in 1994 in the republican party. mike pence is a stabilizing force and brings in the midwest and has been a conservative for years. and chris christie's been an outspoken governor of new jersey. he's got some baggage there and he's right next door to trump. so you've got new york and new jersey right next to each other. but i think all three of them -- you know, ultimately it's the guy who's at the top of the ticket. it's the candidate for president who's going to determine this outcome. >> again, next week here in cleveland all eyes will be on the convention. how do you hope it plays out? >> i hope it's just what i want, a big open robust 1860s style convention where the whole world wants to watch it every minute. i think it's great for the party. >> steve lonegan, the courageous conservative pac. thank you. >> thanks for having me. there are very few latinos and african-americans on trump's rnc speakers list. why isn't that list more diverse and what could that mean for trump who's having trouble registering minority support in our latest polls? we'll talk to the man in charge of trump's minority outreach

when we return from here in cleveland. first, though, let's get an update on your reaction to today's microsoft pulse question. does the anti-trump movement still have a chance of stopping him from securing the gop nomination? the results so far, wait for it, wait for it, wait for it. there they are. 56% of you. 56% of you say yes, there's still hope for you, steve. the pulse is live. keep those votes coming in. you can head to pulse.msnbc.com to weigh in right now. you are watching msnbc's live coverage, the countdown to the republican national convention here in cleveland, ohio. max and i just discovered

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heritage, since the very beginning of his campaign donald trump has taken a lot of heat for stoking divisions over race and religion. there's an article out today in the "new york times" that suggests it's that very rhetoric that's actually helping trump draw strong support among disenfranchised white voters. in the piece political reporter nick confessore writes, "in countless collisions of color and creed jonld donald j. trumpe evokes an easily understood message of racial hostility. defying modern conventions of political civility and language mr. trump has breached the boundaries that have long constrained americans' public discussion of race." "the new york times'" nick confessore joins me now. it is a fascinating read, sir. you point to america's changing demographics, writing also that the resentment among whites feels both old and distinctly of this moment. "it is shaped by the reality of demographic change, by a decade and a half of war in the middle

east, and by unease with the newly confident and confrontational activism of young blacks furious over police violence in this country." you talked to dozens of folks for this article. what else did they tell you? >> well, what's important here, craig, it's not just what trump says himself, although some things he's said are obviously inflammatory and some people have been offended by them. it's the way he talks. his refusal to back down from what he talks about. and the kind of crucible of the campaign sort of setting free and unleashing other people in other parts of their lives to think and talk about race differently and in some sense more potently. they say i can talk about the day laborers down the street, i can talk about the fact that i think the whites are under attack, that our culture is under attack. and most importantly, craig, i think he has opened the door politically for white people, some white people at least, to think of themselves as white people politically and not just think of themselves as americans or liberals or conservatives or

republicans. and that's the real shift there. >> identity politics. >> identity politics for white people. we think usually of that as a term for people in minority groups, for people who are not part of the majority, who organize around being in the minority and try to hold on to their customs, their culture, in defense of it. what's happening here is those same ideas are now being applied to white people. as you know, some parts of the country are actually a minority group now. in hundreds of cities and counties. and of course people read the paper, they can see that we're looking at a future of america as a majority -- or a country in which the majority is not white anymore. i think that is discomfiting to people and they are grappling with it in different ways. >> how has what he's managed to do, how is it different from the wink wink nod nods or the dog calls -- or excuse me, the dog whistles that other politicians have employed in the past? >> well, he doesn't wink wink or

nod nod. and that's the difference, right? he says that mexicans are people coming across the border are rapists. he says we should ban muslims, that they're bad for america. in his own rhetoric he speaks much more bluntly. he says a lot of things that politicians won't say. but in addition, this is really important, craig, when he is asked about eressions of support from white nationalists and anti-semites and neonazis, these marginal figures who are not participants in mainstream politics, when he is asked about them he does this kind of dance. he says, well, i disavow, i disavow, there's a lot of anger out there but i disavow. they take that as a signal as the closest that they can expect in mainstream politics to a signal of support, and that is fascinating to me. >> "new york times" political reporter nick confessore. the game has changed. nick, thank you so much. it's a fascinating read. bruce lavell is the executive director of the national diversity coalition for trump. mr. lavell, let's just start

with what we just talked about there with nick. is donald trump running, has he been running a divisive campaign? >> no. absolutely not. no. none whatsoever. you know, it's amazing how the gentleman before said that -- you know, saying donald trump had some form of rhetoric about mexicans coming across that are rapis rapists. the term is illegal immigration, which has always been mr. trump's message from day one. mexico being a neighboring state with texaco -- with texas -- which is our bordering country, which is where a lot of the drug trafficking and illegal immigration has been coming across the borders. so i have to disagree with that. mr. trump is the only one that's never mentioned race. it's ironic how we're on the subject about him being -- you know, using the word race when he has never made any identification with any particular ethnic group as it relates to race. >> bruce, but you're talking about the comments made at the

early part of the campaign with regards to mexico and what he said about rapists and criminals. but there have been other sthingthings since then. the retweeting of folks who are white supremacists. or the retweeting of things that he's later had this image, for instance, the star in front of the pile of money. you will concede that he's done some things and said some things that can certainly be construe ed as racist. >> you know, respectfully, those are matter of public and media opinions. i know mr. trump. i can tell you that that is totally false. the reason why i say that is our organization, national diversity coalition for trump. if you click on who we are, we have hundreds of thousands of all different ethnic groups from all over the country. korean americans for trump. african-americans for trump.

bul gar yan-americans for trump. we are strong all across this nation. you'll see when we come to this convention how mr. trump has totally transformed the entire gop and has resurrected a lot of folks that are going to join more and more in this party based oven his message and all the policies and things that he has as a vision that will make america great again. >> i wish we had more time. i hope you'll come back on with me next week when the convention starts. >> thank you for having me. black fences have gone up all over the city as police p prepare for thousands of protesters to converge here for next week's convention. coming up, we look at how officers are preparing to serve and protect and how ohio's open carry gun laws may make it a tad more difficult. we were born 100 years ago

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thousands to have protesters also expected to descend on cleveland's for next week's republican national convention. an estimated 2500 officers from as far away as california are being brought in to bolster cleveland's own convention dedicated force. the head of the secret service says they are prepared to deal with ohio's open-carry gun laws. >> at the perimeter, the secure zone of the secret service has set up, but this is not something new. the president and vice president travel in states where these open-carry laws and we abide by that and respect that and we have enough assets in place to accommodate. >> that was joe clans si last year. jacob rascon joins me here in cleveland. what kind of unique preparations are underway?

>> the last-minute preparations involve the steel fences that are going up around the secret service secure zone in which there will be no guns allowed. the event zone outside, they are going to create that next week and will be blocking off a lot more roads and such. they have been preparing for two years now. some of the late details coming out about how the courts are going to be staying out ready to process and handle cases in case there are mass arrests. the hospitals are being prepared. the police, courts, hospitals, they have aum been preparing for this for well over a year. it's just all coming down to the wire and we're learning about some of these details. today on capitol hill, secretary johnson was asked about the possibility of unrest and violence. here's what he said. i am concerned about the prospect of demonstrations getting out of hand. i'm concerned about the possibility of violence. i think everybody here is. craig? >> the police chief here in cleveland saying he would prefer

folks not bring guns up to the convention. jacob rascon in cleveland, thank you. we're coming to you live from cleveland, ohio. we'll be spending a lot of time here over the next week. the city that coined the phrase "rock and roll." home to the first rock concert and rock n roll hall of fame. you're watching msnbc. we'll be right back. if you love crab and who doesn't then seize the day already. crabfest is back at red lobster with so many kinds of crab and the most crab dishes of the year. so dive into whatever floats your crab-loving boat. like crab lover's dream. crack open tender snow and king crab legs, and twirl creamy crab alfredo. or try the new alaska bairdi crab dinner. sweet and straight from the icy waters of alaska, you've gotta get it... to really get it. but it won't last forever, so hurry in.

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