>> all right. kasie hunt in annandale, virginia. we are continuing to monitor here at msnbc. the key story of the day. who will donald trump turn to for his vp slot? no word yet. we will let them know all the details as we though them. i've steve kornacki. chuck todd will pick it up next on mtp daily, that starts now. >> if it's thursday, the suspense is killing us. is the countdown on or is the decision already been made? number one, has yet to announce who is going to be his number two. this is mtp daily and it starts right now. >> i've already got people mocking my puns. i've got two pence for you on that one. i'm chuck todd here in

washington. welcome to mtp daily. is this the day? as donald trump prepares to unveil his pick tomorrow, his team in cleveland is battling a potential convention coup or at least attempt to quiet the uprising. we are four days to convention. less than 18 hours until trump promised to publicly unveil his running mate. a lot of leaks, hints, suggestions, all evidence points towards mike pence has trump's pick for vp. but not so fast. sources have been telling our owe kelly o'donnell that decision has not been made final yet by mr. trump. there are differing views within trump's own inner circle and his family each has somebody they prefer among the three finalists. pence, chris christie and newt gingrich. top trump aide said that trump hasn't called anyone. we are watching play out right now is the divide within trump's

inner circle. trump and some of his family may have reservations about pence. something that christie or gingrich may be better for trump's personality. trump jr said his father hasn't made a decision. here is trump jr with katy tur. >> a lot of it is how they will work with my father. so much is based on personality and deciding how that will fit. knowing him as well as we do. he is a unique guy. very different than so many of your typical politicians out there. >> on the other hand, it is clear is the professional operatives around trum thap love the idea of pence on the ticket. he could be what helps unify the frack toured party. almost as if they are trying to will the pick of pence. and it could very well still be pence. the date for him to remove himself from the ballot could be tomorrow. it is possible he is expecting to get out on the ticket or he

would drop out regardless of what happens with trump. he was in deep trouble before he began openly youaudition is for another job and how to get the toothpaste back into the tube if he doesn't get it and say oh, wait a minute. >> mike pence who is reported to be one of the other people in the running a good man and good governor, but he endorsed cruz. what do you think the calculation is? >> i don't think that should disqualify you. if you had a different choice early in the 17-person race, you had a different choice. i did. and it shouldn't preclude you from being considered as to who is best to help us win the race and who is best to serve the country once we get done. i don't think that should preclude him. >> i think that my appeal is probably more national. i have some appeal in virtually every state. i think that mike pence would have a huge midwestern appeal.

so if you are trying to compete for western pennsylvania, ohio, michigan, wisconsin, missouri, illinois, there's a certain value to an indiana candidate, i think. >> i have to say it's been stunning to watch newt gingrich in all this. he's really been an open source during all this vp stuff. it's not trump that's been doing it. it's been gingrich on that front. anyway, something to follow for later. katy tur has been covering the trump campaign from the beginning. kelly o'donnell is in the thick of the action in cleveland where trump's campaign apparatus is gathered right now. katy, let me begin with you. is it fair to say this is a divide between the professional operatives and personal advisers who when it comes to pence for gingrich? >> i'm not sure it is fair to say that. i just spent a long time talking to donald trump jr and i didn't get the sense he was pulling more for christie or newt

gingrich than he was for pence. we had a frank conversation about the benefits of each one of the candidates and frankly the benefits for governor pence right now seems to be all encompassing in a way that benefits for chris christie or newt gingrich are not at the moment. both of them while they are a great attack dogs and while they are good at political strategy, no one knows washington better certainly than newt gingrich, they are their own men. they are loose cannons at some point. and it is not necessarily clear that campaign is going to want to deal with a second headline maker in addition to donald trump. ultimately this is donald trump's campaign. governor pence on the other hand is more earnest. he stays on message. he is not making headlines the way trump does. and frankly chuck they were very impressed with his ability to go on the attack on stage in indiana just the other day. >> kelly o'donnell, you're in the thick of this rules committee fight. it is clear that trump people are more nervous about what is

going on there than they had let on before this meeting started or we wouldn't have had the delays that we had. how much is pence an elixir for some wavering delegates? >> some people are looking for a sign. a reassurance in the choices that donald trump makes and from the outside many say that a midwestern governor with legislative experience with credibility and social conservatives part of the party would do that. would be kind of a softer tone in terms of demeanor and personality and that would give a sense of reassurance that would make some feel more comfortable in resisting the sort of turbulent delegate moves. that is something that people are looking for. at the same time, there are different phases of this, chuck. is there a pick that helps you get through the convention? is there a pick that helps you fight the campaign? is there a pick that helps you governmentern? that really are different choices. >> two final questions for both of you. kelly o'donnell, i will start

with you. mike pence has reelection. it is my understanding he won't just run for reelection, he will resign his seat because of limitation sitting governors have for fund-raising. what is going on in the pence world in the next 24 hours? it is a little bit of a domino effect if he is the pick. >> one of the things that's hard is even with the whiff of him being selected others are lining up looking to try to run for that seat if he vacates it on the ballot in november. i've heard conflicting things from pence world about whether he would resign the seat or not. that is maybe not wanting to send signals ahead of an initial announcement and if pence were not chosen how it would look to voters in indiana. there is a lot of repercussions. it is not one job, it is two in pence world. >> katy tur, how is the family

handling it that he is more open than donald trump could have been? >> if they are upset, they are not saying it. i would go back to what we were saying a minute ago. it does underscore that newt gingrich is unpredictable and he is one that will go his own way. he has also been quick to criticize donald trump when he disagreed with him and new audio surfacing where gingrich criticized trump for fourth grade vocabulary and also compared him to the kardashians. and certainly that stuff doesn't help them. there is some concern behind the scenes that you know, once the pick does happen for someone like chris christie or newt gingrich that they would take on their own persona and try to maybe move forward with their own agenda. parallel to donald trump. that being said, i have heard this from every source i've spoken with. if a newt gingrich or governor pence or chris christie are not chosen for this vp slot, i've

been assured that all of them will have some sort of place in the trump administration. and chris christie even said he plans on being by his side regardless if he does win. >> all right. katy tur, trump tower, kelly o'donnell in cleveland. interesting couple of -- well, what have we got here, about 18 hours at this point until an actual pick. joined now by mike ferguson who has a line directly to trump tower. "politico" dubbed him the trump whisperer and it goes deeper than that. congressman, first of all, good to see you. >> good to see you. is it happenstance you were with mike pence or you were golfing at a trump -- fill me in on the story that got you in the middle of pence world? >> one of donald trump's golf clubs is in my old congressional district in new jersey. i was up there a number of days ago. my friend, mike pence, was there that day. i got to chat with him.

>> when he was auditioning. >> he was. mike is a very good friend. we were chattinging a little bit. and donald wanted to know when we were going to play some golf so we ended up playing golf. >> you were in that foursome? >> no, we played some time later. they just finished playing golf. >> so he picked your brain with pence because you add relationship with him earlier on. >> correct. >> walk us through it. a lot of us can picture newt and christie being someone that hangs with trump. even though they can but heads, can you picture them. pence and him seem like two different personalities. why would this work? >> they all have strengths. that's why i had this c conversation with donald trump. chris christie is is a good friend. i supported him. mike pence. gingrich i don't know too well. i have known him over the years. >> you don't serve in congress without seeing newt.

>> but they all have strengths. incredible skills and talent. that's why they've been successful in the different areas they've served. but they are very different. had some interesting conversations about the differences between them and what their strengths are. >> what did you tell him the strengths were pour pence as governing partner. >> well i won't get into specific conversations but anyone who knows mike pence knows he is a thoughtful considerate humble guy. he has been very, very successful. very successful career in the house. elected governor of his state. he has had an ability to really connect with the base of the party and the mainstream of the republican party in different ways. on fiscal issues. on foreign policy issues. social issues. he is sort of the full package. when you think about somebody who has maybe has the ability to reunite that old reagan coalition and republican party of con sefb tifs of different kind, mike pence does a lot to

appeal to all of those. >> my first encounters is a club for growth kind of guy. and club for growth with donald trump when it comes to fiscal policy couldn't be further apart. how does donald trump square that or how does mike pence square that, particularly with fair trade. >> one of the quality that makes mike pence so attractive to anyone who get to know him, is that he is thoughtful and calm and thinks through things, but he is also very loyal. if he has a disagreement with you, he want to work it out. he want to bring people together. he has strongly held positions. a principled guy. but an bomb thrower. he won't pick a fight with you in public. if you have a difference with him, he want to work out a solution. >> it is interesting to me. some people say it is a total ideal log and on the other hand

usually the two don't go together. how is he not tagged as conservative sell-out over the years. for quote unquote serving in leadership. >> he has done both things you just described. here he ran, chairman of the republican study committee. republican conservatives. >> some people i would say the freedom -- >> precursor. >> yes. study group still exists. >> right, right. but mike pence was elected chairman of the republican study committee. he served in that capacity. also elected as a member of the republican leadership of the entire h republican conference. so he served as our conference chairman. he is a guy who is very skilled in that sense. he has the ability to listen. bring people together. everyone knows, anyone who deals with mike pence knows he is principled and he knows what he believes in. but also someone to find solutiones it bring people together. >> you think he is a comfortable number two? when you're an executive it is tough to say yes i'll be number two now. >> if he is selected, and there are many reports that says he is

the pick, i think he will serve the trump ticket very well. i think he is smart, capable, weal thought of on beth side of the aisle. even people who disagree recognize he is an honest broker and someone who is hope and wants it listen and try to find solutions. he is not a bomb thrower. he wants to govern. he want to lead. good to see you. >> you too. >> trump and pence whisperer. thanks for coming. >> thanks. >> we will have a lot more of what is going on in cleveland. including rules committee tension. that after the break. and later, more on the undecided voter and shocking new focus group i want to share with you from ohio. plus, one of the choices from none of the above crowd. green party presidential nominee jill stein. all of that coming up in a packed show. we'll be right back. americans are buying more and more of everything online. and so many businesses rely on the united states postal service to get it there.

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this year the road to the republican nomination goes through cleveland but as always the road to the white house might also go through ohio.

he check out the daily map and it is a tale of two ohios. the wall street journal marist poll shows a divided street. cleveland, columbus and cincinnati also encompassing et daton market by the way. trump is cleaning up in the ohio valley and north and western parts of the state. in addition to geographical divide there is significant divides on race in ohio. trump, we couldn't believe this, he technically didn't get a single percentage upon the in our poll among african-american voters. at zero. clinton got 88%. everyone else is undecided. trump is up 10 point among white voters in ohio. despite that it is a dead heat in the buckeye state. look at numbers. a whopping 21% saying either neither other or undecided. coming up, more on who those undecided ohio voters are and what they really think about clinton and trump. we'll be right back.

i mean i really see a lot of great - you know, when you watch your show and all of the other shows... while donald trump watched tv, as secretary of state, hillary clinton negotiated a cease fire in gaza. a reduction in nuclear weapons... took on vladimir putin... and stood up against the trafficking of human beings. a steady leader in an unsteady world.

mike pence's name is floated out there for mtp. the group called free the delegates is trying to lay the ground work for a convention coup. during rules committee meeting pence is a name that could calm skiddish delegates. it appears the stop trump movement does not have enough support to even force a vote on key parts of its agenda. rnc may extend an olive branch to cruz delegates by may making future contests more conservatives. keeping independents from participating talks will go into late in the night with the dump trump proposals likely now to be on the docket for tomorrow, essentially during the vp roll-out. joining me now by republican

super lawyer, deal maker extraordinare, mr. ginsburg. >> hi. >> today seems like the anti-trump crowd on this rules committee meeting a little more -- little stronger than the trump campaign anticipated? >> i think perhaps. there was an awful lot of maneuvering that took place today. there was a three-hour delay to fix a printer. there were negotiations off the floor. so i think probably going late into the night, the number of trump folks would have a test vote of at some point that will be challenging for the web team. >> my experience is this, you delay taking a vote, if you don't have the votes. and it sounds like the rnc is determined to prevent a minority report and just to explain to people that would basically take 28 votes, essentially against what the trump contingent would want, to get a vote on the floor

of the convention. is it your sense that the rnc working with trump is buying time to see if they can secure enough votes to prevent a minority report? >> i think the delay this morning with a is to try and get a bigger alignment for the rnc or for trump. i think you need to look at the rules committee as rules box. there are four sides of it. there is the republican national committee with its interest. and its power has been challenged by a set of grass roots conservatives. in an attempt to decentralize their power. that's the second side. then you have the never trump folks, third side. they want their test votes. and lastly, the trump people who i think main goal is unity and no minority reports. that's difficult to come up with the unity message. so sometimes delay can help that. >> what was interesting to me, ben, that's what i can't figure out, you really just described this well of the four sides to

this box, is it looked like for a while never trump and the cruz forces that wanted to change rules for 2020 would be in lock step, a coalition, to each help the other. is that go not going to happen now? is cuccinelli trying to stay out of stop trump? >> it isn't clear yet. the test votes or votes that have happened so far, keeping the power out of the rnc and change rules of the primary election between conventions opposed by grass roots conservatives, only got 23 out of 112 votes. and an attempt to bar lobbyists from being members of the rnc failed on a voice vote. so so far, it appears that the cuccinelli grass roots folks are on their own not aided to by trump. trump and rnc people are working together. >> and so all right, put on your hat on this.

your experience at this. what's this look like tomorrow and does mike pence matter here? that if pence is the pick, it somehow calms a bunch of republicans done that would in the never trump world? does it matter? >> so i'm not sure that the vice presidential pick matters. i mean, trump movement and never trump movement has been fuelled with donald trump. i'm not sure the vice presidential pick does matter. especially if the never trump people and grass roots conservatives are not in this together, which they don't appear to be. >> well, and so then tomorrow, what happens? when do we see the first never trump vote? >> that will probably occur somewhere in mid morning when they deal with the rule that binds delegates. rule 16. an attempt to insert a conscious clause into that letting delegates to either become

unbound or vote their conscious. there could be votes later in the day over that as well. and i think there are a number of votes that will occur when they get to the procedural rules for this convention that will also be test for the never trump movement. >> i have to say, ben, everything about today tells me that reince priebus and the trump people have much less control over this than they ever thought. >> well, i think there were any time you get a three-hour break, that's going to raise questions. but i also think that mind-set of every republican gathering i've been at for a number of years has been that you do coalesce at the end. there is a lot of tribal pressure for that to occur. that's what the rnc and trump forces are all relying on. >> we should see and figure the closer the convention gets perhaps more pressure builds.

ben ginsberg, the person we are hoping is the fly on the wall. impersonate a fly, will you? >> who knows. >> exactly. thank you, ben. >> thanks. >> meanwhile, nbc news just learned that senator marco rubio will address delegates next week in what we expect to be videotaped remarks. little bit of news on that front. wasn't sure if marco rubio would be at that convention or not. >> hillary clinton slips in polles. but her loss is not donald trump's gain. so what happens? do they stay home? go third party? eventually go trump? want to talk to green party jill stein. keep it right here. ♪

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less than 18 hours away from donald trump's official vp announcement. msnbc has an exclusive sit down with one of the top three in the running for that final number two spot. msnbc analyst nicole wallace sat down for a conversation. you will see more of that tonight at 6:00 p.m. eastern. meanwhile, much more ahead on mtp daily, including all those new undecided voters. do te have another choice on the ballot? they have multiple choices. you will meet dr. jill stein right after this. but here's susan lee with the cnbc market wrap. >> stocks rising across the board. dow soaring 134 points.

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obviously we have been hinting that signs are pointing to pence's trump's vp pick. here is another one. we can now report mike pence is on his way to new york. on a plane right now. he will be landing pretty soon. we are keeping an eye on it. if it walks like a vp pick, quacks like a vp pick, if it's flying now like a vp pick perhaps we should start now finally coming to the conclusion that maybe it definitely is.

obviously with donald trump you want it wait until you hear it out of his mouth. meanwhile, i want to talk more about the campaign. every election cycle we talk about the undecided factor. but this year more than before undecided voters will have a greater impact. we have fwo two candidates with high name id. our latest nbc wall street mare al battle ground state polls neither candidate breaks 50%. in ohio neither breaks 40%. look at third row. close to 20% of respondent's say they are undecided or won't vote for either. in a new poll trump and clinton are tied. and 19% say they don't know or won't vote at all. undecided will make this vote. cliche, we know. there is a focus group with undecided voters last night in cleveland. they found at least among this group that it is an uphill battle for both trump and clinton.

take a look. >> why are you still undecided? >> what's missing? >> the country needs to be unified. and neither party wants to do that. only way we are successful is to come together and work together. >> i feel like that trump for most part is dividing more than pulling people together which is what this country needs the most especially at this time. >> i'm undecided because honestly i'm embarrassed of both of them. >> by showing, how many feel embarrassed for the country by the candidates we have right now. >> i would like to see both in a room locked up together and see if they would solve a puzzle together let alone problems of the united states. >> do you wish the field had two different candidates other than hillary or trump? how many say yes? >> yes. >> there you have it. unanimous. when asked if they prefer two other candidates all 29 people in the room raised their hands.

of all the years, why not this year's third party candidate? here is what the focus group had to say about that. >> how many are open to thinking green or libertarian? raise your hands. >> i feel like he knows what he is talking about and is more prepared it handle issues facing our country. >> i don't know what i will do. i don't want either one of them. >> joined by a third party option, dr. jill stein, the presumptive nominee for green party. dr. stein, thanks for coming on the show. >> great to be with you, chuck. >> you heard the focus group of folks. make your pitch to the 29 voters? why should they still vote if they don't like the top two choices? >> why should they still vote? because our democracy needs a moral compass. our democracy needs our values and voices and people have rejected this rigged political

system that's given us this rigged economy that is throwing people under the bus. i'm a physician, not a politician. i used to practice clinical medicine. now i practice political medicine. because it is the mother of all illnesses. and we have it fix our sick political system. so we can solve all the other crises that are threatening life limb and very survival and i'm the only candidate in this race that is not corrupted by the big money that created this rigged system. i dent take money from lobbyists or super pacs. i'm the one candidate that has the unique libber it i to stand up for what it is that people desperately need and want that is a jobs program that will solve the crises of our economy at the same time that it solves the crisis of climate change and that will make wars for oil obsolete and create foreign policy based on international

law and human rights. i will cancel student debt like we did for the crooks on wall street. we need to do for our younger generation. this would be the stimulus package of our dreams. and we can create health care as a human right. >> you know, it is interesting to hear you use phrases that beth bernie sanders and trump use often. rigged economy. rigged political system. your agenda sounds a lot like bernie sanders. if you were democrat would you vote for sanders over clinton? >> oh, absolutely. and you know, i in fact invited senator sanders to join me in running on the green party ticket. he is a life-long democrat. or at least -- >> life-long, i think he just joined the party about a year and a half ago. >> as long as he has been in congress he has been caucusing with dem krts and working with democrats. that is his party of allegiance. he doesn't understand or believe in independent third party politics. which is odd because that's where he started. but he doesn't support that kind of politics now.

but in terms of our agendas, they are very similar and there's a huge movement that senator sanders helped to lift up. that movement is looking for another place to go. and it is as if he endorsed our campaign because truth to tell, when he endorsed hillary, he opened the flood gates and his supporters are now pouring into our campaign through every possible means imaginable as donors, as volunteers, and on our social media. >> now look, i know you are hoping to get 15%, hoping to get in the debates. and you know, we're certainly including you in our polling to make sure that the data is there. to support or not support whatever goes on. but let me ask you this, are you comfortable, if you pull enough support from the left, are you comfortable having that, if that elects donald trump president, are you comfortable with that outcome? >> i'm not comfortable with donald trump as president. and i'm not comfortable with hillary clinton as president. and i'm most not comfortable with a political system that

gives us two really lethal choices and says here, pick your weapon of self destruction. because all the terrible things that donald trump says, hillary clinton in fact has done in various degrees. like the war in libya. what more catastrophic war could you possibly have? that's as bad as anything. the rush to a nuclear weapons even nuclear arms race, unfortunately this is what hillary clinton wants to do over syria where she wants a no-fly zone which basically means going to war with russia in nuclear armed country over syria. and on the climate, same thing. hillary clinton promoted fracking. all over the world. democrats give lip service but unfortunate they are all of the above policy has been an utter disaster. i think it is important to look behind the rhetoric and to know that there are 42 million young people out there who are locked in debt who have no place to go. except my campaign which will cancel that debt. that alone is enough to win this

election. >> let me ask you about canceling the debt. what about the companies that hold that debt? >> well, largely you can say the same thing -- >> how about wall street? >> where does that money come from? taxpayers? >> you can do a quantitative easing. how did we bailout wall street? we gave them $4.5 billion and more. it doesn't cost the taxpayers. it is expanding the money supply which is a terrible thing to do unless you've made the economy pro productive and that's exactly what we would do by canceling the debt for young people to enable them to actually work on what they are trained to do, what they are good at and what they love. this is the economy of the future. >> dr. jill stein. i will pause it here. i hope to have you on again. i think i will. very interesting. this is an electorate that seems to be interested in seeing more choices. thanks for being on. >> thank you. good talking. >> i want to get in here. we have breaking news.

we are getting reports of an attack of some sort in niece, france. a truck drove into a crowd. it is pastille day celebrations. a current official says dozens of deaths have been reported. they urged people to stay home. celebrations. a current official says dozens of deaths have been reported. they urged people to stay home. of deaths have been reported. they urged people to stay home. joining me on the phone, on the ground in niece, a long time veteran reporter and colleague, bob franken. bob, what can you tell us on what is going on there? >> reporter: chuck, this is the aftermath, immediate aftermath after fireworks display to commemorate bastille day in france. when witnesses tell me that a big truck of some sort went on to the pedestrian walk way by the mediterranean on the promenade here in nice. and started mowing down people who were walking.

one witness said the truck just barely missed him. i counted for over a dozen bodies of people covered with sheets and obviously officials scrambling to get there and try and help those who are injured but have not been killed. no word on what the truck -- happened to the truck. and we also have no word, other than speculation about whether this is some sort of coordinate aid tack. >> and what time did this happen? >> this happened about 11:00 local time. remember, we are six hours ahead of east coast. and it was immediately as i said, after the fireworks display had been complete. >> do you get a sense of, what are the streets now like? is there weird calm? is there everybody scattered? or people back at it? give me a sense of what is going on now. >> well, at the moment, the streets up and down the

promenade are empty, except for emergency vehicles, people trying to work with the bodies and the injured, that type of thing. what the police were doing is telling people to get off the beach which is immediately below. and of course, some people did that. others raced away screaming that type of thing. as i said, one person was waiting in a rhett raunt downstairs his family. he said the truck barely missed them. >> obviously for folks who haven't read "tale of two cities" or know about bastille day, their fourth of july or equivalent of. let me ask, bob, where is the truck now? did the truck get away or did they stop the truck? >> well, nobody seems to be able to answer that. the truck was not anywhere that i could see. and i could see traps a hundred yards up the promenade.

so either it got away, or unfortunately i can't tell you. it is out of our sight. >> bob, stick with me here. i want to bring in kyle perry who has been monitoring the social media traffic internationally. and kyle, what have you seen? and what can you tell us? >> yeah, well first on the truck, there are photos of the truck in what i would say is sort of police custody on the street. it is surrounded by members of the french police. and when i say truck i want our viewers to imagine an 18-wheeler. like a big freight truck. an pick-up truck. we are talking commercial size truck. and the front of the truck shows quite a bit of damage. one thing that french police are initially reporting is that truck itself was used as a weapon. reports on this, the best we have right now, but as we look at things to look out for, the

fact that people are being told to stay in their homes. the fact that nice is on lock down would lead us to believe that authorities still think this is an ongoing situation. the concern is that there is more than just one person involved. this is some kind of simultaneous attack. but it is ongoing. so we just don't know. but the city is on lock down. people are told to go to the beach. and it appears as though this very large commercial truck was used as some kind of a weapon. >> let me bring in somebody we talked to a lot from paris. chris dickey of the "daily beast." chris, msnbc contributor. we are getting reports here. what can you tell us? what are the federal authorities telling you? >> well we don't really know exactly what is going on in terms of motive behind the truck driver crashing into all these people. but it doesn't seem to have been an accident. there seems to be some intent here. and certainly a concern this is

terrorist-related. . that's one of the reasons the city is on lock down, nice is on lock down. we have been hearing helicopters here in paris as well, where there are also fireworks going on. i think there's a lot of concern that there may be more than one attack. this is indeed a terrorist incident. >> chris, was there any indication, any you know how before major holidays here in this country, whether the fourth of july or 9/11. was there heightened alert that french authorities generic heightened alert or any potential specific things that they had been nervous about? >> chuck, they've been nervous for quite a while. obviously after the attacks in november and "charlie hebdo" attacks before those, this country is on very high alert. we just had the european soccer championships, there was a lot of worry that there would be attack.

there was a collect you'ive sig relief when the finals were over and nothing happened. now we have this happening in nice. i was there today. it was crowded with people. it would have been a potential target. that was not it. this is the kind of environment where everyone is looking a all the time at what could be a potential target and you realize anything could be in this case. people on the promenade right along the sea, looking at fireworks, off the coast of nice. and all of a sudden they get hit by a truck. >> let me ask you this, chris, before i go to our london bureau. is there special significance that you can think of why nice would be targeted? is it simply a soft target and not paris? or is there anything different about nice that we should be on the alert for? >> well, yes. actually, nice has been a place, one of the cities in france where there's been a lot of jihadist organizing over the

years. one of the principal recruiters was based there in the general area of southern france around the nice area. you've had a number of cells developed mainly to send people to syria and fight in other places. but there's always a chance they will come back. only to inspire other people to take action on frencht territor. so nice is one of those cities. it is a hot bed of jihadist activity. >> that's very helpful context here. let me move to our london bureau. kelly has been reviewing a lot of new information coming in. kelly, just bring us up to speed. >> reporter: hey, chuck, yeah. we are trying to get a lot of this information confirmed. we are basing what we are hearing here on french media reports. tv saying several people are wounded and many dead. these are their records.

we haven't yet confirmed this. but we do understand that there were at some point, shots fired potentially between police and suspects. we're not sure how many in a truck. the first reports that we heard, chuck, were that this truck drove into the crowd along the beachfront promenade in nice where people were celebrating baf bastille day. there were shots firing. you saw scenes on social media of people fleeing down the street. people in upper balconies looking down, asking what's happened, then the ensuing panic. we understand now from french police -- sorry, from french media that there were shots fired, that there appeared to be at least some victims and the mayor in nice is urging people to stay indoors, that there is

still potentially some danger there, but a lot of this is unfolding as we speak. we are trying to get confirmation on a lot of this. >> we have this story covered about as well as we can at this point in time. stick with me here. keep monitoring. let me go to nice, where nbc producer bob franken is. i hope you're still with us. you have heard some of the other reporting now about the truck, about various things. what do you see and hear? any updates you can offer us? >> well, the one thing i would observe is that the story of a lockdown, it's difficult to really lock down a city like this, but people are being urged to stay home. on the pedestrian area where i was for awhile, the police were insisting that people go down to the beach. the impression that they left is that they were not at all certain that there might not be another attack, another vehicle that would try and mow people down. that kind of thing. as for the shots, some people

said they heard them, others said they did not. that might have happened further up as the truck was being spotted and brought to a stop. >> all right. that, i appreciate. let me go to cal perry. i know you have been updating, looking on more social media sources. anything new to add? all right. cal is gathering information. christopher dickey, let me go back to you. it was an important context you added that nice has been a hotbed essentially for extremists, for terrorists. why nice? how did that happen? >> well, i think that when we're talking about large immigrant communities, they settle in various places. it's not always predictable. they don't always go to the capital of the country. sometimes they are in provincial cities. you have a very large north african population throughout the southern coastal area, mediterranean shore of france. marseille, many people call it

an arab city. it really isn't but there's a very large arab population and there is also a large arab population in nice. it's not in the part that the tourists spend most of their time in but once you get into the outskirts, there are very large arab and muslim communities, and among them, you will find people who trying to build a jihadist base. >> bob franken, i want to go back to you here. have you heard gunshots or has this all been the chaos created by this truck mowing people down? >> have i heard gunshots? i did not. >> bob franken. i'm hoping to talk to him. >> i'm sorry? >> go ahead. >> the one thing i would add is that perhaps a reason for selecting nice is an extended weekend, the bastille day

weekend, so there were many more crowds here than you might expect in july. of course, august, this place is very busy. but that might have been a reason and i underline the word might, that perhaps it was chosen. because there was quite a bit of -- quite a large crowd here. in addition to which i will point out that there was a heavy police presence but it's the kind of police presence that just about everywhere in the world we are getting used to now because of the fear of terrorists. >> christopher dickey, i just think -- i know the exhaustion level americans have. this is a lot for france to take in. quite a bit of terrorism threats and terrorism in the last year. >> well, yeah, in the last really couple of years. it's hugely disspiriting. people find themselves looking over their shoulder all the time. they come back, they try and spring back quickly, they did after "charlie hebdo," they did

after november 13th and the bataclan massacre, but it does wear on people. i was just talking to a woman today who has a place here and comes back and forth all the time and she was talking about all the places she just doesn't want to go because she thinks they might be targets. after awhile, in a country that's already demoralized by all kinds of other factors, including its economy, that has a hugely depressing effect on the population. >> let me go back to kelly in london. i know you are monitoring -- i am told now she is busy news gathering there. i know you are news gathering, last time i wanted to check in. what more do you have for me. >> the various questions we are asking, on the gunfire question which is interesting, local media in france originally reported that there was some kind of exchange of gunfire but

what is complicating this entire thing is that it's bastille day of course and there was a massive fireworks display. initial reports are often wrong, especially in these kind of situations. but again, the thing that the french police and french officials are making clear to everyone, and we heard this from christopher in paris, is that they're not sure if this is over yet or not, and they are always going to operate under the assumption that there could be more coming, whether it's in nice or paris or even across europe. certainly they were on alert and i know we have been sort of talking about this, but any national holiday now is seemingly under more of a focus. >> as you can see, we have some new video in that we are showing. clearly in the upper right-hand corner of your tv screen, you see, we are sort of reracking but you see people fleeing, taking the warnings that were there, fleeing for the beach, it appears. you can see there right down on

what looks like their version of an ocean drive type of thing there. my apologies, i have never been to nice so i don't know the names of these streets yet. it does appear you can see people fleeing in this and sort of you can feel as if you see people just watching on edge, waiting for if there is a second shoe to drop. that looks like a road that you have people busy trying to escape from, not trying to hang around. bob franken, we have new pictures here. it does look as if people have fled the streets but are sort of watching. >> well, they are watching because they don't exactly know what was going on. but there was -- i don't want to use the word stampede. it was more controlled than that. but people were running away from that -- >> bob, the footage we are showing, you're right, i wouldn't say stampede but it was running. it was fleeing. >> they were running.

meantime, the police as they regrouped were trying to get people down to the beach. there was a definite worry that there might be a second vehicle. there's still a definite worry that there might be some other form of attack. right now, what you have is emergency vehicles going up and down. i would suspect that all of the injured have been taken away and right now, other than the sirens from the police vehicles, there's kind of a calm. it's very, very empty because the thousands of people who were here have fled and they fled quickly. >> christopher, we know there is more security on a day like today for the same reasons why we would have more security on the fourth of july, particularly in a new york or washington or something like that. did you feel the extra security presence today in paris? >> no, but maybe that's because we just get numb to it after awhile. certainly after the national

parade today, planes flying over, military marching through the streets, they shut down the champs-elysees, a huge avenue that runs through the center of paris, and turned it into a pedestrian street. so there were thousands and thousands of people on that street and it was not a particularly strong show of force by the police or the army. we are used to having army in full combat gear walk around on the streets here. there was nothing special. i think by the way that we need to think of the way the police think and the way the security people think, and they're not only going to worry right now that there will be a second attack or another attack in nice, they are going to worry there's going to be another attack somewhere else in france. whether here in paris, in marseille or lyle, or wherever you can think of. it's known terrorist organizations, whether al qaeda or so-called islamic state likes

to carry out multiple attacks because it has an added demoralizing factor. >> cal perry, are you seeing any evidence of other coastal cities in france that are taking precautions or creating unofficial curfews or anything like that? >> no, but i am seeing major cities in europe starting to ramp up their security, not just in france, but germany in particular. >> bob franken, you heard that description -- okay. i just lost bob. i have cal. cal, you heard that description of a show of force that was on the street. what are you seeing? you're saying other cities are preparing. what have you seen in retrospect where people are saying well, we had this extra security here today or there? >> yeah. keep in mind also in europe, i'm working the phones trying to make my way back to the office, but keep in mind