for trump to take. whether he can stay on it, we'll see. >> steve schmidt, your reaction. first to the trump speech, and then to mike pence's debut. >> i think it's interesting, as you consider donald trump's speech. what will we see when he accepts the nomination of the republican party. will he be on a teleprompter. will he be reading from script. will he be disciplined, or the meanderi ining prose that we sa this morning. not to say his stream of consciousness is not effective, and not effective communication, it clearly is, it clearly has been for republican voters. my view of mike pence's speech is that fairly pedestrian. he needs a lot of work before he gets up and talks to 30 million, 40 million americans who will be watching his acceptance speech later this week. very clear that they don't have a first-rate speechwriter working on that address yet.

so these conventions are a big deal, as they begin to shape the general election campaign. certainly, donald trump wants to come out of this republican convention with a substantial bounce. he wants to come out with the early polls next week when the democrats begin with the lead. so they have to have a crisp, clear message about change. and one of the things that i did not think mike pence did today that he's going to have to do as an effective vice presidential candidate, in particular for donald trump, is this, he has to litigate the question of donald trump's fitness for office. this is how hillary clinton is going to attack donald trump. they're going to say that donald trump is unfit to be commander in chief. and mike pence is essentially the chief lawyer, arguing the case to the american people that in fact donald trump is not only fit, he's a capable change agent

who can get the country going in the right direction. and so i didn't think that their chemistry was on today. i didn't think that their speeches were choreographed with each other. they were too disparate speeches. coming together for this occasion, you know, but i think they have a lot of work to do in terms of synchronizing their messaging. >> steve, that takes a lot of staff, and a staff structure that by all accounts has not existed heretofor with the trump campaign. >> i think you made the point earlier, brian, that this is the room in which ronald reagan announced his successful candidacy in 1979, that begat the reagan revolution, that was the high point of the modern conservative era. and for that not to be mentioned is not a deliberate sleight, it's just that nobody on the trump campaign had the

wherewithal, couldn't wrap it into the speech. coordinating the vice presidential and presidential campaigns, activities, it does take staff, it does take personnel. we know the trump campaign is completely unorthodox, and it's built around the personality and the communication skills of the guy at the top of the ticket. >> robert costa, political reporter, washington post, he's been watching from cleveland. robert. >> good to join you again, brian. what we're watching here is donald trump trying to get used to the fact that he has to make an overture to the party establishment, and to the evangelicals, the christian right within the republican party. both of those blocks remain uncomfortable with donald trump. he made clear in his opening remarks, which were extensive, that he needed to do stg to try to bring the party together. but there are a few asides about governor peps himself, about his biography. donald trump is just getting to

know the indiana governor. >> and katy tur was in the room, in the ball room at the new york hilton. katy, was there anything different about today, having covered countless trump events on the road like it? >> certainly ditch. this was a room not filled with donald trump supporters from rallies, but rather a number of gop -- new york gopers, friends and families. and then just tourists who came in literally from off the street, brian. they heard about it and they asked if they could get in. secret service swept them and they sat down, a little bit gob smacked that they were able to get in so easily and an event that didn't have more inveetes here. that being said, it was typical in the way donald trump spent a good portion of the time talking about, frankly, himself, relitigating the primaries, talking about all the deals he's made. also, perpetuating this idea that he was against the iraq war when he was not. he spent 29 minutes before he

got to governor mike pence. he said part of 9 reason why he chose him is because he needed party unity, that he's an outsider and he needed somebody who would smooth over relations in washington. governor pence also said he was told wednesday night about the -- about being chosen as vp. that goes against what donald trump said thursday night on fox news, saying that he still wasn't decided, that he hadn't made his final decision, that it was still down to newt gingrich, chris christie and governor pence. it begs the question, who exactly told governor pence that he was the running mate and whether donald trump was not telling the truth on fox, and trying to continue this suspense. or whether he was in fact still waffling. i also want to say that donald trump spent 29 minutes before he -- talking about himself mostly -- before he went to governor pence. mitt romney spent 8 minutes

before getting to paul ryan. the majority of his remarks were focused around ryan and the job he did in wisconsin and how he was able to stand up to the establishment, not necessarily stand up to the establishment, but not be somebody divisive in washington, but how he would bring everybody together. we talked about george w. bush, he introduced dick cheney after just seven minutes. spending much of the time praising dick cheney's values. and dick cheney's qualifications for that office. donald trump did not necessarily do that. much of the speech was what we see every day, or most days when we go to these rallies. it's about him, what he has done, the fight that he has gone through to get this nomination. and now he won. and how basically this nomination is his, not anybody else's, not his running mate's. it will be his platform and his ideas alone. >> katy, back up one quick second you said at the top. it was possible to be in new york city on summer vacation

today on avenue of the americas, and come into this event as a tourist from the street. >> absolutely. only in new york, brian. i spoke to a family, a father and his two kids, he's from knoxville, tennessee. he said he's staying in this hotel. he heard about it, he walked downstairs, asked if he could come in, and was allowed to do so. went through secret service, no threat. a little bit surprised that he was able to just walk in here, in his words, see history being made. he was a big fan of reagan. his son was wearing a reagan-bush t-shirt. his daughter was named reagan. he's also a big fan of donald trump and he's excited to have governor pence on the ticket because he's going to add a little bit of stability, a little bit of washington know-how, legislative know-how that he said donald trump does not have. >> well, i suppose that's a great thing. and democracy at work. katy tur in the room here in new york. katy, thanks.

out to joy reed in cleveland. joy, to distill chris matthews' reaction, i suppose the opposition, the clinton campaign can view this through a kind of rigid traditional lens because the rules have changed. >> the rules have changed, in a sense they haven't. i think this is as traditional a pick as you can imagine of the three choices that we heard that donald trump had. it's been interesting sort of watching the reaction, at least the social media reaction from clinton world, hillary clinton's own account tweeted out, a quote from mike pence saying that he awaits the day when roe v. wade is cast into the dust of history. and the director of human rights campaign tweeting out that mike pence is a threat to lgbt rights. and elizabeth warren really went in, even before the trump speech

began, essentially saying that somebody like donald trump, who's disparaged women, called them fat pigs, et cetera, it figures he would pick someone who would want to control women's bodies. it's interesting on the focus on women and lgbt constituencies, that i think are going to find a lot to mine in the pence record. so i think it's interesting that donald trump, who has really stayed away from social issues, he stayed away from the sort of social conservative wing of the party. he's now kind of opened himself up to a more traditional democratic line of attack against him because of mike pence. i think that's what you're already starting to see take shape, going right after women, going right after lgbt folks. and then there was that strange part of the trump part of the speech where he talked about undoing the laws about religious organizations, getting involved in politics. and, of course, jonathan alter and many others tweeted out, it

was from preventing churches from discriminating against africans. it's opened up areas that i'm sure you'll see that today. >> joy reed out in cleveland where the rain has stopped. and where they were actually washing the building behind her, getting ready to look good on camera. chris matthews in washington. now we widen the lens. and all of this gets to be litigated before a general television audience that chooses to tune in, or not, to the gop convention, and the democratic convention following that. >> i think there will be a big audience next week. i think it's because the possibilities, as i mentioned an hour ago, and also because trump is a good show. and i think people are going to tune in. progressives as well. liberals will watch as well. they want to know what they're facing. every time i walk out in the street it seems, someone comes

up to me, somebody from the democratic side and say, what are we going to do to stop this guy? there's a great deal of concern that donald trump may be the success story, capable of giving hillary a real run for their money in november, and they're worried. the country, right, left and center is concerned about this election. i think the world's concerned about it. i think steve schmidt is right, it will have one heck of an audience worldwide because we are the leading country in the world, the leading democracy. next week, i mean, it looks like the platform fights are over. so that's going to be like it normally is. no discussion of the platform. there's going to be some interesting speakers. not great speakers like the democrats are going to have. the democrats have a whole plethora of people to put up on the platform. but people are going to watch for trump, his family. i've never seen a candidate before put their family out on stage like this fellow does. he'll have melania, his wife

speak, and the vp speak. and he is not going to have -- as you pointed out a while ago, brian, the usual suspects of the republican party. the host governor will not be there. that's an amazing fact. the bushes will not be there. the previous nominees, they're not going to be there at all. it's like the republican party will be replaced by this new trump, almost bonapartists regime that's something -- how could you not watch and check it out every night just a bit. >> steve schmidt, back to your point. small things can loom large. you were talking about the iconography. they rolled out a new logo after pence was announced today. they featured only trump's name on the podium. and then while trump was speaking, we received a new version at the top of a fund-raising letter from mike

pence. so i guess this is what it's going to look like. >> yeah, i think that's what it's going to look like. the first logo pretty unfortunate, you know, obviously widely panned across social media. so they made an adjustment, 345id a change on that. look, vice presidential candidate in a race, brian, you come back to the point that i made earlier, really two key functions over the course of the campaign. number one, deliver a great speech at the convention to an audience that will be the largest audience that vice presidential candidate speaks to, numbering in the tens of millions. secondly, do a great job at the debate. and so the democrats reacting to the pence pick, and informing the american people about 4i78, they're not going to spend a lot of time in this campaign attacking mike pence. their focus, their target will be donald trump. it will be on his statements, on his fitness for office.

mike pence has a big job to do in the vice presidential debate. and if you look at the course of these debates over recent years, the vice presidential debates have been significant in that they have presented an opportunity after the vice presidential candidate has stumbled, whether it be president obama, george w. bush in the 2004 debate, to reset the race, to stop the bleeding. so mike pence has to do a good job in these debates. and he's never been in that situation. he's not as good a communicator as newt gingrich, or chris christie. he's not tested on the national stage. we don't know how fluent he is on national security issues, as he begins the round of interviews that he'll be doing across the networks, and with print reporters who are covering this race. so a lot of unknowns about mike pence at this hour. we'll get a real sense this week about what his game level is.

is he a major leaguer, is he somebody who can play at the level of national politics, can he captivate the republican party, can he appeal to independent voters, can he effectively communicate. and we're going to find that out, or a lot about it this week. >> well put. steve schmidt and all of our contributors, we can't remember a pace of news coverage quite like this. and again, remember, over the past 48 hours, we started with the terrorist attack in nice, france, last night, and the drama continues overseas today. the attempted coup in turkey. and then an 11:00 a.m. saturday morning event to debut the gop ticket, which we will be seeing so much more of in cleveland this coming week. of course, we'll have gavel-to-gavel coverage. we'll take a break. when we come back, alex witt will take over the coverage from there. ♪

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hey there, everyone. i'm alex witt at the coffee cafe here in cleveland, ohio. you just watched one of the biggest events of this week in new york. donald trump finally announcing indiana governor mike pence as his running mate. you'll hear from both of them. meanwhile, the streets here around the convention center, they are crowded with security. we're going to get a reality check on safety concerns here in cleveland. and it appears the anti-trump movement has had its last stand. one delegate says there still could be a floor fight.

all of that, as we come to you live from what is the political capital of america for the next few days. here by the ki owing a river here in cleveland, ohio. let's get to it. donald trump's first official event with his running mate, indiana governor, mike pence. they each went after hillary clinton in both of their speeches. >> what a difference between crooked hillary clinton and mike pence. >> hillary clinton and barack obama's foreign policy of leading from behind, moving red lines, feigning resets and rise of isis is a testament to the truth of history. and we must bring a change to america's stand in the world. >> now, just seconds after the

event, hillary clinton in a tweet appearing to mock trump's focus on her, tweeted, well, we've got plenty to say about mike pence. the picture she tweeted focuses on five reasons he's wrong for the country. we have a team of reporters covering the rnc for you. katy tur joins us from new york. and here in cleveland, joining me, my colleague joy reed. and hallie jackson. katy in new york, we had trump introducing pence as his running mate. talk about this event. kind of like a rally more than an announcement. there were people cheering in the crowd. of course, trump took a lot of the time up. >> yeah, absolutely, there were six rows of supporters, friends and members of the new york gop. there were also, alex, tourists that came in off the street. they heard about the event, they wanted to see donald trump introduce pence. they asked to come in. they were screened by secret service, and allowed in.

taking a little bit of a different tact from past vp announcements, last cycle we saw mitt romney introduce paul ryan on a battleship in virginia. talked for about eight minutes about all of paul ryan's accomplishments, both in wisconsin and in congress. talking about how he would be a friend of the little guy, and how he was not somebody who was divisive in congress. then paul ryan took the stage. there was a momentary gaffe when he introduced paul ryan as the next president of the united states. and then when you're talking about john mccain and sarah palin, he spoke about her for about seven minutes -- excuse me, about ten minutes. and bush and cheney, bush spoke about cheney for about seven minutes. donald trump went on for 29 minutes in this speech today, going after hillary clinton part of it. and also talking about himself. relitigating the primaries, talking about how he was able to win among 17 candidates, and what an accomplishment that was. talking about the deals he's made and how people laughed at him when he said that the uk was

going to vote for brexit. much of this speech was about donald trump. and very little of it was about governor pence, frankly. when governor pence finally did take the stage, donald trump, which is usually customary, did not stand on stage with him, instead, leaving the stage immediately after governor pence took the podium. as scattered as trump was, governor pence was rehearsed. he was practiced. he was staying on message. and staying on his narrative, talking about his religious roots, talking about his family, trying to paint himself as this civility in this campaign. that's certainly what they are hoping for, that he'll be able to balance out donald trump in a way that newt gingrich or chris christie may not have been able to. one interesting note when governor pence was talking, he said he found out he was going to be the running mate on wednesday night. an aide here tells our own ali

vi tali, told him he would be the running mate. that goes against all of the drama we saw on thursday. donald trump as late as thursday evening talking to fox news saying he hadn't made his final decision yet. it was still down to three. governor pence, chris christie and newt gingrich. so either donald trump wasn't being completely forthcoming on fox news, when he talked about who his choice was, and whether he had made his decision, or potentially he wanted to maintain some of the suspense. or he wasn't being honest with governor pence when he called him on wednesday. either way, the suspense was building. donald trump said to be stewing in california where he was fund-raising, as the news was getting away from him, ruining the rehearsed, or the planned announcement that he was supposed to have this morning here at 11:00. but again, this is the first rollout of donald trump and

governor pence. and notably, alex, on the podium, it was just a trump 2016 sign, not a trump-pence sign. >> i know. katy, you talked about the optics there, not showing the two men together, which henceforth now going forward, that is going to be the twosome. very interesting in terms of the optics which you highlighted. we'll bring in hallie jackson on east fourth street. hallie, in the announcement, trump spoke about party unity. specifically leaders of the party. how do you think they're going to take to mike pence? let's talk about paul ryan, mitch mcconnell and others. >> he talked about what a good conservative selection mike pence is on the ticket. it would be expected they would feel positively about the person at the top of the ticket with donald trump. this was an intentional pick to try to allay concerns and alleviate the fears among some of the republican party that donald trump is an outsider. pence is an inside pick, the safe and steady choice. what's interesting to me over

the last what we've seen hour and a half in new york city, trump explicitly acknowledging that that is part of the reason why he selected pence to be on the ticket with him in the first place. it's unusual that he would be noting it so forthrightly, outright talking about how he wants party unit, and that's why he's picking pence. listen to what he pivoted to almost in the next breath. listen. >> they're wonderful people. never trump they said. they got crushed. and they got crushed immediately. because people want what we're saying to happen. they're tired of the country that has horrible trade deals, that has no borders, that has taxes that are through the roof, highest taxed nation just about in the world. >> a couple of quick points to make, on this vp rollout, alex. interesting to me how pence purposefully presented himself

to really a national audience today. there are a lot of folks who don't know who mike pence is. this is a chance for him to get out and put his biography in front of people, how he wants to be defined by the american public. and he did so by presenting himself as a notable contrast and perhaps complement to donald trump of the he was very humble, earnest, saying he's just a rural boy, smalltown boy who grew up in indiana, talking about his roots. a very different kind of tone that we often see from donald trump. a little bit of the yin to the yang. before pence took the stage, donald trump mocked him a little bit for his tepid, nonendorsement endorsement of ted cruz. it happened before the indiana primary in early may. while it is obviously very untraditional for the top of the ticket to tease their running mate in the introduction speech, worth noting, though, worth remembering that when pence did give that endorsement to ted

cruz, he was, frankly, panned for how he did it, praising donald trump in the beginning of that endorsement. and john kasich to a lesser degree as well before talking about backing cruz in the primary. alex? >> well, it is all so interesting thus far today. hallie, thank you for your perspective and interpretation of all of it. ed o'keefe for the "washington post," and joy reed, host of msnbc's am joy. reaction to all of this, guys. katy and hallie brought up great points. it did not look like the twosome going forward. it was all about trump, as expected. but then the role of mike pence is what? >> it was weird. the body language between them was sort of stiff and awkward. when trump sort of handed off the podium to him but didn't stand there with him, that was a little strange. you expected at least that he would stand there and give the cameras the two-shot, and then there was a sort of a handshake at the end. he took a really long time to

start talking about mike pence. a lot of what we heard before, a lot of the stump speech, a lot of, hey, i won this, and the party needs to come to me. i think pence is a permission pick. he's for those republicans who want to vote for donald trump because he's a republican, as they are, and they don't like hillary clinton. but there's been something missing, something that hasn't allowed tho eed to publicly sup. i think the purpose of mike pence is, i'm voting because that guy is on the ticket, he'll shepherd the supreme court picks, someone donald trump will listen to. the flaw is, it's not clear donald trump would listen to mike pence or somebody else. i can't see them campaigning together. it was very awkward. >> yeah. what do you think? >> they have this convention week and then they go their separate ways. because he checks all those boxes, pence can go and motivate the base, go to fund-raisers, be a voice box on talk radio and

television interviews and be the attack dog. if you look at the speech he gave, it was a red meat conservative speech. we'll do frlg we can to stop hillary clinton from becoming president. that's what republicans want to hear right now. he articulated it probably a little more clearly than trump usually does. trump's problem today, because he's a oiled guy, he's struggling to deal with a co-star. he's going to have to adjust to that. we'll have to figure out here, does pence become a full partner in the campaign strategy, in the governing strategy, or just a guy that gets deployed every so often to take care of a few things. >> how often has it been necessary that the vice presidential candidate is the one to pull together party unity? >> it's happened before. chris matthews talked about it earlier. it happened with john f. kennedy who needed to shore up the southern wing of the party. he didn't like lyndon johnson. i think it happened with ronald reagan. he and george h.w. bush i don't think ever became friendly. but he needed to pull the party together after a rancorous

primary. sometimes you pick the person that takes the part of the base that's still smarting and still hurting and doesn't want to support you and put them on the ticket. it does sort of make sense. you could say kerry did it with edwards, edwards the more liberal wing of the party. so i think that that is helpful. but i do think it's interesting what ed said about not wanting to deal with a co-star. it gives you a window into why he may not have picked gingrich. >> he would have been out there -- >> it might have rivaled him as well. >> he didn't go with chris christie as it's been suggested. they've been friends for so long. the reasons for not going with him were almost just -- they were familial, out of family loyalty, because of past history between chris christie and christie's father charles. >> can you imagine if the guys had been pleading guilty or indicted on the bridgegate -- >> that appeals to your point

about the hollywood star factor of that. chris christie is a big personality, a big, bold guy. >> it would have been incredible distraction. two trials going on, one we heard a defense telegraphing that they're going to make chris christie an issue in the defense of one of those. he seems to have wanted it the most and sort of the most sad and crushed he didn't get it. >> he told "the new york times" he was appealing to the trump campaign, right to the very end, saying, i want this. >> what a fall. it's sort of sad. he's just kind of a perennial victim of donald trump. >> one thing about pence to point out here, he is sort of the generic, safe, conservative choice. he will do nothing most likely to expand the trump campaign and the party's appeal to swing voters, to minorities, to women, democrats are going to go after him as they already have in the last few hours. i think what that signals is that the campaign is still very concerned that coming here to this convention this week where you'll have a room full of delegates who don't like donald

trump, they have to work on party unity issues. if they can't leave here in a week unified and totally focused on hillary clinton, they're going to have a problem. >> i think the democrats are looking at particularly married white women, and getting single white women laser focused on mike pence and his record in indiana. that will be a big selling point for democrats to close that gender gap. >> thank you both for the chat. we have a presidential candidate right now cooling his jets. he's gone along with donald trump as would be expected. joining me now, gary johnson. gary, good to see you. as always. let me get your reaction, first of all, to trump's rollout of mike pence? >> no surprise. i'll leave it to others to throw stones. i think there will be a pile full by the end of the day. i think you've got the real story here, alex. that is, myself and bill weld,

we're creeping up on this whole party thing. and i think we're going to be in the debates. and i think it will be interesting. >> yeah, i'm going to get to your poll numbers in a second and whether you can get in the debates. you mentioned bill weld, the two of you being governors. how effective has mike pence been, and what leadership it would bring to the ticket? >> i think based on what i know about him, on the fiscal side, he might be a pretty good conservative. but on the social side, i think we have some really big differences. look, small government, pence may be in that category. but like i say, when it comes to social issues, when it comes to people being able to make choices in their own lives, i don't know. maybe he wants to dictate that. and like i say, there are going to be plenty others all day long that i think are going to fill a basket full of rocks up on that

issue. and then neither candidate, i don't think, is going to make a difference when it comes to our military interventions. i do think militarily, we have the unintended consequence of making the world less safe, not more safe with putting boots on the ground, dropping bombs. there is a very real terrorist threat out there. i don't want to discount that either. but look, i think the real threat nationwide -- or worldwide is north korea and the fact that at some point these intercontinental ballistic missiles are going to work, and with kim at the hell am, that's what we really need to be looking at. >> give me the sense of the optics with donald trump and his running mate, with mike pence, they didn't appear to be a solid twosome. i mean, that's just the appearance that -- typically you would think donald trump would stand in the background as mike pence, for all the photo-ops played throughout the campaign right from the beginning. talk about your thoughts on

that. and also, how you would differ if you're writing a script for your own candidacy with bill weld at your side. >> bill weld for me was a political role model. holy cow, the two of us, republican governors getting reelected in heavily blue states, we were both fiscally conservative over the top. socially liberal. people being able to make their own choices in their own lives. for me and bill weld, we're planning to govern as a team. we're not going to have divided staff. we're not going to have staff. i think that that seeks to divide candidates in office. so we've got a real team here. and yeah, i did notice that same phenomenon. for us, really, i think it's a great opportunity. i'm looking forward to being in the presidential debates. and right now, we're appearing in enough polls that it's ratcheting up. it appears like it might happen.

>> yeah. let me get to one of them. >> so on to the real story here that's still going unnoticed for the most part. >> i want to get to one poll here specifically. "new york times" cbs poll, gary, where you are at 12% right now. you have hillary clinton, donald trump both tied at 36. give me your read on that number and how you feel about it. >> we're still in the after-thought. still polls that are saying who do you vote for, trump or clinton, and then right now they're adding as an after-thought, well, how about about adding us to that. if they just start off with three candidates from the very get-go, i think that pushes us up over 15%. i think it will be an interesting fall. i want to really make the case to the american people that there's a big, broad, six-lane highway down the middle here between clinton and trump. i think that's where most of us are at. and i think that's where bill

weld and i govern from. >> all right. gary johnson, i know we'll be seeing a lot more of you. good to see you today, though. thanks for joining us. >> great, alex. thank you very much. >> thanks. a close look at just who is mike pence. you'll hear from his former communications director next. ♪ using 60,000 points from my chase ink card i bought all the framework... wire... and plants needed to give my shop... a face... no one will forget. see what the power of points can do for your business. learn more at chase.com/ink

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welcome back, everyone. i'm alex witt here at the coffee cafe in cleveland, ohio. we're hearing from presumptive vice presidential candidate mike pence for the first time since being introduced by donald trump as his running mate. here's what he said during that event less than an hour ago. >> i answered this call for two reasons. first, because i know from firsthand experience that strong republican leadership can bring about real change. just like we've seen in the hoosier state.

and secondly, because hillary clinton must never become president of the united states of america. >> well, the indiana governor will be traveling back home now for a welcome home rally. we understand his running mate is not part of that event. although pence seems relatively unknown on the national stage, he has made a name for himself with conservative insiders over the last decade or so. and joining me to talk about mike pence is someone who knows him quite well, steven, who served as pence's communications director while he was in congress. steven, welcome to you. what do you think of everything? how excited are you for your former boss? >> thank you, alex. thanks for having me. i am very pleased for mike. i think he was a fantastic choice by donald trump. and i think he'll do a great job on the campaign trail, and as vice president in the future. >> okay. what can you tell us about him, from your years working with him, when he was a congressman? i think '01 and '02.

>> sure. mike's a very personable guy. on a personal level, he got to know all of his staff. after the 9/11 attacks, he had his entire staff over for a party at his house, just as a gathering, and to thank us all for the work we had done for him. on a personal level, he and his family are just really wonderful. he's also a very gifted communicator. in my role as press secretary, he was really a joy to work for. he was very disciplined in his messaging, and knew how to get the message across to the people. >> i want to pick up on that. disciplined in his messaging. he has come out and delivered messages, as you well know before, which are in contrast with the positions held by mr. trump. what will he do now? do you think he's at all sacrificing his moral conscience to be on this ticket? i mean, how would you read that? >> mike is not one to -- that i would ever think of as

sacrificing his moral conscience. i don't think that -- that's not even an option for him, in terms of what he's going to do on this ticket. i do think there are areas where he will -- his views and donald trump's views will end up merging, and we've already seen that with his discussions of trade and other issues. but i don't think that you'll see mike compromising his conservative values as part of this team. >> as you know, he has faced his own controversies in his own state. he signed a law allowing religious beliefs against discrimination suits. he signed a revised law to exclude lgbt discrimination. do you think some of this is going to come back to haunt him? >> you know, i think an important point that people forget about that issue, really two important points, one, you know, the law in indiana was modeled after one that had been assigned by president clinton.

and one that was similar to laws passed in other states. the second point, though, is, when you come to these issues, you have two competing interests. both of which have profound constitutional consequences. you have the right to freedom of conscience, protected by the first amendment, you also have equal protection. and i think people of good faith can come down on both sides on those issues. and we can't really hold the legislature of indiana and mike pence -- hold that against them, that they happened to come down on one side, people of good faith can come down on either side on those issues. >> all right. stephen, appreciate you weighing in on all this. thank you very much for your time. >> thank you for having me, alex. i appreciate it. >> you're welcome. republicans tangled over the convention rules, as the never-trump movement made its last stand. an inside look, next.

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with just days to go before the republican convention, donald trump is certainly getting his campaign in order. about you so are his opponents. the anti-trump camp suffered a big defeat the other night. for the never-trump die-hards, the fight is not over yet. let's bring in jacob. explain this plan. do these delegates, jake, think they can stop trump now? >> they don't think they can actually stop donald trump. when we were watching donald trump introduce mike pence to america as his running mate, he took a very donald trump-ian detour to say, look how we crushed the never-trump movement. i think they would acknowledge, they did have a stinging defeat at this rules committee meeting. but there is another thing they want to do. i got together with dane waters, who is the co-founder of the delegates unbound movement. they wanted the delegates to become unbound to vote against donald trump at the convention. that's not going to happen.

they filed a minority report to try a pull a last-minute maneuver. here's what he said. >> will there be a minority report submitted to bind the delegates of the convention? >> i don't think so. at the end of the day, what's happened is there are 80 people, yesterday, who basically chose to bind the delegates. they're doing everything in their power to make us look bad. what they're going to do tomorrow night is make it clear if anything's put forward, it will be controlled to the point nothing will happen. >> how many never-trump delegates or free the delegates allies, or actual delegates will be inside this building monday night? >> more than if there would have been if they hadn't tried to take the delegates away last night. you have those that are just outraged by the fact that the rnc and reince priebus is trying to steal the power from them. i think there already more delegates in the convention center saying this is not right. >> over 1,237 delegates will in

some way be allied with you guys? >> we had more than 1,300 to begin with. as part of the group that wanted to stop donald trump from being the nominee. the rnc, one of the reasons it's important is the rnc kept saying they had the number of delegates necessary to get the nomination. listen, if they really felt that way, why did they go to such lengths to shut us down. why did they go to such lengths that the delegates couldn't vote their conscience. they were scared, they knew we had the delegates to keep donald trump from being the nominee. >> they will not try to stop donald trump from being the nominee, but they may stage a protest perhaps as early as monday. it might mean they walk out of the room. they could have as many as 1,000 anti-trump delegates. i don't know. they said they were going to win the stop trump movement. >> thank you for that. questions over choosing a running mate and making decisions as the president. the challenges donald trump faces making big decisions. i'm going to ask a prominent

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back here in cleveland, just two days from the gop convention, let's bring in wayne dupree, board member of the national diversity coalition for trump. wayne, good day to you. give me your thoughts on mike pence as a running mate. is that a good ticket for conservatives? >> it's a good ticket for america, actually. basically what you have, you have two men that love america. you have two men that want to fix what has happened over the last 7 1/2 years. they want to bring america back together again. for the betterment of all of its citizens. i believe pence -- trump-pence can do that. >> okay. wayne, though, look at some of the numbers here from polls. specifically ohio and pennsylvania. both key battleground states. donald trump earning literally zero percent of the

african-american vote. can you explain why he is so unappealing to minority voters and what would you as a member of the national diversity coalition for trump say to change folks' minds? >> probably the reason he's polling at 0%, is maybe because nobody's asking black americans. because there are a lot of black americans that are out there right now, such as myself, that know about donald trump. i actually have interviewed him a few times, sat and talked. so i know that he's a good man. for the national diversity coalition, we are trying to bring people together, minority, people of all color, bring people together that believe that donald trump is that person, that we have known for years. okay? years. the polling is because, maybe they're not asking black americans. >> so, wayne, hillary clinton put out this new ad yesterday,

really attacking trump. i want to play a portion of that. take a look. >> i could stand in the middle of fifth avenue and shoot somebody and i wouldn't lose any voters, okay? it's like incredible. when mexico sends its people, they're bringing drugs, they're bringing crime, they're rapists. you could see there was blood coming out of her eyes. blood coming out of her -- wherever. you've got to see this guy, oh, i don't know what i said. i don't remember. >> i don't know about you, but when i first saw that, i was walking past a television and it stopped me in my tracks. is there some truth in it? >> well, i mean, if -- those are sound bytes, alex. if you cut it up and put it together, you're going to have pizza and a whole lot of different ingredients to it. >> but wayne, they're the kind of sound bytes that people remember. >> only because you're only cutting them and putting them up

and playing them 24/7. seriously, i mean, i spent eight years in the military. i was in desert storm and desert shield. i could easily tell you, i'm not going to vote for hillary clinton because she left four people behind in benghazi. so, i mean, it's politics. people do this, and americans are tired of it. they're tired of seeing politicians created these little sound bytes, and knowing that their house is dirty, too. >> wayne dupree, i want to thank you for your time. and let everyone know your microphone was cutting out just a wee bit, but we certainly got the gist of what you were saying. thank you, wayne. >> thank you. >> donald trump giving us a glimpse of his foreign policy after the attack in france. and the unrest in turkey. ♪ using 60,000 points from my chase ink card i bought all the fruit...

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