officially released by police. but you are going to hear the call into police over police radios by officers who have just arrived at the saern. take listen. >> shots fired, officer down. shots fired offer r officer down. got a city officer down. shots fired. >> reporter: gives you there a sense of the real horror that is to be a police officer when you arrive at a scene and immediately come under gunfire. and we've heard those records, the initial video from local news cameras that would seem to indicate very direct fire, fire that is very controlled fire. so certainly as this man hunt continues in eastern baton rouge and really it is the eastern part of the is it they police seem to be focusing on. those records give you an idea of the level of alert that police are now on in that part of the city and just perhaps a glimpse a into why officials

have used the term ambush. we don't know how to started. unfortunately we know how it ended. it ended in the targeting of police officers. what police were responding to this morning now six hours ago, 9:00 a.m. local time in eastern baton rouge, that is still a question. but those records clearly giving us a sense of the horror and the flight that prolice were under. >> all right cal. thank you -- >> ari melber here responding to cal. i wanted to add to this in addition to what we vetted and just cleared there is a process for this. this is a police scanner. we didn't obtain this directly from police but we have gone to our lengths to conform that it is indeed baton rouge police from today. and i can report on this police scanner police also indicate that this subject involved in this shooting of officers this morning was wearing black and carrying a quote a.r.

wearing black and carrying a quote ar. what that reflects is not a final confirmation of the veracity of that. but it does reflect one baton rouge police officer's belief at the time contemporaneously in the moment that this individual who shot multiple police officers with us carrying on ar. and we believe that to be a reference to an ar-15 a semi automatic assault style rifle. and we expect to hear mer about it on this all. but that is critical information francis because obviously it goes to the profile of the threat the officers were facing in the moment. now i want to be clear it is possible that an officer ids a weapon over a call during an emergency and ultimate i determines a different weapon was used. but that is some of the brand new information we have the from the police scanner audio and it

does match some of the information afterwards. the gash, the clothing of dressed in black and a mask is later confirmed. we'll get the pieces and ascertain or confirm what we know before we go to air with it but that is the information that fits the picture the police had drawn --. >> it is consistent with that is in speaking to the baton rouge police officer earlier. who acid say the suspect who was killed in the exchange of gunfire earlier this morning was there. and they had to bring in robots to figure out if there were any dwois devices, explosives left that could jeopardize the safety of the police in the area and. i want to turn to jay gray. your your reflections as you turbi begin your reporting being a native in baton rouge. >> i want to give you an update. we've had two cars in the last

15 or 20 minutes pulled boo this area which is heavily fortified with officers. they have both been stopped. police diligently pouring through the cars searching for anything that might interest them. they have one of the drivers pulled into a police vehicle here. again i think this might be a incidence of wrong place wrong time for some of these folks but officers not taking any chances and i think it speaks to the atmosphere here right now. there is a heavy tension not only for the people living in this area but for the officers who right now feel some of their own were targeted this morning. intense search continues. we just saw the police chopper again flying very low in this area: looked like it was looking for something or following something. it's since moved off. we've seen officers from the sheriff's department, the police department. continuing to move in and out at high speed. it is still a very active crime sen right. >> it is an active crime scene as they are coming to terms with

the reality of three of the their police officers lost in this. possibly even four. one of them includes a sheriff's deputy. jay talk about your reflections in coming down. there is your home. you are from here. and noticing that yes all the conversations we've been having are very very similar unfortunately to what happened in dallas. and now we're seeing it happen in baton rouge. >> well and i know some people who have been talking about this. i have a different perspective. i grew up here in baton rouge. i live in dallas. i've been at both scenes. and unfortunately for this city this is just the beginning. they have the three officer whose have been killed here. we have others in the hospital. but this is going to be a strain on this community and this police department for quite some time. we've seen that unfold in dallas as you move through what happens after these officers have been killed. as you have officers who have been called in and will continue to work around the clock tirelessly for several days here as this investigation unfolds and then you have the community,

many who we've talked to who say they felt like they were making progress here. they felt there was a dialogue opening up between those who have been protesting over the last month or so here and the police department. and those you talk to and let's put that in the proper context. it is in people who have been on the ground here not involved beta investigation. but those who have been a part of the protest say they feel like it is not someone from their group that is involved in all this. that it may be someone from the outside. and we've had reports that may indicate that. and i think it is important to couch all of this in the proper perspective and that is just we're in the hours after the attack here. just hours after the shooting here so there's glot a lot to that's got to unfold before we know anything solid. >> hours aft the attack and also full blown into the man hasn't looking for possibly two other suspects who were involved in the shooting. nbc's jay gray there in baton rouge. thank you for the update. now i want to turn to jacob rascon in cleveland, ohio.

the sight of the republican national convention. you have been reporting on the security measures and enhancements. talk about how this shooting in baton rouge might come into play with some possibly changes there. >> so now we have an update from the president of the cleveland police patrolman's association steve loomis. he's asked that the governor suspend the open carry law during the convention in the event zone which is where the protesters will be citing security con sernsz among his officer. the governor, john kasich in response to this. -- we've seen attacks on officers. ohio governors do not have the power to arbitrarily suspend federal and state constitutional rights or state laws as suggested. when asked about that, steve loomis the president of this association tells me that if the

government doesn't feel he has authority to suspend the open carry law in that zone, then he should talk to somebody who does. e mentioned of course as we know the secret service secure zone does not allow open carry. and so steve loomis offered that if this with can happen for the safety and others and delegates in inside that it should happen for his officers and others. of course we know there are 5,000, 5500 or so that are coming. in addition i reached out to the cleveland police department and was told that nothing has changed in terms of their response. i've spoken to the chief about this. the deputy chief about open carry. they have said they will work to uphold of course the first amendment right of all those protesters to their freedom of speech and as well their second amendment right to open carry. and they have told me that they are not -- they say that worried about open carry because they don't believe that many people will be doing it. and because they and other

officers have suggested to me that those who are open carrying are there in the open for them what a lot of the officers have said they are most concerned about in fact is concealed carry, those who are hiding their guns. so we have three takes on this from steve loomis, from the governor's office and from the police department. and it doesn't appear at this point that any actual changes will be made but we'll see what happens. >> well also we have this reporting from the "new york times," not verified for us here by nbc news that governor kasich who released a statement expressing grief for the baton rouge shooting but through a spokeswoman said he would not move to restrict the brandishing of guns around the republican national convention. the spokeswoman for the governor said an e-mail said mr. kasich did not ahave the power to bloc people from carrying legally guns around the convention. as we're following closely this breaking news out of baton rouge

and a man hunt there after the shooting deaths of three police officer ari. the conversation now that's been moved to where you are, when it collins to a request by police and other groups to suspend open carry. >> yeah. just to echo what you have been reporting there. governor kasich has responded swiftly, i would say unusually swiftry to this request. he's not obligated to respond of course any time any particular police union says something. as a reminder the police unions are separate from the actual functions of the police representatives themselves who exercise law enforcement function. the union is the representative. he doesn't have to respond at all but again given the horrific attacks in baton rouge with the president responding with the governor responding in that state at 4:00 p.m. and now governor kasich which is going to be hosting such a high security event he's said officially "we don't have the power to arbitrarily suspend federal and state constitutional rights or state laws a suggested." governor kasich saying he will not seek to initiate any change in result to response to baton

rouge-related requests here in cleveland, ohio. more broadly as you look at the state of gun laws it is an open carry state here in ohio. open carry state in louisiana. and further more relative liz pro second amendment regarding the access to weapons. you don't need a permit for open carry. you don't need a permit for open carry. you don't need a permit for a long gun. there as robust gun culture and when you have these reports of someone carrying an ar that goes something they might legally do. the response i think for many folks who are a second amendment supporters would say of course as we've discussed in these stories whenever they arise that the problem isn't carrying the gun. the problem is misusing the gun and most louisiana gun owners aren't doing anything like we saw this morning which is the misuse of a gun when you look at targeting police officers and a third legal point i'll make

before tossing it back to you. louisiana is actually the first state in the country to ever pass a law which it did a few months ago, making the targets of police a hate crime. that doesn't change the fact that these are already treated as homicide or potential murders and it is already in virtually every state an elevated offense do anything to a law enforcement official be it state or federal. but louisiana and the government who we're going to hear from here just inside this hour went further and argued because of the climate and the culture around some of the way police were being treated they wanted go the extra step and say also it should be a hate crime if someone is target because they are an officer. that policy history i think weighs heavy today even though we don't know the exact motives of the suspect or suspects. there is certainly relevant to the discussion indeed as we wait for the government to speak that may be something he ultimatery raises why hiefs in support of that. the president himself said we don't know the motives. but if anything here is the deliberate targeting of officers

because of what they do because of the service they provide because of their heroism essentially that is wrong in the strongest possible terms. so we're seeing i would emphasize government leaders and politicians circle around that part of this question even though the investigation francis has yet to resolve the motois of the suspect or suspects. >> something we certainly don't know with that on going investigation and the man hasn't there in baton rouge for possible other suspect as well. ari melber in cleveland there. as the police department is seeking to suspend or block the open carry low there in light of what happened in baton rouge the day start with police officers engaging in a shootout with what has been described by police as one man who was wearing dark fatigues, armed with a long gun. and we've heard audio of that account not verified independ t independentindependent ly by nbc news but as a result

three police officers shot and killed. a few others wounded now in the hospital. one suspect also killed in the gunfight. and possibly two others on the loose. this as we're awaiting a news conference within the next hour from the louisiana governor john bel edwards. and the president of the united states being notified of this shooting. u only earn double miln you buy stuff from that airline. wait...is this where you typically shop? you should be getting double miles on every purchase! switch...to the capital one venture card. with venture, you earn unlimited double miles on every purchase, everywhere, every day. not just ...(dismissively) airline purchases. seriously... double miles... everywhere. what's in your wallet? but my back pain was making it hard to sleep

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a long, long distance as police tighten the cordon around not only baton rouge but the area of this shooting. we've heard various snippets of audio from amateur video all day. we've had conflicting reports. we can seem to report with some confidence the tragic figure that three officers have lost their lives. our justice correspondent pete williams is in our washington bureau. it will be helpful at this point to check in and ask pete what you have been able to find out at the federal level. >> well i think one of the big questions here brian is what got this start. and there are various accounts, it is not clear whether the police were lured to the area and there was an ambush or whether they were responding to some sort of crime already in progress. the most recent information we have is that the police came to this area. this was on a highway. it is about a mile from the police station.

and they were responding to a 9 1-1 call from a citizen who said she thought she saw a man walking on the highway, wearing a mask and carrying a rifle. of course that begs the question whether the call was an innocent one, someone accurately reporting what they saw or whether it was a call to lure them to the area. what got this started is still unclear and it's going take a while to figure that out. we know that one person is killed. the police did shoot one man who they said was firing at him. they used a robot to see if man was carrying explosive. we heard no indication explosives were found. based apparently on witnesses to the scene have told the police, they are searching for at least two other people. it isn't clear that there was more than one person involved in that attack but that is the assumption at this point. and we are told that there are -- as the police and

tactical units are responding to various places around baton rouge, as people phone in information. so they are still hunting down these two people. whether in fact two people were involved or not is still unclear. so we don't know who -- how this got started. and we don't know who was involved. now, we've been told that one of the people they are looking for or someone described as a person of interest is a member of the sovereign citizens movement. this is a group that a lot of people may not be familiar with. but it's long been concern to law enforcement. sovereign citizens for the most part are people who file a lot of paper. they claim that there is no jurisdiction, there is no authority over them by most government officials that the only authority that counts is the local sheriff. and they often file phone liens against government officials and so forth. but there have been some deadly encounters with members of the

sovereign citizens. and if that turns out to be involved in here, that would put this again in a -- category but that's often worked out. one other thing we often see the new york police department respond to these things in a more aggressive way than most other cities do and jonathan dienst from our affiliate says they have saebt chief of patrol to new york strictly because what's happened in baton rouge and not because of any known threat but it simply says that until further notice no police officers in new york are to walk the beat alone. they all must be duel patrols. no solo foot posts citywide. even meals and personal breaks have to be taken in pairs. there are also to be no single, solo station house security posts. they have to be dual people to. and they also advised people on

patrol in new york to avoid creating patterns in their patrols and they should be unpredictab unpredictable. gwen to stress there is strictly a precaution in new york. no known threat the there. it is simply because of what is publicly known of this shooting attack of these people. we're hoping that when the governor speaks at 4:00 some of these things can be nailed down. >> and back to your first point, what a huge distinction and it says so much about our times that we have to worry about and debate the potential guilt or innocence of a 9-1-1 caller. but whether this was a gun discharged first or a crime committed then police responded. or police responding into a deliberate trap is an essential question in this case. >> it is essential. it is essential to us to understand it of course. what the police keep telling me

when our law enforcement people keep telling me when i ask that question is it doesn't matter to them. as far as they are concerned they have some dead and wounded officers and they are trying to find out who did it. but ultimately the question of how this got started i think is an important one for the coun y country. >> pete williams, thanks. we'll be checking in with you often i know. correspondent jay gray who is dallas-based for this network, happens to be from baton rouge louisiana. he is back there today on this sad sunday. jay, while our contributors are speaking on the right-hand side of the screen, we've been showing this unending series of photo, including one driver showing palm, showing his hands at the wheel. being talked to by a police officer who is merely concealing his 9 millimeter behind his back. everyone has to be suspect until we know who the suspects are or were.

>> really tells the story about emotions here. not only in a community but for officers as well. just as i've been here in the last hour and a half or so i've seen for our five vehicles make their way into lack of a better team a police state here. completely locked down in east batten baton rouge. vehicles approached by more than a half dozen officer, some with weapons drawn. again drivers and anyone you talk about inside, palms up. out of the car immediately. it is completely searched. appears to be in most cases an episode of wrong place, wrong time. and people not understanding the situation here. there's one vehicle that was pulled over. it was searched extensively. the driver still inside a police vehicle here. there's been no indication that he's involved in this anyway. but he unlike if other four or five drivers has not left the scene, is inside a police vehicle just a few feet from me here, brian. as far as this area is is concerned. still locked down.

still very active. we've seen a police chopper over head several times and moving very slowly across the area. appears to be looking for something. we haven't been told what at this point. and as you well know we likely won't know for quite some time just in the initial hours of what's happening here. >> we can tell a lot about this area by looking at the coverage and it may remind americans of a place where they live. but as a native tell us about the kind of geographic importance of airline highway where this all started. >> major thorough fair. one of the thoroughfare. one of the biggest roadways in the city and right here at good and airline, a major point for so many communities in this city. part of one of the main artery, if you will, of baton rouge. and an area traveled by most everyone in the city at some point and it leads to different places across the city. obviously it's been a rainy sunday here. wouldn't be as busy as you would

see it on a monday morning. but it is still a major thoroughfare and it is going to be closed down for some time. t really cuts through what is the heart of so many neighborhoods here. tight knit neighborhoods. built around their schools from elementary all the way through high school. and so it is a place where everyone knows everyone. everyone spends time together. and this has rocked the people who live in this area, obviously as it would in any community. but this is a community that's very tight knit. it is a state as you well know brian, spending a lot of time here that really prides itself on its uniqueness. an area that feels like it is different than any other in the united states and right now they are rocked to their core. >> baton rouge native jay gray reporting for us from baton rouge this afternoon. we're joined in the studio by mark claxton, a 20 year veteran

here in the new york city police department. undercover agent for the organized patrol bureau. director of black law enforcement alliance. is it important to you if you are a responding officer today in baton rouge to know if this was a case of officers being drawn in to a trap? does that effect your job? does it effect your response? >> at this point of the investigation in investigating this active crime scene that is not of utd most important. what you want to do immediately is to establish and really define the perimeter. and during the course of the investigation i you can fully expect perimeters will shift. they will expand. there will be additional areas that become concerning. individuals may be approached, stopped. police officers are going to be using extreme levels of caution when interacting with the civilian population. but it is not primarily important at this point. because once you have

established the perimeter. once you have thoroughly and methodically investigated the scene. you will pretty much be able to go back and then determine what happened. what came first. the chicken or the egg. what occurred? what was the impetus? whuz it a set up? was an an ambush? right how to you want as much intelligence information as possible. as much as information specific of the krooim as possible and you want to identify those individuals who who could possibly be related, connect order have some valuable evidentiary information. and at a very basic level, what a scary time for your line of work. >> it is absolutely a police officers nightmare scenario. and i've indicated on previous occasions there is as part of policing a vulnerability, an exposure that you have. when others run away from danger. you run to it. you respond to the most dangerous situations, often

times at great risk to your own personal safety. you are there to protect and serve and secure other folk. so the idea that ambush is a possibili possibility, or even being purposely and specifically targeted for this revel of violence or killing is a police officer's nightmare. the police's officer's loved ones and friends and family nightma nightmare. quite often that is where police work is. that is just the reality of what we do. >> grew up with a number of friends on the job and i still have a number of friends on the job today. and it strikes me that even with this tension between society and police that we've seen, at least a police officer, whether it is baton rouge, nypd, or anywhere feels that they have a kind of bedrock support from the community. they are known, friends, family that they can depend on. but you show up to something like this, all bets are off.

>> and that is when you really have to rely on relationships that you have established over years and as far as community and public support. you have to be firm in understanding what the dynamic is for family and friends, etc. but most importantly you go into this job. you enter into this profession as a volunteer. understanding there are some dangers, extreme risks, the possibilities. you never get paid for what you do. you get paid for what you may have to do one day. and all police officers understand that going into the job. what you have to do is rely heavily on training. you have to build and establish respectful working relationships outside of your law enforcement community and then also you have to be very supportive and involved in maintaining that brotherhood and sisterhood within the law enforcement community. the risks are unavoidable. they have always been and they will always be unavoidable. but there will always be

particular individual whose are equipped and qualified for this profession. >> and at the end of the day your brothers and sisters are always going to be the brothers and sisters on the job. same as military, fire fight, first responding. >> correct. >> thank you very much. i know you will be staying here with us. ari melber is out in cleveland, again a large portion of our news organization, along with every other news organization is pre positioned to start our coverage of the republican convention starting tomorrow. ari, the backdrop couldn't feel more like parts of our country are coming unhinged however. >> that is exactly right, brian. there is obviously a discordance here and a lot of sorrow. and we've heard from republican officials as well as the louisiana delegation which rushed out a statement talking about standing with their men and women in uniform back home. as this normally festive nomination, convention, would begin tomorrow. i do have some fresh reporting

though coming out of fbi and dodge on this. attorney general loretta lynch moments ago put out a statement. this is the first time she's spoken on this. of course law enforcement at the federal level deeply involved in this kind of thing all day. she waited. the president's statement came out first. attorney general lynch saying quote, agent there is the fbi and atf are on the scene. the department of justice will make available victims services and federal funding sport and will provide investigative sast assistance to the fullest extent possible." . i'll give you one thought on that and read more. my thought is what's important about a federal intervention here is they continue to investigate leads and track down whether they think there are federal crimes in addition to the potential local crime and homicide against officers. link to terrorism? link to other groups or potentially an isolated or lone wolf event. so you have atf and fbi on the ground and that is the focus they are going to bring. having said that let me read part of her statement.

she put it in a broader context and those who follow loretta lynch as you have as a reporter know she is generally very crisp and brief. her statements usually as brief as possible. this not so. she goes on, "for the second time in two weeks multiple law enforcement officers have been killed in the line of duty. no place for such appalling violence i condemn these aks in the strorngs possible terms. i pledge the full support of doj and goes on to talk about her hearts and prayer being with the officers. again i think it is fairway irto say that while any time an officer is under threat. law enforcement and government officials speak out on it in the strongest terms. i would note as the reporter that both the attorney general's remarks can the president's remarks were longer and really stronger than we sometimes see in this early period when we don't dmeekt what happened. and that reflects the fact that we've seen a series of attacks they are responding to brian. >> ari melber in cleveland,

ohio. thanks. to our viewers two things to look for as our coverage continues here. in less than an a half hour as you have heard reporting all afternoon, we're going to hear from the governor of louisiana. unbelievable, the governor of louisiana and the superintendent of state police in louisiana were just days ago at the white house. when president obama put together a large group and cleared his schedule for the afternoon and attended this panel, this working group on the current problems that have been in the news. civilians versus police. we'll hear from both gentlemen this afternoon. once the governor concludes his remarks, the president is going to come into the briefing room of the white house on this sunday afternoon to talk to the nation about what we have now witnessed. we continue to keep our eyes on baton rouge, louisiana. weather is becoming somewhat of a factor in both police work and

reporting this story. as is the case on the gulf coming up from the south today. our kind of deeply embedded severe storms. we had one wave of rain come through. let's hope that like anything in this, perhaps that will give police some sort of advantage in figuring out what they have got to figure out, in suppressing what they need to suppress. our coverage of this ongoing story continues after this break. you know, at the model year end clarence event, you can get a great deal on this 2016 passat. steve. yeah? clarence is on a roll. yeah. i wish they'd name an event after me. same here. but the model year end becky event? that's no good... stevent! that's just vandalism. whatever you want to call it, don't miss the volkswagen model year end event. hurry in for a one-thousand dollar volkswagen reward card and 0% apr on a new 2016 jetta.

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or fill a big order or expand your office and take on whatever comes next. find out how american express cards and services can help prepare you for growth at open.com. we are back and let's quickly recap the situation in baton rouge louisiana. we have three police officers dead. three police officer s wounded, including one critical. and one suspect dead. we have heard amateur video of a gunfire, an exchange of gunfire

among our analysts. the consensus was that it was rifle fire. bi based on a lot of things but mostly just the sound, the report, of the weapon in the background. it is still an ongoing situation in baton rouge. we're joined by telephone by congressman garrett graves, republican from louisiana. represents baton rouge. grew up in baton rouge. congressman your reaction to what again this surreal pictures we see, another sad day in america, another incidence where multiple members of law enforcement have been killed. >>. >> reporter: we have dealt with crisis, with disaster. on and on. whether it is the public safety issues. hurricane, flood, oil spill. and our community came together. i think this is -- we saw a marked turn in the whole alton

sterling reaction last weekend when you had outside educators come in from outside of louisiana trying to reshape and redefine this whole thing. and i think it is just likely a continuance of the outside agitators trying to redefine this whole shooting. >> of course baton rouge, i got say devil's advocate has not been without its crime rate trouble and generally its troubles. >> we -- we certainly have had our troubles in regard to crime rates but we have not had any type of attacks like this on our law enforcement. you know, all of us have numerous friends friends who work in law enforcement, local and state level. and in this instance, you know, i think it is very clear. one of the officers as i understand is african american. this is just -- this is ridiculous. it is just ridiculous. you can't look at this and chart some course has to how this is part of any solution.

it is just senseless. >> and yet we are taking ideas as to a solution. how would you go about resetting elements of american society who think this is okay? >> well, i mean, look, first of all if i put a gun in your hand right now i'm sure the last thing in your mind would be to turn 5r7bd and start shooting people. the fundamental problems obviously with people who the meblt who think this makes sense or this is rational. we did pass a bill through the house of representatives a few weeks ago that i can think begin laying groundwork for that and the president actually raised this issue as being a key issue months ago. and i'm glad that progress is being made there but i think that the biggest deal is that we since the alton sterling shooting in our community have brought together very diverse groups of people. faith-based community. different race, ethnicities, and

socioeconomic class and there have been some good discussions and we need to continue those. >> congressman are we the only ones who kind of feel by didn't of the fact that we're covering this kind of thing from day to day that parts of our country that we depended on growing up have come a little bit unhinged? >> i think without a doubt. to think some of the law enforcement officers i was talking to and crying with earlier today. to think those folks are actually scared to go to work in some cases and obviously their families. that's fundamentally wrong. it is. those are the folks there that very r supposed to be protecting rule of law our safety and security and our families and to have them scared to go to work we've got major problems. >> congressman, thank you very much for calling in. our condolences on the loss of life if your community. we are pulling for those who are wounded. again we've got three police officers wounded. one of them critical. one suspect has been taken in. as pete williams detailed for

us. everything is suspect in a case like this. you get a 9-1-1 call. a woman spots someone dressed apparently head to toe in blachblgt black. perhaps with assault gear on. perhaps with kevlar on. walking down the center line of this airline highway, which is a major thoroughfare in baton rouge. you have to then wonder if that 9-1-1 call was meant to report something that she witnessed or lure police in to something they could not anticipate when they roll up. we assume with a robust response, even on an otherwise sleepy sunday morning in baton rouge, louisiana. we're happy to have once again though sadly he only shows up when we are covering the worst possible news. jim kavanagh our nbc news law

enforcement analyst. jim, i was watching you before i left for work and listening to you on satellite radio in my car on route to work. let's go back to audio. your fairly convinced that that amateur video is the report of a long gun. >> yes. it has the crack of a rifle. you know, a rifle is much louder than a handgun usually. there is a real crack to it. and you can also see in that video the people reacting, you know, the white pickup truck sort of backs up. it looks like people are reacting to the gunshots. and they are very -- very methodical. >> yeah at one point they are all you can hear is gunfire. and in the background police intercepter engines as they are driving away or driving towards this. jim, i have to say after ferguson yorks i and i both talked about this. we have witnessed this.

there was this movement to get away i a way in a lot of this equipment that was sold surplus out of the iraq and afghanistan wars that was kind of tricked out by local police departments who along with their dismounted police and their vehicles looked like paramilitary organizations. and from the white house on down there was a movement to kind of demilitarize local police departments. however, you put what we've just witnessed in the last few weeks, including the deaths of five police officers in dallas. and you could not blame municipalities for wanting to kind of arm back up. >> right, brian. well it is emblematic of the way we talk past each other with the police operations and the citizens. look an mrap, a mind resistant and --. is not a police vehicle.

as the police standard tactical vehicle built basically on a brinks struck format. it is not an offensive weapon. it doesn't have machine guns mo unted on it. it doesn't have an armor like a tank shell mounted on it. it is just a defensive weapon. it is armor so officers can't get shot. they have a turret on the top to deploy gas. they can open that up to deploy gas. of course they could deploy their rifle. but helmets. helmets have never hurt anyone. they protect the officer. bullet proof vests have never hurt anyone. they protect the officer. what's been wrong in that discussion is when that equipment is misused at the wrong place, at the wrong time at the wrong time like we saw in ferguson. a tactical officer on top of a bear cat looking down a rifle through a scope at demonstrators involved in civil disobedience. that is not the right time to

deploy a scope and rifle. so the image was wrong. the deployment was wrong and that effected everybody's talk. and of course the president made some changes to that program and some of that military equipment really is not needed. it has to be fine tailored. but the police need equipment to be able to repel these attacks we've seen. you are making the exact right point. we have to have s.w.a.t. teams. they have to be trained. they have to have all the tools, robot, gas, dog, armored vehicle, helmets. vests. they have to have all of this stuff. they are going up against everybody that has a rifle that shoots the muzzle velocity out of, you know, 3500 feet more second. go right through most of the police vests and everybody's got them. we're awash in those things. everybody who has a grievance has prevent and the ammo to go with it. so we have to rely on the police to use the stuff at the right moment in the right time. if that is abused -- and there is some anecdotal cases of course that, you know, it's been misused on a minor drug raid or

a raid of some barbershop somewhere. of course that is not right and that has to be called into account but we can't strip the police of the equipment they need brian to prescott themselvprotect themselves and we see it sadly now every week in america how much they do need that equipment. >> good hearted citizens watching this do not want their law enforcement rolling up on this situation in a thin-skinned vulnerable vehicle. if they have armor, this is the time and place to use it. jim absolutely right. kyle perry, who -- cal perry world health organization we last talked to the night of the attempted coupe in turkey. while cal you were taking in social media reports from there and video in all kinds of sources. by the way that video box below me o is to tell your viewers that we've got the governor of louisiana at the top of the hour at 4:00 and after we hear from the governor we'll go there, tot white house briefing room in the west wing where the nation will hear from president obama this

afternoon on this loss of three police officers in baton rouge, louisiana. so cal, what have you been able to gather on this next tragedy we see ourselves covering? >> reporter: we've been working our way through a recording. this as recording off of a police scanner. we're pulling it down from a website that monitors police scanners. that monitors this stuff as it goz out into the air waves. e played a short clip about an hour ago. we're now going to clear another section of it. take a listen. >> -- [inaudible]. >> -- >> when we pulled up and took a round through the windshield. he had a mask on. >> witness on this east side streetd advises one isn't all

black, carrying a an ar. >> so this gives an indication of how police put out that then initial warning of someone dressed in black to keep an eye out for. we believe ar there being short for the variations of long guns that we keep mentioning. another thing going out online, the police in baton rouge who still have the eastern section of that city on a state of lo lockdown, are putting out to the public a tip line. 344-stop. again, that's 344-stop, for anyone with information if you're outside baton rouge, the area code for baton rouge is 225. one of the things that is complicating all of this is that police when they put out a warning to keep an eye out for someone who is armed, wearing all black is that and we've been discussing this now for hours, this is an open carry state. so people can carry weapons openly. i would find it difficult to believe that anyone would be doing that right now with everything that's going on in baton rouge, but it is certainly complicating what is an already

confusing situation. and, again, the distinction that we are making as the immediate is we do not know if the police were targeted from the beginning of this incident or were they responding to gunfire. that is certainly not a distinction that the baton rouge police need to make at this point. their officers came under sustained and what is becoming more clear directed gunfire. gunfire that was clearly very controlled and directed at their officers. again, that's something we'll hear hopefully more about at the top of this hour, brian. >> cal perry, thanks. here we are again a discussion that will feature as we go on the ar-15. in this case you heard police shorthand calling it an ar. that is also kind of a generic term. they mean that weapon and all its brand names and all its variants and add-ons. people in the business have referred to it as kind of a lego

type weapon system. you can take the basic bones of an ar-15 frame and customize it any number of ways. we've seen in this collection of pictures we've been scrolling through we've seen ar-15 variants in the hands of law enforcement who are showing up to put down these suspects. another break for us. when we come back, another veteran former nypd officer. ♪ take on any road with intuitive all-wheel drive. the nissan rogue, murano and pathfinder. now get 0% apr for up to 72 months, plus $500 bonus cash. ♪ it's easy to love your laxative when that lax loves your body back. only miralax hydrates, eases and softens to unblock naturally,

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we're back. want to show you these two locations we're waiting for. on the left that will be the governor of louisiana. he has chosen to wait until more is known. quite frankly, it's surprising. i'm sure he is surprised and saddened that we still have kind of an acti iive kinetic situati in baton rouge where we don't yet know if they've got everybody, everyone who has been

firing at police. you'll recall in dallas we thought we had multiple gunmen in the downtown section, turned out as far as we know to be one. so let's hope and pray that the suspect who is dead was shot by police is the suspect in this case. we just don't know. we'll find out more when the governor appears. on the right, the very familiar looking briefing room podium, the west wing of the white house where members of the news media on a hot day outside are getting ready to televise the president's remarks that will come after the governor of louisiana. eugene o'donnell, someone we turn to often, former nypd officer, he these days is an attorney and has been a former prosecutor. good to see you again. your reaction to this latest tragedy. i just saw a stat we're dealing with 30 police officers killed across this country as of right now so far in 2016.

>> just like terrorism there's a theatrical to this if in fact it's what it turns out to be is a messaging. and we as a nation should reject the messaging, obviously, which is to drive people apart. it's important to note i'm sitting in chicago and i remember well an event that occurred several years ago a federal judge came home to find her entire family murdered by a white supremacist. so whenever, however this is done, we have to protect federal, state and local law enforcement. it might be, brian, as a result of this we're going to have to look at federalizing a deliberate targeted attacks on the police. this just can't be allowed. it just undermines our civilization. >> and look, we don't talk about it enough. but the wild west of our civilization is social media. and facebook and the like where the threats and the material posted there are unbelievable.

some untraceable. and they're relentless. >> absolutely. if you talk to anybody who does threat assessment, anybody in law enforcement, just domestic violence, we have a lot of aggrieved people in the country. we have people trying to act on those grievances. and unfortunately we do have weaponry. we can't ignore that. what the ultimate answer is how we can get past the partisan answer, but these are lethal things. you have people with bizarre ideas. if you spoke to them they'd make no sense at all. if you asked these people why did you do it, i'm not sure they could give you a coherent answer. but they're able to pick these weapons up and move out. it will be interesting to see also here these 911 calls we're going to want to hear if there are shots fired, there's likely a bunch of them. if it's a one lone caller that would point to the possibility you have somebody setting this up. in this case it would be a

female confederate because it sounds like a female caller. so we'll see. >> and, you know, eugene, in the backdrop of your remarks and in the backdrop of all of this we have both political parties gathering this summer. both campaigns. we have some hot rhetoric already in the campaign for president. this could be a longer and hotter summer than we feared. >> i just wrote a piece today in the daily beast, it was good to see the two presidents together last week, let's get people together to ask both candidates to address specific issues about policing and security in the country. and make the questions hard. and make them give specific answers. and don't let them get out of it. let not wait until we have further bloodshed. this is a good time now to ha have -- we have not been having a debate at all about the future. that has not been on the agenda, or how we're going to staff up police departments. many are dying on the vine.

we can't get people to do this job. we need solutions. and the community issues are complex. i don't think we need a rerun of a partisan conversation. the cops are not partisan. they're problem solvers. for whatever their faults are, they're doers. they're not talkers. we need more doing and less talking to solve these issues with respect. >> thank you, eugene. we just heard chief brown out in dallas say, we're hiring. come join up and work on change from within. and we'll assign you to the neighborhood where you grew up. a very appealing argument from a guy who grew up in the local neighborhood, came up through as a police officer, came up through commanding the s.w.a.t. team there. they're l