www.vitac.com he's calls you "crooked hillary" what. do you call him? >> i don't call him anything. and i'm not going to engage in that kind of insult fest that he seems to thrive on. >> she's done a good job of letting the water go off her back on this. that is not the way i feel. when i see this, you know, crooked hillary or i see the lock her up, it is just ridiculous. it is ridiculous. it is beneath the character of the kind of dialogue we should have. >> hillary clinton is joined by her running mate tim kaine and their first joint interview tonight on 60 minutes.

on friday the day after the convention ends, clinton-cade will embark on a bus tour through pennsylvania and ohio. let's meet the guests. thank you all for coming. you first, where they are going, very interesting. pennsylvania and ohio. tells you a lot about where they think this race is going to be won. >> yes and also you see the most recent polls that show certainly african americans do not like donald trump at all. zero in pennsylvania and ohio. i think what they are trying to is shore up the other areas of the those states that don't support hibbert. she has the cities locked down. it's smart to go through the states and make sure people get the message. >> running on loop was a super pac ad that zeroed in on steel workers.

american steel. a very effective ad ad. comes across like a trade industry ad but in the end it has that make america great trump logo that stuck in at the end. does donald trump have an opening despite the polls showing no tracks with african american. but are pennsylvania and ohio place where is he can actually beat hillary clinton? >> if he can figure how to make the message work and really part of his brand that then that can be a weak area for hillary clinton. as someone who covered bernie sanders for month he had a surprising victory in michigan and he had that because really understand these factors are gone. you can go to almost any city in the country and you can start saying remember the factory your grandfather worked at, the one you were laid off, all the companies that went to mexico? so that is a message that resonates with a lot of americas. and people think after make america great again. when you think about it this terms of trade and factory jobs people really believe that america was better when we had

those factors where things were made in america. >> that is the strength of the trump argument. but he isn't really using. it the temptation for a democrat a reagan dmoekt to go to a donald trump if they are undecided, would be on things like steel and trade. but what you have heard from donald trump himself are not attacks based on that. he's put out messages like still going back to ted cruz's dad and sort of personal attacks on hillary clinton. i want to let you listen to the way that donald trump is trying to go after tim kaine because i guess one of the things they have to do is try to impeach hillary clinton's new best friend here and future running mate. listen to donald trump this morning on "meet the press." >> how do you take all of these gifts? hundreds of thousands of dollars? the other thing about him, he's bought and owned by the banks. and thirdly he's in favor of tpp and every other trade deal he's ever looked at. >> he's talked about tim kaine

and hitting him on the issue of trade. was that effective way to make the argument? >> well i think you have to remember that donald trump is going for a different kind of message for a republican nominee. and it is a strictly populous message. and so he is hitting tim kaine. and what he's really hitting is hillary clinton's decision making. all as part of trying to contrast himself as the populous disrupter from the outside versus the establishment candidate or testablishment ticket. >> and important you say that because on the question of establishment, one of the question things that could theoretically disrupt the harmony at this convention is the big release from wikileaks, who we understand watches a.m. joy. we appreciate them tuning in for their tweets. they are tuning in to us. the leaks of the dnc e-mails in which they were trashing the sanders campaign.

some members of the dnc we should make that point. and this is coming out around the same time bernie sanders is saying he was going to support, in fact did support the opponent to debby wasserman shultz. the fallout, debby wassermz sch will not be speaking at the campaign. . >> in all seriousness i think what you see here is really the straw that broke the camel's back. wasserman shultz's leadership of the democratic party has seen problems before this. so democrats have to be careful not to let this distract over their overall message. and why sanders are also right to be upset they need to understand the bigger picture at handle.

>> they do. but they are not going to move on until i think this is resolved. and having covered the sanders campaign. i want you to listen to bernie sanders himself talking about the wikileaks revelation and what he wants to see done next. take a listen. >> this really does not come as a shock to me or my supporters. there is no question but the dnc was on skt clinton's side from day one. we all know that.ecretary clint from day one. we all know that. and i think as i've said a long time, that the time is now debby wasserman shultz to step aside not only for these issues. >> they issued a statement on these leaks and said hillary clinton has sad a number of times that senator sanders run an extraordinary hard fought campaign based on a very vigorous primary. and then went on to say this is further evidence the russian government is trying to influence the outcome of the election. that referring to the fact that russian hackers are the one

whose hacked into the dnc servers. what do you make of number one, this continuing demand for debby was schultz' she had. i think them saying they need --. tells you enough about the fact that is not our issue. we are now moving on to donald trump. >> but she has been an incredibly strong supporter of hillary clinton going back to the 2008 campaign. does it say anything to either of you that literally the -- >> i think at the end of the day they are trying to win an election and can't get caught up talking about the deb wasserman shultz gdebby wasserman shultz.

>> -- if he does win one that really says a lot because bernie sanders has all of these supporters. but for him to back her but then to also say in interviews while he was losing election well if i win you are out. i think says a lot about the fact he was not trying to hold any punches. so i think this is going to be in some ways interesting but i think i've within on the phone with a lot of democratic strg strategists and people are we have a hundred plus days to really beat donald trump. so we not get caught up in the infighting. because we have people that are now unified. they have had their convention. they are already starting to gear up and we can't get caught up in the infighting anymore. >> -- debby wasserman shultz could in theory say i have to focus on my race, if in thry -- there is a way it could play out. not that's happened. we're not reporting that. saying it is a possibility. but we want to go to you ben. you are from the opposing team but you are an expert in all things conventionry. talk to us about if in fact the

democratic party decided the easiest way. and debby wasserman shultz, very nice lady. unfortunate she's sort of the center of the drama here but she is. if the democratic party decided it wanted to remove its chairperson. can that be done during a convention? is there precedent? and if there is, how would that work? >> the democrats have already banished her from the convention itself. so she won't be appearing. probably what you would do is have the democratic national committee convening on friday the day after the convention and have them vote to do something then. it is worth noting, and i was a little worried that only the republican convention would be off script and have distractions this time. i think the e-mails and debby wasserman shultz.

>> we are in front of. and you won't be able to see it really the viewers at home. but behind me has been this continual parade of protests. a lot about environmental issues. they have been calling one about inflatable globe. talking about saving the earth. the environment. but there have also been some protesters down there shouting against tim kaine. shouts against things like fracking and tpp. could this woind wind up being divisive? >> there are two keys here. yes, him saying that he would prefer elizabeth warren to be the running mate doesn't help. but i this i sanders speech and tim kaine's speech are going to go a long way to heal the divide. really that is a question answered by the speeches and how people react. >> and you know the sanders campaign better than anybody

else. he's going to speak on the first night are lots of labor leaders. what are you expecting to hear? >> i think one, he is going to have a full-throated support of hillary clinton. i don't think we're going to get a ted cruz moment where he's going to go out there and vote your conscious. i don't think we're going to see any of that. i think we're going to see someone who said we had our differences and here is all the list of things maybe we still do not agree on. i don't think he's going to go out there and say i agree on everything. i think he's going say think of the better picture. and i think he's going to talk to his young supporters and say if this is your first time voting. if you don't understand how the politics works. i said i'm going run as democrat. i'm e keeping my word. don't feel betrayed. understand that supporting hillary clinton means that you are going to be closer to your goals than if you are just going to go off and do something else because i they they really need to make donald trump a boogeyman almost. there are a lot of supporters

i've talked to who say hillary clinton would be just as bad ads donald trump and he really needs to convince them that is not true and speak to them directly. >> everybody's sticking around. and coming up next bernie sanders campaign manager jeff weaver talked about the bernie factor. tim kaine and the dnc leaks. much more dnc coverage from philadelphia after the break. ♪ ♪ take on any road with intuitive all-wheel drive. the nissan rogue, murano and pathfinder. now get 0% apr for 72 months, plus $500 bonus cash. ♪ but my back pain was making it hard to sleep and open up on time. then i found aleve pm.

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party leader in itself. but may not be for long. suggesting party officials were biased for hillary clinton during the primary while publicly assisting they were neutral. we had a sit down with bernie sanders earlier. >> it was always the case and i think it was pretty clear debby wasserman shultz and some of her top people were clearly trying to put their finger on the scale. and, you know, this just bears that out. they are required by the dnc charter to be neutral. they clearly were not. they were trying to plant negative stories about senator sanders and even more disappointingly they were trying to attack him on his religion. just really not something should be going around. >> and the person who sent that e-mail apologized. but it is unprecedented. what do you want to see happen now? now that the person who did the e-mail about sanders religion has apologized what do you want

to see happen? >> we're trying to build unity. and you have this sort of thorn of debby wasserman shultz who's been really a figure of disunity. and i think it's time to put somebody in there with the capacity to lead in a way and bring unity to the party and energize those people we need to bring out in the fall. >> she's not going to be speaking. she should step down? >> absolutely. this isn't the full extent of the e-mails. there are going to be more e-mails. and it is only going to get worse and worse. there were some very heated times and it is only going to get worse and worse. they need to get rid of the problem and move on and build this unity. we need to defeat trump. >> and senator sanders has made

comment. he did speak with chuck todd this morning. let me play a little of what he said. >> this really does not come as a shock to me or my supporters. there is no but the dnc was on secretary clinton's side from day one. we all know that. and i think as i have said a long time ago that the time is now for debby wasserman shultz to step aside. not only for these issues. >> so very clear. that debby wasserman shultz in your view in the campaign's view should step aside. what if she doesn't is this. >> well i think look if probl problem -- the problem is we're trying to bring the party together. there are going to be thousands who boo her when she steps out on the convention. is that how you want to start? the republicans spent days of this whole lifting of the michelle obama's speech by mrs. trump. is that what we want to be talking about for two days here at the democratic convention about the e-mails and debby wasserman shultz and how she tried to skew the election in --

>> well let me show you what donald trump tweeted this morning. this is the second version because the first i think had some spelling issues so they redid it and fixed the spelling. this is what donald trump said. looks like the bernie people will fight. if not their blood, sweat and tears is a total waste of time. kaine stands for the opposite. and now a poll back in june of who sanders supporters say they will vote for. 55% hillary clinton, 22% donald trump. do you think there is a real chance that donald trump can pick up support from your voters? >> well i sure hope not. because donald trump stands for everything that bernie sanders does not stand for. they are really polar opposite. but the real concern is will some of the sanders supporters support third party candidates or just sit shoem and we need to take the fight to the republicans and donald trump in the fall. and this is a distraction. this whole e-mail thing is a distraction. we just need to get by and it this slow, drip, drip, drip of

nobody wanting to pull the band aid off is wrong. for the good of the party and secretary equilibrate's campaign in the fall we've got to full off the band aid and move on. >> no direct sport, no back up from the hillary clinton campaign for debby wasserman shultz. what you do make of the fact that hillary clinton campaign has essentially say ask debby wasserman shultz about her issues. we're not really backing her up. >> i don't want to speak for them obviously. i don't work for them. but i can not believe anyone in the clinton campaign would condone the behavior and discussions going on in those e-mails at the dnc. >> what are we going to hear from senator sanders? >> i think how we need to elect hillary clinton in the fall, how we need to continue the political revolution as he calls it. continue to fight for the progressive agenda he laid out during the campaign and that is largely encapsulated in the democratic party platform. >> you fought o hard on that

platform and the rules committee. lay out what you feel that the sanders campaign won in the platform and at the rules committee yesterday? >> look, there was very intense negotiations. i know there was criticism in carping out from some people who were not really in the know. but it didn't come from the clinton campaign because they knew we were in negotiations with them. so we had some very important things that were added to the platform. $15 minimum wij. free price on carbon. >> those are big confessions by hillary clinton. >> a gracious example of leadership. magnanimous. because they have an interest in bringing the party together as well. >> and the rules committee you have won some commission that is going to look at some of the rules and the campaigns, including super delegates. >> the sewer of super delegates is very important issue. we want to make sure the voters control the process. not the insiders. the commission if and when enacted will make two-thirds of

current super delegates pledge delegates so we'll have made a major reform. >> the congressional black caucus is very concerned. if you got rid of super delegates it would reduce the influence of african americans in the process. >> everybody is now a super delegate will still be coming to the convention. will still have a vote. the members of congress will be unplengd just as now. the others at delegate now will still be in special taths but they will have to vote in proportion to the states they represent? >> -- lot of supporters weren't happy. >> and people wanted a more overtly progressive candidate. i'd certainly appreciate that. i willive in virginia. i voted for tim kaine in the past. he's my senator. and his politics seem to be animated by his catholic faith and i sort of appreciate that. and hopefully as he finds his way as the vice president, he'll be more animated by that part of his experience. >> based on my unscientific twitter poll they did yesterday, it started out sort of ma hr on

tim kaine. jeff weaver thank you so much. >> as always. >> great to sea you. after the break we'll check in with nbc's jacob ras cone who is out among hundreds of protesters here in philadelphia ahead of this week's democratic national convention. that's next.

we are still one day out from the dnc but protesters are already lining up here in philadelphia. with hundreds marching right now in a demonstration, bill, as a march for bernie against the dnc. how much, nbc news correspondent jacob rascon is in the mix. what did we see today? the protesters thinned outlet a little bit but tell what you observed in those protests today? >> so the big headline is that

as you look ahead, and we're on top of a bus we have a good view there. you are going to find hundreds of people. the headline is that we are seeing more people today in this march than we saw all of last week in cleveland. and it is important to note that we had a different protest only several hours ago. this was about climate change, fracking and other things. that march itself was also bigger than anything we saw all last week in cleveland. so we have two different marches today before the dnc starts. both of which are bigger than anything we saw all of last week. as you pointed out, they had different purposes. this one is specifically a march against the dnc by bernie sanders supporters. one of the organizes are who was on top of the bus earlier yelling out to the crowd said they have a coalition of people coming from all around the united states. and i can tell you, and we'll try to zoom in again as this bus tries to catch up, they personally met people from as far away as new york, new

jersey. but then nebraska, southern california. who say they have either taken the day off or maybe they don't have a job. but they are here they say because they believe that this is a moment in political history they feel wronged about what happened to bernie sanders with the super delegates. many that i talked to are not happy about the pick in tim kaine. and many also bring up today --. they say it is further evidence of what they are upset about in terms of hillary clinton and the dnc in general. joy. >> so jacob, real quick, did you ask any of the protesters what they think of the fact that bernie sanders himself and then today jeff weaver's campaign manager? they both said they are for hillary clinton. jeff weaver said to me a little earlier today that he voted for tim kaine. they sort of endorsed the idea. bernie sanders hasn't but are they upset any way at bernie sanders and his campaign for getting behind hillary clinton?

>> as you might imagine, that is a sensitive subject. it is something they have asked. at least what you said first, the fact that bernie sanders endorsed hillary clinton. when i asked that question, they sort of don't at least most of them give a direct answer. they simply say that -- they kind of change the subject to they really are upset about hillary clinton. they understand a couple of them said what bernie was trying to do in making sure that donald trump is defeated. and we were wondering, as journalists, in coming to philadelphia, knowing that tens of thousands of protesters had signed up to come, if we were going to get anything near that number. because a lot of them signed up before bernie sanders has endorsed hillary clinton. but if today is any indication, we expect thousands of protesters this week. if i had to guess i'd say that the protests earlier today had at least a thousand people. one philadelphia police official said that he thought maybe more than 5,000. that seemed like a little much to me.

but this protest probably, this new one specifically for bernie sanders against the dnc, probably had 6, 700 people as well. so we're seeing big numbers. the organizers say they have more people on their way. a lot of them will be throughout the week. and they have, if you could boil it down to one goal. they want their voice be heard, that they are not going to quiet down simply because bernie sanders didn't get the nomination. or didn't become the presumptive nominee. some of them want to change the platform. for example the earlier protests specifically wanted that a no fracking be added to the platform. and we'll see a variety of purposes throughout week. but again, most of them will say they are bernie sanders supporters. >> all right. jacob rascon in the thick of that crowd. it is going to be interesting because that platform bernie sanders is going gave big endorsement to this week.

and coming up donald trump thinks his rnc speech a scratch. maybe it was the day your baby came home. or maybe the day you realized your baby was not a baby anymore. every subaru is built to earn your trust. because we know what you're trusting us with. subaru. kelley blue book's most trusted brand. and best overall brand. love. it's what makes a subaru, a subaru.

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smoothies, only from tums. do you think it was rough? >> to me it was an optimistic speech. >> what's optimistic? >> because we're going solve the problems. sure i talk about the problems. but we're going to solve the problems. >> joining us to discuss is msnbc contributors and more awesome people. thank you all for being here. all right, you first. what do you think? optimistic speech? >> it wa not optimistic. the political strategy of pessimism and fear mongering works for his base. to say anything else other than that buzz completely disingenuous. we can quibble and debate about points he's making about crime levels dropping or law and order

ideology is important at this moment in american politics we we cannot debate at the pessimistic tone of the speech. >> you read the speech. it was actually even darker than when he delivered it. >> most definitely. and it could be perceived as optimistic if you are for white supremacy. if you are for -- >> -- >> yeah about the old days coming back. >> right. >> that is really the only way you can conceive it as being somehow positive or hopeful. really i think what he's trying to do here is trying to have it both ways. he's trying to make sure he gets everyone fearful but at the same time looks like he's actually running a conventional campaign. >> and you do have, you know, a lot of devotion to the idea and the memory of ronald reagan in the republican party and i would dare say among a lot of people who are supporting donald trump. but i ran into a couple of republicans very conservative and strategists after that

speech who agreed with my assessment that it was really one of the darkest sort of most maudlin speeches that i heard in the time i've been following politics. what is your impression? optimistic or dark? >> i think if you are the disrupter candidate you need to convince people that there are real problems that traditional politics like hillary clinton is missing, not aware of, oblivious too. and that was the purpose of this speech. so it was a dark speech. and of course the risk that he runs in setting out the problems and the need to solve them in the way that he did is that it does leave open the 1984 reagan morning in america. so it will be interesting to' as you have a disrupter and the establishment candidate how they go -- how they try and describe the problems in america. are you being realistic about what ails the country?

are or are you going to give the "gee we've been doing great, give me obama's third term". and that is the match up you have. >> and i don't think it is quite that simple. because i don't think hillary clinton is out there saying everything is perfect i think what they are doing though is giving a real sort of america is -- is great. she's sort of got this america is already great kind of built into her message. so we don't node need to make it great again. it is already great. one thing donald trump has been doing is using bernie sanders language and in that speech do you think that the message that you heard donald trump conveying matches the world view of sanders supports are who are also quite pessimist nick a lot of ways about the country. >> i think they are pessimistic in some ways. the idea of wring trade back. the idea of more jobs. instead of a high school diploma you need a college degree. so this idea that america hasn't quite caught one what it -- what

people really need to be great in america. but i think that the idea that bernie sanders would never talk about law and order. would never talk about the idea that he can fix crime rates. when he was talking -- when bernie sanders talks about rime and issues. he talk about the education the idea that we're criminalizing people. race is crete completely involved fl that idea. and while some people will go to them. and i've talked to a lot of bernie sanders support who are say they have -- that when they hear trump they hear things that make sense to them. i also even have people who if they vote for trump he'll ruin the count so i have badly that will this liberal revolution will come out of that. and especially a lot of younger supporters think that way. you know, we just need to get things to be -- >> so bad, yeah. well susan sarandon the actress said a version o of that. on an historical level i've

been kpiecomparing donald trump george wallace. there are elements of the pat buchanan. where do you see the antecedent to what donald trump is doing? >> i would say more nixon than reaganesque for sure. and i think the law and order piece of this is really really important. when you think about what law and order means to different populations in america, like to black folks and people of color and poor folks, law and order is a history of nixonian politics really put in place a sort of police state reaction to the civil rights movement that evolved into the mass incarceration and aggressive policing tactics and evolved into the militarization of the police itself. it sounds for pessimistic. people looking for reform that looks like leer moving in the wrong direction. but the reality is trump is a figure unto himself. and every time we try to situate him in a particular historical context it doesn't make any

sense pause he's not playing by that rule book. >> and ben, you know, you had some republicans who are of the really steeped in reagan wing of the party. people like george will come out and say they absolutely will never support donald trump. george will slamming pence. and mike block berg. a pretty decently conservative guy. he'll come out for hillary clinton. does donald trump risk severing the part of the republican party that is the romney wing? really severing them in a way they can't be brought back? >> well that is what the campaign is going to show us. i would not jump to that conclusion right now. but there is app similar discorded note in what you have been talking about today. bernie sanders and jeff weaver's main point is that they are leading a new movement. yet, they are also trying to say

that the way for that movement forward is hillary clinton and tim kaine who bernie sanders said this morning does not represent his political beliefs. but there is a time of sort of discord within the country as a whole. and both the republican party and democratic party are showing basic splits in their fundamental coalitions that have held true for so long. >> and very quickly before i let grow, ben. how alarming is it for republican leaders that david duke and the alt right and members of the national organizations are really glomming onto the trump campaign? i think one more retweet by a donald trump surrogate where he retweeted a white nationalist and then had to apologize for it. is this alarming to people within the republican leadership. >> yes it is. reince priebus is the chairman. the national republican senatal committee folks all repud indicated david duke right away.

but e-mails that leaked out. was the person within the party hierarchy who said let's plant questions about bernie sanders faith. so this is unfortunately not a oneway street in this election year. that will have to do more block. jam coming up. much more coverage from the dnc in philadelphia. stay with us. now she writes mostly in emoji.

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all right. everybody, various news outlets are reporting and high level news discussions are going on as we speak about the future of debby wasserman shultz as the head of the democratic national committee. the associated press reporting those discussions include friends of the clintons, also hearing from the "new york times," that friends of the clintons are now openly discussing whether debby wasserman shultz should be released, let go from the dnc so as not to serve as a distraction. the a quote. debby dingell of michigan. bluntly telling her to resign. and reporting that she should

resign as not to serve a distraction. joining me now: and joining us now is the washington post ej deon. i'll e.j. -- oh, i should also note nbc news has not and cannot confirm any of this information. we are simply reporting what we hear from other news outlets as i read off of my executive producer's phone, television, live tv, ej, what do you make of all this? >> i thought all day long she was going to have to go. there are two reasons. one is the last thing you want is this story, the wikileaks dominating the news. and she now has a way of looking good and saying i didn't have anything to do with this, but i'm going to take responsibility. because you can't be messing around with somebody's religion in the democratic party. >> right. >> but also, the clinton campaign wants to turn this story to where did this come from? >> right. >> they want people to look at the links between paul manafort and the pro putin ukrainians and

all that. >> yeah. >> they could not make any turn in this story as long as debbie wasserman schultz and the leak itself were the dominant news. >> and if i can request our producers sort of doing this on the fly can backup that statement from the clinton campaign that makes ej's point. while you're grabbing that i'll turn to you on this, james and yamiche, because the republican party had such a disastrous opening, right? the first three days were just careening from sham bollic event to event to wrap it up at the end only for trump to come out and go crazy afterwards. but they were planning on this smooth campaign and this is what we're talking about. >> a dnc scheduling problem, right? because monday is the first sort of bernie sanders -- >> that's right. it's all bernie people. >> it's the labor guys out there. >> yeah. >> they really want monday to be the splash. and monday is a sort of olive branch to the left wing. if this is the dominant story, as ej's saying, that's going to be problematic for what they're trying to accomplish with the dnc this week.

>> we have that statement. let me read that statement quickly so we can throw it into the prompter i don't have written down in front of me. but this is what the hillary clinton campaign had to say. they said hillary clinton has said a number of times publicly that senator sanders ran an extraordinarily hard fought campaign based on a real vigorous and contested primary. as far as dws and bernie, that's a question to ask debbie wasserman schultz. they go onto say, we're going to keep going, this is further evidence the russian government is trying to influence the outcome of the election. to that point exactly, they want to focus on the fact these were russian hackers that hacked into the dnc server. but they can't get on that message as long as we're talking about debbie wasserman schultz. >> one thing you just talked about monday being the olive branch to the left. i have to disagree with you a little bait because bernie has been saying if he won the nomination, he was going to oust debbie wasserman schultz. >> he said she should go today. >> yeah, but he's been saying that also as bernie tends to do

he's been repeating himself and he's been saying that before. so imagine on the day bernie sanders takes the stage he's now saying this is my party in some ways. hillary clinton, you got the nomination, that's fine. but i won the soul of the party. for debbie wasserman schultz to be gone, for all the people that he has been walking around and running around the country presenting as the future of the democratic party, this could be actually i think a very powerful move for bernie sanders. and it could show his supporters that we did make changes. these are concrete changes you can see this woman is now -- she's the first example of the bernie sanders movement of the party. >> is that concrete change? or is that a personal vendetta between bernie sanders and debbie wasserman schultz that he wins, right? i don't understand how that could be as large -- to her point, do we stand on the brink of disappearing to be a convention which essentially hillary clinton has capitulated in large part in many measures, but even that today on the sunday show bernie sanders didn't endorse. the idea of that running mate.

>>ic it's hard to say that the person getting the nomination who picked someone she wanted, not bernie wanted, is capitulating to bernie. >> but on the -- >> right. if she does get rid of her, you want bernie to be in an excellent mood when he gives that speech tomorrow night. >> right. >> and you'd really like some of the later interviews today he was a little nicer to tim kaine. by tomorrow night he might be nicer still to tim kaine. >> yeah. >> and so i think that this as you said cleveland was such a mess. and democrats were looking forward to a real range of endorsees for hillary clinton, powerful ones like president obama, michelle obama, joe biden. you don't want anything to get in the way of that. >> i hate to break in but our own marc murray, our fantastic political director here at nbc news is now reporting that debbie wasserman schultz has in fact stepped down as the chair of the democratic national committee. this is a big victory for bernie sanders camp for bernie sanders

himself. he's been calling for her ouster for months. there has been this open charge within the sanders campaign that the dnc was stacking the deck for hillary clinton. yamiche, you covered that campaign. how big is this going to be for those people protesting down there saying bernie, bernie and for the sanders supporters. >> this is going to be huge because bernie sanders part of the things people talked about him was the fact he had all these ideas, he was always vague, couldn't get things done. but this is something that in some ways you could saberny sanders is starting to get things done. and these protesters here they're going to say now we have a chance to make this party our party. i think that's going to energize his base and energize people i think that were backing bernie sanders now back hillary clinton because they're saying we can see moves. even if hillary clinton isn't herself going to come to us, we're going to make her move. and they can tack this off, tpp, college, health care, they're winning real things. i think it's big. >> from a historical perspective, we have seen the

democratic party make changes and always to the right. >> that's right. >> it's moved to the right over and over and over. including when jimmy carter became the standard bear. >> that's right. >> when is the last time the party has moved this decisively to the left? >> i can't remember ever in my lifetime. it has not been in my lifetime. if you think about what the clinton sort of democratic ideology represents, it represents centerist politics that drift to the right. >> that's right. >> this is a sea change moment. huge victory for the bernie sanders wing of the party and also for all the leftists who feel the democratic party left them behind. >> i think reality left in the country after the crash of 2008. >> yeah. >> you have heard more republicans start to talk about economic inequality. >> yeah. it's a good change. these two parties are completely different parties than from where the cycle started. thank you to you all. that is our show for this hour. thank you for watching. up next, my colleague tamron

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after all watching over your credit is one of the most important skills of all. go to experian.com to enroll in experian creditworks today. we are following major breaking news from philadelphia just a day before the official start of the democratic national convention. and the news this hour is that the dnc chairman debbie wasserman schultz will step down at the end of her party's convention, which is after thursday. i'm sure you've been watching the developments throughout the day, especially the last few days after an explosive report wikileaks leaking out some 20,000 e-mails from the hacker detailing some intimate conversations regarding members of the dnc, particularly an e-mail t