and if i watch it, i have a feeling i would have a different opinion. it is the place where lies unravel. and alibis crumble. >> why wouldn't you abduct him? tell me that. >> the interrogation room, or as cops call it, the box. >> remember, he doesn't like you. he doesn't trust you. and he doesn't respect you and you've got to overcome those three things before you're going to get a confession. >> in california, a seasoned detective takes us along for a psychological showdown with a suspected serial rapist. >> what pushed you into the idea of forcing sex on women?

>> and in arkansas, a boy tells us about being 12 and on the other side of the table. >> you killed your sister. >> i didn't kill her. >> they automatically assumed i was this demonic little kid. >> i didn't kill my sister. >> leave me alone. >> now, go where cases can be made or broken. msnbc takes you inside the box. april 21st, 1999. homicide investigator larry hobson leads rex krebs into the

box or the interview room. a college town just off california's central coast. >> been my experience that many, many investigators when they go into do an interview or interrogation they don't have a plan set up ahead of time. they sit down, they start talking. they wing it. the first thing you have to do is develop some type of rapport or that person is not going to talk to you at all. >> hobson, assistant chief investigator for the san luis obispo district attorney's office makes sure krebs handcuffs immediately come off. >> you sit down to talk to someone about a serious crime, the worst thing you can do is keep reminding him of possible consequences. handcuffs are a consequence. having a gun exposed where he can see it is a consequence.

a badge, a badge on your belt. they all represent confinement. he's going to go to prison. and you don't want that. >> have you ever met rachel? >> krebs has been in custody for some 30 days. since police found a bb gun at his job. a violation of his parole. but both krebs and his interrogator know that's not why they're here. two young women, students at nearby colleges, have gone missing. one taken off the street. the other from her home in the middle of the night. police suspect that the women have fallen victim to a sexual predator. >> san luis obispo county have a lot of people convicted of sex offenses and just about any one of them could have done something like this.

>> rex krebs is one of dozens of sex offenders interviewed by police. he and hobson have been talking for weeks, informally at the county jail. since krebs parole agent notifies the task force there is a parallel between the way the women apparently vanished and the suspect's past. >> back in may 1987, he committed a rape. he had broken through the bathroom window, and at the end of that crime, he hog tied the victim and left the residence and i'll never forget this, he said to the victim, have a nice day. >> krebs serves ten years for the rape. as well as another sexual assault. now investigator hobson believes it is time to interview krebs on camera hoping to extract a confession and find the college students. rachel and andrea.

>> if you were going to do that crime, and you saw somebody you wanted to abduct, bear with me here, this is a hypothetical, that you wanted to abduct, take some place, how would you do it? >> i'm not even going to talk about that. >> he's evaluating me as much as i'm evaluating him. i'm watching rex's nonverbal behavior and it is open and outgoing. very animated with his hands. he's leaning forward on occasion, talking. >> hobson realizes it won't be easy to get krebs to confess. but with 28 years of law enforcement experience, the investigator believes he knows the criminal mind. >> why couldn't you be the person that is responsible for rachel and andrea's disappearance? >> why couldn't i be? >> why wouldn't you abduct them?

tell me that. >> it is not in my makeup. >> hobson appears to take krebs at his word, asking the suspect for help understanding the mentality that led to his past crimes. >> you're not a bad looking guy. well put together. you were young at the time, 21. probably could have, you know, in fact, you were engaged, weren't you? what was it at that young age, especially 21, pushed you into the idea of forcing sex on women? >> mama. >> how's that? >> want the whole story? >> i'm not a psychiatrist, psychologist. trying to get him to talk. in an hour or less, i'm going to confront him. >> mom and dad divorced when i was 5 because mom decided she

wanted to drink and [ bleep ]. >> maybe i'm missing something. how does this tie into forcing yourself on other women? >> hated women. >> okay. >> all women or just certain women? >> i think it was pretty much all women. no respect. >> maybe tomorrow, next week, next year, ten years from now, i don't know. we're going to find the person that is responsible for both andrea and rachel's disappearance. what do you think should happen to them when we find them? >> kill him. >> kill him. >> that's a question that i ask almost in any interview interrogation i do because it tells you a lot in the answer. most people look at themselves and think what should happen to me for doing this. >> kill him. >> kill him. >> rex kind of surprised me with his answer, coming off right

away and saying that whoever did this should be put to death. but at the same time, he, i think, at that point, was believing that we didn't think he did it. >> but police have been to krebs house. and found items he thinks he's hidden. investigator hobson is waiting for his moment to turn the interview into an interrogation, revealing the secrets and taking the unusual step of bringing the woman krebs loves into the interrogation room. his stellar notebooks will last through june. get back to great. this week, these items just one cent each. office depot officemax. gear up for school. gear up for great. ♪

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san luis obispo, california, april 21st, 1999. >> i never disagreed with you guys investigating me. i haven't. >> homicide investigator larry hobson interviews rex krebs, a

registered sex offender, serving time in a parole violation. krebs says he knows nothing about the whereabouts of missing college coeds rachel newhouse and andrea crawford. but the investigator is about to reveal evidence he thinks ties krebs to the disappearances. >> after a two, two and a half hour interview, i confronted him for the very first time and then it became an interrogation. >> do you want me to -- >> my fingerprints are all over it. >> krebs has kept the trinket in a wooden box in his house. task force members watching from an adjoining room have been told andrea crawford always carried the same key chain.

>> rapists will sometimes take items from the victims. it keeps the memory of the rape and the domination and everything that goes with a rape fresh in their mind so they can relive it. >> he handed it back to me. and acted like he didn't know who it belonged to. still pretty loose and open. >> one other thing, he jumps out, only have one jump seat in the back of the truck, right? >> mm-hmm. >> what happened to the other one? >> we found that his truck had a jump seat that was missing. eventually we found the jump seat underneath his house. way back in a corner. and it was obvious somebody had scrubbed on it trying to clean things up. so we didn't even fool with it, we just packaged it up, sent it off to the crime lab.

>> you're familiar with dna, i'm sure. the results and so forth. and guess whose blood that is. rachel newhouse. >> at that point, rex stopped being animated. he stopped being open. he stopped being talkative. >> it was out of control, right? >> rex, look at me. got out of control? rex, tell me what you're thinking. tell me what's going through your head. >> at that point, i got concerned because once rex said he wanted an attorney, that means the interview was done, we wouldn't be able to try to recover the bodies or do any follow- follow-up. it was over.

i did not want him to invoke his rights to remain silent. so you have to treat him with kid gloves. >> talk to me. look at me. it is not easy. it is not easy. i know that. >> he shuts me off verbally, but when i touch him, that brings him back into, okay, i'm talking to him. he can feel the touch. with rex, it still didn't work. >> you sit there, and try and keep beating on me. >> i'm not beating on you. >> yeah, you are. i'm not going to say nothing. >> i was afraid if i pushed it any further he would invoke. a made the decision to shut the interrogation down and hopefully be able to resume it the next day. >> oh, we were pissed but we

trusted him. he was a way more seasoned investigator than i was at the time and, like, okay, he's doing this for a reason. >> what follows is a long sleepless night for both the interrogator and the suspect. followed by a stunning decision to let the sex offender tell his story directly to his pregnant girlfriend. >> rex, please. get back to great. this week, these items just one cent each. office depot officemax. gear up for school. gear up for great. ♪ using 60,000 points from my chase ink card i bought all the fruit... veggies... and herbs needed to create a pop-up pick-your-own juice bar in the middle of the city, so now everyone knows... we have some of the freshest juice in town.

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after questioning registered sex offender rex krebs for more than three hours, about two missing college students, investigator larry hobson notices the suspect's retreating into himself. >> i agreed to take him back to his cell, he's in the back seat telling me he's a dead man walking. next morning, i went out to the jail 6:00 a.m., and i said, rex, this isn't going to go away. we need to talk. and he says, all right.

>> once again, the pair enter the interrogation room. very quickly hobson senses his gamble has paid off. >> are you responsible for the disappearance of both girls? are we going to find either girl alive? that was a no? okay. >> krebs begins describing the events of november 12th, 1998. driving through town and spotting 20-year-old rachel newhouse, just after she leaves a bar, popular with cal poly students. >> premonition where she was going. >> premonition, okay. where did you think she was going? >> up on the bridge. >> krebs says he parks belotw te jennifer street bridge, a

pedestrian walkway. >> he put on a mask, one that is you've probably seen in the "scream" movie, a scream mask. he puts this mask on, and he steps off to the side so she can't see him as she comes up the ramp. >> what happens next? >> i attacked her. >> when you say you attacked her, what do you mean attacked her? >> turn around and hit her. >> and where did you hit her? >> across the jaw, i believe. >> okay. okay, now she's unconscious, laying on the bridge. what happens? >> i grabbed her and dragged her down to my truck. >> okay. you say you drug her. what do you mean by that? >> drug her down the stairs. >> you didn't carry her down? >> no. >> how did you drag her? >> by her hair.

>> krebs recalls tying up rachel and driving toward his home beyond the city limits. >> what happens in there? >> i raped her. >> he had a very sophisticated system of knot tying. rex claims during the night, rachel struggled with the ropes, being around her neck and her feet and she actually strangled herself and she died. >> took a shovel with me. >> all right. >> budug a grave and buried her. >> so far, the interrogation is going as hobson had hoped. krebs talks about sinking back into normal life, working at a lumberyard, where he's regarded as a star employee. but just a few months later, he

says he's driving around and becomes fixated on andrea crawford when he spots her returning to her off campus home after classes at quest college. >> then one night he was at home drinking and decided this was the night he was going to abduct andrea. so he drove into town, parked his vehicle in front of her duplex. trying all the doors. all the windows. and they were all locked. >> then krebs says he notices a small bathroom window and lowers himself into the shower. >> what happens. >> i hit her. >> you punched her? >> yeah. >> where? >> in the mouth. >> how many times did you punch her? >> three or four times. >> what happens? >> goes unconscious. >> krebs says he hog ties his victim and wraps a pillow case

around her head with duct tape. then he carries her out her front door to his truck and drives her to his property. >> put her in the bedroom, put her on the bed, untide her, took her clothes off, raped and sodomized her. >> what is she saying? >> she didn't say nothing. >> what did you do? >> strangle her. >> okay. how did you strangle her? >> piece of rope. >> what happened? >> she died. >> after covering the body with hog wire, to ward off animals, krebs digs a grave, ironically he then buys flowers for his pregnant girlfriend rosalynn. >> does rosalynn know anything about this one? >> nobody knows anything about them. >> just you and i? >> just you and me.

>> despite krebs' confession, police are anxious to find the victims' bodies. krebs agrees to lead authorities to the graves, but first he would like a favor from larry hobson. >> he loved rosalynn very much, obviously. he says, larry, he says, is it possible that i can sit down and talk with rosalynn and my boss and tell them what i did rather than have them see it on the news? and i felt that was a fair request based on what he had just confessed to. plus it was another chance for us to hear his confession to somebody other than me. >> how are you doing? >> in a barely audible voice, krebs gently tells the future mother of his child that he is the one who raped and killed the

two college students. >> oh, my god. no. rex, please. >> it was emotional. it really was. >> why? >> she had a serial killer for a boyfriend and she didn't know it. >> leave me alone. god. >> calm down. >> she was at that time i think about 7 months pregnant. and immediately started to hyperventilate to the point we finally had to call a paramedic to come and treat her. >> whenat's going on? >> she just got some bad news. >> with the interrogation over, krebs brings investigators to the crime scene, keeping had his promise to larry hobson. >> he liked larry. weird relationship. but it is a relationship. >> despite that relationship, hobson testifies at krebs 2001

trial, persuading a jury to send the killer to death row for raping and killing the students. from san quentin, krebs writes christmas cards to hobson, grateful for the way the investigator questioned him, with decency and kindness. >> it just shows that he respected me for the job i had to do. just business. >> coming up, when at is it liko be 12 years old and sitting in the interrogation chair. >> i didn't do it. i didn't kill my sister. his stellar notebooks will last through june. get back to great. this week, these items just one cent each. office depot officemax. gear up for school. gear up for great.

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i'm richard lui. crews near california's big sur continue to battle a massive and deadly wildfire. the blaze spans about 60 square miles and is only 15% contained.

that wildfire is already blamed for killing one person. 57 homes completely destroyed and another 2,000 are at risk. and officials now say two people have died following flash flooding, in about 25 miles west of baltimore. a state of emergency there declared by the governor. now back to caught on camera. camden, arkansas, august 2006. >> you know i didn't do it. >> who did? >> 12-year-old thomas cogdell begins talking to himself, alone, in an interrogation room after police tell him he's responsible for the murder of his 11-year-old sister, caylee.

>> i didn't do it. >> unlike rex krebs, thomas is a complete stranger to the criminal justice system. >> he's 12. his sister's dead. he's emotionally an infant at this point. emotional wounds were visible, this child would have bled to death before the first interview was over. >> in the summer of 2006, thomas is about to enter the eighth grade, while living here with caylee and their mother melody jones. melody is on disability, she tells the authorities she suffers from mental illness. and has attempted suicide at least once. >> she could go from one emotion to the other in a snap.

if we -- me and my sister were playing, got too loud or anything, my mother would flip out, start yelling and screaming, maybe grab something and hit one of us. i would stay away from her. i didn't know how she would act. >> on august 7th, shortly after they find caylee's body in her bedroom, both thomas and his mother are asked to come to camden police headquarters. thomas enters the box. or interview room. what follows is a remarkable window into the interrogation process, from the suspect's point of view. >> did you argue with your sister very often? >> every now and then, like, maybe once a day. >> i just answered their questions. i didn't think there would be anything wrong in telling them, just saying this is what happened in our house, how our house functions.

>> just after the 30 minute mark, detectives get more specific, questioning thomas about the circumstances surrounding caylee's death. thomas recalls being woken up by his mother some time before noon. and told to accompany her to caylee's room to deliver a letter from a friend. >> my mom woke me up. she was like that. >> like what? >> tied up with bags over had her head and my mom ripped off the bags and i went around to her other side and she was all cold and blue. >> her hands were tied. >> how were they tied? >> i don't know. in a knot. i couldn't get it undone. neither could my mom. >> the apparent murder weapons are the family's personal items, both thomas and his mother say caylee's hands are tied with the

dog's leash. while her feet are bound with cloth measuring tape. the two shopping bags s on caylee's face come from wall administrate. >> i didn't know she was debt yesterday. i feared there was something wrong but wasn't aware fully. >> thomas. >> i'm with the state police. and i've been kind of listening to some of the story you've been telling. and i'm going to tell it to you just like it is. you're an intelligent boy, aren't you? >> yes. >> well, we're pretty intelligent too. >> okay. >> and the bottom line is nobody broke in that house last night. so your sister died. and there was only two people in the house that could have killed her. >> okay. >> you or your mother. >> but police apparently don't believe melody jones murdered

caylee. >> now, all i want to know, i really want to know why. >> why what? >> why you would kill your sister. >> i wouldn't. >> but you have to have because your mother didn't, that just leaves you. >> well, i didn't kill her. i know i didn't. >> i'm starting to realize she was dead. scared. i'm getting a bit frustrated at the police for asking me all these questions. it pushes me over the edge. i start to break down. >> you killed your sister. >> i didn't kill her. i didn't. >> you'll feel a whole lot better if you tell me. >> i didn't. i didn't kill her. i did not. >> who killed her? it had to have been you, son. >> i didn't do it. i didn't kill my sister. i didn't kill her.

is there any way i can prove that to you? >> it is going to be difficult. >> i'm going in circles, there is nothing else i could think about but what there had to be somebody else that got in there but the cops kept saying that wasn't the case. >> i'm not saying you killed had her. >> okay. >> there is a possibility it could have been an accident, i don't remember, okay. but i don't remember. >> the interrogation is taking a critical turn. >> i'm starting to be convinced that maybe i just don't remember, maybe i'm wrong. i'm getting to the point where i'm starting to maybe accept what they're telling me. >> is there a possibility. you two playing around and you p tied her up. >> thomas is beginning to change his story.

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nice work phillips'. the tasty side of fiber, from phillips. . in a camden, arkansas, police station, 12-year-old thomas cogdell is in big trouble. for more than an hour, police have been asking questions about his younger sister caylee. thomas and his mother say they found her that morning tied up with a dog's leash and measuring tape, and suffocated with two walmart shopping bags over her head. what thomas doesn't realize is

that on the other side of the interrogation room walls, his paternal grandfather steve harris has come to assist him. >> i said i would like to see my grandson. and they said, well, we're interrogating him. and i said, does he have a lawyer? a child advocate? they said, no, and the strangest thing they said was, since 9/11, that's all changed. >> officers point out that thomas' mother melody jones is also in the building. and has given them permission to interview the boy. >> i said, she's bipolar, she has just lost her daughter, she's in a destroyed state, she's not competent enough to help him or help herself. and they said, as long as she says we can talk to thomas, that's all we need. >> i just wanted for the record that you did allow us to talk to

thomas. is that correct? >> yes. >> melody jones declined to be interview ed by msnbc. >> a parent should not be able to give up your rights, especially when she's the only other person that could have done it. >> even worse for thomas, he's giving investigators information that is starting to work against him. like details of a game he played with caylee, using handcuffs made of yarn. >> could you have been in a room since mama wasn't in bed and you all decided to play and tie each other up? >> no. i don't tie her up with leashes and -- >> but you could have been in there and say, come on, let's play prison break or whatever. >> i don't remember. >> and then tie her up. >> i don't remember. >> that's fine. because you're playing a game. >> i tied her up and did this by

accident. i feel like they were trying to find some friction between us. >> no. >> you said you had some anger problems. >> yes. >> who is your anger directed to most of the time? >> my sister. >> and why is that? >> because she argues with me. she bosses me around, she doesn't respect me because i'm older. she is supposed to respect me. >> i don't know what's going on. my sister's gone. why don't we try to find the person who did this. why are you asking me all these questions? >> do you know what time it is? i'm getting very hungry. >> 90 minutes into the interrogation, thomas is brought into another room to eat. law enforcement officials stay with him the entire time. >> they took that child off camera for three hours and 30, 40 minutes.

i guess they didn't want us to know what was being said because they certainly had the ability to record it. >> while thomas eats, melody jones replaces her son in the interrogation room. >> were you at any way involved in the death of your daughter? >> no, sir. i wouldn't hurt her like that. i don't even like thinking of death. i wouldn't do that and don't think thomas would either. >> when you watch that tape, whenever you get past thomas wouldn't hurt his sister, then generally speaking you get some tears, followed by something derogatory or negative about thomas. that he blows up. he's on medication. he doesn't have friends. he doesn't like church. things of that nature. >> when you catch him doing something, is he good about going and fessing up or is he

the type that is going to deny it to the end? >> he denies it. >> they automatically assumed i was this violent socially withdrawn pretty much demonic little kid where i black out and do crazy violent things. >> i'm going to tell you, the good lord would be a good place to start. i don't feel like i should push him into church. if you don't -- >> he just sits there. >> better than sitting in hell. >> i know. >> this is a very churchy city, i guess. everyone here believes in god, goes to church every sunday. and for a 12-year-old kid to say i don't like going to church makes you feel uncomfortable, it is weird. >> if he would do this once, he

might do it again. it would have to be in fear for anybody he's around, any other children or young person or even you. >> at a certain point, detectives excuse themselves and leave melody alone. when they do, the camera picks up a faint sound from another room. >> you hear the words from a male voice, thomas, i'm not going to ask you -- and it fades off and i think the next word is again. and it is about at that point that thomas says that he decided that it was time to go ahead and tell them what they wanted to hear. >> after i get through eating, this other man comes in, and we start talking and then he starts to get angry and says, if you do not confess, we will charge you

with the death penalty as an adult. and they start telling me these little bits of information i could work in a story. maybe i got angry because she wouldn't listen to me. maybe we were playing around, it was an accident. or maybe i just blacked out and don't remember any of it. i don't want to die. so i told them i did it. >> yet thomas says he thinks he's going home that night. and he tells his mother he knows the one fact he's sure will set him free. for lower back pain sufferers,

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august 7th, 2006. police rush to this small house

in camden, arkansas, after receiving a report of an 11-year-old girl bound and smothered in her bedroom with two wal-mart shopping bags. hours later, her 12-year-old brother, thomas, sits in an interrogation room ready to confess. if thomas seems calm, he says there's a reason. he's convinced investigators will soon clear him in the death of his sister kaley. >> all i'm thinking of is if i just get through this and tell them what they want to hear, that i can go home, get done with this. >> we're going to go over it with you to make you understand what your rights are. >> police read thomas his rights. >> i hereby voluntarily, knowingly, and intelligently waive them and agree to answer questions. you understand a waiver? >> uh-uh.

what's a waiver? >> it simply says that what you're saying, you're doing on your own free will. >> okay. >> the definition they gave was incorrect. he's 12 years old. he does not comprehend what it means to give up a right to an attorney. >> what happened last night at your house between you and your sister that led up to where we are today. >> she was asleep with the tv still on. i put the trash bags over her head, and i held them there for a few minutes. >> what are you calling a trash bag? >> the wal-mart bag. the wal-mart bag over her head. and she jerked her head up. i tied it over her feet. after pulling her arms up from under her. >> he comes back and he's a

robot. he is not the same person he was three and a half hours ago. >> thomas now waits for police to bring his mother into the interrogation room. he tells us investigators he'll confess to her, too. under one condition. he wants to do it privately. the investigators leave the room. but the camera continues to roll. >> mom? >> uh-huh. >> i whispered in her ear, don't worry what i'm about to tell you, it's not true. what they're going to find out tomorrow, my prints are not on the bags or anything. >> the officer testified he told thomas that the fingerprints from the person who killed kaley would be on the bag at a certain angle. well, thomas was smart enough to know that he had never touched

those bags. he had not held those bags to kaley's face. >> you understand? i did it. i'm the one who did that to kaley. it was an accident. i'm sorry. okay? >> were you mad at her? >> yeah, she kept disrespecting me. >> okay. let's go. we can't. you need to sit down, okay? >> remember, don't tell nobody. >> i think thomas was afraid that if she told them that he was going to be taken out in another room and interrogated some more. >> what did he whisper to you? >> he said to go along with what he said, because he doesn't --

he says he doesn't -- he said he didn't do it. and that y'all wouldn't find his fingerprints. >> his statement was very detailed, in my opinion. but he's wanting to hold back on you because he doesn't want you mad at him. that's probably what it amounts to. >> he should trust me. >> thomas doesn't return home. on march 18th, he goes on trial for the murder of his younger sister. >> there was absolutely no evidence to connect thomas to this crime, except his confession. my theory at the trial was that someone, not thomas, had held

kaley's head into the pillow. when i asked the medical examiner if the cause of death was consistent with a large person straddling kaley and holding her head in the pillow, he said yes. that was consistent with her suffocation. not saying it was the only way, but he said that was certainly consistent. >> i kneeled down on the bed, and put the bags over her head. >> nonetheless, thomas's words in the interrogation room are too powerful for the judge overseeing the case. and thomas is convicted of second-degree murder. >> i was shocked. i figured, how could he come to that verdict when it's so obvious that i didn't do it.

>> during nearly three years in juvenile detention, thomas is a model inmate. while his lawyer fights to have the verdict overturned. >> it simply says that what you're saying, you're doing on your own free will. >> the decision will come down to an error made in the interrogation room. in 2010, the arkansas supreme court unanimously throws out the confession. based on police giving thomas the wrong definition of the word "waiver." his battle with the legal system ends when prosecutors take no further action. the case is dismissed. >> it's very hard for me to wrap my head around the belief of the police that thomas actually committed this murder. and that the only reason he's free is because they made a

mistake in telling him what a waiver is. >> authorities say thomas's juvenile status at the time of the murder prevents them from discussing the case. in a statement to msnbc, prosecutor robin carol did say a prosecutor is the only one in a criminal action who is responsible for the presentation of the truth. through our efforts in this case, we believe we have achieved that goal. >> someone killed my sister, and they just dropped the case. justice has not been done. >> back in camden, thomas moves in with his grandparents. he says he rarely communicates with his mother and hopes to study astrophysics. this is the first time he's ever spoken about his interrogation. >> what the cops did was not right. i believe they were unprofessional. they thought they knew

something. they failed to do their job in investigating it fully. and they just nailed the easiest target. . she had missed a meeting. and then not to hear from her? this isn't right. i had to believe we would find her alive. >> text her, she always got right back. >> i've seen her step out of the shower to