now. >> the hippies protest -- >> i've got to cut you off because we're up against the end of the hour. jason paige and michael robinson, thank you for joinings us. i'm steve kornacki. i'll be back here at 7:00 for "hardball." first "mtp daily" starts right now. if it's monday, donald trump has some more explaining to do on his border plan. tonight, mixed messages. why donald trump's upcoming immigration speech can't come soon enough for his campaign. plus, how a clinton aide's marital split is turning into a costic political plot line. >> i don't like huma going home at night and telling anthony weiner all of these secrets, okay? >> and the debate club. >> he's an unconventional candidate. >> a look at the trials and traps of prepping for the first big clinton/trump face-off. this is "mtp daily," and it starts right now.

hello. happy monday. welcome to "mtp daily." i'm kristen welker in washington in for chuck todd. we're in the final stretch of the summer now with 71 days until the election. both campaigns are spending the day off the trail. both donald trump and hillary clinton are fund-raising today. and both candidates are starting to prepare for the upcoming debates. we'll have a lot more on that in a moment. first, more details on trump's immigration policy speech. it will be on wednesday at 9:00 p.m. eastern. this after donald trump spent part of the weekend in iowa. the trip came after a week of seeming reversals and rhetorical somersaults from trump on immigration. and he spent most of his saturday speech trying to clarify his policy. take a listen. >> on day one, i'm going to begin swiftly removing criminal, illegal immigrants from this

country. >> we're going to build a great wall on the border, and we're going to institute nationwide e-verify. >> on the sunday shows, trump supporters attempted to articulate his stance and tamp down criticism that he flip-flopped. >> his position and his principles have been absolutely consistent. we're going to secure the border. we're going to build a wall. have a physical barrier. enforce the laws of this country. end sanctuary cities. implement e-verify. >> the signature piece of his legislation haslways been build the wall. that has not changed. no amnesty. no citizenship. >> this is a guy who has been very consistent on no amnesty, no legalization for folks coming into the country illegally. that's always been the underpinning of his policy along with the building of the wall on the united states/mexican border. >> you'll not have a pathway to citizenship with donald trump. that's off the table. >> but that language doesn't entirely match what trump said last week or what he said for

the last 14 months of his campaign. hallie jackson is covering the trump campaign outside trump tower. i know you've been working your sources throughout the day. just how specific are you expecting donald trump to get on wednesday in that big speech? >> pretty specific. at least that's the guidance we're getting from sources inside and close to the campaign that donald trump will get into details. we are told, about what his immigration policy is and what he expects, if he were to become president. he will also, though, deliver what i'm told is a compare and contrast kind of speech. expect him to go after hillary clinton hard. expect him to -- expect to hear him talk about what adviser described as the unprecedented policies clinton would put in place for, quote, amnesty. but donald trump will also explain apparently some of his own policies on things like entry/exit visas, things he's talk bodies before and a plan for what he'd do to crack down on sanctuary cities.

the big question remains, what would he do with the 11 million or so undocumented immigrants living here. that's been where that question or where that lack of clarity has been bubbling up over these last two weeks. i am told when it comes to these deportation forces, what you've heard donald trump talk about for 14 months, one of his top advisers seemed to back away from in the last 24 hours, that when donald trump, a senior adviser tells me, is talking about deportation forces, he's talking about i.c.e., the immigration and customs enforcement agency that already exists. now that, to be clear, is a link that trump himself has not made. in this instance, it seems it's another case of trump's team attempting to clarify positions the candidate himself has not. at least not yet. what i know about this event on wednesday, that's event in phoenix. it's happening at a convention center and it's being billed as a unity rally in addition to an

immigration speech but there may not be much of a display of unity. arizona senator john mccain is in that tough re-election fight. he hasn't committed to attending there yet. >> very interesting. we'll see how much unity there is around whatever he winds up announcing on wednesday. hallie jackson, thanks for your reporting, as always. i'm joined by boris epstein, senior adviser to the trump campaign. thanks for joining me. really appreciate it. >> good afternoon. >> good afternoon. i want to start with breaking news that we're getting. i want to get your response to something just tweeted out by pastor mark burns. you know who he is. an african-american adviser and surrogate for the trump campaign. and i want to warn our viewers that some people may find this image that we're about to put up offensive. we are going to put up the image, though. we're going to explain what you're looking at. this is hillary clinton essentially in black face and the words pastor burns tweeted along with this picture are black americans, thank you for your votes and letting me use you again.

see you again in four years. boris, what's your reaction to that. is that appropriate? >> the image likely is not appropriate but the message is that pastor burns and a lot of other african-americans around this country are sick and tired of being talked to and pandered by hillary clinton and the democrats. and that frustration is unfortunately expressing itself in that way. it's all about the issues here, and the issues that hillary clinton and her over 30 years in public life has done nothing for african-americans except for call them superpredators and help her husband get the terrible crime bill passed. >> she'd argue that comment was taken out of context. you don't think this is appropriate. so does pastor burns owe hillary clinton, voters an apology? what should be done? does trump? >> i don't speak for pastor burns. pastor burns is his own man. he speaks for himself. you'd have to ask pastor burns. it's his personal twitter account. has no relationship with the trump campaign. what kaine did is calling all

trump supporters of kkk values. that is inappropriate and the clinton campaign should apologize for what its vp candidate who has been missing from the trail otherwise, said. >> there's no doubt the rhetoric is getting heated on both sides. are you concerned, boris, this type of a tweet could only send african-americans going in the other direction, right at the very time trump is trying to court them. >> it's not about tweets. it's about the message, issues. it's about the fact that 26% of african-americans live in poverty. chicago is more dangerous than kabul right now. it's a war zone. 450 people have died in chicago just this year. only -- and sadly, of course, but just about 200 coalition forces have died in afghanistan since 2013. compare those two numbers. it is crazy to think about. the democrats have ensured that our inner cities are more dangerous than afghanistan. >> i agree with you. it is not about tweets.

what i am hearing from a lot of folks within the african-american community is they'd like to hear donald trump's plans to deal with some of the crime that you're talking about. he is heading to detroit for the first time, really, going to speak to an african-american community. the question is, why did he wait so late, and doesn't that undercut his message that he is serious about dealing with this issue? >> not at all. before there were specific plans to go, the media wasn't as high horse about why donald trump hasn't gone. now donald trump is going and the media is not happy with the timing. it's not about the timing or the treat -- >> it is about the timing. there's only 71 days left in this race. 71 days left in this race and the message that it sents to some people, some people would say, is that this is afterthought. >> we've been talking about african-american outreach for a long time. donald trump and his campaign are absolutely focused on making sure all americans in this country have opportunity, have

hope. the democrats have left communities behind in this country. the african-american, hispanic american, the democrats have made sure those communities do not have hope or jobs. donald trump will be the one to fix that's. >> donald trump last week repeatedly call hillary clinton a bigot. he raised some eyebrous with that. does he really understand what the term bigot means? do you stand by that rhetoric? do you agree that she is, in fact, a bigot, or does that cross the line? >> this goes back to the history of the clintons and -- >> do you agree with that term? does it help or hurt? >> -- peppered with racist remarks like saying barack obama should have been carrying her bags and getting coffee in 2008. a very racial campaign by the clintons against barack obama. look at the history of the clintons and determine whether you agree with that remark. >> i have fact check you. she wasn't referring to african-americans. she was -- she would argue -- to drug cartels.

so just -- >> that's not what she said. she said these people are called superpredators. she was referring to african-americans in the ramp up to the crime bill to ensure thousands of african-americans are in the prison system. >> is donald trump going to lay out a specific plan to deal with some of the issues he's been talking about, particularly crime and violence? >> we've been laying out these issues throughout the campaign. one of the key points in the inner cities is the economy. folks in the inner cities do not have jobs. the poverty numbers. donald trump with a specific tax plan. 15% corporate tax bracket. he's going to make sure there's reinvestment in the inner cities. that businesses go back into the inner cities. n he's the only one that can do that. the democrats have already shown they're unable. rahm emmanuel, the democrat mayor of chicago is a perfect example. look what's happened to that city. absolutely destroyed and devastated. >> but boris, i think what you hear from some folks in the african-american community, when

donald trump talks about walking outside and getting shot and paints inner cities with broad brushstokes, it's like he's stereotyping and that makes i that much more difficult to speak to them. what's do you say to that? >> he's calling out real issues and being realistic. talk about the poverty and unemployment among african-americans is double that. it's the same issue as calling out radical islamic jihadist. if you don't call an issue by its name, you'll never be able to fix it. the democrats have repeatedly failed to do it. >> i have to ask you one question about his big immigration speech on wednesday. hallie jackson was just reporting he's going to lay out specifics and talk about what he meant by that deportation force and what that essentially signifies is the programs that are already in place to deport criminals. what is your understanding? is he abandoning this idea of deporting all 11 million people

who are here? >> first he'll take all illegal immigrants that have commitmented crimes in this country. they'll get deported. he'll get rid of sanctuary cities. with about 8 million illegal immigrants left, we'll determine what is best to move forward with them in terms of the laws on the book, now enforcing the laws on the book, the constitution and the manner that's humane. he'd been specific to that. >> boris, thanks for answering all my questions this afternoon. we appreciate it. we're four weeks from the first headto head debate. we'll have the latest on how the campaigns are preparing a il talk with two men who have firsthand knowledge of the process. plus, the latest on the huma abedin split from former congressman anthony weiner. stay tuned. we're back after a quick break. americans are buying more and more of everything online.

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hillary clinton's longtime aide huma abedin announced today she's separating from her husband. it follows a report in "the new york post" that weiner allegedly sent more sexually suggestive images over the internet. abedin said after long and painful consideration and to work on my marriage, i've made the decision to separate from my husband. anthony and i remain devoted to doing what is best for our son who is the lift our life. during this difficult time, i ask for respect for our privacy. weiner resigned from congress in 2011 after admitting he sent lewd messages and photos to women online. "the new york post" reports the pictures weiner sent in this incident seem to include an inappropriate photo of him lying next to a child who the post says is his son. according to the post, weiner said she's asked me not to comment expect that our conversations were private, often included pictures of her nieces and nephews and my son

and were always appropriate. donald trump's campaign tried to link this to hillary clinton's campaign saying in a statement in part, huma is making a very wise decision. i know anthony weiner well, and she will be far better off without him. i only worry for the country in that hillary clinton was careless and negligent in allowing weiner to have such close proximity to highly classified information. hillary clinton supporter and former governor jennifer granholm said those allegations are, quote, ridiculous. a month before the first debate, are these the awkward personal accusations the candidates are preparing for? we'll be right back. people get anxious and my offic. so many things can go wrong. it's my worst nightmare. every second that power is out, my city's at risk. siemens digital grid manages and reroutes power, so service can be restored within seconds. priority number one iskeepi.

it takes ingenuity to defeat the monsters that live in the dark. four weeks from tonight, donald trump and hillary clinton will square off in the first presidential debate. preparations already under way and the candidates are going by two very different playbooks. sources telling nbc news that this weekend, trump held a debate prep meeting at his new jersey residence. roger ailes and laura ingraham

were among the family and friends gathered this weekend. trump is doing debate prep his own way. no formal rehearsal and no debate coach. >> look, he's an unconventional candidate. he's not going to prepare the way hillary does, which is lock in a room and cram her head with all these binders. i think they are nervous at the clinton camp because he is the unpredictable x-factor. she's a scripted statist hillary clinton that basically needs to memorize lines. >> playing the expectations game. she's called trump a formidable adversary. she's been trying to be ready for the unpredictable. here now, two men who know all about debate prep, george mitchell, who served as the stand-in as bob dole for bill clinton's 1996 debate prep and former new hampshire senator judd greg who played al gore for george w. bush in 2000 and john kerry in 2004.

the senators join me now. i'm really looking forward to this segment. >> thanks for having us. >> thank you. >> senator mitchell, i want to talk to you. president clinton said you were a major asset in prep because you knew bob dole so well. take us behind the scenes. what was that process like, and who do you think would be a good equivalent for secretary clinton today? >> well, i'm not sure on the last point, but in terms of preparation, it's really not rocket science. quite a bit of research was done to identify statements made by senator dole to identify the issues that were likely to arise. the purpose really is to achieve three discreet but overlapping things. first, one of the issues that are likely to come up so the candidate can be fully briefed, fully informed on the iues and address any aspec or question of them. secondly, what you anticipate your opponent will try to use against you. what will the attack be?

and to dry to respond to prepare responses to all of those. and third and finally, of course, to do the same thing in reverse. what areas is your opponent vulnerable on, and what should your candidate do to prepare and deal with that aspect of the debate? so it can be done. i think in every case, campaigns do it in a way that enables a candidate to be the most effective. >> just to be clear, i was curious who you think would make for a good donald trump. and part of that, senator mitchell, would be being able to be a little unpreductable. a little footloose and fancy free if you will in that format. >> it is true he's unpreduictabe but it's not hard to anticipate those areas in which he'll concentrate his criticism. go back over the past several months and it's not difficult to identify the issues. that's what he did in the

preparation for the campaign for the debate between president clinton and senator dole. and, in fact, every single word spoken by senator dole during that debate, president clinton had heard from me in the preparation. and i think the same was true in reverse. and i think it's likely to be true again this time around. >> what a fascinating point. senator greg, that brings me to you. the trump campaign is not confirming whether or not he's actually doing mock debates. we know he's not having a traditional debate prep. how importent is to run the traps, to have a mock debate, to hear the arguments and to prepare your counterargument? >> well, i'm not donald trump so i can't speak for donald trump, but for certainly george w. bush, it was very important and for jack kemp who i also did it for. it was extremely importent. they took it very seriously. first off, i have an immense amount of respect for senator mitchell. a tremendous senator. a tremendous force for good in

the world since he left the senate. i would add one other item to his list of three. i think it's important for the person who recognize, who is running for president that your goal is to connect with your audience, the american people, and give them confidence that you're someone they'll have confidence in as president. that's going to be the number one test that trump will have to confront in this debate format. right now that's very much in flux. >> and this is going to be very different from the primary debates. he's going to have to know these issues in more detail. and we've seen a lot of mud slinging. you don't think so? do you disagree? >> i don't think it's donald trump's style to know the issues in depth. and certainly he's going up against hillary clinton who has been in washington over 30 years. knows every issue inside and out. i don't think he'll approach it that way. i wouldn't anyway. i'd move immediately to the issues i wanted to create as the points of the debate. and in this instance, it's defining hillary clinton in one way, obviously, he's been doing

it very publicly. and then moving on to what his message is. and not get tied down in the minutia of how medicare works, how social security works, how tax reform goes because he's not going to win on that level because he's never going to be able to compete with hillary who clearly has those issues down bat, has been working on them for years. >> pick up right there. how does secretary clinton prepare for that inevitable mud slinging that's going to be coming her way and if donald trump does decide to sort of stick to the talking points, the zingers that's we were just talking about? >> first, of course, both of these candidates have been through many debates. debate itself is not new. secretary clinton has been through them many times in her past year. mr. trump went through them many times in the nominating process. so they'll be prepared. they've been through it. i do think that there will be a lot of charges made. i think it's important for both candidates in their interest as

he said to connect to their audience. not losing their cool. and it's a fine line between what is an attack and what is a response to someone else's attack. some candidates do it well. some don't. i think you're going to see a lot of that. my advice to secretary clinton is simply to be herself to respond directly and forcefully to the questions and to respond to the kricriticism. but try not to make it come across as a personal insult or attack to the other candidate. i don't think that sits well with most people and judd is quite right when he says the real objective is to come across as someone who can manage the awesome duties of the office of the presidency. >> one of the potential -- go ahead. >> it's interesting to follow the debate, historical debates. it's been actual physical body language and things that people have done outside of the actual exchange of issues that have

connected with people and caused them to either like the candidate or not like the candidate. there's a famous situation where gore walked up to then governor bush and basically governor bush looked at it dismissively and moved on. that was a turning point. governor bush's father -- president bush's father looked at his watch. that was a turning point. and so physical action, you know, how you relate to the audience with your persona in a physical way is almost as important is how you relate to the audience with what you're saying. >> such an important point. ed in -- and you lead me to my next question. let's look at this really de devastating moment with rick lazio. >> i would be happy to when you give me the signed letters -- >> i want your signature. everybody wants to see you signing something that you says you were for. i'm for it.

i haven't done it. you've been violating it. why don't you stand up and do something important for america while america is looking at new york. why don't you show some leadership. it goes to trust and character. >> senator mitchell, the lesson there. >> well, i think it's important to be strong and assertive but not overley aggressive. where the line is is up to each individual. and sometimes -- i think the most important lesson really is that the camera is on the candidate at all times. even when the other candidate is speaking, there's a tendanency the part of people to think when they're not talking, they're not being seen by the audience. in these debates, the camera, particularly with justice t two them, or three, whatever is going to be there. a camera is on them at all the times. they need to be careful and not appear to be condescending or demeaning to the other side. >> i agree. >> how do you walk that fine line?

>> i totally agree. in the first debate, gore debate, bush/gore debate, there would be no split screens, and then there were split screens. that had a big impact because vice president gore was doing sighs and making all sorts of facial expressions which didn't connect. so it does come down to this simple effort. your goal is to connect with the folks watching that debate and make them feel comfortable with you as president and make them feel if they vote for you, they'll be able to lead this nation in a positive way. >> all right, great conversation. thank you so much, senators mitchell and gregg. really appreciate it. and the panel is here with me now. maria teresa kumar, israel ortega and politico's anna palmer. thanks for being here. let me start with you, anna. your take aways from that conversation and they both talked about the importance of

walking a fine line. for hillary clinton, so much experience, she runs the risk of coming off as being overly studied. donald trump has the opposite challenge. >> i've also talk to a lot of people who helped president obama prepare. the thing with hillary clinton, it is a slugfest it will not be good. she needs to take the hard road. she had a hard time with that with senator sanders. she needs to look at tone and body language and try to take the high road. donald trump has said he's going to try to make it as nasty as possible. >> israel, we were learning that donald trump is not preparing in the traditional way. we don't know if he'll do a mock debate. he probably will before he has to face off with her. so far our indications are he hasn't yet. what are you expecting, and to anna's point, how does secretary clinton avoid that slugfest? >> the pressure is on donald trump. he's down in the polls. he'll have few opportunities to really shake up the race. and this debate, particularly

the first debate, will be an opportunity for him to come across as not just presidential but the question about the temperament. that's a big problem for him. he's got to perform well in the first debate. >> how does secretary clinton turn the page if and when the mud does start slinging in her direction? obviously, she's bracing for that. >> in traditional debates, the moderator asks the question. the candidate answers to send off so they can pivot on their issue. this is not going to be that traditional type of debate. what hillary needs to do is she needs to -- if she can voice all the stuff that she knows that's donald trump basically says is on the table, and that's not just her issues but everything with her husband bill clinton and so on and so forth. if she can put voice to that, then it freeze her up to talk about the issues donald trump has to talk about. at the end of the day, everybody knows she knows policy inside and out. but donald trump sums up his

imigration with three words, build the wall. no one knows her immigration stance, as an example. >> great. stay with us. a lot more to talk about, guys. really appreciate it. a preview of tomorrow's big primaries coming up. it's a race for the ages in arizona. questions over john mccain's age, will it impact him at the polls? and debbie wasserman schultz faces a challenge from a sanders-backed opoents. we'll have the latest from the sunshine estate ahead. ♪ mapping the oceans. where we explore.

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still ahead on "mtp daily," we'll review tomorrow's big primary fights. first, hampton pearson with the cnbc market wrap. the dow climbing by 107. the s&p up by 11. the nasdaq adding 13 points. one of the factors behind today's gains was an increase in consumer spending which rose for a fourth straight month in july. and apple has announced it's holding an event next week in san francisco. the company provided no other details simply saying see you on the 7th. though it's widely expected to unveil new products, including its next iphone. that's it from cnbc, first in business worldwide.

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some big news are on the ballot tomorrow in one of the last big primary days of the year. in arizona, senator john mccain is in what he's called the race of his life against former state

senator kelli ward. today is mccain's 80th birthday, something ward brought up with chuck on this show last week. >> he's going to be 80 on monday. i want to give him the best birthday ever, the gift of the retirement. i'm a physician. i see's physiological changes that happen in normal aging in patients again and again over the last 20, 25 years. i know what happens to the body n mind. >> so you feel comfortable diagnosing him on air like this? >> diagnosing him as an 80-year-old man? yes, i do. >> mccain responded to nbc's kelly o'donnell just this afternoon. >> when your primary opponent talks about your age -- happy birthday, by the way -- how do you respond to that? is that a below the belt hit? >> i let the people of arizona who know me very well make that judgment. turning to the sunshine state, the primary for marco rubio's election bid is also tomorrow. he's favored to win big over carlos baruf.

and congressman patrick murphy and alec grayson are duking it out to take on rubio in the general. both have had their share of problems but murphy is expected to come out on top. also debbie wasserman schultz is facing a bernie sanders-backed candidate. joining me to dig deeper into these races and more, my nbc colleague kelly o'donnell who is in arizona following the mccain rairx and mark caputo in florida. thanks for joining me. >> thank you. >> kelly, let me start with you and your conversation with senator john mccain. obviously, he's up in the polls, but he's dealing with that very personal attack. what were your takeaways from your conversation with him? >> well, john mccain looks at this race and says to himself and to the voters that he's trying to prove his record and his long history with the people of arizona. again and again saying to me the

people here know me. they know what i stand for and what i've done and to try to fend off those challenges. for mccain, this is a challenge from the hard right. that is not new territory for him. his primary challenges have usually been of those most critical from the far right. and so in this case, he is relying on a very difficult sort of maneuver. he's got to try to keep conservative voters interested in supporting him tomorrow. there's already been early voting going on. and at the same time, knowing that trump is at the top of the ticket, come november, presuming he clears the primary and kirkpatrick is his november opponent. she's a member of congress right now with hillary clinton at the top of the ticket. and kurkpatrick is trying to tie john mccain to donald trump at every turn. he persists in saying he supports the nominee but i haven't heard him use donald trump's name. he simply refers to him as the nominee and he's trying to run his own race separate from all that other noise that's on the

presidential level of politics. >> that's a really good point. mark, let me get you to weigh in on the race with debbie wasserman schultz. this is a district that clinton won by a lot over senator sanders. but is she in any trouble? she's obviously been dealing with a lot of controversy herself. >> if she's in trouble, the polls are not showing it. i don't see debbie wasserman schultz losing this based only on the polls but who she is. she's been in office 24 years, state house, state senate and congress and only two primary challengers. one 24 years ago and one now. she looks like the district. it's a heavily jewish district. the first woman who is jewish to go to congrs from florida. it's difficult to see her losing, especially when you go to the polls. you have the holy trinity of endorsements. president obama, joe biden and hillary clinton all back debbie wasserman schultz.

if she loses this, it will be quite a shocker. let me ask you about the marco rubio race. you heard kelly talking about the impact on mccain's fight. how is that going to impact marco rubio and his race to be re-elected? >> currently it's not but rubio is you walking a fine line. polling better than donald trump. donald trump is generally losing in the florida polling to hillary clinton and marco rubio is generally winning to patrick murphy who looks like the odds on favorite to win the primary tomorrow. but as the campaign goes on, as we go in the general election mode if trump's numbers remain bad you'll see the democrat daze really good job and effort to hang donald trump around marco rubio's neck like a giant albatross. >> going back to you, i want to ask you about the broader picture here. democrats are feeling pretty confident about their chances to take back the senate. they think they'll pick up some house seats as well. what are you hearing, and how much concern is there inside republican circles that the house could be in danger if not

a falling to democrats of losing a lot of seats. >> republicans tell me they have concerned about losing their margin in the house. but it is the senate where they will pretty much openly say that it is a jump ball about which party would have control after november. for democrats, three seats they think are pretty easy for them to turn. that's illinois, wisconsin, indiana. and at the same time, there are some very close nail-biter races. democrats are looking to arizona here for a pick-up, but that is far from a sure thing. mccain is polling ahead. the biggest prize may be new hampshire where two formidable women, kelly ayotte and the current democratic governor maggie hassen are in a really tight race, and it's a state where voters know a lot about politics. it may come down to a place like new hampshire. >> kelly o'donnell and mark caputo, thank you. we'll have much more "mtp daily" right after this. sk?

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again. see you again in four years. pastor burns joins me now by phone. thank you for agreeing to speak with us this evening. >> glad to be here. thanks for having me. >> so i have to start with the fact i spokie inwith one of don trump's other surrogates, boris epshteyn who said this is inappropriate. was this an appropriate tweet? >> you know, first of all, i just want to say, really, the tweet is a frustration that i have as a black man here in america and how i see african-americans in many cases -- not every case -- but in many cases, are suffering throughout this country and to see how en masse weave been voting for the democratic party en masse and yet we have very little to show for it. i think it's to see how the democratic party, especially hillary clinton, what's i call

tap dance for the black vote, get it and then disappear for four more years. >> pastor burns, but let me just jump in because the image of blackface is pretty widely considered to be offensive to african-americans, no matter who is applies to. >> i'm so glad you said that. i'm so glad you said now offensive the black face is to black people because that is a satire drawing, but -- and not a -- it's a satire cartoon drawing. what is a reality is the blackface actual reality picture that bill clinton took when he was younger and we're not even talking about it. i think that's offensive. when you look at the real heart of the -- >> we're not going to relitigate the past here, pastor burns. i want to talk about this tweet you tweeted out moments ago. why did you tweet this out? do you stand by it? >> i think i'm pretty clear

what's important is the fact that blackface is offensive to black people, but what's more offensive is not so much that there's just blackface but that millions of african-americans are on welfare. millions -- thousands of african-americans are on food stamps and we as a people, the net worth of a black family is $5,000 the net worth of a white family, around $93,000 net worth of an asian american family is about $113,000. we are not at the promised land that dr. king spoke about. this is not the promised land that he spoke about. this is a vexation and frustration where many of us are making decisions and we are voting democrat because that's what mama did, that's what granddaddy did and we're not looking at some of the policies that are hurting us as a people. we got to break the welfare system and secondly -- >> pastor burns, okay. >> let me say this. this is so important. this is so important.

really hear what i'm saying. the problem is, we live in a political pc. environment that we even got to have a special section for where we even go after the african-american vote like all of us african-americans are the same. >> pastor burns, let me just jump in for a second. because you are tweeting this out, you are tweeting this out at the very moment donald trump is trying to make this new outreach to african-american voters, talking about how important it is that people listen to what you say but frankly, when you tweet something like this out it's impossible for people to hear what you say because this type of image becomes the topic of conversation. didn't you just -- >> because -- >> -- do the opposite of what donald trump says he is trying to do? >> the picture is designed to draw attention to the very fact that hillary clinton do pander after black votes, black people. she do pander. the policies are not good for african-americans. it is doing exactly what it's

designed to do. we are not playing the political p.c. game to make you feel good. >> but is that the right way to get your message across? is that the right way to get your message across? 'if you want to reach out to african-americans, why not have donald trump go and speak to them? he's going to make his first appearance in detroit on saturday. why not have him every week going into african-american communities talking to them, talking about his plans, how he's going to create more jobs? is this the best way to achieve all the goals that you just laid out? >> see, the thing is this. this is why we live in a p.c. environment to where you think one person speaks for all. i'm a completely separate individual. i am not donald trump. i am mark burns from the great state of south carolina. >> but you are his surrogate. pastor burns, you are one of his surrogates. you are one of his surrogates. when you tweet something like that out, it is representative of donald trump as well. >> listen, donald trump is not a black man, nor is hillary

clinton a black woman. i am a black man. i am speaking from the perspective of a black man who lives in a society where we are at the bottom of the totem pole and yet we are still voting en masse for the same policies that are keeping us there. and to use hillary clinton and the democratic party to pander after the black vote and we are not looking at the policies. you want to give me minimum wage and i'm supposed to celebrate over that? this is the kind of america we live in. yes, i am vexed. yes, i am standing behind that picture. we as african-americans, we need to make democrats fight for our vote. we need to make them fight for us. we need to make them do what they say they are going to do because we are just as valuable as every race in the great states of the united states of america. >> pastor burns, do you think that a tweet like this helps

donald trump to win over more african-american voters or do you think it drives them in the other direction because they might be offended as one of his top surrogates said, this is an inappropriate tweet, it's an inappropriate way of trying to win over african-american voters. >> if you want to talk to me about how i represent donald trump, then we should talk about wh bill clinton, who is the husband -- >> we are not talking about bill clinton. we are not talking about bill clinton. we are talking about your tweet. >> -- dressed up in his bojangle hillbilly outfit while he's hugging on a black face which is extremely offensive. that is the reality. we want to talk about what donald trump -- >> pastor burns, pastor burns, you are referring to an incident that goes i believe all the way back to when bill clinton was in college. we are not going to relitigate the past. we are talking about the tweet you just sent out. let me ask you this question. let me ask you this. >> that's when we do in the media, we bring up the past.

>> let me ask you, pastor burns, wr we are almost out of time. let me jump in. you are accusing hillary clinton of pandering to african-american voters, yet donald trump has yet to lay out and enumerate his plans to create jobs, to deal with the crime issues that he's talking about. so how can african-american voters feel as though he is validly trying to address some of their top concerns when he hasn't spoken directly to them and to their communities? >> very good answer. tell me, where are your ancestors from? >> i have a lot of ancestors. we are almost out of time. i have a lot of ancestors. pastor burns, let's stay on the topic. >> when you talk to one black family you are not talking to all black families. we need to quit talking as though when you talk to the african-american community like that resonates to all of them. >> he's not talking to them at

all, pastor burns. that's my point. >> that's not true. he's talking to americans. we as african-americans are americans. we are americans. we are americans. we deserve to have the same respect as all americans. when donald trump talks about jobs, he don't talk to white america. he talks to america. that's the problem we have in this society. that we are pandering after these different races and we are pandering after these groups like we don't matter. yes, we do matter. and we are equal. i pledge allegiance to the flag of the united states of america and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under god indivisible with liberty and justice for everybody. >> all right. on that note, i will let that be the last word. thank you, pastor burns, for calling in. appreciate it. we'll be right back. and so many businesses rely on the united states postal service to get it there. that's why we make more ecommerce deliveries to homes

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that is all for tonight. "with all due respect" starts right now. i'm mike barnicle. >> i'm john heilemann. "with all due respect" to george stephanopoulos, wtf. >> you only live once. that's a nice day when i want to buy something. >> good to know.