good evening. i'm steve kornacki in for chris matthews. tonight it is a primary tuesday, the marquee race out in arizona. that's where senator john mccain is facing a challenger from the right who sounds an awful lot like donald trump. we look at where that race stands later in the show. also tonight, the latest twists in the saga of maine governor paul lepage. he told a local radio station today that he might not finish out his term but later tweeted a very different message. and donald trump's big immigration speech now just a day away. we will begin with the ongoing fallout today from that very controversial tweet from trump surrogate pastor mark burns. a warning here, the image might be offensive to some. his tweet showed hillary clinton

in blackface and accused her of pandering to the black community. yesterday on msnbc, pastor burns defended the tweet. >> i apologize for the offensive blackface image of that cartoon and the depiction of the blackface is offensive by itself, and as an african-american man in america, i don't stand by anyone portraying themselves in a blackface, but the message that i intended, i still stand behind. but my apology is because i think my message got lost in the translation. >> let's clarify. that was not pastor mark burns on msnbc yesterday. that was him today apologizing for that tweet. pastor mark burns now joins us. thank you for taking a few minutes. let me start on the question of the apology. we played it there, little transcript on the screen. i want to be clear on this and i

want you to be clear on this with our viewers. what exactly are you apologizing for here? is it just the image or is it anything else? >> you know, i'm only apologizing for the blackface that was portrayed on the image, but i am not without a shadow of a doubt apologizing for the message that i was trying to get out to the public. i do not apologize for the message that it stood behind. hillary clinton and the democratic party have and do pander, do pander after black people in this country. again, i apologize if it offended people. the last thing i want to do is create an offense. and for those that was deeply offended personally, for that i am sorry. but i do not apologize for the message. the message is clear. i stand by it. 100%. >> the message, that's an interesting point on the message. you are accusing her of

pandering, accusing her of taking black voters for granted. a lot of people would say that's a legitimate question to raise and legitimate point of debate but the message went beyond that when you bring blackface into it, when you bring something that inflammatory into it and you couple it with your support of a presidential candidate who has called hillary clinton a bigot. that's sending a message that says something a lot deeper and a lot uglier about hillary clinton. do you apologize for casting aspersions on hillary clinton that way? >> i'm a black man in america. i know what the blackface means. i know what it stands for. i don't stand behind -- i don't stand behind the imagery of the blackface. but once again, the very fact is the black vote, the voting bloc of the african-american community, the democratic party and hillary clinton knows that that vote already largely belongs to her. what is more offensive, while we're sitting here debating over a cartoon, what's more offensive

is the very fact that hillary clinton doesn't own up to the failed policies that has impacted many in the african-american community. let's be really honest here. i will be honest and say this here on msnbc. the very fact that we are talking about the african-american community as though we are one group of people and we are all the same, i think that is very offensive. that's politically correct, p.c. at the highest caliber. that's what donald trump stands for. we have to eliminate the language that creates this type of language that says hey, black people are the same everywhere. that's not the case. we bleed red like everybody else. i'm not -- let me say this one more step further. let me say this. there is no such thing as the real african-american community. it doesn't really exist. that's a myth because black people are just americans.

a black person in oregon does not have the same issues that a black person who might live in the urban cities of baltimore. we put donald trump and other politicians in the same boat. they are darned if they do and darned if they don't. we say donald trump, how come you don't -- >> let me put it this way. >> one more point and i'll be done. >> let me follow up with this on the issue of this presidential race, on the issue of choice you are talking about here between hillary clinton and donald trump, the black community, black voters do seem to be speaking with one voice. i can show you this. this is our most recent poll. black voters in this country asked to choose between hillary clinton and donald trump, i have to tell you, i have never seen a number like this. 1% for donald trump. 91% for hillary clinton. when you look at a number like that, do you think donald trump, do you think donald trump has done anything to deserve just 1% support from black voters right

now? >> i think the very fact we are forcing our politicians to come up with policies for a particular group like the african-american group, like it impacts all of us, okay. see, donald trump is darned if you do and he's darned if you don't. we will say donald trump, what is your policy to the african-american community and donald trump begins to talk to african-americans and he says in some areas you can walk down the street and you can get shot and you can die. then once he says a very true fact because it just happened, just happened a couple days ago, very sad story in chicago, and when he says that, you know, the community rises up and said oh, my god, how could donald trump talk to all black people like we are all fearful of getting shot. so then he's either darned for not talking about the african-american community and

then he's darned for talking about the african-american community because we say not all of us are like that. why is he talking to all black people like we are all one, like all of us are fearful of our lives. the fact of the matter is this. i'm going to say a very real reality. most people may not want to talk about it. i'm sure people will want to argue it. but there's no such thing as the african-american community. we are only americans. we are only americans. it is only until we stop forcing our politicians to pander after particular groups and just start talking to us as we, the people of the united states. that's when we begin to eliminate the divisions within our communities and the democratic party are doing a wonderful job in keeping us divided and the more they divide us, the more they can control us and the more they control us, the more they keep a welfare state to millions of blacks in this country to where welfare never creates prosperity. it only creates dependency. >> let me --

>> i will never give you enough that you will thrive. >> your indictment of the deckic party again is you are saying the democratic party takes black voters for granted in this country. abuse them transactionally, as votes for an election and that's it. let me show you this. i'm sure you have seen it. donald trump upon learning the news that the cousin of dwyane wade, the nba player, had been killed in chicago over the weekend, donald trump tweeted this. dwyane wade's cousin was just shot and killed walking her baby in chicago. just what i have been saying. african-americans will vote trump. does that not send a clear message from donald trump to black voters that he views them transactionally, mainly as votes, that his reaction to learning about a murder, to learning about the death of a black person in chicago, is to say more votes for me? >> listen, i will say this. listen, if i am telling you

don't go down that street because if you go down that street you will fall in a ditch. don't go down the street because if you go down the street you will fall in a ditch. don't go down the street because if you go down the street you might fall in the ditch. and you go down the street and you then fall in the ditch, the first thing i'm going to say to you is i told you so. i'm telling you right now. don't go down the street. now you are in the ditch. that's all donald trump was saying. it is a sad tragic event that took place. now four children are without a mother. four babies are without a mother. donald trump has been declaring, it is not nothing brand new. the very fact we wait for dwyane wade's cousin to die and her name was miss aldridge, by the way, she was a real person and now there are four children -- >> did donald trump send that message with a tweet that immediately says more votes for me? he didn't seem to be treating her as a real person.

>> no. no. what donald trump is simply saying is i am telling you it is a very fact. you all want to say oh, my god, donald trump said you could walk down the street and get shot. oh, how, he's racist for saying that. then a couple days later, a woman who was doing nothing, walks down the street and gets shot and the sad part about, this is the real tragic event, the very sad part about it is, it is only because it was dwyane wade's cousin that we are even talking about it. when before her, six, seven people were killed. the very fact we are talking about the deaths that have been taking place in the south side of chicago is not nothing brand new. the fact that this is what i mean by pandering after the races because we should have been discussing that if it wasn't just a black issue but we make it an american issue, all eyes will be marching down there. it wouldn't be that black lives matter would be leading the fight but all lives would be

leading the fight because what happens to you as an american happens to me. we have the greatest strongest military in the whole world and one of the creeds of our great strong military is that we leave no man behind. men have died in trying to rescue just one man. just one man. the very fact is, if we -- that's why we together pledged allegiance to the flag of united states states of america. and to the republic for which it stands. hear me. one nation under god, indivisivable with liberty and justice for everyone. >> pastor mark burns, appreciate the time. thank you. joined now by michael steele, former chair of the republican national committee and msnbc political analyst. well, michael, donald trump,

there's been some debate about what the motive here is in the trump campaign in terms of this outreach to black voters. are they actually going after black voters, are they going after these college educated white suburbanites they have been losing, is this a way to look more inclusive, more open to them? big picture, what is your assessment of this move from the trump campaign and what you're hearing from mark burns? >> i think it's a little bit more of the latter. i think it is recognition that white female suburban voters are going to be the linchpin in this election. right now they are not feeling as much about donald trump as they did say six, eight months ago. that definitely is at play here. i also think after talking with some folks in and around the campaign that there is a genuine effort afoot, albeit late, to open up this conversation, to begin to peel back a little bit some of the rhetoric that typically attends these types of presidential discussions.

oh, we want the black voters. you just heard the reverend, one side saying you're taking the vote for granted, the other side saying you just ignore them. i think trump is trying to split that hair a little bit as well. i think this is more political calculation. again, there is nothing wrong with that. but i think we just need to understand really what it means. >> in terms of the approach trump is making, we were talking about this a minute ago, he uses, talks in addressing black voters, says you live in war zones, he says, he makes what sound like sweeping generalizations that say hey, if you are black and living in this country, you are surrounded by crime, you are stuck in poverty, you have no opportunity. he doesn't say anything positive, doesn't seem to stress a positive message there. is that a mistake? >> i think it is. i think we need to be careful as well. remember, barack obama himself has laid out and indicted the community on some of his statistics that really are problematic for the black

community as a whole. it's recidivism rates, education, graduation rates, job rates, all of these things, the president himself has talked about. but here's where i think your point is an important one. you can lay out, you can indict and say what is wrong. lord knows we live in the community and we know what's wrong. but we are also looking to you to see what you think some of the solutions should be. so there is an aspirational component here that needs to be addressed as well that failing that, you do come off sounding as if you are haranguing and indicting the community for the sake of indicting the community to score political points with a group of americans largely white who look down on us to begin with. so i think you have got to be very specific and very careful in how you open up this particular conversation. again, a little late to the game. appreciate you wanting to have it but you have got to still

have it the right way. >> michael steele, former rnc chair, msnbc contributor, thanks for the time. >> you got it. still ahead, democrats are within striking distance of control of the u.s. senate. with donald trump at the top of the ticket that could cost the republicans. john mccain is one of them. he's in a primary fight tonight even if he prevails, can mccain and other endangered republicans survive the year of trump? that's ahead. plus, outspoken trump supporter and maine governor paul lepage now says rumors of his political demise are greatly exaggerated. this after he suggested he might step down after targeting a democratic lawmaker with a vulgar voice mail. but the calls for his resignation continue to grow. new information on how the clinton campaign is preparing to debate donald trump. they are working with trump's ghostwriter, the writer who helped trump put together "the art of the deal" 30 years ago, working with him to try to bait trump into embarrassing blunders on national television. finally, the "hardball" roundtable will be here to tell

me things about this election campaign that i don't know.

new poll numbers for you from the key battleground state of pennsylvania. let's go to the "hardball" scoreboard. this from monmouth university, their respected poll. hillary clinton has an eight point lead over donald trump in pennsylvania, 48% for clinton, 40% for trump. gary johnson sitting back at 6%. moving to the senate race, democrat katie mcginty with a four-point lead over incumbent republican pat toomey. 45% for mcginty. 41% for toomey. that's within the margin of error. we'll be right back.

the oil companies pollute our air. putting their... ...profits ahead of our kids' health. now they're trying to weaken california's clean air laws. i'm tom steyer. we've had a million kids get asthma. we need to send the oil companies a message. tell your legislator to stand up to the oil companies and protect our clean air laws. don't let the oil companies put their profits... ...ahead of our kids. welcome back to "hardball." donald trump is set to deliver his big immigration speech tomorrow night. his running mate mike pence is promising trump will lay out his plan in great specificity.

meantime, trump surrogates have been forced to interpret his message as best they can. earlier today, former georgia congressman jack kingston, trump supporter, saying on msnbc his plan will include a deportation force. >> why doesn't the campaign know yet whether a deportation force is part of his immigration policy? is it or is it not? >> it is part of it. we are going to learn more wednesday. >> so there will be a deportation force? >> craig, i can't let the opportunity go, though, to remind you hillary clinton hasn't had a press conference in 270 days. it would be great to know details on any of her plans. >> trump's campaign manager kellyanne conway had a very different take when i asked her about it this afternoon. >> i think you have to go back to mr. trump's speech at the convention in cleveland which was just a month ago and to see there's no deportation force mentioned in there. he speaks for himself and his campaign. he's the face of this campaign. he is running for president. he will deliver the speech tomorrow. you know it's going to be the toughest on illegal immigration than anyone's ever been.

>> trump's own statements don't seem to be helping. last week he said there can be soft softening, his word there, softening in his position to avoid hurting people. at the town hall he even polled the audience to see what they thought he should do. today his son donald trump jr. insisted that his father's position hasn't changed. >> wasn't softening on anything. he didn't change his stance on anything. what he did and what he's done all along is he's speaking with the people. he's not lecturing them like most of the politicians you see. he's actually having a conversation. his policy has been the same for the last six, seven, eight months. >> he still says they all got to go? >> that's been the same. correct. but again, you have to start with baby steps. you have to let i.c.e. do their job. you have to eliminate sanctuary cities. you have to get rid of the criminals certainly first and foremost. you have to secure the border. >> so what will trump say tomorrow and will it matter to his supporters? frank rich is writer at large for "new york" magazine. frank, it's a jam trump is in here. everything that he said to win the republican nomination that appealed to the base of the republican party, it seems like

now there's some recognition this is offending the voters he needs to win in november. >> exactly. clearly, i don't know what the specifics are going to be tomorrow. maybe there will be some big change like canada will pay for the wall, but i think that it's sort of this lame attempt to white suburban voters, we keep hearing that, without losing the people who have been with him from the beginning. i actually don't think he will lose those people. we have already seen ann coulter and rush limbaugh sort of forgive him for waffling on his number one issue but i don't see how he's going to peel off people to be fooled by this nonsense and flip-flopping and indecisiveness. >> and also try to figure out what he could offer. rhetorically he said softening. a couple days later he said i think it was a hardening. he sort of canceled that one out. he acknowledged last week some of the folks here are good people, he said great people. there are a couple rhetorical things. any change here that would allow undocumented people to stay in

the country under a trump presidency i got to think will set off some kind of revolt on the right. >> certainly it's the jeb bush, it's everything, all the people who were running against him were saying. that said, it seems to me we have seen the history of trump's base, not enough to win an election, national election, sticking with him. we have seen his supporters say oh, we know he isn't really going to build a wall and have mexico pay for it. we are with him. we know he will get the job done. my guess is he's betting that like limbaugh and ann coulter, they will just crumble and somehow they will convince someone in a mainline suburb to flip for him. >> that's the bigger picture story of this campaign i think that's been so fascinating because it's been these two pillars that republicans have relied on in national elections for a long time now. you have lower income blue collar whites that trump has done really well with, but they have also married that with suburban support and suburban support right now is evaporating. >> it's evaporating. not just because of this, but

because of the stuff with race. he's doing the stuff about race now and suddenly liking the blacks as he would call them and pandering to them because he's trying to reach white voters. he's not trying to reach black voters. he's not reaching them at all. but i don't think people are idiots. i don't think white people are idiots who will be fooled by this. he's listening obviously to kellyanne conway and looking at polls he claimed to not look at in the past and thinking wait a minute, the republican coalition is what you just said, who would have thunk it. >> what do you make, we are two months out right now, we have a new poll, new nbc online poll puts it at six points right now. there's two ways of looking at six points, i guess. you could say maybe given everything that's happened, it's amazing trump isn't further behind. then again, in context with other recent elections, six points would be a lopsided election. >> yeah. my guess is that's the way it's going but of course, we can't be sure. i just don't see the numbers for him adding up.

hillary clinton's run many ways a weak campaign. it is right she hasn't given press conferences and has been dogged by controversies and so my guess is if her campaign were better, she would be ahead 15 points, not six points but six points is looking good right now. >> so much attention to kellyanne conway becoming the campaign manager to the big shakeup, most recent shakeup a few weeks ago, the idea it would give trump more discipline, more direction, it would really professionalize this campaign. do you see just watching this campaign sort of as a spectator, do you see a difference between the trump product now and a couple weeks ago? >> only this. that he gives speeches now like the one presumably he will give tomorrow where he reads from a teleprompter, it's very long, it's very dull, it's very crafted language, and he will do that and then the next day, he will send a tweet and that will be the end of it. so there are longer speeches and more of them, but trump is still trump.

the guy is not going the change. he's 70 years old or about to be. >> obviously, you know politics is stagecraft as well as anyone. the donald trump we will see tomorrow, giving the prepared speech, reading from the teleprompter, i get a sense it kills him to have to do that. because this is a guy who is always thinking do i have the audience's attention. he feels maybe he's slipping there. >> he is a performer. not my taste but he's a gifted performer of what he does. he might be bridling to go by the script. he wants to be don rickles, insult people, ad lib, so you can feel him chafing. you don't have to be a student of theater. you can watch tv, you can see when someone is reading from a teleprompter, bored out of his mind, doesn't want to do it, isn't speaking the way he really speaks. it comes across as phony. that's not what brought him here and he knows that. which means there's a real tension i'm sure as he tries to follow the script. >> not playing the game he wants

to play in those settings. thanks for the time. coming up, the trump effect on republicans all the way down the ballot as they try to hang on to the u.s. senate. things are looking good for the democrats to take control come november. that's ahead. i'm milissa rehberger.

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cindy and i voted. we are looking for a good turnout on the vote today. we're tired. you can see by these young people that we have been inspired by so many of our young interns, well over 200 of them that have been working incredible hours and getting out the vote. that's why we are very confident about the outcome today. >> welcome back to "hardball."

that was senator john mccain earlier today out in arizona. he's confident he will win the primary there against former state legislator kelli ward. today marks what we are calling primary palooza. voters in several states hitting the polls casting ballots in some major races. the most contentious one might be down in florida. that's where congresswoman debbie wasserman schultz is fighting to hang on to her seat and her political career. the former dnc chair is up against tim canova who is backed by bernie sanders. there's marco rubio and john mccain, both of them trying to avoid the down ballot backlash that could come from their soft support of donald trump this november. just a little more than two months now until decision day 2016. democrats could be, could be on track to take back the senate. let's take a look. let's fire up the trusty big board. senate control is a big issue here. it's not just the presidential race, it's what happens underneath. right now, democrats are 46 votes in the senate. if hillary clinton wins the white house party basically gets to break the tie in the senate.

if hillary clinton wins, the democrats would need to pick up four. if trump were to win the democrats would need to pick up five. let's show you why the democrats look like they are in good position. first of all, it's this. these are all the democratic held seats right now. all of the democratic held seats that democrats are in danger of losing right now. that republicans could win this fall. there's only one right now, nevada. harry reid retiring out there. november, a swing state, a state where donald trump has been doing better than some people expected. he's very close in the polls there. republicans could take that senate seat out there in nevada but look at the rest of this map. you don't see many targets for republicans right there. republicans are playing defense. they are playing defense in a big way. how big? look at this. these are the republican-held seats that are in play or potentially in play. not all of these are created equally. some of these targets here are stretches for democrats. but all of them have the possibility to be competitive. these are seats that republicans hold right now that democrats believe they have a shot of

winning. we can take you through a couple of them to give you a sense of it. look at illinois. illinois democrats think they have a good shot. wisconsin. how about new hampshire? you have the democratic governor there. polls have been putting her ahead high single digits, double digits. she's looking potentially good up there in new hampshire. there is very ripe targets here for democrats. they have gotten some bad news as well. they are trying to make a run at republican rob portman in ohio, has not been going well. looks like the democrats might be pulling some money out of there. that one might be falling off the board a bit. we showed you just a minute ago new poll has the democrats up in pennsylvania. again, these are all potential targets. mccain out here in arizona, he's ahead in the polls right now. the democrats have a congresswoman challenging him, ann kirkpatrick, going to put real money behind her. if trump were to lose arizona, if there's a backlash against trump at the top of the ticket, could that help the democrats in the senate race even in a state like north carolina, or a state like florida. lot of opportunities here for democrats playing offense in a bunch of states, not playing defense in many.

if they can get to four with the hillary clinton win, that would put them back in control of the senate. i don't mean to get too far ahead of myself here but another thing to keep in mind, the senate class that's up in 2018, i know this is kind of crazy, but the senate class that's up in 2018, a lot of vulnerable democrats there. there are also democrats looking at this and saying they want to get well above 50 this time because they could be in for a lot of defense they have to play in 2018. that's the lay of the land in the race for the u.s. senate. joining me now, stuart stevens, mitt romney's 2012 chief strategist and jane newton-small from "time" magazine. the dilemma of john mccain and marco rubio, every embattled republican senate candidate running this fall, you need your party's base. you need all the republican voters who voted for donald trump in the primary and want to vote for him in november but you need swing voters too, the very voters trump is having trouble connecting with. how do you get both of them if you're a republican? >> i think both of those

candidates, mccain and rubio, have pretty independent images. of course, mccain being a maverick, i don't think he will have any trouble doing that. the greater challenge, you always want the top of your ticket to be winning. there's only a couple examples of senate races where the other party won when the top of the ticket was losing in a really tight close senate race. but this is a very strange year as we keep saying. i don't know if voters aren't just going to see donald trump as something distinct and different and make different decisions about the senate. i think it's beholden on these senate candidates to make a compelling case that one of two people is probably going to be president, they will be the best senator regardless of who that president is. >> you know, we see a lot of these republican incumbents, a lot like mccain and rubio who are sort of straddling it right now on this trump question. you have mark kirk in illinois

who may be the single most endangered republican senator who has rescinded his endorsement of trump. a lot of them trying to keep in the middle of it do you expect by election day we will have more republican candidates overtly distancing themselves from trump? >> i think by tomorrow you might see john mccain distancing himself more from trump. you have donald trump coming into the state of arizona to give a speech about -- major speech you were talking earlier about immigration and that's a tough subject for john mccain when he's pivoting to a general election against a democrat and an electorate in arizona upwards of 30% latino. so having donald trump come to his state in particular right after he's won the primary to give this immigration speech, a lot of people are speculating that john mccain might unendorse donald trump as quickly as tomorrow, especially if he gives this very sort of hot speech about immigration, building that wall in the state of arizona. >> speaking of arizona, that's a state that's voted for the republicans ever since 1996.

polls, though, showing a close race there between trump and clinton. trump up by five in the latest cnn poll. stuart, john mccain, more of a personal question. you know him a little better i think than a lot of people do. he had the reputation for all those years, he was john mccain, the maverick, the straight talk express, the guy who would tell you exactly what's on his mind. he's been in a bit of a bind here but look, obviously donald trump is a guy who went after mccain very personally, said basically he doesn't consider him a war hero because he got captured. do you think by the end of this campaign we will see that old version of john mccain going after donald trump at all or answering any of this? >> i don't think that john mccain is going to get in a fight with donald trump because he's not running against donald trump. he's going to talk about what he's going to do as senator and the connection he has with arizona voters. you know, more than almost probably any candidate in america, john mccain is a man that represents courage, who

stands up for what he believes. i just don't think that's a hill he needs to climb to win in november. >> i want to ask you while you're here, another big name people are trying to figure out what he's going to do in terms of trump, it's your former candidate, mitt romney. he's obviously made his displeasure with trump clear but the question is, do you expect him to get involved and endorse one of these third party candidates? he has close personal connections with bill weld, the libertarian vp candidate. there's evan mcmullin who is running as well. you expect romney will weigh in on this race? >> i have no idea what he will do in the presidential. i think he's going to spend the amount of time trying to help the senate stay republican. a lot of candidates have asked for his help. i think that's going to be his focus and help congressman ryan hold the house and help push the ryan agenda. that's really where governor romney is going to be concentrating. >> all right. thank you both for the time.

up next, what is happening in the state of maine? the governor said he would consider resigning, then tweeted that reports of his demise are greatly exaggerated. tonight, protesters calling for the governor to step down immediately.

welcome back to "hardball." governor paul lepage of maine today sent mixed signals about his political future. both parties in the state legislature in maine have been pressuring lepage to either step down or take corrective actions following a profanity-laced voice mail to a democratic lawmaker. lepage who is a big trump supporter told the local maine radio station this morning that he may not finish out his second term as governor. >> can we anticipate that you are going to finish out your term? >> i don't know, george. as i said earlier, i'm looking at all options. i think some things i have been

asked to do are beyond my ability and i'm not going to say that i'm not going to finish it. i'm not saying that i am going to finish it. if i've lost my ability to convince the maine people that's what we need and that's the type of people we need in augusta, then you know, maybe it is time to move on. >> later this afternoon, the embattled governor tweeted out regarding rumors of resignation, to paraphrase mark twain the reports of my political demise are greatly exaggerated. nbc news reporter tammy lightsmith, are voters going to get what they want or is he digging in now? >> reporter: that's a good question. i don't know. hundreds of protesters out here calling for the governor's resignation, saying he's a bully who makes racist remarks and they are tired of his threats. keep in mind, at this exact same time, across town, republicans are meeting trying to decide how to handle the governor, whether

he should be censured or not. this all started because of a voice mail he left last week for representative drew gattine. in that, it was recorded and there were expletives. at one point he said i want you to record this and make it public because i'm coming after you. steve? >> some drama in maine. we will keep an eye on that. up next, new information on how the clinton campaign is preparing for the challenge of debating donald trump. they are trying to figure out how to bait him into a big mistake on the stage.

donald trump has just landed in washington state. he's holding a fund-raiser and rally at 10:00 eastern in everett. a lot of political experts are wondering why trump is spending time in a state that last voted for a republican 32 years ago, back in the reagan landslide of '84. washington has gone democratic ever since. that was including 1988, when it was one of just ten states won by michael dukakis. the trip to washington follows campaign stops in other non-battleground states including connecticut and mississippi.

>> i think it's going to be one of the highest rated shows in television history. we'll find out.

but i look forward to the debates, i think they're going to be very important. >> welcome back to "hardball." that was donald trump showing some confidence last week in a fox interview, referring to the first presidential debate as a show. now in an interview with "the new york times" he also said he has little use for debate prep. trump's casual approach stands in stark contrast with hillary clinton's. her team is working with the ghost writer of trump's book, the art of the deal, also called on a psychologist regarding trigger points. quote, the clinton camp believes that mr. trump is most insecure about his intelligence, and his reputation as a successful businessman, those are the areas we're looking to target. joined now by carolyn, it's your paper's story. hillary clinton wants to bait donald trump into some mistake or error on the stage, it sounds

like. >> right. it's part of this -- you've seen the general trend where she wants the election to be about donald trump, his lack of suitability for the job, his kind of temperament, and she's a very good debater. and she's also good at enticing sometimes these male candidates to become over-confident. you remember the famous moment when rick lazio invaded her space. they've watched trump, they've seen how easy it is to poke him and that's really what they want to have happen. what they want the memorable clips to be, these sort of trump eruptions. >> we've all seen donald trump in 15 debates now, or whatever it is. but do they know what they're getting into? because it's a different setting for trump. the debates in the republican primaries had ten candidates on stage. he could disappear for 15

minutes at a time. this is one-on-one combat, it's completely different. >> it's a completely different thing. and the stakes are much higher. he was the main story and always the center podium, but there were long stretches where he didn't have to speak. big question, does he have enough to say for 90 minutes or however long the debate is, without repeating himself, or if she goads him into being specific about his policies, can he do that. i think his reluctance to prepare, i think it's typical. bernie sanders didn't want to do debate prep. barack obama -- and these candidates never want to make time for it. they had to bring in george mitchell to play the opponent for bill clinton because it was someone he respected to get him to put the work in. so i think trump saying, i don't want to make time for it is pretty normal. i think hillary clinton and her studiousness and immersing herself in policy books is her wanting to do debate prep.

>> she doesn't mind the homework. "the times" also warns that the clinton campaign is conducting analysis of trump's performance in the primaries. let's take a look back where trump may have looked a little unpresidential in those debates. >> look at those hands. are they small hands? and he referred to my hands, if they're small, something else must be small. i guarantee you, there's no problem, i guarantee it. >> that's another lie. i never went bankrupt. that's another lie. [ all speak at once ] >> don't worry about it, little marco. >> gentlemen! >> you gotta do better than that. >> this guy has never won. >> how tough is it to take property from an old woman. >> let me talk. quiet. honestly, megyn, if you don't like it, i'm sorry. i've been very nice to you, although i could probably maybe not be based on the way you've treated me, but i wouldn't do that. >> so if hillary clinton

identifies one of those trigger points, will donald trump react like that, do you think, in the general election debate? >> i think what was so interesting during the primary season, that really put his opponents on the defensive, and kind of caught them off guard a little bit. the pressure for donald trump is going to be, can he get hillary clinton to talk about things that candidly she hasn't talked about in months, the e-mail server and of course all of the other controversies that are surrounding her. but there was another moment in one of the debates, perhaps donald trump's strongest moment, when he responded to senator ted cruz on new york values. and i think that if that donald trump shows up to play at the debate against hillary clinton, it's gonna be really interesting to see, number one, how she responds, and also how she defends herself. >> the other thing that we're looking in these stories and blueprints about the debate, it's not just one-on-one. he's going to have to subject himself to a moderator, to follow-up questions, to aggressive and maybe contentious questions about policy.

this is something he's been skillfully dodging, especially recently. he's going on hannity, to friendly venues on fox. >> at least he's giving interviews. >> absolutely. i admire that. >> you're right. ten candidates on a stage, a lot of people say it's not a debate, it's more of a show. this will be more of a traditional debate. the round table is staying with us. up next, these three will tell me something i don't know. not a hard task. you're watching "hardball," the place for politics.

>> we're back with the "hardball" round table. the lightning round here, something i don't know. start with you. >> hillary clinton is on track to have her biggest fundraising month yet. she's raised like $50 million with tim kaine raising it for her. she's going to be probably over $90 million, beating her january numbers. >> i didn't know that. >> pastor mark burns is going to double-down on his tweet. i think the apology stands, i think he's going to double-down, though. >> he seemed to go that direction earlier. >> look for democratic money to start pouring into the house races. it might be a distant hope, but they want to make the republicans fight all over the country and spend money. >> thank you all. that's "hardball" for now. "all in with chris hayes" starts right now. tonight on "all in" --