no one will forget. see what the power of points can do for your business. learn more at chase.com/ink good morning and welcome to "a.m. joy." in the next hour, donald trump is scheduled to attend surfaces at detroit's great faith ministries international church as part of his recent outreach to african-american voters which until now has taken place in front of nearly all white audiences. trump also plans to do a one-on-one interview with the pastor, wayne t. jackson. "the new york times" says the interview has been closely scripted with the bishop's questions submitted in advance and answers prepared by trump's handlers. bishop jackson said he plans to throw in surprise questions as well. still unclear whether trump would address the congregation. the times said he would, then

the campaign said he wouldn't. then the campaign said, yes, he will. donald trump's visit to detroit follows a meeting with a small group of african-americans in philadelphia. meanwhile, suf fork university-"usa today" poll shows trump running fourth behind hillary clinton, gary johnson and jill stein. covering trump's visit to detroit is msnbc's trymaine lee. have we got an update of whether or not donald trump will actually speak to the congregation? >> reporter: joy, that's almost at this moment the million dollar question. i spent the last few days talking with black voters who were already feeling the outreach effort by donald trump to black voters was disingenu s disingenuous. now we have the bark and forth, all the drama and theatrics surrounding what folks hope will be a conversation. as you said earlier, it's not clear if that conversation will happen. will he address the audience? will he not? will the media be able to watas

anything? so far now. adding the that, folks not buying what donald trump is selling, we have dozens of protesters already gathered. they're a multifaith group. they've been relatively quiet so far, but already a sizable group. you have muslims and christian, other faiths all together. earlier the security was checking folks to see if they had tickets to get inside. they were turning voeks away. apparently now, at some point they may allow the public to come in. at this point, we don't have any information whether that's started yet. but again, part of the issue with the black folks and their feelings towards donald trump, it may be too little too late. they watched him go city to city. his rhetoric about your schools are no good, your communities are no good, you're getting shot, people feel it's about theatrics. if that's the aim, it's been theatrical so far. >> speak of theatrics.

you've covered lots and lots of rallies in which there are protests outside donald trump events to my knowledge, this would be the first time we're actually seeing donald trump traverse through a black community and potentially through a crowd that contains largely african merricks. do you expect he'll be taken through the front entrance of that church, we'll see a visual of donald trump walking or traversing through that crowd? >> reporter: that would be a sight to behold. we haven't seen donald trump in a black space, per se. but they played this so carefully, hand picked audience by way of the tickets. the kind of scheduling around the closed door interview with bishop wayne jackson, the fact that there will be no questions from the audience as far as we understand. they're playing it so careful, i'm not sure we'll get to the point where we see him weigh into the sea of black church folks. it would be a sight to behold.

at this point, unclear if it will happen. >> thank you for being with us. trymaine lee, thanks for being with us. leah wright mcgirt and robert train ham and reverend dr. william barber, president of the north carolina naacp, along with paris dennard of the national diversity coalition for trump. paris, i'm going to come with you first. you were on tv with me the other night. it was after 11:00 p.m. the reporting was that donald trump would not be speaking at the church and it would be a scripted devent. you were very definitive saying no, no, he's going to speak. do you have inside knowledge as to whether donald trump is or is not going to address the congregation today? >> glad to be with you again this morning. as i said before, i worked with the rnc and am a member of the national coalition for trump,

not officially with the trump campaign. what i have been told is at first "the new york times" piece was inaccurate and there was no public release of the schedule and mr. trump had every intention on addressing the audience at the church service. it's important for our audience here to know this is not a campaign rally, this is not an official trump event. hifs invited by bishop wayne t. jackson to attend the church service and in addition, have an interview afterward for bishop jackson's television network. >> let me ask you a quick question, paris. why did the campaign's rebuttal say the campaign had changed its mind or changed its plans and he would not be addressing the service? they didn't characterize the story as being wrong. the campaign said they changed their plans. >> what i meant by the story being wrong, the fact that that was exactly what was going to

happen today at the church. that was incorrect. >> but if they say they changed their plans, then that means the update to the story is that they are acknowledging the initial story was correct and that they maybe as a result of the story changed their plan. they never refuted the original story. we won't go back and forth on it. i want to make sure that's clear. you characterized their reporting as incorrect. there's been no evidence that the story wasn't correct. >> right. what i'm saying is, if anybody said that report in "the new york times" exactly what was going to happen, in the fluidity of a campaign, that's wrong. we're going to see mr. trump have an excellent event at the invitation of bishop jackson, it will be a good thing. just like he went to new mexico at the invitation of the president, he always shows up when asked. >> reverend barber, i want to play you what trul said about this trip to detroit and get your reaction on the other side. take a listen.

>> you're going to detroit for an african-american outreach. what do you plan to do there? >> really just that, we're going to have an african-american outreach. i have so many african-american friends where they're doing great, making good money, living a good life, they have an american dream going. you have tremendous numbers of african-americans that are having a hard time. say what do you have to loose. give it to me, i'm going to if fix it. >> reverend barber, your response? >> we know what we have to lose. a personal visit is not the issue. it's his policy vision. a revival took a nine-point policy vision to the rnc. instead of receiving it, we were actually almost arrested. he's not visited the naacp or the urban league. he's wrong on voting rights. he came to my state where the courts have said it was

intentional racism by the republican leadership. he said the ruling of the court would actually produce fraud. he's wrong for the affordable care act. he said he will repeal it. 3 million african-americans would lose health care because of republican governors who blocked medicaid expansion. he said he's concerned about the african-american community. he say it is minimum wage is already too high. there are 64 million americans who make less than a living wage, and 54% of african-americans. point after point after point. it's not about a personal visit and a photo op. it's about where he stands on policies that impact racial inequality and class eve inequality in this country. he's wrong. he's simply trying to have a photo op. he said he's going to end violence, but he works with the nra and their proliferation of guns. it is counterintuitive to think

you can come in our community, have a personal visit and that will substitute for a policy vision. >> i have to get some responses for the folks at the table here. leah and robert, as i was playing that clip of donald trump on fox, both of you were ref acting to it. the word i heard coming from you was condescending. >> i don't even know where to begin. let me start with the positive, the positive that donald trump is going to the black community. that's a plus. he's going to a black community or black church and hopefully listening to the concerns of the african-american community. where was donald trump back in june, may, april when he presumably was the republican nominee. let's be honest. this is not about black people. this is about white suburban women, this is about susie, debby, ashley, in the suburbs of philadelphia and cleveland, ohio. the reverend is absolutely right. i as a brown person find it very

condescending when somebody says i'm going to fix your schools or you're going to get shot. the tweet a couple days ago -- >> to dwyane wade. >> exactly. it comes across as so insincere and so condescending, that i'm almost at a loss of words. >> we can show that tweet while i get leah's take before we go back and let paris respond. we can show that tweet. this is when dwyane wade's cousin was killed and donald trump's first instinct was to say -- >> vote trump. >> just as i was saying, african-americans will vote trump. the second tweet was from his campaign. we are able to tell when the tweet comes from the iphone, it was from the campaign. when the tweet came from himself, that's what he said. >> he's raced the tweet. >> he didn't erase it. >> he released it and -- >> he corrected the spelling of dwyane wade's name. >> but still said the same thing. >> right. he stood by it. >> the reality was, his first

tweet was vote trump. it wasn't about condolences. it's always about him. it's always about donald trump and how he can fix things. when you ask him about specifics, paris, there are no specifics. when you ask him about school choice -- >> whoa, whoa, whoa, let's be clear. he's for school choice and supports charter schools. that's a fact. >> i'm hearing this from you, i haven't heard it from donald trump. >> paris, hold on a second. let's first let reverend in. >> if you look at the script he wrote, he says he wants to improve public education but lifts up a voucher program that takes the money and gives it to private schools. it's not about building up public schools. policies, he's not just speaking to suburban whites, but whites particularly in the south who for years since strom thurmond have used divvy sive politics to

suggest that poor white's problems are because of black people. that's why he said your communities are poor. that's coded language. in other words, this is the problem in our society. in fact, the very policies that he supports, even trickle-down economics that would take us back to the recession of george bush, those policies will hurt african-americans and poor whites. republicans are scared of african-americans and poor whites and latinos coming together in the south, because if that happens, the solid south is over and they would no longer have a stronghold on the political electorate in this country. >> leah, the book you wrote gets to this challenge. for african-american republicans, they're trying to sort of thread a line of really supporting the policies that are best for their own community, right? for black folks. but also existing inside of a party that to reverend barber's point, often on a policy basis or even rhetorically, i'll fix it for you. i'll swoop in and be this great white hope because your communities are so bad, that's

tough to defend. >> not only that. if we look at current polling, it shows black republicans, black conservatives actually don't support donald trump. so that says something, when you don't have the support of the black members within your party and who are very vocal about not supporting whoever the nominee is. none of this is sincere, none of it is general anyone. we can look at his history and his remarks. >> let's look at his history. >> yes, let's look at his history. if we want to look at the central park five, his housing discrimination, payments at the front of the birther movement, these are sincere problems. this is why he's sitting at about 95% unpopularity with african-americans across the board including black women where he's rapidly approaching 100% unfavorables. >> paris, to that point, donald trump is going to a black church today. he did this blanket non-apology apology, though he didn't say

anything specific. wouldn't it be a great opportunity if he's sitting in front of that pastor to acknowledge and maybe apologize for having to settle a housing discrimination case in which c for colored was written on the applications of black would-be tenants in his building in new york or seeing he would like to see the central park five later found innocent of the crime that they were accused of, wanting to see them executed or leading and fronting the birther movement? aren't those things he would help himself if he would atone and apologize for them while talking to that pastor? >> i highly doubt that anything mr. trump did would appease you or nish else on the left -- >> you don't think those things are worthy of apologizing for? >> i think it's important to adequately describe his record, when reverend jesse jackson needed office space for his wall street project, he provided that. >> paris, hold on. hold on. we're out of time.

but i have to say -- >> of course you are. >> yes, we are. >> because you didn't let me say anything positive about mr. trump and went on and won about the negatives. >> the fact that when opened up his propertys to african-americans and jews when it was unpopular to do so. meeting with hundreds of pastors on koontd basis. >> why is he at 0% or 1%? >> he's not at 0%. >> you cannot continue to treat the groups that you say that you want to win over like crap and expect you're going to win them over. >> well, he's not. >> hold on, hold on. you know what, paris, you cited him giving office space to jesse jackson on wall street. >> watch youtube clib of jesse jackson praising him. >> reverend barber, we're going

to go to the pastor. >> there's a scripture that says, you say lord, lord, but your heart is from it. i'm an evangelical, an independent. >> so am i. >> i don't need to know his heart. >> you should want to know his heart. >> paris, paris. >> on the heart of his policy, when it comes to where he's been on civil rights, where he's been on voting rights, on progressive economics, he's been wrong in the past, he's wrong in the present and what he's projecting is wrong in the future. he's running to be divider-in-chief. he's trying to say if i have go a black church, he's spoken to the black community. >> not true. >> his policies are bad for black folks, latinos, poor people. economists have said even his trickle-down economics would take us back into recession. repentance would be in order for the day rather than him trying to run a game on the african-american community.

you're right. we don't want to look inside of his heart. when you look at the heart of his policies, they are difficult i have sive and racist and wrong. >> we'll pause it right there. all of these great guests will be back later in the show. there will be more of all of them. coming up next, trump comes full circle on immigration. the political calculations behind his draconian proposals after the break. the lack of saa can also lead to tooth decay and bad breath? well, there is biotene, specially formulated with moisturizers and lubricants... biotene can provide soothing relief and it helps keep your mouth healthy too. biotene, for people who suffer from dry mouth.

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>> earlier this week donald trump continued to try to muddle the message about whether he would take a hard or soft stance on immigration if he were to become president. by friday, the only hard versus soft stance anyone was talking about is how they would like their taco shells if he loses. >> this is a different time. we're having problems here. >> what problems are you talking about? >> my culture is a very dominant culture, and it's imposing and causing problems. if you don't do something about it, you're going to have taco trucks every corner. >> joining me, marina mayor hossa, juan hernandez, co-chair of latinos for trump and -- latinos for johnson weld, and paris dennard of the national diversity coalition for trump. sorry about that. you said adios memo in the first clip from mr. gutierrez.

i want to play you a little more. it was on "all in." i was filling in for chris haines. people started sending previous clips of things mark gutierrez said before. this clip was particularly interesting. i want to play it for you and get your response. >> this is what i think about hispanics, because i am one. our culture is a very dominant culture. if you guys as americans don't do something about this, us hispanics, we're taking over. i have six kids, guys. let's be honest. let's be frank here. >> it's hard to know what to make of that because marco gutierrez himself is mexican american, he's an i'm grant himself. when you hear that as a latina, what do you make of it? >> the immediate reaction i have is the tone of the conversation

nationally seems to have really gotten internalized by people like marco gutierrez. we're now all of a sudden -- it's not enough that there's a sense of latino hate. i'm using that term very specifically because in my reporting that's what i'm hearing. on latino usa, that's what we're hearing as well. now you have him saying this about himself. the truth is, joy, you know, the demographics are true. latinos and apgss are the fastest growing demographic groups in our country. it is going to happen. the united states of america is going to become more latino, more asian. but the notion of, it's something bad -- when i was a little girl growing up in chicago, i would have to leave my neighborhood to the mexican neighborhood to buy the

chipotle. are we going down the tubes? many people are saying what happened on thursday night with this not softening but rather hardening of the immigration stance is that donald trump lost the election. he will not be able to move those numbers with latino voters. >> juan hernandez, just to look at the polling, the latest polling shows donald trump at 19% which is considerably below where mitt romney was when he lost by 5 million votes in 2012. that's a pretty catastrophic number. your reaction to the fact that he still has been able to field people, including latinos who are willing to sort of -- i don't know, push this line, that there is a threat of a latinization of american culture. >> look, i think we as latinos and we as americans in general, we deserve better than the two candidates we've got. on the one hand, we have the insults by trumps. he has insulted me. he has insulted my family,

insulted my friends in mexico. we can go on and on, women, the handicapped. also on the left, i'm sorry to say, we're insulted, fed up with eight years of unkept promises including dignifying immigrants. that's why, by the way, i'm going with the third option, gary johnson, who says he will pass immigration reform. >> let me ask you this question, juan, to stay with you a second. i think a lot of people agree it's disappointing that immigration reform didn't pass. there was obstruction. a bill passed in the united states senate. they won't even bring it up in the house. do you have that conversation about down ballot at some point? it would be signed by the president, even the senate bill, which people think is flawed, the president would sign it in a heard beat. you can't get it on the floor of the house. isn't that a broader conversation? >> when he had both the house and the senate, he didn't promote it. it's a matter of heart, like your pastor said in the last segment, i believe. this gentleman, our president,

has deported more immigrants, good people that are a blessing to our nation than the previous 19 presidents. i can't be told that he is promoting immigration reform when he is deporting, separating 2 million families. he's not promoting. at the beginning of his administration i was called by lindsey graham and mccain, that the president met with him and he really was going to promote immigration reform, would i help go throughout the nation presenting the platform? it's been seven years, we have not been called back by the president. he did not want to promote immigration reform. on the contrary, he wanted them out, vamenos. >> this is the president who also did daca and tried to do dapa as well. that conversation, suzanne, that you're looking at, among latinos and voters trying to decide right now between hillary clinton and donald trump and the third party candidates, where

are you hearing voters falling on that topic of whether immigration reform would be better off in the hands of hillary clinton, better off in the hands of donald trump or one of the third parties? >> i don't think the conversation is much of whose hands it's better in. it's more a conversation of getting this resolved. we have to remember how long this has been going on. i've been in washington, d.c. since 2000. that's when growers, al cultural people and activists actually sat down and came to an agreement for the first time on immigration reform. it got stopped in congress by republicans. people at that time were bringing their children, those who brought their children who are not here legally or were not here legally, they were 4 years old, toddlers, they're 20, 24 years now or maybe even older if they were older children. we've gone this long and i think people in the latino community know that. >> and the last immigration reform was passed by a republican, ronald reagan, right? >> and not been brought up by

the speaker of the house. out can't ignore reality, juan. there is a bill that passed in the united states senate, the house of representatives, the speaker won't bring up. you have a congress, they will not bring immigration reform up. i do want to get paris in here. we haven't allowed him to have a comment. paris, i'm glad to have you hear. the issues of immigration reform are not latino only. there are a lot of black immigrants who are impacted by the lack of immigration reform, too. is this a conversation that you hear taking place among black republicans, quite frankly, that immigration reform needs to be booed ended as a topic? absolutely, joy. it's not that we need to focus exclusively on or say mr. trump is against immigration. it's the issue of illegal i'm grapgs. i'm from phoenix, arizona. i know this issue well. i have hispanics, actually mexicans in my own family. this is very important to me. to your point directly, joy, the issue of illegal immigration, there is an issue with the black

community as relates to jobs and the jobs that may or may not be there. we have to get to the bottom of this. the grounding of america is a good thing. the more entrepreneurs in this country here doing it legally is a good thing. i like have taco trucks on every corner if that means we have young people, millennials that are entrepreneurs being part of the american dream. we can't continue to reward bad behavior. we have to fix the illegal immigration problem. >> i'm a little insulted by the word illegals. >> thank you. i was going to say the same thing. >> i appreciate you using the right vocabulary. i'm careful with every group. we're all god's children, the pastor would say. >> amen. >> nobody is illegal in this world. god put us all here. >> but there are laws. >> we'll leave it at that. this is like being in a family home. when you're in this home, we ask

that you please not use terminology that offends people. y'all are guests in our house. >> like super predators like hillary clinton used. >> paris, you keep on trying. >> we would like an apology to african-americans, to women, to the handicap, to the -- >> hold on, hold on. we're not going to keep belaboring the point. >> the segment is over. paris, good try, trying to take the conversation in a different direction. >> google gary johnson, please. there's a third option. >> thank you very much you all. next, how latino voters could tip the balance in temperature election. stay with us. it's easy to love your laxative...

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a face... no one will forget. see what the power of pots can do for your business. learn more at chase.com/ink and i want to declare to the whole world and to the republican party that under donald trump and under a donald trump administration, all lives matter! >> welcome back to "a.m. joy." pastor mark burns has been a prominent surrogate for donald trump especially when it comes to defending accusations of racism. he released a statement yesterday saying he overstated several details of my biography. that was wrong. i wasn't truthful then and i have to take full responsibility for my actions, unquote. he added, i do also want to set

the record straight about why this attack is happening. because i am a black man supporting donald trump for president. maria and robert are with us. and joining us phillip bump and national republican strad gist katon dawson. you happen to hail from the great state of south carolina where there are not one, but more than one non-white republican prominent office holders to include the governor nikki haley who is indian american and tim scott, one of only two african-american senators. they are not, neither of them, out supporting donald trump. is that unusual not to have prominent elected officials not helping him? >> it is unusual. especially south carolina, an early presidential state where every primary since 1980 we picked the nominee except when

newt gingrich won four years ago. it's extremely unusual. i think it's the volatility of the trump campaign coming through south carolina, some of the rhetoric that was said. it's unusual, joy, yes. >> phillip. if you think back to the 2000 primary between jain and george w. bush, it doesn't get more contentious than that. it was south carolina where supporters of george w. bush accused jain of having an elicit black child, basically casting aspersions on his adopted daughter who is not black, baugh dark come plekted asian and using a racial dog whistle, you still had john mccain come out and support george w. bush for president. >> i think it's a combination of a few things. when an elected official looks to make an endorsement, they want to make sure they're not going to be damaged by their association with this candidate. so donald trump has said all these various things that have

been received very negatively in the african-american community, a large part of the hispanic community as well. that by itself is bad, but the fact it looks as though it's an uphill climb for him to be successful. i think that's one of the reasons why you see a lot of prominent republicans. they don't want to lose someone who they think is going to lose and at the same time is considered toxic in some communities. >> robert, i want to play some sound from reverend joe watkins, pastor of a church in philadelphia, but also worked with the george h.w. bush. he's a very prominent african-american republican. this is what he said about how donald trump ought to be courting his constituency. >> if you want to kourtney constituency, one is with respect, two, to reach out to the leadership of the constituency, in our case, naacp, national urban league with mark more yell, the national association of black journalists. there are a plethora of

african-american organizations that have real constituencies where they can reach out and talk, begin a dialogue. >> you have worked in this area for a long time. when you have republicans like joe watkins not having anything to do with the trump campaign and not having that kind of a level our gat, what does that say to you? >> it says donald trump is in a lot of trouble with black people. i also tells me donald trump is not very sincere in going to the black community. i want to go to pastor burns. i was in the convention hall in cleveland when he had that fiery speech. he spoke very eloquently and passionately about how hillary clinton was a, quote, unquote, liar. his words, not mine. what's interesting about his background, he was disingenuous in a black fraternity, disingenuous with his military record, disingenerous with a master's degree at a seminary school.

you've got to be careful when you throw a boulder from a glass house. everything donald trump is doing is so long on so many different levels with respect to outreach which goes back to my point. i don't think this is about black people. this is about ginning up his base, which we know is a very angry, kau kay shows in the southwest, they feel no one speaking on their behalf. we have donald trump that stoked up the birther stuff. this is a game for donald trump and i'm not sure what the game is going to be. >> maria, also missing from his surrogate list are people like suzanna martinez, a prominent woman latina governor, they're not coming out for donald trump. you don't have marco rubio who said he would be honored to help donald trump become president, but he's not out there stumping for him. ted cruz has not buried the

hatchet. >> as we've heard, if those people come out and support donald trump, their names are from here on in tied to donald trump. interestingly in terms of the disingenuousness of the trump campaign regarding that latino surrogates or latino advisory council that people have now started to step down from, i have heard there were people on that list who were never told that their names were going to be released or made public. these were people that agreed to meet with donald trump and share ideas, and gnaw all of a sudden, without any knowledge from these people, the trump campaign is saying these are latino advisers. it's put them in a very difficult situation. now, if they walk away, they're drawing more attention. but the latino surrogates that we have heard from who have walked away have said, you know what? we feel like we were conned, like we were pawned. >> i want to get kat ton in on

this. how much is the republican party being harmed by the trump campaign? >> we'll see when we count the votes in november. the damage has been done. joy, i spent some time real quickly looking at the carter-reagan race and the gore-bush 43 race, to see the numbers on labor day and what matters. it's not over yet. there's a lot of damage being done. the difference is you've got two candidates, both about 60% of the population don't like them. it's really as odd as a hurricane coming through right now. it's very different, but not over yet. there's a systemic problem with the trump organization which is lack of organization, his family is all intertwined, they've never run political campaigns. on the third set of leadership. you'll see more mistakes, these debates will matter the latter part of the month. >> phillip, just to round it out, hillary clinton is also overwhelmingly winning with

voters of color. it's not even close, not even a contest. what is the threshold at which donald trump's ability to be elected at a national level becomes almost impossible when it comes to looking particularly at latino voters? we know the african-american vote, that seems to be gone away. >> the polls are sort of mixed on the latino vote. there's soimd case he's performing about as well as mitt romney did four years ago on a lot of the polls. he's at the threshold. he's lost education from college educated whites, particularly women. the electorate in 2014 is as diverse as the lack tort in 2008 that elected barack obama. this year should be the most diverse electorate in american history. that is bad news. that means even if he did exactly the same as mitt romney, he would still lose, but in fact, doing worse with most of those groups. >> interesting to see. >> we just need more polling

that is directed to specifically latino voters, because those polls that we have are not zblesk they are a sample inside a larger poll, sometimes 100, 200 people. that's a big challenge. we need more polling on diverse community. maria heene hossa, thank you. next, north carolina's fight to suppress the vote is not over yet. believe it or not. in our next hour, we'll talk debate strategy. how does hillary clinton prepare for the unpredictable donald trump. trump. don't go away. let me show you something better. the capital one venture card. with venture, you earn unlimited double miles on every purchase... not just...(dismissively) airline purchases. every purchase. everywhere. every day.

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on wednesday, the supreme court said no to north carolina governor pat mccrory's request to have the most restrictive provisions of the state's voting law reintuited. the 4-4 tie means it will stand. the fourth circuit said the law targeted african-americans with almost surgical precision. joined by dr. reverend william barber president of the north carolina naacp. reverend barber, is this over with the supreme court 4-4

ruling? >> no. now ha the supreme court found the governors guilty in terms of voter suppression and suppressive redistricting, the local board of elections have been instructed by the republican party to put in place voting times and places that reflect republican values and not the values of our constitution. that was actually put in writing, joy. that is quite troubling. there are two republican members on each local board of elections. we're fighting that in the noocp because what they could do is actually, for instance, only have one polling place for early voters and pre registration. it's happening everywhere from the ploun tans in apalacha all the way to the east coast because they are afraid of a diverse, well-informed and large electorate. >> so what you're saying then is each local board of elections could say, well, we're only going to open until 5:00 or we

or only going to have one office, so they're still gaming the system, you're saying. >> they're gaming the system, not meeting the spirit of what the courts have said. remember the courts voted unanimously that this was intentional race-driven voter suppression. donald trump, for instance, when he came to north carolina actually said that the courts would now be opening up fraud. he refused to even acknowledge that this was illegal and unconstitutional. now the state republican party is trying to continue to game the system. so we are putting in place 1,300 faith centers, 4,000 volunteers, calling on our lawyers to monitor. the plans that are not voted on unanimously at the local level have to come to the state board of election. and we're petitions the state board of election not to allow the system to be gamed, to be used in a way that is racist, and it is unjust. this is a travesty for our governor and our legislature and

local boards of election in the 21st century to continue to try this level of voter suppression. it's immoral. >> i'll let you finish, reverend, but i want the viewers to understand what's at stake here and what the republican party is up against and why the urgency seems to be existing. you have hillary clinton right now in a statistical tight with donald trump in the swing state that barack obama won in '08, lost narrowly in '12. governor mccrory himself is in trouble. he is losing right now re-election. in your view, is this an attempt to essentially ensure the governor's re-election? >> i think it's a duality to it. when president obama won in 2008, if you remember, it was during the early voting, same day registration period. what happened in north carolina and virginia and florida in the south showed the possibility of

breaking through the solid south. joy, i've said this time and time again. if you take away the ability of the extremist arm of the republican party to control 160 electoral votes -- that's what they control if they can get a solid south, a form arer confederate state, you fundamentally shift america, shift the electorate and politics in this country i.'s about mccrory's election. he's done so much to hurt so many people, black, poor, teachers and otherwise. but it's also about trying to hold on to power, but do it in a way that undermines people's right to vote. it's immoral. it's unconstitutional and we're having to fight it with everything we can, because we already know in the south, if you register 30% of the unregistered african-americans, if those persons connect on a policy vision with white people, particularly poor and working class white people and then connect with the latinos, the

solid south is broken. the demographics in north carolina, georgia and mississippi is broken, that's an electoral possibility in this country. >> reverend dr. william barber, thank you so much for you do to fight this fight. message from john roberts, history didn't end in 1955. no, sir, it did not, neither did attempts to suppress the vote. you have a great labor day. >> god bless you. >> labor day weekend begins the final sprint to election day. the next big event will be the debate. we'll take a closer look at how the candidates are getting ready. more "a.m. joy" at the top of the hour. , woah! you're not taking that. come with me. you're not taking that. you're not taking that. you're not taking that. mom, i'm taking the subaru. don't be late. even when we're not there to keep them safe, our subaru outback will be.

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anything. >> welcome back. to many people this holiday signals the end of the season of sunshine. indeed winter is coming. so are the presidential debates. yesterday the commission on presidential debates finished hammering out the details. msnbc's own lester holt kicks it off in hempstead new york. martha rad ditch and anderson cooper on october 9th. chris wallace will host the final debate on october 19th. how does one prepare when one contender is as unpredictable and unprecedented as a white walker? >> this guy is a -- >> don't worry about it, little marquee. >> let's hear about it big donald. >> this is a tough business, to run for president.

>> i never attacked him on his look. believe me, there's plenty of subject matter right there. i've given my answer, lying ted. >> relax. >> you're relaxed. >> go ahead. >> don't get nervous. >> go ahead. >> wow, joining me now is democratic strategist careen john be air, david corn and msnbc political analyst rick tyler. a lot to work with here. i'm going to go to you first. ladies first, korean, corinne. this is going to -- the question i'm going to ask you is how you would prepare hillary clinton if you were advising her on how to handle this style, the interrupt style of donald trump. this is trump going after rubio. >> you're the only person on this stage ever fined to hire people to work on your projects illegal. >> i'm the only one on the stage that's hired people. you haven't hired anybody.

by the way, i've hired tens of thousands of people over my job. you've hired nobody. >> a thousand people from another country. >> credit cards, et cetera. >> let me finish. >> senator, hold on. >> he hired workers from poland and he had to pay a million dollars or so in a judgment. >> that's wrong, wrong, totally wrong. >> corinne, marco rubio has a substantive point. donald trump did, in fact, hire these workers from poll land who basically tore down the old bon wit teller building. they didn't get paid, no hard hats, injured themselves. he couldn't even get it out of his mouth. how would hillary clinton handle that style from trump? >> that's a really good question, joy. i've sat in on many debate preps for presidential campaign, most recently in 2016. what's going to need to happen here are mock debates. that's going to be extremely

important for her which is making sure that someone is standing next to her and throwing those insults out, like throwing the insults of whatever he thinks hillary clinton has done in the past and also those conspiracy theories he loves to go after. she has to be able to handle that and manage that. mock debates here are going to be extremely important. it's practice, practice, practice. she's a candidate of substance, as we all know, a masterful debater. really is into the nuances of policy. that's going to be key for her. he is the total opposite. he doesn't want to learn about substance as we saw that kind of back and forth there. but it is all going to be about practice, practice, practice, mock debates, getting someone who stands next to her and does exactly what we just saw which is just go after her, and she has to hold her cool because she has to still give the appearance of commander-in-chief, having

the temperament, being very presidential. so she has to really show that side of her. you know, that secretary of state side. >> david, the point karine just made, presenting hillary clinton as a good debater. she probably won more of the debates against barack obama than she lost. but does that in a way almost hurt her in the sense that the media is going to go in with the expectation that she's the better debater and have zero bar for donald trump, if he doesn't drool or fall down, they'll say he won the debate. >> we saw last week all he had to do was read a statement next to a mexican president and he was cited for being a great statesman. i think the expect takes is she knows how to handle these situations, and the question mark is all focused on donald trump. i do think she could be the muhammad ali of this fight. can i explain why? >> yes, please. >> roper dope.

when he was up against certain opponents, he learned to take the punches and wait for his moment to swing and let the other guy just flail about. i think that's the problem. in the republican debates, it was always a whirling dervish. trump never had to talk for more than 20 seconds, always had another target to go at. okay, here is 90 minutes, talk to us about housing policy, and he starts saying crooked hillary, crooked hillary. she can look at him and roll her eyebrows and say, come on, what's going on here, let's talk about real issues. she has to stay cooled and let him i think give him enough rope to hang himself. >> i want to go to rick tyler on this. i want to play another version of donald trump. that is true, that he can do the sort of whirling dervish style. but he also can do the lay in wait style and be somewhat effective at it. i want to play an exchange between donald trump and your former candidate ted cruz from one of the debates back on

january 14. take a look. >> i think most people know exactly what new york values are. >> i am from new york. >> you're from new york, so you might not. but i promise you in the state of south carolina, they do. >> he insulted a lot of people. i've had more calls on that statement that ted made. when the world trade center came down, i saw something that no place on earth could have handled more beautifully, more humanely than new york. >> rick, keeping in mind that he won't have an advantage on new york because he was a senator from new york, but do you think that donald trump has it in him to remain that calm for 90 full minutes? >> he really is going to have to, i think. this is the first time we'll see donald trump, as david said, and i think david's advice there is very good, donald trump should listen to it, in that her central argument is donald trump does not have the temperament to be president. i suspect hillary clinton will

be trying to get donald trump's temperament to come out to prove her point. her greatest argument is that she is competent to be president and others -- donald trump, his main argument was that she's dishonest. he's going to want to make her look dishonest. she's got to make him look like he doesn't have the temperament to be president. you noticed you've got to prepare for moments like that. the other one that was interesting, marco rubio walked right into that question. he should have known that the answer was going to be you've never hired anyone. he could have phrased it differently. he was prepared with that line. >> being prepared with zingers is one of the dee keb bate strategies. >> i want to go to you, katon. i'm doing it because i love you, man. i'm going to make you advise hillary clinton, my republican strategist pal. i want to play for you a 2008 debate moment that probably the

obama prep team thought was a good idea that turned out not to be such a great zinger. take a look. >> he's very likable. i agree with that. i don't think i'm that the bad. >> you're likable enough. >> thank you so much. >> katon, what that shows, you saw hillary clinton's reaction there. she has an ability to charm. i think people see her doing big speeches and she's not very good at it. in those more intimate settings, she can call the charm card and she's a woman. debating a woman not necessarily that easy. give hillary clinton some advice, are there place wheres she can inject a little charm and is it going to be hard for donald trump to go after her because, again, you're debating a woman? >> as rick and i both know, donald trump, when they were saying he won the republican debates, that was in the middle of an awful lot of chaos and confusion, and the campaign kept saying how in the hell do they

think he won that debate? moving to a hillary clinton, trained lawyer, first lady, secretary of state, senator, whole different ball game. donald trump has everything to lose, and hillary clinton has everything to gain here. if she can show her personality, people that know her personally think she's very funny, witty, amusing, she's got a bad negative to get over, and people want to like somebody they're voting for. my advice to her, she's got to be likable. she can defend herself and talk about policies. donald trump is going to try to make her very unlikable, a mean entitled person and corrupt. she'll get by that and see what happens. donald trump has a bridge too far to go right now. i read this morning that his debate prep is minimal, that he's not using a surrogate to stand in. so we'll see. but donald trump has got to perform.

he doesn't have any error space in there. >> david, were you trying to get in? >> there may be an interesting moment here. if he tries to treat her differently than he does on the campaign, she can call him out on this. can he really get in a debate and call her crooked hillary for 90 minutes. the way he's talked about her, locking her up, deporting her, putting her in jail and calling her these names over and over again. he has a strategic choice, how do you stick with that or not do that and look like he's a wimp? >> i'll give karine the last word. we talked about the woman card. it's a reality of the performance part of debates. is there a positive, a negative? how do you round up, just as a last word, karine, how the woman factor plays for hillary. is it a fair question? >> i think because it's donald trump, i don't think it matters. as we've seen over and over again, he doesn't care. i know david was talking about maybe he can switch it up and

not do what he does on the campaign. he doesn't know how to pivot. he does these faux pivots and waurks right back into the 360 he does all the time. i don't think it matters. i think it's a hatred against the clintons, the conspiracy theory he continues to sling out there as red meat to his base. it's not going to matter at all. >> it's going to be interesting. i am waiting to see which one of the candidates uses the clintons at the wedding card, whether it will be donald trump trying to use it against her or her saying, you know, i was good enough to invite to your nuptials. >> that's a good line. >> it will be interesting. >> now steal that line clinton campaign. we'll be back. thank you very much. a quick programming note on wednesday msnbc and nbc news along with iraq and afghanistan veterans of america will host nominees hillary clinton and donald trump for a live prime time forum to focus, collusively on issues that the next president will have to confront as commander-in-chief.

up next. new backlash over quarterback colin kaepernick's national anthem protest. all i could think about was our deadlines racing towards us. a loan would take too long. we needed money, now. my amex card helped me buy the ingredients to fill the orders. opportunities don't wait around, so you have to be ready for them. find out how american express cards and services can help prepare you for growth at open.com. ...cleasee ya!ake off. find out how american express cards and services when you're living with diabetes. steady is exciting. oh this is living baby! only glucerna has carbsteady, to help minimize blood sugar spikes. and try new glucerna hunger smart to help you feel full. ah, my poor mouth breather. allergies? stuffy nose? can't sleep? enough.

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that go into it. i'm very proud to make dog chow right here iedmond, oklahoma. narrator: it wasn't that long ago. years of devastating cutbacks to our schools. 30,000 teachers laid off. class sizes increased. art and music programs cut. we can't ever go back. ryan ruelas: so vote yes on proposition 55. reagan duncan: prop 55 prevents 4 billion in new cuts to our schools. letty muñoz-gonzalez: simply by maintaining the current tax rate on the wealthiest californians. ryan ruelas: no new education cuts, and no new taxes.

reagan duncan: vote yes on 55. sarah morgan: to help our children thrive. i realize that men and women of the military go out and sack face their lives and put themselves in harm's way for my freedoms of speech, my freedoms in this country, my freedom to take a seat or take a knee. i have the utmost respect for them, i think what i did was taken out of context and spun a different way. the message is that we have a lot of issues in this country we have to deal with. we have a lot of people who are oppressed, a lot of people that aren't treated equally, aren't given equal opportunities. >> san francisco quarterback

colin kaepernick is facing new fallout over his decision not to stand during the national anthem in protest of police brutality. the santa clara police department is may not work the games. trims the rosters to 53 players could give the 4ers an excuse. on thursday where military members were honored, kaepernick kneeling during the national anthem. his teammate eric reid joined him. >> dave, thank you for being here. you have a piece out right now entitled colin kaepernick's protest has nothing to do with the military. explain. >> well, this has been spun by all the legions of people attempting to bash colin kaepernick to say he's doing this to somehow disrespect the military. what i've been struck by is how

clear colin kaepernick is w, fr day one he said this is about police violence, about the issue of police brutality, about the fact that we don't have a system of police accountability in this country. when you can spin it to be about the military, what that allows you to do is call colin kaepernick unpatriotic which is horrifically ironic since he's exercising his right to dissent. it speaks to the utter hypocrisy about how some people view these kinds of issues. i can't help listening to your last segment where others remarked. the idea it's okay for donald trump to go across the country bashing the united states amend for kaepernick to say we have a problem with police accountability where donald trump geltz to say effect tifrly, go back to africa. he said find yourself another

country to live in then. it says something about who has the right to have dissent in this country. what colin kaepernick has done, he's exposed so many of the hypocrisies that underline how we view free speech and dissent and how we view who is allowed to speak out in this country. the fact that the police, for goodness sakes, are threatening to not provide security for games basically saying as a government body that they plan, they are organizing themselves to infringe on colin kaepernick's first amendment rights and doing so by really the threat of their guns, saying we will not bring our guns. we are exercising our second amendment rights to prevent you from exercising your first amendment rights, that to me gives the game away. i'm sorry. being a police officer, that's supposed to be about public service, not about threatening people who say things that you disagree with. >> and police are the government. police are the government. police are the government. you have to say it almost every

day as a mantra. they the government. they are exercising their second amendment rights, but under color of law. the people who do seem to get it, interestingly enough, are members of the military. not only did you have a veteran's letter supporting colin kaepernick signed by more 30 veterans where they said as military veterans we write to express our support for tradition of advocacy by athletes as embodied by jackie robinson and carried on by kaepernick. you also have this. there's a guy named nate boyer, a green beret. before thursday's game -- this is a pretty powerful statement. let's take a listen. >> people are going to be offended, and that's okay. i also have fought for that right. it was a snapshot of where we're at as a country right now. colin is a sensitive guy. he cares about these issues deeply and he wants to see

change. he really does. it's not a stunt. >> a lot of people would question about what the national anthem instance has to do with football it's an interesting juxtaposition to have that taking place at a sporting event. but military people seem to get it. >> that's honestly because a lot of military people have to deal with the reality of fighting overseas and then coming back to a country that isn't fulfilling their end of the bargain. one of the things colin kaepernick has spoken specifically about is the issue of military veterans who have been victims of police violence. walter scott, a veteran killed on camera by police officers, colin kaepernick has specifically said and been very, very cleerk about the fact that not only does this not have to do with military veterans, this has to do with the gap between what we're saying our flag, what this anthem means and the reality of oppression that does exist in this country. this is a very straightforward statement, and the idea that his career could be threatened for

it is really stunning to me, although i tell you something, if the san francisco 49ers cut colin kaepernick, they are facing one hell of a backlash. more people in the nfl are standing up for him. more teammates are stand up for him. hell, a member of the seattle seahawks, the rival teams of the 49ers, jeremy lane took a knee in sol dart with colin kaepernick. that's why the nfl is stepping gingerly around this issue saying, hey, this is the 49ers' team policy, we're taking a hands-off approach. the nfl has zero black ownership and makes billions off the destruction of black bodies, 60% black. they could be opening up one hell of a can of worms. >> your last comment on this idea, to end where we began, of police essentially wrapping

themselves in the military mantra when they are not, in fact, military. how does that strike you, that you have this police union essentially wrapping themselves in the military themselves? >> very upsetting. once again, i'll quote colin kaepernick who said we have a problem when in some states it takes more training to be a cosmetologist, to use a curling iron than a police officer. colin kaepernick is risking the backlash and that is an example of what courage means and exercising your constitutional right to dissent. >> absolutely. dave zirin, you're terrific. always a pleasure to talk to you. have a great labor day weekend. >> and so much more after the break. it's easy to love your laxative...

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and so many businesses rely on the united states postal service to get it there. that's why we make more ecommerce deliveries to homes than anyone else in the country. the united states postal service. priority: you it's scary when the lights go out. people get anxious and my office gets flooded with calls. so many things can go wrong. it's my worst nightmare. every second that power is out, my city's at risk. siemens digital grid manages and reroutes power, so service can be restored within seconds. priority number one is keeping those lights on. it takes ingenuity to defeat the monsters that live in the dark. you're looking at live pictures from great faith ministries where donald trump is attending services this morning. he's expected to tour with ben

carson after the service. the campaign did an interview with reverend jackson. we don't know whether donald trump karine got up and said anything to the congregation or if he will. what do you make of what we're seeing today. is this an optic that can help donald trump in his campaign? >> no, joy, not at all. first of all, he's in michigan which mitt romney lost by 11 points back in 2012. why he's there at least for strategic going, getting to that 270 makes no sense. he's not reaching out to african-american voters. he lost african-american voters back in 2011 when he decided he was going to become the grand wizard of the birther movement. birtherism is inherently racist. not only did he insulted the office of the presidency, but also insulted the first black president. this is not about african-americans at all. >> katon, you're a man of the south, so you're very familiar with the black church as a core

component of democratic campaigns even though you are, yourself, in the gop. you know this is what a lot of candidates do. they go into african-american churches, talk to pastors. they know that get out the vote efforts are very important in reaching african-americans. however, with republicans it's a little fraught, right? there's a different recent history, at least in the last 50 years and is vaulting over things like the naacp, vaulting over the urban league and sitting in the front pew of a church, having bypassed everything else. is that something you would advise a republican candidate to do? >> i'll tell you, having been a republican party chairman in the deep south, the most welcomed place i ever was was at an african-american evangelical church. not that i left with any voters, but i left with some friends. let's see what donald trump

talks about the issues here. i understand why he's going, i understand part of his message which is jobs. let's see if he wants to touch the pro life issue. that's the one they have in common with the republican party. i think the message donald trump probably needs to deliver over the groups is jobs. better jobs, available jobs. that's the message that he has that can win a few votes. but let's see what he does on the pro life sector. that's something we have in common with african-american evangelicals. i doubt he does, but i'll be curious to see what he does. as far as jumping over the others, the church is the fabric -- >> you know we're seeing democratic here. >> i got it. i got it. at the end of the day, he is not going to walk out with a lot of votes. and what they are looking at is the 43% of the electorate classified as independents. that's what everybody from labor

day forward is going to start looking at, persuadable votes. donald trump has got to be likable and this is maybe a part of that new theory and the new management team he's put together. >> david corn is now joining us as well. david, i'll ask you, the think that might have been the most surprising about the donald trump campaign and the way it's worked out, despite his own personal history in terms of racial issues and birtherism that karine brought up, what surprises me is he doesn't stick with the message he started with, things like trade and jobs. that's sort of what he came in with as a potential strength. it could have made him a crossover candidate. here he is in michigan. but the message we've heard so far in his previews to this appearance today were still about crime, about portraying the black community as dangerous and portraying himself as the great white hope that will save black people from each other. did it surprise you as somebody who has observed the trump campaign for the last year that

his message veered off of things like trade that maybe could have helped him in michigan? >> i think he got sucked into the black hole of immigration and the alt-right. since then talking about trade issues and job issues. they're close and there's a strong overlap between the economic resentment that those issues address amongst some blue dollar, low income white voters out there. it seemed to me the anger that we saw last week in the immigration speech was really the secret sauce that held everything together, at least got him animated. when he talked about trade -- talking about jobs, he had less to say about what he would actually do other than a better job, and i will give you jobs, than immigration issue, where you talk about the wall. the wall is the only policy issue that he seems to care about and has spent at least a

couple minutes thinking about the details of. so that's why he goes back to that time and time again. >> karine, if the strategy was to pivot with a conversation with black voters that would involve black churches, he has a vocal supporter who has a decent black church in cleveland, in a state where he has -- to your point earlier -- a much better shot in ohio than he possibly is going to have in michigan. republicans aren't going to win michigan. does it surprise you he didn't take advantage, let's say, of maybe going to his pastor friend in cleveland's church earlier in the campaign, or melissa who is an ordained minister, just playing the church crowd now, is the location weird or the timing? >> i think the whole thing is weird. there is no strategy. once again, the trump campaign proves to us they don't have the strategy. going to the african-american vote that he's really not

outreaching to, he's polling zero to 2% with that community. there are technically four presidential candidates in this race and he's placed fourth when it comes to the african-american community. he does character assassination in front of a all white crowd about the community. this is not about us at all. maybe they do have some sort of strategy. what this is about is their base, right? keep throwing that red meat to their base, and also they're hemorrhaging with suburban educated white voters who do not want to volt for a racist. it has nothing to do about us at all. >> very quickly before i go, we have a correspond we want to go to in a moment. karine, having worked on the obama campaign, had you heard of impact network, is this a gospel related network that this bishop works with that will reach a substantial number of black voters? >> i have to say i haven't heard of the network.

that doesn't really mean that it doesn't have some sort of play in this state, but i have not heard of it. >> just curious. let's bring in nbc's jacob rascon right outside the church in detroit. jacob, i want to get a sense from you what the atmosphere and mood is outside. also, if you saw donald trump enter the church, what the mood and atmosphere was like when that happened? >> reporter: joy, i do hear you. we have a few dozen protesters out here, not happy that donald trump is in their neighborhood, they say. if you look around you'll look around and hear signs, what do you want? we want trump to go. this has been going on for an hour or so. at first it was a little bit tense. when they showed up, they tried to actually enter the church area, the gates over here. they were stopped by police. the horses got in the way. it was intense for a moment. since then they've been marching around in circles. over here you have the actual

kwch, and people were entering from several hours ago, some who didn't have tickets were turned away. you asked about trump arriving. that happened down the street over here. they blocked it off for a while, for 45 minutes or so. so nobody was allowed over there except for our cameras from pretty far away. he arrived with little fanfare. he did a wave and walked in. i understand now he's inside, sitting down next to ben carson. there's some praying and other things. here is what's outside? i'll point out, joy, they love this. what do you have to lose? we hear it everywhere we go. they love he said that because they have the perfect answer. they say everything. >> absolutely. if you talk to individual protesters out there to tell you what specifically about donald trump's message has upset them. is there a thing people have zeroed in on that they're angry about?

>> reporter: yes. it's interesting, a few protesters say they give trump credit for showing up. one said, and i asked, does it mean anything that he actually came here. they said, yeah, i give trump an a for showing up. if he says something inside about any specific ideas, i'd give him another a, but i'm in the going to vote for him, he says. when you ask why not trump, we've heard he's racist, he doesn't support the african-american community. really i haven't heard specifics there. i'll also add, joy, i talked to the mayor of detroit earlier today. he was here holding a press conference to say, trump, we hope you'll come with specifics because we don't like what we're hearing so far. i asked the mayor if he would be willing to listen if trump did have specifics. he said, yes, i hope he has something specific to say but i don't expect it. from what we've heard from tr p trump, i don't expect anything but a fet toe opinion.

joy. >> nbc's jacob rascon outside the great faith ministries in detroit. thank you. back with me is karine, katon and david. you hopefully could hear what jacob was saying, people were giving trump credit for showing up, that being there is half the battle. then on the other side of it, you heard people characterizing donald trump as racist. that is the impression of at least some african-americans going in. is there anything a candidate can do to change that if that is what people think of them. >> that's the gamble donald trump is playing into. donald trump is going to leave there feeling really good. these are audiences inside that church that are very friendly, kind and caring people. that doesn't mean they're going to vote for him. what i did see outside that report was a couple hundred people in a very well organized hillary clinton effort. those signs didn't get made by

the people. they got made this morning or yesterday by clinton staffers. i applaud that. that's the difference in these two campaigns, donald trump doesn't have the infrastructure out there to combat this type stuff. i applaud him for going into the church. it doesn't matter what city it's in. it's going to be reported it's in detroit riechlt now this is a national campaign, so it's going to be reported all over the country of what he says, what he does and how he conducts himself. he'll get some kudos. like the person said, they give him an a for coming. the news will report on the protest outside. that's clinton's apparatus, their their m.o. and they're good at it. i applaud their campaign. let's see if donald trump says anything. >> let's go to karine, our strategist on the other side. everything that happens usually has a strategic element to it, where a candidate goes, what congregations that choose to get in front of, the state they choose to be in. it doesn't feel like there's

anything strategic happening on the trump side. he could have done this in a state that was in more convention, he could have done it much earlier in the campaign. optically from his point of view, all he gets out of it is the credit for showing up. who does that help him with? if it doesn't held him with black voters, who does it help him with? >> like i said before, joy, there are these anti trump voters who should be with the republican -- in the republican win column, that he is just losing, losing because of the type of campaign that he ran for the past 14 months. that's who he is talking to. the problem that trump has is, if he's seriously thinking about winning this election is those anti trump voters which is the white, educated, suburban voters, if they decide not to come out to vote, then that's a problem for him. that's who he's talking to. their campaign must have realized this. this is what this is all about.

has nothing to do with detroit, nothing to do with the state of michigan, nothing to do with this congregation, unfortunately. they're just being used for a photo op, being politicized and that is what's happening. maybe he'll get an a for effort and will have the photo op that he needs with that base, but that's all that's going to happen. >> i can definitely see, david, these images of donald trump on the front pew, greeting parishioners inside this church being replayed over and over and over again to prove, look at that, the black people love trump. he does risk looking like a tourist in his own country. there's a downside to it potentially. >> anyone who sees him that way is already against him. i think karine's point cannot be emphasized enough. this election will be determined i think in large measure on election day, when you have suburban republican or moderate

voters. they're going to wake up and make a decision. what trump and the republicans want is for them to say, oh, he's not that bad. what hillary wants is to say this guy is a crazy nan, erratic and a racist, as speaker ryan called him at one point. everything trump is doing here is not to get a single more additional black vote. it's so people, those republicans, those moderates say, well, he ain't that bad, i think i can vote for him. he's trying to undo years of racist behavior going back to the birther stuff which you've already noted. >> we talked earlier, for the viewers there, earlier about surrogates and the lack of high level surrogates that donald trump has been able to attract. we should note darrell scott who is a pastor supportive of donald trump for a very long time is standing next to trump when there was a zoomed-in shot, you can see he's standing next to him. bishop wayne t. jackson is the

minister that is the pastor of this particular church where donald trump is. he's also got ben carson with him. he's supposed to tour a neighborhood in the area. ben carson, of course, is a native of detroit, grew up in detroit. karine, i wonder if one of the things the trump campaign wants out of this are more surrogates, people who are in the church -- i presume if the pastor is a conservative, he may have parishioners that might come out and vouch for how it went, hunt for more people to speak up for him. is there also a risk that people come out and say something different? >> absolutely, because it's not controlled. this is just a kind of fly by night kind of decision they made because they were getting the pressure of, hey, you're talking to all white audiences and character assassinating the african-american community. this is what this is all about. he got pushed, he got the pressure, so he ended up at this church today.

like you were alluding to, joy, this could backfire. >> bishop wayne t. jackson is speaking i think. let's see if we can hear a little bit of what's being said. >> now, a little different than that presbyterian church where you were raised. i want to say this. mr. trump and his investigation of wanting to go in fellowship with african-americans, he asked around the country where he should go. they said, well, impact has the reach and also bishop jackson is fair. i'm going to be able to sit down with african-american -- not only here, but all over this country. this country must be united, united. originally it was stated that mr. trump would not have any words to say but a greeting.

but mr. trump came prepared to say a greeting and a few words that he wants to say, coming to detroit. he feels like it is important that he just don't sit down. that he wants to come and just say a few words, and we said to him, i want all the press and everybody to know, it was not scheduled. he was going to come down and sit down and have service after the interview and then he has to go and do other business in the city of detroit. since mr. trump wants to say a sfu words, we're going to allow him -- can we bring the podium out, please, while you're sitting there? mr. trump, will you come and would you stand -- would you stand mr. trump again.

thank you, thank you very much. thank you. that's so nice. thank you. >> thank you, sir. >> that's so nice. bishop jackson, i want to thank you and dr. jackson, and you have some voice, i have to sayment incredible, and some spirit, some spirit. true. talent. thank you. well, i just wrote this the other day knowing i'd be here, and i mean it from the heart, and i'd like to just read it,

and i think you'll understand it maybe better than i do in certain ways. for centuries the african-american church has been the conscience of our country. so true. it's from the pews and pulpits and christian teachings of black churches all across this land that the civil rights movement lifted up its soul and lifted up the soul of our nation. it's from these pews that our nation has been inspired toward a better moral character, a deeper concern for mankind and spirit of charity and unity that binds us all together. and we are bound together, and i see that today. this has been an amazing day for me. the african-american faith community has been one of god's greatest gifts to america and to its people. there is perhaps no action our

leaders can take that would do more to heal our country, and support our people than to provide a greater platform to the black churches and churchgoers. you do right every day by your community and your families. you raise children in the light of god. i will always support your church, always, and defend your right to worship. so important. i am here today to listen to your message, and i hope my presence here will also help your voice to reach new audiences in our country, and many of these audiences desperately need your spirit and your thought. i can tell you that. christian faith is not the past, but the present and the future. make it stronger. make it stronger.

and we'll open it up to great, great leaders like pastor jackson, bishop jackson, dr. jackson, and so many others and so many others actually sitting here, darrell scott who is phenomenal who has been with me for so long, so long. omerosa who is actually a very nice person, but i don't want to say that, because i'll destroy her image by saying that. she's actually a very, very fine person and a pastor. i just want to thank all the folks, and there is somebody that has been very special to me, dr. ben carson -- stand up, ben. come here, ben. this is a great man and a great guy. so as i prepare to campaign all across the nation and in every community, i will have an

opportunity to lay out my plans for economic change which will be so good tore detroit and so good for this community because we're going to bring jobs back. i will have a chance chance, th you. bringing them back. taking them back from mexico and everywhere else because they're gone. a great education, a great job, but today, i want to let you know that i am here to listen to you and i've been doing that. we had a fantastic interview with bishop jackson. it was really an amazing interview. he's better than the people that do that professionally. i will tell you. it's true. it's true. he's better. and i didn't really know what i was getting myself into. i didn't know. is this going to be nice?

wild? he is a great gentlemen and a very smart guy. just hope you don't lose him to hollywood. that's the only problem and especially, and especially dr. jackson. she may be gone. hollywood is calling. look at all, look at all those television cameras back there. no, look at all the television cameras. i'm sorry to do that to you, bishop, because youp, one of those things, right? our nation is too divided. we talk past each other. not to each other. and those who seek office do not do enough to step into the community and learn what is going on. they don't know. they have no clue. i'm here today to learn so we can together remedy injustice. in any form and so we can remedy economics. so that the african-american

america can benefit economically and so many other different ways. our political system has failed the people and works only to enrich itself. i want to reform that system. so that it works p for you. everybody in this room. i believe true reform can only come from outside the system. i really mean that. being a business man is much different because i understand what's happening. and we are going outside of the establishment. becoming the nominee of the party of lincoln, the great abrahamlingen, was republican. has been the greatest honor of my life. it is on his legacy that i hope to build the future of the party, but more important, the future of the country and the community. i believe we need a civil rights

agenda, one that assumes the rights to a great education. so important and the right to live in sift and in peace and to have a really, really great job, a great paying job and one you love to go to every morning and that can happen. need to bring our companies back it also means the right to have a government that protects our workers and fights, really fights, for our jobs. i want to help you build and rebuild and we can do that with people like bishop and doctor jackson. it's been an amazing experience. nothing is more sad than when we sideline young black men with unfulfilled potential. tremendous potential.

and i met some people this morning that were increde bable people and they're looking for jobs. these wrynn incredible people. able to harn esz the brilliance the energy of these folks. one nation and when anyone hu s hurts, we all hurt together and that's so true. we're all brothers and sisters. we're all created by the same god. we must love each other and support each other. and we are in this all together. all together. i fully understand that the african-american community has suffered from discrimination. and that there are many wrongs that must still be made right. they will be made right. i want to make america prosperous for everyone. i want to make this city the

economic envy of the world. we can do that. we can do that again. factories everywhere, new roads and bridges, new schools. especially schools. and new hope. i have been so greatly blessed and in so many ways, with no greater blessing than my family. had a great family. nothing would make me happier and more fulfilled than to use what i have learn ed in busines and in traveling all over the world, sort of ciaran a lot. the to bring the wealth and prosper fi and opportunity to those who have not had these opportunities before. that's many, many people in detroit. when i see wages falling, people out of work, i know the hardships this inflicts and i am determined to do something about it. i will do something about it. i do get things done. i will tell you.

some people have strengths. that's one of mine. i get things done. i'm going get things done for you. please know this, for any who are hurting, things are going to turn around. tomorrow will be better. much better. the pastor and i were talking about riding up the street and we see all those closed stores. people sitting down on the sidewalk. and no jobs and no activity. we'll get it turned around. we'll get it turned around, pastor. believe me. we're going to win again as a country. and we're going to win again for all of our people. i want to work with you to renew the bonds of trust between citizens and the bonds of faith that make our nation strong. america's been lifted out of difficult hours and through the miracle of faith and through

people like bishop jackson and dr. jackson. so important. people have no idea how important they are. now in these hard times for our country, let us turn again to our christian heritage to lift up the soul of her nation. i am so deeply grateful to be here today. and it is my prayer that america of tomorrow and i mean that, that the america of term will be one of unity, togetherness and peace. and perhaps we can add the word prosperi prosperity. prosperity. i'd like to conclude with a passage from 1 john chapter 4. you know it. see, most groups i speak to don't know that. but we know it.

if you want, we can say it together. no one has ever seen god. but if we love one another, god lives in us and his love is made complete in us. that's so true. thank you very much. this has been such an honor. thank you very much. bishop, thank you, sir. thank you. >> what a speech at the, donald trump, he just gave essentially a speech at the church in michigan. reverend barber, your reaction. >> it's interesting that donald trump would end with this conversation about love from 1 john, but walk right over for instance what jesus said about when you love the truth position is to care for the poor. the least of these, the broken, the sick and those who have been made to feel unaccepted. he's run a campaign basically saying that latinos are not welcome in this country. he's tried to pit latinos against african-americans. pit gay people against the muslim community.

regards of what he said at that podium, he's said he would repeal obama care, which would take 220 million people's health insurance, 3 million of them are african-americans and there would be thousands more if gop governments throughout the south, particularly had not blockeded medicaid expansion. he also said that if you go back and listen to what he said, he said one time, the minimum wage was already too high. which means he does not endorse raising the minimum wage to a living wage. we know that 54% of african-americans make less than the living wage and so, over and over again, he came to us today, he said we should right wrong, but he came to our state and endorsed the wrong and that is when the court said that our government and ledge legislature have engaged in racism. he said what the courts had done would increase voter fraud.

he said the party of lincoln, that is not the truth because their opposites since 1968, we've been the party of more strong dixie. so, to say one thing on the podium sand to do a different thing in public policy is tremendously hypocritical. >> thank you very much. we appreciate that response. i'm going to go quickly to mark thompson. your brief thoughts, mark. >> well, this is the definition of pandering. if no one has ever seen pandering, we've heard the word a lot. this is the definition of it. he offereded nothing concrete that he would do for the african-american community and in love lives within u why is he still associated with the likes of bannan and roger stone and alex jones. of these people in the alt right. why would he stand behind the african-american congregation and renounce the