why does trump stay mum? let's play "hardball." good evening. i'm chris matthews back in washington. five years ago, donald trump marched into national politics trumpeting the charge that the president of the united states might well be a usurper, that barack obama wasn't who he said he was, a natural-born american. trump has never given up his insistence on this critical point, demanding the president produce his birth certificate, raising in all manner of ways his public doubts that the man in the white house is truly one of us. well, now we are being told by his surrogates that trump has surrendered this argument, that

he now believes the president was born in the united states. here is former new york mayor rudy giuliani last night on "hardball." >> i confirm that and donald trump now confirms that. >> when did he do that? when did he do that? when did he do that? >> two years ago. three years ago. >> he has now accepted that birtherism was nonsense? when did he do that? >> chris, hillary clinton -- >> he did not do that yet. i'm waiting for him to do it. i want to know whether you believe your candidate for president believes he would succeed a legitimate president or not. does he believe he would succeed a legitimate president? >> donald trump believes now that he was born in the united states. but that issue -- >> when is he going to say it? >> that issue was raised originally -- >> when is he going to say this president is legitimate? this is a fundamental question, mr. mayor. is the president of the united states legitimate or not? do you believe it? if you believe it, why doesn't

your candidate state it? >> he believes it, i believe it, we all believe it. >> this morning kellyanne conway says her candidate now believes president obama was born here. >> the birther comment that we were just talking about, rudy giuliani goes on and says donald trump now will say that he believes that president obama was born in hawaii. he doesn't say it himself. why not? >> you have to ask him. >> why won't he come out and own that position, that yes, president obama was born here, i was wrong to go with the birthers? >> so he believes president obama was born here. i was born in camden, by the way, new jersey. he was born in hawaii. but the point is, what kind of president has he been. >> well, she couldn't answer that one. i understand why, because trump hasn't. starting in 2011, trump led the birther charge. let's watch trump's long history of questioning barack obama's legitimacy to be an american president. >> why doesn't he show his birth

certificate and you know what i wish he would, because i think it's a terrible pale that's hanging over him. >> nobody ever comes forward. nobody knows who he is until later in his life. it's very strange. >> he may have one but there's something on that birth certificate, maybe religion, maybe it says he's a muslim. i don't know. >> i have people that actually have been studying it and they cannot believe what they're finding. >> you have people now down there searching in hawaii? >> absolutely. and they cannot believe what they're finding. >> i still would like to see his college records. i would like to see a couple things. trump comes along and said birth certificate. he gave a birth certificate. whether or not that was a real certificate because a lot of people question it, i certainly question it. >> a few years ago, you led the birther movement. it turned out not to be true. >> according to you it's not true. i don't know. >> he released his birth certificate. >> if you believe that, that's fine. i don't care. it's an old subject. whether or not he did that, who knows. a lot of people don't agree with you on that, by the way.

>> despite rudy giuliani's claim that donald trump has turned his back on birtherism two or three years ago, the republican nominee has never publicly repudiated his past comments. i asked trump about it back in december and he refused to answer. here goes. is donald trump honest when he says that barack obama isn't a legitimate president? >> so -- >> it's a good question. >> i didn't say you couldn't. i didn't say you couldn't. >> you can't stop me. >> i should -- no, i can't. i should not tell you this but i do watch you a lot. i knew you were going to ask that question. i don't talk about that anymore. i don't answer because you know what, if i do answer that's all people want to talk about. >> we catholics believe in confession. you say you were wrong and move on. you really believe this guy's not a legitimate president? >> this week trump told nbc news when asked about the president's birthplace, again, i don't talk about it. he refused again on tuesday to change his tune when asked about bill o'reilly. let's watch. >> so you think your birther position has hurt you among

african-americans? >> i don't know. i have no idea. i don't even talk about it anymore. >> i know but it's there. it's on the record. >> i don't know. i guess with maybe some. i don't know why. i really don't know. but i don't think, you are the first one that's brought that up in awhile. i don't think so. >> so what evidence is there trump truly has given up on the birther conspiracy theory? i'm joined by nbc's katy tur outside trump tower in manhattan, msnbc's joy reid and congressman, a senior advisor to the trump campaign. what do you make of this? can you speak as rudy giuliani did last night, saying trump no longer believes in this nonsense that this president snuck in the country, that he's an illegitimate leader? >> well, chris, i hate to repeat a lot of what you already had, but the reality is this was started by hillary clinton. >> first of all, we are not going any further -- give me the evidence.

>> in 2008 -- >> where did she say this? >> i actually have seen the memo which is an interparty memo. >> where is it? >> i will absolutely get it to you. >> what is the memo? >> it said we need to question his -- >> who is this from? >> it's something from the clinton campaign. >> from the clinton campaign itself. and you have seen this. >> i have seen a copy of it. but let me -- >> no, no. you can't say hillary clinton is the mother of the birther movement without some evidence. you knew you were coming on this show. why didn't you bring it with you? >> i may even have it in my briefcase. i don't know. >> come on, this is a live show. we've got an hour. find it. i'm dead serious. if you can find it in your briefcase, something from the clinton campaign, not some blogger out there, but somebody who actually worked for hillary clinton under her direction who said the president wasn't born in this country, that would be news. if you can produce it. >> if i can see that, maybe the heading like the "c" has been removed from it as hillary has said. >> what?

what is this? what are we talking about? let's talk about fact and evidence. >> it was an allusion to classified material. >> give me evidence. let me get back to your candidate. is your candidate, donald trump, you are a senior adviser to him, does he believe the president of the united states is a legitimately elected leader of our country, yes or no? >> i'm going to quote rudy giuliani last night with an answer of yes. and that he is legitimate. >> how do you know he believes that? how do you know trump believes that? >> because he's not -- he's not focusing on this. he's focusing on jobs, focusing on education and safety. he's moved on. you know, it might be a hot topic in martha's vineyard where hillary clinton has been but on the streets of baton rouge -- >> that was a nice try. that was a nice try. i know why you're here. you got to defend rudy. you have taken the oath. joy, i was in philly yesterday with a nice audience of people trying to build the city's image up. it's something i really believe in. it was a mixed audience racially, ethnically, if you will.

there's a lot of people that care about this issue. when you say the president of the united states is a fraud, the first african-american president is a fraud, that he somehow snuck in this country from kenya or somewhere else and assumed an identity and somehow got himself elected under false pretenses, that's a hell of a slam job because i think i know why people do it so when they look at the faces of the presidents 20, 30 years from now, they won't really see obama there. he will have an asterisk next to his name because he snuck in. that's what rudy has been pushing. go ahead. your thoughts? >> absolutely. i think your guest there as well as rudy giuliani, first of all, giuliani put out two completely false statements, one of which you disproved with the montage claiming donald trump renounced birtherism three years ago. you showed him talking in december. so he has not denounced it. and what jack kingston just said inventing a memo in which the clinton campaign created the birther movement. the politifact article where they went through this

conspiracy theory, and they did that as of last year. you can look this up, it's easy, they debunk that particular theory as simply not true. >> when you talk about the belief in the birther movement and what it's done for donald trump, it's quite clear there is a substantial percentage of both republicans and specifically trump supporters who believe that barack obama is a fraud, -- is that morally right to do that to a president when you know it's not true? >> he is not doing that. >> he has spent -- >> there was a discussion, but he's moved on. >> let's go to katy tur. you're the great reporter covering this guy. why is he hiding, why is he staying mum? because in this case silence is not consent to this president's legitimacy.

he is mr. birther and now he's gotten to be mr. quiet. >> let me address something mr. kingston was saying, that's it's not an issue of this campaign. his supporters believe it's an issue when you ask them about president obama. not just a handful, not just a few. many of them -- >> that was not -- >> reporter: i'm there every day on the campaign trail. >> you probably have pushed. >> reporter: please don't interrupt me, sir. >> you can find -- >> reporter: let me tell you what donald trump supporters -- >> let katy report here. >> reporter: they often say that they believe that donald trump was born in kenya. they often say that they belief he's a muslim. some go onto say he's an undercover operative that has the interests of a foreign power. that being said, donald trump

has not backed away from this. let me finish this. donald trump has not backed away from this because he's never backed away from any statement on this campaign trail so far. we heard him say he regrets some of the things he's said during this campaign season, but he has never said what he regretted. i asked him last year where he stands on the birther movement right now. he's asked this last week. he said he doesn't want to get into it because he believes it's become an issue. it's become an issue regardless of it. >> let her finish. >> reporter: if he was asked about it again, he would come out and say he does not believe that donald trump was born overseas. he believes he was born in hawaii. when everybody has asked him this, he has refused to back down from it. as somebody who's been doing this now for 14 straight months,

going on 15 months now, and that is the same conversation that i've had with supporter after supporter in city after city in this country, every city i've been to, there have been people who have said exactly those words. >> and you want me to believe peop people come up to you unsolicited -- >> reporter: yes. you don't have to believe me. i'll telling you the facts -- >> omar mateen's dad who was -- is pro taliban, did he come rushing up to you also and say i'm for hillary -- >> that's a non se-- >> you're a surrogate, right, for trump? >> yes. >> do you believe the president's legitimate? >> yes. >> do you think that the president -- somebody running for president should admit that, anybody? forget the name trump. anybody. should they begin the campaign

by accepting the legitimacy of our political process, unless they have hard evidence to the contrary. trump never said he has hard evidence. he just says i have suspicions. did you watch those tapes we just showed here? he didn't have anybody working on this. >> why wasn't it asked the other night? now, it will be asked if it's the issue that katy and others -- >> there's no way in hell we're going through three hour and a half debates without this coming up again and again and you convince your guy to put it behind him. >> the people who have supported donald trump have seen their household income fall -- >> let me get back to why i think this matters. joy, i want you to pick up here, i believe every word you say because we're friends and i know what you think. when you go into the inner city in the african-american

community and you talked to people, you don't have to go polling this baby, you talk to people of either party, the minority republicans of the black community, and you talk to them about this president, there's pride in their eyes. the idea of saying that he's some kind of a thief in the night, he snuck in, his resumes are phony, he really didn't get these grades, he really didn't get blind selection as editor of the harvard law review, none of that happened. that's what trump does. none of this man's accomplishments are true. that's the point. >> chris, you can count right now on one hand the number of prominent african-american republicans who are coming forward and supporting donald trump. when i talk to black republicans who i know, none of the black republicans i know are in support of donald trump. the thing you'll hear them say the most, donald trump showed such utter, blatant disrespect

for the president of the united states. tried to humiliate him by dem d demanding he show his papers. question whether right to get into harvard law school. saying no one knows him from the past as if he emerged out of vapor. what donald trump -- >> i think you're right. >> -- was to de-americanize the first black president of the united states. donald trump had a choice at that time. he wasn't a candidate for anything. he made the choice to be a birther. he hasn't walked away from it. it is the main reason why he cannot attract significant support among african-americans among his other past racist acts including housing discrimination. >> let me say. >> go ahead. >> the most recent poll shows that he's at 8% of -- >> oh, congressman. congressman -- >> -- 4% -- john mccain got 4%.

mitt romney got less than 6%. >> without the other two candidates -- >> the best thing in the world for the preliminary system -- >> i promise you he won't do even that well with african-americans. >> thank you, katy tur. coming up, birtherism may be donald trump's original sin, but his continuing embrace of vladimir putin is baffling. trump went onto russian state television last night to praise putin and bash president obama and hillary clinton and the american media. that's ahead. this is "hardball," a place for politics. that might help. show me the carfax. now the car you want and the history you need are easy to find. show me used trucks with one owner. pretty cool. [laughs] ah... ahem...

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donald trump's appearance on the english language broadcast of state-owned russian television last night was met with disbelief. especially in light of trump's support of vladimir putin. so he goes on his tv network. it was launched as part of a public relations effort on the part of the kremlin. it's an important propaganda tool which insisted the world's air waves which have been biassed for pro-western programming for so long. moscow has poured millions into its budget and attracted professionals like larry king and conspiracy theorists. that's the "wall street journal" talking there. in king's interview, trump went as far to attack the free press here in this country on a state-owned russian tv network. imagine going after freedom of the press on a network that doesn't even believe in that. take a look.

>> one quick thing, what surprised you the most about running for office? >> well, i think the dishonesty of the media, the media has been unbelievably dishonest. they'll take a statement which you make which is perfect and they'll cut it up and chop it up and shorten it or len then it and all of a sudden it doesn't look at good as it did when you actually said it. >> trump also took the opportunity to defend russia from accusations of meddling in u.s. elections with cyber attacks. >> u.s. intelligence and law enforcement agencies are investigating whether russia launched a covert operation to disrupt the 2016 election. what do you make of that? >> i don't know. i mean, i've been hearing about it, i've been reading about it. i think it's probably unlikely. i think maybe -- maybe the

democrats are putting that out who knows. >> the trump campaign said it did not think the interview would be used on the network that larry king works for. >> he actually did an interview with larry king, a personal friend of his, and he said he was doing it for his podcast, doesn't know it was going to be on russian tv. >> how does something like that happen? that the campaign doesn't know it's going to be played an kremlin state tv. >> for his pod cast. when we return, i finish with my election diary and where the race stands. you're watching "hardball," the place for politics. 6 years now. my dog girlfriend is 17 years old. she's been eating dog chow from her very first day and she can still chase squirrels. she can't catch them, but she can still chase them. after 17 years i'm still confident in feeding her

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election diary friday september 9th. this is the week when the fight went to close engagement. hillary walked into a forum well prepared. she came in like she'd already

been through one of those law school murder boards. trump acted like he was about to face "fox and friends." think about the first debate. trump must know he's going to be bird dogged on the question of president obama's legitimacy. people have a right to know whether he accepts the current president as a legitimate one. after making a huge deal out of his birtherism, trump's silence can no longer be taken as consent. his accusation that barack obama snuck into this country still sticks out there. the fact that mike pence accepts obama as a legitimate president doesn't free the candidate himself from saying what his advocates are saying. this isn't a job for surrogates. as i said, the weekends with some pressure on trump to get this issue behind him. he may be able to do it by making a simple declaration, i

will no longer raise question about barack obama's two elections as president. but to do so, he'll have to say those words himself. coming up next, "your business" with j.j. ramberg. is it a caregiver determined to take care of her own? or is it a lifetime of work that blazes the path to your passions? your personal success takes a financial partner who values it as much as you do. learn more at tiaa.org i'm raph. my name is anne. i'm one of the real live attorneys you can talk to through legalzoom. don't let unanswered legal questions hold you up, because we're here, we're here, and we've got your back. legalzoom. legal help is here. legal help is here. ♪

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