you're there. sign out up for bloomberg politics's midday newsletter. it's called the brief and it has everything you need to know about the 2016 race each day. thanks for having me, guys. see you tomorrow. sayonara. >> "hardball" with chris matthews is next. this race is even. let's play "hardball." good evening. i'm chris matthews in washington. back in the saddle again. our friend is a friend -- well, kind of. hillary clinton made her first appearance back on the campaign trail today, after taking time off to rest up with her pneumonia. she's back facing new polls that snow the wind a to the back of her opponent, donald trump. they include a brand new "new york times"/cbs poll out today that has the race, catch this, 42-42. meanwhile, trump is re-gaining

ground in battleground states. he's up 2 in nevada. he's up 3 in both florida and in ohio. and he's up 8 in iowa. you might say trump himself is back today, taking time off from the teleprompter to hit back at colin powell. hit back at a pastor of a church in flynt, that stopped him talking politics in his church. and to put down hillary clinton for her health. the attack on powell came after some of his e-mails were hacked and released. powell said with trump, he would never overcome his birther past. he called trump a national disgrace. overnight trump tweeted, i was never a fan of colin powell after his weak understanding of weapons of mass destruction in iraq equalled a disaster. last night, trump knocked hillary clinton on her health. >> it is hot, and it's always hot when i perform, because the crowds are so big. these rooms were not designed for this kind of a crowd.

i don't know, folks. do you think hillary would be able to stand up here for an hour and do this? i don't know? i don't know. i don't think so. now we have one left and in all fairness, she's lying in bed getting better, and we want her better. we want her back on the trail, right? we want her back on the trail. >> well, as i said, trump mocked a pastor from a church in flynt, that he visited yesterday. the pastor had interrupted trump when he started criticizing hillary clinton in the church. >> hillary failed on the economy. just like she's failed on foreign policy. everything she touched didn't work out. nothing. now hillary clinton -- >> mr. trump, i invited you here to thank us for -- >> oh, oh, okay. >> not to give a political speech. >> okay, that's good. i'm going to go back -- >> well, that was tough. today, trump said that reverend, that was reverend faith green timmons, was a nervous mess. that's trump on her.

let's watch that. >> when she got up to introduce me, she was so nervous. she was shaking and i said, wow, this is sort of strange. and then she came up. so, she had that in mind. there's no question about it. and i'll tell you, the audience was fantastic, but she was so nervous. she was like a nervous mess. >> what was -- >> so i figured something was up, really. >> this afternoon, donald trump slammed -- or actually, hillary clinton slammed trump for what he said about that pastor. >> his latest target is a pastor in flynt, michigan, who respectfully asked him not to use her pulpit for political attacks. he called her a nervous mess. that's not only insulting, it's dead wrong. reverend faith green timmons is not a nervous mess. she's a rock for her community in trying times, she deserves better than that. and flynt zerves better.

in fact, so does america. >> well, none of this, of course, is likely to surprise or certainly disturb the voter now looking to vote for trump. perhaps it will actually remind him of his brand. well, fact is that the country right now is divided with trump on one side of what is today, september 15th, an equal divide. joining me right now to talk about that, "the washington post" robert costa, former rnc national committee chair, michael steele, and jane newton small. so trump seems to go back and forth between a teleprompter and being donald trump. what brought him back to being trump today? because hillary's back? >> i was with trump all day yesterday in flynt, michigan, and canton, ohio, and i got the sense shadowing him for about ten hours that this is a candidate that's very optimistic about the polls and is going with his gut. it's his instincts right now running this campaign. steve bannon and kellyanne conway, of course, around him. but this is a candidate driving his own ship, driving his own car. >> do you have a sense that has he thinks these polls are trend? because i heard about that today

listening to the other discussions on other programs. i keep saying, when is a blip on the screen a cycle? when does it become a trend? something that's moving in one direction, unless stopped? >> well, i said to trump, chris, as he was looking over all of these polls on his plane, they were piling up, and he reviews them very carefully. i said, well, some of the polls show you are up nationally and in swing at a times. and he looked at me incredulous, and he said, some? some? all of them are up. so he's very confident as he looks at the data. we'll see if it lasts. he thinks part of the reason is the comment by secretary clinton about trump supporters being deplorable. >> okay. let's go about -- let's talk about that with michael steele and jane newton small. with these polls, "the new york times" -- "the new york times"/cbs poll, which closed yesterday, i believe, that's been -- that's barely covered the whole weekend. so it certainly went as late as tuesday night. that does cover the period of people, we were all blabbing about that. do you think that was a changer? >> i think it did? >> deplorables? move people to trump column ?

>> i think the combination of the deplorable, and of course, the general feel around the campaign, the clinton campaign, people are sensitive to that. it's funny, you get beyond labor day and the dynamics in the races change. people get more connected to it. reporters can tell you on the ground that, you know, there's a different kind of energy. and the voters are more sensitive. they pick up stuff. they don't -- they may not articulate it directly, but that is a sense, there's something not quite right. >> that's like me in the nba. i get to decide who i like, who i'm rooting for, the individual players. >> and the regular season is too darned long. it's 82 games. anyway, your thoughts about this. is there something that makes this more grabable. that they actually might move now? >> i think there's definitely a feeling of people definitely paying attention. but there's a huge group of the silent majority, the

independents are finally sort of now really paying attention. but i have to disagree a little bit with you, mr. steele, in the sense that, i think what hurt hillary more was the fainting spell, was the pneumonia, was sort of covering up, it's all the things that people don't like about the clintons, was this sense of not being honest, not being forthright, of sort of hiding things. >> she blamed that -- i'm not going to be critical, but just factually, she blamed that on her staff, saying they weren't quick enough, but the staff is trained by her. they know what they're supposed to -- i've always said in politics, never, ever blame staff people. because everything comes from the top. they're taught how to behave -- >> it stops here. >> it's the way it works. anyway, secretary clinton used her first appearance on the trail today to slam donald trump as a loose cannon. i thought she worked very well today coming back from a -- by the way, she's not back from pneumonia, she's got it. and i thought she performed really well and strong, and i thought gutsy today. let's watch. >> people accuse me of all kinds of things. you probably have seen that.

but nobody ever accuses me of quitting. and i will never give up. i'll never walk away. no matter how tough the going gets. i'm actually asking americans to hold me accountable for my ideas. and hold my opponent accountable for his. are we going to bring people together or pit americans against each other and rip our country apart. are we going to work with our allies to keep us safe or are we going to put a loose cannon in charge, who would risk everything, generations of americans have worked so hard to build? >> i think hillary clinton is shaping the battlefield. she's setting it up, going into this debate, to be the kind of debate that she would like to win, and she should win. preparation, seriousness, no pizazz, no showing off, no wild, crazy stuff.

simple, i know my stuff, this guy's not ready, at all, never will be. >> and if you're talking about substance, then she absolutely wins. wherever we talk about substantiative things, hillary does better in the polls than donald trump. >> can she shape the way we look at this debate? >> i don't think the deplorable thing actually hurt her. i have this group of independent women i've been following the entire campaign from the various states that i've traveled to, and the independent women that i've been speaking to have said, that they actually -- this is a debate they're having amongst themselves. is it really -- am i deplorable person? am i in that basket of voters that are racist and sexist and xenophobic, if i vote for trump? >> what's worse, being in a basket or binder? where do they get these metaphors from? people don't fit in baskets or binders. why'd they say basket -- i never thought of people in a bactersk. roses are in a basket. >> that's the debate clinton wants people to have. >> this is the problem. i take your point and i see where you're going, chris -- >> you do? >> i do see where you're going. >> i'm not sure i do. i'm trying to figure this thing

out. >> here's the rub. here's the thing. she's setting this up. you know, hold me accountable for my ideas. well, this isn't that election. it has not been this election. it has -- this is -- no one is -- >> what is the debate going to be about. >> the debate is about actions. you'll be held accountable for your actions. that is her problem. it's a problem with the way her staff and she handle what happened on friday and sunday. it is the words that she has used to describe the american people. similarly for donald trump, but here is the rub that really rubs them the wrong less of a price than she does. >> that's called the curve. >> that's called the curve. >> i was saying to all of you, i guess i can go back to robert now, i think the hillary people are plainly -- as brian said today, what's his last name? >> fallon. >> fallon. brian fallon. brian fallon said today, we don't want to be jubdged on a curve. i think that's what's going on

here. i think most people will judge us on a curve. if donald trump comes out there and is calm and serious and matches her point by point, people will say, he won. that could happen. i'm just saying, i think that's what the clinton people are deadly afraid of. an even match, he wins. >> trump's told me he's not doing formal debate prep, as we know. >> why? >> roger ailes is playing a role, not a formal role, in getting trump ready for the debates. trump said ailes is walking him through the history of debates, how former candidates, people he's worked, nixon and others have handled the these debates. and one thing trump's working for is, does clinton attack him? he said he's ready to be the statesmen if that's the tone of the debate. he's also ready to be the attack dog. it will be interesting to see how clinton handles him. does she bait him, bring him out, or keep hip on a different level. >> well, donald trump jr., a top surrogate for his father was interviewed on a local philadelphia radio station today. he made this point about how the media treats his father versus how thaw treat hillary clinton. let's watch. >> and the media has been her

number one surrogate in this. without the media, this wouldn't even be a contest. but the media has built her up, they've let her slide on every indiscrepancy, on every lie, on every dnc, you know, game, trying to get bernie sanders out of the thing if republicans were doing that, with they would be warming up the gas chamber right now. >> that's donald trump junior. he said he was referring in that case to the capital punishment. he said he's made similar comments in the past, but normally uses the phrase the electric chair. here he was in july. >> if republicans did that, it would be disgusting and that's what you'll see in a clinton administration. this sort of divisiveness has to stop. they should be ashamed of themselves. and if we did that, if the rnc did that, if my father's campaign did that, with they would be calling for people to get the electric chair. >> any comment on that, anybody? >> i think, first of all, calling the media -- it's like appealing to the refs at this point, it's totally useless. they've actually benefited --

donald trump has benefited from almost $2 billion of free media. he is essentially a beast of cable. and like of reality tv. so, to say that she's somehow benefited more than he has is sort of crazy. >> i want to go back to something you were talking about a emt mo amoment ago. we hear that he's at least studying the history of debates with an expert, roger ailes, the trick in winning a presidential debate, we'll be talking about a lot of this later on the show, we'll look at this with people who have studied this. the winner of most debates is not somebody who comes in there loaded for bear and makes an attack on the other person. they're the president or ronald reagan who comes on and waits for his opponent to take a predictable shot at him or her in this case, and retorts. because the public always respects and roots for the person who's defending himself. so, jimmy carter, quite appropriately went after reagan for being opposed to medicare when it came out, and it was a debated point back in the '60s.

and reagan said, there you go again. that "there you go again" line wasn't accurate, but it was a great way of saying, we're tired of you, president carter. we're tired of you clinging to office. this is so true. of course, lloyd benson, "you're no jack kennedy." respond to the charge, and people say, yeah, yeah, we're with that guy. so how does trump get hillary to attack him? or does he say, hillary just has to say to donald trump, well usually you address me not as madame secretary, but as crooked hillary, and then she can respond to that. it seems to me they ought to seset it up like in basketball, you call the foul. then people are rooting for you. your thoughts on that, everybody. isn't that what you're looking at in preparation for these debates, to attack from a defensive position and hit them when they hit you. >> and one of the things trump has said to me, as a former producer, host of reality show, he understands the theatrics of television. it's not about winning on points throughout the whole hour and a half, it's sometimes about the theater and maybe even one or two lines. >> i agree with you.

jay? the bite we replay infinitum afterwards. >> i think the khans highlighted the weakness with donald trump, if you get under his skin and insult him and dig at that, he cannot let it go. >> so hillary will try to hook him into some kind of angry retort. >> i noticed you were overnight the other night, donald, is that bothering you? >> here's the problem, with he knows that and he understands that sensibility. and her problem will be, when he comes back. so take your example, well, you know, you said this, and he comes back, you know, you used to call he crooked hillary, and now you're calling me secretary of state, well, that's because you are crooked. that's the danger here. >> i love it. i love the game. even though the stakes are the future of this country in the world in many ways, it is a contest. >> it is. >> and there's going to be a winner. >> there will be. >> and record viewers. >> and ronald reagan proved that, with the help of roger

ailes. >> yep. >> i won't use my opponent's youth and immaturity against him. it shouldn't have meant anything. it meant everything. >> it defined the race. >> robert costa, thank, sir, for the reporting. michael steele and jay newton small. coming up, a divided america. new polling from virginia shows that trump supporters don't really know any clinton voters if same is true for clinton voters. they don't even know any trump supporters. how'd this country get so starkly divided? people don't know each other anymore. plus, another day, another excuse for the trump campaign about why donald trump won't, don't say can't, won't release his taxes. today his son said it's because doing so would cause too much of a distraction. wait, i thought trump said he couldn't release because he was under audit. you mean it's up to him? we'll get to that. there's a lot of contradiction coming out of that camp. and the hardest "hardball" roundtable will be here. and three things i don't know. we'll be right there as this race has gotten as tight as a what? a drum. and my election diary on where this race stands today, september 15th. mid-september, we're already

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plus $500 bonus cash. we've got some more new polling, new polling on the presidential race. for that, we check the "hardball" scoreboard. first to virginia where hillary clinton's lead is now three points up from donald trump. this is the way of o doing it among likely voters. from a new poll in washington, clinton, 40, trump, 37, gary johnson, 8. not enough to make the debates. next, to georgia. according to a new poll from fox 5 down in atlanta, trump leads clinton by four points. trump, 46 in that state, clinton, 42. johnson up to 10. we'll be right back. my lenses have a sunset mode.

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welcome back to "hardball." the commonwealth of virginia used to be a reliable republican state, a commonwealth, of course, until barack obama captured his 13 electoral votes in 2008 and then again, obama won virginia again in 2012.

well, obama turned virginia into a purple battleground, but as "the washington post" reports today, voters there are divided far beyond expected. the latest virginia poll shows that hillary clinton has a three-point lead down there. but that's not the whole story. that recent survey of virginians say that many voters seem entirely isolated from one another, living in their own bubbles in political agreement, even in an increasingly diverse commonwealth. 60% of clinton voters in virginia say they do not have close friends or family members who support trump. three out of five don't know anybody close to them who are for the other side. 54% of trump voters don't have a family member or close friend who supports clinton. why is there so much isolation between supporters of the two major political parties. cornell bellster and john furerer. my dad had a friend, middle income guys, went to church

together, went to the bakery, never discussed politics. but today you go around looking for people who agree with you and invite them to supper. >> i think we are becoming more ideologically segregated. i think some of this started with me white flight out of the urban areas. when you look at virginia, the state we were talking about right now, you have three pockets of plu. northern virginia, around richmond, and around the tightworth. >> some of that's because of ethnicity, because of race, but a lot of it is single women who live in alexandria and arlington. they work in washington, a bedroom community, they are all pro-choice and democrats. >> but i think social media p y plays a part in this. the more social media is a vehicle for communication, they don't have to listen to you anymore, chris. they can go on to the social media site and listen to people that are like-minded. >> this is -- >> but think also can watch me. >> i hope they're watching you. >> not necessarily a new phenomenon.

i remember pauline cale said she didn't know anybody that voted for richard nixon in 1968. >> how is that possible? three quarters geographically of pennsylvania you could walk through and not know anybody who's a clinton supporter. but then you go to philly or pittsburgh or penn state, up into center county, it's all hillary. i would say in the republican party, it's a little bit more interesting a phenomenon. and that is it breaks down by gender. women do not like donald trump and men do. and that's the problem at the dinner table. people aren't talking politics anymore, because they don't want to get in a big family fight. the other thing that's interesting is more educated voters are really trending against donald trump and that's a problem. >> let's look at the aspects of voting. this this evening about gun ownership, you know, if you have a friend who's gay orle lesbian of course, you don't always know. different attitudes towards hybrid cars.

71% of trump supporters live in gun-owning households. i love that, the household doesn't own the gun, but you do. but just 35% of clinton supporters live in a house where there's gun. 74% of clinton supporters have a cl close friend or family member who is known to be gay orless bean. 49% of trump. there's a big difference there. >> by the way, i think that number's wrong. i'm going to guess they know more gay people than they think they know. >> i think it's a question of recognition. and 40% of clinton supporters have a friend or family member who drives a hybrid. 26% of -- no smart cars tonight right wing these days, like my wife's. what do you think of that? this isn't male versus female -- >> i think you could have seen the same thing with mitt romney and hillary clinton. i think the fact is, what happened with the democratic party is it became much more diverse -- >> are you in one of these new nothing new under the sun now pele? every time you bring a topic up, you say, it's like everything else. >> i think it's worse than ever, because i think -- let me tell you, from the progressive side,

a lot of people hang out with socially, they really, really don't like trump. they really -- it's not like they're arguing about mitt romney's being uncool or too conservative or too big business. they really don't like the guy. i think it's different than it used to be. >> but i think you have two visceral sort of reactions on the right. i would make the argument there's a visceral reaction to president obama that we hadn't seen before. and i -- >> is that worse than hillary? the reaction to hillary? >> i think -- they hate hillary! but, no, you didn't have, he's hitler, he's a fascist, he is not even american, which is something you talk a lot about. no one says hillary's not american. and right now, i think you do see that same sort of visceral dislike of trump on the -- >> i think it's very personal. and i think it's counterintuitive. and i think we'll get a lot of voters going into that booth saying, we have to vote. we have to vote. we'll get some surprises in that. they'll have to decide. >> i think this race gets closer when those college-educated republicans come back home to

them. that's the question, are they going to come back home? >> and you see trump doing that, offering some policy proposals that are not -- >> i want to learn something from you. did the white people that go back, move back to the big cities. a lot of people love moving downtown, when the kids are gone, empty nesters. are they more likely the liberals? i think they are? >> they are. the pew study that was done a year or so ago found that 77% of liberals actually want to be in smaller houses, that are closer to stores and shops. 77 or 78% of conservatives want to be in larger houses that are -- >> they're not always. and i think that's changing. a lot of conservatives are moving back into big cities because they're walking around. >> not according to the statistics. cornell belcher, john fieri, you're the loan conservative on the tough block. up next, donald trump outlined his economic plan today, but how do the numbers sound? this is going to be great. we're checking out what trump is promising. 4% growth rate a year.

we've never seen it. maybe we won't. the trump campaign has two more alibis for not releasing their tax returns. they keep comg up with new reasons not to do what they said they wanted. this is "hardball," the place for politics. wait. data just changed... now she's into disc sports. ah, no she's not. since when? since now. she's into tai chi. she found disc sports too stressful. hold on. let me ask you this... what's she gonna like six months from now? who do we have on aerial karate? steve. steve. steve. and alexis. uh, no. just steve. just steve. just steve. live business, powered by sap. when you run live, you run simple. hey the, starting your search for the ri am!used car? you got it. just say show me millions of used cars for sale at the all new carfax.com. but, i don' want one that's had a bunch of owners just say, show me cars with only one owner pretty cool it's perfect.

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law enforcement officials tell nbc news the suspect identified seemed to be in the process of committing a non-violent crime when the he attacked the officers. the fbi is sending agents from the joint terrorism task force as a precaution. back to "hardball." where . it's time to start thinking big, once again. that's why i believe it's time to establish a national goal of reaching 4% economic growth. my great economists don't want me to say this, but i think we can do better than that. now they're upset. they'll be very upset, but i think we can do it maybe substantially better than that. >> welcome back to "hardball." that was donald trump today outlining his economic plans, saying against the advice of his own economists, that his policies can achieve 4% growth

in the american economy, a rate that's more than double the 21st century average. trump's plan includes a $4.4 trillion tax cut that slashes business taxes by more than half, that he says he can do without increasing the deficit. trump also billed the plan as a new policy of americanism, saying its foundation is trade, which begins with re-negotiating or terminating nafta, for example. he also attacked hillary clinton, saying her policies favor foreign countries over the american middle class. >> in hillary clinton's america, she has surrendered our status as the world's great economy and we have surrendered our middle class to the whims of foreign countries. the only thing she can offer is a welfare check. >> well, this comes as the census bureau reports that 2015 was the best year of economic improvement in decades, when it comes to middle class incomes.

a cnn opinion research poll last week also found that 53% of americans say that economic conditions in this country are good. that's surprisingly upbeat. an uptick of eight percentage points until june of this summer. joining me right now is robert reich, and larry ckudlow, and te author of a new book, "jfk and the reagan revolution." i want to talk to you about optimism. can we have a 4% growth rate? my god, that would create so much economic activity in the country above the average. lawrence, do you believe that? >> absolutely. i'm one of the lesser economists in the trmp group that pushed for 4 to 5% economic growth. i'm a jfk tax cutter, a ronald reagan tax cutter. that's what our book is about. those guys had 4 to 5% growth. when bill clinton finally settled in and cup the cap gains tax and had some free trade, he got himself 4 to 5% growth. be the right policy, it can absolutely be done. and last thought, trump is

focusing on a massive business tax cut, which you correctly described. i think that's exactly where he should go. that will pick up jobs and wages and productivity and business investment, all of which, by the way, are slumping. >> robert, let me ask you, first of all, when jack kennedy was president, he went into office and left office with about a 90% personal income tax rate. and he wanted to bring it down to 65%. these ranges are different than where we are right now, in the mid-30s, going down below that for trump. but let me ask you, how do you put together a low-tax policy with deficits, of course, with a trade policy, which is basically protectionist. what happens when you do both? they whack against each other? >> i have absolutely no idea how you can do that. i have never heard of isolationism, kind of smoot/holly isolationism, in terms of withdrawing from the global market, at the same time, you are cutting taxes mostly on the wealthy, and this is old

trip trickle-down exhibition, at the same time, embarking on a huge military buildup. how do you do th? and at the same time, how do you get 25 million jobs and growth out of this? this is wishful thinking beyond wishful thinking. this is fairy land. >> let's go to the two questions you raised there. deficits and, of course, this problem of trade. if you go to protectionism, you're basically raising taxes on imports. you may be a little more discretionary about it, but you're raising taxes. >> absolutely. larry kudlow, are you a -- i thought you were a free trader. what happened to you? >> i am. i am a free trader. >> what's trump. >> i have my disagreements on certain things. he's right about enforcing deals, and i think he's also right about staying away from the pacific deal. >> but jack kennedy was a free trader. >> thank you for that. my great, chris matthews, is down through the years, i cannot convince my very good friend, robert reich, that lower tax rates create incentives and rewards to grow the economy.

>> the reason you you can didn't -- the reason you can't ksh. >> i love the guy, but he's never understood the growth model. >> can i just say something? larry kudlow, the reason you haven't been able to convince me is because trickle-down -- nothing is trickle-down. we've been trying, every time we've had a republican administration, starting the ronald reagan, we tried trickle-down economics. and what happened to the middle class? i mean, median wages, median household income has almost gone nowhere with regard to big tax cuts at the top. how can you keep, after all these years of believing this stuff? i mean -- >> look it. >> it's just going to create more deficits. >> let's take a look at the most recent republican president, george w. bush, who took us into a war we can argue about forever, and we will, and he also pushed right off the bat, a big tax cut. that left us with what happened in 2008. and i don't understand why you would brag about such a record. it brought us into -- barack obama to the presidency

probably. >> i probably don't disagree with you on the war. but bush had very small tax cuts and they were delayed and that didn't really work. the dollar crashed, which kennedy disapproved of and so did reagan. w. didn't get it. and i understand that, but it didn't work. under kennedy and under reagan, robert reich, incomes rose substantially. the problem is, under bush and under obama, i'm going to be bipartisan about this. under bush and bobama -- >> kennedy got his tax cut through. he didn't have a tax cut record. >> there were no real wage increases since the year 2000, okay? that's a fact. i'm glad in 2015, incomes did better. that's great. but they're still lower than they were at the peak of the last economy. not since 2000. this has to be changed. this is why america is in a bad mood. >> let me ask robert. robert, can you get in here. how does hillary clinton, who i soup you support, how does she get the economy operating at a stronger level? >> the way she does it is the

way we did it under the first clinton administration, that is public investment. you've got to have good education, world-class education, infrastructure, an infrastructure that is not crumbling, you have to have research and development, innovate, and make sure our companies have the capacity to innovate. this is not rocket science. we did it and that is what hillary clinton wants to do again and provide additional child care and make it easier -- >> jack kennedy's infrastructure program was defense and space and he got the government to spend money -- >> that's right -- >> i knew i could appeal to you on this jfk argument. you're exactly right. look, obama tried the massive government stimulus and it didn't work. that's why this is the worst recovery since world war ii -- >> well, it got us here. >> the trouble with mrs. clinton, she doesn't a tax cut plan, she doesn't have a corporate tax reform plan. she's basically saying, she's going to raise taxes across the board and that's going to put us into recovery.

and i defy anybody to argue with that. >> the trouble is that your crowd put us in the dumpster, and now you're complaining it's taking too long to get out of the dumpster. >> we've been in the dumpster under both crowds for 15 years. >> we've got to go. this is just -- >> i want to say one quick thing. chris, you were talking about liberals and democrats not having anybody who they know and like who is a trump supporter. i like larry kudlow and i don't understand why he's a trump supporter. >> robert reich, i like you too, as always, my friend. >> it's not the dating game, it's "hardball." thank you so much, robert reich and larry kudlow. just kidding. up next, the trump campaign has another reason now why donald trump isn't releasing his tax returns. his son said it would distract from his father's message. you're watching "hardball," the place for politics. safety doesn't come in a box. it's not a banner that goes on a wall. it's not something you do now and then. or when it's convenient.

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i released mine.

i think we should release hers. i'll leave it to him when to do it. >> welcome back to "hardball." that was paul ryan, the speaker of the house, calling on donald trump to release his tax returns. for months, the press and fellow republicans have asked trump to do the same thing. the quinnipiac poll out today shows that 75% of americans agree that trump should publicly release his tax returns. 60%, three out of five republicans say the same thing, release the returns. so far what trump has done, is release a number of excuses for why he won't. yesterday he told fox news that he would release his taxes immediately, but only if hillary clinton released her e-mails. let's watch him. >> she has 33,000 e-mails that she deleted. when is she going to release her e-mails? she probably knows how to find it. let her release her e-mails and i'll release my tax returns medium. >> and this week, kellyanne conway, his new campaign manager, said she doubted that he would make public his charitable contributions. listen. >> part of why people are calling for him to release his

taxes is so we do know how much he has given to charity. will you or the campaign release exactly what that number is? and the reason i ask -- >> i doubt it. >> why would you doubt it? >> i doubt it, because, this is like badgering. in other words, i don't see it as journalism, i see it as badgeri badgerism. >> finally, donald trump jr. seemed to put the kibosh on his father releasing his tax returns because of this. >> he has a 12,000 page tax return. that would create probably 300 million independent financial auditors out of every person in the country asking questions that are going to distract from his main message. >> right now i'm joined by our roundtable, john stanton, he's in the middle, washington bureau chief for buzzfeed, colleen mccain, correspondent for the "wall street journal," and sabrina siddiqui, political reporter for "the guardian." this is a mound of growing alibis. first of all, he says he's under audit, so he can't do it. but then he says he can do it, but he's only going to do it if she releases her e-mails. then the son comes along, donald

trump jr., and says, well it would distract from dad's message. here's the contradiction, he says he can't do it, then says he won't do it. why does he keep saying he'll do it if something else says he's under audit. >> the question is not whether or not it will distract from his message, but if it undercuts one of the central themes of his campaign, by pointing to the weighing in which executives have skirted tax reform. so is it possible that donald trump is exploiting the same loopholes -- >> is he right politically to hide them? >> it could become an issue. it could become untenable for mitt romney. it did. so far, he's able too get away with it. >> bernie sanders got away with it. much lower income. he got away wit. >> but that may not be what he's really worried about. he came out and said, i took advantage of lobbying and giving money to politicians to get them to give me what i wanted and now i'm here to change the system. but of course, i took advantage of it. if he shows up -- >> where would that show up in his tax returns? >> it it shows up because of loopholes, not paying any taxes.

>> of course, you know he does that! >> as a good american, i'm take v advantage of the rules and now i'm here to change them. but if it show he's not giving money tulo all these charities claims he's giving to, that could hurt him. >> exaggerating. >> the other argument is he's afraid to show he's not as rich as he says he is. >> and that's just the ego argument. and that's probably the best-case scenario. >> the little hands thing. it's like the little hands thing. >> right. exactly. >> it means something to him. >> but he managed to get away with this for a long time. in part because he was so many controversial things. we were focused on whatever controversial thing he said the last time. and now that he's using a teleprompter, we have time -- >> the guy is stubborn. robert costa has a report, he asked him, basically, was the president born in this country and trump refuses to take back birtherism, which bothers so many people, not just

african-americans. the statement that the president we have right now is somehow illegitimate. >> that's such a core part of his following. that's how he built himself to be where he is, by seizing on all of these supporters of his, who do not believe that this president was born in the united states. and that's not something he's going to give up. and we know that donald trump doesn't take statements back. the one time he expressed so-called regret, he refused to specify which one of the dozens of comments he's made that are controversial was the one he was expressing regret for and he didn't apologize for anything in the course of this campaign. >> so do we first release his tax returns or admit that barack obama is american? >> his head will explode before either of those two. >> earlier this week, barack obama questioned why donald trump hasn't released his tax returns. >> he calls himself a business guy, but america's got a lot of businessmen and women who succeeded without hiding their tax returns or leaving a trail of lawsuits or workers who

didn't get paid. people feeling like they got cheated. >> he's got a whole style of irony here, that definitely works. it worked in philly, because philly thinks like that. they love this stuff up there. >> and obama also talked about why trump has been able to kind of get away with this. >> hiding's a good word. >> and he said, you know, in politics, voters are restless and they're attracted to the new, shiny object. and obama said he benefited from that in 2008 and trump is benefiting from that now. and also, trump is running this whole campaign based on upending the rules and just kind of throwing out all the rules, not just on transparency -- >> nick kristof today in "the new york times," he's a liberal guy, smart, progressive guy. he said, why does trump get the credit, get the problems for being honest, more than hillary. how can that be? he says, look at all the facts. there's no argument that trump's more honest than hillary. >> i think there's a -- you were pointing to the president's speech. he actually went on a tear about this issue because of the double standards he believes the media are applying to these two candidates, where anytime

there's any negative press about hillary, even if it's deserved, it brings up notions about trust and transparency. when donald trump has defied all the rule, and i think it is incumbent on the media, where david fahrenthold has done great work about his charitable giving, and the media needs to press him on that. >> he also just doesn't care what anybody thinks. that's the problem. democrats always seem to care, particularly mihillary and thes people around her. they get super secretive and i think that translates into some people's minds as honest. straightforwardness. >> honest because he won't respond to any reasonable criticism. the roundtable is staying with us. this is "hardball," the plax.

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they automatically shrinkn itemthe pricesjet carts, of millions of other products. very impressive. whew... it's got a little kick to it. at jet.com, we're always looking for money saving innovations. well, donald trump is jimmy fall fallon's guest tonight on "the tonight show" and here's a preview. >> can i mess your hair up? i'll be gentle. i'll be gentle. >> as long -- the answer is yes, but the people of new hampshire where i'm going to be in about an hour from now, i hope they're going to understand, okay? >> you said yes? >> go ahead.

>> yes! donald trump, everybody. i'll do it as well. donald trump, everybody. >> that's why donald trump is what he is and that's certainly why jimmy fallon is who he is. catch "the tonight show" on your local nbc station tonight usually around 11:30. we'll be right back after this. he's not a war hero, he's a war hero because he was captured. i like people that weren't captured ok. donald trump compared his sacrifices to the sacrifices of two parents who lost their son in war. how would you answer that father? what sacrifice have you made for your country? i think i've made a lot of sacrifices, built great structures. i've had tremendous success, i think... those are sacrifices?

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exxonmobil is a leader in carbon capture. our team is working to make this technology better, more affordable so it can reduce emissions around the world. that's what we're working on right now. ♪ energy lives here. as you can see on our separate screen there, president obama is on stage at the congressional hispanic congress institute gala down here in washington. hillary clinton is also expected to speak there. let's listen to the president. >> now, i've got to admit that i'm having trouble accepting that this is my final trip here as president. but on the bright side, michelle is not having trouble accepting it. i love you, too, but it is hard

to believe it was eight years ago i came here as a candidate for this office, and i had no gray hair. i said that we could create opportunity not just for those at the very top, but for everybody who's willing to work hard. so they could afford health care and college and retirement and give their kids a better life. what senator palin called that ho hopey-changey stuff. well, tonight i'm back here as president to say thank you. thank you for your support. thank you for your friendship. thank you for your tireless efforts to deliver on that promise. because for all the places that we've fallen short, and for all the work that remains to be done, i am back here tonight more optimistic about the future

of america than i have ever been. and why not? together, we fought our way back from the worst recession in 80 years. we turned around an economic freefall. we helped lift our auto industry to set new records. our businesses created more than 15 million new jobs. together, we declared health care is not a privilege for a few, but a right for everybody. and we have secured health insurance for another 20 million americans including 4 million hispanic-americans. our high school graduation rate is at an all-time high. more hispanic students are graduating high school and college than ever before. we strengthened our relationship with mexico and central america. and opened up a new chapter with the people of cuba.

we brought nearly 200 nations together around a climate agreement that could save our planet. we affirmed that love has no limit s and marriage equality i now the law of the land. just this week, we discovered how much our efforts are starting to pay off in ways that really matter to american families. thanks, obama. we learns that last year across every race, every age group in america, incomes rose and poverty fell. the typical household income grew by about $2,800 which is the single biggest one-year increase on record. we lifted 3.5 million people out

of poverty. the largest one-year drop since 1968. the number of americans without health insurance continues to fall and in each of these areas, latino americans made some of the largest gains. the fastest income growth. the biggest drop in the poverty rate. the greatest gains in insurance coverage. that's why all in all, hispanic families are feeling more optimistic about their prospects today than they did eight years ago. by so many measures, our country's stronger and more prosperous than it was when we started this journey together. and we couldn't have done it without the congressional h hispanic caucus who has been with me every step of the way. now, none of this was easy. there was some tough years in there. you had fiscal showdowns and government shutdowns and

pandemics and oil spills and pirates. you all remember the pirates? i mean, the only thing we haven't had to deal with is, like, the asteroid or aliens. that's true, good point. >> that's president obama at the congressional hispanic congress institute. hillary clinton will be speaking there in just a few minutes. anyway, time now for my election diary. thursday september 15th 2016. so in mid-september, this wild and woolly campaign went to a dead even heat. clinton 42% in a new cbs/"new york times" poll, donald trump at 42%. it went to dead even on the same day that hillary clinton came back on the campaign trail trying for a second time to power through her pneumonia. the same day that donald trump some say reverted to being more trump, less teleprompter taking a swing at the flint, michigan, pastor who told him to take his politicking outside and came on the same day the "washington post" used a survey to show how

hillary clinton and trump people live in distance worlds to each other. check the date. here we are. the united states, anything but a country divided, a people divided between a well-known figure of the center left, that would be hillary clinton, and a well-known figure of business and reality tv whose outsider positioning of himself defines his politics. a neat choice, many would say, between what many would call a contest between the too familiar and the too bizarre. that's "hardball" for now. thanks for being with us. "all in with chris hayes" starts right now. good evening, everyone, from new york, i'm joy reid in for chris hayes. i'm going to rejoin the president who's speaking at the congressional hispanic congress institute annual gala. take a listen. >> the madness of gun violence, and, yes, we've got to finally make meaningful, effective immigration reform a reality in this country. now, i'm proud