today, bragging about using other people's money on the day the "washington post" is out with a blistering new report on just what he does with other people's donations to his charity. vice president candidate mike pence. hillary clinton with an eye toward the polls and preparing for the first big debate now just five days away. "the 11th hour" begins now. good evening from our headquarters here in new york. 48 days until america chooses its next president, and with this campaign in its 11th hour, the polls tighter and tighter, team clinton has admitted they're looking to the state of north carolina as a firewall, but it was donald trump who campaigned in that battleground state today beginning with a lunchtime rally at high point university.

four hours later, trump held a second rally in keenensville, north carolina. listen to the notable phrase he used. >> we're going to get the gulf states to pay for safe zones. we'll leave the project like it's called opm. i do that all the time in business. it's called other people's money. there's nothing like doing things with other people's money because it takes the risk. you get a big chunk of it and it takes the risk. we're going to do it in this case from a humanitarian standpoint. opm, other people's money. >> as you heard, trump there was talking about the gulf states, but that bit about other people's money is made even more interesting because of the headline today in the "washington post." quote, trump used $258,000 from his charity to settle legal problems. in a moment we'll be speaking with trump running mate mike pence, including his reaction to the story. but first the author of the story in today's "washington

post," david farenthal is with us tonight from washington. we should start with a disclosure about our parent company universal which made a half million dollar donation to the trump foundation years ago. david, first off, what does your story allege the foundation did, and is it illegal? >> we looked at a couple cases where trump seemed to use the where trump seemed to use the foundation, which is money from other people, not money from himself, he used that charity to pay off essentially legal settlements that trump's businesses had entered into. in two cases, trump's businesses were in a legal dispute. they settled the legal dispute promising that they, the businesses, would fund the charity, but it seems the trump foundation paid the charity in place of the businesses. >> you're free to read the story on the website. the brief version how it is that a flagpole was involved in the trump foundation. >> in 2006, at trump's mar-a-lago club, he put up

allege 80-foot flagpole, and it was 30 feet too tall for the town fathers of palm beach, so he got hit with code violations. eventually trump had about $120,000 of unpaid fines from the town against his club. he sued them saying you don't need a permit to put up an american flag. the end result, the town said, fine, we'll waive the fines against your club, but the club in turn has to make a $100,000 donation to a specific charity, a veterans charity. it turned out when the donation was made, it didn't come from the club, it came from the donald trump foundation, a charity. >> a two-part question about foundations. are all of them considered charities in the eye of the law and government, and is it okay to have a foundation that takes in by nature other people's money? >> the key thing to remember here is there are two kinds of foundations under tax law. there is a private foundation, which is a small charity and just serves for money to go in

and money to go out. there is not a lot of people doing charitable work, it's just a way for rich people to give their mona way. there is something called the public charity. that's what the clinton foundation is, for instance, the red cross, the american heart association. those are really big organizations which take money from the public and they do charitable work. they employ people and do things in the world to help people. so it's unusual for trump that, a, he would put no money of his own in, not since 2008, and that he would get other people to donate money that he gives away sort of under the impression that it's his money. >> the form of a statement from jason miller has reacted to your story. quote, in typical "washington post" fashion, they've gotten their facts wrong. it goes on to say there was not and couldn't be any intent or motive for the trump foundation to make any kind of payments. all foundation donations are reported to the irs. all donations are disclosed. mr. trump is busy and generous with his time.

he has paid hundreds of thousands of dollars to fund his foundation and other charitable causes. do you want to react to their reaction of your story this morning? >> sure. what we said in this story was it's true that all these donations are publicly disclosed, but the irs says there is a rule against what they call self-dealing. if you're a manager of a charity, as trump is for the charity foundation, you can't take money from the charity and use it to buy things for yourself or use it for your businesses. it's something you can't do as leader of a foundation. when we talked to tax experts about these foundations where they seemed to pay off his legal dealings, he said every year he did not engage in self-dealing every year. in those ways, although tax returns are public, he seems to not have acknowledged what his foundation apparently did. >> as i mentioned, the story is on the "washington post" website

tonight, and of course the paper version, new york attorney general, among others, looking at all of this. david farenthal from the post, thank you very much for being on the broadcast with us tonight. >> thank you. i want to show you a scene tonight in williamsburg in heavy rain. this is mike pence. and no, he was not wearing a shimmery blazer tonight, that's rainwater. look at the flags behind him and look at the crowd. heavy rain greeted him as he greeted the folks who waited a long time for this rally. we spoke to him just before it started, what turned out to be his last dry hours of the evening, and i started our conversation with him tonight asking him to react to this "washington post" story. governor, your reaction to what's been one of the ongoing stories today, this "washington post" story, the headline being "trump used $258,000 from his charity to settle legal problems." what is your reaction to that story?

>> well, i think what we found is that there is a number of factual errors in that story as there were in previous stories about the trump foundation. i'm confident they'll be able to address those and demonstrate that they fully complied with the law. i think the larger issue here, of course, is the clinton foundation. even this week, former president bill clinton confirmed on another network that he expected that large foreign donors to the clinton foundation were contributing perhaps in part to gain access, but he just wasn't worried about the state department doing anything wrong, i think was his phrase. i think with the pay to play politics that we see with tens of millions of dollars flowing into the clinton foundation from foreign governments, foreign donors while she was secretary of state, i think really is exactly the kind of politics the american people are tired of, and it's one of the reasons why i truly do believe our campaign is experiencing the kind of momentum that we are here in virginia and really all over the

country as we drive toward election day on november 8. >> to back up quick here for just a minute, do you know what the factual errors are that the campaign is alleging in the "washington post" story? >> well, i think the foundation will be able to lay those out. there were errors in the previous "washington post" stories, and, you know, look, you know me a while, brian. i strongly support a free and independent press. people are entitled to ask questions, and i'm sure the trump foundation and the trump family will continue to be able to answer those questions. >> our folks tell me it's been 55 days since mr. trump took questions in a press conference format. he still doesn't have traveling press on his plane. when are we going to get a chance to ask him some of these issues? >> well, i think donald trump answers questions with the media just about every day and has the media press corps traveling with him these days, brian. i think i've got a press corps on my plane and the vice

presidential campaign and we'll continue to promote that kind of transparency. we've got 49 days left in this election. the american people have a major choice to make, and the choice couldn't be clearer, whether we're going to continue down a path that is weak in america's place in the world, stifle the american economy, or whether we're going to turn around, go back, rebuild our military, reduce taxes, repeal obamacare and promote the kind of policies that will get this economy working for every american. >> governor, your roots in the republican party run very deep, as do those in the bush family and all republicans and republican americans. your opinion on 41% for hillary clinton? >> i heard that stat today, and our 41st president is boundless, but i respectfully disagree with his decision in this election. everywhere i go here in

virginia, campaigning across the country with donald trump and for donald trump, the american people are pining for change. they know we can be better. they know we can be more prosperous, we can be stronger. they look at a world that for all the world looks like it's spinning apart. you look at terrorist attacks on our own shores again this weekend, and in san bernardino, and in orlando, and they know we can have a stronger and safer america, we can have a more prosperous america. and i think that's why while some leaders in our party have a different viewpoint, i think more and more republicans, independents and democrats every day are being drawn to this campaign, and i have to tell you, i really do believe that we're on track for a great, great victory come november the 8th. >> let's talk about police work briefly, governor. we saw, i think, the very best of police work this past weekend from seaside park, new jersey, north to linden, east to new

york city and all around there. however, yet again this week, millions of people have been watching and reacting in horror to this video, the traffic stop and the police shooting of the 40-year-old in tulsa, oklahoma, terence crutcher. what was your reaction to this piece of video? >> on the first count, let me join you in really commending the first responders to the terror attacks this weekend, from minnesota where an off-duty officer was able to take down a terrorist attacker in a mall and clearly save lives, or whether there was swift police work that actually brought mr. rahami into custody within just less than 48 hours of the bombing attacks in new jersey and new york. i think the american people can be very proud of our law enforcement community and their efforts in this regard. and obviously, when another incident like this takes place, we fully support a thorough investigation of what took place.

you know, the truth of the matter is that police officers are human beings and they make mistakes. and where mistakes are made, they should be held to the strictest account. but what i find offensive is when hillary clinton and others refer to implicit bias or institutional bias within the ranks of our law enforcement community broadly. the men and women who serve in law enforcement in this country, brian, whether they be white or african-american or latino, hispanic or asian, the men and women are dedicated to the security and safety of our families. they know that donald trump will be the kind of president that stands with them. i think that's why the 330,000-member fraternal order of police this last weekend endorsed donald trump as the next president of the united states. i'm proud of our law enforcement community. we stand strongly with them. obviously, when mistakes are

made and tragedy occurs, they should be fully investigated. but enough already of this reference to law enforcement and institutional or implicit bias. donald trump and i believe our law enforcement officers, men and women of every race, creed and color are truly the best of us. your visit in dubuque took to name calling, and i believe you said that was for the other party. a brief list of lying ted and jeb and pocahontas. largely name-calling is a big factor that got donald trump to where he is today. is that not dicey territory rhetorically for you? >> look, i couldn't be more honored to be standing with donald trump in this election

and working every day to elect a president who will make america great again. but brian, he and i have different styles. he's new york, i'm indiana. he's a larger than life charismatic leader and i balance the ticket, as i said in our convention. despite our different styles, our goals are just the same. both of us believe with the right leadership in the white house, we can have america standing tall on the world stage, we can rebuild our military, we can take on those who threaten our freedom and threaten our people. we can get taxes lower, get rid of obamacare, good trade deals, stronger energy. all of those reasons are why this campaign has a great momentum, why we sense it in new jersey and in this country, and i'm going to see to it that this man is the next president of the united states. >> governor mike pence of

indiana working to make donald trump the next president of the united states. thank you for talking to us at this time. >> thank you, brian. >> perhaps putting too fine a point on it, but it does show the coverage we bring to you. trump and pence are on the aircraft, unlike donald trump who are not on the aircraft but follow the candidate. our first break tonight. when we come back, what about the clinton campaign? for that matter, what about the candidate on this day with the debate looming? that and more when we come back.

as a supervisor at pg&e, it's my job to protect public safety, keeping the power lines clear, while also protecting the environment. the natural world is a beautiful thing, the work that we do helps us protect it. public education is definitely a big part of our job, to teach our customers about the best type of trees to plant around the power lines. we want to keep the power on for our customers. we want to keep our community safe. this is our community, this is where we live. we need to make sure that we have a beautiful place for our children to live. together, we're building a better california.

let's talk about the state of this race as the campaign enters the 11th hour. with us tonight as she often is, msnbc political analyst nicole wallace, coordinator in the bush white house. also the chair of the university of african-american studies. thank you for being here with us at our table tonight. nicole, first question to you. if you're a hillary clinton supporter, you hear she's down for the day, off the schedule, no events, apparently just debate prep. how does a campaign arrive at that decision? are you fighting the candidate? are you fighting the campaign team? how does that work? >> it might be both, but she woke to our poll this morning that had her up at 5:00. she's still in a very tight race in the battleground states. i don't think they would describe themselves with a comfortable lead by any means. but the stakes are high for her

in this debate, and debate prep is not sething you can sneak in in 90 minutes. people play the opponent and it takes a few minutes for everybody to get in character and go over different topics. the audience who will watch next week's debate will probably be the largest single audience that either candidate will be in front of for the entire campaign cycle. >> i want you to listen to something trump said in a north carolina town with a population of fewer than 1,000, and he went into a somewhat familiar riff if you've seen his previous speeches. let's listen in. >> african-american communities are absolutely in the worst shape that they've ever been in before, ever, ever, ever. you take a look at the inner cities. you get no education, you get no jobs, you get shot walking down the street. honestly, places like

afghanistan are safer than some of our inner cities. >> so he went there again, professor. what do you make of it? >> i just had a big sigh. in some ways he's trafficking in a host of stereotypes. trading on what might be a modicum of truth. >> you did not get shot on your way here tonight? >> no, but i don't want to downplay the fact that there are portions of black communities that are in desperate, desperate times. and so -- but what he's doing in that moment is in some ways playing on, right, a set of stereotypes that actually informs the population that he's actually speaking to. he's not really speaking to african-americans, he's speaking to the white voters that he wants to consolidate in the next couple days. >> to think he's not a racist. >> to think he's not a racist. >> to entice them who might see him in that view. >> of course. we're not these rational

political actors. >> how do you counter it if you're running the clinton campaign? >> you have to actually speak to the issues. she hasn't been speaking to those issues directly, at least most of the summer. in my view she's been trying to court disassociate republicans. we've seen it in african-american millennials. they're not excited about her. now we're grappling with the fact that terence crutcher has just been killed in oklahoma. we're grappling with the fact that another officer was killed in north carolina. we have to talk directly with african-americans in this country and not treat them as

cattle headed to the polls. >> nicole, when you hear that donald trump gives a rally in a north carolina town of fewer than a thousand people, with your eyes, do you automatically go to, well, that's not a local matter. >> listen, there is no rhyme or reason to his map. we theorize that he closes his eyes and throws a dart. the memo that went out to clinton world today was from that campaign's campaign manager saying, stay calm, everything is fine. but that will be a contested state, and i think the point that you make is so important. donald trump really is speaking to voters that are gettable. i mean, people, i think, underestimate his political sophistication. this lesson is really the most cynical of all because he's not actually speaking to or about what he's saying. he's speaking to suburban women who may be uncomfortable or

embarrassed about some of his more inflammatory statements. >> this is an important point. we've been talking about the supporters of donald trump as being those high school graduate working class white folks, right? when what we're really seeing now is a consolidation of a number of different kinds of folks who are supporting trump. this kind of whistle is almost like a foghorn. it's not really a whistle. in this way he's trying to say, i'm not a racist, you can support me. i'm not a racist, you won't look like a racist if you support me, and that has nothing to do with african-americans. >> we'll take a break and get to what the president did today in new york. [ clock ticking ]

time. you only have so much. that's why we wanna make sure you won't have to wait on hold. and you won't have to guess when we'll turn up. because after all... we should fit into your life. [ laughing ] not the other way around. [ clock ticking ]

last thing before we go here tonight, president obama spoke in the united nations general assembly for the eighth and final time as president. and because the green marble backdrop never changes, it offers a stark look of how the job as the presidency, and people seem to want it so badly, changes people over the years. he first spoke to the gathering seven years ago almost to the day, a visibly younger man. his remarks today were tough on america's enemies and came four dozen days before america picks the leader who will appear at that gathering a year from now. >> i believe that at this moment, we all face a choice.

we can choose to press forward with a better model of cooperation and integration, or we can retreat into a world sharply divided and ultimately in conflict along age-old lines of nation and tribe and race and religion. i want to suggest to you today that we must go forward and not backward. >> one very last thing about that green marble backdrop, it does not jibe with donald trump's aesthetic. four years ago he tweeted, the cheap 12-inch square marble tiles behind speaker at un always bothered me. ly replace with beautiful large marble slabs if they ask me. as of now there has been no request. we hope you will join us at the same hour tomorrow evening. i'm brian williams in new york.

good night, everybody. less than a week. let's play "hardball". >> good evening. i'm chris matthews in washington. well, it's six days now to the first debate between hillary clinton and donald trump, and terrorism is on the minds of many. in response to this weekend's terror attacks in new york, new jersey, and minnesota, donald trump has called for knocking the hell out of isis, profiling people here in the usa, and severely limiting immigration. also treating terror suspects as, as he put it, enemy combatants. for her part, hillary clinton called for better intelligence gathering, building trust between law enforcement and the muslim community here, and smashing isis strongholds in the middle east.

smashing them. anyway, today the country's current commander in chief gave his final speech to the u.n. general assembly. president obama never mentioned trump by name, but it was clear whom he was talking about when he warned of a crude populism gathering around the world. let's watch the president. >> today, a nation ringed by walls would only imprison itself. we must reject any forms of fundamentalism or racism. instead, we need to embrace the tolerance that results from respect of all human beings. in europe, in the united states, you see people wrestle with concerns about immigration and changing demographics and suggesting that somehow, people who look different are corrupting the character of our countries. i do not believe progress is possible if our desire to preserve our identities gives way to an impulse to dehumanize or dominate another group. >> well, with donald trump blamed president obama and

hillary clinton for the rise of isis. today he said, clinton's time as secretary of state, quote, unleashed this monstrous evil upon us. he also blamed our current immigration policies. >> these attacks were made possible because of our extremely open immigration system, which fails to properly vet and screen the individuals or families coming into our country. it's just a plain fact that our current immigration system makes no real attempt to determine the views of the people entering our country. we have no idea who they are, what they think. isis is torturing, murdering, executing, and exterminating people in a campaign of genocide. and what is hillary clinton suggesting? what is she suggesting? you know what she's -- let's let more people come in. >> well, clinton today was off the campaign trail. her campaign said she held a conference call in the morning with her nasa security advisers to discuss this weekend's attack.

anyway, yesterday, hillary clinton slammed donald trump for his rhetoric, which she said was helping isis recruit fighters. helping isis recruit. let's watch her. >> i don't want to speculate, but here's what we know. and i think it's important for voters to hear this and weigh it in making their choice in november. we know that a lot of the rhetoric we've heard from donald trump has been seized on by terrorists, in particular, isis. because they are looking to make this into a war against islam. >> well, donald trump fired back against that charge today. let's watch. >> her claim that my opposition to radical islamic terrorism is a recruiting tool. what the -- how does that have to do with -- i'm being tough. why is that a recruiting -- i'm much tougher than her on this problem, this horrible situation. because i'm tough, it's a recruiting tool? it demonstrates a level of

ignorance about the terror threat that really is disqualifying for a person seeking the presidency. >> well, how will trump's tough talk on terrorism play with voters? david corn is washington bureau chief for mother jones and an msnbc political analyst. jay newton smalls is washington correspondent for "time" magazine. and boris epshteyn is senior manager to the trump campaign. i know you're with trump and speaking for him, but this argument that somehow trump's rhetoric is galvanizing our opposition against us, where do you stand on that? >> no one's buying that, chris. you have to look at the facts, okay? hillary clinton was secretary of state from 2009 to 2013. under her watch, isis truly grew. it was a failed entity beforehand, under a different name. it became isis under her watch. 80% of people who have been killed by isis have done so since she was secretary of state. and isis now is in about 20 countries. isis has become a global threat under hillary clinton. and this is a really sad way for her to try to pivot from this when she knows she doesn't have a leg to stand on.

again, libya became a failed state on her watch. syria, iraq, egypt, of all resulted in some levels of chaos. although egypt after two revolutions is out of it, but all on her watch. hillary clinton was a terrible secretary of state. and she's trying to run on a record that simply doesn't exist. >> that's not going to help around here, those kind of comments. you don't generalize. here's the question. trump's running as mr. tough. he's running as the guy who's gong to be tougher on the enemy and he's going to somehow discern who the terrorists are before they become terrorists. this guy involved in the new york thing, the suspect, apparently came here, he was a naturalized american citizen. he wanted to become a good american, by all estimates. and then somehow became radicalized on troops to pakistan and afghanistan. my question is, how do you discern the enemy that emerges in his or her own soul? >> well, you can't. because he came over when he was 7. and nothing that trump has said about profiling would make a difference. and i have to say this --

>> he says you won't -- >> he wants to know what ideas i have. you're right, at 7 years old, he department have any particularly radical ideas. >> and boris just said something that makes no sense. we had malcolm nance on this network earlier today, and we do know that isis is using trump's rhetoric as a recruiting tool. and we had boris come on and say, we all know that's not true. he's spinning, doesn't care about the facts. and we have people on who are experts, and they say the exact opposite of what boris just told our audience. >> may i respond, chris? >> of course. >> well, listen, david, to your point, i disagree with malcolm. listen, may have -- >> he just said no one believes it. >> sure, fine. but we know that the threat of isis has come long before mr. trump ran for president. we know that radical islamic jihadism, radical islamic terrorism came long before. and in terms of what mr. trump wants to do, making sure people who come into this country don't want to hurt it.

>> how would you have stopped this rahami from coming into this country? >> he did came when he was 7 years old. he came with his family, look at the family, look at their backgrounds. >> what would you have found? >> that's one -- >> what would you have found? >> i don't know. we didn't have the opportunity to look. >> the father called the son a terrorist. the father -- whatever the father, whether he's dealing in hyperbole, the father was not part of some terrorist plot. >> i'm not hear to talk about the specific father. >> well, you're using this case as an example of terrorism that would have been stopped had your guy been president, right? >> if mr. trump were president, what we would do is make sure people who are coming into this country do not want to hurt this country. >> he's already been here. what do you do with naturalized -- boris, you're on this show to answer a question. what would you do to a naturalized american who you thought might be harboring dangerous thoughts? we have a free country.

someone's allowed to go online and watch whatever they want. what you can't do is commit crimes. >> but you can have a conspiracy to commit crimes. you can say watching videos who are teaching you how to build bombs and discussing building bombs, and being in chat rooms is conspiracy to commit terrorism. and that is something that is a crime. >> imagine putting someone in jail for going online. >> conspiracy to commit terrorism? i would be happy to do so. >> so i spent much of today on capitol hill talking to senators about this, from the intelligence committee and the homeland security committee, and they say there are troubling signs that were missed. the fbi should have taken the father's warning a little more serious. the fact that he went to quetta in pakistan, quetta really is the hotbed of terrorism, so it's like going to -- >> where's the crime begin? >> no, you're right. if there's not -- it's very hard, and this is something that congress is going to have to look at, the fbi is going to look at to say, if they're monitoring all of his

communications, they saw no reason to arrest him. they saw no reason to detain him. how do you stop somebody? >> here's the problem. boris, here's the problem. suppose some kids after a couple beers one night or for fun in the dormitory say, let's look up this bomb-making thing they have online. see how it works. you going to take those kids and put them in jail? >> no, you're going to investigate their behavior -- >> you would? >> and make sure they don't mean to go and hurt americans, then nothing happens. but if it's part of a larger plot or conspiracy, of course you have to run down -- that's a lead. >> you would send the fbi around to interview kids who check out something online? you would do it, at that stage? >> if those kids are looking at bomb-making material? i think most of america would want that checked out. >> maybe they're just curious. where do we draw the line in a free society? >> you draw the line in making sure people don't build bombs. >> he said the other day, i won't spy on americans. what boris is talking about is spying on millions of americans -- >> no, it's not. >> wait a second, boris, you had your turn. he's going to be tough on isis? we have no idea what his plans are. he said he's going to fire the

generals but first ask them to give him a plan in 30 days. all you get out of donald trump is talk, no policies, inconsistency -- >> let me go to jay on this. if we can stop crimes, a husband shoots his wife, wife shoots the husband, somebody does something like that, a kid robs a gas station, if we can stop crimes because we knew they were going to commit the crime, we would haven't a crime problem. >> but, chris, those are lone wolf crimes. these are crimes where people need to be part of a group. >> we're not sure they are. >> he had travel. he had relationships. he had contacts. these are warning signs. >> but they're not illegal. >> they're not illegal -- >> this is a really -- >> okay, i just don't think that -- i understand the need to get tough and the requirement politically to say you're tougher than the other person. what trump has to do and you have to do is explain exactly how you, within the limits of our constitution, would protect people's rights, and also, reduce the amount of terrorism. now, this terrorism in this country is not regular. it's not frequent.

it occurs. and i wonder whether you can actually stomp out terrorism. i don't think you can stomp it out, do you? >> if you go from san bernardino to orlando -- >> do you think you can stomp out terrorism? is that what you're saying? >> you're looking at a pattern that's picking up. >> are you saying every terrorist act could have been prevented? >> what i'm saying to you is we can do a better job of preventing it if we looked into these people. look at san bernardino. those were very strong warning signs there and those people, the wife especially -- >> we're always saying -- >> illegal -- >> there was no -- i mean, san bernardino was a husband and wife and those are very privileged communications. those are very, very hard to wiretap, frankly. and a lot of -- >> but facebook is not -- >> can i please finish? a lot of the stuff, if it's a conspiracy like it was in france, where you have 15, 20 people, they're communicating all over the place, that is something that is absolutely preventable, and you talk to experts in the united states, that's something that's hard to happen here because it's such a huge mass conspiracy, and we do wiretap enormously. but if it's something where it's one person logging on -- >> well, ft. hood, orlando --

>> yeah, orlando, these are lone wolf. lone wolf attacks are almost impossible to prevent. >> i don't know if it's presumption, you're here to support trump, but common sense is also on this table. how do you stop every case in a free society, if somebody decides -- someone is deciding to commit a crime? individuals -- you talk about lone wolf. someone who says, i'm mad at this country. my life is not so happy. so i'm going to do something that shows my attitude to this country in a violent way. you can't stop that, can you? >> chris, i disagree with the premise of a lone wolf. these people are not lone wolves. they're all tied by an ideology. in this case, they're all tied to isis in one way or another. >> they have facebook postings, which made it clear that -- >> donald trump attacks hillary clinton -- >> you're just yelling over me. >> -- and the president for saying that we have to fight the isis narrative, right? he just said, we've got to fight the ideology. >> we've got to fight the people -- the ideology -- >> without a single plan. do you have a plan? >> okay, i don't think -- i

think we've got to get -- >> -- access to social media. >> i don't think it's a legal conspiracy in our system, boris, if somebody gets something on line, they're inspired by it in a negative way, in a violent way, i don't think that's a conspiracy. >> as an attorney, i'll tell you, if they have one conversation about planning to commit a crime, that's a conspiracy right there. >> okay, okay, that gets very close to being a police state. thank you very much, jane newton-small and boris epshteyn. coming up, this sunday, a special edition of "hardball" here at a special time as we get ready for the first presidential debate on monday. join me at 8:00 eastern sunday, debate eve. we'll be here. coming up, new information on the suspect who set off bombs in new york and new jersey two years ago. the fbi investigated rahami after discovering his father yelled "you're a terrorist." so why wasn't he stopped then?

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i'm melissa rehburger on rahami appeared on the radar as far back as august of 2014. rahami's father called his son a terrorist. we also learned today that rahami was carrying a notebook that included his thinking and described his rambling thoughts on leader anwar al-ahlaki prior to the terror bombing. today they're filing charges on

him for the bombing, and we're with correspondent pete williams. the formal charges mean what, they're just proceeding here? >> right, they're going to be filing in both new york and new jersey and there is lots of new detail in the charges tonight, chris. the federal government said that rahami began ordering materials to build bombs in june on e-bay using his own name. they say two days before the bombings in new york, he recorded a cell phone video recorded by a family member showing him lighting something in a cylinder in a backyard at or near the home. 12 of his fingerprints were found on the 27th street bomb, that's the unexploded pressure cooker bomb and prints were also found on materials with the elizabeth, new jersey bomb that was set off just yesterday. then they say as far as this notebook that was found that he was carrying, it said he included any statements such as this. "you continue your slaughter

against the hadin whether it be syria or palestine." he praises the army soldier who shot his fellow soldiers at ft. hood, texas and killed 14 people, and he praises bin laden and al-ahlaki, and he closes with this. in shalloh, meaning god willing, the sound of bombs will be heard in the streets, gunshots to your police, gunshots to your oppression. he's charged with setting off weapons of mass destruction and bombing a public place. >> you may not have heard the somewhat partisan argument from someone in the trump campaign arguing that we should be intervening in these cases long before we had the kind of evidence you're talking about. is that feasible? can you go after somebody because they traveled someplace in pakistan? can you arrest someone for watching something on the internet about al-ahlaki?

>> none of those things are crimes, but here's the issue that you talked about earlier. so in 2014, a neighbor told the police that during a domestic violence attack in which rahami was accused of stabbing his brother in the leg, while all that was going on, a neighbor said she heard rahami's father say, you're a terrorist, get out of the house. so the police told the fbi, the fbi talked to him. he said, no, i was angry, i didn't mean it. i just said it in the heat of the moment, i don't think he's a terrorist. nonetheless, the fbi said they did look at their databases, interviewed family and friends and concluded he wasn't a terrorist. talked to the father one more time. he said, yep, i was mad and didn't mean it. then he did travel to afghanistan and pakistan to some pretty sketchy areas, and the government says u.s. citizens

can go there, but they're subject to an examination when they come back. he says, of course, he went overseas, he got married. he was trying to get his wife back here, and of course he's from afghanistan. i'm sure some people will say, and i'm beginning to hear members of congress saying, well, was enough attention paid here? there's nothing here that would have put him under arrest. and even if he was on a watch list, it would have meant they paid a little more attention to him when he traveled. i wouldn't believe that the information i just sketched out would qualify him for the no-fly list. it is always a problem. >> you've done it the way i thought it was. thank you, pete williams. when we return, my diary of where we are tonight.

election diary, election 2016. hillary clinton took much of today off, presumably to sharpen herself for the big night. trump said she took date off because, quote, she needs the rest. trump is not the first presidential debater to try to get in the other guy's ear. when kenne went against nixon, he acted like he never rattled the guy. they knew each other pretty well, had in fact been friends early on. nixon expected a duel between old colleagues. kennedy came on like a yankee executioner. i don't think nixon ever got over it. romney talked down to president obama, and that's why romney won the first debate.

when they have to go face to face, who will have themselves convinced they are the most secure person who will seem in command, who will radiate strength, because this is one time there will be no applause in the success. what will signal who wins is the poise of the candidates themselves. the one who sweats loses, the one who smiles, wins. as the great winston churchill puts it, i like a man who grins when he fights. that's "hardball." see you tomorrow night at 7:00 eastern. until then.

>> they're bringing in, in many cases, this is cancer from within. >> donald trump's descent into darkness continues. >> we want to make sure we are only admitting people into our country who love our country. >> tonight, filmmaker ken burns on what he sees when donald trump speaks, and the dangerous logic behind the trump campaign. >> if we had a bowl of skittles on this table and 3 of the 1,000 in there were poisonous, would you take from the bowl? >> plus if you thought the donald trump charity looked like a slush fund before, wait until you hear the latest from "the washington post." then hillary clinton on the shocking tulsa shooting. >> maybe i can, by speaking directly to white people, say look, this is not who we are.